Aging Sheep

[smoke-eater]

Since my last question was on a thread that was locked Ill ask it again.

[BCrams]

I still seem to be a little confused. There was a post stating that a stone ram that was heavily broomed on both sides with only 7 visible anuli and is not full curl But is deffinitly older because of its mass where its broomed is illegal?????

It may be a legal ram.

Then again, as many have learned, you're treading a fine line as demonstrated with a Spences ram taken this past year.

What happens if the horn is 'broken' off further back and only 6 rings are visible? Are guys going to assume 2 years worth of horn is broken off and shoot it? Then there's the issue of counting rings to begin with ..... not a whole lot of guys are able to effectivly and accuratly count rings in the field .....

What happens if there's a big broomed ram - a fellow who knows what he's counting and looking at figures it is still an under 8 yr ram. Whereas you get some newer guy who's so excited at the prospect of shooting a ram decides there are already 7 or 8 rings (counting false annuli) and shoots the ram......which in turn ends up being illegal.

Once again, counting rings isn't something I would advocate guys to do afield.

My question is..... Will they just not keep the ram until they age a tooth and return it to the shooter once it is deemed to be 8 plus years old by the age of the tooth???

They do not collect the tooth at this time.


.................

[budismyhorse]

All I can do is tell you what SEVERAL CO's have told me......since I have asked that question SPECIFICALLY in the past.

the response is the same :

If it does NOT have 8 Countable rings ON THE HORN...it is an illegal sheep.

7 and broomed back is NOT legal.

I've always thought that was strange because the Regs (page 5, 2008-2009) state : "8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth......"

doesn't actually state "8 on the horn" leaving it open to interpretation (by the Regional Manager) in my opinion.

[bighornbob]

Since my last question was on a thread that was locked Ill ask it again.

Now Ive gone back and read all the threads I can find on sheep and aging them and whats legal and whats not......

I still seem to be a little confused. There was a post stating that a stone ram that was heavily broomed on both sides with only 7 visible anuli and is not full curl But is deffinitly older because of its mass where its broomed is illegal?????

My question is..... Will they just not keep the ram until they age a tooth and return it to the shooter once it is deemed to be 8 plus years old by the age of the tooth???

Nope they only age by horn annuli. They do not send in teeth. If you decide to fight it in court a tooth will proabbly be sent away. Its too costly to send a tooth off to get aged.

Most inspectors will only count annuli that are present, they do not try and interpret how much has broomed off. So if the ram has only 7 annuli it will probably be confiscated regardless of the amount of brooming.

You have to remember what you consider heavily broomed may not be considered that by another person.

If you are new to sheep hunting or are unsure in your aging ability I would not shoot a ram unless it had 10 annuli or whose horn tips go past the nose.

BHB

[budismyhorse]

I'm sure the CO's rule I have been told, like BHB has stated, is there to ensure a conservative approach......which I agree with absolutely.

[mark]

[quote=bighornbob;405269]Nope they only age by horn annuli. They do not send in teeth. If you decide to fight it in court a tooth will proabbly be sent away. Its too costly to send a tooth off to get aged.

Costly???? Its only $20 for a deer toothe! Just did a mule deer and had my info back in about 6 weeks! Seems stupid not to IMO, alot cheaper than a court case I bet, and wastes no-ones time! Seems like a no brainer to me!

[Bighorn hunter]

I've also heard about two teeth from the same animal coming back with different ages.So how good can that system be?So what if a few old rams that have broomed off a year or two can't be taken.A truely old ram, say over 10, is quite unlikely to broom back to not haveing 8 rings to count.


Just my 2 bits

[6616]

I don't think aging by tooth is any more accurate or decisive then aging by horn annuli. That's the only way they can determine age with antlered animals, but I believe they consider aging horned animals by horn annuli just as accurate as aging by tooth annuli. Of course in that case it's aging by horn annuli by an expert with the horns in his hands, and is much different then aging by a novice (perhaps) in the field. The advice given above to only shoot on horn length is very good and sound advice.

[PGK]

So since my question on the other thread got zapped,

Even if a sheep has 10 visible rings and is not full curl, the regulations state that you should not shoot based on horn annuli. So if you shoot a sheep based on horn annuli, aren't you in contradiction with the regs?

