REG changes

[palmer]

So does anyone have any regulation changes for the upcoming season yet ? I have heard about some road closures coming off in the kootenays, but nothing in writing yet.

Palmer

[tomahawk]

July is a long ways off, too early to know what is changing unless you know someone inside the Gov.

[6616]

So does anyone have any regulation changes for the upcoming season yet ? I have heard about some road closures coming off in the kootenays, but nothing in writing yet.

Palmer

See here: http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/kor/wld/Proposed_reg_changes.html

[Steeleco]

We've been waiting for "significant" changes for quite some time. The cynic in me has given up on any Gov't rhetoric regarding hunting.

[mrdoog]

There was some mention of tags for grouses.

[Angel]

There was some mention of tags for grouses.


:rolleyes: lets not start this topic again. lol


I think more info will come closer to the new regs coming out but i dont imagine there will be signifigant changes this year. but who knows, some will disagree.

[Brambles]

I also hear by the grape vine the other day of several road closures about to be lifted.....we'll have to wait and see but it would sure be nice if they did lift some. Spread some of the hunters out a bit more.
I read the proposed changes for my area and I like what I see and wished there would have been more opens BUT a bit at a time is better than none at all...


I don't have an issue with the majority of the road closures. What I am agains is the "Handicap" hunters being able to drive their trucks in to the roadclosures, right past guys who are humping their packs in. Then they get a load of firewood and throw the deer on top and drive out, yeah really handicapped.

They really need to look at these handicap permits, the majority of them are complete bullshit

[Angel]

They really need to look at these handicap permits, the majority of them are complete bullshit


Agreed!! I am of the mind that if the roads a closed keep them that way for all and if you are a "handicapped hunter" stick to the available open roads. There are so many options its a big PROV.

[budismyhorse]

Hey KenKell, don't worry about that deadline....they will take your comments anytime of the year. I sent mine in late and got a response!More people need to send in comments!

6616 also fired up a thread regarding those proposed changes quite some time ago....;)

[Brambles]

I agree Brambles.....they can actually get rid of the handicap permits all together because lets face it....road hunting is road hunting regardless of where they hunt. I also believe this is abused pretty badly through out our province.

I was going to respond to the proposed changes in a favourable manner but just saw the deadline for comments ended on Deadline for comments are December 10th, 2008. I am more than a little pissed off right now.
If the province can take the time and money to send out hunter questionaires that I faithfully fill out then they can off their damn arses and send out a heads up on the proposed changes!!!
Once again screwed for commenting!!!!

There was a post on this a few months ago, you might have missed this. I got some comments in, but I can't remember if the Handicapped hunting was one of them.

[budismyhorse]

No changes for the Elk in R4 until the managment plan is up in 2010....apparently.

[Fisher-Dude]

No changes for the Elk in R4 until the managment plan is up in 2010....apparently.

Yep, and next reg change year after it's studied to death is 2012 or 2013.

The elk will be dead before they change the regs. I'm willing to bet a few dollars on having R4 elk season curtailed because of another catastrophic winter die off before I'll wager on a 3 or 5 point season ever happening. I'm putting my energy into what I can influence here in region 8, 'cause I can't get F all done in region 4 with the mindset of NIMBY over there.

Might as well let the buzzards and coyotes eat them just like in 1997, right R4E FHAC members? After all, who the hell wants a freezer full of shitty elk meat? :neutral:

If you guys saw the piles of carcasses that I saw while shed hunting in spring '98 in 4-23, you'd puke.

[6616]

I also hear by the grape vine the other day of several road closures about to be lifted.....we'll have to wait and see but it would sure be nice if they did lift some. Spread some of the hunters out a bit more.
I read the proposed changes for my area and I like what I see and wished there would have been more opens BUT a bit at a time is better than none at all...

The AMA and VHAC changes can be viewed on the same site.

[dana]

From the rumblings I'm hearing, it sounds like Region 5 won't have a mule deer rut hunt this year. Sounds like they will go with a Nov 10th closure the same as Region 8.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Yep, and next reg change year after it's studied to death is 2012 or 2013.

The elk will be dead before they change the regs. I'm willing to bet a few dollars on having R4 elk season curtailed because of another catastrophic winter die off before I'll wager on a 3 or 5 point season ever happening. I'm putting my energy into what I can influence here in region 8, 'cause I can't get F all done in region 4 with the mindset of NIMBY over there.

Might as well let the buzzards and coyotes eat them just like in 1997, right R4E FHAC members? After all, who the hell wants a freezer full of shitty elk meat? :neutral:

If you guys saw the piles of carcasses that I saw while shed hunting in spring '98 in 4-23, you'd puke.

Don't even start man....

[Fisher-Dude]

Don't even start man....

How old were you in 1998...12? Go dry off behind your ears, and then come back and share some experiences you've had with game management problems.

[PGK]

How old were you in 1998...12? Go dry off behind your ears, and then come back and share some experiences you've had with game management problems.

Hahahahahahaha

His name don't lie.

[kootenayelkslayer]

How old were you in 1998...12? Go dry off behind your ears, and then come back and share some experiences you've had with game management problems.

