Calf Season

[hunterofthedeer]

should there be a calf season (region 7)? I think it you should have to draw a calf tag. what is the reason for the calf season anyways is it to control numbers? ive read in outdoor canada that moose population is slightly decreasing. I know 4 people who got a calf so its not like the tags are going unpunched

what do you guys know? i am just sort of curious

[hunter1947]

I have never been a believer on shooting any young animals ,they are our up and coming recruitments.

I am a believer to let them grow up take something that has more years under its belt.

[Bushman]

I'm a firm believer in not shooting any calf or immature animals...they are the future. After living in the wilds year-round and seeing for myself the many hardships and dangers an animal has to face just to be lucky enough to make it to maturity, it seems foolish to me to kill next year's crop of harvestable animals.

I once asked a CO in region 7 about the calf season and he told me the land would simply not support more moose numbers. In other words, the land had reached its carrying capacity. I found that hard to believe.

[3kills]

the season is there for a reason

[2704u]

Not a new argument between hunters. Something to consider.... does a rancher shoot his calves?

[Sitkaspruce]

Do a search on here, this has been beaten, got up again and beaten to death. Type in "Calf season in 7b" in the mainland search, there is a ton of comments, and I believe even a poll.

and as for my opinion, I am all for it. Lived in 7b for 15 years, guided for 11 of those and saw a good x section of moose #'s with a steady population. Region 7b is the best managed moose population in NA, so something must be right.:eek:;)

Cheers

SS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Do a search on here, this has been beaten, got up again and beaten to death. Type in "Calf season in 7b" in the mainland search, there is a ton of comments, and I believe even a poll.

and as for my opinion, I am all for it. Lived in 7b for 15 years, guided for 11 of those and saw a good x section of moose #'s with a steady population. Region 7b is the best managed moose population in NA, so something must be right.:eek:;)

Cheers

SS

7B or 7A?? Need more coffee?:wink:

Here's a couple of the threads mentioned
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=27839&highlight=Calf+season

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=15970&highlight=Calf+season

Lots of reading.




SSS

[PGK]

Oy

Discussed to death.

As of right now, there is emphasis being put on knocking back the moose numbers in region 7A to (in theory) help knock back the predator populations, which will in turn give the threatened caribou some breathing room. Evidenced by an unprecedented 25 day calf season in regions 7-16 and 7-23 this year.

That being said, take a good look at what we've done to the landscape anywhere in the region and you'll see why numbers have been going up for years now. Cutblocks cutblocks cutblocks! Moose habitat far and wide in places that have never been moose habitat until the last 15 years.

In my opinion, it increases hunter opportunity to put the best meat on the table, and has little to no effect on the overall population number (as most of the harvested calves would have died during the winter anyway, in theory)

As for "carrying capacity" and it's unlikeliness, it's hard to reach a maximum "carrying capacity" when you keep increasing the available habitat!

[kgriz]

Very well put PGK...couldn't agree more:-D

[hunterofthedeer]

Im sorry if there already was a calf season post. I just joined and was wondering what you guys thought. What do you think of the calf season being a draw.

Thanks for your opinion

[PGK]

Calf season should not be on LEH. Ever! The reasons for calf season fly directly in the face of LEH.

LEH is for mangers to still allow harvest while restricting the numbers of animals harvested. This is why cow seasons are on LEH. Mangers don't want to pound the cows, but realize there is a harvestable surplus of them, so some LEH are available. In most areas where there are moose-wolf-caribou interactions, cow moose LEHs have been increasing, for the reasons I stated above.

A calf season is used to remove animals from the population that would A) not survive the winter anyway and/or B) help to reduce the overall population of animals.

Putting calf seasons on LEH would be completely pointless.

[huntergirl270]

Not a new argument between hunters. Something to consider.... does a rancher shoot his calves?

Nope.. but some of them stick them in little cages so they can't move around and fatten them up for veal :)

[Phil A. Bowl]

usually i would leave them alone,I went up there with a leh bull tag and came home with a calf .I must say they are tender and tasty8-) :biggrin:The season must be there for a reason!!!

[GoatGuy]

Not a new argument between hunters. Something to consider.... does a rancher shoot his calves?

Is there any compensatory mortality in a farmers herd?

Do beef cows twin?

Do moose calves grow up in a pen behind a fence with a two-legged feeder?

Do ranchers like feeding predators as much as some hunters seem to?

:roll::roll::roll::roll:

[PGK]

Is there any compensatory mortality in a farmers herd?

Do beef cows twin?

Do moose calves grow up in a pen behind a fence with a two-legged feeder?

Do ranchers like feeding predators as much as some hunters seem to?

:roll::roll::roll::roll:

:mrgreen: I was going to comment on this but I figured someone would get it. That's like comparing apples and cheese, you're not even in the same food group anymore :mrgreen:

[JeremyCarrano302]

well it should be under the cow/calf draw but the season is open during the time of the draw which dont makes much sense to me and todays calves are tomorrows immatures

[PGK]

Wow.... you've pulled a 180 against your prior thoughts on the calf season!

Have I? I've always been for it.

[PGK]

Uh oh.....Bcrams post is gone.....caught with your pants down? :mrgreen:

[BCrams]

Yea ... I double checked and you're right ....... for once lol.

[PGK]

Yea ... I double checked and you're right ....... for once lol.

Hahahaahahaa

[Fisher-Dude]

Have I? I've always been for it.

Oddly, you don't support a strategy of harvesting elk across all age classes in the EK though. I guess as long as you can dump a calf in your backyard, you don't care what people in 4E can hunt. Quite hypocritical of you, Tinney.

[PGK]

Oddly, you don't support a strategy of harvesting elk across all age classes in the EK though. I guess as long as you can dump a calf in your backyard, you don't care what people in 4E can hunt. Quite hypocritical of you, Tinney.

Seriously? We're going to compare elk management in 4 to moose management in 7? Really? OK go for it. Come on, give me both barrels.

[hunter1947]

Calf season should not be on LEH. Ever! The reasons for calf season fly directly in the face of LEH.

LEH is for mangers to still allow harvest while restricting the numbers of animals harvested. This is why cow seasons are on LEH. Mangers don't want to pound the cows, but realize there is a harvestable surplus of them, so some LEH are available. In most areas where there are moose-wolf-caribou interactions, cow moose LEHs have been increasing, for the reasons I stated above.

A calf season is used to remove animals from the population that would A) not survive the winter anyway and/or B) help to reduce the overall population of animals.

Putting calf seasons on LEH would be completely pointless.

PGK if so can you or others tell me if you can tell if a calf moose is a weak one or strong one by looking at one ???.


If an area is overpopulated from moose I would think it would be better to target the bigger eaters from eating up the habitat like the adults to control the bull to cow numbers when the moose get to hi numbers in a region.

I don't support an LEH season on calf moose what I do believe in is in order to reduce moose numbers is to ether have a longer season opening as for bull moose with no point restrictions as for a short season for cow moose.

Years ago a Montana biologist told me that point restrictions don't work on moose or elk.

[tmarschall]

If the area is overpopulated with moose, shooting adult moose will not help the calves. The remaining adult moose will just have more to eat. It is a simple matter of being able to reach the food. The calves simply cant reach as far as the adult moose. Do you remember putting candy on top of the fridge instead of the counter to keep the kiddos from getting to it.... same principle!

[hunter1947]

If the area is overpopulated with moose, shooting adult moose will not help the calves. The remaining adult moose will just have more to eat. It is a simple matter of being able to reach the food. The calves simply cant reach as far as the adult moose. Do you remember putting candy on top of the fridge instead of the counter to keep the kiddos from getting to it.... same principle!

The way I see it is that if there are less moose adults in a region to eat up the lower habitat then there will be more growth at lower height's allowing the calf's to get there food.

[oldtimer]

Well we had a LEH for cow in region 7 and one of the cows we took had a very young calf with her. We took the calf as well , it would not have survived on its own for the winter so I have no problem with this scenario. Mike

[BCrams]

[quote=hunter1947;407102]PGK if so can you or others tell me if you can tell if a calf moose is a weak one or strong one by looking at one ???.

Sometimes and more or less the time of year (fall vs spring), but generally the calf moose harvested are in excellent shape!!

If an area is overpopulated from moose I would think it would be better to target the bigger eaters from eating up the habitat like the adults to control the bull to cow numbers when the moose get to hi numbers in a region.

Its better for a population as a whole to harvest all age components and not just mature animals.

I don't support an LEH season on calf moose what I do believe in is in order to reduce moose numbers is to ether have a longer season opening as for bull moose with no point restrictions as for a short season for cow moose.

Have you read the report about Reg. 7a moose management? Its management is recognized as the best in Canada / N.A.

Years ago a Montana biologist told me that point restrictions don't work on moose or elk.

How come when the elk thread debates started on the merrits of the 6 point bull elk season, you didn'tmention that right away and throw your support for limited 3 pt elk seasons?

[tmarschall]

The way I see it is that if there are less moose adults in a region to eat up the lower habitat then there will be more growth at lower height's allowing the calf's to get there food.

Wayne
That might work where the population level is such that some food is left for the calves. But it is also true if the population is that high, mature moose should be harvested as well as calves. There are definitely more factors that are involved, more than can be covered here.

[6616]

I don't support an LEH season on calf moose what I do believe in is in order to reduce moose numbers is to ether have a longer season opening as for bull moose with no point restrictions as for a short season for cow moose.

Years ago a Montana biologist told me that point restrictions don't work on moose or elk.

Managers cannot control population densities of any ungulate species by harvesting males alone, no matter what the age class. It's basically necessary to harvest females and calves to control population densities. Calf harvest is largely compensatory and does not impact herd demographics as much and calf harvest has a better chance of having some effect on predator numbers. LEH should not be required with a population base as large as Region 7a has. Simply adjusting the length of the cow/calf seasons should be sufficient to contol harvest rates.

Whether antler point restrictions work depends on the management objective. If the objective is to allow some opportunity over a long season, but to reduce the bull harvest they can accomplish that objective. If antler point restrictions are being used to increase mature bull numbers or overall antler size they don't work.

Antler point restrictions and LEH are not friendly strategies for recruitment/retention of hunters and considering the situation today I think most management decisions should take recruitment/retention into consideration. Of course conservation comes first and restrictions are necessary in many cases, but let's not be overly restrictive when it's not necessary. Keep in mind we're dealing with a moose population base of 50,000 moose in 7A. The success of the 7A moose management stratgey is all due to the fact that a population cross section of all age and sex classes are harvested each year thus keeping the social structure of the herd healthy.

[Will]

If there are open Calf seasons I will take advantage of them when it suits me....nothing wrong with it IMO it's an effective means to an end.

Dumped a few calves near Mckenzie over the years and I never once complained about how they tasted.

I also put in for Doe draws.........http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/images/smilies/Stirthepot2.gif

[jml11]

Does anyone know how many calves are actually harvested each year? My impressions are that the number is not that high??? I am basing this on my own experiences and those of fellow hunters. In six years of hunting on 7A I have personally harvested 5 bulls (been pretty lucky with the two-pointers!) and have never harvested a calf as a result. I have only been a part of one calf kill over that time and several other bull kills. My 'entourage' of hunters rarely harvest calves for similar reasons. I personally only know one person who has harvested a calf in the past 3 seasons and none last year and we are all avid hunters. Just a guess here but the 7A moose calf moose harvest is about 100 animals maybe 200 in a good year???? or am I out to lunch? Based on 6616 estimate of 50,000 moose in 7A, the calf moose harvest would then be negligible...

