View Full Version : Book Ram poached in kicking horse canyon near Golden???
rutting bull
02-23-2009, 04:44 PM
I've been trying to get the story behind this, and as far as I have heard there is deffinatley some truth to it but I hate to make my own assumptions without actually knowing all the facts! Apparently somebody poached one of the biggest rams thats been hangin around the kicking horse canyon area back in the early part of the season and tried to claim that he had taken it legally in the GOS of 4-35 somewheres? Reason I bring it up now is that I recently just heard that the culprit finally confessed to his stupidity after being investigated? If any body has actual facts, I would love to hear how he was caught and I will save my name calling and opinion till then!
Stone Sheep Steve
02-23-2009, 04:51 PM
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Large_Kicking_Horse_Canyon_ram_poached_Oct_08.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=12985&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent)
You mean this one??
I'll let 6616 or someone else give more details.
SSS
rutting bull
02-23-2009, 05:01 PM
Appologies if there has been a previous thread but obviously there is some truth about it! Thats too bad!
All the more reason to have a couple LEH's a year. Reduce the temptation by opportunistic poachers!!!!
springpin
02-23-2009, 05:28 PM
First time I have heard of this...
Krico
02-23-2009, 05:30 PM
Nice photoshop
MOWITCH SLAYER
02-23-2009, 05:36 PM
Sorry Mark but that's a load of crap ! A poacher is nothing but a thief and he don't care about LEH , hunting , hunters, wildlife or nothing. They are stealing from all of us for a fast buck. It is a sad day when all trophy's have to be harvested so the poachers don't get them.
boxhitch
02-23-2009, 05:37 PM
All the more reason to have a couple LEH's a year. Reduce the temptation by opportunistic poachers!!!!Thieves are being corrupted by the fact the temptation is in front of them ?? So take away all temptations ? WTF !
Nice photoshop
what part of what pic you figure is photoshopped??
I do think the live rams right horn looks way more broomed than the dead ones????? Anyone else see this??
ibehuntin
02-23-2009, 05:41 PM
It is true and that ram scored right around 192.
boxhitch
02-23-2009, 05:41 PM
Anyone else see this??
No, your delusion......:)
Sorry Mark but that's a load of crap ! A poacher is nothing but a thief and he don't care about LEH , hunting , hunters, wildlife or nothing. They are stealing from all of us for a fast buck. It is a sad day when all trophy's have to be harvested so the poachers don't get them.
Thieves are being corrupted by the fact the temptation is in front of them ?? So take away all temptations ? WTF !
Ok guys well do it your way, let them get killed by cars and poached, thats way better, dont know what I was thinking.
Geez more hunter opportunity, what was I thinking???
Thieves are being corrupted by the fact the temptation is in front of them ?? So take away all temptations ? WTF !
Just a little fact of life here guys, you put a big stack of cash on your front lawn, someones gonna steal it, dont believe me, try it!
Newsflash guys, laws dont stop criminals! But reducing temptation does help!
No, your delusion......:)
Actually on closer inspection, I dont even think its the same ram!
rutting bull
02-23-2009, 05:57 PM
I will look through some old pics and see if I have one that matches. I have a bunch of different rams to sort through. So from what I gather it was taken by a poacher :mad:!!!!! Any details???
MOWITCH SLAYER
02-23-2009, 06:10 PM
Mark. As hunters we need to stand together and pretect our wild herds. The trophies are vital to the blood lines. to shot them off is like burning your money so no one can steal it!
ElkMasterC
02-23-2009, 06:17 PM
Actually on closer inspection, I dont even think its the same ram!
I think it's the same, but at diff ages.
I assumed the first pic was post-mortem. Is it possible it's a live pic?
The reason I ask is there are the same marks on the horns, but they've moved 12-18 months along the line.
Anyone else see that?
Mark. As hunters we need to stand together and pretect our wild herds. The trophies are vital to the blood lines. to shot them off is like burning your money so no one can steal it!
Sorry dude, what your saying makes no sense to me, You suggesting we shut down all hunting everywhere, to protect these trophy bloodlines your talking about???
We hunt sheep elsewhere, so why not there, why is that spot "special" ?? And what good are they if we cant harvest them???
I think it's the same, but at diff ages.
I assumed the first pic was post-mortem. Is it possible it's a live pic?
The reason I ask is there are the same marks on the horns, but they've moved 12-18 months along the line.
Anyone else see that?
The rams left horn is at the exact same angle in both pics, but the right horn is way different angle, how do you explain that??? Not to mention the right horn tip is way different!
So is this a true story???
Stone Sheep Steve
02-23-2009, 06:47 PM
Looks like the same ram to me.
Pics taken last winter vs this past fall??? You can see a couple of nicks on both horns that are dead give-aways.
Mark.....depends on where the sheep spend their September/October.
Do they leave this area?? Salmo sheep seem to leave their winter feeding grounds....at least from the pics of harvested rams that I've seen.
Maybe these sheep stay tight to their winter range?
I'm sure Andy can fill us in with details.
SSS
brianscott
02-23-2009, 06:47 PM
Not trying to hijack but the Cadomin mines Pick -up ram from Alberta was scored and the result is 206 3/8, tied for #4 in the book
Also 2 people from Alberta are up on Charges for shooting Rams and ewes illegally.
The Rams heads were removed that is all, and im not sure about the ewes
Accused face trial in Pincher Creek Alberta on the 24 of Febuary.
Accused are William(Bill) Morton, (an APOS Guide) and Gifford Fox
These names are not 100% sure but both have confirmed appearance dates at Pincher Creek on wildlife related charges.
They will be made public soon
MOWITCH SLAYER
02-23-2009, 06:49 PM
Mark where did you read that. We are talking about poachers taking game in a closed area. A area you want to hunt. I never said anything about closing any season. Allmost makes me wonder who's side your on here!
ibehuntin
02-23-2009, 06:50 PM
Ok, I'll tell you what I know and 6616 can correct me later. From what I've been told. The sheep was killed by a guy from the Okanagan I belive. When he took it in for insp. some questions arose about the legality of the kill, mostly location. Anyway when the guy was asked to take and show the kill site and how he acessed the area he caved and confessed to killing it in a closed area (kicking horse canyon). Don't know what or if charges have been laid.
Looks like the same ram to me.
Pics taken last winter vs this past fall??? You can see a couple of nicks on both horns that are dead give-aways.
Mark.....depends on where the sheep spend their September/October.
Do they leave this area?? Salmo sheep seem to leave their winter feeding grounds....at least from the pics of harvested rams that I've seen.
Maybe these sheep stay tight to there winter range?
I'm sure Andy can fill us in with details.
SSS
Maybe you were typing wen I wrote this, how do you explain???
The rams left horn is at the exact same angle in both pics, but the right horn is way different angle, how do you explain that??? Not to mention the right horn tip is way different!
ElkMasterC
02-23-2009, 06:53 PM
The head is at a diff angle.
Anyway, who cares?
(Except that I'm right and you're wrong, who cares?)
;-)
Mark where did you read that. We are talking about poachers taking game in a closed area. A area you want to hunt. I never said anything about closing any season. Allmost makes me wonder who's side your on here!
I read it in your post!
I know it was poached, and as long as theres book rams sleeping on the side of the highway, this type of thing is always gonna happen!
Yes Im suggesting we hunt there, an LEH or 2 a year, if its sustainable, why not harvest the rams rather than have them poached or roadkilled????
You never said anything about closing a season, but your saying we have to protect these trophy bloodlines.....for what??? Your basically slamming my idea of an LEH hunt!
This makes me wonder what side YOUR on!!!!!!
Krico
02-23-2009, 06:59 PM
Look at the black line along the bottom of the sheeps right horn (on the left side of the pic).
Someone has played with that pic. It just does not look right. Almost like a close up of the ram's head was cut out and placed on a pic of another ram.
Looks like the same ram, the "live" pic is just "off."
I've been wrong before, but...
What does the pic have to do with this story???? Im lost........
Looks like the same ram to me.
Pics taken last winter vs this past fall??? You can see a couple of nicks on both horns that are dead give-aways.
Mark.....depends on where the sheep spend their September/October.
Do they leave this area?? Salmo sheep seem to leave their winter feeding grounds....at least from the pics of harvested rams that I've seen.
Maybe these sheep stay tight to there winter range?
I'm sure Andy can fill us in with details.
SSS
It's confirmed as the same ram, no photoshop except to patch the two photos into one, there are lots of pictures, there's no question. The live photo was taken mid-winter 2007, and the dead picture was taken in October 2008 so there will be one more years growth on the dead picture.
The rams leave the area during mid-summer but often can be seen in other parts of the Canyon, they're only at the feeding area during winter.
I don't think the perpetrator has been to court yet so I probably shouldn't say too much, except this story is definitly true.
Ruttinbull, why don't you guys bring your moose horns out to get them scored and I'll tell you the whole story.
Look at the black line along the bottom of the sheeps right horn (on the left side of the pic).
Someone has played with that pic. It just does not look right. Almost like a close up of the ram's head was cut out and placed on a pic of another ram.
Looks like the same ram, the "live" pic is just "off."
I've been wrong before, but...
I agree totally now, I just didnt see it at first like some others here still dont!
What does the pic have to do with this story???? Im lost........
It doesnt, we dont have much of a story yet so were just ripping on the pics!
Krico
02-23-2009, 07:08 PM
What does the pic have to do with this story???? Im lost........
Well for starters it's apparently the ram which was poached.
The pics were posted, and became part of the discussion.
It's confirmed as the same ram, no photoshop except to patch the two photos into one, there are lots of pictures, there's no question. The live photo was taken mid-winter 2007, and the dead picture was taken in October 2008 so there will be one more years growth on the dead picture.
The rams leave the during mid-summer but often can be seen in other areas of the Canyon, they're only at the feeding area during winter.
I don't think the perpetrator has been to court yet so I probably shouldn't say too much more, except the story is definitly true.
Ruttinbull, why don't you guys bring your moose horns out to get them scored and I'll tell you the whole story.
6616, I respect your statement here, because im sure your in the know on this topic, but how do you explain this.....
"The rams left horn is at the EXACT same angle in both pics, but the right horn is WAY different angle, how do you explain that??? Not to mention the right horn tip is way different!"
BlacktailStalker
02-23-2009, 07:13 PM
Nice ram, too bad somebody legit didnt get to take it.
I dont think the two pics are of the same horns... at all.
twanger
02-23-2009, 07:13 PM
What does the pic have to do with this story???? Im lost........
I don't see any pictures.:frown:
Look at the black line along the bottom of the sheeps right horn (on the left side of the pic).
Someone has played with that pic. It just does not look right. Almost like a close up of the ram's head was cut out and placed on a pic of another ram.
Looks like the same ram, the "live" pic is just "off."
I've been wrong before, but...
I took the live pic, I assure you guys it's not been messed with, you can see the original shot in my gallery.
Well for starters it's apparently the ram which was poached.
The pics were posted, and became part of the discussion.
Thats what i thought BUT....... how would they have a pic of the ram in the back of the truck if he turned himself in???? thats the part i dont get.....
I took the live pic, I assure you guys it's not been messed with, you can see the original shot in my gallery.
I dont think anyones saying that the pic of the live ram is a photoshop job.... Its that the bottom pic doesnt look right at all. The left horn in both pics looks identical, angle and everything. The sheeps right horn looks way different.
Since you didnt explain, I take it, you cant for some reason????
brianscott
02-23-2009, 08:02 PM
Thought that Ram looked familliar.
