deer bag limit reduction region 5

[Schmaus]

I don't know if anyone else has heard of this but... I think next year the bag limit for mule deer bucks is going to be reduced to 1 in region 5. The reason that I know this is that I just signed a petition to stop it. At this time I do not have all the details but I will try and get them and post again. I think it has something to do with the guide/outfitters in the area wanting more animals.

[Steeleco]

Schmaus if you find more info and post a link for a letter campaign, I'd be willing to scrap for that. I've only hunted there a few times but, I'm fed up with all the different special interest groups wanting more of a share for themselves.

[stanway]

Schmaus if you find more info and post a link for a letter campaign, I'd be willing to scrap for that. I've only hunted there a few times but, I'm fed up with all the different special interest groups wanting more of a share for themselves. Here, here David. I am with you 110%. I have recently signed another petition which is circulating from a MP in Manitoba to have hunting and fishing put in the constitution for ALL Canadians. Believe it or not, natives have it in there, but we do not. The sad thing is that it is not getting any better out there. Some of these 'special interest groups' seem to want to create their own exclusive industry.

[maddawg]

Here, here David. I am with you 110%. I have recently signed another petition which is circulating from a MP in Manitoba to have hunting and fishing put in the constitution for ALL Canadians. Believe it or not, natives have it in there, but we do not. The sad thing is that it is not getting any better out there. Some of these 'special interest groups' seem to want to create their own exclusive industry.

FYI Natives (First Nations) are not a Special Interest group and should have hunting and fishing rights under the constitution for a whole plethora of reasons of which I wont get into on this forum.

[stanway]

FYI Natives (First Nations) are not a Special Interest group and should have hunting and fishing rights under the constitution for a whole plethora of reasons of which I wont get into on this forum. My apologies. I was not referring (intending) First Nations people are the Special Interest groups. By special interest groups I was meaning the Guide Outfitters (and other anti-hunting groups) who are trying to get all hunting funneled through them through some of these proposals you see coming forth. I happen to agree that hunting and fishing rights be protected for First Nations people. I feel that the rest of us Canadians need to do the same to protect our rights and heritage before this or future governments legislate them away. Again, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. James

[kutenay]

I am a native born Canadian of pioneer ancestry and I recognize ONE AND ONLY ONE nation north of the 49th parallel. I do not accept any special rights for ANY group for any reason and I never will. As far as I am concerned, there is far too much bulls**t about "rights" for certain groups in Canada today and not enough concern for responsibilities.

I have met people here in B.C. and in Alberta, who have "status" under the current Trudeau constitution, a vile document, and they are of largely European ancestry, their ancestors came here long after mine did, yet, they have "rights" superior to mine in respect of hunting, fishing and so forth. This is institutionalized racism, plain and simple and it should be stopped now. Canada MUST be a nation based on equality, anything less is simply not acceptable.

[Steeleco]

While we are all entiteled to an opinion, lets not turn this thread into an "US vs Them" one. Lets use our anger to fight the government not each other.

Play nice!!

[mainland hunter]

agreed kutney, good post. i would like to sign that petition as well. with hunter numbers dwindling decreasing public access to hunting opportunities in favor of the outfitters gives even less reason for the avg. joe to pick up the sport. with less people hunting theres less support for hunting which could later hurt the outfitters themselves. although i do have a lot of respect for the work and committment that goes with running a guiding service therre has to be as much opportuntiy for us who can never afford to go on guided trips

[swamper]

At this point in time it is the Cariboo Chilcotin Guide Outfitters that are proposing the reduction in the Buck Bag Limit, not the GOAB. There is a small core group here in the Cariboo that are spearheading this proposal. There are a couple of other issues also a stake here, one being restricting certain areas to guide only hunting, which only benefits the guide outfitters with their high paying European and Amercican hunters. As tax paying Canadian citizens we should have the right to hunt on any crown land. As for the reduction in the bag limit, what a crock, they say that if we reduce the limit to one that a lot of hunters will choose to only shoot the bigger bucks and pass on the smaller "meat" bucks allowing them to grow into Class "4" bucks, (4 point or better). They feel that this will increase the number of Class 4 bucks in the region and they will be able to capitalize on this by marketing the region as a trophy mule deer area. These people are only looking to line their own pockets.

Please sign all three petitions if you happen to see them.

