View Full Version : BUCK,s Closed - CARIBOU
CJ-Jim
03-01-2009, 08:21 AM
Well it look,s like the Mule and white tail buck season for Region 5 is going to be closed for 10days during the rut
at the latest meeting this past weekend F & Game has told BCWF that the buck season for the Caribou is going to be shut-down for 10 days during the rut.
This means that we will have a split season
Also the bag limit will be reduced from 2 to 1
Anyone who hunts the Caribou should take note of these changes , you may be able to voice your opinion by contacting the F & Game office in Williams Lake it look,s like this is where this idea started !!!
ALL this is to improve the Buck - Doe - Ratio , the local Hunt Clubs have been pushing for a Doe season to a solve this problem but it arrears this request has fallen on VERY DEAF EARS
Why have a DOE Season when you have LEH ?? -and the Ministry can SELL LEH Applications and make a winfall profit of over $30,000.00 from application sales
Do the math - Number of LEH,s Advailable times numbers of hunters applying [ use the odds ] times $6.00
Deadshot
03-01-2009, 08:52 AM
Which 10 days? Nov.10-20?
CJ-Jim
03-01-2009, 08:57 AM
I have no dates yet - but the issue is once the F & G close for the rut it will NOT be reopenned - how many times have you seen the Ministry REVERSE a Decision and Reopen a closed Season !!
IMO... I think its a good descision! I personally grew up in that area and have hunted there all my life. Ive noticed the mule deer hunt quality has been deteriorating in the past 3 years and most of my old buddies still up there agree! Nice to see some change, but man will them reg. 5 guys do some crying!
CJ-Jim
03-01-2009, 09:23 AM
Mark -
The rest of the story Region 5- there are a ton of does walking around - and the ONLY way to hunt Does is with LEH - the ministry makes lots of LEH money -also the Local farmers are getting money for crop damage from - Guess who ?? - and then they post their land - no access - More crop damage - More money from - GUESS WHO ??
Not bad a Government CASH CROP that you Don,t have to plant or water or even feed - it looks after itself /
Mark -
The rest of the story Region 5- there are a ton of does walking around - and the ONLY way to hunt Does is with LEH - the ministry makes lots of LEH money -also the Local farmers are getting money for crop damage from - Guess who ?? - and then they post their land - no access - More crop damage - More money from - GUESS WHO ??
Not bad a Government CASH CROP that you Don,t have to plant or water or even feed - it looks after itself /
Im curious as to why you directed this comment to me?? I know how LEH works!
Have any reg. 5 landowners actually recieved money for crop damage from mule deer??????
While I believe they could acheive the same goals by simply going back to the Nov 1st 4 point or better season, I think these season changes aren't too bad. Good to see some common sense prevailed and the late hunt wasn't lost completely. I do hope the Regional managers of all the southern regions still put their collective heads together and work out a unified season for sometime in the future. It needs to get done.
As for the rejection of idea of a GOS antlerless season, IMO, I don't see the idea of LEH as a bad thing. Too much can go wrong with a GOS, there is no control on overall harvest. It is a slippery slope that can lead to a downhill slide fast. In order to deal with the overpopulation, they are going to have to do more than what the current system of LEH provides. By letting out 30,000 tags, there aren't that many hunters to fill them. They will need to go to a muliple LEH tag system or a regional tag system to acheive those goals. The Peace set the predicent a few years ago and the Provincial baglimits were allowed to be exceeded.
GoatGuy
03-01-2009, 11:39 AM
There has been no decision or any changes yet.
The F&W Branch in Region 5 put a proposal forward to the provincial level. The province has to make a decision on what they want.
Nothing has been decided.
GG,
Is there any indication that Victoria would not approve this proposed regional regulation change?
GoatGuy
03-01-2009, 12:26 PM
GG,
Is there any indication that Victoria would not approve this proposed regional regulation change?
The reg change which was proposed by Region 5 staff has to go through PHRAAC and Victoria. The reg change was not supported by local hunters.
Most biologists and managers like to deal with conservation and they see the big picture. There is major opposition to this proposal.
Time will only tell. :wink:
I will tell you one thing. The folks who like the rut and late hunt in Region 3 can kiss it goodbye if this goes through.
boxhitch
03-01-2009, 12:38 PM
:rolleyes:
The reg change was not supported by local hunters.
Most biologists and managers like to deal with conservation and they see the big picture. There is major opposition to this proposal.
Have only heard that a few other times :rolleyes:
sfire436
03-01-2009, 12:57 PM
The reg change which was proposed by Region 5 staff has to go through PHRAAC and Victoria. The reg change was not supported by local hunters.
Most biologists and managers like to deal with conservation and they see the big picture. There is major opposition to this proposal.
Time will only tell. :wink:
I will tell you one thing. The folks who like the rut and late hunt in Region 3 can kiss it goodbye if this goes through.
What about late seasom bow opportunities? Surely the better of hunters should still get a crack at em Bucks:wink:
The reg change which was proposed by Region 5 staff has to go through PHRAAC and Victoria. The reg change was not supported by local hunters.
Most biologists and managers like to deal with conservation and they see the big picture. There is major opposition to this proposal.
Time will only tell. :wink:
I will tell you one thing. The folks who like the rut and late hunt in Region 3 can kiss it goodbye if this goes through.
I am understanding that this is just a 10 day closure during the peak of the rut from the 11-20th right? And then it would be open for 4 point or better for the end of the season? If I am correct, I don't see why this would hurt the Region 3 late seasons. Currently, the bulk of the out-of region hunters have been pounding Region 5 from the 15-30. A lot were taking avantage of the 2 buck limit and hoping for snow for the big boys to come down to the lower ground. With a week break, I think there would be reduced out-of-region hunter pressure but you would still see many show up during that last week hunt. Sure, Region 3 would see some tranfer during that peak rut week, but probably not more than we could handle. With the current warm trends we've seen in both regions, no snow means very few big bucks hitting the ground and with the 4 point restriction maintained in Region 3, I don't think it would grow to be a conservation concern. Of course, this is only if I'm understanding this proposal correctly. If it is a Nov 10th closure and no furthur hunting beyond that point, then you are indeed right, the Region 3 late hunt will be extinct as well.
Deadshot
03-01-2009, 02:17 PM
If it closed on the 10th till the end ,then that would be a 21 day closure.
A 10th -20th closure would maybe get the bucks out & about again.
10th to 20th would be pointless, because the peak rut is after the 20th. Closing it for ten days is stupid. If they want to do a rut closure, the 15th to the 30th would suffice. I think the locals are mostly pissed because they will lose the long weekend drivearound hunting. I don't know if I should agree with this, or disagree, but I am pretty sure I disagree with it, even though if they leave it open from the 21st to the 30th, I will be down there with about 10,000 other guys :|
10th to 20th would be pointless, because the peak rut is after the 20th. Closing it for ten days is stupid. If they want to do a rut closure, the 15th to the 30th would suffice. I think the locals are mostly pissed because they will lose the long weekend drivearound hunting. I don't know if I should agree with this, or disagree, but I am pretty sure I disagree with it, even though if they leave it open from the 21st to the 30th, I will be down there with about 10,000 other guys :|
Pointless??? Stupid??? Wow, you know the exact days of the rut, thats amazing!
Just curious, how many mature mule deer have you bagged in your life???
Its been my experience that "most" of the bigger bucks do get hammered in them 10 days, it will save alot of bucks!
wolverine
03-01-2009, 03:52 PM
Question. I haven't hunted region 5 for a while but I was given to understand that the deer population was pretty strong. Is that wrong? Just wondering why they decreased the bag limit from 2 to 1 and if the population is down, why the hell are they trying to recruit new hunters all the time?
ruttinbuck
03-01-2009, 04:09 PM
Question. I haven't hunted region 5 for a while but I was given to understand that the deer population was pretty strong. Is that wrong? Just wondering why they decreased the bag limit from 2 to 1 and if the population is down, why the hell are they trying to recruit new hunters all the time?
This management decision is based more on political clout than science.Unfortunately not in the resident hunters best interest and we can't don't lobby near loud enough.RB
Pointless??? Stupid??? Wow, you know the exact days of the rut, thats amazing!
Just curious, how many mature mule deer have you bagged in your life???
Its been my experience that "most" of the bigger bucks do get hammered in them 10 days, it will save alot of bucks!
I've never killed any large mule deer. Which really has nothing to do with this conversation :razz: I'm sure you'll be quick to remind us all how many big monster 160 class mulies you have killed.
How many courses have you taken on wildlife management? WOW, you know exactly how to manage wildlife because you've killed a couple mature mule deer :razz:
It's been MY experience that in region 5 (FIVE) most of the large mature bucks are killed between the 20th and 30th. The biggest ones I have seen have all been killed on the last two days of the season.....hmm wonder why dana loves his Dec10 closure so much....hmmmm.
I've never killed any large mule deer.
It's been MY experience that in region 5 (FIVE) most of the large mature bucks are killed between the 20th and 30th. The biggest ones I have seen have all been killed on the last two days of the season.....hmm wonder why dana loves his Dec10 closure so much....hmmmm.
Well you just contradicted yourself bigtime!! You really dont have any experience! lol
I havnt taken any courses, or read too many books, but I have hunted mulies in reg. 5 for over 20 years and taken between 45-50 mulies (all by accident according to some here)
I also have a few friends with similar track records.
It's been MY experience that in region 5, that the craziest rutting action Ive observed does occur in the 10-20 dates. The majority of good bucks myself and buddies have bagged have been in that time frame!
Like I said before, It will save alot of bucks and thats all its intended to do!
On another note, it does cooperate with the reg. 8 closer dates. If the powers had to pick ten days to shut it down, id say they did well!
I have also taken many in the later 10 days as well as quite a few right on dec. 10 Id attribute them kills more to the influx of migratory deer due to snow accumilation, rather than extreme rut activity!
Dec. 10 we actually often see a second estrus of the does that got missed the first go around, and do get some rut activity.
Hmmm thats 28 days after what date???? :confused:
I've never killed any large mule deer. Which really has nothing to do with this conversation :razz: I'm sure you'll be quick to remind us all how many big monster 160 class mulies you have killed.
How many courses have you taken on wildlife management? WOW, you know exactly how to manage wildlife because you've killed a couple mature mule deer :razz:
It's been MY experience that in region 5 (FIVE) most of the large mature bucks are killed between the 20th and 30th. The biggest ones I have seen have all been killed on the last two days of the season.....hmm wonder why dana loves his Dec10 closure so much....hmmmm.
PGK,
Your lack of experience shows. Hit the books a little harder and you'll see that Mark is right. The peak of the rut is indeed the 11th-20th. Do you think the managers in the OK and Koots randomly picked the 10th for their closures???? Nope, actually considerable science behind it. Before Jelly resurects his "Best 3 days to kill a Monster Muley" thread, here is the answer to the question. Why do ya think Horshur was calling my Bullshit in the other thread? Because he fully knows the 11th-20th is what I really care about. News Flash!!!! This just in. Dana admits to when the best time to kill a monster muley!!!! News Flash!!!! Nov 11-20th is the Best to kill in the West!!!! News Flash!!!! Monster Muley dies on the tracks on Nov 15th!!!!