This pic was taken by a friend of mine about a year ago
http://i486.photobucket.com/albums/rr229/brianscott1986/n511882791_728080_5602.jpg
Brambles
02-23-2009, 08:04 PM
I have pictures of that Ram from July 2006, he's a dandy.
bruin
02-23-2009, 08:06 PM
Looks like the same ram to me Mark, notice the placement of annuli and some of the chips on the top of each horn. (I'd edit a pic but I'm way too lazy)
boxhitch
02-23-2009, 08:23 PM
No surprise the broomed tip is different between pictures that are ~ 10 months apart.
And who is to say the photos are taken at exactly the same angle and distance ?
Although you may be correct, as it is on the Interweb, so must be false. Happens all the tine.
Timbow
02-23-2009, 08:28 PM
Reading the previous posts on how the situation could have been avoided by hunting the animal (or other trophy animals) through LEH shows a lack for conservation. Seems the choices were either hunting them, let the poachers get them or cars to run them over. I think as hunters we have to realize that there are other people (non-hunters) and hunters who enjoy a animal of this trophy stature and to see in its living form . Not to mention to keep a gene pool alive so our future hunters have something to drool over.
Just a thought....
Stone Sheep Steve
02-23-2009, 08:31 PM
Reading the previous posts on how the situation could have been avoided by hunting the animal (or other trophy animals) through LEH shows a lack for conservation. Seems the choices were either hunting them, let the poachers get them or cars to run them over. I think as hunters we have to realize that there are other people (non-hunters) and hunters who enjoy a animal of this trophy stature and to see in its living form . Not to mention to keep a gene pool alive so our future hunters have something to drool over.
Just a thought....
Another capture just took place so those great genes are spread around the Kootenays once again.
SSS
whitetailsheds
02-23-2009, 08:49 PM
Looks like the same ram to me Mark, notice the placement of annuli and some of the chips on the top of each horn. (I'd edit a pic but I'm way too lazy)
x2 There are several similarities looking closely. Rams, where is your fancy photoshopping skills?
6616, I respect your statement here, because im sure your in the know on this topic, but how do you explain this.....
"The rams left horn is at the EXACT same angle in both pics, but the right horn is WAY different angle, how do you explain that??? Not to mention the right horn tip is way different!"
The two pics are just sitting at different angles. The proof is not in the geomerty but rather inthe chips, gouges, location of annulli, etc. I can assure you it's the same ram and the pictures are untouched.
Thats what i thought BUT....... how would they have a pic of the ram in the back of the truck if he turned himself in???? thats the part i dont get.....
The ram was immediatelly consfiscated, the pic is taken in the back of a CO Service truck. The perp didn't turn himself in, but he confessed a couple of weeks later when faced withthe evidence.
Brambles
02-23-2009, 11:24 PM
The ram was immediatelly consfiscated, the pic is taken in the back of a CO Service truck. The perp didn't turn himself in, but he confessed a couple of weeks later when faced withthe evidence.
Am I missing a picture or something Andy, I only see one picture on page 4?
I'll post up a pic I have of him. The face on that ram is pretty unmistakeable.
Brambles
02-23-2009, 11:30 PM
I guess the ram I have pictures of is a different ram, this one is Long on the wrong side
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/230.jpg
SSS posted 2 pics, one live and one of the head, skinned but not fleshed in the back of a pickup. I guess he removed them? Honker ram in your pic, looks like an ooold bastid
ElkMasterC
02-23-2009, 11:43 PM
I guess the ram I have pictures of is a different ram, this one is Long on the wrong side
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/230.jpg
Wow, like to see him in the rut all fattened up. Nice Ramses.
SSS posted 2 pics, one live and one of the head, skinned but not fleshed in the back of a pickup. I guess he removed them? Honker ram in your pic, looks like an ooold bastid
SSS linked to a photo in my gallery, when I saw it on the web I realized I had made a mistake because the perp has not went to court yet and the photo might be evidence, so I deleted it from my gallery, sorry guys.
When the court date is over I will repost the picture and tell the complete story, but right now I don't want to jeopardize the case.