[kutenay]

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am opposed to privilege, period, not to any specific group, including Aboriginals. My family, on my mother's side, were at Port Royal, circa 1627; my father's (and mine) ancestors were in Pennsylvania from about 1650 and came to B.C. in 1870. I DO NOT think that this gives me one iota of "right" over someone who came here from wherever and then became a legal Canadian citizen.

I detest and deplore any form of discrimination based on who your family is/were, how long they/you have been here and what your ethnicity/religion/place of origin is. I believe in Canada, "one country, my country and your country"*.....especially at this sacred time of year..........

* Rt. Hon. John George Diefenbaker, Prime Minister of Canada.

[oldtimer]

Swamper stated it perfectly. The guide outfitters are looking to line their pockets at our expense. There have been public meetings here in Quesnel opposing this. I don't know about the rest of you but I hunt for the enjoyment of being outdoors with family and friends and FOR THE MEAT. the guide outfitters are complaining that there aren't enough breeding bucks ( class 4 ) ( 4 point ).
Because I hunt with a bow if Willy or Swamper says " BUCK " I don't question how many friggin points. This will be a big issue guys.
MIKE

[Marc]

I seem to remember seeing quite a few fawns with the doe's in region 5 so how can there not be enough bucks to breed? Like it's been said it all comes down to the all mighty dollar. If there isn't enought bucks reduce the number of tags issued to guides. You don't hear the resident hunter complaining about not enough trophy animals out there to hunt.:mrgreen:

Marc.

[maddawg]

My apologies. I was not referring (intending) First Nations people are the Special Interest groups. By special interest groups I was meaning the Guide Outfitters (and other anti-hunting groups) who are trying to get all hunting funneled through them through some of these proposals you see coming forth. I happen to agree that hunting and fishing rights be protected for First Nations people. I feel that the rest of us Canadians need to do the same to protect our rights and heritage before this or future governments legislate them away. Again, I am sorry for the misunderstanding. James

Thanks Bubba - means a bunch.

[kutenay]

I think that it is time that we eliminated ALL non-resident "alien" hunting in B.C. and if the foreign-owned Guide/Outfitters don't like this, too bleeping bad! How many here are aware that Canadians can NOT hunt in Kluane National Park, yet, the very rich Americans who support GW Bush in his stance against our softwood exports to their country CAN hunt there by hiring Aboriginal guides. Is this fair, is this right, whose country is this?????

Should a Canadian have to pay an Aboriginal "outfitter" the same amount of money to hunt Dall's Sheep in Kluane that a Yank or other foreigner would pay???? When will we grow a backbone and stand tall for Canada and OUR rights????

[Jimbo]

I have been hunting in 5-02 for more than 25 years and there are more 4x3 and 4x4 bucks now than at any other time. Relentless logging for pine beetle and a series of mild winters (by local standards) have created a good situation for us, in spite of a two buck limit during this period.

[oldtimer]

I went out in 5-02 yesterday to see if I could get my doe draw with my bow. In 4 hours saw 16 friggin deer not counting all the ones I saw on private land ( farms ) There is no shortage of animals !!! No I didn't get one !! couldn't sneak quietly enough . Mike

[Steeleco]

I just read a copy of Jacques Drisdelle's (Pres Reg 5 BCWF) and it was scary what he had to say, what worries me is some of the other things they (the CCGOA that is) have propsed to the government.


1 That all general open seasons for all wildlife species be suspended
2 Resident hunters be placed on Limited Hunting Entires for all species of wildlife in all regions of the province
3 Restrict resident hunter's access to crown land
4 If resident hunters fail to harvest their Annual Allowable Harvest, that the surplus be then allocated to the guides
5 Once this surplus is passed on to the Guides, the surplus numbers remain in the hands of the guides.

These guys need to be stopped, I send Mr Drisdelle an e-mail looking for access to the petition for those of us outside reg 5. I can't find a copy to sign, so hopefully all the members in Reg 5 will.

[mainland hunter]

wow, thats from the BCWF. i thought they were here to support and sustain resident hunting opportunities. that is scary. i think alot of their dollars come from us.

[Steeleco]

NO!!! hold up, he's the President of the Reg 5 BCWF area, he and the BCWF are OPPOSED to the ideas proposed by the Cariboo guides CCGOA. Sorry If I mislead anyone. I'm trying to get a copy to paste here for all to read, I can't type that much. :-(

[blindbob]

email:jacques@bccf.com for more info on this. This is getting like England were only the rich and gentry can hunt. Then there will be no need to own firearms.