Why do I like to hunt all the way till Dec 10th then? Hmmm, with migratory deer, snow is the key. Many a big buck will get laid in the Rhodo Jungles of the ESSF if there is no snow to push them low. The later in the season, the better chance that the weather will work in your favour. The Big Boys are long finished rutting by Dec. Heck, most are done by the 20th and then they go straight back up the mountain to heal up and rest in those rhodo jungles. It is the little dinks that roam the sage with their tongues hanging out after the 20th. They are just hoping and wishin they find a doe that the big boys missed. They are the ones that seem to be easy targets during the rut, as they loose their brains completely and don't eat and barely sleep for a month as they look for pussy. They are no different than teenagers in the human race.
Fisher-Dude
03-01-2009, 06:34 PM
Explain this to me. We have an over-population of deer in region 5, that is established. Why do we want to shoot less bucks? Surely we don't want to breed more does and add to the over-population problem?
ufishifish2
03-01-2009, 06:48 PM
I work in the bush, therefore have the luxury of hunting every day of the week all hunting season. I get a couple bucks every year, and my wife does too. Looking back at our old Hunting Licenses, neither one of us have never got a deer during that pivotal week.
Sure it's B.S, and sure we should complain about it, but does it really matter, other than being a royal pain in the a**? For some hunters, it'll actually be a well needed break from pounding the hell out of those gravel roads, and opportunity to sleep in on the weekend. Maybe the wife and kids will benefit too.
It's not right, but then again, when has the gov't ever done something that really made sense$$$?????
leadpillproductions
03-01-2009, 07:04 PM
i think they should take away the any buck and just make 4 point the hole season
Fisher-Dude
03-01-2009, 07:07 PM
i think they should take away the any buck and just make 4 point the hole season
Why do you think that?
Timbow
03-01-2009, 07:09 PM
It's been MY experience that in region 5 (FIVE) most of the large mature bucks are killed between the 20th and 30th. The biggest ones I have seen have all been killed on the last two days of the season.....hmm wonder why dana loves his Dec10 closure so much....hmmmm.
Not to be harsh, but if you truly hunt for trophy mulie deer in region 5 you got you dates wrong. There are big deer that are harvested close to the end of November as they are cruising for that next doe that hasn't been breed. Dana and Mark are right, November 10th is the magical number for the rut, especially in Region 5.
Explain this to me. We have an over-population of deer in region 5, that is established. Why do we want to shoot less bucks? Surely we don't want to breed more does and add to the over-population problem?
FD, Ill start by saying that this is strictly "MY FINDINGS AND OBSERVATIONS". Now that, that's crystal crear, no-one can say Im wrong!
2003-2005 were absolutely bumper crop years, I was seeing deer by the hundreds, picking and choosing and passing bucks by the dozens!!! In 2006 something was different, I dont know what it was or what happened but all the places I used to see all them deer, were WAY down or near void???? It didnt get any better in 2007, this past year was the worst. Alot of my 100 mile buddies that usually bag 2 or 3 decent bucks a year didnt get 1last season, myself included!
Overpopulation my ass!!! I dont give a rats ass what some stats say, they are 3 years old, and the buck to doe ratio IS very poor up there IMO!
Mark,
I will start with my observations and findings. The last few years have had very very little snow accumilations come Nov haven't they??? The reason why hunters have been having a tough time killing bucks in Nov isn't because the deer have all died, it is because they are still up high. In much of the southern part of the province, the deer herds are very migratory. If there is no snow to push the bucks low onto the winter range, then you will have a hard time seeing bucks on the winter range will you not? If you paid attention to the herds the last few Aprils, you would have noticed that there are a ton of deer with nubs on their heads in those large groups of deer chasing the first greens. For the most part those bucks didn't show up on the winter range until well after the season ended. Heck, some don't show up until Feb. This is described in detail in Val Geist's book, Mule Deer Country. He points out that it really happens mainly in BC because we have V-shaped valleys and with short migrations from summer range to winter range. The bucks will stay up high till they are nut deep or deeper. If the snow becomes an issue for them, they practically swim down the mountain till they are in less snow. So, you are right, the deer counts down on the winter ranges are indeed BS. They are missing the bulk of the bucks who still haven't reached that open sage/grassland country. They are also missing the bucks that are hanging out in the timber, which the big boys seems to gravitate too. If there was a big dieoff as many hunters who got skunked the last few years speculate, would there not be deadheads scattered all over the place when you shed hunt?
OK, you guys keep hunting the long weekend :lol: I will spend my time in the unproductive last five days of the season :lol:
PGK,
Your lack of experience shows. Hit the books a little harder and you'll see that Mark is right. The peak of the rut is indeed the 11th-20th. Do you think the managers in the OK and Koots randomly picked the 10th for their closures???? Nope, actually considerable science behind it. Before Jelly resurects his "Best 3 days to kill a Monster Muley" thread, here is the answer to the question. Why do ya think Horshur was calling my Bullshit in the other thread? Because he fully knows the 11th-20th is what I really care about. News Flash!!!! This just in. Dana admits to when the best time to kill a monster muley!!!! News Flash!!!! Nov 11-20th is the Best to kill in the West!!!! News Flash!!!! Monster Muley dies on the tracks on Nov 15th!!!!
Why do I like to hunt all the way till Dec 10th then? Hmmm, with migratory deer, snow is the key. Many a big buck will get laid in the Rhodo Jungles of the ESSF if there is no snow to push them low. The later in the season, the better chance that the weather will work in your favour. The Big Boys are long finished rutting by Dec. Heck, most are done by the 20th and then they go straight back up the mountain to heal up and rest in those rhodo jungles. It is the little dinks that roam the sage with their tongues hanging out after the 20th. They are just hoping and wishin they find a doe that the big boys missed. They are the ones that seem to be easy targets during the rut, as they loose their brains completely and don't eat and barely sleep for a month as they look for pussy. They are no different than teenagers in the human race.
Honest hunters bullshit, good hunters lie :lol:
Fisher-Dude
03-01-2009, 07:46 PM
Dana's right, it's been weather-related. Anytail and I have done well in our little honey hole - we changed spots by a couple of kms because of some new clearcuts, but the deer are there and we should have had two bucks this past fall instead of one (I should be looking in the cut at the buck standing instead of scraping mud off my boots :oops: ). The best hunting I had in that area was when the snows pushed the bucks off the high country, and they were all over where I hunt - saw 9 bucks in one morning before shooting a nice 6x4.
IF there had been a die-off, as Dana says, there would be carcasses everywhere, and there weren't. I was shed hunting in the E Koots the spring after the 1997/8 die-off, and elk and deer carcasses were stacked like cordwood everywhere we went on the winter range. You'll definitely have evidence of a die-off if it has occurred - it hasn't.
I think the massive amounts of missing pinus contorta may have changed the habits of the deer in 100 Mile too Mark - it's wayyyyy different from 3 years ago.
leadpillproductions
03-01-2009, 07:50 PM
let the little ones grow any one can shoot a little baby buck that sits there and looks pretty let them grow youll see more deer just head north and youll see what i mean
GoatGuy
03-01-2009, 07:54 PM
I am understanding that this is just a 10 day closure during the peak of the rut from the 11-20th right? And then it would be open for 4 point or better for the end of the season? If I am correct, I don't see why this would hurt the Region 3 late seasons. Currently, the bulk of the out-of region hunters have been pounding Region 5 from the 15-30. A lot were taking avantage of the 2 buck limit and hoping for snow for the big boys to come down to the lower ground. With a week break, I think there would be reduced out-of-region hunter pressure but you would still see many show up during that last week hunt. Sure, Region 3 would see some tranfer during that peak rut week, but probably not more than we could handle. With the current warm trends we've seen in both regions, no snow means very few big bucks hitting the ground and with the 4 point restriction maintained in Region 3, I don't think it would grow to be a conservation concern. Of course, this is only if I'm understanding this proposal correctly. If it is a Nov 10th closure and no furthur hunting beyond that point, then you are indeed right, the Region 3 late hunt will be extinct as well.
The reason Region 5 from begin of Nov til the 20th is because they have an area that's relatively easy to hunt and you can hunt any buck during the rut. Close to 40% of the hunters come from Regions 1 and 2.
Many of the folks that are out there are meat hunters - they're looking to shoot a legal animal PERIOD. Some of that happens in Oct but the bulk of the harvest comes from the first 3 weeks in November (35-50%) depending on MU. Weird? No. Hunters go where there's opportunity. Any buck season during the rut and that dog will hunt.
Shut that down and they don't have any incentive to travel to those MUs. Next closest place gets hit. Whether they're rut hunters or any buck hunters it won't matter, most of them are going to end up in Region 3 because it's close. Means more hunters and higher harvest in Region 3.
Don't believe me ask your manager what he thinks.
So now you wonder why. Why are we talking about this season when we don't have a conservation concern and resident hunters in Region 5 don't support the proposal that was put together by the Region 5 staff?
Why wouldn't we just move to the 4 pt season on Nov 1 that was recommended by resident hunters in Region 5. It worked in the past and the folks were shooting what they consider 'good bucks'. Everybody was happy right?
Why aren't they asking other Region like 4 and 8 that have been hoarding their mule deer to loosen things up a bit?
The proposal talks about 'quality of hunt' and 'crowding issues'. Hmmm, what does that have to do with conservation? I really have no f'ing idea? If residents don't want this change who does?
Same with cutting the buck bag limit from 2 to 1. Why do we need to cut the bag limit to 1 when the second buck only makes up 1-1.5% of the harvest? Why was the original 2 buck bag limit split into the any buck and 4 pt season?
And all of this because we don't have a conservation concern. Awesome.
Really. When we have solutions that worked in the past and we don't have a conservation concern?
Read between the lines here folks.
Ridiculous.
GG, the lines are not clear to some (most) of us. Therefore I don't know what the line is, or what is found between them. Cut the typical GG reply and give it straight up.
Fisher-Dude
03-01-2009, 08:08 PM
let the little ones grow any on can shoot a little baby buck that sits there and looks pretty let them grow youll see more deer just head north and youll see what i mean
God Lord what planet are you on? The deer are to be managed for harvest opportunity, NOT for big deer. That herd in the north is in bad shape because of years of management like you are advocating.
Gateholio
03-01-2009, 08:39 PM
GG, the lines are not clear to some (most) of us. Therefore I don't know what the line is, or what is found between them. Cut the typical GG reply and give it straight up.
I imagine that since residents aren't asking for it and there is no conservation concern..someone is asking for it. User groups include- residents, FIrst Nations and Outfitters.
Manglinmike
03-01-2009, 08:43 PM
I've hunted region 5 for the last 7 yrs ,and the number of guys that come up for the doe hunt ,is the reson that the buck #s are down.If you give out 1400 draws and even only 20% of those guys shot a buck on that same rut hunt,thats a pile of bucks.I personally don't think that total close is right,just make the doe season a 4 point only season, so us guys that like to chase the big boys can still do so !
boxhitch
03-01-2009, 08:43 PM
GG, the lines are not clear to some (most) of us. Therefore I don't know what the line is, or what is found between them. Cut the typical GG reply and give it straight up.If you had been paying attention, you can see that some proposals work against all logic and science, they are emotional. What does that have to do with the average hunter? nothing.