[BCrams]

Since 2000

Juvenile moose harvest in 7a

Low of ~500 ish and high of ~860 ish

There are a couple good years in the past with over 1000 juveniles harvested.

The majority of moose harvest I've had over the years are calf moose including the majority of guys I know.

[PGK]

Sounds good!

Wayne, you're dead set against killing baby animals. That's fine with me, just don't try to pretend that you are right because you read some study. And as far as point restrictions and moose, I don't really think there is a need for them. The only reason we have a 2point regulation is to allow for some 'no-consequence' harvest. Of yearling bulls, only a percentage will be 2 points, and only a percentage of those 2 points will be harvested.

You need to look what your goals are!! 7A has a huge moose population, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Calf harvest in 7A 1976 - 2006:

1976 233
1977 122
1978 312
1979 269
1980 475
1981 981
1982 926
1983 1135
1984 1107
1985 1096
1986 1406
1987 730
1988 767
1989 719
1990 511
1991 725
1992 616
1993 754
1994 668
1995 691
1996 642
1997 725
1998 963
1999 466
2000 722
2001 766
2002 917
2003 861
2004 501
2005 766
2006 638

[GoatGuy]

"Why Hunt Moose Calves?"




By Mike Taras

http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/pubs/wildlife_news/images/521.jpg Hunting calf moose calves emulates natural mortality more closely than bull-only hunts. Because fewer calves survive through winter than any other age category, a higher percentage of calves that are harvested by hunters would die over the winter anyway. “Most calves and fawns will soon die. Only the luckiest and fittest will survive. Therefore either hunters or Mother Nature can take them. The logical harvesting strategy is to take calves or fawns during the fall hunting seasons, before winter can waste them.”

-Valerius Geist, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Science at the University of Calgary, Alberta, and leading authority on wild ungulates.

Some people are genuinely taken aback to realize that game managers use calf hunts as part of their strategy to manage moose populations in some areas. I have even heard dyed-in-the-wool hunters claim that it is unethical to kill calves - and that it will destroy moose populations.

In truth, calf hunting is a widely used and effective management tool. A quick look at game management and the history of the “buck only” hunting ethic will clear up these misconceptions about harvesting antlerless animals.

The word ‘calf’ conjures the image of a helpless newborn lying wet in the grass, hiding still and silent from predators. It is important to note that calf hunts take place in the fall when calves are relatively large and capable of living on their own. By September moose calves can weigh 300-400 pounds, roughly the size of an adult bull caribou, and yield about 100 pounds of boned-out meat.

Cow and calf hunting was not a contentious issue until the turn of the 20th century. Widespread market hunting and unrestricted hunting for food culminated around the 1890s, and many game animals in the Lower 48 were virtually eliminated. In that era, all ages and sexes of animals were harvested - people hunted for meat and it made little difference if there were antlers on the animal’s head. People also did not understand the principle of sustainable yield and many held the attitude that it was only a matter of time before there would be no game left - so they had better get their share.

Fortunately, at the turn of the century game management agencies began to implement and enforce regulations to protect and increase the remaining game populations. To grow the populations agencies prohibited the harvest of antlerless animals - a good strategy for low or declining populations.

Pennsylvania was one state to spearhead this effort to rebuild their obliterated white-tailed deer population. Initially, resistance to the “buck only” policy was considerable, and enforcement was difficult. Over time, efforts to educate the public were successful, and attitudes began to change. Enforcement became more effective, and the deer population rebounded.

“All western states allow taking of calves and fawns,” said Fairbanks Area Biologist Don Young. Recently, Colorado hunters took more that 4,000 elk calves, and Pennsylvania hunters took more than 100,000 deer fawns. Many Canadian provinces and all Scandinavian countries allow taking of moose calves. “Forty percent of the moose harvest in Scandinavia is composed of calves,” Young said.
Alaska had no regulation prohibiting the harvest of moose calves from 1959 until 2002, and it has always been legal to take calf caribou and fawn deer in Alaska. A short-lived statewide prohibition on harvesting moose calves was rescinded at the 2004 Board of Game meeting because there was no biological need to protect calves statewide.

“The repeal of the calf harvest prohibition does not make it legal to harvest calves throughout the state,” said Young. “It only makes it legal in areas where there is an any-bull bag limit, an antlerless-moose bag limit, or a specified calf hunt is in place.” This same scenario has existed since statehood.

Alaska is a huge state with incredibly diverse ecosystems, habitat and animal populations. No two populations face the same conditions - habitat, weather, predator pressure and hunting pressure is different across the state - and different management strategies are used in different areas.

Controlled calf hunts can allow managers to:

• Increase hunting opportunity while stabilizing high density, increasing populations.
• Help reduce the hunting pressure on adult bulls where the bull:cow ratio is below management objectives.
• Increase the sustainable yield of a population to help meet intensive management harvest objectives.
http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/pubs/wildlife_news//images/522.jpg These “broomed” willows near Fairbanks show the impacts of overbrowsing by moose in the area.

Young manages the largest moose population in the state, on the Tanana Flats region outside of Fairbanks (Unit 20A and 20B). Although large and increasing, the population is nutritionally stressed and is managed for intensive harvest. Young is a major proponent of a selective harvest strategy which he describes as the movement from general harvest of bulls-only to more selective harvest across age and sex class (bulls, calves, and cows). Selective harvest ultimately increases yield and allows for micromanagement and stabilizing of populations.

“Calf hunts are not the appropriate management tool in all locations, but a combination of high moose density, poor habitat, and an intensive management mandate make Unit 20A an ideal location,” Young said.

Young said biologically, harvesting calves emulates natural mortality more closely than a bull-only hunt. Because fewer calves survive through winter than any other age category, a higher percentage of calves that are harvested by hunters would die over the winter anyway--either from starvation or predators. Biologists call this compensatory mortality. Harvest of adult animals, on the other hand, is called additive mortality because adults are far less likely to die over the winter.

Taking a low percentage of calves can increase hunting opportunity and yield, while having little effect on the population stability. This is an important concept when faced with intensive management. How else can you provide more hunting opportunity, put meat on more tables, yet apply minimal extra pressure on a population?

New tools have helped biologists fine-tune game management. “We have seen many advances in moose ecology, population studies and management methods during the past 30 years,” said ADF&G Research Biologist Rodney Boertje.

The use of radio collars, moose density surveys, twinning surveys, and vegetation studies now provide managers with a reliable way to determine when cow and calf hunts are appropriate. In addition, all antlerless hunts in Alaska must be approved annually by citizen advisory committees and the Board of Game to ensure that the harvest is having the desired effect.

Today, cow hunts are so common in certain areas that they hardly raise an eyebrow. In fact, many drawing permits for cow moose are coveted. Cow hunts are a critical tool for managers to maintain healthy moose herds and protect the public, especially near urban areas where there are lots of moose/auto collisions, or in high density moose populations. Bull-only hunts have their place, but so do cow and calf hunts. Managers need all the tools they can use to ensure sustainability of Alaska’s moose, one of our most important natural resources.

For a more information about Selective Harvest Strategy in Region III and/or a brochure about Moose Calf Hunts as a Management Tool, contact:

Don Young, Area Biologist
Alaska Department of Fish and Game
Division of Wildlife Conservation
1300 College Road
Fairbanks, AK 99701-1599
Phone: 907 459-7233
Fax: 907 452-6410
Email: don_young@fishgame.state.ak.us






http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlife_news.view_article&articles_id=52

[Sitkaspruce]

Thanks for posting this info GG, I was busy trying to find it when I see you had it up.

It has so many good points and folks who are dead set against the calf hunt need to read and re-read this info and try to understand how it works. 7a and some places in Alaska show that it can and does work.

SS
(http://www.google.ca/url?q=http://events.albertawilderness.ca/Awards/AR0410VG.pdf&ei=NHSPSeH-D4r2sAOchriOCQ&sa=X&oi=spellmeleon_result&resnum=1&ct=result&cd=1&usg=AFQjCNEV6F7SOmf9b00hGUcyiz3874rkyw)

[GoatGuy]

Thanks for posting this info GG, I was busy trying to find it when I see you had it up.

It has so many good points and folks who are dead set against the calf hunt need to read and re-read this info and try to understand how it works. 7a and some places in Alaska show that it can and does work.

SS


Europe is also a great example and in Ontario as well. The selective harvest model has been tested and proven successful many times over.

And most of North America (excluding BC) when it comes to harvesting does/fawns/cows/calves and the male segment of the population (bucks/bulls).

We've been feeding predators and cars wildlife for way too long in this province.

It scares me when people have blanket statements about not shooting cows/calves or 'look at what farmers do' or can't shoot an immature because......

People have been running their hunting opportunity over with their cars for the past 30 years in BC because they don't want to put them in the freezer.

It's sad really.

[BCrams]

Lets leave the region 7a moose alone (other than educate) and focus on what needs fixing ...

example - the Kootenay elk

[jml11]

Calf harvest in 7A 1976 - 2006:

1976 233
1977 122
1978 312
1979 269
1980 475
1981 981
1982 926
1983 1135
1984 1107
1985 1096
1986 1406
1987 730
1988 767
1989 719
1990 511
1991 725
1992 616
1993 754
1994 668
1995 691
1996 642
1997 725
1998 963
1999 466
2000 722
2001 766
2002 917
2003 861
2004 501
2005 766
2006 638

Thanks for the info FD. Higher than I thought but probably still low considering the number of calves born each year in 7A. Anybody know how many calves are born each year in 7A? 5,000 to 10,000 sound reasonable??

[Fisher-Dude]

Thanks for the info FD. Higher than I thought but probably still low considering the number of calves born each year in 7A. Anybody know how many calves are born each year in 7A? 5,000 to 10,000 sound reasonable??

6616 estimated 50,000 moose in the region. The bull:cow ratio is 30:100 if the standard is hit (I believe it is in 7A), so figure 40,000 cows and calves (calves are not counted in the bull:cow ratio). Most cows have calves, lots of cows have twins, some have none, some are non-breeding yearlings.

Probably an average of just under 1:1 calves to cows wouldn't be unreasonable. So, there are probably ~15,000 calves born each year.

We shoot about 500 cows and 2100 bulls each year.

[6616]

If there are 50,000 moose in 7A (MOE estimate, not mine) in early spring, 30 bulls per 100 cows, and 30 calves per 100 cows, population breakdown should be somewhat as follows: 9500 bulls, 9500 surviving calves, and about 31,000 cows.

The cow count will actually include most of the yearlings (both male and female) so there's probably in the area of 25,000 breeding age cows and conception rate should be about 80%, so there should be about 20,000 new calves hitting the ground come late spring/early summer.

How many calves need to survive to replace adult mortality, predation losses and hunting harvests? How many calves are thus expendable?

[BCrams]

For an area of 7A (after hunting season)

calves per 100 cows was 24 ± 9.8 moose

[PGK]

Yeah, where are all those flight data anyway? This is the first year they haven't done any moose flights, save independent research in the Parnsip. Are those numbers published somewhere?

[hunterofthedeer]

thanks for your information guys

[Fisher-Dude]

There's no mistaking a cow for a calf. Might I suggest watching LOTS of moose videos or taking CORE again if you're in doubt.

[hunter1947]

I never have taken calf's and never will ,all years hunted I targeted the adults and will continue to do so ,I am a firm believer to let the young ones grow up.
Lets face it if you lived on the island and traveled up north to Fort Nelson or other places up that way and you had two trucks and 4 hunters what age animal would you shoot ???? ,I defintly would not shoot a calf ,if we did and that was the only animal we got we would only get a few pounds of meat on this exspensive hunting trip.
Its alright for you people that live up that way and can walk out you back doors to hunt moose ,I can't..