[mainland hunter]

thanks for the clear-up

[Steeleco]

email:jacques@bccf.com for more info on this. This is getting like England were only the rich and gentry can hunt. Then there will be no need to own firearms.

I sent him and e-mail this afternoon, he's already replied and sent me a map of the area the CCGOA want to take over. Lots of ranch land they want exclusive rights to. He tells me the petition is running till Dec 1, it's just too bad we can't sign it down here in the lower mainland as I'm sure many of us have hunted Reg 5 at least once. Mostly I want to help put a stop to these small groups making this province like the UK.

[kutenay]

Again, why should guide/outfitters, especially foreign-owned ones even exist here in B.C.? There are not enouigh Bighorns, Kootenay Moose, Dall's Sheep and so forth to provide regular open seasons for we residents who OWN this wildlife, so, why should there be ANY hunting for non-residents, especially non-Canadians?

Instead of putting resident hunters on L.E.H. for every species and restricting our access to OUR land, it's not the "Crown's" land, it belongs to US, I favour an immediate and permanent elimination of ALL non-resident alien hunting in B.C. I would like to see some of the game saved thereby made available to our fellow Canucks from other provinces by permit and no stupid guide regulations should apply here.

It would be VERY interesting to find out how many of the Guide-Outfitter companies behind this proposal are owned, completely or partly, by Americans. This is simply not acceptable and must be changed now; the government should simply expropriate these outfits and stop this so-call business which is ripping off B.C. hunters.

[Fred]

Instead of putting resident hunters on L.E.H. for every species and restricting our access to OUR land, it's not the "Crown's" land, it belongs to US, I favour an immediate and permanent elimination of ALL non-resident alien hunting in B.C. I would like to see some of the game saved thereby made available to our fellow Canucks from other provinces by permit and no stupid guide regulations should apply here.

This is the "common law" agrguement again. I have been pounding the pulpit,so to speak, and no one wants to hear it. If we went back to common law and it's penilties there would be a lot fewer problems,IMO. Fred

[Mooseman]

I just read a copy of Jacques Drisdelle's (Pres Reg 5 BCWF) and it was scary what he had to say, what worries me is some of the other things they (the CCGOA that is) have propsed to the government.


1 That all general open seasons for all wildlife species be suspended
2 Resident hunters be placed on Limited Hunting Entires for all species of wildlife in all regions of the province
3 Restrict resident hunter's access to crown land
4 If resident hunters fail to harvest their Annual Allowable Harvest, that the surplus be then allocated to the guides
5 Once this surplus is passed on to the Guides, the surplus numbers remain in the hands of the guides.

These guys need to be stopped, I send Mr Drisdelle an e-mail looking for access to the petition for those of us outside reg 5. I can't find a copy to sign, so hopefully all the members in Reg 5 will.

Hi,
I am a Canadian citizen and BC resident Guide Outfitter and actually most of us are regular home boys. I know that makes us a little less hateable. Sorry about that.
The information send out by the BCWF and here in your post is mostly not true.
If you are interested in the truth I would be happy to pass on the information I have to anyone interested.

Further more would I suggest to "huntingbc.ca" to perhaps contact the GOABC at info@goabc.org and ask them for the facts. That way you will prevent people arguing over "false demands" that had never been made and we could perhaps discuss the reccommendations that the CCGOA really made.

Just an idea from an Guide Outfitter that loves hunting Reg. 5 for deer as a resident too.

[Steeleco]

Fair argument Mooseman, I'd like to see both sides. But at the end of the day which of the truths does the guys like us in the middle end up believing.

At the end of the day I would like the freedoms tomorrow for our kids that we have today. Sometimes the almighty buck just doesn't matter.

[Mooseman]

You're absolutely correct. I got two small boys that (hopefully) keep their interest in hunting and can then enjoy this fantastic province we call home just like we do or better.

