Mountain Goat (mis)information

[PGK]

Some recent studies coming from Caw Ridge in Alberta, an area of long term close-contact goat research is suggesting that the capability of nannies to produce offspring is the flip from other ungulates, whose capability to produce offspring typically peaks at middle age.
It's being discovered that old nannies are the most productive of all mountain goat nannies. Essentially, as female goats age, they are better at producing and raising young. The research is suggesting that there may be no such thing as an 'old dry nanny'
For the goat hunters, it becomes a particular predicament, because for so long the paradigm has been to select a male goat, or failing that, an obviously aged nanny.
Interesting times ahead for Mtn. Goat management.....

[Browningmirage]

Because we all know buddy here generally doesnt post links to articles

Offspring sex ratio in relation to maternal age and social rank in mountain goats (Oreamnos americanus)
Steeve D. Côté · Marco Festa-Bianchet


"In polygynous mammals, high-quality females may increase their fitness by producing a high proportion of sons. During a 9-year study of marked mountain goats (Oreamnos americanus), we assessed the relative effects of maternal age, social rank and reproductive status on offspring sex ratio. The sex ratio of kids in the population did not differ from unity (75 males, 85 females). The proportion of female kids decreased markedly with maternal age. Young females (h6 years old) produced approximately 70% daughters, while old females (S10 years old) produced about 25% daughters. The proportion of females born did not vary with maternal social rank when accounting for mother's age. Weaning success one year did not affect the probability of producing a son or a daughter the following year. Kid sex was independent of the sex of the kid produced by the same female the previous year. Because the proportion of daughters produced decreased dramatically with age, and because males appear more costly to rear than females in sexually dimorphic ungulates, our data suggest that the ability to provide maternal care may increase with age in mountain goats. Accepting that older mothers are better mothers because of higher social rank and experience, our data support the predictions of the Trivers and Willard hypothesis."


Published in 2001

[kootenayelkslayer]

Just more incetive for hunters to try their damndest to properly identify goats, and choose to pass on nannies and just harvest billies.

[kennyj]

Very interesting.Goats are awesome!
Thanks for posting.
kenny

[PGK]

The 2001 paper but suggests the more recent findings. None of this research has been published yet (to my knowledge). If you find anything, feel free to post it.

[GoatGuy]

There are about 20 papers and they've written a book. It's an interesting read.

I've had the chance to poke Dr.Cote's brain a couple times.

You need to know the study area and the methodology to make a correct assessment.

Until all that happens you cannot take this research seriously.

There are a couple of big gaps in the research when it comes to a management point of view.

[PGK]

Yeah I know. But I thought this should be at least posted. It's probably highly dependent on location, but it is very interesting information.

[GoatGuy]

Cote's homepage on sheep and goats.

http://mouflons.pvp.ca/

Should be some stuff there.

Cote and his students have been published several times. You folks up at UNBC should have access to them.

I'm sure you've had/have Gillingham as a prof. He's probably also up on the research and has access to the papers.

The book's a good read for the everyday guy. Doesn't get too complicated.

[PGK]

Yup. We do. I didn't want to get into it too far here, just to give everyone one last thing to think about before squeezing off on that big 'dry' nanny.

[GoatGuy]

Yup. We do. I didn't want to get into it too far here, just to give everyone one last thing to think about before squeezing off on that big 'dry' nanny.

You've been paying attention in class?

[PGK]

You've been paying attention in class?

Is 93 paying attention?

[GoatGuy]

Is 93 paying attention?

better than a swift kick in the @ss on a cold day.

[6616]

Not speaking specifically to Dr Cote's paper, but in general it's interesting to note how the data base and knowledge on all/any species continues to grow and expand, and of course the management strategies and objectives have to evolve with this information as well.

The persons who do not absorb and consider the latest verified information will soon find themselves and their knowledge base completelly outdated, perhaps even still believing disproven things like antler restrictions make bigger bulls and bucks, or that you should never under any circumstances shoot females or juveniles, etc. Ever hear those theories before,,,,that's a joke of course, and some day (a long time from now) you won't hear them anymore, but it's surprizing how long it takes old wives tales to die...! I'll bet there's still people out there who bleed themselves with leeches to cure the common cold.

[BCrams]

I met Cote a few years ago and had a good discussion regarding goats.

I often wonder about the study area and how it compares to mountain goat habitat / population and outside influences in other areas. Sort of the same thing when you look at Festa's sheep research of the Sheep River herd .... or better known as the Sanctuary. I have heard the Santuary sheep have been virtually studied to death to the point where perhaps the sheep are affected by the researchers themselves.

[guest]

Good information and thanks for the post.
There's no doubt that the older nannies, like older Rams for Mnt. Sheep, are one of the most important links to Mountain Goat survival of a healthy population. They are in allot of ways the leaders of the pack. More so even than the Billies. This is why, if your determined to harvest a goat that it be a Billy, should you not select a mature Billy, then take a juvinille, but leave the long horned mature old nannies alone. If not, groups may continue to decline and leave no opportunity for us at all.
CT

[GoatGuy]

Good information and thanks for the post.
There's no doubt that the older nannies, like older Rams for Mnt. Sheep, are one of the most important links to Mountain Goat survival of a healthy population. They are in allot of ways the leaders of the pack. More so even than the Billies. This is why, if your determined to harvest a goat that it be a Billy, should you not select a mature Billy, then take a juvinille, but leave the long horned mature old nannies alone. If not, groups may continue to decline and leave no opportunity for us at all.
CT

Funny you brought this up. The most expendable part of the population was young billies (2-3 yr olds).

[GoatGuy]

I met Cote a few years ago and had a good discussion regarding goats.

I often wonder about the study area and how it compares to mountain goat habitat / population and outside influences in other areas. Sort of the same thing when you look at Festa's sheep research of the Sheep River herd .... or better known as the Sanctuary. I have heard the Santuary sheep have been virtually studied to death to the point where perhaps the sheep are affected by the researchers themselves.

An isolated population without contiguous habitat, extremely long lived animals as compared to other studied goat populations, extremely slow growth rates and several goats that 'disappeared' throughout the study.

Perfect spot for research, not the best for real world.

[BCrams]

An isolated population without contiguous habitat, extremely long lived animals as compared to other studied goat populations, extremely slow growth rates and several goats that 'disappeared' throughout the study.

Perfect spot for research, not the best for real world.

My thoughts exactly. Great research spot but compared to other goat populations / habitat, not a whole lot of parity. Granted though, some aspects of research have revealed good stuff to think about.

[boxhitch]

I am a strong believer in the need for a good number of older animals in any species but maybe survivors like goats and sheep even more so. The old moms and dads get old by doing things different., Better predator avoidance, better habitat usage and better use of security terrain are a few.
These traits have to be passed down to new generations in order for better survival. Yeah, the genetices are there if breeding happens in younger aged animals, but then we just have a bunch of dumb youngsters. Follow the old wise sage.

[GoatGuy]

I am a strong believer in the need for a good number of older animals in any species but maybe survivors like goats and sheep even more so. The old moms and dads get old by doing things different., Better predator avoidance, better habitat usage and better use of security terrain are a few.
These traits have to be passed down to new generations in order for better survival. Yeah, the genetices are there if breeding happens in younger aged animals, but then we just have a bunch of dumb youngsters. Follow the old wise sage.

You're right this has already been shown especially with K selected species.

That one on Dalls out of Alaska was really good.

[boxhitch]

That one on Dalls out of Alaska was really good.have to send me that one, thanks.


especially with K selected species.

?? knew I missed something in school

[Browningmirage]

Is 93 paying attention?


haha
:biggrin: