Crossbows , Has technology crossed the lin ?

[greybark]

:?: Be assured that I am in favour of crossbows as they are classified as legal ... I just checked out Youtube video of the "PSE Tac 15 Debuted at The 2009 ATA "
:?: I am realy impressed with the tech side ( one inch groups at 100 yards)and wonder if THIS CROSSBOW has drawn a new line in the sand for the crossbow debates ?
:smile: No slamming please , just sound and reasoned opinions .

I don`t know how to post the link - sorry

[Bow Walker]

Eagle1 emailed me the ad page for the Tac 15. Incredible piece of engineering. Although it looks as if the bow is aimed primarily at the Armed Forces/Law Enforcement sector.

It's very expensive to boot...given the fact that you need an AR rifle stock just to be able to shoot the thing. Pretty sweet peice of equipment, just the same.

[boxhitch]

There is a demand so no surprise someone filled it.
These day I don't know if drawing a line is possible, there always seems to be something new one notch higher.
I'm waiting for the 400 yard in-line muzzle loader

[ElkMasterC]

I have it on good authority that mid-2009 they're coming out with a Picatinny rail system with a satellite Google Earth Attachment, and an M-203 Heat-Seeking Grenade/Missile Launcher.
Basically just follow the Cursor on the HUD (heads Up Display) until you're within 300 yards, and let fly.
It's gonna be SWEET!

[timberhunter]

I think it boils down to the same old argument with xbows.
Yes it will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards. But "NO" you shouldn't shoot an animal at that range because the bolt does not have the energy for an efficient kill.

While I think its really cool that it will do this kind of performance. I think its bad because some newbie to archery that has no clue as to how an arrow or bolt needs energy to efficiently kill. Will try a shot at a distance beyond this xbows effective killing distance.

I haven't researched this new xbow, but what speed is the bolt traveling. Sooner or later they will cross the 500fps boundry and then it becomes a firearm.

I had to go watch the you tube video. It is a very neat xbow. I may out of line here, but isn't the fact that it requires an AR lower mean it would then be registered??????
Is the serial number for the AR's on the lower section?.
Plus he stated that the shooter would need an AR lower section. But he also said PSE will be charging $1200 for it. Does that mean that after spending $1200 US on the bow, you still need to go buy an AR lower section?.
Thats getting a little expensive don't you think.

All in all the techknowledgy is very impressive. From xbows I have ever shot. The trigger pull and noise were to things I hated the most.

[Eagle1]

My PSE rep was saying they are thinking of making one that would be legal in Canada. That would be cool to see.I am getting older you know.

[Wildfoot]

Maybe if it was about 30" shorter.. then I could see this working. Their design is aweful.

[Hoytster]

if this crossbow was design for special forces application, I can see why....but I dont know.....I watched all 4 Rambo movies this weekkend and he did just fine with that little compound and special tipped arrows.....still.....there is a market for it so why not?

[boxhitch]

Sooner or later they will cross the 500fps boundry and then it becomes a firearm.
?Really.......
Fact? Will have to look that one up.
Pellet guns ? yes
Arrows/Bolts???????????
Marbles ???

[timberhunter]

An arrow or bolt is considered a single projectile. And therefore falls into the FPS restriction.

[Dirty]

These things are useless. Almost as useless as me with a compound bow.:mrgreen:

[Ron.C]

Hey, if it's legal and it's what your after, go for it. You can't stop technology. I can't see many using this thing for hunting as it carry's a very hefty price tag and it's huge! But neet to see none the less. I do agree with timerhunter and think regardless of how well it shoots at 100 yards, that's to far for ethical bowhunting.

[huntwriter]

I'm waiting for the 400 yard in-line muzzle loader

I am waiting for that one too.:smile:

But seriously, modern technology is a wonderful thing for as long as hunters do not depend on it to do the job for them.

[GoatGuy]

:?: Be assured that I am in favour of crossbows as they are classified as legal ... I just checked out Youtube video of the "PSE Tac 15 Debuted at The 2009 ATA "
:?: I am realy impressed with the tech side ( one inch groups at 100 yards)and wonder if THIS CROSSBOW has drawn a new line in the sand for the crossbow debates ?
:smile: No slamming please , just sound and reasoned opinions .