I admit that there are some guide outfitters out there that are no good and give every other one a bad reputation but I also know some resident hunters that you would not want to use for the hunter of the year award either.
The way not to do it though is by name calling and finger pointing. We all need to respect each other since non of us is going away and we all have the well being of the game at heart. We need to recognize problems in time and discuss them in order to arrive at solutions that will have the animals interest in mind. Because without them and the fish we would all be golfing :cry:

I have a response from the GOABC on PDF file and am more then happy to email it to anyone that would like to have it. My email address is:
michael@going-fishing.com (michael@going-fishing.com)

[Steeleco]

Are you allowed to say the "G" word on a hunting forum :shock::shock: I tried to find something online to refute the BCWF claims but thus far have been unable.

E-mail sent for your info. Mooseman Thanks.

It only takes a few to tar a bunch, but for me to sit back and trust "the other guy" to look after me isn't going to happen, especially when it comes to hunting and the outdoors. The last thing I want to do is make enemies, but I'm not prepared to sit on my thumbs either. ;)

There's enough of this Beautiful province for all!!

[Mooseman]

Sorry about the "G" word. I am sure I'll never have to mention it again.

I have not yet received an email from you!? Did you send it to michael@going-fishing.com ? Or did you send one to the info@goabc.org ? The last one is not me I hope you know and they will answer you early next week. If you don't get a fast response let me know. Then I'll see what I can do for you and the other interested people here. I don't know if you will find any information on the subject on the net anywhere. If you do please let me know!

No one should be sitting on their thumbs when it is about something you care about. That is why I posted here as well.

[Steeleco]

I sent one to you shortly ago and to the GOABC this morning. I expect being a Saturday that the latter will be back Monday. Fair enough

[houndogger]

I for one have never hunted in region 5 for deer just cats. Will be heading up for the late season archery for deer and to run some cats in dec.

I did put in for a dall sheep and goat in region 6 around moon lake. Hunted hard for ten days and never seen a legal ram. Could see 6 other hunting camps in a very small area. Talked to the outfitter there and asked him why they gave out so manylehs draws? 25 residents 4 for the outfitter. He said that is what BCWF wants lots of tags. I for one would rather have less tags and higher odds of getting drawn. At least when drawn you would see more legal animals that way in my oppion.

[Mooseman]

@ Steleco - Got it. Answer is already on the way back!

@ Houndogger - Sorry you didn't get your ram. It would be nice to have more rams up there!

[oldtimer]

Mooseman---- Is it not true that the CCGOA has asked for all deer that we don't take. ie. I am allowed two in region 5 , if I only take one, as I understand it the CCGOA wants my one next year and every year thereafter. Is this true yes or no.

[Mooseman]

Hi Oldtimer,
I don't have the document! Therefore I don't have the answer to your question. I am asking for further information my self on this since I look at this as a resident loving to hunt deer in Reg 5 as well. And I would like to have answers for you.

Here is what I do know:
The CCGOA has recommended to reduce the bag limit from two (2) to one (1) buck per year in Reg. 5.
That and other rules are valid for resident and non-resident hunters a like.

Perhaps as I mentioned before the "huntingbc" community as a whole can make up a list of questions and mail them to info@goabc.org . That way we could discuss the subjects at hand and not what is true and what not.

[Mooseman]

Oldtimer - I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is an outfitter in the Chilcotin. Since I am in Reg. 7 my knowlege for Reg. 5 is very limited. But by what he told me the answer to your question is a simple NO.

When I find out more, I will let you know.

[shortroot]

As a resident of region 5 I don't want to see the 2 deer bag limit reduced, but rather some changes to hunting seasons, to keep people from overlapping the seasons and taking 2 deer on the same trip.

As for allocating unused tags to guideoutfitters, I don't believe they have a qouta on deer, therefore it sounds like a bogus demand as they can shoot as many as they can book right now. That is, unless everything went to LEH and then it would make sense from their perspective, bs from my pov, but from their business view it would make perfect sense.

[Mooseman]

shortroot- That's the point people need to discuss here !!!!

As for the comment to put everything to LEH. That was not asked for. That was one of the points invented by BCWF to get people up in arms.

[shortroot]

Does anyone know if non-resident hunters are able to transport meat back to the US yet? My taxidermist said he has to remove all meat from skulls heading south, before they can cross the border.

I do know that many guided hunters don't take their meat home, which would suggest an interest in just killing for fun or horn:frown:. Although most, maybe even all:rolleyes:, outfitters will take this meat and share with their friends, guides and local charities.