Can one tell me if there is an area where the numbers of moose are low what would you suggest keep shooting the Young calf's if GOS was allowed ??? or target the bull cow ,or just any bull no cow open season ???.
Or put the region on LEH ,or shut the region down no open season ????.

[6616]

Can one tell me if there is an area where the numbers of moose are low what would you suggest keep shooting the Young calf's if GOS was allowed ??? or target the bull cow ,or just any bull no cow open season ???.
Or put the region on LEH ,or shut the region down no open season ????.

My thoughts:
You don't shoot cows/calves/does/fawns if you want any ungulate herd to expand. If you want to stabilize growth or decrease the size of the herd you almost have to whether one likes it or not. You might have to put bulls on LEH or a 10pt or tri-palm rule to maintain bull/cow ratios. You might be able to continue to shoot immys because you need far less bull recruitment then cow recruitment to replace annual mortality loses simply due to the adult male/female ratio. Bull harvest strategy (young/old) isn't really a critical factor unless male/female ratios are away out of whack, but it's always better to shoot from all age classes rather then single out one particular age class.

You would need a minimum of 25 to 30 calves per 100 cows to live to recruitment age, that's often not a factor you can control with hunting, often winter weather, snow pack, predation, etc can play a bigger role then hunting, so a sure fire method is to log the crap out of the area and shoot the wolves down to a low number. Some experts claim that good moose habitat has about 40% cover and 60% foraging openings and habitat suitability is often the most critical factor.

[6616]

Not a new argument between hunters. Something to consider.... does a rancher shoot his calves?

Yes,,, a rancher always disposes of his calves. Naturally a rancher does not "shoot" a valued commodity, but he does dispose of his calves every year. They all go to the slaughter house, calves are his annual cash crop, so when one considers herd dynamics what's the difference between shooting moose calves or sending Hereford calves to the slaughter house?

A rancher may keep a few replacement heifer calves to maintain his aging breeding cow herd, but if he kept all his heifer calves every year he'd soon have a herd of breeding cows much bigger then his ranch could support.

So the answer is yes, a rancher disoposes of calves at a much higher rate (nearly 100%) then hunting ever does in a herd of moose.

[BCrams]

Not a new argument between hunters. Something to consider.... does a rancher shoot his calves?

Same as 6616.....

When I went out to Saskatchewan wt hunting on a relatives ranch, I spent a couple days helping them round up their cattle and at the end of the days hunt, the evenings were spent herding all the calves onto trucks to go to the auction yard.

The land base he had was able to support up to a herd of 3-4000 head of cattle but they maintained the herd at 1500 to 2000 head max to keep the range healthy year after year and consequently, healthy cattle.

The majority of calves are 'culled' from the herd so to speak. Rounded up and sent to the auction. They also turn out a percentage of adults and replace them with calves they don't sell off.

This keeps the herd numbers at a level which is sustainable for both the rancher and the land base he has.

The same can be considered for wildlife.

[BCrams]

Some experts claim that good moose habitat has about 40% cover and 60% foraging openings and habitat suitability is often the most critical factor.

I worked on a forest stewardship plan regarding ungulate winter range for moose habitat and here are a few guidelines I layed out:

Moose Class 1 & 2 (M1 & M2): Lands characterized by high to very high capability to support moose populations through the winter months. Class 1 range focuses on lowland riparian areas critical to moose for forage under severe winter conditions. Classes 1 & 2 were combined to give a more representative picture of significant winter range in the district.


Management directives as set in the notice for moose are the same for M1 and M2.
These include, but not limited to:
No more than 33% of the area <3 m or 17 years.
Maintain a crown closure of mature forest >30%.
Maintain a minimum of 25% of winter range area with stands >7m high or greater at all times throughout rotatio
Avoid converting deciduous leading stands to conferous leading stands. Conifer groups in a deciduous leading stand should not be harvestd. Likewise patches of deciduous in conifer leading stands should not be logged if possible.
Allow successional processes to evolve on high value forage producing sites, particularly those portions of cut-blocks, which are closest to cover.

Follow harvest guidelines as per section 2.3 (Connectivity) of the ---------------------------------------------. (maintain over 70% of Crown forest land within a landscape corridor segment)
Following these guidelines will meet the required minimum of 30% retained area as required for moose winter range.

[BCrams]

[quote=hunter1947;407709]I never have taken calf's and never will ,all years hunted I targeted the adults and will continue to do so ,I am a firm believer to let the young ones grow up.

It is your choice to harvest what you want. However, if everyone followed your ideal above, it is a recipe for increasing wildlife to numbers which will exceed what the land base can support.

6616 again explains it very well.

Its alright for you people that live up that way and can walk out you back doors to hunt moose ,I can't.

Lets flip the story around. What of all those people who travel to the Kootenays for an elk hunt. A party of 4 or 5 guys go and only harvest 1 six point bull. Thats a mighty expensive trip for just 1 animal. They're frustrated and PO'd because they would run into half a dozen to a dozen 5 point bulls every day (which will never become 6 pt). I am sure those fellows would be more than happy to harvest a 3-5 pt bull they called in and take home 2-3 elk. ;-)

Its not like they can walk out their back door every day of the season until a 6 pt comes in.

[PGK]

I never have taken calf's and never will ,all years hunted I targeted the adults and will continue to do so ,I am a firm believer to let the young ones grow up.
Lets face it if you lived on the island and traveled up north to Fort Nelson or other places up that way and you had two trucks and 4 hunters what age animal would you shoot ???? ,I defintly would not shoot a calf ,if we did and that was the only animal we got we would only get a few pounds of meat on this exspensive hunting trip.
Its alright for you people that live up that way and can walk out you back doors to hunt moose ,I can't..

Can one tell me if there is an area where the numbers of moose are low what would you suggest keep shooting the Young calf's if GOS was allowed ??? or target the bull cow ,or just any bull no cow open season ???.
Or put the region on LEH ,or shut the region down no open season ????.

Wayne, for God's sake, put this garble into some logical questions. I'm just about done trying to help you get your head around this. And if all you're concerned about when you go hunting is how much IT COSTS YOU per pound of meat, I suggest you quit hunting tomorrow!!!

[6616]

Wayne, for God's sake, put this garble into some logical questions. I'm just about done trying to help you get your head around this. And if all you're concerned about when you go hunting is how much IT COSTS YOU per pound of meat, I suggest you quit hunting tomorrow!!!

Ease up there PGK, right or wrong everyone is entiled to their opinion, education is the key but certainly not alienation of a nice guy. Wayne may not agree with us but I'll bet he'll be the first one out there working for wildlife when the need arises.

[PGK]

Ease up there PGK, right or wrong everyone is entiled to their opinion, education is the key but certainly not alienation of a nice guy. Wayne may not agree with us but I'll bet he'll be the first one out there working for wildlife when the need arises.

I'm not disagreeing with his opinion. Opinions are formed via experience and time. Wayne has his, I have mine. By the time I'm 65, I may disagree with a calf hunt as well, but I doubt it.

I want him to form some questions that we can answer, because I know from experience how difficult it can be to get BCrams et al to give a straight answer. Education is what's lacking here. He disagrees with it because he feels we're killing off the future of the population, but he doesn't have a grasp of population dynamics and harvesting paradigms! Eductation, education, education. You can't tie experience together without education!

[6616]

I'm not disagreeing with his opinion. Opinions are formed via experience and time. Wayne has his, I have mine. By the time I'm 65, I may disagree with a calf hunt as well, but I doubt it.

I want him to form some questions that we can answer, because I know from experience how difficult it can be to get BCrams et al to give a straight answer. Education is what's lacking here. He disagrees with it because he feels we're killing off the future of the population, but he doesn't have a grasp of population dynamics and harvesting paradigms! Eductation, education, education. You can't tie experience together without education!

I agree with you, but you "did" disagree with his opinion regarding harvesting of calves and so did I, and that's OK because we're all allowed to have our opinion but we need to keep it friendly or a reasonable discussion will be impossible.

Everyone hunts for their own reasons and hunting for meat is a respectible and legitimate reason. I might not shoot a calf moose under his circumstances either, not because I don't believe calves should be harvested because I do, but simply because I might want more meat then a calf has at that particular time under those particular circumstances.

I'm of the "opinion" that hunter, public, and advisory committee influence and their non-professional opinions are roadblocking effective game management. The professional educated opinion backed up by data and research has to have precedence over lay-person opinions when it comes to technical management decisions. That doesn't change the fact that we're all entitled to have an opinion and I just want to keep it friendly even though our opinions may differ.

[Gateholio]

Wayne, for God's sake, put this garble into some logical questions. I'm just about done trying to help you get your head around this. And if all you're concerned about when you go hunting is how much IT COSTS YOU per pound of meat, I suggest you quit hunting tomorrow!!!

Why does it seem impossible for you to have a civil discussion with someone?

I think it's time you read your responses twice before hitting the POST button.

[hunter1947]

[quote=hunter1947;407709]I never have taken calf's and never will ,all years hunted I targeted the adults and will continue to do so ,I am a firm believer to let the young ones grow up.

It is your choice to harvest what you want. However, if everyone followed your ideal above, it is a recipe for increasing wildlife to numbers which will exceed what the land base can support.

6616 again explains it very well.

Its alright for you people that live up that way and can walk out you back doors to hunt moose ,I can't.

Lets flip the story around. What of all those people who travel to the Kootenays for an elk hunt. A party of 4 or 5 guys go and only harvest 1 six point bull. Thats a mighty expensive trip for just 1 animal. They're frustrated and PO'd because they would run into half a dozen to a dozen 5 point bulls every day (which will never become 6 pt). I am sure those fellows would be more than happy to harvest a 3-5 pt bull they called in and take home 2-3 elk. ;-)

Its not like they can walk out their back door every day of the season until a 6 pt comes in.


BC Rams a 6 point elk will give more meat to 4 people on the hunting trip then one calf moose or a calf elk.

Any ways I am an elk hunter not a moose hunter and I will continue to hunt elk till I can't any more and if they implement a 3 point season so be it ,all the better for us meat hunters..

At least a 3 point elk won't be a calf I shoot.

[6616]

I worked on a forest stewardship plan regarding ungulate winter range for moose habitat and here are a few guidelines I layed out:

Moose Class 1 & 2 (M1 & M2): Lands characterized by high to very high capability to support moose populations through the winter months. Class 1 range focuses on lowland riparian areas critical to moose for forage under severe winter conditions. Classes 1 & 2 were combined to give a more representative picture of significant winter range in the district.


Management directives as set in the notice for moose are the same for M1 and M2.
These include, but not limited to:
No more than 33% of the area <3 m or 17 years.
Maintain a crown closure of mature forest >30%.
Maintain a minimum of 25% of winter range area with stands >7m high or greater at all times throughout rotatio
Avoid converting deciduous leading stands to conferous leading stands. Conifer groups in a deciduous leading stand should not be harvestd. Likewise patches of deciduous in conifer leading stands should not be logged if possible.
Allow successional processes to evolve on high value forage producing sites, particularly those portions of cut-blocks, which are closest to cover.

Follow harvest guidelines as per section 2.3 (Connectivity) of the ---------------------------------------------. (maintain over 70% of Crown forest land within a landscape corridor segment)

Following these guidelines will meet the required minimum of 30% retained area as required for moose winter range.


Good info GReg, I will file this for future reference.
Thanks.

