stone sheep inventory 7-52 in 2009

[bridger]

just received this info by email the entire doucment is 20 pages will try and post it tomorrow. thought the sheep hunters on site might enjoy teh sheep summary




2009 Stone’s Sheep / Caribou Inventory -

MU 7-52

by:

Conrad Thiessen
Wildlife Biologist
Ministry of Environment
400 – 10003 110th Avenue
Fort St. John BC V1J 6M7
March 2009

Executive Summary

Between February 25 and March 5, 2009 an aerial classified total count of Stone’s sheep was conducted in Management Unit 7-52 of the Peace Region of British Columbia. During the survey a total of 1101 sheep were counted (627 ewe-like sheep, 135 lambs, 60 class I rams, 128 class II rams, 124 class III rams, 30 class IV rams). A sightability correction factor of 79% was applied to the observations based on research conducted in the Sulfur/8 Mile study area bringing the estimated number of Stone’s sheep in the inventory area to 1332. In 1997 an inventory covering a portion of MU 7-52 was conducted during which 1528 sheep were observed (1037 of which were within the boundaries of the 2009 survey area). In 2007 a wildlife inventory was conducted by ResCan as part of an environmental assessment for mining operations in the Kutcho Lake area of MU 7-52. During that survey 67 sheep were counted. By combining all the survey observations collected over the last two years in the Peace Region: 1101 sheep from the 2009 MU 7-52 survey, 3137 sheep from the 2007 MoE Stone’s sheep inventory, 67 sheep from the Kutcho Creek count and 939 sheep from the Sulfur/8 Mile survey a total of 5244 sheep were observed in the Peace Region. If the 79% sightability correction factor is applied then there are an estimated 6345 Stone’s sheep in the Peace Region. As these were primarily total counts it is not possible to put confidence intervals around the estimate. However, results from the Sulfur/8 Mile project showed 95% confidence intervals in the +/- 13-25% range.

[hunter7413]

what do they concider class I or II or III rams

[6616]

what do they concider class I or II or III rams

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Sheep_Classification.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13320&size=big&cat=500)

[PGK]

Man, those are some interesting numbers.....

[Bowtime]

Well, whoever did the counting knows where there are 30 class IV rams!!

[bigwhiteys]

Well, whoever did the counting knows where there are 30 class IV rams!!


Good Luck finding them come hunting season :)

Carl

[willy442]

30 class IV and 124 class III. Backs up my theory of why its so easy to shoot a 7 year old. Also shows if we keep shooting the class III's, soon there will be very few real trophy quality rams left. LEH is not far around the corner in my opinion, can't wait.:smile:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Should be easier to find a few class IV with the drop in the number of GO allocations;-).

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

Should be easier to find a few class IV with the drop in the number of GO allocations:wink:.

Yeah... 30 class IV in 7-52 sounds like the odds are going up big time! With the number of Class III's no wonder they drop like flies, much easier to find.

Carl

[boxhitch]

Looks like a healthy population, even if there were no class IV rams. Good lamb numbers. if that equates to 30% survival.
Overall pop. number seems to be still declining though.
Somehow, an acceptable minimum has to be established, and a plan to maintain that number.
So far MOE doesn't seem concerned about the numbers.

[whitetailsheds]

Can someone clarify something for me? I know this is posted (thanks Bridger) as a stone sheep inventory for "7-52".
I can't get my head twisted around the fact that it concludes there are 6345 stone sheep in the Peace Region...so... from the whole of the Williston area east to the highway, north to Muncho and area, and then west along the eastern side of the Kechika trench, and everywhere therein...there are approximately 6345!!!! In that whole area? That is what I have in my head as the Peace region.
I'll have to look back at past threads but I thought I'd seen a number like 12,000 and some stone sheep.
Oh oh, something just dawned on me. And that's that I just realized the "12,000" number I'm thinking of, is for all stones in BC.
I guess it's not that unreasonable now that I've spent this time typing it out.

[Bowtime]

LEH is not far around the corner in my opinion, can't wait.:smile:

Are you serious Willy!! I really think you should support GOS for sheep. They couldn't put it on LEH. Unless the count was low. Which it is far from if you take a look at those numbers.

[BCrams]

If its any indication. 7-52 is going to be a prime Stone's sheep region to be hunting the next few years.

Seeing the Class I numbers, I am pretty confident to say some of those "ewe like" sheep were actually Class I rams given how close their horns are in combination with trying to judge from the air. Otherwise, those Class I rams 8-10 yrs from now may indicate tough hunting due to low numbers.

[GoatGuy]

30 class IV and 124 class III. Backs up my theory of why its so easy to shoot a 7 year old. Also shows if we keep shooting the class III's, soon there will be very few real trophy quality rams left. LEH is not far around the corner in my opinion, can't wait.:smile:

What percent of rams are Class IV in an un-hunted population?

[boxhitch]

I'll have to look back at past threads but I thought I'd seen a number like 12,000 and some stone sheep.
Oh oh, something just dawned on me. And that's that I just realized the "12,000" number I'm thinking of, is for all stones in BC.
For the Peace region, 12,000 was the about the number a couple of decades ago, after a period of intensive predator control. The trend has been downhill since.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What percent of rams are Class IV in an un-hunted population?

And don't forget about weather patterns. Tough winter/cold late spring 8 years ago....poor lamb survival........Easier winter/spring the next year or two?? Better crop of lambs= better crop of mature rams coming 8 years later??
Lots-o-variables.

SSS

[boxhitch]

30 class IV and 124 class III. Backs up my theory of why its so easy to shoot a 7 year old. Also shows if we keep shooting the class III's, soon there will be very few real trophy quality rams left. LEH is not far around the corner in my opinion, can't wait.:smile:The reason there are 30 IV's is the fact that some III's were killed. If another 15 hunters held off and connected on a IV, that 30 would be reduced to 15. Then you would be snivelling even more.
The fact that some hunters went home with a cl. III Trophy is outstanding, compared to the alternative of going home empty.

[bigwhiteys]

If another 15 hunters held off and connected on a IV, that 30 would be reduced to 15. Then you would be snivelling even more.

The next year several of those 15 class III's they passed on would now become class IV, whereas the class IV rams that are never found/harvested are much more likely to die that winter or within the next few... are they not?

Carl

[GoatGuy]

The next year several of those 15 class III's they passed on would now become class IV, whereas the class IV rams that are never found/harvested are much more likely to die that winter or within the next few... are they not?

Carl

How much more likely to die?

[GoatGuy]

Can someone clarify something for me? I know this is posted (thanks Bridger) as a stone sheep inventory for "7-52".
I can't get my head twisted around the fact that it concludes there are 6345 stone sheep in the Peace Region...so... from the whole of the Williston area east to the highway, north to Muncho and area, and then west along the eastern side of the Kechika trench, and everywhere therein...there are approximately 6345!!!! In that whole area? That is what I have in my head as the Peace region.
I'll have to look back at past threads but I thought I'd seen a number like 12,000 and some stone sheep.
Oh oh, something just dawned on me. And that's that I just realized the "12,000" number I'm thinking of, is for all stones in BC.
I guess it's not that unreasonable now that I've spent this time typing it out.
Somewhere between 5000-7000 is the estimate for 7B.

[GoatGuy]

And don't forget about weather patterns. Tough winter/cold late spring 8 years ago....poor lamb survival........Easier winter/spring the next year or two?? Better crop of lambs= better crop of mature rams coming 8 years later??
Lots-o-variables.

SSS
I'm just asking Willy what it should be on average for an un-hunted population. Being the sheep expert he is he should know.

[bridger]

30 class IV and 124 class III. Backs up my theory of why its so easy to shoot a 7 year old. Also shows if we keep shooting the class III's, soon there will be very few real trophy quality rams left. LEH is not far around the corner in my opinion, can't wait.:smile:

bill we will both be dead before that happens!

[willy442]

Are you serious Willy!! I really think you should support GOS for sheep. They couldn't put it on LEH. Unless the count was low. Which it is far from if you take a look at those numbers.

I sheep hunted in the 70's,80's and 90's believe me the sheep numbers have consistently declined through out all those years. I believe the decline is related to the following in this order.
1. Predators
2. Hunting and over harvest by all groups in localized areas.
3. Pressure on habitat by Elk and lack of habitat enhancement.

Sheep are an animal that frequent very small portions of the Peace Region and any of the areas can very easily be over pressured by any of the above. LEH can and will work to disperse the hunting populations, predator control along with it could see Sheep numbers grow dramatically over a very short period of time, in relation to the decline.
When looking at the land mass in what is refered to as the Peace Region 6000 is pretty sad, also remember the count is only accurate to within 25%. The fact alone of the low count of class IV Rams should be of concern to all sheep hunters. These are the rams that lead the weak and wounded from the rut to the winter range and lead the younger ones to survival, without higher numbers of them we are only continuing to help with the decline. Do too these reasons including my concerns and love for Stone Sheep, I will for the present time totally support LEH on Stone Sheep.

[willy442]

What percent of rams are Class IV in an un-hunted population?

You tell me, since you have all the numbers.
What I can tell you is that I was actually out there hunting them at one time when the numbers of what is now refered to as class IV were much much higher then now. Something you can only dream about.:p

[willy442]

And don't forget about weather patterns. Tough winter/cold late spring 8 years ago....poor lamb survival........Easier winter/spring the next year or two?? Better crop of lambs= better crop of mature rams coming 8 years later??
Lots-o-variables.

SSS

SSS. I've seen cold winters, deep snow, and lack of wind to blow slopes clear for winter feed area's. Yes, I agree it can make small adjustments in animal numbers. What I can tell you is, it never has made near the difference that hunters and predators have. This is an age old arguement that affects Deer, Elk and Moose more than Sheep.
Are you telling me, seeing as all your personal contributions to Sheep harvest data have been in the class III catagory, that you are going to now try for a quality Ram this year?

[willy442]

The reason there are 30 IV's is the fact that some III's were killed. If another 15 hunters held off and connected on a IV, that 30 would be reduced to 15. Then you would be snivelling even more.
The fact that some hunters went home with a cl. III Trophy is outstanding, compared to the alternative of going home empty.

The actual reason the class III Rams are being killed has nothing to do with class IV Rams other than the fact that most novice sheep hunters cannot tell one from the other and the fact the older Rams are alot smarter than the little fella's so eagerly sought after by the novice.
Like I said in an earlier post, the class IV rams are the lifeline for the survival of the young (a picture that the resident and politics just can't grasp).

[bridger]

I think all sheep hunters are concerned about the long term effects of weather, predation, competition with other species, and hunting pressure on sheep. I know I am, but I will not accept a reduction of my opportunities to go sheep hunting when the non resident harvest is 45 -50% of the total harvest and at a time when a lot of the guiding areas are really international hunting companies.
Why would any resident hunter woud support leh under these circumstances? i am prepared to accept the harvest levels set by the pro's on the moe staff and am confident they will not allow an serious overharvest of sheep or any other species.

[willy442]

bill we will both be dead before that happens!

Careful Bridger you've got a few years on me.:lol:

Let me clear up one thing. I do not support LEH to stop residents from hunting, nor to side with the GO's. My concern is Sheep and only Sheep. I wish there was a better way that would work. Unfortunately I have watched nothing happen for too long and numbers keep declining. I know you've also seen it.

[willy442]

I think all sheep hunters are concerned about the long term effects of weather, predation, competition with other species, and hunting pressure on sheep. I know I am, but I will not accept a reduction of my opportunities to go sheep hunting when the non resident harvest is 45 -50% of the total harvest and at a time when a lot of the guiding areas are really international hunting companies.
Why would any resident hunter woud support leh under these circumstances?

Bridger as you know the GO industry has changed dramatically over the last few years. I for one really don't have much respect for the industry at present. How ever having said that, I refuse to enter into the who gets what share arguement. Lets worry about the Sheep first and once that is done the numbers and shares will most likely be alot better for everyone. For the last how many years have been dealing with the issue on the same old grounds that the nonresident is getting to large of share. Nothing has been resolved other than share changes, the Sheep keep declining.

[GoatGuy]

You tell me, since you have all the numbers.
What I can tell you is that was actually out there hunting them at one time when the numbers of what is now refered to as class IV were much much higher then now. Something you can only dream about.:p

Obviously there would be more class IV rams when you were hunting them. With twice the number of sheep there should be. :roll: Make sense?

Being a Geist guy you should know what the number of Class IV rams are in an un-hunted population. Please share what that number is.

[willy442]

Obviously there would be more class IV rams when you were hunting them. With twice the number of sheep there should be. :roll: Make sense?

Being a Geist guy you should know what the number of Class IV rams are in an un-hunted population. Please share what that number is.

Sorry GG but I work off of experience and what I've observed. I really never have put much faith into the works of people like yourself that read and compile numbers from others. Like I said there were enough Sheep we never required that type of information. Only after the involvement of people educated beyond thier intelligence. Thinking they could compile all these numbers and through thier learnings help the Sheep, has information like this become what is thought to be a neccessity. What is yet to be seen though is the value of your numbers. This is the real question as these people have been working on this for at least the past 25 years and Sheep continually decline in numbers. When is your data going to show us the hunter, some results?:smile:

[GoatGuy]

Sorry GG but I work off of experience and what I've observed. I really never have put much faith into the works of people like yourself that read and compile numbers from others. Like I said there were enough Sheep we never required that type of information. Only after the involvement of people educated beyond thier intelligence. Thinking they could compile all these numbers and through thier learnings help the Sheep, has information like this become what is thought to be a neccessity. What is yet to be seen though is the value of your numbers. This is the real question as these people have been working on this for at least the past 25 years and Sheep continually decline in numbers. When is your data going to show us the hunter, some results?:smile:

Pretty tough to compare what you saw in your area, where there was relatively no access, little resident pressure, predator control and burns, to a hunted sheep population with no predator control or habitat enhancement.

Geist has already done all the work on this. Other people have also done work on it as well. Figured you'd know that.

What you want to do in research is identify and explain why things happen.

Generally the work shows how many rams you can harvest without negatively impacting the population. It shows what mortality is for 8+ and <8, what the percentage of Class IV rams are in an un-hunted population, how many 8 year olds can be harvested amongst several other things.

The research identifies what the limiting factors are in a sheep population.

You're coming up with solutions and basing them not on what the problems are but what you saw in your area 25+ years where you had no stressors on the population. As you said "there were enough Sheep we never required that type of information." It must have been nice. Unfortunately we don't have that benefit today.

Like everything else you need to how to identify whether you've got habitat, hunting, predation or competition problems. Then come up with solutions.


Suffice it to say even with zero sheep hunting in 7B the population would still be right around what it is now.

[willy442]

Pretty tough to compare what you saw in your area, where there was relatively no access, little resident pressure, predator control and burns, to a hunted sheep population with no predator control or habitat enhancement.

Geist has already done all the work on this. Other people have also done work on it as well. Figured you'd know that.

What you want to do in research is identify and explain why things happen.

Generally the work shows how many rams you can harvest without negatively impacting the population. It shows what mortality is for 8+ and <8, what the percentage of Class IV rams are in an un-hunted population, how many 8 year olds can be harvested amongst several other things.

The research identifies what the limiting factors are in a sheep population.

You're coming up with solutions and basing them not on what the problems are but what you saw in your area 25+ years where you had no stressors on the population. As you said "there were enough Sheep we never required that type of information." It must have been nice. Unfortunately we don't have that benefit today.

Like everything else you need to how to identify whether you've got habitat, hunting, predation or competition problems. Then come up with solutions.


Suffice it to say even with zero sheep hunting in 7B the population would still be right around what it is now.