However, I've been on many a guide outfitters site and they have added costs for hunters if they choose to take their meat out with them (as flights cost extra for meat). This sounds ridiculous to me, as I will get fined if I don't bring all the meat out on the fly-in hunts I do. Obviously the outfitter is required to use the meat, so why charge extra to bring the meat out when they are going to have to pay for it anyway, if the client chooses to leave the meat with the outfitter. Unless of course the outfitters are dumping the meat:eek:, which of course would never happen:rolleyes:. The way some of the outfits advertise make me wonder if they are scamming clients or if they truly don't care about the legallity of utilizing the meat from the game they hunt and kill.

The reason I say all this is that I have no problem with most outfitters and the outfitting business in BC, but to take away the opportunity for a resident to feed his/her family by hunting game, only to replace it with the opportunity for a potential millionaire from the US or Europe to smack a big game animal for pride and social status is ludicrous, especially when many of the guided hunters could care less about the meat from the animal they shoot. Unless biologically required there should be no reduction in opportunity for residents, just to appease the GO community.

I would one day love to purchase a small hunting territory, but like moosehunter said, I would still want to protect my resident rights (I wouldn't want to have to pay myself for the opportunity to hunt). The government should crack down on non-resident ownership of guiding territories, loopholes need to be closed. Foreign interests are making it exceedingly difficult to get into the business.

[shortroot]

Mooseman,

Going LEH is not what I heard, just mentioning that the qouta thing would only make sense if that were the case. Right now it just sounds phony, as the GO's wouldn't benifit as it sits now, sounds made up.

[Mooseman]

Shortroot - I am happy you are bringing up these points. Many people have the wrong idea what goes on in the outfitting world. My answers might help some with the misconceptions that exist.

- You can take meat and antlers in to the US providing you have all the papers and documents needed. The scull has to be clean and free of rotting meat. The meat it self needs to have prove of sex and species or it went through a local meat cutting plant.

- Many clients take their meat home. Some take only 70 lbs or so when they are flying. The rest goes to the guides (residents & their families) the outfitter (resident & his family) and to the salvation army (residents). Nothing can or should be left in the bush!
The difference between the resident hunter and the outfitter in the case of leaving meat in the bush is that the outfitter can loose EVERYTHING.
To put that in to prospective: You're fired, we'll take everything you worked for in the last 20 years or so, start life over again.

- If you hunt for trophy or meat is up to you. As long as it is legal! (Also mentioned in forum rules)

- The extra cost to fly meat out for each client has to do with the fact that if the client wants his/her meat that will be an extra flight. Otherwise that meat gets flown out as a meat flight with a whole other bunch of meat and will not fit the timing of the clients schedules. It usually goes to the salvation army and that cost is donated by the outfitter or the pilot or both. If a client is looking for a meat hunt they can book with a guy where they can have easy access and bring it out with them.

- Most clients are not millionaires. They actually are steel workers, carpenters, police officers, correction officers, cooks, foresters, post man, mechanics and so on. Even if they had lots of money that tells nothing about their character.

- About having non residents buying areas. This is a free country and a democracy last time I checked. That is like me saying that I don't want lower mainlanders buying houses in PG. That brings up the price of the place I am looking at buying. Yet they do fly in here every weekend and buy real-estate.

We live in a democratic-capitalistic western world. And not all of it will be good. But start comparing to the rest of the world and how it could be.

BC is the best place in the world to live and work! If you don't think so show me a better one.

[oldtimer]

For those of you that don't know it Region 5 is one of the best hunting regions in all of Canada due to it's easy access by road or air, and it's very diversified game population.
I have hunted and lived in this area for approx 23 years and I can, with a certainty tell you we have more deer now than I can ever remember. The ONLY reason a group like the CCGOA wants to reduce the limit is to increase the population of trophy bucks for their clients.
Think about it ! most people I know that hunt here do it this way:1.Get a deer for the freezer. 2. See if I can get that big one. With a reduction my priorities will still be the same- GET A DEER FOR THE FREEZER. !
Mooseman are you a member of the CCGOA ???
MIKE

[shortroot]

Mooseman,

Correct me if I am wrong. I thought that in BC there was supposed to be no foreign ownership of Guide Outfitting concessions. If I am wrong, then I apologize.

I didn't mean to imply that all clients are millionaires, but on average I am willing to bet that they are better off financially than the majority of resident hunters in BC. Different regions of BC also tend to attract different clients. Someone paying to hunt moose in region 5 @ ~$4000 a hunt is less likely to have an opportunity at a "trophy" animal, and is more attractive to a client looking for meat or adventure, compared to a client in the north paying $7-10,000 for a "trophy" hunt. The majority of hunters you may see (I am assuming a territory near PG), I am guessing, would come from a different financial structure than those of say Stone Mountain Safaris or Big Nine. This largely having to do with the percieved "trophy" quality of game available in the area. This is not to say there are not similar clients between these areas, just that there will tend to be differences on average.

For management of a business (Guide Territory) I would want my concession managed for the best return on my investment. For someone guiding mule deer in region5 (where trophy animals are commonly taken) I would also want to see changes in current regulations, heck I do as a resident. However, there comes a point where resident interests in hunting have to be looked at and discussed prior to changes being made. The government can't be making decisions in little meetings with special interest groups without letting the public know. The only reason I know of proposals is because of the internet, never in the local paper, radio, news, etc. There need to be changes to regulations throughout the province, to ensure opportunities for hunting game remains well into the furture, both for trophy and non-trophy animals. I don't want to end up having region5 like Pensylvania where 1,000,000 deer are shot in a year, with few being over 3 years old, but I also don't want to turn it into 7B with 4 point only and 1 in 3 years.

Nice to have ya here mooseman:D

No arguments with BC being #1, just need to continue being #1 for BC residents.

[Mooseman]

Hi oldtimer,
I am not a member of the CCGOA. I am a member of the North-Central GOA and with that of the GOABC.

Reg. 5 is a fantastic place ! Just don't tell anyone.............

shortroot, I will answer you later. Have to take my boys out stump shooting as long as it is light out.

[Steeleco]

I have to wonder how much the executive of the CCGOA is communicating with it's members and it's affiliates. I'm a member of a very large trade union and these things happen all the time. Just thinking out load!!!

Thanks for the feedback from the "other side" Mooseman.

[Mooseman]

OK I am back now to answer your questions and then I will shut down for the day.

- Anyone can buy a guide area just the outfitter & certificate holder has to be 19 years of age and a BC resident or landed immigrant.

- I have no demographics on the clients we outfitters in BC have but you would be surprised to see how normal and just like you most are. When taking a look around here in BC I see new trucks, snowmobiles, ATV's and boats all over the place. BC Res. are not that poor. We could all save for an African safari if that is something we really wanted to do!

- See, I manage my guide territory differently. First I look after ethics and the laws then I try to be as fair as I can to my guides and the clients. If things work out and at the end I can live from it I am happy.
The recommendation of 2 bucks to 1 buck was only a proposal from the CCGOA made to the Hunters Advisory Committee. And you have representation through the BCWF there. That Committee will then make a recommendation to the Gov. and then they will make the final decision as far as I know. There was also public meetings and newspaper ads I was told. But oldtimer could perhaps tell you more about that??????

- Reg. 7B deer regulations are because of bad Winter kills!?

Steeleco - I think we get good information flow through our head office. But surely not on every suggestion made at some LRMP or Hunting Advisory Committee meeting in the province.
This was blown out of proportion and dressed up with lies by the BCWF. I don't know why. The biggest problem for its members is that the BCWF has lost credibility with many people.

I can not behave like a kid and expect to be treated like an adult!

[oldtimer]

Mooseman--- I understand what you are saying-- BUT-- lets look at the cariboo wildlife Advisory Committee's make up:
4 BCWF reps
1 non-affilliate rep-- ( don't know how or who this is picked from )
4 CCGOA reps
1 non affilliated guide outfitter ( see above- same thing, don't know )
2 Cariboo Cattlemens association
2 Cariboo chilcotin Traoppers association

Now I don't know about the rest of you but I would imagine that most trappers would prefer that any hunter not disturb their trap line.
Again I don't know wether cattlemen like or dislike hunters travelling thru their land or , as we know happens , chewing up the roads thru their property.
SOOOOOOOOOOO would a reduction in limit sound good to them???? possibly until the deer population is doing so much damage to their fields that they would want the hunters back. We all know how hard it is to get something back once it has been taken away don't we ??
All of these are points to think about when talking to your local and regional politicians. Just make sure you are rational and quote facts not unsubstatiated theories like the CCGOA.
The proposals that the CCGOA have made go to this committe, not the government, this committee sends it's recommendations to the Govt.. The reduction of Mule deer limits has been brought forth for the last 3 meetings by the CCGOA stating that many residents are in favor of this. They had no evidence to support this claim.
I guess a question needs to be asked > who benefits from a reduction in our bag limit in region 5 ????
Think about it !!!! MIKE

[tmarschall]

Very interesting post. Game management regulations have always been a big interest of mine. Locally here... the "special interest" that has held back better game management has been the land owners,,, since 90% plus of the land is privately owned. However within the past couple of years I have seen some new regulations that literally shocked me as to how effective they might be. They actually made sense!!! What they did the first year was changed the regs for 6 "experimental" counties. These counties were in areas where hunting pressure was high and a one buck limit. The change required that bucks have at least 13 inch spread, or one unbranched antler. The harvest was changed to 2 bucks, but one had to have the unbranched antler. I will try to summarize the results thus far. The 6 counties covered 500,000 acres. The regulations were implemented in 2002. Before the regulations, 52% of the bucks harvested were yearlings, 27% were 2 yr olds. Average buck harvest before the regulation was 5,000 bucks, this dropped to 3,000 bucks the first year. The second year the buck harvest increased to 5,300. The percentage of yearling bucks harvested dropped from 52% to 14%. At the end of the 2004, 3 yr old harvest increased from 16% to 39% and the 4 yr old harvest increased from 4% to 39%. During this same time, population studies were conducted to issue doe permits to bring the doe/buck ratio into balance. Fifteen more counties have signed up for these regulations for this year's season. These regulations are the best I have ever seen that really meet the needs of a larger hunter population, meat hunters get to cull the herds and trophy hunters get older deer... everyone wins!!! From what I have seen of wildlife in BC, it seems regulations somewhat like these would have similar results. The article in the local hunting regulations mentioned that it was actually the landowners who banded together and requested the new regulations. I think behind the scenes, it was biologists fed up with govt beaurocracy that actually planted the seed in the minds of the landowners. In either case, the people of the counties got their way and everyone benefited. Sure there are differences between your habitat and ours, we definitely have fewer predators and winter kills are not a big problem here. But a healthy herd of animals are the best defense against those forces of nature, in any climate. The need for point restrictions and bag limit reductions to me are a failure of game management policies. Healthy herds can withstand the hunting pressure only if the herds are managed properly. I'm sure if any of you wanted more information on this program, the Texas Parks and Wildlife department would be glad to share the info. Good food for thought maybe, I hope this can help in some way, good luck.... Tom

[BCHunter]

i'll sign it also....way to many hunters in there! over the long weekend along the Parks guy check 127 people! 127!!!!

If i get re-elected as a Director for next year this will be a subject I'll bring up...

[Mooseman]

Mooseman--- I understand what you are saying-- BUT-- lets look at the cariboo wildlife Advisory Committee's make up:
4 BCWF reps
1 non-affilliate rep-- ( don't know how or who this is picked from )
4 CCGOA reps
1 non affilliated guide outfitter ( see above- same thing, don't know )
2 Cariboo Cattlemens association
2 Cariboo chilcotin Traoppers association

Now I don't know about the rest of you but I would imagine that most trappers would prefer that any hunter not disturb their trap line.
Again I don't know wether cattlemen like or dislike hunters travelling thru their land or , as we know happens , chewing up the roads thru their property.
SOOOOOOOOOOO would a reduction in limit sound good to them???? possibly until the deer population is doing so much damage to their fields that they would want the hunters back. We all know how hard it is to get something back once it has been taken away don't we ??
All of these are points to think about when talking to your local and regional politicians. Just make sure you are rational and quote facts not unsubstatiated theories like the CCGOA.
The proposals that the CCGOA have made go to this committe, not the government, this committee sends it's recommendations to the Govt.. The reduction of Mule deer limits has been brought forth for the last 3 meetings by the CCGOA stating that many residents are in favor of this. They had no evidence to support this claim.
I guess a question needs to be asked > who benefits from a reduction in our bag limit in region 5 ????
Think about it !!!! MIKE

Hi Oldtimer,
let me say that I have a lot of respect for you (and your family) and thank you for this proper discussion about the bag limit. I totally understand your point and perhaps agree with it partially. Some areas in Reg. 5 have a lot of deer and good #'s of class 4 bucks. But some don't. I hunt (not as much as you) Reg. 5 quite a bit for Mule's with my longbow mind you and have not had a chance in 2 years in my favorite spots! Just got back from 5-05 and it is sad there. So was 5-03 last year. I thought there was no deer anywhere! Very little sign in the snow and defiantly not enough to perhaps get a chance with a stick.
Maybe by looking at management units and not the whole Reg. we could get closer to the proper wildlife management????