I guess the ram I have pictures of is a different ram, this one is Long on the wrong side
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/230.jpg
Depends when and where you took the picture Brambles, if you too it in golden around 2004, 2005 it's likely the same ram. Here's a shot of him in 2002, guess that makes him pretty old in 2008 eh?
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/2002.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13008&size=big&cat=500)
If your photo was taken a few years earlier then that, say 1999 or 2000, it could be this ram when he was a young fella about 9 years old. He died (disappeared) in 2003 at 13 years of age.. When this guy went from a half curl to nearly a full curl in one summer I knew he was going to be something special. One of the most famous sheep guides in the East Kootenay estimated his score at 198 to 200 shortly before he died.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/The_ram.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=9999&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=3468)
Brambles
02-24-2009, 08:52 AM
My picture was taken in July 2006, my impression was he is an oldtimer
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/224.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/229.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/227.jpg
Can anyone age him on this photo?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/231-1.jpg
Bowtime
02-24-2009, 10:28 AM
I bet his last few years are just stacked near the base!!
tufferthandug
02-24-2009, 11:37 AM
Brambs, better hope your PM box has lots of room after posting pictures like that, LOL. Downtown Ram or not... They still have four legs to get them into a legal area...
What a friggin Ram!
My picture was taken in July 2006, my impression was he is an oldtimer
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/Brambles77/231-1.jpg
He is definitely the same ram that was poached last October Brambles. Here's a scan comparison with another of my photos. He did have a much longer right horn in those years. He is old as you thought, he was probably 10 when you took your photos in 2006. Also he was the only ram of that size in the herd during that period so there's no doubt it's the same ram. I think aging these rams of that age would require having the horn in your hands and even then could be quite difficult.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Poached_Ram.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13011&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent)
Brambles
02-24-2009, 02:07 PM
I agree, sure looks like the same ram to me too, those two picture comparisons are hard to argue with, damn near the same pose and everything.
That makes me sad, he was a trusting ol trooper. I got quite close, I probably could have gotten closer but I didn't want to make him feel uncomfortable.
There was one other legal ram but no where near his size. There we also 15 other rams with him under and around that tree. I was on my Honeymoon that week and seeing him made the trip that much sweeter.
I agree, sure looks like the same ram to me too, those two picture comparisons are hard to argue with, damn near the same pose and everything.
That makes me sad, he was a trusting ol trooper. I got quite close, I probably could have gotten closer but I didn't want to make him feel uncomfortable.
There was one other legal ram but no where near his size. There we also 15 other rams with him under and around that tree. I was on my Honeymoon that week and seeing him made the trip that much sweeter.
I was sad to see him go also, I looked forward to seeing him every fall. He had his biggest horns when you saw him, he was at his peak and prime, that right horn may have been as long as 45 inches. Over the next couple of years until his end he had broomed back a fair bit, especially on that right side.
We've had two other rams of that stature in the past. Right now with him gone we have no real big ones, but there's a couple up and comers that look like they have potential. It's not that often they can be seen in town in July and August, but in 2005, 2006 we were in the middle of one of the most severe droughts we've had in the EK and those green lawns were just too appealing I guess. I don't know what the future holds for this herd, the TCH twinning project is going to destroy the little habitat they have and greatly interfere with their movements for a four year period. I hope they can survive this huge disruption.
mcrae
02-24-2009, 04:33 PM
I am not a sheep hunter so I don't know a big ram from a little ram but it sure is sad that these rams get poached by these rejects. It kinda bugs me that we get cheated out of these big ole boys by poachers...
Heres a pic of a nice ram I took in golden, late fall 2007. Is he still around??
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/data/500/medium/IMGA0078.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/../photos/showphoto.php?photo=13047&size=big&cat=500)
Hard to say, there's quite a few heavily broomed older ams that all look remarkably alike.
Could be one of these, possibly the one on the right?
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/DSCN0015.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=13048&size=big&cat=500)
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