I don`t know how to post the link - sorry

Primitive weapons seasons in general evolved because managers had the ability to offer opportunity while lowering the harvest or success rate. More bang for the buck, if you will.

If you can't meet those criteria there's really no point in having primitive arms seasons. (see muzzleloaders)

[huntwriter]

If you can't meet those criteria there's really no point in having primitive arms seasons. (see muzzleloaders)

Wasn’t the muzzleloader season lost because the front stuffer hunters were squabbling with each other over modern in-lines should be included or not?

At least that is what I have been told by an avid traditional muzzleloader hunter. His words.” These dam in-line muzzleloader ruined our special season.”

[GoatGuy]

Wasn’t the muzzleloader season lost because the front stuffer hunters were squabbling with each other over modern in-lines should be included or not?

At least that is what I have been told by an avid traditional muzzleloader hunter. His words.” These dam in-line muzzleloader ruined our special season.”

Don't know the history. Regardless, today muzzleloaders are far too efficient to be considered for a 'primitive arms' season, especially if there's a pile of 30-30 fanatics out there. (joking, of course)

And as you know there's usually a cannibal behind every bush.

[aggiehunter]

Greybark, You might write the NRA and ask them why they are backing the crossbow hunters in the US.

[huntwriter]

Greybark, You might write the NRA and ask them why they are backing the crossbow hunters in the US.


Currently many U.S. states make crossbows legal for all hunters. Pennsylvania just added crossbows to the general archery season. Being the 25th state to permit crossbows as legal hunting tool for ALL, not just disabled hunters. With the rapid popularity and legalization of the crossbow the anti-crossbow league has stepped their bashing and lobbying up a notch or two and the NRA stepped up in support of crossbows with more fervor then they would have done in the past. The NRA would become just as vocal, as they have shown in the past when Ohio tried to outlaw primitive archery hunting and the use of round balls in muzzleloader, when other hunting forms are in trouble. While it is true that the NRA is first and foremost a firearm lobby group they support and defend without prejudice ALL forms of hunting, because, unlike some hunters and hunting organizations, they realize that if just one form of hunting is in trouble then we're all in trouble.

Thank God we have the NRA and the SCI that do not mince words and jump on to popular bandwagons or engage in petty little differences about hunting styles.

[GoatGuy]

Currently many U.S. states make crossbows legal for all hunters. Pennsylvania just added crossbows to the general archery season. Being the 25th state to permit crossbows as legal hunting tool for ALL, not just disabled hunters. With the rapid popularity and legalization of the crossbow the anti-crossbow league has stepped their bashing and lobbying up a notch or two and the NRA stepped up in support of crossbows with more fervor then they would have done in the past. The NRA would become just as vocal, as they have shown in the past when Ohio tried to outlaw primitive archery hunting and the use of round balls in muzzleloader, when other hunting forms are in trouble. While it is true that the NRA is first and foremost a firearm lobby group they support and defend without prejudice ALL forms of hunting, because, unlike some hunters and hunting organizations, they realize that if just one form of hunting is in trouble then we're all in trouble.

Thank God we have the NRA and the SCI that do not mince words and jump on to popular bandwagons or engage in petty little differences about hunting styles.


Alberta's opened things up to xbows as well.

[The Hermit]

Has this crossed the line? I don't know where the line is... but I don't think this new weapon would be very well suited for hunting. It looks to be really LONG and cumbersome so still hunting with it would be a chore, not a pleasure. It would be really hard to road hunt with this too as getting it in and out of the truck would be a giant PIA, and it wouldn't fit on my quad either. I suppose a guy could drag it up a treestand and build a shooting rest for it but you would still need to carry it into the tree :-)

My only real concern is the sales pitch about its accuracy out to 100 yards... sure it might be accurate but I wonder what the kintetic energy of a bolt out to even 80 yards would be? Also, even at 400 FPS leaving the machine the bolt would slow down and leave too much time for the animal to take a step or "jump the cable" at those distances.

So, its a very cool piece of technology but I certainly wouldn't by one at any price for hunting.

[kyleklassen]

I think it boils down to the same old argument with xbows.
Yes it will shoot 1" groups at 100 yards. But "NO" you shouldn't shoot an animal at that range because the bolt does not have the energy for an efficient kill.

While I think its really cool that it will do this kind of performance. I think its bad because some newbie to archery that has no clue as to how an arrow or bolt needs energy to efficiently kill. Will try a shot at a distance beyond this xbows effective killing distance.

I haven't researched this new xbow, but what speed is the bolt traveling. Sooner or later they will cross the 500fps boundry and then it becomes a firearm.

I had to go watch the you tube video. It is a very neat xbow. I may out of line here, but isn't the fact that it requires an AR lower mean it would then be registered??????
Is the serial number for the AR's on the lower section?.
Plus he stated that the shooter would need an AR lower section. But he also said PSE will be charging $1200 for it. Does that mean that after spending $1200 US on the bow, you still need to go buy an AR lower section?.
Thats getting a little expensive don't you think.

All in all the techknowledgy is very impressive. From xbows I have ever shot. The trigger pull and noise were to things I hated the most.
how much energy does it have at 100 yds.?

[PGK]

Yup, I'm waiting to see what happens when bows hit the 500fps mark. I remember when 300 was unattainable. Now my buddy is cranking out 374 with his target rig. I don't know if 400 has been hit yet, but it wouldn't surprise me. 500 is only a matter of time, then it's a firearm. Will COs then have to carry chronys in the bush during bow season?

Yes, XBows have gone too far. I don't disagree with their use, but this is a bit much. It's, as said, a 'primitive weapons' season. As stands, these are not primitive weapons anymore

[Gateholio]

Maybe a short discussion of the "500fps" thing is in order.

Many of us are aware that certain air guns are classified as firearms due to thier velocity. Some of this is by design- The manufacturers intended it to shoot 750fps++ with normal pellets.

However, when classifying all these some CFC bright boy found some super light, plastic skirted pellets and all of a sudden some of the sub-500FPS guns were going over 500!!

So, maybe some bright boy finds an uber light crossbow bolt and the 350fps bows end up being 501 fps bows?

It woudl probably hinge on finding a commonly available light bolt, I doubt they woudl try to make thier own, or use some plastic throwing dart...Be interesting to see, though.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

I see where you are going Clark ... but that said Bolts are easy to make out of any commercially availble arrow shaft ...and there are some pretty freakin light shafts out there when i can get a 28" long arrow down to below 300 grains finished weight and thats with a "welter weight" shaft (a light 400 spine)

But then again if the cross bow manufacter states that minimum safe weight is 425 grain.. if someone puts a 200 grain bolt into that same Xbow .. I think Darwinism will take over ...

I bet if I try hard enough I can get an arrow to go 500 fps out of my english long bow (Medeval war replica... 176 pound draw at 28"..ment to pump out 1000 grain arrows to 200 yards to punch through armour ) I bet if I put my wifes Gold tip Ultralights 600s (a hair over 200 grains finished weight) through the bow it would go pretty freakin fast ...but I wouldnt wanna do it twice ...


how much energy does it have at 100 yds.?

Probally more than it would at impact at 40 if its a slightly down hill shot (20 foot drop over 300 feet horizontal) .... Hold over would be increadible therfore the arc would look like a rainbow and with the force of gravity a 425 grain bolt would have a similar impact KE or Momentum value as a common .45 bullet shot from a "normal" hand gun (ie: A dirty harry special not a suped up .45 hand howitzer) at about 50 yards

[Gateholio]

I see where you are going Clark ... but that said Bolts are easy to make out of any commercially availble arrow shaft ...and there are some pretty freakin light shafts out there when i can get a 28" long arrow down to below 300 grains finished weight and thats with a "welter weight" shaft (a light 400 spine)

But then again if the cross bow manufacter states that minimum safe weight is 425 grain.. if someone puts a 200 grain bolt into that same Xbow .. I think Darwinism will take over ...