GG: No I'm not coming up with solutions. What I'm saying is over the time of my Sheep hunting career this is what I observed. I fail to have the answers and niether do you or Dr Giest, the reason I say this is every few years another unexperienced but educated, (eager know it all comes along) and reignites all the old scientific data that has showed very poor results the last 5 times it came around. Sheep keep declining and the same old bullshit comes out.
Where do you get off on saying Sheep numbers are of no concern? Not many years ago we had in excess of 12 thousand sheep in the Peace region. Biologists became more involved and predator control stopped partially because, with thier new diploma's they could find a better way to deal with the issue's of predators. Then sheep studies started, again we had 12,000 sheep. Time passed and we were presented with data and bullshit about how if we put our trust into the educated, all would be well. Well I'm sorry but since being asked to throw all my cards in with these people that could count and develope formula's, I've watched Sheep decline by over half and predators increase three fold.
Now what I really find amusing is the fact that you say these number changes would have happened anyway. This being the case. What has your type accomplished over the last 25 years and why should we believe you'll accomplish anything in the next 25.:p

[6616]

Careful Bridger you've got a few years on me.:lol:

Let me clear up one thing. I do not support LEH to stop residents from hunting, nor to side with the GO's. My concern is Sheep and only Sheep. I wish there was a better way that would work. Unfortunately I have watched nothing happen for too long and numbers keep declining. I know you've also seen it.


Is the AAH of 180 rams being exceeded, if not how will LEH change anything or halt the decline?

[goatdancer]

Being an inexperinced sheep hunter, I have to ask these questions. If there are only 30 class IV rams in 7-52 and, if these same rams are the ones that lead the rest to feeding grounds, etc, what is the big concern about shooting class III rams? If the class IVs are the 'saviours of the herd', why target them instead of the not quite mature ones? This whole debate seems to be fraught with contradictions. If someone is young and has lots of time to take a class IV ram, then maybe they can hold out for one of those. But for an old geezer who has maybe 2 or 3 sheep hunts left, I have no problem with taking a legal full curl if the opportunity presents itself. Some of us do not have the luxury of spending years searching for the ever elusive class IV ram.

[Ambush]

Being a Geist guy you should know what the number of Class IV rams are in an un-hunted population. Please share what that number is.

GG. Bridger posted the numbers for our present hunted population.

Do you have the stats for an un-hunted population and if so, will you post them? How relevant would it be? I would find it an interesting comparison. Thanks.

[bridger]

GG. Bridger posted the numbers for our present hunted population.

Do you have the stats for an un-hunted population and if so, will you post them? How relevant would it be? I would find it an interesting comparison. Thanks.

i don't know of any unhunted popuations outside the park system. i do know that for 25 years the sucess of the annual harvest was based on the per centage of old rams that were taken if 65% or higher were over 8 yrs old the bios felt the harvest was just fine. if under that they were concerned. i don't know which is right or wrong, i do know however that a full curl ram is desirable by both residents and non residents.

[willy442]

Is the AAH of 180 rams being exceeded, if not how will LEH change anything or halt the decline?

You are missing the point. We used to have an annual harvest exceeding 300 sheep. Now after many years of mismanagement and excuse's we have a harvest of 180.
It goes a little deeper than the AAH. This is only a valid number to the resident hunting population and biologists. In actual fact the harvest numbers with in the class III and IV Rams is just as important, for reasons already explained.

[6616]

In Val Geist's "Mountain Sheep - A Study in Behavior and Evolution" pages 36 to 41, Dr Geist published herd composition data for two distinct bighorn sheep populations in Banff National Park.

The Grassy Mountain herd composition was 64% male sheep including male yearlings, and the number of class IV rams was 30.5% of the total number of male sheep including male yearlings.

The Palliser herd was 62% males including yearlings and 24% of these were class IV rams.

I don't know of this information on bighorns is applical to Stones' Sheep or not...? These were total population ground surveys of vitual tame sheep that were very easy to approach and classify. During an aerial survey it's doubtful if either male or female yearlings could be positivelly identified and that woulod skew the nunbers somewhat.

[willy442]

Being an inexperinced sheep hunter, I have to ask these questions. If there are only 30 class IV rams in 7-52 and, if these same rams are the ones that lead the rest to feeding grounds, etc, what is the big concern about shooting class III rams? If the class IVs are the 'saviours of the herd', why target them instead of the not quite mature ones? This whole debate seems to be fraught with contradictions. If someone is young and has lots of time to take a class IV ram, then maybe they can hold out for one of those. But for an old geezer who has maybe 2 or 3 sheep hunts left, I have no problem with taking a legal full curl if the opportunity presents itself. Some of us do not have the luxury of spending years searching for the ever elusive class IV ram.

The class III rams as you see in the numbers posted have an already high mortality rate. This is due to the rut and the fact that after the rut they go into the winter in a weaked condition. This makes it easier for predators and mother nature alike to prey on this class. We need as many of the class IV rams as we can get to lead these younger one's through that tough time. Granted the class IV's are a little harder to be successful on as a hunter. It's still a level playing field if everyone is required to shoot the older rams. If this was the case over an 8-10 year period we would most likely see a rise in class IV's. This would be good for both Sheep and Sheep hunters. To answer your last question, if you want a sheep bad enough you'll put in the time and effort to fill your tag.

[willy442]

In Val Geist's "Mountain Sheep - A Study in Behavior and Evolution" pages 36 to 41, Dr Geist published herd composition data for two distinct bighorn sheep populations in Banff National Park.

The Grassy Mountain herd composition was 64% male sheep including male yearlings, and the number of class IV rams was 30.5% of the total number of male sheep including male yearlings.

The Palliser herd was 62% males including yearlings and 24% of these were class IV rams.

I don't know of this information on bighorns is applical to Stones' Sheep or not...? These were total population ground surveys of vitual tame sheep that were very easy to approach and classify. During an aerial survey it's doubtful if either male or female yearlings could be positivelly identified and that woulod skew the nunbers somewhat.

I'm aware of the numbers on both the herds you mention. The equations are really not relevant to the Stone's in the Peace region. Just the enviromental factors such as length of winter is totally different. The predator situation is also entirely different.
I know you are a GG supporter but you both compare apples to oranges.

[bruin]

I took a look in one of Giest's books "Mountain Sheep. I can't find the composition of an unhunted herd but I did find a composition for one of his study areas (Glady's Lake, Cassiars).

Nov 8-dec 31
Class 4 24%
Class 3 24%
Class 2 35%
Class 1 16%

May 20- June 30
Class 4 21%
Class 3 24%
Class 2 39%
Class 1 16%

[bruin]

Keep in mind that as the class number increases, so does the age spread within that class.

Class 1 2.5 year
Class 2 3.5-6 years
Class 3 6-8 Years
Class 4 8-16 years

[boxhitch]

Like I said in an earlier post, the class IV rams are the lifeline for the survival of the young (a picture that the resident and politics just can't grasp).So then the harvest should be over a range of ages instead of just focusing on the oldest ? A policy that has validity with other ungulates as well?

Studies which you may not agree with suggest sheep at the ages of 5 and 6 years have learned the behaviour traits needed to survive nature.
Pop. numbers suggest there is no sperm shortage.

[willy442]

So then the harvest should be over a range of ages instead of just focusing on the oldest ? A policy that has validity with other ungulates as well?

Studies which you may not agree with suggest sheep at the ages of 5 and 6 years have learned the behaviour traits needed to survive nature.
Pop. numbers suggest there is no sperm shortage.

You are forgetting the fact that you are looking at and refering to numbers that have declined by over half in recent years.
Good idea though, lets hunt Sheep by the amount of sperm out there. I love it quicker leh. In the southern sheep herds you are right the 6 year old Rams have learned the behavior traits. Unfortunately we are dealing with many different factors in thin horn populations. If you've ever paid attention to the behavior of a group of Rams after you harvest an old Ram out of the group, you would have to agree.

[boxhitch]

If you've ever paid attention to the behavior of a group of Rams after you harvest an old Ram out of the group, you would have to agree.It happens in nature all the time, the followers are bewildered for a time, then carry on with life, always a new leader. They get a chance to mix it up and regroup before breeding season and or winter sets in.
And the bleat goes on.......

[Slee]

Couldnt this patern of high and now low numbers be similar to the cycle that rabbits and lynx go through just on a larger slower scale??

Every hunter I know has said this last two years there has been a huge jump in the sighting of large predators and a big decline of ungulate populations. Couldnt this be part of what we are seeing? Just the peak of a predator cycle? We have seen proguide take down a bunch of sick looking wolves this season. We could be at the point where there are too many predators and they have run out of easy prey and will start to decline soon..... If wolves were that stong they would have eaten every ungulate in north america long before we came here???

[willy442]

It happens in nature all the time, the followers are bewildered for a time, then carry on with life, always a new leader. They get a chance to mix it up and regroup before breeding season and or winter sets in.
And the bleat goes on.......

I don't know how many sheep you have watched but from post I presume not many. These younger Rams will wander around lost usually waiting for a new leader to take over as you say. The point I'm making is very often that new leader may not be one that will lead the group to safety after the rut and into winter. This is where the remaining old Rams after hunting season really come into play. Also how much thinhorn Sheep winter range have you flown and observed?

[willy442]

Couldnt this patern of high and now low numbers be similar to the cycle that rabbits and lynx go through just on a larger slower scale??

Every hunter I know has said this last two years there has been a huge jump in the sighting of large predators and a big decline of ungulate populations. Couldnt this be part of what we are seeing? Just the peak of a predator cycle? We have seen proguide take down a bunch of sick looking wolves this season. We could be at the point where there are too many predators and they have run out of easy prey and will start to decline soon..... If wolves were that stong they would have eaten every ungulate in north america long before we came here???

Slee; I believe mother nature used to have a cycle effect on predators. However in recent times our human involvement has disrupted that cycle in my opinion.

[6616]

I know you are a GG supporter but you both compare apples to oranges.

I'm not comparing the Banff info to anything for Ch___t's sake Bill, I actually questioned whether it would be applical to Stone Sheep. You're sure quick to trash everyone's statements, even as you take most of them out of context...!

[scoot]

I'm not comparing the Banff info to anything for Ch___t's sake Bill, I actually questioned whether it would be applical to Stone Sheep. You're sure quick to trash everyone's statements, even as you take most of them out of context...!

I respect the knowledge that someone who has hunted sheep for 25 years. But from much of what willy posts he cannot be wrong and it almost seems like he will say things to "trash" people just for shits and giggles. 6616, breath easy, Bill has little good to post about anything or anyone.

[Deadshot]

"Trash" aside. It's only an opinion.
If kept civil, it makes for good conversation.
Keep it comin Willy, you've seen more than most.

[Bowtime]

LEH can and will work to disperse the hunting populations, predator control along with it could see Sheep numbers grow dramatically over a very short period of time, in relation to the decline.
.

Wow you have been hunting for a long time. And you sound like you know your stuff. But you seem to think LEH is a solution?? It is not. It limits people when the sheep numbers are at a healthy population. Which is wrong in my opinion. If the numbers are good there shouldn't be restrictions.

[Bowtime]

The point I'm making is very often that new leader may not be one that will lead the group to safety after the rut and into winter. This is where the remaining old Rams after hunting season really come into play. Also how much thinhorn Sheep winter range have you flown and observed?

and you know this how? Have you observed sheep where the lead ram was shot into their wintering range? Didn't think so. I have guided many rams and we always shoot the oldest one out of the group. I'd say it takes less that 5 minutes for a ram to take over as lead if he is 6 years or more. sure the 3 and 4 years olds look confused, But they are young and are just followers. You seem to assume allot Willy.

[willy442]

I respect the knowledge that someone who has hunted sheep for 25 years. But from much of what willy posts he cannot be wrong and it almost seems like he will say things to "trash" people just for shits and giggles. 6616, breath easy, Bill has little good to post about anything or anyone.

Scoot: There are some on this site that I have very little use for and I don't mind calling a spade a spade. Sorry if it's a little to harsh for you but in most cases they have asked for my disrespect.

[bigwhiteys]

Have you observed sheep where the lead ram was shot into their wintering range? Didn't think so. I have guided many rams and we always shoot the oldest one out of the group.

Considering Willy was guideing when they could hunt sheep into November, I'd say he's taken some rams on winter range, as well as witnessed the herd dynamics change/improve/decline over several generations of individual herds, unfortunately he just didn't keep a journal to record and apply scientific methods and mathematical formulas to his observations. Too bad really, I am sure a lot could have been learned from some of the old timers if they'd recorded their observations afield, and over the generations. When they start to talk sheep I shut up and listen.

Carl

[willy442]

Wow you have been hunting for a long time. And you sound like you know your stuff. But you seem to think LEH is a solution?? It is not. It limits people when the sheep numbers are at a healthy population. Which is wrong in my opinion. If the numbers are good there shouldn't be restrictions.

Please explain how you figure Sheep are at very healty numbers. Because GG and a few others tell you? Have you not read the posts saying we have lost over 50% in the past few years? Limiting people is all LEH will do, I agree and strongly believe it is the best solution. Please explain to me why a person needs to shoot a bunch of Stone Sheep. We are the only place in the world that can in fact hunt all strains of North American Sheep including cross breeds. Why is it some have to hunt SS year after year. If you think it's because you are a resident and believe you're special, I'm sorry but that really won't do much to address the problems, it's shown us that many times over.

[willy442]

and you know this how? Have you observed sheep where the lead ram was shot into their wintering range? Didn't think so. I have guided many rams and we always shoot the oldest one out of the group. I'd say it takes less that 5 minutes for a ram to take over as lead if he is 6 years or more. sure the 3 and 4 years olds look confused, But they are young and are just followers. You seem to assume allot Willy.

Bowtime: I lived at mile 419 and observed SS on winter range out my bedroom window. We used to get our mail at Toad River Lodge, where I observed SS through the spotting scope that Dennis Callison used to keep there for the people traveling the highway as well as the rest of us all winter long. If you have ever been there in the winter months you too could look at many Rams wintering on the hills across the river. We ranged our horses at the Toad Hot Springs a place we used to frequently burn off to enhance pasture, it became very good winter range for Sheep. I went there frequently by both snow machine and Super Cub. Then I spent many years living near Muncho Lake, where we spent time hunting and trapping. One year I spent 180 days there through the winter, with a deaf native, feeding horse's and trapping, observing the behavior of sheep on winter range. In the early years of my guiding career we were able to hunt sheep on winter range and observe the effects of that. I will tell you I'm glad that has been shut off, for reasons that I won't get into.
I think my opinions right or wrong are a little more than assumptions, also politics and who gets what share don't contaminate my observations.
To be called out by a 23 year old hunting guide is funny. You have no idea what good numbers of sheep are.

[willy442]

I'm not comparing the Banff info to anything for Ch___t's sake Bill, I actually questioned whether it would be applical to Stone Sheep. You're sure quick to trash everyone's statements, even as you take most of them out of context...!

Sorry if you think I'm out of context, but I will not agree that Sheep are at acceptable numbers. I have personally watched the path of destruction we are on and the decline for too long now.

[6616]

Sorry if you think I'm out of context, but I will not agree that Sheep are at acceptable numbers. I have personally watched the path of destruction we are on and the decline for too long now.

Did I say anything at all about acceptable numbers? All I did was post some herd composition numbers on Banff bighorns....????????????

It was you that decided that because I know someone you don't like, that I'm fair game for your rude comments. Wow,,,, you're a piece of work dude...!!!!

[willy442]

Did I say anything at all about acceptable numbers? All I did was post some herd composition numbers on Banff bighorns....????????????

It was you that decided that because I know someone you don't like, that I'm fair game for your rude comments. Wow,,,, you're a piece of work dude...!!!!

Thanks: I have exactly the same opinion of you! Your information much like your friends is irrelevant to the discussion of thin horn sheep, which is what the thread is about.

[Deaddog]

Willy, while advocating for LEH in region 7B are you also advocating for a reduction in the AAH. If the AAH was not reduced then what would be the point. Currently is not the percentage of sheep being taken roughly the same as during the 12,000 sheep 300+ days? On another note do you believe with the increased competition from other species these days that the appropriate habitat could handle 12,000 sheep?

[willy442]

Willy, while advocating for LEH in region 7B are you also advocating for a reduction in the AAH. If the AAH was not reduced then what would be the point. Currently is not the percentage of sheep being taken roughly the same as during the 12,000 sheep 300+ days? On another note do you believe with the increased competition from other species these days that the appropriate habitat could handle 12,000 sheep?

It may not take a reduction in the number of sheep harvested. I'm looking more at dispersing the hunters over the entire population of sheep instead of having masses where the access is easy. Harvest numbers and quality of rams have both dropped off over the years. I support leh on SS period over the entire population for the above reason. If this is done soon we still have decent enough numbers that we can possibly bring populations back some what and maintain very good sheep hunting. The habitat is still there, most of it untouched, predators are a huge problem. The longer we leave it the less we have to work with in the end.

The biggest thing I'm against with most Sheep hunters on this site and in the Province period is the arguement ( we are residents, we are entitled). Please tell me how this works for sheep management. At some point people are going to have to put greed aside and work towards enhancement, this goes for all parties involved not just the resident.

[Ambush]

How many Stone's are taken each year by; Residents =
Non-residents =

Are ratios consistant over the past 20 years?

[bridger]

In my opinion leh wont spread resident hunting pressure out as the only reason resident harvest is concentrated is because most of 7b is inaccessible to the average resident hunter. to lower the harvest effectivly we need to reduce the non resident quotas where residents have access. ie colt lake, stone mtn, the toad etc. All leh will do is lower the resident harvest and increase non resident quota in the long run. i am not arguing over who kills the last ram as i said before the moe sets the annual allowable harvest. I just don't think it is fair that non residents have a better opportunity than the guys who live here do. If you want to see a real injustice look at the harvest data and quotas from region 6. the non resident quota has automatically been increased by 20% annually for years. our guys are really getting the short end over there. as far as the 300 sheep harvest goes I think the ony time we did that was just after the wolf reduction program in the 80's.

[6616]

LEH might spread out or reduce the ram harvest overall, but why would we assume that the ram harvest is responsible for the decline in numbers over the last several decades, and that LEH would reverse that trend.

If the ewes are getting bred it's probably not the ram harvest (sperm supply) that is responsible. Population expansions/declines cannot be effected by male harvest alone. The decline is probably due to high female and primarily high lamb mortality. This means wolves...not resident hunters are the most likely culprit..!

The populations did rebound after the wolf control of the 80's and lamb survival increased dramatically along with caribou calf survival, unfortunatelly only for a short time untilthe wolf population rebounded. This should tell us something...!

Why are there so many wolves? It probably has something to do with the much higher elk populations as compared to several decades ago. Elk not only encourage a high wolf population but also compete with sheep for habitat. We can have the elk and sheep both, but in order to do that we would need to control the wolf population.

[Deaddog]

Clearly the population is at adequate levels, yes it was higher when predator control was heavy, however in regards to a natural cycle it seems to be doing fine, the harvesting of 180 legal rams is not negatively effecting the population either. While there are a few areas of concern due to easier access, LEH is the last resort, there are numerous other options prior to this and only for those few areas of concern.

[willy442]

LEH might spread out or reduce the ram harvest overall, but why would we assume that the ram harvest is responsible for the decline in numbers over the last several decades, and that LEH would reverse that trend.

If the ewes are getting bred it's probably not the ram harvest (sperm supply) that is responsible. Population expansions/declines cannot be effected by male harvest alone. The decline is probably due to high female and primarily high lamb mortality. This means wolves...not resident hunters are the most likely culprit..!

The populations did rebound after the wolf control of the 80's and lamb survival increased dramatically along with caribou calf survival, unfortunatelly only for a short time untilthe wolf population rebounded. This should tell us something...!

Why are there so many wolves? It probably has something to do with the much higher elk populations as compared to several decades ago. Elk not only encourage a high wolf population but also compete with sheep for habitat. We can have the elk and sheep both, but in order to do that we would need to control the wolf population.

If you read my earlier post, you would see that I put the blame on predators as number one, not hunters. In the 70's and early 80's we had what was probably the best wolf control program you could get. The Guide Outfitters taking care of the problem within each individual area. Unfortunately we will never see that again as the risks of doing so at present and getting caught are to severe. I'm not all that knowledgeable about wolves and Elk, but as hearty as the Elk are I would presume the Moose, Caribou and Sheep are hit harder (not sure). When I think back to the burning of the hills down at the Toad Hotsprings for horse pasture, which is what first brought the Elk into that area. It seemed the wolf numbers were about the same as other area's free of Elk. The Elk have taken over some of the Sheep territory though and has had a big effect in some area's.

Predator control is definately the most major issue and the hardest to over come today, agreed.

[6616]

Clearly the population is at adequate levels, yes it was higher when predator control was heavy, however in regards to a natural cycle it seems to be doing fine, the harvesting of 180 legal rams is not negatively effecting the population either. While there are a few areas of concern due to easier access, LEH is the last resort, there are numerous other options prior to this and only for those few areas of concern.

I would much sooner see the population back at 12000 like it used to be, but I agree, harvesting 180 rams out of a population of 5000 to 7000 (a harvest rate of 2.5 to 3.5 %) is very unlikely to be causing the population decline. One could probably stop hunting altogether and the population would still continue to decline because the decline is not driven by hunting.

It's much more likely that lamb survival and recruitment is what we need to look at, and that points directly to predation, habitat, disease, or competition from elk, and quite likely a combination and interaction of two or more of these factors.

The fact that it's a trend that has been continuing for 30 years through all severity levels of winters indicates it's not likely winter die-offs or disease that are the cause.

My gut tells me it's a high wolf population, quite possibly driven by higher then normal elk numbers, and Region 7b is certainly not the only area, nor are Stone Sheep the only species in BC suffering from similar issues.

[willy442]

In my opinion leh wont spread resident hunting pressure out as the only reason resident harvest is concentrated is because most of 7b is inaccessible to the average resident hunter. to lower the harvest effectivly we need to reduce the non resident quotas where residents have access. ie colt lake, stone mtn, the toad etc. All leh will do is lower the resident harvest and increase non resident quota in the long run. i am not arguing over who kills the last ram as i said before the moe sets the annual allowable harvest. I just don't think it is fair that non residents have a better opportunity than the guys who live here do. If you want to see a real injustice look at the harvest data and quotas from region 6. the non resident quota has automatically been increased by 20% annually for years. our guys are really getting the short end over there. as far as the 300 sheep harvest goes I think the ony time we did that was just after the wolf reduction program in the 80's.

Bridger: I have no problem with the accessable area's being made into resident only area's. In fact I would even support this, if it was to happen though I still believe if there was not some form of restriction, we would be shooting our self in the foot. Probably one of the best sheep harvest tools we had was the 8 year old rule of a few years ago. When if you took a mature Ram you could hunt again the following year and if not you had to wait for 3.

To leave these accessible area's as totally open as they are now, we have the G/O's hitting them hard in early August to beat the resident and the resident shooting the 6 and 7 year olds because that's what is left. To me the old issue of who gets what share has no place in sheep management and if that political issue continues in the same manner as it has in the past. We are going to continue to go down hill on our sheep numbers.

The other area's in 7b that you refer to as unaccessable, I disagree. You know yourself if you want to get somewhere you'll do it one way or another. Look at yourself for example, you invested in horses and pack equipment to assist you in getting into the area's you hunted. I see no reason why others cannot do the same. Also today we have the resident packers licenced and providing transportation, you've got a bigger choice of charter companies then was ever available a few years ago. The means of access are there to be used. The part the resident don't like is the fact that it costs money. Sorry but in my opinion our sheep are worth what it costs even to a resident.

[daycort]

I think another predator issue as far as control is that there is not as many trappers going out and just plain old trapping anymore. I know a few still do, but not like it was 20 or 30 years ago. The old timers did pretty good with wolves back in the day. I am sure the price of fur has something to do with it as well.

As far as elk destroying sheep habitat what about the bison in the lower stone sheep ranges?? I think that the bison do more population damage then anything else say from the sikanni to just south of the halfway. They just don't eat the grass the pull the roots when grazing.

I personally think sheep numbers are still high enough for a harvest and if the moe says the poulation is droping, then get rid of non residents harvest and then on to the dreaded leh thing.

[6616]

To me the old issue of who gets what share has no place in sheep management

I don't know how (in all fairness to BC residents) we can realistically avoid that discussion in the management of any species?

[6616]

To me the old issue of who gets what share has no place in sheep management

Actually I would agree with you. Sheep biologists/managers need to take care of and concern themselves with habitat, recuitment, calf survival, population viability, etc. It's their responsibility to establish a sustainable AAH and not concern themselves with who shoots the sheep as long as the AAH is not exceeded because that doesn't really matter to the biology and sustainability of the sheep population.

The decision about who shoots what share of the AAH is a decision that must eventually be made, but it's strictly a social decision and not a biological decision that managers should be making.

[willy442]

Actually I would agree with you. Sheep biologists/managers need to take care of and concern themselves with habitat, recuitment, calf survival, population viability, etc. It's their responsibility to establish a sustainable AAH and not concern themselves with who shoots the sheep as long as the AAH is not exceeded because that doesn't really matter to the biology and sustainability of the sheep population.

The decision about who shoots what share of the AAH is a decision that must eventually be made, but it's strictly a social decision and not a biological decision that managers should be making.

Exactly; you are now seeing where I'm coming from. Let the BCWF, GOABC, and First Nations fight over that. The management and enhancement of Sheep is a seperate issue. It is also the responsibility of the managers to implement regulations to insure that the allowable harvest is taken over the entire population. There are ways of doing this including administering AAH independantly in each management unit. Montana did this and I believe still does. The draw back to there system was you had to have a two way radio. You went out hunting and had to report all kills right away. When the allowable harvest was reached, they put out a radio call to everyone shutting down the season. I'm sure we could come up with a system that was better but still worked.

[willy442]

I think another predator issue as far as control is that there is not as many trappers going out and just plain old trapping anymore. I know a few still do, but not like it was 20 or 30 years ago. The old timers did pretty good with wolves back in the day. I am sure the price of fur has something to do with it as well.

As far as elk destroying sheep habitat what about the bison in the lower stone sheep ranges?? I think that the bison do more population damage then anything else say from the sikanni to just south of the halfway. They just don't eat the grass the pull the roots when grazing.

I personally think sheep numbers are still high enough for a harvest and if the moe says the poulation is droping, then get rid of non residents harvest and then on to the dreaded leh thing.

Daycourt; I don't disagree with the fact that we can still hunt Sheep with a decent AAH. My concern is that we continually keep loosing in herd numbers witch eventually, will affect the AAH. I am tired of watching this happen over such a long period of time. It's damn well time these drops level off and we start seeing some results from the people we have educated to take care of these enviromental concerns. If we need predator control like we all agree then lets get focused and going after it, before all we have left is wolves. One thing that really irks me and I'm sure Bridger can attest to it also is the fact, that we see the exact conversations being voiced now as we did 25 years ago regarding Sheep. Granted it's a new generation out there, but we really haven't made much for gains, with people sitting hung up fighting over shares.

[boxhitch]

I don't know how many sheep you have watched but from post I presume not many.
Just a couple
These younger Rams will wander around lost usually waiting for a new leader to take over as you say. The point I'm making is very often that new leader may not be one that will lead the group to safety after the rut and into winter. This is where the remaining old Rams after hunting season really come into play.
So if in fact there has been a massive die-off of rams in the last 20 years or so, you are suggesting the hunting of rams is to blame ?
The available ewes are getting pregnant, are they not ? Are only the dumb procreating ?
Has an animal that has survived since the last ice age succumbed to behaviour changes and instict traits being lost due to hunting a couple of hundred rams ?
Also how much thinhorn Sheep winter range have you flown and observed?
Not as much as I would have liked.
Have you witnessed ram die-offs attributed to lack of monarchial leadership ?
Also, in your view, how is it that the very areas that are getting the highest hunting pressure, and the highest harvest numbers are sustaining the populations of sheep ?

[srupp]

WOW! Great reading! And some very passionate views as well as knowlegable experienced individuals...I appreciate Willy 442 and his vast amount of in the field knowlege as well as bcrams and Deaddog and the likes of such..I have read the V Geist book many many times and his field notes and statistics of stone sheep @ Gladys lake...

I know from Cali sheep that sometimes whole groups of them "dissapear" and surface in the most unexpected places due to preditors both 2 legged and 4 legged species..
Some of the places I have hunted stone sheep the pressure has been overwhelming..much more than any other big game animal I have ever hunted..seeing 12 seperate hunters in ONE DAY is a bit concerning for the species and yet on fly in hunts havnt seen another hunter(again hunting sheep)
I talked with a field biologist doing moose counts in the west Chilcotin..and I asked him how the #'s looked he went on to say they saw X amount of moose..and that "meant" there were this many bulls, this many cows, this many dead animals and this many poached moose..etc etc...and the #'s were WAY WAY WAY DOWN...SEVERAL WEEKS LATER they flew in a slightly different direction and found over 100 moose in one small valley that the moose had never ever wintered in "historically" suddenly all the #'s changed... statistics can prove anything 100 % of the individuals that ate pickles in 1855 are now dead..does this prove pickles are dangerous??lol..extrapolation of #;s doesnt seem very accurate...

Seeing x amount of animals means you saw this amount of animals, by missing 5 sheep this could skew the reults dramatically HOWEVER I do believe Willy442 that the #'s are way down..he has spent far more time than I have amongst them..

The recent GO ruling about his quotas demonstrates the value of these majestic animals to the province sad that the preditors are not harvested more and the government truly act on these animals behalf..

I personally would hate to see LEH..after so many years of going after these monarchs of the mountains and so far failing to harvest a exceptional stone and turning down "iffy" imature rams..I would hate to see my chances of ever getting a stone eliminated to a "chance"..at a tag..

Perhaps by imposing a one ram in 3 year rule..for residents and slightly reducing the GO this might take some of the pressure off???Its a question...

great read...

cheers


Steven

[willy442]

Not as much as I would have liked.
Have you witnessed ram die-offs attributed to lack of monarchial leadership ?
Also, in your view, how is it that the very areas that are getting the highest hunting pressure, and the highest harvest numbers are sustaining the populations of sheep ?


Yes as a matter of fact I have seen small groups of Rams not return to thier normal winter range. In fact on one such occassion while flying with my father in January, we found 5 rams all what you would refer to as class III cornered against some cliff faces by 11 wolves. One Ram had already been killed by them and was being eaten. We buzzed the shit out of the pack until they dispersed then we did the same to the sheep a couple of times until they ran out onto the ridge. This particular mountain has never been winter range and in reality that group of Rams should not have been there at that time. Our old area had almost no winter range within it's boundaries and yes I have seen young rams fail to leave the high rough mountains due to lack of leadership. Sorry to burst your bubble but I would not have made the statement if I had not seen it take place.
Where do you get your info that the hardest hit area's are sustaining the numbers of sheep? I could show you at least 5 places between the Tetsa River and the Liard along the highway where class IV rams were abundant at one time now all you ever see in these locations are ewes, lambs and young rams. The class IV's are no longer. The Nonda creek rd is a prime example for one. I'm not going to disclose the others.