Regardless of the answer, I won't be shooting at any sheep that isn't WELL over the bridge of the nose.

[goatdancer]

All I can do is tell you what SEVERAL CO's have told me......since I have asked that question SPECIFICALLY in the past.

the response is the same :

If it does NOT have 8 Countable rings ON THE HORN...it is an illegal sheep.

7 and broomed back is NOT legal.

I've always thought that was strange because the Regs (page 5, 2008-2009) state : "8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth......"

doesn't actually state "8 on the horn" leaving it open to interpretation (by the Regional Manager) in my opinion.

If it doesn't have "8 on the horn" how can it be "8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth"? No 8 on the horn, no evidence.

[budismyhorse]

"Horn Growth" can be interpreted......as the battle that raged on this site regarding the Spences Ram Confiscation.

One Member was arguing that the ram in question has evidence of yearly horn growth that indicated the ram had reached the age of 8.......

however, the Regional designate that took the ram away stated that ram had evidence of yearly horn growth as the age of 7.

the interpretation was not how many rings where on the horn....but how much had been broomed off. Clear as mud?

In my opinion all they would have to do is put in the regs, "8 rings ON the Horn" and the question would go away..... but then fellas wouldn't be able to shoot rams like that and get them passed blah blah blah.

[riflebuilder]

if in doubt don't shoot, it is better to let the ram walk than to shoot an underage ram. I have had a fewsqueakers that were so close I wanted to shoot them. I let them pass and they were shot by two other guys. One was legal the other short. Looking at the two of them you would swear they were bookends. the one was short by the width of the square the other legal by the width of the square. way better to be sur than to have a ram taken away.

[PGK]

Don't shoot based on age. It's just that simple in my eyes.

[budismyhorse]

if in doubt don't shoot, it is better to let the ram walk than to shoot an underage ram. I have had a fewsqueakers that were so close I wanted to shoot them. I let them pass and they were shot by two other guys. One was legal the other short. Looking at the two of them you would swear they were bookends. the one was short by the width of the square the other legal by the width of the square. way better to be sur than to have a ram taken away.

attaboy RB, let em walk.

After the trigger pull on a borderline sheep, imagine the feeling of dread all the way up to the inspection and impending confiscation.....not worth it!!!

I let a borderline dall's in the tat walk only to see the same sheep on the outfitters website that winter! Same glacier/basin in the background......but whatever. I wasn't taking the chance.

[budismyhorse]

Im just saying even an inspector holding a ram in his hands F@$@ed it up! shouldnt they do a tooth aging as well on any sheep that are close?


6616 answered this properly I feel.

[guest]

It is very hard to pull the trigger on a Ram, broomed heavy and short of full curl even when seeing 8 or more annuli. As many have discussed, judging and counting 8 in the field is tough, false rings, lighting, distance, not the perfect view. Lots of factors, including one of the most influential, excitement of harvesting your first.
There are some guys out there that have taken some fantastic Rams short of F/C and 10, 11, and 12 years even older. They are heavy, dropped low along jaw lines, even swing outward.
The responsibility lies with the hunter.
For any one looking at tagging your first Ram and wanting to shoot, if he's short of F/C I strongly advise against it. A guy needs to view a ton of sheep to be able to feel comfortable with shooting a Ram that is short of F/C.
CT

[bridger]

So since my question on the other thread got zapped,

Even if a sheep has 10 visible rings and is not full curl, the regulations state that you should not shoot based on horn annuli. So if you shoot a sheep based on horn annuli, aren't you in contradiction with the regs?

Regardless of the answer, I won't be shooting at any sheep that isn't WELL over the bridge of the nose.

that advice in the synopsis is there because most sheep hunters have difficulty in determining accurate annuli, having said that if the ram has 8+ definate growth rings he is legal regardless of his curl. Unless you are a very experienced sheep hunter forget about annuli and rely on horn length when taking a ram. I shot a ram in the Yukon this year my guide stated definately he was 9 plus a full curl. I thought 8 yrs and full curl . the co said 7 yrs and full curl so there you go, pay your money and take your chances on age.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

From the regulations..........."As evidenced by true horn annuli by the regional manager"

If it the regulation was supposed to mean that the ram has to have 8 visible annuli on the horn then it should say so. Plain and simple.

The quote above, IMO, is meant to leave it open to interpretation by an experienced person on aging sheep.

If the contracted inspector can not see 8 visible annuli then it is supposed to be automatically turned over to the regional manager. The ram is not automatically confiscated and deemed "illegal". That's left up to the regional manager.

SSS

[boxhitch]

smoke-e, this is also clouded by the fact that a tooth is not required for the CI. When travelling light , they are usually left on the mountain, so are not available for inspection. The skull gets chopped to be able to clean it properly.

[Slee]

Does any one have a pic they could pm me of the horn jig used for measuring sheep?

thanks

[6616]

Does any one have a pic they could pm me of the horn jig used for measuring sheep?

thanks

There are some crappy pictures in this article

http://media.nwsgc.org/proceedings/NWSGC-1982/1982-Merchant%20et%20al.pdf

[eastkoot]

So, take me to court and PROVE that this ram is not 8 years old.. Pretend it doesn't go over the nose for a second!! I have taken the liberty of removing a tooth and although I don't see 8 annuli, because you have charged me with shooting an underaged ram, it is up to you to prove it is underaged.. If I present a tooth, I would think it is your resposibility to prove otherwise??? Or, allow me to take the tooth to be aged. My due dillegence is completed. Now it's up to whom ever to prove otherwise??http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm180/duramaxx/P1030004.jpg

[BCRiverBoater]

I wouldn't expect any less confusion with the teeth either. I know a group that shot 2 elk a few years ago when you were to send in the incisor tooth. They forgot to pull the teeth on the first elk so they pulled 2 out of the second elk. They sent the 2 teeth out of the same elk in for each tag and elk shot. The results came back different by 3 years. Go figure.

[Slee]

An email response to the sheep regs from last year......


Hello Mr. Slee

Thanks for your letter dated February 2008, regarding the regulations for a full curl sheep. Your inquiry has been forwarded to me for response.

During a full curl season, if you shoot a ram that is not full curl and does not have 8 annuli, this is not a legal ram and will be confiscated, regardless of body mass. This is why we do not want hunters to age sheep by annuli before firing, but to study their sheep and ensure that it is a full curl to avoid problems down the road. If a ram is taken to a contracted inspector and its legality is in question, the ram will then be referred to a regional biologist or conservation officer for verification. The decision of the regional biologist or conservation officer is subject to appeal if the hunter disagrees with their conclusions. Contracted inspectors will not use teeth to age sheep, biologists and conservation officers will not use teeth to age sheep, it is remotely possible, but unlikely, that a tooth may be used in an appeal process. The Wildlife Act specifically states that sheep age is determined by annuli. Below are the relevant sections of the Wildlife Act:

Wildlife Act
Hunting Regulations
Definitions
"full curl thinhorn ram mountain sheep" means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane;
"mature bighorn ram mountain sheep" means any bighorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane;


Regards,


Stephen M.Senior Wildlife Regulations OfficerFish and Wildlife BranchMinistry of Environment

[Slee]

Also out of the inspectors hand book......

(c) The decision reached regarding the legality of the sheep during the second evaluation represents the final position of the province. (A decision that a sheep is illegal is not appealable under the Wildlife Act).

[6616]

A legally harvested ram like this, even if broomed off more, would never be consficated in the first place unless the Regional Manager had a pea for a brain. Thus there would be no need to prove anything in court.

Several years ago when I was on the WSSOBC board I sat on a committee that evaluated all the criteria for legal definitions of rams in all the North American sheep hunting jurisdictions. We were suppoded to come up with a method or plan for identifying legal rams that was more clear cut and decisive and would remove the need for COs, Regional Managers, etc, to be subjective.

We failed in that attempt, it is my opinion that there will never be a definition of a legal ram that removes all possibility for subjective decision making and still allows the harvest of older broomed rams. We need to live with that, hunt with that knowledge, not shoot borderline rams, and not be concerned that a CO or Regional Manager would be unreasonable enough to question the legality of a ram like this one.

If very old rams, like this one for example, were broomed off to below the legal line, in order to harvest them/him you would have to rely on a subjective decision, I just don't see any other way.... except to chose not to shoot him. In the worst case scenario, if a subjective decision is challenged, it will come down to the opinion of expert witnesses in court.

It is important to note that very seldom (but not always the case) does a ram broom off more then back to the 2 year annulus.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

With just this one picture I can't be 100% sure of the annuli that I marked closest to the base.....but it looks like there's one there.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/P1030004.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=12938)

If so, I can see 8 .

SSS

[eastkoot]

With just this one picture I can't be 100% sure of the annuli that I marked closest to the base.....but it looks like there's one there.


So, are you the one to decide this ram is illegal, CO, regional Bio, CI or do I as the hunter have the benefit of the doubt, because I shot it after dillegently studying sheep horns and making a decision to harvest this ram because I know and more than likely you know it is of age?? Legally by definition, because the annuli are "broomed", it doesn't meet the propper LEGAL definition. But you and I both know this ram is of legal age.. Can you prove it's not and can I prove it is????

[bridger]

e
So since my question on the other thread got zapped,

Even if a sheep has 10 visible rings and is not full curl, the regulations state that you should not shoot based on horn annuli. So if you shoot a sheep based on horn annuli, aren't you in contradiction with the regs?

Regardless of the answer, I won't be shooting at any sheep that isn't WELL over the bridge of the nose.

is it not the case that bighorns have to be full curl regardless of the number of visible annuli whereas with stone sheep a legal ram has either 8 visible annuli or the horn breaks the nose. perhaps this is where you find confusion.

[eastkoot]

is it not the case that bighorns have to be full curl regardless of the number of visible annuli

Just using this as an example, pretend it's a thinhorn..

[GoatGuy]

So, are you the one to decide this ram is illegal, CO, regional Bio, CI or do I as the hunter have the benefit of the doubt, because I shot it after dillegently studying sheep horns and making a decision to harvest this ram because I know and more than likely you know it is of age?? Legally by definition, because the annuli are "broomed", it doen't meet the propper LEGAL definition. But you and I both know this ram is of legal age.. Can you prove it's not and can I prove it is????

Unless it was shot in Spences age means nothing.

Ram also looks like it means all the full curl definitions across the Province for bighorns.

Don't matter.

[eastkoot]

Ram also looks like it means all the full curl definitions across the Province for bighorns.

Sorry, did I just wake you up???:p

[GoatGuy]

Sorry, did I just wake you up???:p

I'm always half asleep.


You just get on the computer after sipping a couple shots of rye?


Don't hold back........

[eastkoot]

OK, I may have sipped a Gibsons before supper but that still doesn't make me a poacher for taking this ram does it???;)

[GoatGuy]

OK, I had a rye b4 supper but that still doesn't make me a poacher for taking this ram does it???

I just want to see a couple of your posts after you're half snapped up.;-)

Take the delete button off your computer. Kechika did it!

[eastkoot]

Take the delete button off your computer. Kechika did it!

I'll have to ask whatshisBOB how to do that!!!:lol:

[boxhitch]

So, are you the one to decide this ram is illegal, CO, regional Bio, CI or do I as the hunter have the benefit of the doubt,.....
...... Can you prove it's not and can I prove it is???? Not sure what point you are after, but are you asking if you the hunter is the one to make the final determination??
Not likely.

[Kody94]

Not sure what point you are after, but are you asking if you the hunter is the one to make the final determination??
Not likely.

I believe his point is "who carries the burden of proof...the hunter or the MOE"? ie. innocent until PROVEN guilty?

I think its pretty clear though. If the rings ain't all there, it doesn't matter what the true age is.

[eastkoot]

Originally Posted by boxhitch http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=413403#post413403)
Not sure what point you are after, but are you asking if you the hunter is the one to make the final determination??
Not likely.

No, but if you charge me for shooting an underaged ram, you must prove it's underaged...Can you determine how many annuli are not there due to brooming, not likely..

[boxhitch]

I guess thats where expert opinion weighs in.

[GoatGuy]

Can you determine how many annuli are not there due to brooming, not likely..

yes, it can be done.

I'm not an expert but I do have a buddy that's pretty good at it.;)

[Bowtime]

If there's only seven rings to count and its broomed I cant imagine that sheep being any onlder than nine. And that would need to be broomed heavy!! I would NOT take the risk of shooting a ram if I wasn't sure it was legal. That would not be smart.