[GoatGuy]

Thanks for the suggestion! I’m not in doubt. I’m really more concerned about the other hunters shooting a cow thinking it was a calf. We all know the basic differences between a calf(<12 mths) & a cow in general-ex. colour, size, & head differences. Occasionally it could be very tricky differentiating between a young cow & a large calf(say a male that is between 6 to <12 mths old) IMO
Consider a photo of a large calf from GG’s post (“Why hunt moose calves”) & compare it to the following photos of young cow moose.

http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/pubs/wildlife_news/images/521.jpg


http://image34.webshots.com/34/6/94/48/264969448cVztUa_ph.jpg (http://image34.webshots.com/34/6/94/48/264969448cVztUa_ph.jpg)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2064/1702026853_a0b15b8976.jpg?v=0 (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2064/1702026853_a0b15b8976.jpg?v=0)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/470691859_b890bd5678.jpg?v=0 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/167/470691859_b890bd5678.jpg?v=0)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/490754437_ce7c8c2a2a.jpg?v=0 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/210/490754437_ce7c8c2a2a.jpg?v=0)
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/113/257962250_a3f0f7fcee.jpg?v=0 (http://farm1.static.flickr.com/113/257962250_a3f0f7fcee.jpg?v=0)
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_WVzcMFzz-Dc/RztCiPJaqkI/AAAAAAAABS8/OJbfznql05E/IMG_0901.JPG (http://lh6.ggpht.com/_WVzcMFzz-Dc/RztCiPJaqkI/AAAAAAAABS8/OJbfznql05E/IMG_0901.JPG)
A cow & her calf (note-the faces are very similar-the calf doesn’t have that stubby face look as expected)
http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/pubs/wildlife_news/images/2661.JPG (http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/pubs/wildlife_news/images/2661.JPG)

A few years back at daybreak north of Germansen I watched a large cow with 2 large calves walk slowly across a swampy clearing to within about 100 ft or so & crossed a forestry road . The cow was a bit darker & larger but the head shapes looked similar. My regular hunting partner was moose calling using a wet string in an empty tin can only a few hundred yards away. (not once did any of the 3 moose react in any way to the calls)

Mistakes happen every day during hunting seasons. People shoot does when they thought it was a buck.

The question you have to ask is: Is there so much illegal harvest that it's a) negatively affecting the population
b) happening so often that overall hunter opportunity is being taken away/minimized due to this one season
c) having a serious negative social impact on hunters


There answer is: no.

[GoatGuy]

[quote=BCrams;407810]


BC Rams a 6 point elk will give more meat to 4 people on the hunting trip then one calf moose or a calf elk.

Any ways I am an elk hunter not a moose hunter and I will continue to hunt elk till I can't any more and if they implement a 3 point season so be it ,all the better for us meat hunters..

At least a 3 point elk won't be a calf I shoot.

H1947 hunting seasons should be about wildlife management and putting meat in people's freezers. Once we drift into the 'social' side we run into numerous problems.

Until a couple years ago the folks in 7A didn't even have an elk season. They had the option to go hunt immature bulls (low success rate) or put a calf in the freezer which is some of the best eating around and you have a reasonable chance of putting meat in the freezer. Otherwise they were stuck waiting at the mailbox like one of Pavlov's dogs hoping to get an LEH so they could go shoot something.

The season isn't negatively affecting the population and it gives people the opportunity to hunt annually AND have a reasonable chance of putting meat in the freezer AND it isn't LEH.

What could be better?

Are calves better off being eaten by predators dying in the winter or being put in someones deep freeze?


They make the best table fare.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

some idiot with sort of degree says that winter mortality rate is 50% anyway so he figgered lets shoot half of them before the winter so all remainining calves will survive and the 50% mortality rate will become usefull

what the jackass cant get thru his head is that only 25% (sometimes more ...sometimes less) of the original calves will now survive the winter.

and some idiot in Victoria bought that story and thats why the moose population is presently on the decline here in BC

[GoatGuy]

some idiot with sort of degree says that winter mortality rate is 50% anyway so he figgered lets shoot half of them before the winter so all remainining calves will survive and the 50% mortality rate will become usefull

what the jackass cant get thru his head is that only 25% (sometimes more ...sometimes less) of the original calves will now survive the winter.

and some idiot in Victoria bought that story and thats why the moose population is presently on the decline here in BC

The moose population is presently on the decline here in BC? Really?

Exactly what does that have to do with the calf season?


The only place that has a calf season is 7A so you'd assume that IF the moose population was on the decline here in BC it wouldn't have too much to do with the calf season because we have moose hunting in Regions 3,4,5,6,7A,7B and 8.

Not to mention that calf/cow harvest in Regions 3,4,5 is next to nothing and that there is now calf/cow LEH in regions 6,7B or 8.

Also 7A has had the most consistent and sustainable moose seasons across the province for the last 25 years.:?

[6616]

some idiot with sort of degree says that winter mortality rate is 50% anyway so he figgered lets shoot half of them before the winter so all remainining calves will survive and the 50% mortality rate will become usefull

what the jackass cant get thru his head is that only 25% (sometimes more ...sometimes less) of the original calves will now survive the winter.

and some idiot in Victoria bought that story and thats why the moose population is presently on the decline here in BC


Mike, do you understand the difference between compensatory and additive mortallity?

Additive Mortality: Mortality that adds to or increases the existing mortality rate.
Compensatory Mortality: Mortality that replaces or displaces existing mortality and does not increase the overall mortality rate.

(In my own words)

[hunter1947]

[quote=hunter1947;408009]

H1947 hunting seasons should be about wildlife management and putting meat in people's freezers. Once we drift into the 'social' side we run into numerous problems.

Until a couple years ago the folks in 7A didn't even have an elk season. They had the option to go hunt immature bulls (low success rate) or put a calf in the freezer which is some of the best eating around and you have a reasonable chance of putting meat in the freezer. Otherwise they were stuck waiting at the mailbox like one of Pavlov's dogs hoping to get an LEH so they could go shoot something.

The season isn't negatively affecting the population and it gives people the opportunity to hunt annually AND have a reasonable chance of putting meat in the freezer AND it isn't LEH.

What could be better?

Are calves better off being eaten by predators dying in the winter or being put in someones deep freeze?


They make the best table fare.

40 years ago I never heard of elk south of the 156 mile mark on the Alaska Hi way.
It was good elk management that increased the herds and the elk filtered south.
Can someone tell me if they had open season for calf elk back in region 7-50 ,7-49 ,7-48 in the late 60ties ???.

My thought has always been that after you telly up winter kill and predator kill as for hunter that take there fair share of calf moose there are just a small percentage of moose calf's that will make it to the second year of life and even when a two year old makes it to the second year or third year they still have a hard time with winter kill as for predators kills.

Lets look at the fork bull moose the have already made it past the first year if they made it by the first year and into the second year my thoughts are that they will have a better chance on making adult age.

The regs say in that there is a big part of 7A that there is a calf bull season open from Sept 10 to Nov 5 as for other parts of the region that is open for 15 day season ,that is to long of a season for calf's I would say.

Keep hammering the one and two year olds and the numbers are going to decline thats the way I see it and I'm sticking to my thoughts.

In these areas you still have to look at the marcher bulls and cows that are taken in a GOS as well. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif .

[wolverine]

Not a new argument between hunters. Something to consider.... does a rancher shoot his calves?

No but he sells them off, even at a loss, (which is most of the time anyway) if there is not enough grass on the range to feed them. Keeps the herd healthy instead of starved and sick.

[hunter1947]

No but he sells them off, even at a loss, (which is most of the time anyway) if there is not enough grass on the range to feed them. Keeps the herd healthy instead of starved and sick.

No but he sells them off ,even at a loss ,yes the farmer does sell some calf's off but not ALL.
The farmer sells off adult COWS as well and at at a loss .

[BCrams]

[quote=hunter1947;409004][quote=GoatGuy;408946]

40 years ago I never heard of elk south of the 156 mile mark on the Alaska Hi way.
It was good elk management that increased the herds and the elk filtered south.

Are you sure it was good elk management?? Maybe in your eyes, but I am sure there are a few folks who wished they could turn back time on this one. In particular, areas where Stone's sheep are concerned.

My thought has always been that after you telly up winter kill and predator kill as for hunter that take there fair share of calf moose there are just a small percentage of moose calf's that will make it to the second year of life and even when a two year old makes it to the second year or third year they still have a hard time with winter kill as for predators kills.

Educate yourself a little more in this regard and your thoughts will likely change. You can choose to be ignorant (lacking knowledge) and put forth your own thoughts, or educate yourself (learning is a never ending process).

Lets look at the fork bull moose the have already made it past the first year if they made it by the first year and into the second year my thoughts are that they will have a better chance on making adult age.

The regs say in that there is a big part of 7A that there is a calf bull season open from Sept 10 to Nov 5 as for other parts of the region that is open for 15 day season ,that is to long of a season for calf's I would say.

Calf bull season? :lol:

Unless you're making reference to an immature bull which is no longer a calf. Calf season runs from October 10th through October 25th each year (with exception of 7-16 units last fall opening earlier)

Keep hammering the one and two year olds and the numbers are going to decline thats the way I see it and I'm sticking to my thoughts.

This is where 'ignorant' is hammered home. You're entitled to thoughts, as anyone is on here, however, to put out thoughts like this on a forum is to invite a rebuttal so those who are not 'educated' don't take your words to heart.

Often times, its heresay 'thoughts' like this which cause a ripple effect through the hunting ranks and cause a nightmare at meetings regarding bio's ability to implement proper management.

I would suggest again you read into the moose management strategy of 7a. It has been successful for over 25 years and your 'thought(s)' flies in the face of facts. ;-)

[6616]

A farmer sells 100% of his male calves and 95% of his female calves, that's pretty close to "all", and if wildlife populations sustained a calf loss of 97.5% in a single year I'm pretty sure we'd be using the term "all".

Replacement breeder cows is often less then 5% of his total herd each year. He demands 100% conception from his herd and a dry cow is soon shipped to the auction.

Purebred herd producers often do sell "all" their calves as they don't use their own calves as replacements, but prefer to buy replacement breeder cows from a higher pedegree stock.

Wildlife herds suffer much higher mortality rates, have much lower conception rates, and much lower calf suvival rates, and require significantly higher recruitment rates. The anology to ranching is not a valid arguement regarding wildlife management. No one is even remotely suggesting we shoot "all" of our calf moose every year, that would easily and obviously pass the compensatory harvest level and everyone knows that.

I know some people don't buy it, and some people can't understand it, but harvesting a modest percentage of calves increases the survival rate for the remaining calves. Believe it or not, it's a well researched and well documented fact. The trick is to know just how many you can harvest before the harvest becomes additive and you cause more harm then good. If you harvest a few too many, it's not the end of the world, it's easily corrected the following year by shortening the season and shooting fewer.

The harvesting of females and calves is the only way to avoid the boom and bust cycles caused by a series of mild winters followed by a real bad winter. If done carefully and correctly it can stabilize populations and the cycles will be much less dramatic. It also much closer mimics natural mortality rates and maintains bull/cow ratios and functional herd age/sex social structure.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Mike, do you understand the difference between compensatory and additive mortallity?

Additive Mortality: Mortality that adds to or increases the existing mortality rate.
Compensatory Mortality: Mortality that replaces or displaces existing mortality and does not increase the overall mortality rate.

(In my own words)

My point is ... who knows that the 50% (just throwing numbers for ease of referance btw) that are harvested are the same 50% that will die off in the winter ...
you cannot know ... it does not work that way .... of the 50% remaining ... 50% will will be winter killed .... the numbers are padded .... there is less winter kill because there is less population

just throwing around what makes sense to me... and calf season never has

[PGK]

My point is ... who knows that the 50% (just throwing numbers for ease of referance btw) that are harvested are the same 50% that will die off in the winter ...
you cannot know ... it does not work that way .... of the 50% remaining ... 50% will will be winter killed .... the numbers are padded .... there is less winter kill because there is less population

just throwing around what makes sense to me... and calf season never has

Less competition for good winter range, less crowding on good winter range, less calves for predators to find...