[Ambush]

Some problems for sheep hunters:

From reading this and other sheep threads, it seems there is some common ground.

First, most agree that predation is the main culprit in the decline of sheep numbers.
My numbers may be somewhat skewed, but close enough for this excercise.

There are about 3 million people in BC. Supossedly some eighty thousand hunters. If five percent of those hunters are sheep hunters, then thats about four thousand hunters. That is .14 percent of the population of BC.
To be clear, that is, point one four percent.

What government is going to risk the ire of 98.6% of the population to appease the .14%.

So to wait for a sanctioned wolf reduction program from govenment is to wait forever.

Lets also be clear that most of the hunters in BC are really not that concerned with sheep numbers. They hunt deer, elk, moose and bears and there's no shortages there.

So it's up to .14% of residents and the G/O to manage or lobby for sheep.

Second agreeable point seems to be that habitat destruction by elk is a major contributer.

Third is that hunters are making a negligable impact on herd numbers.

A fourth one could be lack of range enhancement.

The predation problem may have to be dealt with through to back door.

As a business, the G/O may be able to wrangle a permit to do predator control, from a sensible and sympathetic area manager. If that could happen, then sheep hunters would have to dig into their pockets and help fund that effort. Hit the wolves hard and fast, before the antis can kick up a fuss.

Range enhancement could be done easier, without fear of interference from the antis. Once again you need cooperation from officials and money.

[willy442]

Some problems for sheep hunters:

From reading this and other sheep threads, it seems there is some common ground.

First, most agree that predation is the main culprit in the decline of sheep numbers.
My numbers may be somewhat skewed, but close enough for this excercise.

There are about 3 million people in BC. Supossedly some eighty thousand hunters. If five percent of those hunters are sheep hunters, then thats about four thousand hunters. That is .14 percent of the population of BC.
To be clear, that is, point one four percent.

What government is going to risk the ire of 98.6% of the population to appease the .14%.

So to wait for a sanctioned wolf reduction program from govenment is to wait forever.

Lets also be clear that most of the hunters in BC are really not that concerned with sheep numbers. They hunt deer, elk, moose and bears and there's no shortages there.

So it's up to .14% of residents and the G/O to manage or lobby for sheep.

Second agreeable point seems to be that habitat destruction by elk is a major contributer.

Third is that hunters are making a negligable impact on herd numbers.

A fourth one could be lack of range enhancement.

The predation problem may have to be dealt with through to back door.

As a business, the G/O may be able to wrangle a permit to do predator control, from a sensible and sympathetic area manager. If that could happen, then sheep hunters would have to dig into their pockets and help fund that effort. Hit the wolves hard and fast, before the antis can kick up a fuss.

Range enhancement could be done easier, without fear of interference from the antis. Once again you need cooperation from officials and money.

Now you see why I have no use for the who gets what share arguement. All sheep hunters have to be on the same path for sheep and a decline in predators. The share issue's can follow. To put it plan and simple NO SHEEP NO SHARE's. The other matter is we cannot look at declining herd numbers and accept the claim that numbers are high or stable.

[goatdancer]

Lots of interesting and informative stuff on this thread. Contrary to a previous thread where I brought up the issue of wolf predation, this thread seems to indicate that wolves are a serious problem. I would like a simple answer, if such a thing is possible when discussing sheep on this forum, are wolves a serious problem or not? If so, is any pressure being applied to MOE to deal with the problem?

willy442 - sorry bud but I don't have the resources (financial) or the luxury of 25 more years of hunting to be able to spend the effort to get a mature ram. I still don't get the concept of holding out for a mature ram when those are the ones that are supposed to be the leaders that help the younger ones survive. Seems like a contradiction.

[boxhitch]

Yes as a matter of fact I have seen small groups of Rams not return to thier normal winter range. In fact on one such occassion while flying with my father in January, we found 5 rams all what you would refer to as class III cornered against some cliff faces by 11 wolves. One Ram had already been killed by them and was being eaten. We buzzed the shit out of the pack until they dispersed then we did the same to the sheep a couple of times until they ran out onto the ridge. This particular mountain has never been winter range and in reality that group of Rams should not have been there at that time. Our old area had almost no winter range within it's boundaries and yes I have seen young rams fail to leave the high rough mountains due to lack of leadership. Sorry to burst your bubble but I would not have made the statement if I had not seen it take place.
So when would that have happened ? 20 years ago ? Its a wonder there are any rams left.
No such bubble, bub. I am trying to keep an open mind to your ideas, so am asking questions. Why be sensitive ?
I never suspected that the trophy hunting of large rams had such a negative effect on a ram population, like you imply.
Most species of ungulates have a tendency to wander looking for new habitat and some don't find it and feed the crows. Skeletons of large elk have been found in the Cassiars, victims of winterkill. Its good that the ewes have more sense.
Where do you get your info that the hardest hit area's are sustaining the numbers of sheep? I could show you at least 5 places between the Tetsa River and the Liard along the highway where class IV rams were abundant at one time now all you ever see in these locations are ewes, lambs and young rams. The class IV's are no longer. The Nonda creek rd is a prime example for one. I'm not going to disclose the others.
IIRC the highest harvest is in that same area, and west to muncho and has been for several years.

[willy442]

Lots of interesting and informative stuff on this thread. Contrary to a previous thread where I brought up the issue of wolf predation, this thread seems to indicate that wolves are a serious problem. I would like a simple answer, if such a thing is possible when discussing sheep on this forum, are wolves a serious problem or not? If so, is any pressure being applied to MOE to deal with the problem?

willy442 - sorry bud but I don't have the resources (financial) or the luxury of 25 more years of hunting to be able to spend the effort to get a mature ram. I still don't get the concept of holding out for a mature ram when those are the ones that are supposed to be the leaders that help the younger ones survive. Seems like a contradiction.

Yes in my opinion wolves are a very serious problem, one that is growing continually. I forget who but I remember a study put out showing that full grown wolves require about 20 pds of meat every three days to exist. I really don't know if it is right or wrong but I do know they kill alot of game in many area's of the province.

As for your mention of the sheep. I understand where you are coming from and I really have no issue with a fellow taking a full curl ram of what ever age. The part I dislike is watching the same people do it year after year. I know the concept is confusing. If you think about it though it can and will make sense. The class III rams are the hardest hit by mother nature, this is due primarily to the rut and thier carrying on during that time with the months of winter hitting right after. With thier mortality rate being high and then the MOE making it legal to hunt them we actually never allow them to become class IV. This has gone on now for too long and our class IV rams are very low in numbers. One thing that could and would help a little is if the ministry was to realize that most broomed rams in the thin horns are over 8 and should be legal rams. The rule of seeing 8 rings is a joke when looking at these sheep. The other thing is we need to see more class III rams grow to be class IV and then the age of harvest and trophy quality would look alot better.

[willy442]

IIRC the highest harvest is in that same area, and west to muncho and has been for several years.

I don't believe that when it happened makes a damn bit of difference. The mountains haven't changed and wolves still eat red meat. To answer your question though it would have been in the early 80's on the wolves. As for seeing rams not returning to winter range, we seen it happen quite often through out the time we were in business and constantly flying and doing our own game and predator counts within the boundaries of our area. So you could say from 1962 to 1993.

As for your piece on high harvest, the area you refer to is not within our old boundaries, but yes it is an area that has been hard hit and will continue to be unless changes are made. To many it's all about money and access as you know.

[boxhitch]

The other matter is we cannot look at declining herd numbers and accept the claim that numbers are high or stable.The MOE does not have a recovery plan for Stone's sheep as they do not have a target population number to work toward. The thought is that the current population numbers are near those from the era before the intensive predator control of the 70's. That the numbers during that control period were artificially high, and cannot be attained nor is it required.

Pocket population numbers rise and fall with the ebb and flow of hunter, predators, weather et al. Some ram groups go on unhunted.

Overall, the managers are happy with the numbers, and do not want to micro-manage for problems. Efforts have been taken to allow hunters to attain their allocations.

Hunters should be more concerned about having lambs on the ground than the number of Cl IV rams.

[willy442]

The MOE does not have a recovery plan for Stone's sheep as they do not have a target population number to work toward. The thought is that the current population numbers are near those from the era before the intensive predator control of the 70's. That the numbers during that control period were artificially high, and cannot be attained nor is it required.

Pocket population numbers rise and fall with the ebb and flow of hunter, predators, weather et al. Some ram groups go on unhunted.

Overall, the managers are happy with the numbers, and do not want to micro-manage for problems. Efforts have been taken to allow hunters to attain their allocations.

Hunters should be more concerned about having lambs on the ground than the number of Cl IV rams.

The ministry fails to have plan only because they fail to have the funds or capability due to the political arena to do a damn thing about it. The statement that the count was artifically high prior to the wolf kill program is also bullshit. If you ever talked to people that were packing the hunters, surveyors and explorers through the Muskawa and Prophet River areas in the years prior to that. Sheep were in more abundance then any of us including myself ever saw. Also at one time back then the wolf count was so high that I have been told by some of the oldtimers that lived off what they killed (if you cut a track in the snow you better follow it and hope you got the meat before the wolves did). I hate to put things in print that I have only heard about but I worked with many of the old natives and white guy's, they all told the same story.

The rise and fall due to the factors you state are most likely somewhat correct but 50% of our sheep herd since management really became involved. I think leaves some things up for question.

The managers again in this day and age are happy about the numbers is just another political ploy, because as I stated above they had a major part in screwing it up and can't do a damn thing about it.

Sorry to sound so negative towards the regulators but heard and seen all these issue's suface before and we still loose sheep. You cannot manage off what you see as lamb crop, like a rancher manages cattle the factors are alot more volitile, You must manage all ages and classes to have any degree of success in my opinion. I still think they may do better if they were to take your suggestion and forget the sheep but manage sperm.:smile:

[Bowtime]

[quote=willy442;428276]Please explain how you figure Sheep are at very healty numbers. Because GG and a few others tell you? Have you not read the posts saying we have lost over 50% in the past few years? Limiting people is all LEH will do, I agree and strongly believe it is the best solution. Please explain to me why a person needs to shoot a bunch of Stone Sheep. [quote]

I find it hard to believe we have lost over 50% in the past few years Willy. And you think thats because of hunting?? There is area out there that is untouched by resident hunters. Just because it isn't like how it was back in the day doesn't mean it's bad. I am a resident hunter and I will fight for the right for us to kill a sheep every year if one chooses. Doesn't mean I will. I have passed up many sheep in my short life Willy.

[karlgotch]

I really have no issue with a fellow taking a full curl ram of what ever age. The part I dislike is watching the same people do it year after year... we need to see more class III rams grow to be class IV and then the age of harvest and trophy quality would look alot better.

I gotta agree with ol' Willy on those words. I'd like to see the class III rams have some pressure relieved. One example I like to bring up is Spatsizi - always had a strong wolf population, yet has had good #'s of mature rams. Hunting pressure on cl III rams plays a huge role.

The glory days of the mature rams are over. I remember coming into camp with a 37'', 9 year old ram my first year guiding sheep hunters (1969), and the boss was pretty upset at me for taking a 'young' ram.

I've seen the expectations among today's sheep hunters dwindle down to any full curl ram being a trophy.

The problem as I see it, is that not many hunters can effectively age a ram in the field, hence full curl being the standard for legal. Full curl is a pretty solid way of identifying a ram - he either is or he isn't - so that seems to be the safest way to go. Too bad many of the 'just full curl rams' are class III, and are legal kills.

I'd like to suggest a solution, but I'm not that smart.:-P I would not support LEH though, for a few reasons.

[willy442]

[quote=willy442;428276]Please explain how you figure Sheep are at very healty numbers. Because GG and a few others tell you? Have you not read the posts saying we have lost over 50% in the past few years? Limiting people is all LEH will do, I agree and strongly believe it is the best solution. Please explain to me why a person needs to shoot a bunch of Stone Sheep. [quote]

I find it hard to believe we have lost over 50% in the past few years Willy. And you think thats because of hunting?? There is area out there that is untouched by resident hunters. Just because it isn't like how it was back in the day doesn't mean it's bad. I am a resident hunter and I will fight for the right for us to kill a sheep every year if one chooses. Doesn't mean I will. I have passed up many sheep in my short life Willy.

Bow time; If you can reread the posts made on this topic you will see that in fact we have lost over 50% of our thin horn sheep population in the Peace Region in recent years. Then if you continue reading, you will see that what I said was WE HAVE LOST THEM FIRST TO PREDATORS. 2ND TO HUNTING. 3RD TO LOSS OF HABITAT AND OTHER SPECIES. Also if you continue reading you will see that what I said was yes we still have enough sheep to hunt and we will continue to have if we start taking care of them. I am not going to support anyone who wants to take a SS every year. If you like to sheep hunt we have many other sheep in the province and the ability to hunt them as residents. Can you not maybe try hunting for a BC slam instead of concentrating on one species? I agree there is area out there unhunted by residents and in my opinion the only reason it isn't is because of access, if this is the case let the G/O's hunt it.

[bridger]

Lots of interesting and informative stuff on this thread. Contrary to a previous thread where I brought up the issue of wolf predation, this thread seems to indicate that wolves are a serious problem. I would like a simple answer, if such a thing is possible when discussing sheep on this forum, are wolves a serious problem or not? If so, is any pressure being applied to MOE to deal with the problem?

willy442 - sorry bud but I don't have the resources (financial) or the luxury of 25 more years of hunting to be able to spend the effort to get a mature ram. I still don't get the concept of holding out for a mature ram when those are the ones that are supposed to be the leaders that help the younger ones survive. Seems like a contradiction.

in the 1980's the moe with the support of the bcwf and the goabc conducted a wolf management program in region 7b over two winters using helicopters. in the two winters they reduced the wolf population considerably. in the ensung years the sheep population doubled and the annual harvest was over 300 rams a year or so and close to it other years. as the wolf population rebounded the sheep population declined. to where the allowable harvest is now under 200. seems pretty clear to me.

[bridger]

[quote=willy442;428276]Please explain how you figure Sheep are at very healty numbers. Because GG and a few others tell you? Have you not read the posts saying we have lost over 50% in the past few years? Limiting people is all LEH will do, I agree and strongly believe it is the best solution. Please explain to me why a person needs to shoot a bunch of Stone Sheep. [quote]

I find it hard to believe we have lost over 50% in the past few years Willy. And you think thats because of hunting?? There is area out there that is untouched by resident hunters. Just because it isn't like how it was back in the day doesn't mean it's bad. I am a resident hunter and I will fight for the right for us to kill a sheep every year if one chooses. Doesn't mean I will. I have passed up many sheep in my short life Willy.

bowtime it is a well documented fact that the sheep population is about half of what it was after the wolf kill in the 80's. no doubt about it. i have hunted sheep in 7b each year since 1966 sometimes twice a year and can personally verify it. another more significant clue is for the last few years the outfitters have not been able to fill their sheep quota's wherein past years the filled them mostly with class four rams. the first time we hunted the Besa river area in the mid 70's we saw 47 full curl rams and over 300 ewes and lambs in 10 days. the last few years the outfitter (one of the best in the business c/w super cub) cannot fill a five ram quota. those big ewe groups did not disappear from hunting.

[boxhitch]

[quote=willy442;428276]
I find it hard to believe we have lost over 50% in the past few years Willy. And you think thats because of hunting?? Believe it. Steady decline for over 15 years, according to inventories. And the reasons are varied. Killing 150 rams a year has to have some effect on totals, but not necessarily on lamb recruitment.

[325 wsm]

Willy.... Totally with you on the LEH in over pressured areas. Less hunters on the mountain mean less sheep being scared into unfamiliar and dangerous territory. Less hunters means better hunting for those that do get an LEH. GO's will also have to take a decline in harvest #'s in these area's but the law of supply and demand ripples quickly in the sheep hunting field and prices will soon go up to compensate them. Dedicated sheep hunters that don't get an LEH will still be stubborn enough to go look at new places.
So who wins with LEH..... as Willy has been trying to say.... the SHEEP !

[boxhitch]

325, sounds easy until you consider enforcement.
Where is the line drawn ?
How are hunters accounted for ?
But maybe if all rams were micro-chipped and all hunters were GPS tracked .......:)

[325 wsm]

Enforcement works the same way it does now....they call poaching ....
well... poaching.

[325 wsm]

Lines are drawn around game management units already in place

[Maxx]

[quote=Bowtime;428820][quote=willy442;428276]Please explain how you figure Sheep are at very healty numbers. Because GG and a few others tell you? Have you not read the posts saying we have lost over 50% in the past few years? Limiting people is all LEH will do, I agree and strongly believe it is the best solution. Please explain to me why a person needs to shoot a bunch of Stone Sheep.

bowtime it is a well documented fact that the sheep population is about half of what it was after the wolf kill in the 80's. no doubt about it. i have hunted sheep in 7b each year since 1966 sometimes twice a year and can personally verify it. another more significant clue is for the last few years the outfitters have not been able to fill their sheep quota's wherein past years the filled them mostly with class four rams. the first time we hunted the Besa river area in the mid 70's we saw 47 full curl rams and over 300 ewes and lambs in 10 days. the last few years the outfitter (one of the best in the business c/w super cub) cannot fill a five ram quota. those big ewe groups did not disappear from hunting.


so, bring back the wolf cull, we spend all this time arguing about resident vs non-resident allocation, and who gets to kill what sheep....all the while the wolves are killing HUNDREDS of sheep each year- what goverment will have the guts to put the wolves in their place??? Are the biologists asleep? Are the pushing for this? Or are they just ignorant, or being stopped by the brains in Victoria?

The way I see it, us "hunters" are no way as efficient as the best hunters in the bush, and they don't have season restrictions to follow, kil 100 wolves, save 500 sheep.....

[325 wsm]

Hunters are accounted for after the hunt with paperwork (where, when, etc.)

[boxhitch]

But, realistically,
-considering the small area that rams are perceived to be over-pressured,
-compared to the enormous area of total habitat,
-and the broad distribution of a population number that is acceptable in total,
-and the ability of hunters to adapt and be mobile throughout that area,
-and the fact there are unhunted pocket populations,
Why should any one area get special attention ?

[bridger]

this discussion can go on for ever, but i think willy will agree that some knowledgible people feel our most effective wild life management in 7b was done by the old time outfitters. they didn't see wildlife management as rocket science and didn't spend big bucks and years studying the problem. they simply poisoned wolves in the winter and burned the south facing slopes in the spring. simple plan, cost effective, and produced results. I know those days of living right and being free as the saying goes are over, but that bit of old history really points to the problem of stone sheep management in 7b. We talk and study and really don't do much constructively to increase sheep Realistically until we have a reduction in predators we probably won't see much in the way of population increases no matter what we say or do. As far as habitat enhancement goes the moe has done a ton of burning winter and summer sheep ranges over the years. also interesting is the fact the 7-52 holds the bulk of the stone sheep now. many people are not aware that up until a year or so ago the moe was quietly capturing and neutering the alpha males and females in the wolf packs in 7-52. with the retirement of our former biologist in 7b this program has been dropped for whatever reason. predator control and viable sheep populations seem to go hand in hand.

[boxhitch]

Lines are drawn around game management units already in placeThe areas of high effort are a small portion of several large MU's. Creating smaller sub-MU's may help but is always frowned upon as it complicates the regulations and enforcement, by all sides of the table.

[Krico]

Well I see the 1 ram in 3 year rule has been suggested yet again, a few pages back. I don't see how anyone can make a good case for it. G/O outfits love it because it splits up resident hunting parties - they shoot one ram, and then 2 or 3 hunters are all out for 3 years, effectively accomplishing the same thing as LEH. Most guys won't fork out the bucks required to go on a sheep hunt if they can't at least buy a tag. Most will fork out the bucks to hunt with their buddies even if they are number 2 or 3 to shoot. The last success ratios I saw for sheep hunters (not sure if this includes guided hunters or not) was below 20%. Based on those stats, the average guy will shoot a ram less than once every 5 hunts already-I don't see the issue... A non-resident can come up and hunt with an outfitter every single year, regardless of a 1 in 3 rule for residents...and please nobody enlighten me with the fact that a BC resident could pay for the same services every year.

[boxhitch]

bridger, could one also say that currently the most effective management is being conducted by those G/O's that have the interest, money and ability to act in their own areas ? Not waving a flag here, but some G/O's are spending time and money on range burns, trapping, and ungulate enhancement. I think efforts on the east slope are up this last couple of years ?
Now if we could just get rid of some more elk and bison.......

[BCrams]

Along with the wolf neuturing program and sheep numbers in 7-52........ I am particularly interested to see what will happen with the Kechika elk population as they increase their numbers and spread their range.

What we have witnessed on the east slopes regarding range enhancement for elk within sheep winter range etc ....... is just going to repeat itself.

The wolf work up the Turnagain might also explain the influx of elk moving up river and can now be seen way up near hanging around where Dall River enters. Not to mention the opening of elk season on that side of the kechika River for the first time last fall.

I am sure there are some folks out there who are wishing the elk transplants never happened in '84 along the Kechika in the first place.

Now speaking of elk on the Kechika........probably best for another thread....... why is there only a 10 day 6 pt bull elk season?

[Ambush]

Years ago, east of Prince George, there were lots of caribou and few moose. The wolves and to a lesser extent, grizzlies used caribou as there primary food source. Wolves had trouble accessing the caribou during the deep snow conditions of winter and so their numbers were kept in check by available food. Logging allowed moose to flourish. Now the wolves could eat moose all winter and then hit the caribou again in the spring. The caribou, which the wolves seemed to prefer, couldn't withstand the added pressure of increased wolf numbers. We all know where the carbou herd is now.

Range enhancements for sheep will also benefit elk. Elk will flourish, and so will wolves. Wolves will take the easiest meal, which is likely the sheep. They will eat elk when thats whats available and the packs will remain strong.

I lived in Canmore Aberta for a few years in the seventies. There was a valley called Windy Valley, so named because it was windy. It had one very large slope that would be blown clean all winter long, and attracted alot of elk, deer and bighorn sheep. Sometimes you could see two hundred animals at once.
They fed side by side. But when spooked the elk were the first ones to hit the trees by sheer speed. If a pack of wolves were to hit this mixture of meat, I think the sheep would be the easiest and prefered target.

I guess I'm saying that range enhancement without predator control may even be detrimental to the sheep herds.

If you're feeding the sheep, you're feeding the elk, then you're feeding the wolves.

Bottom line IMO, if you want more sheep for hunting, you will have to kill wolves. And keep killing wolves. Or be happy with boom and bust cycles and hit or miss hunting.

My opinion, but the choice is not mine to make.

[PGK]

^^ Or pound the crap out of the elk and keep them down. Unfortunately, not many guys are going to hit up the Kechika for an elk meat hunt....

[ElkMasterC]

Seems to be a cycle across many regions and threads, where we interfere with the cycle by logging and making access roads, and encourage wolf populations, by inflating numbers of alternate food source species, ie Moose, Elk, etc.
Maybe the day is coming where we need to dump a wolf or cougar before we get our Sheep or Elk tag. We upset the balance that much, that I really think people have to do more predator hunting. Myself included.
Off to get some dawgs.

[willy442]

Well I see the 1 ram in 3 year rule has been suggested yet again, a few pages back. I don't see how anyone can make a good case for it. G/O outfits love it because it splits up resident hunting parties - they shoot one ram, and then 2 or 3 hunters are all out for 3 years, effectively accomplishing the same thing as LEH. Most guys won't fork out the bucks required to go on a sheep hunt if they can't at least buy a tag. Most will fork out the bucks to hunt with their buddies even if they are number 2 or 3 to shoot. The last success ratios I saw for sheep hunters (not sure if this includes guided hunters or not) was below 20%. Based on those stats, the average guy will shoot a ram less than once every 5 hunts already-I don't see the issue... A non-resident can come up and hunt with an outfitter every single year, regardless of a 1 in 3 rule for residents...and please nobody enlighten me with the fact that a BC resident could pay for the same services every year.

Thanks for the input but this thread has moved way beyond the scope of your post. I think most on here have agreed we are talking about sheep enhancement, not shares.

[BCRiverBoater]

How funny this is. Every seasoned hunter or guide like Willy and Bridger and all my relatives who guided for years say the same thing. Predators and habitat are key for sheep. Yet for political reasons the government refuses to stand up and tell the province how it truly is and stand up to Victoria and its tree hugging supporters. We have had decent biologists and weak ones. It shows so clearly when we had strong ones that stood up for themselves, the hunter, the G/O's and this province.

It is so simple by talking to anyone with have a brain or any history with sheep hunting. Knock back the wolves or predators and they will be just fine. We spend so much time beating each other up when we all know the solution.

The old time G/O's knew what they were doing and took matters into their own hands and it worked. Read any old book on any of the old time true outfitters and they talk about trapping all winter, poisoning and using planes. Guess what they had game and game to spare. Yes pressure was down but they had way more game then we have hunters today.

Read the book on Skooke and Cooke. They one line that stood out was we can have predators or hunters but not both. You need to keep one of them or both under control. This came from a guy who had more large rams taken then most could dream of. The statement came in the 90's whihc was years after done guiding. Who is the expert. The old time guy who lives 30 years in the bush studying them and watching them like Willy, Bridger and the G/O's or some politician in Victoria who just got elected and wants another term.

So simple yet so hard to prove. Strange how it works yet not suprising.

[Lil Buck]

what I think most are missing though is how many stones does one hunter need to kill?in a life time?aslong as one is improving or getting old mature rams 2-3 in a life time .I know of some individuals with 8-10 and they are still going year after year....My opinion 1-3 ,1-5 is a good idea if not killing quality old sheep 9+ years .And yes for habitat and yes for predator control and yes for Burns....

[bridger]

the topic of stone sheep in the province (or for all sheep species for that matter) really has two parts in my opinion. 1) population increases and 2) the implementation of the new allocation policy which means defining the share of each residency group. We would all like to see a big increase in sheep numbers, but I think most guys understand that the real key to that is predator management and in the present political climate how likely is that going to happen. About five years ago I attended a meeting on this subject and one of the outfitters present made a very valid point when he said to the moe guys from victoria "I don't understand why when a wolf kills a cow belonging to a rancher that is worth $800 you respond by trapping or shooting the wolves, yet when a wolf kills a $30,000 stone sheep you turn a blind eye" that pretty well sums up the situation.

as for the implementation of the present allocation policy that is a thread by itself, but should probably be discussed at some point.

[Krico]

Thanks for the input but this thread has moved way beyond the scope of your post. I think most on here have agreed we are talking about sheep enhancement, not shares.

You're welcome willy. You brought it up in the first place.

Seems obvious by the posts that most on here are concerned about both enhancement and share.

[bigwhiteys]

what I think most are missing though is how many stones does one hunter need to kill?in a life time?

One of my uncles through marriage, (who has hunted with bridger) has 12 stones on the wall... Can't say I agree with or support that. That's getting greedy IMO.


aslong as one is improving or getting old mature rams 2-3 in a life time .

That's a fair number... And there aren't very many non-residents that will even do that. For most it's going to be one-in-a-lifetime.


My opinion 1-3 ,1-5 is a good idea if not killing quality old sheep 9+ years .

1 in 5 is a little harsh but I definitely support the 1 in 3 under 8, every year over 8 rule. I don't buy that it breaks up hunting parties.

Carl

[Lil Buck]

1-5 if you shoot a 5-6-7 year old barely legal ram maybe 1-3 for 8 year old 9+ giver .............lol
I thought when 1-3 was implemented the GO couldnt have repeat hunters year after year but cant remember for sure ..........

:-P

[Slee]

I know a pile of guys with 10 plus deer on thier walls is that greedy???

I think going down this road would be a huge mistake. Next you would see a max of 10 deer a lifetime, 4 moose, 1 grizz, ect, ect.

I think for the number of hunters in the province these days we should be able to manage a health huntable population years to come. I rather see LEH with odds like Alberta then see any max on a species





One of my uncles through marriage, (who has hunted with bridger) has 12 stones on the wall... Can't say I agree with or support that. That's getting greedy IMO.



That's a fair number... And there aren't very many non-residents that will even do that. For most it's going to be one-in-a-lifetime.



1 in 5 is a little harsh but I definitely support the 1 in 3 under 8, every year over 8 rule. I don't buy that it breaks up hunting parties.

Carl

[Lil Buck]

Slee you dont see my point ...
Sheep are not deer not even close in numbers....hence this thread,.
to get numbers up and sustain for my two little boys ,we as a whole have to conserve and harvest better.:p

[6616]

We would all like to see a big increase in sheep numbers, but I think most guys understand that the real key to that is predator management and in the present political climate how likely is that going to happen.

There are probably more mis-informed people in BC trying to "save the wolves" then there are hunters in BC. Wolf control, even to help the endangered remnant populations of southern Mountain Caribou is unacceptable to these quacks. Wolf control to increase sheep populations????,,,,,,,that would require a major shift in public perception.

There will be no major wolf cull or control program in 7b or any other area in BC for wolves, and these folks (below) are the reason.

http://www.canadianwolfcoalition.com/node/5 (http://www.canadianwolfcoalition.com/node/5)

http://www.markings.bc.ca/mind/wolf/links.html (http://www.markings.bc.ca/mind/wolf/links.html)

http://forestpolicyresearch.org/2009/01/18/british-columbia-forest-ethics-makes-wolf-slaughter-the-best-way-to-keep-loggers-logging/ (http://forestpolicyresearch.org/2009/01/18/british-columbia-forest-ethics-makes-wolf-slaughter-the-best-way-to-keep-loggers-logging/)

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Wolf-Buffer-Zones (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Wolf-Buffer-Zones)

http://www.protectbiodiversity.ca/media/news_item/war_on_wolves_fails_tests_of_reason_efficacy_and_m orality/ (http://www.protectbiodiversity.ca/media/news_item/war_on_wolves_fails_tests_of_reason_efficacy_and_m orality/)

http://www.travelersconservationtrust.org/_tct_old/projects/raincoast.html (http://www.travelersconservationtrust.org/_tct_old/projects/raincoast.html)

http://www.ecobc.org/NewsToday/2005/11/TodaysNews1595/index.cfm (http://www.ecobc.org/NewsToday/2005/11/TodaysNews1595/index.cfm)

[BCrams]

There will be no major wolf cull or control program in 7b or any other area in BC for wolves, and these folks (below) are the reason.



No programs per se.....but one might want to know why sheep are doing so well in some areas of Reg 6 :cool:

[bigwhiteys]

I know a pile of guys with 10 plus deer on thier walls is that greedy???

You cannot compare the two species like that...

Carl

[Slee]

So as long as wolf hunting/trapping is legal for us to do, we as a hunting community shoud be pro-active in sharing info on wolf management and hunting techniques.....