The average hunter is quietly wishing for a good opportunity close to home, while a small very vocal faction tries to steer what will become best for their own interests.
Politics and Science = oil and water
boxhitch
03-01-2009, 08:46 PM
so us guys that like to chase the big boys can still do so !Like you are restricted now ? Big bucks are killed every year, regardless of the regs. Your choice.
If every buck was born a four point, some hunters would go empty.
boxhitch
03-01-2009, 08:50 PM
Why do we need to cut the bag limit to 1 when the second buck only makes up 1-1.5% of the harvest? .........
......Ridiculous.......Nieve viewers think 2 is 100% more than 1. 100% ! Thats too much :shock:
Timbow
03-01-2009, 09:08 PM
I imagine that since residents aren't asking for it and there is no conservation concern..someone is asking for it. User groups include- residents, FIrst Nations and Outfitters.
The last user group you listed is the real cause. What I was told was, quote "who wants to pay $4000 to shoot a 2-point " by a member of the CGOA.
TRIPALM
03-01-2009, 09:15 PM
its too bad that it has to go this far downhill ,its like mismanagment of wildlife ,i agree the only reason does are LEh is for prophet ,they did the sawme with the moose in that region ,it was a full open from sept-dec,then a 2 week general open ,to a draw onlw mismanagment all over again
Oh well, I will plan my deer hunting next year when the regs come out like usual. I'll go where everyone else isn't....like usual.....and kill nothing
Dana... FD... You guys dont have to remind me of the crappy late season conditions the past few years, I know it all to well. And yes thats led to the lack of big bucks for some.
Well how about some non migratory deer??? How about some of the huge private land areas like the Soda Cr. McCallister rd north of williams lake, or the gang ranch fields???? In 2005 those places were absolutely infested with deer in sept. oct. day or night! Hasnt been the case in the past few years. I dont think the lack of snow or dying pines has had much to do with those places, any actual region 5 guys agree with my observations?????
For the record, I never said there was a die-off, just that something changed, im not sure what it is?????
Mark,
You think the herd on the Gang isn't migratory? The big boys come out of the Dash and Dill Dill and some come as far away as the Taseko if the real weather actually comes in. The weather ain't what it used to be. And that country has never held a ton of big bucks anyways. Look at the Lancasters. Damn they fluked out the first year they had that territory when they killed that 230 incher that was in Eastmans and Big Buck. Since then, they haven't killed shit. Really, 160-170 class bucks aren't anything special. Who would want to spend the big time dollars to kill mediocre bucks. Blame it on global warming or blame it on a natural cycle, but I still stand by my words on Jelly's "Best 3 days to hunt monster muleys", the early season is where it's at. The late season sucks if the weather doesn't happen. I still find I can get r done, but it is a hard hard hunt. One needs to go higher and hunt the thicker stuff. That ain't fun when she's snap, crackle, pop conditions. If you are focused on being a big buck hunter, you have to adapt to what is thrown at ya. With all this talk of losing the rut hunts, I'm already changing my plans and know I will be the better for it. I have always saved my Region 3 tag for the late season, and focused on the highcountry in other Regions. Not anymore. I've decided to change er up and I have confidence if I do my homework right, I should be able to be tagged out in Region 3 within the first week of the season this year. That will leave the rest of the year for hunting with my family and chasing moose and other critters.
Fisher-Dude
03-01-2009, 10:11 PM
I've hunted region 5 for the last 7 yrs ,and the number of guys that come up for the doe hunt ,is the reson that the buck #s are down.If you give out 1400 draws and even only 20% of those guys shot a buck on that same rut hunt,thats a pile of bucks.I personally don't think that total close is right,just make the doe season a 4 point only season, so us guys that like to chase the big boys can still do so !
All the studies and science proves that 4 point seasons do NOT produce bigger bucks. Wanna try again?
Honest hunters bullshit, good hunters lie :lol:
A real good hunter throws both truth and lies out there, especially during the internet age. That way, the ground work is layed that no one will ever believe you. Just look at the maps of dana's hidey holes that were accidently released. Are they fake or are they real? Not many really know. ;)
Again, you dont have to tell me about deer that migrate into there for winter, I dont need to read geists book to figure that out!
dana, you did all that typing cuz you didnt read my post very carefully. I mentioned the sept and oct so as we were clearly not talking about migratory deer.
The gand fields in 2005, I took a drive through on a warm mid oct. afternoon, I counted at least 700 mule deer, maybe more. Soda cr. rd was good for about 200 deer in 20 minutes. Havnt seen it like that since???
Thats what Ive been trying to get across, that 2005 was the most deer Ive ever seen, and the hunting was the easiest Ive ever experienced, wheather conditions aside its been all down hill since then IMO.
Just my obsevations, no-one has to agree!
If this season closer happens, it wont be to my benefit, but I think its a good thing!
Timbow
03-01-2009, 10:57 PM
Mark,
I know for a fact that the deer you probably saw in the Soda Creek in the fields around late Sept and Oct. are likely migratory. I know because I know some of the ranches. Usually around Thanksgiving the deer migrate into the fields. And the deer that do come in are not trophy quality. I stopped hunting when I witnessed over one dozen and a half camps of hunters from out of the region during mid-November on the Mackin Creek FSR.
The pine beetle harvest has been going on in Quesnel area since 1999 with harvest elevating in 2001-02. That's several years of prime foilage for the deer delaying migration and add the fact that the snow is coming after the season even further causes delay.
Just my 0.02 cents
Mark,
What was the weather like the first couple weeks of Sept in the high country in 2005? It was horendous. I know, cause I was in it up in the Chilco area. My brother was on the other side of the Chilcotins the same week. Tons of snow. So much so the outfitter had to take the horses out the back way because he couldn't get the horses out his normal route. When the highcountry gets that much snow that early, the migration starts. It doesn't take long for the does, fawns and younger bucks to bail. No doubt they would have filled up the fields on the Gang early that year.
2005 was a great snow year and thus a great rut hunt year. Why do you think the dana crew did so well that year???? Because of the snow is why. 2004 was much the same. The highcountry got pounded hard early and the big boys bailed early. Thus 2004 saw good bucks getting dropped across the province. It was a banner year with a surpising amount of true big bucks getting harvested.
All one needs to do is read Eastmans or Muley Crazy from one year to the next. The years where there is a good amount of snow to hunt in across the West are the years that see a good number of trophy bucks getting killed. The years where it is dry with a lack of snow, very few trophy bucks getting killed. This isn't rocket science. Last year was a terrible season for the majority of the west, including the majority of the province.
sfire436
03-01-2009, 11:44 PM
There is mule deer in the caribou??? when did this happen?
CJ-Jim
03-02-2009, 09:10 AM
Goat Guy on Page 4 - You are very close with what you have posted - the IDEA of MY ORIGINAL post was to bring attention to what the F&Game are doing in region 5 -
1 - they are not listening to the the hunters or even the local hunt clubs about the situation in Region 5
2 - the F & Game are using the LEH as a CASH - COW to bring in Extra Revnue
3 - Farmers are using the System too profit - F&Game have nice little private meetings with the farmers in Williams Lake to discuss compensation for the upcoming year every Fall - public is not asked to attend !!
FOR YOU TROPHY GUY,S -
1 - Most Local Hunters are more interested in Game Meat for thier frezzer then a trophy !!!
2 - so we close down the rut what does that do to help the Trophy Guy,s ?? WELL we have MORE Deer come Next Spring ! - but you are going to have to wait 4-5 years for your trophy and GUESS what about the NEW Does born as well in that 4-5 years IS THE RATIO Going to improve ???
pitbell
03-02-2009, 10:52 AM
CJ-Jim,
I am pleased with this decision. I for one am willing to wait for a few years for the number of mature bucks to increase. If most hunters are meat hunters, then why would they care if they close a portion of the rut? Wouldn't they rather be taking the young bucks or doe s earlier on in the season? I agree the buck to doe ratio is out of wack, but I think this is a step in the right direction.
BCrams
03-02-2009, 11:06 AM
CJ-Jim,
I am pleased with this decision. I for one am willing to wait for a few years for the number of mature bucks to increase. If most hunters are meat hunters, then why would they care if they close a portion of the rut? Wouldn't they rather be taking the young bucks or doe s earlier on in the season? I agree the buck to doe ratio is out of wack, but I think this is a step in the right direction.
There are plenty of mature bucks to be hunted. Its the 'hunter' who needs to adapt to the conditions and what / where to look for bucks.
Even for "meat" hunters, November hunting is synonomous with crisp cool weather, snow, bucks on the move, wall tents and wood stoves etc....
18-19.5:100 is out of whack? You sure about that?Do you work for an outfitter?
GoatGuy
03-02-2009, 11:23 AM
Goat Guy on Page 4 - You are very close with what you have posted - the IDEA of MY ORIGINAL post was to bring attention to what the F&Game are doing in region 5 -
1 - they are not listening to the the hunters or even the local hunt clubs about the situation in Region 5
2 - the F & Game are using the LEH as a CASH - COW to bring in Extra Revnue
3 - Farmers are using the System too profit - F&Game have nice little private meetings with the farmers in Williams Lake to discuss compensation for the upcoming year every Fall - public is not asked to attend !!
FOR YOU TROPHY GUY,S -
1 - Most Local Hunters are more interested in Game Meat for thier frezzer then a trophy !!!
2 - so we close down the rut what does that do to help the Trophy Guy,s ?? WELL we have MORE Deer come Next Spring ! - but you are going to have to wait 4-5 years for your trophy and GUESS what about the NEW Does born as well in that 4-5 years IS THE RATIO Going to improve ???
CJ Jim,
Most hunters are looking to put meat in the freezer, not just the guys in Region 5. Give hunters a hunting season (not an anti-hunting season) and they will flock to it.
There's plenty of guys on here who talk about wanting more big bucks - they aren't representative of resident hunters. They're also the same guys who are shooting the first 4 pt they see or shooting a 'meat buck' at the end of the season. They want more big bucks but they're the ones shooting the bucks with potential? Weird.
I think what they're saying is "regulate everybody else to my standards so I can shoot a bigger buck every year." Now a bigger buck still isn't a big buck, it's just bigger than the 120" 4 pt they shot last year. Or better yet some of those guys have never even shot a 4 pt. Funny how that goes.:shock:
"Let's make the height requirement for this ride 6' because I don't feel like waiting in line"
Personally, I think that seasons should be about conservation. I see a couple hundred muley bucks every year and I've only shot a couple mulies in the last 10 years because I'm looking for something special. I don't think other hunters should be regulated to my standards. If that means I have to hike another 10 miles a day and hunt harder and longer than other hunters so be it. The point is I have the choice to hold out and the rest of hunters have the choice to fill the freezer. We all have choices.
Closing the season or moving to a 4 pt season means I still have the choice but other hunters don't. Is that fair?
If people want big bucks they need to hunt for them. That's the way it has always been and will always be.