I bet if I try hard enough I can get an arrow to go 500 fps out of my english long bow (Medeval war replica... 176 pound draw at 28"..ment to pump out 1000 grain arrows to 200 yards to punch through armour ) I bet if I put my wifes Gold tip Ultralights 600s (a hair over 200 grains finished weight) through the bow it would go pretty freakin fast ...but I wouldnt wanna do it twice ...



s


Yes, I think it woudl have to be a common commercial bolt, and appropriate for the crossbow. With the air rifles, they were simply .177 pellets, and therefore appropriate.:smile:

[Elkhound]

Alberta's opened things up to xbows as well.

GG......when did Alberta open the bow season to crossbows...just curious as I have not heard.

[GoatGuy]

GG......when did Alberta open the bow season to crossbows...just curious as I have not heard.

They were supposed to have their own season last year (xbows) and there was talk about throwing them in with the bow seasons. Least that's what the folks in the SRD told me.

Guess they were having some 'social problems' as some of the folks went straight into convulsions. Looked kinda like the girl off of exorcist. hahaha

I figured this would have been the 'talk of the town' around these parts.

Maybe nothing happened last year due to 'politics'

From the ABA website

http://www.bowhunters.ca/index.php?action=view&id=
108&module=newsmodule&src=%40random41940a897e943

I should also mention xbows were allowed to hunt in all seasons other than bow before.

[Onesock]

Stir the pot GG!!!

[Ron.C]

They were supposed to have their own season last year (xbows) and there was talk about throwing them in with the bow seasons. Least that's what the folks in the SRD told me.

Guess they were having some 'social problems' as some of the folks went straight into convulsions. Looked kinda like the girl off of exorcist. hahaha

I figured this would have been the 'talk of the town' around these parts.

Maybe nothing happened last year due to 'politics'

From the ABA website

http://www.bowhunters.ca/index.php?action=view&id=
108&module=newsmodule&src=%40random41940a897e943

Intersting link, good read

I do see what they are saying about the retailers and manufacturers being the driving force behind allowing a Xbow season, but in regards to the below statement.

"It has been shown that hunters who use other weapons in the general season aren’t willing to buy a crossbow if all they can use it in is a general season. Potential customers await if the archery only seasons/zones can be opened up to crossbows. "

I am sure this is why alot of bowhunters hunt with crossbow here in BC. If crossbows weren't allowed, many probably wouldn't buy one or abondon the xbow, they would just rifle hunt. But in the end, how much more impact on the harvest do you think crossbows have? The link above says most likely up to 20% higher harvest, but thats on deer, what about other species like elk/bear.....

In my opinion, it still comes down to some thinking crossbows aren't bows, as stated in the beginning of the article contained in the link. Once you take a hard stance on any issue, it's easy to come up with reason upon reason for why you feel that way in an effort to justify your position to others. Besides, from a technology standpoint as was the initial point in this thread, once the string is cocked and ready to shoot,whats the difference between and older recurve crossbow of a more traditional style "if I can use those words" or a new hot crossbow like the one in this thread?

[GoatGuy]

Found an old thread on Alberta Outdoorsmen

Starts in 2006, still burning
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=2855

[PGK]

Maybe a short discussion of the "500fps" thing is in order.

Many of us are aware that certain air guns are classified as firearms due to thier velocity. Some of this is by design- The manufacturers intended it to shoot 750fps++ with normal pellets.

However, when classifying all these some CFC bright boy found some super light, plastic skirted pellets and all of a sudden some of the sub-500FPS guns were going over 500!!

So, maybe some bright boy finds an uber light crossbow bolt and the 350fps bows end up being 501 fps bows?

It woudl probably hinge on finding a commonly available light bolt, I doubt they woudl try to make thier own, or use some plastic throwing dart...Be interesting to see, though.

I dunno, you still need X amount of grain weight to sling an arrow at a high rate of speed without shattering the arrow when released. Different scenario, but entirely plausible.

[Gateholio]

I dunno, you still need X amount of grain weight to sling an arrow at a high rate of speed without shattering the arrow when released. Different scenario, but entirely plausible.

Or a different material...
But as already said, they aren't going to make thier own arrows just to much around.