There are probably more mis-informed people in BC trying to "save the wolves" then there are hunters in BC. Wolf control, even to help the endangered remnant populations of southern Mountain Caribou is unacceptable to these quacks. Wolf control to increase sheep populations????,,,,,,,that would require a major shift in public perception.

There will be no major wolf cull or control program in 7b or any other area in BC for wolves, and these folks (below) are the reason.

http://www.canadianwolfcoalition.com/node/5 (http://www.canadianwolfcoalition.com/node/5)

http://www.markings.bc.ca/mind/wolf/links.html (http://www.markings.bc.ca/mind/wolf/links.html)

http://forestpolicyresearch.org/2009/01/18/british-columbia-forest-ethics-makes-wolf-slaughter-the-best-way-to-keep-loggers-logging/ (http://forestpolicyresearch.org/2009/01/18/british-columbia-forest-ethics-makes-wolf-slaughter-the-best-way-to-keep-loggers-logging/)

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Wolf-Buffer-Zones (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Wolf-Buffer-Zones)

http://www.protectbiodiversity.ca/media/news_item/war_on_wolves_fails_tests_of_reason_efficacy_and_m orality/ (http://www.protectbiodiversity.ca/media/news_item/war_on_wolves_fails_tests_of_reason_efficacy_and_m orality/)

http://www.travelersconservationtrust.org/_tct_old/projects/raincoast.html (http://www.travelersconservationtrust.org/_tct_old/projects/raincoast.html)

http://www.ecobc.org/NewsToday/2005/11/TodaysNews1595/index.cfm (http://www.ecobc.org/NewsToday/2005/11/TodaysNews1595/index.cfm)

[Slee]

You cannot compare the two species like that...

Carl

I know you cant, but my point is that non-hunters will compare them.........

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There are probably more mis-informed people in BC trying to "save the wolves" then there are hunters in BC. Wolf control, even to help the endangered remnant populations of southern Mountain Caribou is unacceptable to these quacks. Wolf control to increase sheep populations????,,,,,,,that would require a major shift in public perception.

There will be no major wolf cull or control program in 7b or any other area in BC for wolves, and these folks (below) are the reason.

http://www.canadianwolfcoalition.com/node/5 (http://www.canadianwolfcoalition.com/node/5)

http://www.markings.bc.ca/mind/wolf/links.html (http://www.markings.bc.ca/mind/wolf/links.html)

http://forestpolicyresearch.org/2009/01/18/british-columbia-forest-ethics-makes-wolf-slaughter-the-best-way-to-keep-loggers-logging/ (http://forestpolicyresearch.org/2009/01/18/british-columbia-forest-ethics-makes-wolf-slaughter-the-best-way-to-keep-loggers-logging/)

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Wolf-Buffer-Zones (http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Wolf-Buffer-Zones)

http://www.protectbiodiversity.ca/media/news_item/war_on_wolves_fails_tests_of_reason_efficacy_and_m orality/ (http://www.protectbiodiversity.ca/media/news_item/war_on_wolves_fails_tests_of_reason_efficacy_and_m orality/)

http://www.travelersconservationtrust.org/_tct_old/projects/raincoast.html (http://www.travelersconservationtrust.org/_tct_old/projects/raincoast.html)

http://www.ecobc.org/NewsToday/2005/11/TodaysNews1595/index.cfm (http://www.ecobc.org/NewsToday/2005/11/TodaysNews1595/index.cfm)

I've only looked at the first one and low and behold "form letters" are their method. Just sign and hit send.:mad:

Maybe we should start using their strategies.

SSS

[willy442]

No programs per se.....but one might want to know why sheep are doing so well in some areas of Reg 6 :cool:

Lift the heavy punishment levied on G/O's for predator control and it will take place effectively and quick, without the major press. They have the equipment and the knowledge to make it happen. This is the way it was until the MOE stepped in and tried to take over. The results being the helicopter cull and the arrival of Green Peace. Look where that got us, just an example of another biological blunder of our wildlife resource by book educated managers.:sad:

[6616]

No programs per se.....but one might want to know why sheep are doing so well in some areas of Reg 6 :cool:

Good point. I've never hunted sheep in Region 6 except on Todagin and I don't know much about region 6. I flew with BC/Yukon Air out of Dease several time but I always flew east into 7b.

Could it have anything to do with record high elk populations on the east slope maintaining high wolf numbers?

Is it a similar situation as what Hugh Robinson has pointed out in the southern West Kootenay regarding mule deer, white tailed deer, and wolves?

To add further to the Skook Davidson/Frank Cooke comment that you can't have hunters and wolves both, maybe if south slopes are burned in significant scale for the benefit of sheep, you also need not just wolf control but also control over expansions of alternate prey species that will in turn stimulate wolf population expansions. As you asked,,,,why is there only a short 6pt season on elk?

[BCrams]

Could it have anything to do with record high elk populations on the east slope maintaining high wolf numbers?

Is it a similar situation as what Hugh Robinson has pointed out in the southern West Kootenay regarding mule deer, white tailed deer, and wolves?



8) One way to really find out to confirm what we already know about the east slopes regarding elk / habitat / Stone's sheep and wolves is to inventory the Highland post burn area of the Spats. Get numbers of sheep, wolves, moose, caribou etc..... Then transplant a bunch of elk to Highland post to flourish in the burn area and grassland meadows etc.

That will never happen because we know darned well how the elk skewed things over in 7b :biggrin:

[mark]

While I dont know anything about northern sheep, its been a very interesting thread! After sifting through everything Ive read here, the only real common denominator that most seem to agree on here, is the wolf issue!
That being the biggest factor towards game recruitment (not just sheep but most game) it would seem the best place to focus all attention.
Its been said that wolf culls wont happen again due to public perception (the antis ect.)
Maybe that should be the main agenda of all hunters, fish & game clubs, BCWF, WSS, ect. to change that perception.
Here in Kelowna, local clubs as well as the local BIO, have been trying for a wolf hunt for the past 2 years. Every year the proposal gets shot down by the minister with the golden pen, for the very reason that there is a bigger stack of letters opposing wolf hunting than there is supporting!
Our local BIO told us the only way we'll ever get it, is to simply flood the minister with letters supporting a wolf hunt.
Maybe the hunters and clubs province wide should be encouraging all members to write and send in letters. Seems if our stack of mail is bigger we might win!!
Im sure theres some smart guys on here who could direct us to the person to harass???? A link and a letter outline please!

[boxhitch]

Lift the heavy punishment levied on G/O's for predator control and it will take place effectively and quick, without the major press. They have the equipment and the knowledge to make it happen. Are G/O's being threatened or fined for killing wolves ?
Trapping alone will never have sufficient results, without a $3-400 bounty, given the remoteness of trouble areas.

[6616]

I've only looked at the first one and low and behold "form letters" are their method. Just sign and hit send.:mad:

Maybe we should start using their strategies.

SSS

Those guys are pro-lobbyists. Most of them don't concern themselves with "on the ground" conservation or "putting sheep on the mountain" like we maintain as our highest priority,,, they just lobby, that's all they do and they're good at it. They use all the tools.

Also many of these groups get huge annual grants from some of the large US foundations and can thus afford full time employees while we work with volunteers who have family and jobs.

Wildsight for example in the Kootenay's has fewer members then the BCWF has in the Kootenay's, but while our volunteers grind along, Wildsight has at least 3 pr 4 full time employees, at least two of them being professional biologists, and can afford to retain professional media/lobbying experts.

Don't give up though, our stack of letters just needs to get higher, thats all. Decisions are made by vote counting politicians.

[6616]

While I dont know anything about northern sheep, its been a very interesting thread! After sifting through everything Ive read here, the only real common denominator that most seem to agree on here, is the wolf issue!
That being the biggest factor towards game recruitment (not just sheep but most game) it would seem the best place to focus all attention.
Its been said that wolf culls wont happen again due to public perception (the antis ect.)
Maybe that should be the main agenda of all hunters, fish & game clubs, BCWF, WSS, ect. to change that perception.
Here in Kelowna, local clubs as well as the local BIO, have been trying for a wolf hunt for the past 2 years. Every year the proposal gets shot down by the minister with the golden pen, for the very reason that there is a bigger stack of letters opposing wolf hunting than there is supporting!
Our local BIO told us the only way we'll ever get it, is to simply flood the minister with letters supporting a wolf hunt.
Maybe the hunters and clubs province wide should be encouraging all members to write and send in letters. Seems if our stack of mail is bigger we might win!!
Im sure theres some smart guys on here who could direct us to the person to harass???? A link and a letter outline please!

Letters need to go to the Minister of Evironment CCed to your local MLAs and the Outdoor Caucus c/o Bill Bennett. While it is also useful to include the high level buearocrats like Doug Konkin and Ralph Archibald, these types of decisons will eventually be made by elected Minister's. To expect any real results our stack of letters needs to be substantially higher, politicians aren't into taking risks, they want a decisive show of public support.

All addresses can be found here. E-mails are OK too.
http://dir.gov.bc.ca/

[boxhitch]

.
Maybe the hunters and clubs province wide should be encouraging all members to write and send in letters. Seems if our stack of mail is bigger we might win!!
Im sure theres some smart guys on here who could direct us to the person to harass???? A link and a letter outline please!The theme may be different but the names and addresses are the same for all letters. Same as the last ones.

[willy442]

Are G/O's being threatened or fined for killing wolves ?
Trapping alone will never have sufficient results, without a $3-400 bounty, given the remoteness of trouble areas.

To be caught conducting effective wolf control would pretty much result in loss of area and licence

[boxhitch]

Agreed. Current Legal means are not enough for effective control.

Sing along - "If I had a million dollars......I'd pay $300 for any BC wolf hide, more for a northern wolf, that would be cool........"

[GoatGuy]

A decent read. Gives part of the picture.


What we learned about harvest management of Alaska Dall Sheep: 1971-1997

Heimer

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-1998/1998-Heimer-3.pdf

[BCrams]

I've read the paper.

What's missing from the Alaska perspective are burgeoning elk populations which in effect also drives up the number of predator species.

Can't be too good when you consider the areas where sheep are also concerned.

One needs to question whether prey species are a controllable factor as an alternative to wolf control given the public opinion these days.

[GoatGuy]

I've read the paper.

What's missing from the Alaska perspective are burgeoning elk populations which in effect also drives up the number of predator species.

Can't be too good when you consider the areas where sheep are also concerned.

One needs to question whether prey species are a controllable factor as an alternative to wolf control given the public opinion these days.

There's a few things missing in that paper but it identifies a couple of things.


What happened to stockpile the prey and shoot the predators? Then destroy the habitat, wait for a bad winter, and kill all the prey off and start over again, except this time with marginal habitat.

I've heard it works well.

[willy442]

There's a few things missing in that paper but it identifies a couple of things.


What happened to stockpile the prey and shoot the predators? Then destroy the habitat, wait for a bad winter, and kill all the prey off and start over again, except this time with marginal habitat.

I've heard it works well.


Please read post numbers 100 and 109 of this thread. The only people that were successful game managers and enhancers fail to agree with you or BC Rams.:p
Then please go to post number 31 and answer the questions that you were asked in it.
Let me add Alaska is away ahead of BC when it comes to views on management.

[BCrams]

Please read post numbers 100 and 109 of this thread. The only people that were successful game managers and enhancers fail to agree with you or BC Rams.:p
Then please go to post number 31 and answer the questions that you were asked in it.

There is no arguing the effectiveness (results) of what wolf control via heli shooting and poisoning did for sheep. Never said I disagreed with wolf control?

And there is no denying the political landscape today makes wolf control a touchy subject.

What can we do or what should we do? What can we control? What are the priorities?

Would you suggest to todays managers to do the wink wink nudge nudge to GO's and carry on.....business as usual?

Or should they find other solutions? Where's the balance?

[GoatGuy]

Please read post numbers 100 and 109 of this thread. The only people that were successful game managers and enhancers fail to agree with you or BC Rams.:p
Then please go to post number 31 and answer the questions that you were asked in it.
I was referring to elk with my last post.

I didn't say I disagree with you on predator control or habitat enhancement just that even if there was no stone hunting for the past 15 years we'd be in the exact same spot we're in right now.:roll: Shrinking sheep population.

The paper talks about predator control and it's effectiveness. You should read it.

Watch out though there's no pictures and some of them 4 sy-lla-ble words in it.

[GoatGuy]

Some more goodies from Santa's sleigh.



Wayne Heimer - A Working Hypothesis for Thinhorn Sheep Management


http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-1999/1999-Heimer-2.pdf

[willy442]

I was referring to elk with my last post.

I didn't say I disagree with you on predator control or habitat enhancement just that even if there was no stone hunting for the past 15 years we'd be in the exact same spot we're in right now.:roll: Shrinking sheep population.

The paper talks about predator control and it's effectiveness. You should read it.

Watch out though there's no pictures and some of them 4 sy-lla-ble words in it.

You didn't follow the directions I gave you in the last post nor did you answer the questions asked of you.
Instead as usual you cut and pasted a couple links to old studies that have pretty much directly discovered exactly what most of us old timers like Bridger and myself and many other experienced people have posted. Why must every thing be a scientific formula for you? If you were to spend less time trying to apply your 4 sy-lla-ble words and listen to what experience and real general knowledge of what actually happens in the back country can teach you, you could most likely disapate some of the moisture behind your ears.
We pretty much all agree that predator control is required. The problem is you are still following Pro Guides progress to see if trapping works, for lack of the availability of recent information available for you to cut and paste. Sorry that Pro Guide is a member of the site and is compiling his own posts leaving nothing left for you. Short of that, you most likely think the very expensive way of nuttering is the way to go. For your information the easiest and most effecient way available is like I said (cut the political bullshit by reducing the penalties to the local people who are eager to tackle the problem). This would result in wolf control for all just like in the 70's. Benefits are: Studies, papers, biologests and lobbiests like yourself not required to be involved. Tax payers money not wasted on gathering information like ( do wolves eat sheep). The people I work with and support already have these answers at zero cost to anyone but themselves. Sorry GG but it seems all the value of the information in this thread has run off of you like water off a ducks back and left you sitting alone with your computer looking for studies and reports. HAVE FUN

As for your input on Elk and the fact that without hunting, our sheep populations would still be declining, it just makes the garbage pile a little higher!

[willy442]

Some more goodies from Santa's sleigh.



Wayne Heimer - A Working Hypothesis for Thinhorn Sheep Management


http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-1999/1999-Heimer-2.pdf


HA: I WAS EXACTLY RIGHT WITH WHAT YOU ARE DOING:lol:

[BCHunterFSJ]

That's quite the thread you started, Rich!!!!

[PGK]

As for your input on Elk and the fact that without hunting, our sheep populations would still be declining, it just makes the garbage pile a little higher!

Whaaaaat. Srsly? I thought we all at least agreed the elk are bad for the sheep :confused:

[GoatGuy]

You didn't follow the directions I gave you in the last post nor did you answer the questions asked of you.
Instead as usual you cut and pasted a couple links to old studies that have pretty much directly discovered exactly what most of us old timers like Bridger and myself and many other experienced people have posted. Why must every thing be a scientific formula for you? If you were to spend less time trying to apply your 4 sy-lla-ble words and listen to what experience and real general knowledge of what actually happens in the back country can teach you, you could most likely disapate some of the moisture behind your ears.
We pretty much all agree that predator control is required. The problem is you are still following Pro Guides progress to see if trapping works, for lack of the availability of recent information available for you to cut and paste. Sorry that Pro Guide is a member of the site and is compiling his own posts leaving nothing left for you. Short of that, you most likely think the very expensive way of nuttering is the way to go. For your information the easiest and most effecient way available is like I said (cut the political bullshit by reducing the penalties to the local people who are eager to tackle the problem). This would result in wolf control for all just like in the 70's. Benefits are: Studies, papers, biologests and lobbiests like yourself not required to be involved. Tax payers money not wasted on gathering information like ( do wolves eat sheep). The people I work with and support already have these answers at zero cost to anyone but themselves. Sorry GG but it seems all the value of the information in this thread has run off of you like water off a ducks back and left you sitting alone with your computer looking for studies and reports. HAVE FUN


Those papers support most of the stuff you've said, or at least tried to blurt out in your own unintelligible way.