Fisher-Dude
03-02-2009, 01:22 PM
Those like pitbell who think that they can "wait a few years" and shoot more mature bucks are sadly mistaken. Four point seasons do NOT produce more bigger bucks in a herd. How many times do we have to repeat that? Where do guys like pitbell get this mistaken impression that 4 point seasons produce more big bucks? They don't, plain and simple, as proven by the studies done on jurisdictions that have tried 4 point seasons. Tim Hortons bullshit sessions do NOT make for scientifically valid game management practices and decisions, and it's sad to see sound science by trained biologists get trumped by bullshit and misconception!
Also, once a season is given up, you won't be getting it back. First Nations will put the kybwash on any liberalization of seasons - you region 5 dudes remember when you used to be able to hunt moose, right?
pitbell
03-02-2009, 01:28 PM
BCRams,
Your right that I would have to adapt to be successfull. Fisher-Dude, think before you type. I thought we were talking about a 10 day rut closure and a 1 buck bag limit, not the 4 point season. My point is, like Mark is saying, I used to see plenty of great bucks in region 5 before 2004 and I don't anymore. As far as doe to buck ratio goes, maybe theres no problem. I am just going by what people are telling me. If there is no problem then where are your big region five bucks from the last few years?
BCRams, I do work for an outfitter, but not in Region 5.
jessbennett
03-02-2009, 01:29 PM
Those like pitbell who think that they can "wait a few years" and shoot more mature bucks are sadly mistaken. Four point seasons do NOT produce more bigger bucks in a herd. How many times do we have to repeat that? Where do guys like pitbell get this mistaken impression that 4 point seasons produce more big bucks? They don't, plain and simple, as proven by the studies done on jurisdictions that have tried 4 point seasons. Tim Hortons bullshit sessions do NOT make for scientifically valid game management practices and decisions, and it's sad to see sound science by trained biologists get trumped by bullshit and misconception!
Also, once a season is given up, you won't be getting it back. First Nations will put the kybwash on any liberalization of seasons - you region 5 dudes remember when you used to be able to hunt moose, right?
i just thought it was cause there is no was no moose in region 5?????????:lol::tongue:. . . . . . .
jessbennett
03-02-2009, 01:35 PM
BCRams,
Your right that I would have to adapt to be successfull. The point is, like Mark is saying, I used to see plenty of great bucks in region 5 before 2005 and I don't anymore. As far as doe to buck ratio goes, maybe theres no problem. I am just going by what people are telling me. Where's your big region five bucks from the last couple of years?
I do work for an outfitter, but not in Region 5.
there still is plenty of great bucks in region 5. theres lots actually. i seen more this past year then in previous years.
pitbell
03-02-2009, 01:46 PM
That's good to here.
one-shot-wonder
03-02-2009, 01:48 PM
CJ Jim,
Most hunters are looking to put meat in the freezer, not just the guys in Region 5. Give hunters a hunting season (not an anti-hunting season) and they will flock to it.
There's plenty of guys on here who talk about wanting more big bucks - they aren't representative of resident hunters. They're also the same guys who are shooting the first 4 pt they see or shooting a 'meat buck' at the end of the season. They want more big bucks but they're the ones shooting the bucks with potential? Weird.
I think what they're saying is "regulate everybody else to my standards so I can shoot a bigger buck every year." Now a bigger buck still isn't a big buck, it's just bigger than the 120" 4 pt they shot last year. Or better yet some of those guys have never even shot a 4 pt. Funny how that goes.:shock:
"Let's make the height requirement for this ride 6' because I don't feel like waiting in line"
Personally, I think that seasons should be about conservation. I see a couple hundred muley bucks every year and I've only shot a couple mulies in the last 10 years because I'm looking for something special. I don't think other hunters should be regulated to my standards. If that means I have to hike another 10 miles a day and hunt harder and longer than other hunters so be it. The point is I have the choice to hold out and the rest of hunters have the choice to fill the freezer. We all have choices.
Closing the season or moving to a 4 pt season means I still have the choice but other hunters don't. Is that fair?
If people want big bucks they need to hunt for them. That's the way it has always been and will always be.
Well said.......
As for the height requirement can you make it 5'9" :-P
one-shot-wonder
03-02-2009, 01:57 PM
The last user group you listed is the real cause. What I was told was, quote "who wants to pay $4000 to shoot a 2-point " by a member of the CGOA.
Absolutely....outfitters are the biggest reason in Region 8 we can't get a season liberalized.
Catering to a user group about a tenth of the size and to individuals that don't call this province 'their' own. :mad:
All the more reason we need unity among users.....
* I am gonna plug another thread and remind every one to vote. *
rocket
03-02-2009, 01:59 PM
imo the reason we are going to 1 instead of 2 deer is because of the leh does. Guys come up for a doe draw and shoot bucks and a doe too. seen it lots up here. I agree that we should have a seperate doe season. As a local I can assure you victoria has never asked us about any decisions.
BCrams
03-02-2009, 02:06 PM
Your right that I would have to adapt to be successfull. My point is, like Mark is saying, I used to see plenty of great bucks in region 5 before 2004 and I don't anymore.
My point exactly. You need to adapt. There are plenty of great bucks running around in Reg 5. You talk like there's supposed to be a monster muley behind every tree or you can see big bucks running all over the country.
Might have been listening to the Clearwater area stories too much - big buck behind every tree BS and you want the same in Reg. 5!
I am amazed how guys will go on a few trips where the stars don't align and start harping on how seasons need to be changed because they're not seeing great bucks.
As far as doe to buck ratio goes, maybe theres no problem. I am just going by what people are telling me.
Now you know the truth. You can take the factual 18-19.5:100 ratio back to your buddies and say, "You know what, there's no problem with buck to doe ratios in Region 5."
pitbell
03-02-2009, 03:10 PM
BCRams,
I don't need your advice on hunting deer in region 5. But thanks tips. Where are all your big buck pictures? Oh thats right, you were too busy shooting young meat bucks in region 7b.;-)joke.
jessbennett
03-02-2009, 03:14 PM
and this is where the conversation goes south................:-?
BCrams
03-02-2009, 03:21 PM
BCRams,
I don't need your advice on hunting deer in region 5. But thanks tips. Where are all your big buck pictures? Oh thats right, you were too busy shooting young meat bucks in region 7b.:wink:joke.
Aww heck. Had to shoot a meat bucks sooner or later.
Great ! ! Just f#@#!$g wonderful! ! Now everyone that wants a mule deer wil be coming to the already overcrowded Kootenays.
budismyhorse
03-02-2009, 03:24 PM
I doubt it, we are still in the 4 pt or better "recovery" days.
houndogger
03-02-2009, 04:14 PM
Great ! ! Just f#@#!$g wonderful! ! Now everyone that wants a mule deer wil be coming to the already overcrowded Kootenays.
Which way do I turn after I get off the ferries? Or do I just follow all the other hunting trucks:biggrin:
BCRams,
Your right that I would have to adapt to be successfull. Fisher-Dude, think before you type. I thought we were talking about a 10 day rut closure and a 1 buck bag limit, not the 4 point season. My point is, like Mark is saying, I used to see plenty of great bucks in region 5 before 2004 and I don't anymore. As far as doe to buck ratio goes, maybe theres no problem. I am just going by what people are telling me. If there is no problem then where are your big region five bucks from the last few years?
BCRams, I do work for an outfitter, but not in Region 5.
You are not seeing the number of bucks because of one thing, the weather. It never ceases to amaze me that hunters who have been hunting for numerous years, guys who actually claim to be big buck killers, can't figure these things out on their own. Guys it is not rocket science. Put the pieces of the puzzle together. If there wasn't a huge winter kill die off and there aren't deadheads laying all over the winter range, then why aren't there any bucks? Hmmm, what has been different? The world is in constant change. If BC trophy hunters can't adapt, then too freakin bad. If a hunter is too dumb or too lazy to figure out that the big boys haven't been forced down low due to the lack of snow then that is just too bad for them. That goes for the outfitters as well. Geeze, one of the best top dollar species in the west today and the bloody BC outfitters haven't friggin caught on to the fact that they are being left in the dust because they don't have a bloody clue how to kill trophy bucks. It has nothing to do with seasons and everything to do with the fact they are pathetic at getting the job done. How in the hell are ya going to sell a hunt if a client can go to CO, UT, AZ, NV, WY, ID or NM and hunt with outfitters who consistantly get the job done. Meanwhile, the BC outfitters sleep in all summer, don't have a friggin clue how to scout for the biggest and the baddest on the mountain. It is pretty pathetic that a bunch of weekend warriors like dana's crew can whack and stack the big boys on a regular basis and outfitters are lucky if they kill one decent buck every 7 years. It is so bad that the outfitters in BC have become the laughing stock around the west when it comes to killing big bucks. Just read last year's Canada/Mexico issue of Muley Crazy. An Alberta outfitter was harsh and blunt and he was right. If these season changes are to appease the Region 5 outfitters, they won't do a world of good. Until these guys figure out trophy mule deer they won't have a clue how to kill one.
Ambush
03-02-2009, 07:23 PM
a bunch of weekend warriors like dana's crew can whack and stack the big boys on a regular basis
How many 190" plus bucks has your crew "whacked and stacked" in the last five years?
To me a truly great hunter is not one who passes up deer every year, but rather one who can find and shoot a great buck every year. And that's not me, by the way.
BC simply does not hold the numbers of trophy bucks that most of the states that you listed do. Some of those states manage a portion of their herds and habitat for trophy quality.
For the same money, would you rather hunt ten days in BC or in Utah, if you were in a big buck contest?
Not to be a jerk, but you spend a lot of time demeaning other people's efforts and abilities.
Fisher-Dude
03-02-2009, 07:25 PM
Which way do I turn after I get off the ferries? Or do I just follow all the other hunting trucks:biggrin:
Lemme know when you're going. I'll draw you a map to Cole's favourite hunting stand. :smile:
Fisher-Dude
03-02-2009, 07:27 PM
How many 190" plus bucks has your crew "whacked and stacked" in the last five years?
You asked for it. Quite a few. LOL!
How many 190" plus bucks has your crew "whacked and stacked" in the last five years?
To me a truly great hunter is not one who passes up deer every year, but rather one who can find and shoot a great buck every year. And that's not me, by the way.
BC simply does not hold the numbers of trophy bucks that most of the states that you listed do. Some of those states manage a portion of their herds and habitat for trophy quality.
For the same money, would you rather hunt ten days in BC or in Utah, if you were in a big buck contest?
Not to be a jerk, but you spend a lot of time demeaning other people's efforts and abilities.
Are you new here? Do you really need to ask that question???? Just for shits and giggles though, I will answer that question but I'll go with the last 6 years instead. :wink: The members of the dana crew have whacked and stacked 6 190 or better bucks in the last 6 years. 5 of which were 200 or better. On top of that, there have been numerous 170-185 bucks killed as well. Name one BC outfitter that has that kind of track record. :tongue: That is just 4 guys gettin it done as weekend warriors. BTW, 3 or those 6 bucks were mine. In the last 6 years I personally have killed a 190 10x4 Triple Dropper, a 178 4x4 Typical, a 202 9x7 and a 199 6/8 7x7.