[wolverine]

No but he sells them off ,even at a loss ,yes the farmer does sell some calf's off but not ALL.
The farmer sells off adult COWS as well and at at a loss .

Sorry Wayne, I don't really get your point on that one. I'm not saying to harvest them all. I am saying that if the numbers warrant it culling the calves makes sense to me. Certainly better to cull the calves that have a hell of a lot higher mortality rate than mature adult animals and to leave the breeders in the area. Again, don't kill all of the calves off, that's not what I am advocating. Just saying that the most logical age group to cull are the calves. Yeah, I agree with you. The ranchers are selling off the cows too at a loss. There is no such thing as profitable sales on a ranch right now.Cheers.

[6616]

My point is ... who knows that the 50% (just throwing numbers for ease of referance btw) that are harvested are the same 50% that will die off in the winter ...
you cannot know ... it does not work that way .... of the 50% remaining ... 50% will will be winter killed .... the numbers are padded .... there is less winter kill because there is less population

just throwing around what makes sense to me... and calf season never has

What it boils down to is that the fewer calves there are, the higher their survival rate will be..or in other words culling a few calves increases the survival rate of the remaining calves.

This would be particularily important if the herd is near or above carrying capacity, or if a killer winter happens to come along at that time.

When a moose/deer/elk herd enters a winter with only enough winter forage for 50% of their numbers it doesn't mean that 50% of them are going to die,,,, what it really means is that 100% of them are going to get only 50% enough food, and the result is that 75% to 85% of them are likely to die.

[6616]

less calves for predators to find...

which in turn eventually leads to fewer predators.

[hunter1947]

[quote=hunter1947;409004][quote=GoatGuy;408946]

40 years ago I never heard of elk south of the 156 mile mark on the Alaska Hi way.
It was good elk management that increased the herds and the elk filtered south.

Are you sure it was good elk management?? Maybe in your eyes, but I am sure there are a few folks who wished they could turn back time on this one. In particular, areas where Stone's sheep are concerned.

My thought has always been that after you telly up winter kill and predator kill as for hunter that take there fair share of calf moose there are just a small percentage of moose calf's that will make it to the second year of life and even when a two year old makes it to the second year or third year they still have a hard time with winter kill as for predators kills.

Educate yourself a little more in this regard and your thoughts will likely change. You can choose to be ignorant (lacking knowledge) and put forth your own thoughts, or educate yourself (learning is a never ending process).

Lets look at the fork bull moose the have already made it past the first year if they made it by the first year and into the second year my thoughts are that they will have a better chance on making adult age.

The regs say in that there is a big part of 7A that there is a calf bull season open from Sept 10 to Nov 5 as for other parts of the region that is open for 15 day season ,that is to long of a season for calf's I would say.

Calf bull season? :lol:

Unless you're making reference to an immature bull which is no longer a calf. Calf season runs from October 10th through October 25th each year (with exception of 7-16 units last fall opening earlier)

Keep hammering the one and two year olds and the numbers are going to decline thats the way I see it and I'm sticking to my thoughts.

This is where 'ignorant' is hammered home. You're entitled to thoughts, as anyone is on here, however, to put out thoughts like this on a forum is to invite a rebuttal so those who are not 'educated' don't take your words to heart.

Often times, its heresay 'thoughts' like this which cause a ripple effect through the hunting ranks and cause a nightmare at meetings regarding bio's ability to implement proper management.

I would suggest again you read into the moose management strategy of 7a. It has been successful for over 25 years and your 'thought(s)' flies in the face of facts. ;-)

I know one thing there sure aren't the moose there was 40 years ago in areas I used to hunt years back.
Quad excess have played a big roll on the decline of moose as well.

40 years ago there where no quads around now look at them almost every hunter has one ,they get back into areas where you could not go with a truck.

In the redfern lake area I used to see 80 moose a day 40 years ago now your lucky to see a handful why is that ????.

There was habitat to feed them then.

There should be more then enough habitat to feed the few moose that are in this area now what has changed ???.

The way I see it is over hunted and access being a big part of the decline in moose and this goes for other area regions that are low in numbers as well and having a open season for calf's or two year olds is not helping this problem areas...

[BCrams]

[quote=BCrams;409049][quote=hunter1947;409004]

I know one thing there sure aren't the moose there was 40 years ago in areas I used to hunt years back.
Quad excess have played a big roll on the decline of moose as well.

I don't know where you pull the numbers from, but there are more moose in British Columbia today than there were 40 years ago.

In the redfern lake area I used to see 80 moose a day 40 years ago now your lucky to see a handful why is that ????.

Read your post below .... the answer is because you were there when all the moose were out of the mountains in the wintering grounds. The moose are still there!! However, the season isn't in line to when you used to be able to hunt them on the winter range when they came down from the high side valleys / mountains! :lol:

Hunter1947 posted:
[quote]We used to go in on the first of Nov for two weeks. When you get past the log cabins that the guides own ,you will come up onto the dirt air strip ,then continue on to your right from the air strip.

There was habitat to feed them then.

Habitat is still there. Go back in November / December and you'll see them in all the major valley bottoms like Nevis. Of course there will be added competition these days from elk and bison.

There should be more then enough habitat to feed the few moose that are in this area now what has changed ???.

What changed --- is the timing you were allowed to hunt them. As you mentioned - you went in there in November when the moose are down from the high country and hitting the winter range.

The way I see it is over hunted and access being a big part of the decline in moose and this goes for other area regions that are low in numbers as well and having a open season for calf's or two year olds is not helping this problem areas...

Can you tell me where these problem areas are? Where the decline in moose are? Can you corroborate your statement where open season for calf moose or two year olds are not helping? As GG would say - back up what you're saying.

[jml11]

[quote=BCrams;409049][quote=hunter1947;409004]

I know one thing there sure aren't the moose there was 40 years ago in areas I used to hunt years back.
Quad excess have played a big roll on the decline of moose as well.

40 years ago there where no quads around now look at them almost every hunter has one ,they get back into areas where you could not go with a truck.

In the redfern lake area I used to see 80 moose a day 40 years ago now your lucky to see a handful why is that ????.

There was habitat to feed them then.

There should be more then enough habitat to feed the few moose that are in this area now what has changed ???.

The way I see it is over hunted and access being a big part of the decline in moose and this goes for other area regions that are low in numbers as well and having a open season for calf's or two year olds is not helping this problem areas...


What does this have to do with a calf hunting thread? There is no open calf season in the Nevis Valley...maybe if there was, and the moose harvest was spread out amongst age classes and sexes you would not have the problems in this area you are refering to?

I was in the Nevis Valley a few years back, during the summer, there are plenty of moose still there. Every cow we saw had a calf and some had twins. The year before I was there the packer ran into a herd of 60 one day with 6 legal bulls (tri-palm) :eek:. He took the second biggest only because the biggest was behind a bunch of cows......

[Bowzone_Mikey]

which in turn eventually leads to fewer predators.

which in turn will will raise the amount of calves , which in turn will raise the amount of predators which will lower the amount the calves ....

its a circle that Nature has been doing since before the dawn of time ...

why in the last 100 years (but a drop in the bucket of time) must we take it upon ourselves .... and why are we here in BC pretty much one of the few jurisdictions that thinks this is a good idea

[Fisher-Dude]

There is NO calf season in Redfern. Therefore, you can't blame ANYTHING happening with moose at Redfern on a calf season. ;) Well, maybe you can blame the LACK of a calf season and concentration on antler-restricted bulls for the LACK of moose you claim to be there H47. :p

[jml11]

There is NO calf season in Redfern. Therefore, you can't blame ANYTHING happening with moose at Redfern on a calf season. ;) Well, maybe you can blame the LACK of a calf season and concentration on antler-restricted bulls for the LACK of moose you claim to be there H47. :p


Something else to consider, in the 1960's it was probably unlikley that there were any Elk in the Nevis Valley either, take the quad trail up the Nevis valley into Redfern Lake now and I bet you will see more Elk than moose, a lot more elk...at least I sure did when I spent a few months in there.

[jml11]

which in turn will will raise the amount of calves , which in turn will raise the amount of predators which will lower the amount the calves ....

its a circle that Nature has been doing since before the dawn of time ...

why in the last 100 years (but a drop in the bucket of time) must we take it upon ourselves .... and why are we here in BC pretty much one of the few jurisdictions that thinks this is a good idea


Keep in mind in many locations throughout 7a moose haven't been around that long, caribou were the primary ungulate roaming the mountains nearby. Since we have settled here, we have logged the heck out of the region which has severely impacted the caribou and greatly enhanced moose habitat and populations. The increased road networks have also made it easier for predators to run down the caribou and moose, thus more predators as well. My point is, I think it's difficult to compare a natural cycle with what we have now, as the human factor is an extremely influential variable which didn't exist back then. By managing the moose the way we are now, we are trying what is currently considered the best management tool by leading wildlife managers (who all hunt too by the way) to keep the moose, caribou and predators in check given the landscape we have now. My opinion anyways...

[BCrams]

Something else to consider, in the 1960's it was probably unlikley that there were any Elk in the Nevis Valley either, take the quad trail up the Nevis valley into Redfern Lake now and I bet you will see more Elk than moose, a lot more elk...at least I sure did when I spent a few months in there.

The question is whether moose populations have crashed or is significantly lower as h47 implies!.

Elk have moved into the valleys and utilize the same general habitat (spreading like a bad weed so to speak). However, elk and moose have distinctly different foraging habits and forage preferences (as well habitat niche preferences) which allow the two to subsist together without one or the other competing for available food resources. There is very little overlap in competition between the two species. Elk and moose can coexist because each exploits a slightly different part of the environment. Moose and elk, inhibits or limits its own population more than it inhibits the populations of the other.

In one form, the competition between the two is among individuals rather than between individuals of different species. Which, along with habitat changes, we have seen a relatively rapid expansion of elk herds, yet moose are still around.

On the other hand, when we mix elk with sheep and mule deer on their winter range, you will find sheep, mule deer and elk on the same hill side directly competing for the same food resources. With elk gaining the upper hand, sometimes to the detriment of mule deer and sheep. But thats a whole other topic of discussion, particularly when predators are added to the equation.

Bison on the other hand might provide competition for moose should they get a good foothold in the Nevis. I recall Mike Hammet saying bison had a negative impact on moose and moose hunting in the main valley.

[BCrams]

which in turn will will raise the amount of calves , which in turn will raise the amount of predators which will lower the amount the calves ....

its a circle that Nature has been doing since before the dawn of time ...

why in the last 100 years (but a drop in the bucket of time) must we take it upon ourselves .... and why are we here in BC pretty much one of the few jurisdictions that thinks this is a good idea

Wow Mike ..... something sure has set you afire the last couple days.

A cool down swim might be in order for you :lol:

[hunter1947]

There is NO calf season in Redfern. Therefore, you can't blame ANYTHING happening with moose at Redfern on a calf season. ;) Well, maybe you can blame the LACK of a calf season and concentration on antler-restricted bulls for the LACK of moose you claim to be there H47. :p

I'm not going to blame it on no calf season like you said there is no calf season now ,but was there a calf season 40 years or 20 years ago ???.

I will tell all that there where no quads back 40 years ago and as I said in my last post almost every hunter has one now.

So if no calf season back then it all boils down to over hunting as for poor game management.

And no one can say its poor habitat ,I have a friend that still goes back there now and then and he said there is more habitat there now then when he and me hunted it back 40 years ago.

The excess with quads and hunters on them is what did the big damage to the moose population over the years.

Anyways you all know my opinion when it comes to harvesting calf's.

I have said enough on this calf thread I am not going to continue like a broken record I will not change my thoughts on the open calf season ,thank you all for your opinion I will not be putting any more post up on this thread ,you all have a nice day http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[hunter1947]

[quote=hunter1947;409250][quote=BCrams;409049][quote=hunter1947;409004]

I know one thing there sure aren't the moose there was 40 years ago in areas I used to hunt years back.
Quad excess have played a big roll on the decline of moose as well.

I don't know where you pull the numbers from, but there are more moose in British Columbia today than there were 40 years ago.

In the redfern lake area I used to see 80 moose a day 40 years ago now your lucky to see a handful why is that ????.

Read your post below .... the answer is because you were there when all the moose were out of the mountains in the wintering grounds. The moose are still there!! However, the season isn't in line to when you used to be able to hunt them on the winter range when they came down from the high side valleys / mountains! :lol:

Hunter1947 posted:


There was habitat to feed them then.

Habitat is still there. Go back in November / December and you'll see them in all the major valley bottoms like Nevis. Of course there will be added competition these days from elk and bison.

There should be more then enough habitat to feed the few moose that are in this area now what has changed ???.

What changed --- is the timing you were allowed to hunt them. As you mentioned - you went in there in November when the moose are down from the high country and hitting the winter range.

The way I see it is over hunted and access being a big part of the decline in moose and this goes for other area regions that are low in numbers as well and having a open season for calf's or two year olds is not helping this problem areas...

Can you tell me where these problem areas are? Where the decline in moose are? Can you corroborate your statement where open season for calf moose or two year olds are not helping? As GG would say - back up what you're saying.


I don't know where you are getting your numbers from BCrams on the moose population in the redfern lake area ,tell me this how come my old hunting partner has a hell of a time finding a bull in this area now ???.

As for years back my hunting partner used to get his bull down on the first day as for some of the others in our hunting party ???.

My old partner goes in there for the last week of Oct and might see a handful of moose on his 6 day hunt.

When you are out in the area hunting as you have been for years this tells you what kind of numbers are and are not in the area ,not paper work.

Years back we where in there a couple days latter then Oct 31 ,we where in there on Nov 2 and saw up to 50 to 80 moose on a days hunt sometimes I would see 10 bull moose all together in a herd ,not now.

The time of year as you stated that moose come out of the mountains has not changed in time ,when my friend is in there he is in there at the same time as back 40 years ago add on two days latter.

Seeing a dozen moose now on a 6 day hunt compared to 50 or more moose in one days hunting back then ??? something don't make sense here ???.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=BCrams;409272][quote=hunter1947;409250][quote=BCrams;409049]


I don't know where you are getting your numbers from BCrams on the moose population in the redfern lake area ,tell me this how come my old hunting partner has a hell of a time finding a bull in this area now ???.

As for years back he used to get his bull down as for others in the same day of there hunt ???

My old partner goes in there for the last week of Oct and might see a handful of moose on his 6 day hunt.

When you are out in the area hunting as you have been for years this tells you what kind of numbers are in the area not paper work.

Years back we where in there a couple days latter Nov 2 and saw up to 50 to 80 moose on a days hunt sometimes I would see 10 bull moose all together in a herd.

The time of year as you stated that moose come out of the mountains has not changed when my friend is in there he is in there at the same time as back 40 years ago.

Seeing a dozen moose now on a 6 day hunt compared to 50 or more moose in one days hunting back then ??? something don't make sense here ???.

How were the conditions back then as compared to now?? Cold?? Depth of snow??
Some years we get a normal winter. Other years we don't.

And you only lasted just over 1/2 an hour when you said you weren't going to post on this thread any more:wink:

SSS

[hunter1947]

[quote=hunter1947;409640][quote=BCrams;409272][quote=hunter1947;409250]

How were the conditions back then as compared to now?? Cold?? Depth of snow??
Some years we get a normal winter. Other years we don't.

And you only lasted just over 1/2 an hour when you said you weren't going to post on this thread any more:wink:

SSS

SSS we used to get -10 nights and just around the freezing mark for day time hi on the average.
Some years we would have to plank out trucks across the bog because the temperatures where to hi on the 31 of Oct we where looking at +1 at night and +6 for the hi.

3 4x4 with 3 winches on the front of each truck was the only way we could get in there when the ground was not frozen ,was hard work getting the trucks over this seismic road under these conditions..
We had some years where it was -30 below at nights and the hi was -10.

Pic below is on Nov 2 1972 ,37 years ago.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Picture_108.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=12822)

Nov 3 ,1971 -6 c day time hi. Sorry about the pic being blurry.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Picture_119.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=12823)

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Wow Mike ..... something sure has set you afire the last couple days.

A cool down swim might be in order for you :lol:

You might be right Greg ... non-the-less I fail to see how harvesting a great number of cows and calfs will not drop the population.

I seem to recall one winter it would seem on every other bus trip we would smoke a moose or have a near miss

[PGK]

You might be right Greg ... non-the-less I fail to see how harvesting a great number of cows and calfs will not drop the population.

I seem to recall one winter it would seem on every other bus trip we would smoke a moose or have a near miss

The idea is to drop the number of moose. That's why you are seeing increased cow LEHs and longer calf seasons in 7-16.

Normally, a 15 day calf GOS produces insignificant harvest to the moose population. That's really all there is to it...

[GoatGuy]

I don't know where you are getting your numbers from BCrams on the moose population in the redfern lake area ,tell me this how come my old hunting partner has a hell of a time finding a bull in this area now ???.

As for years back my hunting partner used to get his bull down on the first day as for some of the others in our hunting party ???.

My old partner goes in there for the last week of Oct and might see a handful of moose on his 6 day hunt.

When you are out in the area hunting as you have been for years this tells you what kind of numbers are and are not in the area ,not paper work.

Years back we where in there a couple days latter then Oct 31 ,we where in there on Nov 2 and saw up to 50 to 80 moose on a days hunt sometimes I would see 10 bull moose all together in a herd ,not now.

The time of year as you stated that moose come out of the mountains has not changed in time ,when my friend is in there he is in there at the same time as back 40 years ago add on two days latter.

Seeing a dozen moose now on a 6 day hunt compared to 50 or more moose in one days hunting back then ??? something don't make sense here ???.

One word: Wolves

Has nothing to do with hunter harvest especially now that they have that silly 10pt, tri-palm, 3 legged rule in that country.

You've got to split the male and female harvest up.

Unless you knock a moose bull:cow ratio to ~20:100 you don't have a sperm problem.

If you have a population problem you can look at habitat or predation.

I wish you guys would learn how to use the quotes properly!

[Bowzone_Mikey]

PGK .. I recall last year I was out in 7-15 and came across 3 cow/calf kill sites in one day (not far from the Kay Kay road start)

[hunter1947]

One word: Wolves

Has nothing to do with hunter harvest especially now that they have that silly 10pt, tri-palm, 3 legged rule in that country.

You've got to split the male and female harvest up.

Unless you knock a moose bull:cow ratio to ~20:100 you don't have a sperm problem.

If you have a population problem you can look at habitat or predation.

I wish you guys would learn how to use the quotes properly!

GG thats what you think ,thats your opinion ,not mine :lol:.

[GoatGuy]

GG thats what you think ,thats your opinion ,not mine :lol:.

It's not my opinion.

[PGK]

GG thats what you think ,thats your opinion ,not mine :lol:.

H47, nobody is giving their opinion here except for you. GG, BCrams and I have all tried to explain to you why moose are managed the way they are. We are not giving you our opinions, we are giving you the facts. If when given the facts, you still don't want to believe what we are saying, that's fine. Everyone forms their opinions based on their experiences.

Unfortunately, it becomes all the more clear to me every day that the more I learn, the less I know. However, I would never have been able to tie my bush experiences together without my education.
Without education, experience is nothing but smoke and suspicions.

[hunter1947]

H47, nobody is giving their opinion here except for you. GG, BCrams and I have all tried to explain to you why moose are managed the way they are. We are not giving you our opinions, we are giving you the facts. If when given the facts, you still don't want to believe what we are saying, that's fine. Everyone forms their opinions based on their experiences.

Unfortunately, it becomes all the more clear to me every day that the more I learn, the less I know. However, I would never have been able to tie my bush experiences together without my education.
Without education, experience is nothing but smoke and suspicions.

Well then if not your opinion or others the way the moose are managed by the management is wrong.
I am not on the same terms as them the management the way I see it.

Like I said before leave the one and two year olds to grow up http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[GoatGuy]

Well then if not your opinion or others the way the moose are managed by the management is wrong.
I am not on the same terms as them the management the way I see it.

Like I said before leave the one and two year olds to grow up http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

So you want less moose hunting opportunity?

[hunter1947]

So you want less moose hunting opportunity?

Nope ,want more http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[BCrams]

Nope ,want more http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

He's out to lunch GG. No matter what we put in front of him, all the science in the world isn't going to convince him. His opinion / thoughts on the matter are not going to change. No use flogging a dead horse.

[Fisher-Dude]

H47, if I email you "Toward an Improved Moose Management Strategy" by Ecodomain Consulting, will you read it?

[BCrams]

Thats the paper I made reference to but he showed no interest in wanting to read it or ask for it.

Maybe he'll read it and pay attention in particular to 7a moose management compared to other models in other jurisdictions.

[hunter1947]

He's out to lunch GG. No matter what we put in front of him, all the science in the world isn't going to convince him. His opinion / thoughts on the matter are not going to change. No use flogging a dead horse.


You got that right :lol:.

[hunter1947]

H47, if I email you "Toward an Improved Moose Management Strategy" by Ecodomain Consulting, will you read it?

Fisher I will look if sent ,I am not a dead old horse yet and I can still drink water from the river to ,LOL http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

My email address is hunter1947@hotmail.com Thanks Wayne http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[Fisher-Dude]

On its way. Happy reading!

[kgriz]

Are you serious??? The amount of times I have seen "science" take a backseat to money/politics in the management of BC's resources is eye-openning.......If you just read this literature and understand it and be "smart" you'll change your mind...hah. Lots of people, including some policy makers I'm sure, don't even believe in EVOLUTION let alone some of these studies. I can't wait to see the "science" of the changes to the wildlife act coming to all of us soon.....will be another great leap ahead I'm sure.

[PGK]

Are you serious??? The amount of times I have seen "science" take a backseat to money/politics in the management of BC's resources is eye-openning.......If you just read this literature and understand it and be "smart" you'll change your mind...hah. Lots of people, including some policy makers I'm sure, don't even believe in EVOLUTION let alone some of these studies. I can't wait to see the "science" of the changes to the wildlife act coming to all of us soon.....will be another great leap ahead I'm sure.

A lot of the literature is very readable if you skip the stats and grab hold of the main points they are making.

The problem with wildlife management in the last 5-10 years is MPB. We were getting a pretty good handle on sustainable harvesting, leaving wildlife corridors and managing for important species. The beetle wiped all those efforts away when we reverted back to 'closest to the mill' type harvesting. It's not rocket science to look at the land north of Williams Lake and see the impacts of what we did. It's brutal. And then we slam into recession and MoE's operational budget gets slashed to zero.....anyway, enough ranting.
It's too bad that talking with H1947 is like talking to an anti-hunter. They just don't get it!

[kgriz]

I'm not saying that the liturature isn't readable or uncorrect for that matter.....I just find that quite a few people on this site think that explaining the science of the management of wildlife, if done enough times, will change the minds of a person. Not going to happen, and for that matter doesn't happen in forestry and doesn't happen in wildlife, especially in gov't. Everybody is an expert these days....and in that light what is about the comment about "closest to the Mill"; anybody who does any work with Appraisals knows that most of the time the wood closest to the Mills is left due to the fact that its the most expensive...pay attention to some mills that are away from city limits wherever you may be and you'll notice the trees are usually standing nearby...the only way they ever get cut is by somebody with a salvage permit or perhaps a non-renewable licence of some sort. As for the "devastating beetles". They are only devastating to our plans for the landscape...the only reason they hit so hard is that we've been suppressing the fires for the last 50 years and ended up with a homogeneous mature pine stand; trees die like everthing else, just usually not all at once on such a grand scale. Everybody complains about the wolves in a similar manner...wolves don't "hurt" anything but the animals "we" want to hunt or save....left alone they would balance each other out obviously.
Sadly, in the end the best we can do is prospone the inevitable for as long as we can when it comes to hunting and fishing.......my buddy attended a shipping conference the other day that stated that within 10 years China will have more kids in elementary school than the population of the United States......add the rest of the eastern world to that and one can see what is to happen to the remaining 10% of catchable fish in the ocean and the wildlife remaining. Dismal sure, but sooner or later the people in the over populated areas are obviously going to migrate into the less populated and the resources will be heavily impacted if not completely used up.

[GoatGuy]

I'm not saying that the liturature isn't readable or uncorrect for that matter.....I just find that quite a few people on this site think that explaining the science of the management of wildlife, if done enough times, will change the minds of a person. Not going to happen, and for that matter doesn't happen in forestry and doesn't happen in wildlife, especially in gov't.

It isn't the government that's holding a lot of this stuff back right now it's hunters. There have been several opportunities practically handed to hunters on a platter by the MoE in the last couple of years - best answer hunters can come up with is "NO".

For some reason hunters would rather see wildlife die of starvation and/or from predators, both the 4 legged and 4 wheeled kind than put them in the freezer.

Hardcore researchers who have deer, moose, elk, grizzly, cougars, wolverines collared tell hunters "here is exactly what is going on in you backyard". They have years of hard data that shows what's going on and where opportunity lies. Hunters ride around in the truck for a couple weekends and say "I don't believe you" - it's awesome.

"Welcome to wildlife management" they say with a chuckle. :roll:


Unfortunately the only way is to put more info in front of hunters until such a point where the people actually read this stuff and go "wow, this makes sense to me."

[kgriz]

For the most part GoatGuy I agree with you, I just meant that trying to force-feed people facts is usually not an effective means to an end.

[KevinB]

Hardcore researchers who have deer, moose, elk, grizzly, cougars, wolverines collared tell hunters "here is exactly what is going on in you backyard". They have years of hard data that shows what's going on and where opportunity lies. Hunters ride around in the truck for a couple weekends and say "I don't believe you" - it's awesome.

Unfortunately the only way is to put more info in front of hunters until such a point where the people actually read this stuff and go "wow, this makes sense to me."


This is true for a lot of things other than wildlife management. People tend to believe only what they can see and touch and build a picture of the world based on that - which was probably a pretty handy trait during the last 5 million year of evolution.

I do agree that hunters are probably worse than average.

I don't understand how my computer works, but if it breaks, I'll take it to a tech and trust them to fix it. If I want to fix it myself, I'm going to make sure I learn something before I try.

I don't understand how my transmission works, but I'll trust a mechanic to fix it when it breaks. If I want to fix it myself, I know I have to learn a lot more than just how to drive a car.

I don't understand how electricity works, but I blindly trust an electrician to wire up my house without burning it down. If I want to install a new light switch on my own, I'm going to read a book or two first. Just because I've used a lot of light switches doesn't mean I can install one properly.


I don't know much or anything about wildlife management, but I'll trust a trained and experienced biologist to set good policy....Oh no, wait, I'm a hunter, I can't do that! I have to tell them how to do it because I hunt at deer and elk and moose and therefore I must know way more about it!

[PGK]

Your last statement shouldn't be wholly in jest. Everyone's opinions are formed via their own experiences. A good wildlife manager takes all the opinions he hears into consideration and weighs them against the science. Often the two may conflict, as in H47's case. But in this case, he is unwilling to be educated.

[hunter1947]

Your last statement shouldn't be wholly in jest. Everyone's opinions are formed via their own experiences. A good wildlife manager takes all the opinions he hears into consideration and weighs them against the science. Often the two may conflict, as in H47's case. But in this case, he is unwilling to be educated.


You have to take a hole and put it all together ,then find out what the end results are ,habitat ,quad excess ,snowmobiles excess ,fly in trips ,logged out areas makes it opern to harvest more moose etc ,water pollution ,to long of a season ,to many calf's shot ,to many cows shot ,to many bulls shot ,bull to cow ratio ,winter kills .predator kills ,guided alien hunts ,the biologist don't have much left to work with after all this has accrued after one year or more go by.

Tell me this how can the wildlife branch keep tabs on the amount of moose that have been shot in a calender year ,I have not got any moose questioners for years ,but I have killed 2 in the last 5 years I guess the biologist think there are two more moose out there that I shoot ????

What about all others that don't get a questionnaire return card for GOS for moose ..

The wildlife branch dropped the tooth card return years ago and they don't have the revenue to keep on top of researches on lots of species.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif :lol:.

[PGK]

Wayne, I am glad you have all the answers. We tried explaining it to you. You choose to be ignorant.

[6616]

Compulsory Inspection data is very accurate and firm data. Harvest reports are developed in region and sent to HQ.

I've been told the Compulsory Reporting system has partially collapsed and the data's not much good anymore.

GOS data is gathered by sending out a fixed number of questionaires for each GMZ and the results interpolated using the success rates learned from returned questionaires. They tell me that this data is surprizingly accurate, although not firm right down to each individual harvest, it provides decent numbers and very good trend data. These harvest reports are developed in Victoria and unfortunatelly don't get back to region until a year later.

[hunter1947]

Wayne, I am glad you have all the answers. We tried explaining it to you. You choose to be ignorant.


You are saying that I have all the answers not me.

I'm going by what I have seen over the years out there in the bush.

For one insidence take a look at the LEH for moose in region 4-4 there used to be 12 bulls allowed to be harvest ,now there is only one bull LEH draw in that area from 2008.

What happened there ??? I guessing the biologists never did there home work I have been banging heads with the wildlife branch for years telling them them about my concerns on allowing to many bull LEH tags allowed in region 4-4 ,12 LEH tags where way to many in the past ,now look at it http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[hunter1947]

Compulsory Inspection data is very accurate and firm data. Harvest reports are developed in region and sent to HQ.

I've been told the Compulsory Reporting system has partially collapsed and the data's not much good anymore.

GOS data is gathered by sending out a fixed number of questionaires for each GMZ and the results interpolated using the success rates learned from returned questionaires. They tell me that this data is surprizingly accurate, although not firm right down to each individual harvest, it provides decent numbers and very good trend data. These harvest reports are developed in Victoria and unfortunatelly don't get back to region until a year later.

Andy where did my questionnaire get to over the last 5 years for moose and I am one of them ,what about others that are on the same boat as me ???.

[PGK]

Wayne, nobody at MoE cares that you killed 2 bull moose in the last five years. I believe it was BCrams who told you why. Bulls are on LEH so that the number harvested will always stay low enough to ensure a great proportion of the cows are bred. As long as there are enough bulls to breed the cows, there will never be an issue with bull harvest. Therefore, they know how many tags go out, they have a rough idea of success, you killed your moose, you're happy, but then you get mad because they didn't ask you if you killed a moose, so you assume they are idiots! They don't need to know that you killed two bulls in five years! It's insignificant to moose management! But you won't listen, we're trying to help you 'get it'

[horshur]

It isn't the government that's holding a lot of this stuff back right now it's hunters. There have been several opportunities practically handed to hunters on a platter by the MoE in the last couple of years - best answer hunters can come up with is "NO".

For some reason hunters would rather see wildlife die of starvation and/or from predators, both the 4 legged and 4 wheeled kind than put them in the freezer.

Hardcore researchers who have deer, moose, elk, grizzly, cougars, wolverines collared tell hunters "here is exactly what is going on in you backyard". They have years of hard data that shows what's going on and where opportunity lies. Hunters ride around in the truck for a couple weekends and say "I don't believe you" - it's awesome.

"Welcome to wildlife management" they say with a chuckle. :roll:


Unfortunately the only way is to put more info in front of hunters until such a point where the people actually read this stuff and go "wow, this makes sense to me."

there has not been more info put in front of people. Where is is??

[hunter1947]

Wayne, nobody at MoE cares that you killed 2 bull moose in the last five years. I believe it was BCrams who told you why. Bulls are on LEH so that the number harvested will always stay low enough to ensure a great proportion of the cows are bred. As long as there are enough bulls to breed the cows, there will never be an issue with bull harvest. Therefore, they know how many tags go out, they have a rough idea of success, you killed your moose, you're happy, but then you get mad because they didn't ask you if you killed a moose, so you assume they are idiots! They don't need to know that you killed two bulls in five years! It's insignificant to moose management! But you won't listen, we're trying to help you 'get it'

If I killed two bulls ,what about the hundreds more that killed a bull and no report on kill has been done.???.

There are not enough bulls to service the cows in this region I stated in my last post ,all I see is cows and very few bulls.

The ratio is way out of whack on what I have seen in this region.

I used to see 20 bull moose on a two week hunt ,now I see 4 on a 5 week hunt if I am lucky ,miss management is what caused this to happen ,to many LEH authorizations is one of the big factors in the decline moose population in 4-4..

It makes sense to me when a farmer wants his cow peregrinated he does not take the bull away after he has peregrinated a few ,he lets the bull peregrinate all if he can and it makes sense to me if there are more bulls there will be more cows that will get peregrinated.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If I killed two bulls ,what about the hundreds more that killed a bull and no report on kill has been done.???.

There are not enough bulls to service the cows in this region I stated in my last post ,all I see is cows and very few bulls.

The ratio is way out of whack on what I have seen in this region.

I used to see 20 bull moose on a two week hunt ,now I see 4 on a 5 week hunt if I am lucky ,miss management is what caused this to happen ,to many LEH authorizations is one of the big factors in the decline moose population in 4-4..

It makes sense to me when a farmer wants his cow peregrinated he does not take the bull away after he has peregrinated a few ,he lets the bull peregrinate all if he can and it makes sense to me if there are more bulls there will be more cows that will get peregrinated.

Wayne...Management strategies vary between Reg 4 and 7A. The calf season in question has to do with 7A and the harvest strategies there.

7A is the focus here.

Too much smoke in the air complicates things.

Focus;)

SSS

[hunter1947]

Wayne...Management strategies vary between Reg 4 and 7A. The calf season in question has to do with 7A and the harvest strategies there.

7A is the focus here.

Too much smoke in the air complicates things.

Focus;)

SSS


SSS This is not just happening in region 4-4 ,lots is happening in all regions.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

SSS This is not just happening in region 4-4 ,lots is happening in all regions.

And how are the predator numbers in the area of Reg 4 that you are famliar with???

SSS

[PGK]

SSS, we're beyond the calf season. If someone wants to split this off, then fine. But H47 should understand this, at least in a basic sense.

Wayne. Do you understand LEH?? A number of LEH tags are given out per area. Not all of them get filled. Ever have an LEH and not fill it? Sure you have, we all have. Got it?
The number of LEH that are given out are based on a certain percentage of success. Not everyone fills an LEH. Therefore, a manager sets the number of LEH knowing that less than 80% will be filled (example). So if he wants 80 moose killed, he may authorize 100 LEH, hoping that 80 bulls will be killed. If you and your buddy kill two of those moose, it doesn't really matter that they are 'reported' in a hunter survey form. He knows that less moose were killed than the LEH he allocated.

The fact that you are not seeing bulls has very little to do with the actual number of bulls in the bush. I never saw any buck mule deer in region 7-15 this year, am I to assume that there are no buck mule deer? Even if the population keeps going up!? How do you KNOW the ratio is out of whack? Have you done helicopter surveys? Have you interviewed every hunter in the bush? Or do you simply assume that since you went there for ten days, saw one bull and ten cows, that the bull:cow ratio is 1:10 ???

Everyone needs to stop thinking about this like a frickin farming operation! Moose are not cattle! A mature bull moose will screw as many cows as possible, and it's fairly irrelevant until you start seeing less calves, and calves being born later than normal, indicating that not all the cows are being bred until the second or third estrus. Does it happen? Yes. But not on a large scale.

H47, have you been in these areas in the spring to determine if the calves are being born later than normal? Are the cows in estrus well into november or even december??

I would stick my neck out and say that there is not a single area of this province in which there is a shortage of bull moose right now!

[Fisher-Dude]

For one insidence take a look at the LEH for moose in region 4-4 there used to be 12 bulls allowed to be harvest ,now there is only one bull LEH draw in that area from 2008.

What happened there ??? I guessing the biologists never did there home work I have been banging heads with the wildlife branch for years telling them them about my concerns on allowing to many bull LEH tags allowed in region 4-4 ,12 LEH tags where way to many in the past ,now look at it http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

Yeah, well for 30 years or more, with twice the number of guys out hunting as we have now, it was on GOS any bull, and there were always lots of moose around. You really think 12 LEH tags in hundreds of square kilometers makes any difference? Not a friggin' chance!

[GoatGuy]

If I killed two bulls ,what about the hundreds more that killed a bull and no report on kill has been done.???.

There are not enough bulls to service the cows in this region I stated in my last post ,all I see is cows and very few bulls.

The ratio is way out of whack on what I have seen in this region.

I used to see 20 bull moose on a two week hunt ,now I see 4 on a 5 week hunt if I am lucky ,miss management is what caused this to happen ,to many LEH authorizations is one of the big factors in the decline moose population in 4-4..

It makes sense to me when a farmer wants his cow peregrinated he does not take the bull away after he has peregrinated a few ,he lets the bull peregrinate all if he can and it makes sense to me if there are more bulls there will be more cows that will get peregrinated.

how many bulls and how many cows?

[hunter1947]

Yeah, well for 30 years or more, with twice the number of guys out hunting as we have now, it was on GOS any bull, and there were always lots of moose around. You really think 12 LEH tags in hundreds of square kilometers makes any difference? Not a friggin' chance!

I'm just using 4-4 for one problem area ,what about the other regions where there is LEH season for moose ,look back on what I stated above in my past post ,you no what I am talking about FD..

[hunter1947]

SSS, we're beyond the calf season. If someone wants to split this off, then fine. But H47 should understand this, at least in a basic sense.

Wayne. Do you understand LEH?? A number of LEH tags are given out per area. Not all of them get filled. Ever have an LEH and not fill it? Sure you have, we all have. Got it?
The number of LEH that are given out are based on a certain percentage of success. Not everyone fills an LEH. Therefore, a manager sets the number of LEH knowing that less than 80% will be filled (example). So if he wants 80 moose killed, he may authorize 100 LEH, hoping that 80 bulls will be killed. If you and your buddy kill two of those moose, it doesn't really matter that they are 'reported' in a hunter survey form. He knows that less moose were killed than the LEH he allocated.

The fact that you are not seeing bulls has very little to do with the actual number of bulls in the bush. I never saw any buck mule deer in region 7-15 this year, am I to assume that there are no buck mule deer? Even if the population keeps going up!? How do you KNOW the ratio is out of whack? Have you done helicopter surveys? Have you interviewed every hunter in the bush? Or do you simply assume that since you went there for ten days, saw one bull and ten cows, that the bull:cow ratio is 1:10 ???

Everyone needs to stop thinking about this like a frickin farming operation! Moose are not cattle! A mature bull moose will screw as many cows as possible, and it's fairly irrelevant until you start seeing less calves, and calves being born later than normal, indicating that not all the cows are being bred until the second or third estrus. Does it happen? Yes. But not on a large scale.

H47, have you been in these areas in the spring to determine if the calves are being born later than normal? Are the cows in estrus well into november or even december??

I would stick my neck out and say that there is not a single area of this province in which there is a shortage of bull moose right now!

Well I hate to say it but your wrong ,4-4 is short on the moose population ,if not then why did the management cut it back to 1 bull moose from 12 ,they had 12 authorizations for years .

As for what I have seen over the years ,moose have decline in this one area big time.

[PGK]

Oh
My
God

How am I ''wrong'' ..... did you even read what I wrote?

Apparently, 12 authorizations was too many. I don't want to guess why. I don't know anything about 4-4. If it has one LEH ermit, my suspicion is that the moose population is really, really low. In the real world, a change from 12 LEH to one LEH is insignificant.

[hunter1947]

Oh
My
God

How am I ''wrong'' ..... did you even read what I wrote?

Apparently, 12 authorizations was too many. I don't want to guess why. I don't know anything about 4-4. If it has one LEH ermit, my suspicion is that the moose population is really, really low.


Ya to do with over hunting and it was not low in population 10 years ago ,I am going by what I have seen in this region over 42 years of hunting it..

Years of being in the field looking and observing ,not sitting behind a desk looking at numbers.

[PGK]

Ya to do with over hunting and it was not low in poulation 10 years ago ,I am going by what I have seen in this region over 42 years of hunting it..

42 years x 10 days a season Wayne. 420 days. That's barely a year and a bit. How can you assume you know more than someone who has lived there their entire life??

[GoatGuy]

Ya to do with over hunting and it was not low in population 10 years ago ,I am going by what I have seen in this region over 42 years of hunting it..

Years of being in the field looking and observing ,not sitting behind a desk looking at numbers.

probably winter kill in 96/97 same as everything else. Average harvest for the past 15 years around 5 bulls/year. nothing to get excited about. you're associating over-hunting with population problems. No cow/calf harvest (at least reported). Doubt a couple of bulls/year is making or breaking the population.

[ultramagbob]

LOL
I love it.I think alot of people suffer from head trauma.My opinion is shooting the young of the year is a stupid practice.JMO

[hunter1947]

42 years x 10 days a season Wayne. 420 days. That's barely a year and a bit. How can you assume you know more than someone who has lived there their entire life??

Reason being is that I cover more ground and areas then anyone could have imagined ,I'm slowing down in my older yeas now but covers many miles on my hunts for elk.

What I have seen tells me the story ,seeing 20 bulls in two weeks 10 years ago compared to seeing 4 bulls in five weeks in 2008 tells me all..

On the average in the last 5 years when hunting in this region I have only seen 3 bull moose hunting for two weeks.

[GoatGuy]

Reason being is that I cover more ground and areas then anyone could have mangined ,I'm slowing down in my older yeas now but covers many miles on my hunts for elk.

What I have seen tells me the story ,seeing 20 bulls in two weeks 10 years ago compared to seeing 4 bulls in five weeks in 2008 tells me all..

On the average in the last 5 years when hunting in this region I have only seen 3 bull moose hunting for two weeks.

how many cows?

[hunter1947]

how many cows?


12 cow moose for two week hunt and sometimes more.

As we know a bull can only hang onto 1 or 2 cows during the rut ,the rest are fair game.
So if I saw 3 bulls in two weeks that leaves 9 cows unattended to get peregrinated.

This tells me that the bull to cow ratio is way out of whack.

As you know Bull moose are not like elk as for elk a bull will sometimes have 30 cows with him during the rut.

[GoatGuy]

12 cow moose for two week hunt.

As we know a bull can only hang onto 1 or 2 cows during the rut ,the rest are fair game.
So if I saw 3 bulls in two weeks that leaves 9 cows unattended to get peregrinated.

This tells me that the bull to cow ratio is way out of whack.

Provincial bull:cow ratio target is 30:100 and you can go lower without any problems. Alaska does it regularly. There's no issue with 25:100 (or 3/12).

If we take your observations as a representative sample there's likely no problem with the bull:cow ratio. Something else on the go there.

[PGK]

H47

Has it EVER crossed your mind that someone has more experience than you? Say, the government biologist!? Who is older than you, and has a hell of a lot more experience than you! Holy crap!

PGK out.....I think those willing to learn have learned. Any effort beyond that is wasted. And you know it's time to bug out when BCrams has given up :lol:

[ultramagbob]

H47

Has it EVER crossed your mind that someone has more experience than you? Say, the government biologist!? Who is older than you, and has a hell of a lot more experience than you! Holy crap!

PGK out.....I think those willing to learn have learned. Any effort beyond that is wasted. And you know it's time to bug out when BCrams has given up :lol:


LOL Biologist are the cause for most of the problems when it comes to wildlife management

[hunter1947]

H47

Has it EVER crossed your mind that someone has more experience than you? Say, the government biologist!? Who is older than you, and has a hell of a lot more experience than you! Holy crap!

PGK out.....I think those willing to learn have learned. Any effort beyond that is wasted. And you know it's time to bug out when BCrams has given up :lol:

PGK Biologist are not always right you no http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[hunter1947]

I just want to take this moment to thank all that give there thoughts to to calf season issue ,I won't be talking about this issue any longer ,thanks all ,Hunter 47 http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif.

[Bowtime]

I strongly oppose the calf hunt. I know I couldn't shoot one. I really have a hard time understanding why someone would. I think it makes alot more sense to let them live for another year and have 200-300 more pounds of meat.

[6616]

Andy where did my questionnaire get to over the last 5 years for moose and I am one of them ,what about others that are on the same boat as me ???.

Only about 15 0r 20 % of the hunters get questionaires for each species. WLB calculated succcess rates and interpolates the rest. They feel it's reasonably useful data especially considering the low cast.

[6616]

SSS This is not just happening in region 4-4 ,lots is happening in all regions.


I just looked up the data on 4-04, including the population estimates, harvest reports and LEH numbers/success rates.

The population estimate in 4-04 has dropped from 185 to 57 over the last ten years. That means LEH opportunity has also dropped from 12 authorizations to 1. When there were 12 authorizations the average harvest was 2.8 moose per year, or in other words 28 bulls have been shot down there in the last ten years. What happened to the other 100 moose?

What caused this rapid decline? It could be wolves, it could be habitat related, it could be like SSS says that due to habitat suitability the population just couldn't recover from the die-off in '96/97, it might be that the population estimates they used 10 years ago were just plain wrong.
I won't even venture a guess, but it appears really doubtful that it was over-harvest considering an average harvest rate of only 2.8 bulls and no cows. It would appear that the bull harvest was insufficient to a precipitate such a major population decline, but for whatever reason the population decline H47 eludes to has definitely occurred.

This is not a widespread problem in region 4,,,, 4-04 was one of only a few MUs that showed any decline at all and no other MU showed a major decline like 4-04 did. 4-04 is on MOE's highest priority list for an intensive population survey in the near future.

All other MU's showed increases and some had remarkable increases. Some have bull/cow ratios as high as 80/100 cows and calf ratios as high as 55/100 cows. In other words moose are doing very well in Region 4 all things considered.