I've talked with Bridger about this stuff as well as my buddies who were shooting out of the choppers and flying the cubs back then.

The papers explain how and why things happen and help to e-d-u-c-a-t-e people. Hate to brake it to you but not everybody's willing to listen to you, particularly people who make decisions.




As for your input on Elk and the fact that without hunting, our sheep populations would still be declining, it just makes the garbage pile a little higher!

Well, it's the truth. Even if there was no hunting the sheep would be down in 7B. You've got recruitment and you aren't hunting any of the female component. Not too much to that mystery.

[willy442]

Whaaaaat. Srsly? I thought we all at least agreed the elk are bad for the sheep :confused:

I agree ElK can be detrimental to sheep herds. If you think about it though they are only this way once these biological types get involved. Implimenting regulations like the 10 day season on the Kechicka and the 6 point rules else where. If they were to accept the fact of the effects of the Elk. We would have far more liberal seasons. Let me add, the seasons along the Prophet, Toad and Muskawa should have been opened up and more liberal many years ago.

[GoatGuy]

I agree ElK can be detrimental to sheep herds. If you think about it though they are only this way once these biological types get involved. Implimenting regulations like the 10 day season on the Kechicka and the 6 point rules else where. If they were to accept the fact of the effects of the Elk. We would have far more liberal seasons. Let me add, the seasons along the Prophet, Toad and Muskawa should have been opened up and more liberal many years ago.


Hahahaha, if you think it's the biologists who want a 10 day 6 pt on the Kechika you've been hitting the glue way too hard.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Hahahaha, if you think it's the biologists who want a 10 day 6 pt on the Kechika you've been hitting the glue way too hard.

Yes, Willy. You had me intently reading your posts trying to learn something until that last statement.

SSS

[willy442]

Those papers support most of the stuff you've said, or at least tried to blurt out in your own unintelligible way.

I've talked with Bridger about this stuff as well as my buddies who were shooting out of the choppers and flying the cubs back then.

The papers explain how and why things happen and help to e-d-u-c-a-t-e people. Hate to brake it to you but not everybody's willing to listen to you, particularly people who make decisions.




Well, it's the truth. Even if there was no hunting the sheep would be down in 7B. You've got recruitment and you aren't hunting any of the female component. Not too much to that mystery.

Funny but if you were to put any credibility into the information contained in the link you posted. It clearly state's " The only sheep that should be harvested by man are the MATURE RAMS" Guess he was a dumb ass to!:???:

I also find some interest in why things happen and obviously was able to do this without scientific approaches. As you can see my observations and those who spent tax payer funds on research, basically arrived at the same conclusions.

Let me add though we studied Rams and never had an interest in the EWES to the same degree you have (Velcro gloves and Gum boots were'nt invented yet). I suggest you should have started you studying earlier than you have. Maybe while out working on your info you could have found some Rams.:shock:

[PGK]

"Well, it's the truth. Even if there was no hunting the sheep would be down in 7B. You've got recruitment and you aren't hunting any of the female component. Not too much to that mystery."

Lost me here.

[willy442]

Hahahaha, if you think it's the biologists who want a 10 day 6 pt on the Kechika you've been hitting the glue way too hard.

What now you tell me they do not have the power within thier political arena to set seasons. When did this change? Looks like you follow along with SSS and blame everthing, not in your favor on G/O's.

An issue most of us have agreed on this post has no place in game management.

GG: As long as people like you, SSS and a couple others remain as posting members on this site I will not go away. Sorry! Your best hope is that Gate's bans me.:lol:

[willy442]

"Well, it's the truth. Even if there was no hunting the sheep would be down in 7B. You've got recruitment and you aren't hunting any of the female component. Not too much to that mystery."

Lost me here.

PGK: He's just lost and grasping at straws.

[GoatGuy]

I also find some interest in why things happen and obviously was able to do this without scientific approaches. As you can see my observations and those who spent tax payer funds on research, basically arrived at the same conclusions.

Theirs happen with proof, yours happen because you say so.

Doctor tells Frank to eat right cause he might die from a heart attack because of your diet. Cook tells Frank the doctor's crazy and that he's been eating and cooking the same food as Frank has for over 50 years.

Wily, I realize you're probably a great cook and all doctors are idiots, but personally I'd rather listen to the doctor.

The differences are subtle, I know.

[PGK]

PGK: He's just lost and grasping at straws.

I think you're confused. I'm probably more confused, but at least my eyes and ears are open. I think you need to open your eyes and ears.
Fire away gents, I'm learning even if noone else is

[GoatGuy]

"Well, it's the truth. Even if there was no hunting the sheep would be down in 7B. You've got recruitment and you aren't hunting any of the female component. Not too much to that mystery."

Lost me here.

Recruitment is there; the female component isn't being harvested by humans and we have a problem.

It isn't a sperm supply problem. It isn't an issue with timing.

So everything seems to work until the lamb leaves the womb, then we got issues.

Hunting may be a small part of the problem but it isn't one of the big reasons the sheep population is low.

Even without hunting the sheep population would still be down.

[GoatGuy]

What now you tell me they do not have the power within thier political arena to set seasons. When did this change? Looks like you follow along with SSS and blame everthing, not in your favor on G/O's.

An issue most of us have agreed on this post has no place in game management.

GG: As long as people like you, SSS and a couple others remain as posting members on this site I will not go away. Sorry! Your best hope is that Gate's bans me.:lol:

I know, you'll just delete all of your posts and come back with a fresh outlook. Seen it before.

[PGK]

Now you're making sense :D I thought you were saying we had a problem and not harvesting the female population was creating it. I was going wtf....over?

[hunter7413]

the elk problem in 7-51,52,54 is unlikely to change anytime soon because of the outfitters in the toad river area.they think if there is a longer elk season there is going to be more people in "THEIR G/O AREA" as for the wolf trouble in these areas all the outfitters tie up the traplines so other residents can't trap in "THEIR G/O AREA" no matter if the person only wanted to trap wolves to help solve the problem.most outfitters would ratter see B.C like europe or africa where you have to pay to go hunting.in my opinion it wouldn't hurt to see outfitters lose their sheep quota..

Happy hunting

[GoatGuy]

Now you're making sense :D I thought you were saying we had a problem and not harvesting the female population was creating it. I was going wtf....over?

nope. :biggrin:

[willy442]

Theirs happen with proof, yours happen because you say so.

Doctor tells Frank to eat right cause he might die from a heart attack because of your diet. Cook tells Frank the doctor's crazy and that he's been eating and cooking the same food as Frank has for over 50 years.

Wily, I realize you're probably a great cook and all doctors are idiots, but personally I'd rather listen to the doctor.

The differences are subtle, I know.

Another post relevent to to the subject at hand I see!:p

[willy442]

Recruitment is there; the female component isn't being harvested by humans and we have a problem.

It isn't a sperm supply problem. It isn't an issue with timing.

So everything seems to work until the lamb leaves the womb, then we got issues.

Hunting may be a small part of the problem but it isn't one of the big reasons the sheep population is low.

Even without hunting the sheep population would still be down.

If you read the study you posted the link to. It say's no harvest of the ewe population is required as natural cause's of mortality ie; Eagles, wolves and mother nature will take care of adjusting these numbers. It goes on to say that if you harvest the immature rams the consequence are lack of yearly lambing. Once the harvest was directed to mature rams everything fell back into line. This is very similar to what myself and most others have observed with many hours of sitting on cold, wet, and windy mountain sides. Quess things have changed again in trying to discover why these things happen in the educated world.

[willy442]

I know, you'll just delete all of your posts and come back with a fresh outlook. Seen it before.

Yes at one point I thought about dropping the endless dealing with your kind. However your cut and paste studies and articles that I see you fail at times to even understand. Have made me dig my heels in for the good of the people with a real interest in Sheep.

[bridger]

on the subject of harvesting immature rams these are the facts:

over the years since compulsory reporting has been the norm the vast
majority of stone rams killed have been over 8 years old or what is termed a mature ram. the majority have been between 8 and 10 yrs old. the myth that in the old days all rams were 10+ plus years is just that a myth. the age structure is a matter of public record you can look it up as the saying goes. the majortiy of the rams harvested that are under 8 yrs are traditionally taken by residents and in my view is caused in the most part from competition with outfitters. they are the pro's, have hunted the same area for years, most have super cubs, many have ground to air communications and many hunt the more accessible areas right off the bat. pro sheep guides are tough competition for the average resident hunter. I don't know if that is right or wrong just the way it is.

[willy442]

on the subject of harvesting immature rams these are the facts:

over the years since compulsory reporting has been the norm the vast
majority of stone rams killed have been over 8 years old or what is termed a mature ram. the majority have been between 8 and 10 yrs old. the myth that in the old days all rams were 10+ plus years is just that a myth. the age structure is a matter of public record you can look it up as the saying goes. the majortiy of the rams harvested that are under 8 yrs are traditionally taken by residents and in my view is caused in the most part from competition with outfitters. they are the pro's, have hunted the same area for years, most have super cubs, many have ground to air communications and many hunt the more accessible areas right off the bat. pro sheep guides are tough competition for the average resident hunter. I don't know if that is right or wrong just the way it is.

Bridger you know that age average has been dropping recently and far more Rams under eight have been taken. You also are quoting info that may not be entirely correct due to the lack of competent CI's. The G/O take on the other hand looks a bit better than the resident I agree. In one post you were going to put up the 2008 harvest numbers and ages are you still going to do that?

[bridger]

yes i am going to post the numbers haven't gotten them yet should have them later this week. as far as the age going down that really didn't happen until moe took the age restriction out of the equation. outfitters are no longer penalized for taking under 8 yr old rams and neither is the resident. the best rule we ever had was if you killed an 8+ ram you could hunt the next year if you killed a young ram you couldn't hunt the next two years. tied to that was a stipulation that outfitters would be penalized for taking young rams. that worked reallly well and the moe changed it over the strong objections of the bcwf and goabc. go figger!

[hunter7413]

there's a site on the gov. site and it shows all sheep harvest for residence and non does anyone know the site? this will show who is the bigger killer of sheep.If the sheep are in trouble maybe the people that live here and pay taxes should have first choice not the non residences.As for the outfitters and their bussinesses the residences still pay more taxes and contribute more to economy from fuel usage and everything else that goes along with hunting.I think if someone is goin to be cut on the sheep harvest it should be the outfitters

good hunting

one more thing for Bill did you train the crew in toad not to like residences

[Ambush]

Recruitment is there; the female component isn't being harvested by humans and we have a problem.

It isn't a sperm supply problem. It isn't an issue with timing.

So everything seems to work until the lamb leaves the womb, then we got issues.

Hunting may be a small part of the problem but it isn't one of the big reasons the sheep population is low.

Even without hunting the sheep population would still be down.

Can you just say out right, what, in your opinion, is the main culprit?

[GoatGuy]

Can you just say out right, what, in your opinion, is the main culprit?

1 Predators

[PGK]

Can you just say out right, what, in your opinion, is the main culprit?

I think he's pointing his finger at predation. He's afraid to say wolves, because nobody has proven that the majority of sheep getting predated upon are being killed by wolves. I myself do not believe wolves are the number one predator of young sheep.

We have lots of sperm, lots of ewes, lots of humping, low harvest rates (relatively) and a negative population growth (give or take).

To me, that means a whole pile of mortality in the younger age brackets. So, how do we enhance habitat to increase juvenile sheep survival? I don't know, I don't know enough about it to say.

Edit: He only beat me cause he typed less!! At least I know I'm in the ballpark!!!

[Ambush]

[quote=GoatGuy;429453] 1 Predators

Seems to be the one thing most can agree on.

What would it take to institute a systematic predator control program?

Do wildlife managers and/or policy makers believe that the present number of sheep is a more natural balance than the twelve thousand count?

That is; are they satisfied with the present numbers and see no need for a correction?

[bridger]

there's a site on the gov. site and it shows all sheep harvest for residence and non does anyone know the site? this will show who is the bigger killer of sheep.If the sheep are in trouble maybe the people that live here and pay taxes should have first choice not the non residences.As for the outfitters and their bussinesses the residences still pay more taxes and contribute more to economy from fuel usage and everything else that goes along with hunting.I think if someone is goin to be cut on the sheep harvest it should be the outfitters

good hunting

one more thing for Bill did you train the crew in toad not to like residences


i am not aware of a government web site that shows the harvest stats between residents and non resident sheep hunters. i do know that for the last 10 yrs the split has been averaging (in 7b) about 55% for non residents and 45% for residents. those averages were reversed in 2007 /2008 when the age restriction was removed. also remember that for the 13 years previous to that resident hunting opportunities were supressed by the 1 in 3 rule.

[GoatGuy]

Bridger you know that age average has been dropping recently and far more Rams under eight have been taken. You also are quoting info that may not be entirely correct due to the lack of competent CI's. The G/O take on the other hand looks a bit better than the resident I agree. In one post you were going to put up the 2008 harvest numbers and ages are you still going to do that?

Probably always had problems with CIs. Especially before they were plugged.

7B 2007 Resident 8+ 68%, non-res 8+ 79%. Overall 72% 8+. If anything 2007 should have been a 'bad' year as the 1 in 3 rule was removed.

10 year ave 1992-2001 was 75% 8+, both res and non-res combined.


And while we're at it some more.
Think I've mentioned this one before, course you balked at it.

COHORT VARIATION IN HORN GROWTH OF DALL SHEEP RAMS IN
THE SOUTHWEST YUKON, 1969-1999

Hik and Carey
http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-2000/2000-Hik%20&%20Carey.pdf



And another good one. You might not like it but it's worth reading.

Average Age of Harvest: What is it really telling us?

Carey and Dehn

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-1998/1998-Carey%20&%20Dehn.pdf

So nice that these are available online instead of just hardcopy now.

Enjoy.

[6616]

I myself do not believe wolves are the number one predator of young sheep.!

You may be correct, the Heimer papers actually said wolves prey on adult sheep morer then lambs, but if they take a significant number of adult ewes, would not the eventual effect be the same?

[6616]

[quote=GoatGuy;429453] 1 Predators


Seems to be the one thing most can agree on.

What would it take to institute a systematic predator control program?

Do wildlife managers and/or policy makers believe that the present number of sheep is a more natural balance than the twelve thousand count?

That is; are they satisfied with the present numbers and see no need for a correction?

The most effective predator control stategy may be to reduce the elk population, that is the one significant factor in this whole scene that was missing when we had 12,000 sheep.

[GoatGuy]

Seems to be the one thing most can agree on.

What would it take to institute a systematic predator control program?

Do wildlife managers and/or policy makers believe that the present number of sheep is a more natural balance than the twelve thousand count?

That is; are they satisfied with the present numbers and see no need for a correction?


Takes people with small mouths, a strong Minister and a government that supports hunting. Consumptive users have to unite and pound their fists.


Predation is a big issue mind you (elk gonna be a big part of predator loading), habitat enhancement and competition need to be taken care of as well. Willy and Bridger have outlined most of what needs to happen and they know best.