If I had a choice between Utah or BC DIY, I'd pick BC hands down. If the choice was guided only, Utah wins the race. I know a ton of trophy muley nuts from south of the border. I get emails all the time from Yanks that just would love to kill the quality of bucks that me and my buddies kill. Many have the desire to come to BC to hunt, but they are sadly disappointed when I tell them that the outfitters here are not trophy mule deer focused. Heck, many don't even sell mule deer hunts except as an add on to moose, bear, or goats. As an add on for pete sakes. Just go on the GOABC website and click on the individual outfitter's sites. Look in the photo galleries. It's freakin pathetic. 120 class muleys posted up as trophies. Some seem capable of killing 150 class bucks and some will have the odd pic of a giant that they lucked into 15 years ago.
Which way do I turn after I get off the ferries? Or do I just follow all the other hunting trucks:biggrin:
When you get off the fairy , head towards Whistler, but just keep on goin North until you get to Quesnel and then keep on going 'till you get to Prince George and then hang a left onto the YellowHead Highway and drive 4 more hours and your there. Enjoy the scenery along the way !! :smile::smile::smile::smile::smile::razz::razz::ra zz::razz::razz:
GoatGuy
03-02-2009, 08:00 PM
BC simply does not hold the numbers of trophy bucks that most of the states that you listed do. Some of those states manage a portion of their herds and habitat for trophy quality.
"LEH SUCKS: AGAIN!!"
Like the sig - want to be able to drive around and shoot big bucks out of your window you better move now because it will be at least 3 years until you get a draw so that you can go hunt mule deer in one of those 'trophy quality' areas.
Even then those trophy areas does not guarantee you a big buck. In fact most of the bucks that are shot are small because the guys can't help themselves because they know they're going to have to wait another 3 years.
If you're a sh8tty hunter you'll still shoot a rat. Same goes for BC. There's lots of big bucks. Most of the guys that are complaining are the guys that won't find them even if we did have LEH.
Same goes for wt's around here. Every year get to hear from hunters about how the wts are down BIG TIME and there's no big bucks left. Most of these guys have never even shot a 5 pt let alone anything half decent. Sh8tty hunters, that's it.
For the same money, would you rather hunt ten days in BC or in Utah, if you were in a big buck contest?
This is interesting, I didn't know that the goal of hunting was to win a big buck contest?
Tell me about your corvette.......................................... ..:shock:
I can tell you one thing, I've got buddies that have been putting in for 15 plus years for some trophy class units in the states and they know they will be old old men before they will be able to hunt those units. But those same guys are consistantly killing monsters that make my bucks look like absolute dinks. They hunt sleeper units every year that sell underprescribed. Imagine that eh? Kinda throws the LEH big buck theory out the window don't it.
GoatGuy
03-02-2009, 08:10 PM
I used to see plenty of great bucks in region 5 before 2004 and I don't anymore.
How many great bucks did you see in 2004?
20?
30?
How big is a great buck? 180? 190? 200+?
Dead pictures?
Ambush
03-02-2009, 08:59 PM
Dana: Impressive states, I've heard lots of rumors, now I have some numbers.
GoatGuy. Take some Midol man, I assume your PMSing. I was not attacking anyone. Not my style, I try to stay civil.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif
I did not say I was a trophy hunter, nor did I give an opinion on the pending new season. I did not say I wanted to see more or bigger bucks.
I did not say I would rather live in Utah than BC. After 28 years I still like it here.
You read a lot into a post that was made by some one you've never met.
Oh yeah, and LEh for me does suck.
pitbell
03-03-2009, 08:56 AM
Broken record. Everyone knows the weather has played a huge role in the lack of mature bucks in Region five. No one is asking for a crash course on how to kill big bucks and where they are. I know guys who hunt the high country and are not seeing the number of large bucks they have in previous years. So I guess these guys are wrong as well. Dana, I have learned a ton from reading your posts on Mule deer here, and on MM. I know, unlike some people on this site, that you are the real deal. Are you saying Region 5 has no problems and we should keep things the way they are? Do you think that the hunting has actually gotten better for mature bucks since they extended the any buck season? Do you think these new regulations will do no good at all?
BCrams
03-03-2009, 10:12 AM
Broken record. Everyone knows the weather has played a huge role in the lack of mature bucks in Region five.
I don't think they were saying weather is causing a lack of mature bucks ... but rather where they are and changed behaviour. Even traditional alpine spots like a particular drainage which held the mature bucks, can easily up and move 5 km away deluding hunters into thinking they've died off.
I know guys who hunt the high country and are not seeing the number of large bucks they have in previous years.
Ask Dana about this one. He hasn't seen any mature alpine bucks in his traditional area either for the last 3 or so years - they changed their behaviour / places. He knows they're still around but just not where he usually sees them. It isn't just the winter weather that is the driving factor. My understanding is those Chilcotin bucks had no need to go up high into those lush basins when the timbered valleys by those mountains were just as lush.
Are you saying Region 5 has no problems and we should keep things the way they are?
The buck:doe ratio's are good. Although from a personal stand point, I could never wrap my head around why the regional manager changed the 4 pt season to any buck. If it isn't broke, why change it?
The current proposed season change (again) is something I just cannot wrap my head around no matter how I look at it with the data on the table.
It raises the question of 'who' the change is for? Who benefits more? Obviously caters to the Guide Outfitters and not the resident hunters.
Do you think that the hunting has actually gotten better for mature bucks since they extended the any buck season? Do you think these new regulations will do no good at all?
Like many have already stated. No problem finding mature bucks. Myself included and there are plenty to go around. Especially with the buck to doe ratios as they are.
The key is "buck:doe" ratios.
Your comments would be valid if the recent aerial surveys indicated buck to doe rations of say 2 to 5 bucks:100 does. But its not :smile: It now boils down to the hunter......to find those bucks. :wink:
The new proposed changes in reality is BS given the ratios, no conservation concern, ignoring the wants / needs of BC hunters / resident hunters.
Who's need(s) is the regional bio trying to really meet?
Pit - you're a guide. A hunter. Surely you and your friends don't need such changes to find mature bucks or big ones ???? I don't. We're just a drop in a bucket compared to most hunters out there and what they would like to shoot.
Rams.. Im just curious.... I keep hearing the buck-doe ratio is good in reg. 5....
So who is actually doing these counts???
Where do they do this????
When and how is it done???
And how often... when was the last time????
BCrams
03-03-2009, 10:33 AM
Rams.. Im just curious.... I keep hearing the buck-doe ratio is good in reg. 5....
So who is actually doing these counts???
MOE
Objective:
1. Classify mule deer to obtain herd composition.
2. Data used to assess whether the deer population meets the desired targets in the Wildlife Harvest Strategy.
3. Data used to determine whether changes to the current structure of the hunting season need to be considered.
Level 1
(This is high quality data with much background information regarding purpose
and method. Statistical efficacy of this data is high.)
[quote]Where do they do this????
Typically within winter range habitat. Similar to sheep counts when they're in favourable habitat / areas to count. (keep in mind, most deer are not even on the winter range they're getting these ratios)
When and how is it done???
Using a Bell 206 Jet ranger helicopter, the classification counts are conducted on several existing survey blocks within the more open habitats along the Fraser River. These total count surveys are conducted in late-November/early-December when the mule deer still have antlers and bucks are dispersed within the Doe/Fawn groups. RISC standards are followed for the survey designs and modified class 4 classification levels will be attempted on all deer observed during the survey (does, fawns, class 1-4 bucks). Experience with past surveys has shown that yearling bucks cannot be readily distinguishable from class 1 bucks with consistency so the two categories have been lumped together. Survey blocks are flown with transects spaced at 400-500 m intervals based on complexity of habitat so as to cover all available habitat in the survey block. Surveys are only flown if sufficient snow cover and are restricted to the first 2-3 hours of the morning when deer are most active
And how often... when was the last time????
They have done these surveys for years. Especially the last few!
thanks for the info, its pretty much what I thougth I knew!
Ive certainly been in those areas in early dec. driven through the gang fields, canoe cr, dog cr. ect. I can tell ya Ive never seen the herds to anywhere close to 19 bucks per 100. Unless of course were assuming that every second fawn out there is a buck???????
What is 'recent' counts. We both know there wasn't a single flight done this year. That's another thing thats been bugging me. How can they make a regulations change if they haven't done a flight in the last (two?) years?? Starting to smell more and more like GO pressuring MoE. Somebody needs to man up and spill the real beans, because I'm tired of rumours
Gateholio
03-03-2009, 12:55 PM
Starting to smell more and more like GO pressuring MoE. s
Really? Have GO's ever done this sort of thing before?:shock:
ruttinbuck
03-03-2009, 01:06 PM
So how organized and powerful of a lobby do resident hunters have to be before our wants are put ahead of GO?RB
Fisher-Dude
03-03-2009, 01:17 PM
thanks for the info, its pretty much what I thougth I knew!
Ive certainly been in those areas in early dec. driven through the gang fields, canoe cr, dog cr. ect. I can tell ya Ive never seen the herds to anywhere close to 19 bucks per 100. Unless of course were assuming that every second fawn out there is a buck???????
Fawns aren't counted as either does or bucks. They are left out of the buck:doe ratio.
thatskindafunny
03-03-2009, 01:18 PM
I hunted region 5-2 since 1990. Between the 3 of us we would harvest 3 to 5 deer. 3 of them being a trophy on anyones wall. We would see maybe only up to 20 deer in the 10 days of hunting between us. We saw no other hunters except for the guide. They switched to 4 points or better November 1st. We end up getting 3 4 points every year. Still no hunters. We would see about 30 deer each in the 10 days. Ok, let's put in the hunting reg's that Sucker Lake that has been closed for 6 years is now open and take away the 4 point rule and CRAP there was alot of hunters. I haven't gone the last 3 years but my partner's have and at different times of the year and found it to be real poor. Very few deer they saw let alone bucks. No biologist or anything like that, just what I see with my own eyes...... the 4 points or better November 1st I believe worked. Just my opinion.
GoatGuy
03-03-2009, 03:51 PM
Broken record. Everyone knows the weather has played a huge role in the lack of mature bucks in Region five. No one is asking for a crash course on how to kill big bucks and where they are. I know guys who hunt the high country and are not seeing the number of large bucks they have in previous years. So I guess these guys are wrong as well. Dana, I have learned a ton from reading your posts on Mule deer here, and on MM. I know, unlike some people on this site, that you are the real deal. Are you saying Region 5 has no problems and we should keep things the way they are? Do you think that the hunting has actually gotten better for mature bucks since they extended the any buck season? Do you think these new regulations will do no good at all?
Sorry,
Let me ask again:
How many great bucks did you see in 2004?
20?
30?
How big is a great buck? 180? 190? 200+?
Dead pictures?
Timbow
03-03-2009, 04:54 PM
What is 'recent' counts. We both know there wasn't a single flight done this year. That's another thing thats been bugging me. How can they make a regulations change if they haven't done a flight in the last (two?) years?? Starting to smell more and more like GO pressuring MoE. Somebody needs to man up and spill the real beans, because I'm tired of rumours
Last flight was last year in the three areas identified as winter range. I'm not sure if it is identified as the critical wintering grounds or the next level up. The changes to the regs for region 5 was slated for the fall of '08 but the MOE got cold feet.