As for the wildlife committee's make up! In a democracy the # of interest representation could be equal ???? But then things would look like that:

4 BCWF reps
4 non-affiliate rep-- (res. hunter not BCWF member)
4 First Nations rep's
4 CCGOA reps
4 non affiliated guide outfitter (not GOABC members)
4 Cariboo Cattlemens Association
4 Cariboo Chilcotin Trapper Association
4 Anti hunting org. rep's

I think the make up right now is not a bad one.

[Mooseman]

Thank you Tom. That sounds very interesting and well worth checking out by our biologists.

Who could pass that on to the committee ???

[BCHunter]

Mooseman who are the 4 BCWF reps?

[Sniper]

I'm with Kutenay on this one! Like i suggested in an earlier thread on wildlife management proposals why not increase hunting license fees slightly and use the extra bucks (pun intended):lol: to start a buy back program to reduce the size of and eliminate all together guide outfitter operations? A lot of people do not realize how hard some remote area's are being hit by the Outfitters *because they ARE remote!* don't bitch me out here! I have a very good understanding of the Guide Outfitter business my uncle's family where Guide Outfitters for 75 years and I have a cousin now that has his own area. Most family run operations that don't have a pack of assistant guides and a twin engine cargo plane to haul in the foriegn hunters and haul out the meat as well as a spotter plane will really have to work at it to damage an area. BUT! in some area's Guide Outfitting has become nothing more than commercial killing of Wildlife with almost the horse power of a military assault! Spotter planes, cargo planes, Quads, snowmobiles, Argos, Jetboats pack horses ect ect ect! Lets get our proposals typed up and sent in!!! and don't tell me what great guy's those Guide Outfitters are as far as sharing their area my cousin regularly talks about finding ways to keep those c### s###in residents out!

[Mooseman]

Mooseman who are the 4 BCWF reps?

I don't know. Oldtimer might know more about that?

[Mooseman]

I'm with Kutenay on this one! Like i suggested in an earlier thread on wildlife management proposals why not increase hunting license fees slightly and use the extra bucks (pun intended):lol: to start a buy back program to reduce the size of and eliminate all together guide outfitter operations? A lot of people do not realize how hard some remote area's are being hit by the Outfitters *because they ARE remote!* don't bitch me out here! I have a very good understanding of the Guide Outfitter business my uncle's family where Guide Outfitters for 75 years and I have a cousin now that has his own area. Most family run operations that don't have a pack of assistant guides and a twin engine cargo plane to haul in the foriegn hunters and haul out the meat as well as a spotter plane will really have to work at it to damage an area. BUT! in some area's Guide Outfitting has become nothing more than commercial killing of Wildlife with almost the horse power of a military assault! Spotter planes, cargo planes, Quads, snowmobiles, Argos, Jetboats pack horses ect ect ect! Lets get our proposals typed up and sent in!!! and don't tell me what great guy's those Guide Outfitters are as far as sharing their area my cousin regularly talks about finding ways to keep those c### s###in residents out!

That is an excellent idea! I would have lots of time to go hunting then when you buy me out.

To the rest of your post I am speachless (writeless). That sounds quite bad and I would agree with you that the situation you are telling us about is horrible and some of it ilegal!
But I have also seen all the things mentioned here used by resident hunters and let me tell you that is just as bad on the game and the natural beauty out there.

Perhaps a motorized vehicle restriction for all could fix that?

[oldtimer]

Mooseman--- NOW THAT MAKES SOME SENSE !!!-- if there has to be a reduction ( and I'm not agreeing to that at this time ) do it only where the population warrants it. Good thought Mooseman. I know the areas around Quesnel don't need it 5-2, 5-13, and 5-14.
I should have mentioned that the recommendations of the wildlife committee have to have the blessings of the First Nations as I understand it as well. ( that is a whole other debate. ) Mike