Really need $ and some people who are willing to throw some energy into driving change.

[PGK]

You may be correct, the Heimer papers actually said wolves prey on adult sheep morer then lambs, but if they take a significant number of adult ewes, would not the eventual effect be the same?

I'm not even suggesting this is the case. Everyone posting here knows far more about this than I do. But I don't learn this without participating in the discussion so.

To my meager knowledge, wolves do not ''key in'' on the sheep when they are 'lambing', they are far more involved with chasing caribou around their calving grounds. Thus is my understanding, and from this stems why I *think* wolves are not the #1 predator on young sheep.
It's probably impossible to make generalizations. In some areas it may very well be wolves, in others it may be wolverines, in others it may be eagles or gbears. Who knows. The trend looks to be less young sheep entering the reproducing population due to predation (whatever form that takes)

[6616]

That is; are they satisfied with the present numbers and see no need for a correction?

I'd be willing to bet that there's lots of managers who'd love to initiate a wolf control program, but Victoria F&W headquarters, being subject to social and political pressures, will not allow that to happen.

[boxhitch]

Bridger you know that age average has been dropping recently and far more Rams under eight have been taken.
Hasn't dropped as much as you may have perceived. Resi harvest had no reason to drop,as majority only care about curl. And that of G/O may have dropped due to change of focus on age.
You also are quoting info that may not be entirely correct due to the lack of competent CI's. But that is the same info used for years and used by everyone, so cannot factor error
.The G/O take on the other hand looks a bit better than the resident I agree. In one post you were going to put up the 2008 harvest numbers and ages are you still going to do that?Its only been 4 months since CI's were completed, lets not rush the process.

[boxhitch]

Do wildlife managers and/or policy makers believe that the present number of sheep is a more natural balance than the twelve thousand count?

That is; are they satisfied with the present numbers and see no need for a correction?Does the answer have to be spelled out more clearly ?

[Ambush]

I'd be willing to be that there's lots of managers who'd love to initiate a wolf control program, but Victoria F&W headquarters, being subject to social and political pressures, will not allow that to happen.

Would it be more likely to happen after the election and post-olympics.

Green peace and affilliates would certainly threaten to take their "save the wolf" banners to the world to disrupt the Olympic tourist potential.

Provincial politicians are all walking on eggs right now.

[6616]

I'm not even suggesting this is the case. Everyone posting here knows far more about this than I do. But I don't learn this without participating in the discussion so.

To my meager knowledge, wolves do not ''key in'' on the sheep when they are 'lambing', they are far more involved with chasing caribou around their calving grounds. Thus is my understanding, and from this stems why I *think* wolves are not the #1 predator on young sheep.
It's probably impossible to make generalizations. In some areas it may very well be wolves, in others it may be wolverines, in others it may be eagles or gbears. Who knows. The trend looks to be less young sheep entering the reproducing population due to predation (whatever form that takes)

Well Dr Heimer would agree with you regarding young sheep as well as sheep predation during lambing season. He believes wolf predation on sheep impacts mostly adult sheep, the ewe loss being the critical key factor of course, and at later times of the year including on the winter ranges rather then on the lambing grounds. He also noted that when coyotes are present they, unlike wolves, do play a significant role in lamb predation.

There does appears there are "other factors" playing into this. In several studies he quoted there was no benefit to local Dall sheep populations following wolf control. In other studies there was a dramatic impact, similar to what we witnessed in BC during the 80's. In conclusion he would not go so far as to state that wolf predation doesn't play a significant role in Dall sheep population dynamics. In our particular case on the east slope, elk may very likely represent one of the "other factors".

[boxhitch]

To my meager knowledge, wolves do not ''key in'' on the sheep when they are 'lambing', they are far more involved with chasing caribou around their calving grounds. Thus is my understanding, and from this stems why I *think* wolves are not the #1 predator on young sheep.
It's probably impossible to make generalizations. In some areas it may very well be wolves, in others it may be wolverines, in others it may be eagles or gbears. Who knows. The trend looks to be less young sheep entering the reproducing population due to predation (whatever form that takes)It would be probable that any valley with a wolf population would see some animals killed by them. If that happens to be calves pigs or lambs, you know what may be on the menu. I don't think they would key onto anything specifically, just what is available, without a major migration to get to it. When they get to the point of eating the beaver you know they will target anything.
I have been in a single valley for over three weeks at one time, and seen no sign of wolves. We counted four wolverines and 14 different eagles, and ten ewes with only one lamb. wolves were not the issue..

[6616]

Would it be more likely to happen after the election and post-olympics.

Green peace and affilliates would certainly threaten to take their "save the wolf" banners to the world to disrupt the Olympic tourist potential.

Provincial politicians are all walking on eggs right now.

I fear the next big battle in BC is going to be about salvaging bear hunting in the coastal regions...not about wolve control! Rec'd the below today on the BCWF hot line:
This is almost sure to be a political dabate during the election. We may see the position of the NDP on bear hunting exposed. Sorry for going off-topic.


MEDIA ADVISORY
First Nations, Animal Protection and Conservation Groups Unite to Stop
Trophy Hunting of Bears in the Great Bear Rainforest

VANCOUVER, March 16, 2009 Representatives from Coastal First Nations,
Humane Society International/Canada and Pacific Wild will launch a campaign
to end the trophy hunting of bears in the Great Bear Rainforest at a media
conference on Tuesday, March 17, 2009 at 10 am. The groups will release
graphic footage of trophy hunting of bears along with statements from
leading scientists calling for an end to the hunts.

DATE: Tuesday, March 17, 2009
TIME: 10:00 AM
LOCATION: SFU Harbour Centre (515 West Hastings Street,
Vancouver), room 1420
Contact:
Bruce Passmore
Humane Society International/Canada
Tel: 604-780-7765 (c) 604-684-5113 (h) 514-395-2914 (o)
Email: bpassmore@hsi.org (mhtml:{09A407A8-972C-48B4-96E9-66C975CC0012}mid://00000008/!x-usc:mailto:bpassmore@hsi.org)

[PGK]

It would be probable that any valley with a wolf population would see some animals killed by them. If that happens to be calves pigs or lambs, you know what may be on the menu. I don't think they would key onto anything specifically, just what is available, without a major migration to get to it. When they get to the point of eating the beaver you know they will target anything.
I have been in a single valley for over three weeks at one time, and seen no sign of wolves. We counted four wolverines and 14 different eagles, and ten ewes with only one lamb. wolves were not the issue..

Exactly as I suspected. At least I'm in the ballpark.

PGK...just tryin to keep up

[willy442]

1 Predators

You actually answered a question. We are teaching you something!

[willy442]

I'm not even suggesting this is the case. Everyone posting here knows far more about this than I do. But I don't learn this without participating in the discussion so.

To my meager knowledge, wolves do not ''key in'' on the sheep when they are 'lambing', they are far more involved with chasing caribou around their calving grounds. Thus is my understanding, and from this stems why I *think* wolves are not the #1 predator on young sheep.
It's probably impossible to make generalizations. In some areas it may very well be wolves, in others it may be wolverines, in others it may be eagles or gbears. Who knows. The trend looks to be less young sheep entering the reproducing population due to predation (whatever form that takes)

During lambing, the main predators are Eagles and Wolverines also take quite a few. I believe that they and the fact that ewes will not concieve every year if forage is bad or pressured by such as the Elk.Like stated in the studies also if the age structure of Rams gets out of wack. It seems you guy's think all the ewes are concieving, this is most likely not the case at present.

[BCrams]

Exactly as I suspected. At least I'm in the ballpark.

PGK...just tryin to keep up

At least in one area ....... I know grizzlies were quite efficient at killing Stone's sheep lambs.

[6616]

During lambing, the main predators are Eagles and Wolverines also take quite a few. I believe that they and the fact that ewes will not concieve every year if forage is bad or pressured by such as the Elk.Like stated in the studies also if the age structure of Rams gets out of wack. It seems you guy's think all the ewes are concieving, this is most likely not the case at present.

To see this in more detail, the Heimer studies indicated that when the 3/4 horn regulation had been in place for a long period of time in Alaska, the mean age of rams was down around 3 to 4 years of age, and ewes were only conceiving every second year, thus recruitment was inadequate.

Additionally these younger rams could not withstand the pressure and physical costs associated with a position of dominance during the rut coupled with the follow-up winter nutritional stress due to their social and physical immaturity, and ram mortaility was very high, thus hunting harvests were also very low. So sheep managememt was losing on two fronts, low lamb production and high ram mortality. During this period there were basically no mature rams (defined as 7 or 8 year olds by Heimer) in the heavily hunted populations.

When they changed horn curl regulations to 7/8 curl, the ewe conception rate was corrected and recruitment returned to normal levels, the average age of rams increased to 5 and 6 years of age, but the ram mortaility remained very high. There were still basically no mature 7 and 8 year old rams in the population.

When they finally went to the full curl regulation in 1984 ram winter mortaility finally was reduced to an acceptable level, hunter harvests began increasing, and by 1989 they were sustainably harvesting more rams then they had been under the 3/4 horn regulation, with an overall more vital and socially functional population.

The conclusion was that rams under 8 years of age should not be harvested and that a full curl horn regulation was the best way to achieve this, and this basic assumption has since been adopted by all thin horn sheep management regimes. At 8 years of age natural ram mortality rates are at a level where additive mortality caused by rutting costs balances out with natural mortality rates. Harvesting rams under 8 years of age lowers the average overall age of the ram component and additive mortaility begins at that point. Granted, a few 7 year old rams might be harvested under a full curl regulation, but a few is not likely to dramatically reduce the overall average age of the entire ram component. A few is not a disaster like the 3/4 or 7/8 curl horn regulations created. Of course it's advantageous to keep this to a minimum.

This syndrome does not necessarily fully apply to bighorns, as explained by Heimer, due to the fact that most mature bighorns broom their horns much more than thinhorns, the 3/4 curl regulations still allows a few (heavily broomed) mature rams to survive hunting and these will natually assume the role of dominance during the rut. However it's been accepted and deemed as general practice by bighorn managers as the safest and most sustainable way to manage any/all wild sheep to ensure maximum productivity and the lowest possible winter ram mortality.

[SHAKER]

Should be easier to find a few class IV with the drop in the number of GO allocations;-).

SSS


I scaned threw all 19 pages of this thing... yes predetors are a problems I'm sure, but this above statement never really got adressed. I've noticed this in the past on other threads as well, so whats up guys? Is this something we can't talk about? or we scared up upset one of them with our opinions like mine that game managment is to apease the GO sector.

Someone said that one GO had a hard time filling his quota of 5? maybe but I"m sure he got paid well for the guys he did take out.


FYI I missed my grizz draw with a 1.6 -1, man it sucks to be me!

[boxhitch]

The conclusion was that rams under 8 years of age should not be harvested and that a full curl horn regulation was the best way to achieve this, and this basic assumption has since been adopted by all thin horn sheep management regimes. At 8 years of age natural ram mortality rates are at a level where additive mortality caused by rutting costs balances out with natural mortality rates. Harvesting rams under 8 years of age lowers the average overall age of the ram component and additive mortaility begins at that point. Granted, a few 7 year old rams might be harvested under a full curl regulation, but a few is not likely to dramatically reduce the overall average age of the entire ram component.
This was also stated at the time of change to the BC regs, but may have just been a quote of this very paper.
If the full-curl rule is good enough for Alaska, it should be good enough for BC. They have far more science behind their decisions.

[boxhitch]

Is this something we can't talk about? or we scared up upset one of them with our opinions like mine that game managment is to apease the GO sector.
!This thread is about sheep inventory, which has no relation to Allocations.

[6616]

This was also stated at the time of change to the BC regs, but may have just been a quote of this very paper.
If the full-curl rule is good enough for Alaska, it should be good enough for BC. They have far more science behind their decisions.


Strange, but even back in the days of 7/8 and 3/4 curl regulations in BC there were trophy class bighorns in the East Kootenay even though we were killing 100 rams per year, and they weren't all beat up old rams that were broomed back to 3/4 or 7/8 curl either. I think the very nature of bighorns using timbered areas also ensured a significant survival rate of old rams, another huge example of major habitat and behavioral related differences between bighorns and thinhorns.

[boxhitch]

Maybe showing that a mixed harvest is better than just taking the cream ? But too many other variables to decide for me.

Does show that the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Also interesting how a thinhorn hunter will select a 'pretty, lamb-tipped' 160 ram over a broomed battle-worn old pig 170+ ram.

[SHAKER]

This thread is about sheep inventory, which has no relation to Allocations.

Same basic thing isn't it? Can't get one # without the other.

[Kody94]

Also interesting how a thinhorn hunter will select a 'pretty, lamb-tipped' 160 ram over a broomed battle-worn old pig 170+ ram.

Some people like their thinhorns to look like thinhorns, others like them to look like bighorns. I prefer them to look like argalis. :)

[PGK]

Maybe showing that a mixed harvest is better than just taking the cream ? But too many other variables to decide for me.

Does show that the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Also interesting how a thinhorn hunter will select a 'pretty, lamb-tipped' 160 ram over a broomed battle-worn old pig 170+ ram.

So, you're suggesting a potential for LEH 3/4 curl to take some of the pressure of the big boys?

[Gateholio]

Some people like their thinhorns to look like thinhorns, others like them to look like bighorns. I prefer them to look like argalis. :)

Show off:mrgreen:

[6616]

So, you're suggesting a potential for LEH 3/4 curl to take some of the pressure of the big boys?


Not a good idea for any sheep herd, lowering the average ram age still results in the beginning of increased additive ram mortality and a decrease in the number of surplus rams. (Surplus rams as defined by Heimer - rams that can be removed without decreasing the populations ability to sustain itself reproductively)

It's just that bighorn are a little more forgiving due to brooming tendency and habitat selection.

[boxhitch]

So, you're suggesting a potential for LEH 3/4 curl to take some of the pressure of the big boys?No, suggesting the full curl harvest at 2% leaves a sustaining herd, and that its ok to take younger FC rams and leave some mature FC survive.

[PGK]

Then what's rolling around in your head as 'mixed harvest'

[budismyhorse]

No, suggesting the full curl harvest at 2% leaves a sustaining herd, and that its ok to take younger FC rams and leave some mature FC survive.

just catching up to this thread...

Good point Boxhitch, this is what I don't understand about some people's opinion. If I was a trophy hunter I would actually want some guys to be shooting the smaller, however legal sheep. For a couple reasons:

1. It saves a few mature rams from being killed and therefore saved for me to hunt later while passing on good genes in the process.
2. If guys are cutting tags early and going home (the smaller ones are generally easier to get) then less hunters are hunting longer and harder, therefore more time in the field with less hunters around.

If this is wrong, thats fine, I don't pretend to know much about this.

[riflebuilder]

Just make a new rule that to kill a sheep you first have to kill two wolves, Jmo

[boxhitch]

bud, if that can be done, hunters get a fair chance at success, and the ram numbers stay sufficient for proper herd success and recruitment, then everything continues along smoothly.
Some feel the average age has to be higher than this allows, for proper breeding and recruitment.

The debate, as with all species, will also continue about what is desired for the large trophy component .

[hunter7413]

here is one that won't eat sheep anymore
http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu15/hunter7413/fifthwolf003.jpg

[358mag]

Maybe showing that a mixed harvest is better than just taking the cream ? But too many other variables to decide for me.

Does show that the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Also interesting how a thinhorn hunter will select a 'pretty, lamb-tipped' 160 ram over a broomed battle-worn old pig 170+ ram.
not me !!!!!!