So nothing is final till the season begins. Lets hope logic prevails....:roll:
jasper
03-03-2009, 06:34 PM
Dana... FD... You guys dont have to remind me of the crappy late season conditions the past few years, I know it all to well. And yes thats led to the lack of big bucks for some.
Well how about some non migratory deer??? How about some of the huge private land areas like the Soda Cr. McCallister rd north of williams lake, or the gang ranch fields???? In 2005 those places were absolutely infested with deer in sept. oct. day or night! Hasnt been the case in the past few years. I dont think the lack of snow or dying pines has had much to do with those places, any actual region 5 guys agree with my observations?????
For the record, I never said there was a die-off, just that something changed, im not sure what it is?????
i live in region 5-1 and mark is right the buck doe ratio is terible and grounds that used to hold large numbers off deer are way down i used to turn down bucks all the time waiting for a good buck this year only seen a couple bucks and chose not to pass on a two point several people in the area didnt fill one tag let alone two i think that a two week doe season would be more helpful
i live in region 5-1 and mark is right the buck doe ratio is terible and grounds that used to hold large numbers off deer are way down i used to turn down bucks all the time waiting for a good buck this year only seen a couple bucks and chose not to pass on a two point several people in the area didnt fill one tag let alone two i think that a two week doe season would be more helpful
Its important to mention what months of the season yer talking about, as the others here are suggesting that, the late winters, causing a later migration, are the only factor.
I know the issues go way beyond migratory deer but im tired of giving examples as they only shoot em down!
Im repeatedly told Im wrong, cuz some guy in a helicopter saw lots of bucks one day, but I agree with you 100%
Mark, you're right. There is no way a guy in a helicopter can see more deer than a guy that's riding around in a truck. Love the logic there. :razz: Maybe you should start picking up some books and start reading. If you are interested in seeing how a deer count is actually done, pick up Magnum Mulies Vol 2. David Long (author of Public Land Mulies and field editor for Eastmans Journal) takes a ride with WY F&G and documents how the procedure is done. Pretty facinating stuff.
Broken record. Everyone knows the weather has played a huge role in the lack of mature bucks in Region five. No one is asking for a crash course on how to kill big bucks and where they are. I know guys who hunt the high country and are not seeing the number of large bucks they have in previous years. So I guess these guys are wrong as well. Dana, I have learned a ton from reading your posts on Mule deer here, and on MM. I know, unlike some people on this site, that you are the real deal. Are you saying Region 5 has no problems and we should keep things the way they are? Do you think that the hunting has actually gotten better for mature bucks since they extended the any buck season? Do you think these new regulations will do no good at all?
BCrams is very correct in saying I've experienced the exact same thing in several of my areas. I've had pieces of alpine where I used to see 12-18 bucks everytime I scouted them. Out of those bucks, normally a half a dozen were 175-185 inches and normally 1 or 2 that were absolute gaggers. The last few years, nada single big buck and maybe 2 or 3 dinks if I glass my eyeballs out. I've also observed the same thing on the winter range. It ain't that the bucks ain't around, they just have moved their desired feeding locations. It is something I've paid close attention to for years. Years ago I could find big sheds in certain areas and then whamo, no sheds. I cover the ground and pound new areas till I finally luck into where the bucks have moved to. The reasons for the moves can be as simple as the feed has been over browsed and they move on to better feed. It can also be much more complex than that. Bachelor groups are lead by the Master buck. He leads them to the same alpine basin every year. The Master dies. The bachelor group is disbanded and they join new Masters or become a Master themselves as they age and they choose their own summer range and abandon the former ranges.
A trophy hunter has to be always scouting new areas and always trying to piece the puzzle together. Sometimes you only have a few pieces to work with, other times the big picture is fairly clear.
But you can not tell me the bucks have disappeared to be no more cause that just ain't plausable. The winters have for the most part been extremely mild the last 10 years. In my neck of the woods the summers have been extremely wet the last few years. This makes lush feed and produces big antlers. But it also changes seasonal patterns. I have found a lot of deer aren't going as high as they used to because it is lush everywhere.
Now to your question regarding Region 5. I am in the same mindset as Rams. Why did they screw around with the any buck season in the first place? The Nov 4 point season was working for them. Like Rams said, if it ain't broke, why mess with it? I was pretty darn vocal about the season change back in 04. I saw the writting on the wall even then. And now, even if I said, "I told ya so" they still would think they were right in their decision making. Currently, I have a hard time getting my head wrapped around this proposal. Like I said earlier, the logical thing to do would be to change it back to the Nov 1 4 point opener. I am very concerned about how the decisions made in Region 5 will really affect the decisions that will be forced to be made in Region 3. If this results in a mass migration of out-of-region hunters to Region 3, region 5's goals will probably have been acheived. With Region 3 the only rut hunt available, it has the ability to get down right nasty here. I continue to hope that all southern Regions will sit down and work together to fix the mess, but I doubt that they have the willingness to do that. If working together doesn't work, I will be praying for yet another dry snowless Nov to make hunting conditions absolutely shitty. If we get a big snow year and a mass influx of out-of-region hunters, I will be the first one calling for the shut down of the Region 3 rut hunt.
While some here seem to think this proposal is outfitter driven, I kinda have my doubts. Like I said before, the outfitters have been pretty much a lame duck when it comes to trophy mule deer hunting. My gut tells me that it is more basic than that. I think the guys running the show in Region 5 are no different than other Regional offices. You've got a bunch of guys who are penis envy driven and what to become the next danas on the block. They thus far have been getting their asses handed to them, so they are going to cater the seasons for themselves in an effort to try to make their trophy dreams become a reality. That is what my gut tells me this whole issue is all about.
Fisher-Dude
03-03-2009, 09:06 PM
Here's another thought - we have high deer populations all over the southern part of the province now, and many areas where the whitetails have moved in. There are also more and more whitetails at higher elevations. I spoke to one of our ecosystems bios, and he believes the whitetails have followed logging right-of-ways, nicely seeded with clover mixes, into the higher elevations that were historically mule deer range.
I think the mulies have adapted, and searched out other areas to feed and breed. Interestingly, where I hunt in region 3, I'm finding predominantly whitetails at the higher elevations and mulies lower down. Whodathunkit?
FD,
For Regions 3 and 5, whitetails aren't a problem yet. Their populations are growing indeed, but I believe that is mainly because of our mild winters as of late. They will need to be kept in check, and I believe the long Region 3 season is definately designed to do that.
I believe the lack of buck sightings in Region 5 has other factors than just weather. When you are looking for a particular buck, it gives ya a chance to sit and watch other deer because you have no desire to kill them. I have watched bucks in the vehicle closure areas of the Churn feed peacefully at a distance. Then, their heads come up and they slowly move and enter the cover and disappear. 5 minutes later, a horseback hunter rides past. 20 mins later, the bucks are back feeding again until the next horseback hunter in which the bucks will do the exact same thing. The bucks are very conditioned in that area for heavy hunting pressure. When you throw a bunch more hunters in there, all chasing the anybuck meat dream, it don't take long and the older bucks will go almost nocturnal. The mule deer of today isn't the same as the mule deer that our father's hunted back in the 60's and 70's. They have indeed grown weary of hunters packin' a stick in their hands. You increase the hunter density in a given area like the Gang/Churn and you will see the bucks react to it by laying low, staying in the thick timber and going noctural.
Fisher-Dude
03-03-2009, 11:36 PM
FD,
For Regions 3 and 5, whitetails aren't a problem yet. Their populations are growing indeed, but I believe that is mainly because of our mild winters as of late. They will need to be kept in check, and I believe the long Region 3 season is definately designed to do that.
Saw a shitload of flagtails in 3 this fall, and helped the cause by shootin' one.
I also saw a buck and doe WT in region 5 this year right where we hunt our mulies - a first for me in the 11 years I've been going to the same spot. In a few years from now when 3m greenup hits those pine cuts, look out, 'cause it will be wall to wall white flags in the Christmas trees! ;)
Bigbear
03-04-2009, 10:49 AM
Well All I can tell you Fellas Is that Unless you Live here(Not Lived here a while ago, Hunted here for a week or two) But live here and see the actual amount of Game your self its hard to make a proper assessment. In the Archery shop Here all last year Most of the Fellas, And Ladies were saying they had a hard time finding Good Class Bucks. There lots of spikers, and Does , But not the Bigger Bucks.Still only alow 1 Buck, but I would Have Rather seen a 2 week doe season During the first part of the season .You hear People say Oh I just want a Meat Buck first , Then Ill go for the Big one. Why Not a Doe Instead? The Meat is Just as Good if not Better, That way The Doe Buck Ratio would Be kept up. It would Give some of them spikers a chance to Mature to Breed. Also Last year there was still some Rutting going on till the last part of Nov, like along the Fraser Benches where the Weather Patterns Are Warmer and doesn't get to the Cooler weather till a little later in the Fall
jml11
03-04-2009, 11:55 AM
The mule deer of today isn't the same as the mule deer that our father's hunted back in the 60's and 70's. They have indeed grown weary of hunters packin' a stick in their hands. You increase the hunter density in a given area like the Gang/Churn and you will see the bucks react to it by laying low, staying in the thick timber and going noctural.
My sentiments exactly, and I hope people are starting to understand this! This what the regualtion changes did in Region 5, increased hunter density. Over the past few years I have seen hunter numbers skyrocket in the area I hunt and people are quick to blame this increase for the lack of bucks because they are all being killed, but how come none of these camps seem to have deer hanging?? And people come back and whine on HBC about not seeing any deer?? Obviously they are not being harvested to extirpation.
My last trip was this past fall, I only hunted one day and ran into two bucks and one other deer in the dark that I could not ID (I was a long ways form the truck before I found deer). Pretty good buck/doe ratio if you ask me! ( I know that is not a very good sample to say the ratio is fine...just stating by observations). The number of deer I saw was defniteley lower than past years but my feeling is that migratory deer had not moved in yet (it was very warm and no snow during november hunt) and the resident deer were holding up in the timber. There was a decent amount of fresh sign suggesting a reasonable amount of resident deer in the area, I just didn't see them. I know if I had more time to spend in the area I would have found a decent buck.
My opinion is the lack of hunter success/reduced deer sightings is attributed to recent weather patterns and increased hunter prescence which has caused mule deer behaviour to change. This past season weather played a huge factor and not just in Region 5...province wide.
I can recall numerous threads posted here from hunts throughout the province with people complaining that they were skunked on their hunts and failed to see any animals, when in the past they have seen herds of critters in the same areas. The fall was warm and dry (at least here) and certainly played a role in altering animal behaviour locally. What about mountain pine beetle and fir beetle? Anybody considered what the effects of the bug killed trees will have on ungulate populations and behaviour? I've never looked into it, but I imgaine there are some theories out there that potentially drastic effects may occur. Hunters (and regulations) may have to adapt to hunt the hard hit areas as the animals may have moved to greener pastures (literally)? Just food for thought....
The Hermit
03-04-2009, 12:10 PM
... they loose their brains completely and don't eat and barely sleep for a month as they look for pussy. They are no different than teenagers in the human race.
LOL one day I might grow up... 57 and still a teenager at heart! :smile:
Gateholio
03-04-2009, 12:58 PM
This has been a real interesting thread..I've hunted Reg 5 a bit but don't have near the knowledge of what is posted on this thread. Lots of good information that doesn't make sense until -as mentioned- you put the pieces together:o
cariboobill
03-04-2009, 06:54 PM
Interesting to hear all the talk about the region I live and hunt most every day, Region 5. I have not notices any drop in Buck numbers and I do agree there are lots of does. But if the MOE biologists think the buck numbers are really down, then they will get local support. But the folks I know who live and hunt here will have a problem if they close it down early. Last year we thought the same thing would happen, but they changed their minds.
I will have to call Williams Lake and ask what is up with this to get the skinny from the biologists. Until then, lets hope the season is not closed early, although the deer during the heat of the rut have poor meat quality, so it should only effect folks who like to get the big ones. Around here a 180 class is big.
regards
Cariboo Bill:frown:
Well All I can tell you Fellas Is that Unless you Live here(Not Lived here a while ago, Hunted here for a week or two) But live here and see the actual amount of Game your self its hard to make a proper assessment. In the Archery shop Here all last year Most of the Fellas, And Ladies were saying they had a hard time finding Good Class Bucks. There lots of spikers, and Does , But not the Bigger Bucks.Still only alow 1 Buck, but I would Have Rather seen a 2 week doe season During the first part of the season .You hear People say Oh I just want a Meat Buck first , Then Ill go for the Big one. Why Not a Doe Instead? The Meat is Just as Good if not Better, That way The Doe Buck Ratio would Be kept up. It would Give some of them spikers a chance to Mature to Breed. Also Last year there was still some Rutting going on till the last part of Nov, like along the Fraser Benches where the Weather Patterns Are Warmer and doesn't get to the Cooler weather till a little later in the Fall
You can sit down in any coffee shop in any small town in the southern interior and talk hunting and you will find the same stories about the 2008 season. I know a ton of Clearwater residents who were skunked last year. Most kill their meat bucks the first week of Oct every year. Last year, guess what, they couldn't find a buck. I have heard the same stories from Barriere, Kamloops, Salmon Arm, Chase, Valemount, McBride, 100 Mile, Williams Lake, you name the town and you will hear how the bucks have all disappeared. WTF? Where did they go? Last year on HBC many many hunters bitchin' about how they were seeing no critters. Many jumped on the bandwagon that it must be either the wolves or the natives. What a crock o'shit. The bucks are still out there. I'm already seeing them. Heck, I live at the base of some very nice winter range. All winter I've been seeing nothing but does and fawns and the odd little buck. Now, suddenly the last 2 weeks, lots of bucks with holes in their heads. Hmmm, where did they come from? They certainly weren't there during hunting season and they haven't been there all winter.
This past weekend I picked up the new Eastman's Hunting Journal from the magazine rack. There is a timely article in there written by a friend of mine, Mike Duplan. The article is called Mule Deer Reality Check. It has some good applications to this current thread. If you want a good read, pick it up. It is also their annual mule deer issue, so there is some good horn porn within the pages as well.
Islandeer
03-04-2009, 09:59 PM
Thoughtful posts from the usual members, we have hunted the Gang alot over the seasons,agreed, still a pile of deer in there, agreed, the big bucks take more time,planning and effort to get. Come on guys you have yo be able to hit the curve once in awhile. Ecosystems are dynamic, lack of winter climate pressure changes behaviour,hunting pressure changes behaviour, and here is something else to ponder ; doe/buck ratios in areas are most always in the 12 to 20 per 100 scale.
Don't expect a different result if you keep hunting the same places the same way ....
GoatGuy
03-05-2009, 05:38 PM
You can sit down in any coffee shop in any small town in the southern interior and talk hunting and you will find the same stories about the 2008 season. I know a ton of Clearwater residents who were skunked last year. Most kill their meat bucks the first week of Oct every year. Last year, guess what, they couldn't find a buck. I have heard the same stories from Barriere, Kamloops, Salmon Arm, Chase, Valemount, McBride, 100 Mile, Williams Lake, you name the town and you will hear how the bucks have all disappeared. WTF? Where did they go? Last year on HBC many many hunters bitchin' about how they were seeing no critters. Many jumped on the bandwagon that it must be either the wolves or the natives. What a crock o'shit. The bucks are still out there. I'm already seeing them. Heck, I live at the base of some very nice winter range. All winter I've been seeing nothing but does and fawns and the odd little buck. Now, suddenly the last 2 weeks, lots of bucks with holes in their heads. Hmmm, where did they come from? They certainly weren't there during hunting season and they haven't been there all winter.
This seems to happen every single year, same people, same emails, same conversations.
No deer left
Hunters everywhere
No big bucks left
Not enough bucks left for bow season
Shot too many does last year
No grouse left
Ought to close the season
Don't believe the counts
You should have seen it when I was a kid
And on,
and on,
and on
Story of a hunter.
If we worried about what wildlife needs instead of what 'we need' life would be much simpler and probably even more fun.
aggiehunter
03-05-2009, 08:31 PM
I know how ya feel, we get guys saying they got too many Mule Deer eating their shrubs and flowers in Mu 8 -way up there so they wanna extend the season way late in 8-way down there. What's up with that. Can't please everyone. Then other guys say huntings gonna die if we cant' kill critters all year. What a crazy world.
betteroffishing
03-05-2009, 09:52 PM
2 years ago i saw the 2 largest bucks iv ever seen on the same day in reg 5 , last year spent 3 days up in same area and saw nothing but a horney cow moose and a small doe , like my dad taught me " they are where you find em"
DeerWhisperer
03-05-2009, 09:53 PM
Thats horse cock
Manglinmike
03-05-2009, 10:15 PM
imo the boys talkin about the wheather are bang on ,I have a cabin in regon 8 and we just got smoked by the sun, and the feed was dry very early in the seaon. You could glass the alpine and slashes until your eyes fell out and still no deer,however, the timber in our area is opened right up from the pine bettle and there is tons of good moist feed and cover ,no need to go out in the open to feed.
GoatGuy
03-06-2009, 12:13 AM
I know how ya feel, we get guys saying they got too many Mule Deer eating their shrubs and flowers in Mu 8 -way up there so they wanna extend the season way late in 8-way down there. What's up with that. Can't please everyone. Then other guys say huntings gonna die if we cant' kill critters all year. What a crazy world.
If people need to bring the deer population down where you live then shoot some does. There's no GOS on mule does other than 7B so I don't understand what your saying by extending the season 'way late'?
I must be struggling with a language barrier here. Maybe I'll have a few beers and come back to this. Looks like drunk talk to me.
Gateholio
03-06-2009, 12:59 AM
You can sit down in any coffee shop in any small town in the southern interior and talk hunting and you will find the same stories about the 2008 season. I know a ton of Clearwater residents who were skunked last year. Most kill their meat bucks the first week of Oct every year. Last year, guess what, they couldn't find a buck. I have heard the same stories from Barriere, Kamloops, Salmon Arm, Chase, Valemount, McBride, 100 Mile, Williams Lake, you name the town and you will hear how the bucks have all disappeared. WTF? Where did they go? Last year on HBC many many hunters bitchin' about how they were seeing no critters. Many jumped on the bandwagon that it must be either the wolves or the natives. What a crock o'shit. The bucks are still out there. I'm already seeing them. Heck, I live at the base of some very nice winter range. All winter I've been seeing nothing but does and fawns and the odd little buck. Now, suddenly the last 2 weeks, lots of bucks with holes in their heads. Hmmm, where did they come from? They certainly weren't there during hunting season and they haven't been there all winter.
You can add Region 2 where I live (Pemberton) to that list.
It was easy to shoot a small buck in the rut, but hard to find a big guy, Snow conditons just didn't allow it to be easy..... WE DO have a wolf problem around here, but that is NOT the only reason the big bucks didn't get found...
We have so many wolves now it's crazy, but it's only one piece of the puzzle!:wink:
CanuckShooter
03-06-2009, 08:09 AM
If people need to bring the deer population down where you live then shoot some does. There's no GOS on mule does other than 7B so I don't understand what your saying by extending the season 'way late'?
I must be struggling with a language barrier here. Maybe I'll have a few beers and come back to this. Looks like drunk talk to me.
You'd better re-read last years regs....7a had a doe GOS in 2008...private property or within 2000m.
GoatGuy
03-06-2009, 09:08 AM
You'd better re-read last years regs....7a had a doe GOS in 2008...private property or within 2000m.
Which will be canceled because there weren't any deer shot because no access.
Sorry, I should have been more clear.
one-shot-wonder
03-06-2009, 09:33 AM
If people need to bring the deer population down where you live then shoot some does. There's no GOS on mule does other than 7B so I don't understand what your saying by extending the season 'way late'?
I must be struggling with a language barrier here. Maybe I'll have a few beers and come back to this. Looks like drunk talk to me.
Your not the only one needing a inebriation translation........Aggie what are you trying to say? Care to elaborate?
horshur
03-06-2009, 10:09 AM
Which will be canceled because there weren't any deer shot because no access.
Sorry, I should have been more clear.
Jessie I find that pretty hard to believe...i suspect you are not speaking in the absolute. Had to be some does shot.
GoatGuy
03-06-2009, 10:54 AM
Jessie I find that pretty hard to believe...i suspect you are not speaking in the absolute. Had to be some does shot.
1,2,3,4,5? Not enough to warrant a season.
Smokepole
03-06-2009, 12:29 PM
1,2,3,4,5? Not enough to warrant a season.
What would be the point in closing the season? It's still an opportunity for someone to go hunting. How much effort does it take to write a line or two in the regs keeping it open.
GoatGuy
03-06-2009, 12:41 PM
What would be the point in closing the season? It's still an opportunity for someone to go hunting. How much effort does it take to write a line or two in the regs keeping it open.
Very little land, very little access.
No sense in having a season unless people (as in the public) get to go hunt. ;)
If we're going to get into the whole private property and access to wildlife program we should probably start a new thread. It'll be a beauty.
Smokepole
03-06-2009, 01:21 PM
Very little land, very little access.
No sense in having a season unless people (as in the public) get to go hunt. ;)
If we're going to get into the whole private property and access to wildlife program we should probably start a new thread. It'll be a beauty.
Isn't a little access better than none?
I guess my real question is what does it cost the public to leave it open? Is there a limit on the number of seasons, and we can exchange this season for a better one? Even if only two people use it isn't that better than none?;-)
Very true. I believe access to hunting land will probably be our biggest hurdle in the years to come. Doesn't that make every opportunity even more valuable?
GoatGuy
03-06-2009, 03:50 PM
Isn't a little access better than none?
I guess my real question is what does it cost the public to leave it open? Is there a limit on the number of seasons, and we can exchange this season for a better one? Even if only two people use it isn't that better than none?;-)
Very true. I believe access to hunting land will probably be our biggest hurdle in the years to come. Doesn't that make every opportunity even more valuable?
Sure does as long as the public gets to access it.
BCrams
03-06-2009, 04:00 PM
The key word GG mentions is 'public'.
You can add Region 2 where I live (Pemberton) to that list.
It was easy to shoot a small buck in the rut, but hard to find a big guy, Snow conditons just didn't allow it to be easy..... WE DO have a wolf problem around here, but that is NOT the only reason the big bucks didn't get found...
We have so many wolves now it's crazy, but it's only one piece of the puzzle!:wink:
Gate,
Looks like you are putting the pieces together. Yes wolves are a piece of the puzzle. They have been increasing pretty much every where. While I don't believe they've gone and ate all the deer like some believe, they certainly have been putting the pressure on them. I've had many a hunt over the years shut off by the pressence of wolves. When they are hunting deer, the deer hit the thick timber to hide. Wolves find killing easier in the open. The deer know that. They use the timber for their advantage. This doesn't bode well for the other hunters out there that expect the deer to be out in the wide open sage rutting. Again, another piece of the puzzle as to why deer have been hard to find the last 2 years.
Given the hunting conditions of the late 2 seasons, it has been obvious that human hunters haven't been highly successful. This should mean that there have been more than usual post season buck survival should it not? Yes, first 2 years of the any buck Nov season saw more harvested due to greater amount of hunters in the area and good snow conditions. But a buck fawn born the spring of 04 would now be 5 wouldn't he? And a buck fawn born the spring of 05 would now be 4 right? That's the mature catagory that they think they are missing is it not? 06 was a marginal harvest year and 07 and 08 were very very poor harvest years. So should there not be a bunch of 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 year old bucks kicking around this year???
Gate,
Looks like you are putting the pieces together. Yes wolves are a piece of the puzzle. They have been increasing pretty much every where. While I don't believe they've gone and ate all the deer like some believe, they certainly have been putting the pressure on them. I've had many a hunt over the years shut off by the pressence of wolves. When they are hunting deer, the deer hit the thick timber to hide. Wolves find killing easier in the open. The deer know that. They use the timber for their advantage. This doesn't bode well for the other hunters out there that expect the deer to be out in the wide open sage rutting. Again, another piece of the puzzle as to why deer have been hard to find the last 2 years.
Given the hunting conditions of the late 2 seasons, it has been obvious that human hunters haven't been highly successful. This should mean that there have been more than usual post season buck survival should it not? Yes, first 2 years of the any buck Nov season saw more harvested due to greater amount of hunters in the area and good snow conditions. But a buck fawn born the spring of 04 would now be 5 wouldn't he? And a buck fawn born the spring of 05 would now be 4 right? That's the mature catagory that they think they are missing is it not? 06 was a marginal harvest year and 07 and 08 were very very poor harvest years. So should there not be a bunch of 4 1/2 and 5 1/2 year old bucks kicking around this year???
The last two winters have been brutal for deer.....one more piece to the puzzle.
Really??? And you know this how? Has there been a large winter kill that only PGK knows about? Is he the one that has been scoopin up all the deadheads so no one else can find them? Tell us your wisdom Kris, inquiring minds want to know.
Really??? And you know this how? Has there been a large winter kill that only PGK knows about? Is he the one that has been scoopin up all the deadheads so no one else can find them? Tell us your wisdom Kris, inquiring minds want to know.
Common dana, lay off the sauce before you post. I'm not picking fights with you. This stuff's common sense. 2007 and 2008 were hard winters. This year has been bad up here too. More snow, less winter range, you figure it out.
PGK,
I'm a snowpillow data junky. Every year I read the snowpillow commentary every month all winter long. The middle Fraser and Chilcotin have not been above normal like you say. Winter is winter. Deer live with it. A hard winter, we've not seen since the mid 90's. And even in the mid 90's the Region 5 herds didn't get pounded as hard as the Koots and the OK. Do you have some data to show that the last 2 winters have seen a large winterkill in the Fraser basin?
PGK,
I'm a snowpillow data junky. Every year I read the snowpillow commentary every month all winter long. The middle Fraser and Chilcotin have not been above normal like you say. Winter is winter. Deer live with it. A hard winter, we've not seen since the mid 90's. And even in the mid 90's the Region 5 herds didn't get pounded as hard as the Koots and the OK. Do you have some data to show that the last 2 winters have seen a large winterkill in the Fraser basin?
Well, maybe the cariboo is getting it easy then. Quote me some numbers for 7A, because I've heard the snowpack ballparked around 140% and 120% of normal in 08 and 09 respectively. Of course I don't have anything that suggest an unusual amount of dieoff over the last few years. If I did, so would you and everyone else on the forum that likes to concern themselves with the brick wall that is wildlife management.
What it boils down to in my eyes re: snow, is a few very soft winters in the early 2000s and a couple recent much harder ones....nothing to get bent out of shape over
Gateholio
03-06-2009, 11:03 PM
Common dana, lay off the sauce before you post.
And you wonder why your credibility is in question..:D
PGK,
I'm sure that somewhere on the snowpillow commentary website you might find the historical data you are looking for. What you should realize is the bulk of the snowpack every year is in the high elevations, not in the low elevation mule deer winter range. So when you are thinking of last year's big PG melt, most of that came from the high country.
I can assure you, the snow loads on the winter range in the Middle Fraser have been lower than normal the last few years. Winter mortality is no more than a normal winter. Any year, fawns can struggle. That is just normal life as a mule deer in BC. There has not been any major winter kill within the Middle Fraser as you eluded to. Pullin things like that out of your ass only makes you look like an ass. ;)
Well, dana, to be fair, you haven't been wandering around in the bush up here like I have. We have between four and six feet of snow on the ground right now, just about everywhere. The snow behind my house where most of the MD winter around here is now down to around 2 feet because of the warm weather this week.....and the MD have been using the same packed down trail into my yard since December. To me, that screams ''we don't want to walk in the deep snow, so we packed this trail!'' So far, everybody looks healthy (even the doe with triplets!), and one buck is still packing. But hey, they've been living pretty good on ornamental cedars, so who knows right :lol:
Hijack off.
PGK,
I'm sure that somewhere on the snowpillow commentary website you might find the historical data you are looking for. What you should realize is the bulk of the snowpack every year is in the high elevations, not in the low elevation mule deer winter range. So when you are thinking of last year's big PG melt, most of that came from the high country.
I can assure you, the snow loads on the winter range in the Middle Fraser have been lower than normal the last few years. Winter mortality is no more than a normal winter. Any year, fawns can struggle. That is just normal life as a mule deer in BC. There has not been any major winter kill within the Middle Fraser as you eluded to. Pullin things like that out of your ass only makes you look like an ass. ;)
Dirty
03-06-2009, 11:54 PM
Common dana, lay off the sauce before you post. I'm not picking fights with you. This stuff's common sense. 2007 and 2008 were hard winters. This year has been bad up here too. More snow, less winter range, you figure it out.
Kris, you do have a penchant for making comments that have no scientific merit. Sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't. In this case you make mere assumptions that are not proven, as you do in a lot of cases! You should learn that just because things seem one way (ie hard winters) the affects you would expect are not always the case.
Timbow
03-07-2009, 07:02 AM
Well, dana, to be fair, you haven't been wandering around in the bush up here like I have. We have between four and six feet of snow on the ground right now, just about everywhere. The snow behind my house where most of the MD winter around here is now down to around 2 feet because of the warm weather this week.....and the MD have been using the same packed down trail into my yard since December. To me, that screams ''we don't want to walk in the deep snow, so we packed this trail!'' So far, everybody looks healthy (even the doe with triplets!), and one buck is still packing. But hey, they've been living pretty good on ornamental cedars, so who knows right :lol:
Hijack off.
I know the snow levels along the fraser in 7-08 to 7-10 is not critical to the mule deer or whitetail this year and there is no winter kill, not this year or the previous year. I have been tromping the woods in these areas and I can tell you that the deer hasn't even entered their identified critical winter grounds but rather the next level up. Industry is not allowed to harvest in the critical mule deer winter range (unless there is heavy fir beetle infestation) and in the next level identified as non critical winter range, industry has to retain Douglas-fir.
PGK,
I thought this thread was about Region 5, not Region 7A. Last time I checked 7A is considered to be Northern BC not Southern BC. Far as I know, it isn't part of the Southern Mule Deer Strategy either. ;)
But since you brought up PG, my boss was up there all week. Talked to him yesterday and asked him how much snow was up there. He said about the same as here. Doesn't sound like you have much to be alarmed about eh? Just talking for the sake of talking again with nothing to back up your comments. You do realize, if you don't know anything about the subject, you can just sit back and read. You don't need to inject BS in every subject.
BCrams
03-07-2009, 10:39 AM
Well, dana, to be fair, you haven't been wandering around in the bush up here like I have. We have between four and six feet of snow on the ground right now, just about everywhere. The snow behind my house where most of the MD winter around here is now down to around 2 feet because of the warm weather this week.....and the MD have been using the same packed down trail into my yard since December. To me, that screams ''we don't want to walk in the deep snow, so we packed this trail!'' So far, everybody looks healthy (even the doe with triplets!), and one buck is still packing. But hey, they've been living pretty good on ornamental cedars, so who knows right :lol:
Hijack off.
6 ft on the ground in PG?? Come on..... I know we got a lot of snow this year but if you mosey around - the snow where most of the deer are hanging out is only 1-2 feet and in one area, bare ground patches up to a foot of snow on the south slopes. If you said snow was 3-4 feet on the ground around here right now, more people might believe you.
The entire Blackwater / Fraser mule deer winter range had no more than knee deep snow all winter long the last couple years. Hardly anything to worry about for 7A mule deer.
oldtimer
03-07-2009, 11:17 AM
Well I definitely would not call this a tough winter and I have been here for a few. What I will say is the population of predators ( wolves and cougars ) is definitely as high as anyone can remember. Mike
PGK,
You do realize, if you don't know anything about the subject, you can just sit back and read. You don't need to inject BS in every subject.
LMAO!
My vote for HBC quote of the year! Applies to so many threads! :lol:
jessbennett
03-07-2009, 12:28 PM
there is NOT 6 feet of snow in pg......... that i know for a fact. :wink:
Timbow
03-07-2009, 12:46 PM
PGK,
I thought this thread was about Region 5, not Region 7A. Last time I checked 7A is considered to be Northern BC not Southern BC. Far as I know, it isn't part of the Southern Mule Deer Strategy either. ;)
But since you brought up PG, my boss was up there all week. Talked to him yesterday and asked him how much snow was up there. He said about the same as here. Doesn't sound like you have much to be alarmed about eh? Just talking for the sake of talking again with nothing to back up your comments. You do realize, if you don't know anything about the subject, you can just sit back and read. You don't need to inject BS in every subject.
No, 7A is not part of the southern Mule Deer Strategy but the Mule deer winter range has been identified for the Fraser river basin (not sure identified how far up stream - McBride?) and licenses follow local MOE guidelines and guidelines outined by developement plans. Does help to know when you work for the locals. ;)
Fisher-Dude
03-07-2009, 06:26 PM
No, 7A is not part of the southern Mule Deer Strategy but the Mule deer winter range has been identified for the Fraser river basin (not sure identified how far up stream - McBride?) and licenses follow local MOE guidelines and guidelines outined by developement plans. Does help to know when you work for the locals. ;)
McBride? Nothing there but hybrids, fields full of them according to PGK.
Kris, how are the hybrids doing in this year's snowpack? Do they winter differently than the MD or WT?
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