You're an idiot. Go start a new thread so you can bitch and moan to yourself about how all the elk in the kootenays are dying. No one else wants to hear it anymore.

[Fisher-Dude]

You're an idiot. Go start a new thread so you can bitch and moan to yourself about how all the elk in the kootenays are dying. No one else wants to hear it anymore.

Shows that you don't know much. It's not that the elk are dying, the problem is they AREN'T dying. Go start a thread with Tinney about how fish bleed from line cuts.

[PGK]

Ahhhh nevermind. You ain't worth gettin banned over.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Shows that you don't know much. It's not that the elk are dying, the problem is they AREN'T dying. Go start a thread with Tinney about how fish bleed from line cuts.

How old are you?? Why is it that anytime someone under the age of 25 posts on HBC you jump all over it and pretend you are the fishing and hunting master. You must be very observative to have learned sooo much from the front seat of your pick up while you road hunt.
What do you have against youth? Are you own of those guys who see's a group of teenagers and shakes your fist at them from the safety of your own home... in this case, in the safety of your own computer.

[Fisher-Dude]

How old are you?? Why is it that anytime someone under the age of 25 posts on HBC you jump all over it and pretend you are the fishing and hunting master. You must be very observative to have learned sooo much from the front seat of your pick up while you road hunt.
What do you have against youth? Are you own of those guys who see's a group of teenagers and shakes your fist at them from the safety of your own home... in this case, in the safety of your own computer.

Maybe you should review the posts on this thread and see who started chirping at whom first. Then go look in your mirror. We were having a discussion about season changes and timing, and you and your little buddy start yapping it up. Contribute to the topic, back up your posts, and you'll get a bit of respect. Start off with this, and you'll get none.
Don't even start man....

[kootenayelkslayer]

Maybe you should review the posts on this thread and see who started chirping at whom first. Then go look in your mirror. We were having a discussion about season changes and timing, and you and your little buddy start yapping it up. Contribute to the topic, back up your posts, and you'll get a bit of respect. Start off with this, and you'll get none.

Pretty sure you're the one who went off on a tangent, trying to stir up a whole 'kootenay elk debate' again. Anyway, I'm going to leave it at that so people can continue their discussion on regulation changes... not elk populations.

[mark]

Pretty sure you're the one who went off on a tangent, trying to stir up a whole 'kootenay elk debate' again. Anyway, I'm going to leave it at that so people can continue their discussion on regulation changes... not elk populations.

Call me stupid but... wouldn't regulation changes, and animal populations go hand in hand during a discussion????
I believe FD is reffering to a reg change in the elk hunting to prevent an overpopulation, to prevent a huge die-off when the next slammer winter hits!

[dana]

But we have bought the Global Warming mantra hook, line and sinker. We don't have to worry about a slammer winter any more right? ;)

[PGK]

Call me stupid but... wouldn't regulation changes, and animal populations go hand in hand during a discussion????
I believe FD is reffering to a reg change in the elk hunting to prevent an overpopulation, to prevent a huge die-off when the next slammer winter hits!

Everybody knows that. But he is pushing for blanket slaughter regulations which (in mine and I'm sure KES's eyes) vastly decrease the enjoyment we get out of hunting. I certainly avoid areas of high hunter density because I hate running into other hunters. If FD gets his regulations, it will be a friggin slaughter in 4 for the next couple years, like the one you participated in up in 7B. I'm 100% certain you don't feel guilty about whacking 5 elk in 7B, but I bet if they opened that season up in your back yard, you'd be pretty choked!
Do you blame KES for wanting some actual management of elk populations? Instead of 'oh hey the elk numbers are up, time to slaughter em so they don't go to "waste" '

[PGK]

But we have bought the Global Warming mantra hook, line and sinker. We don't have to worry about a slammer winter any more right? ;)

Hahaha epic :lol:

[kootenayelkslayer]

Call me stupid but... wouldn't regulation changes, and animal populations go hand in hand during a discussion????
I believe FD is reffering to a reg change in the elk hunting to prevent an overpopulation, to prevent a huge die-off when the next slammer winter hits!

Ya sure they go hand-in-hand. But the regs haven't changed on elk yet, and Palmer was asking about any new changes.
If FD wants to talk about elk populations we might as well fire up one of the hundreds of old east kootenay elk threads on this site. But there is nothing new to talk about on that front, I think we've beaten that topic into the ground lately.

[budismyhorse]

Whoa Fisher, seems like you did get a bite on that little rant post this afternoon.

I see the mantra in 2009 is going to be population control-morphed from the battle of recruitment in 2008.

Has the gov't released the results of that elk population study they completed last year? I haven't seen it yet if they have. You are fairly wound up about it, so it sounds like you have read something? Care to share?

[Browningmirage]

How old were you in 1998...12? Go dry off behind your ears, and then come back and share some experiences you've had with game management problems.


are you a game manager?

[GoatGuy]

But we have bought the Global Warming mantra hook, line and sinker. We don't have to worry about a slammer winter any more right? ;)

Nobody told Winnipeg. It was -47 with the wind chill last week.

That's cold!:oops:

[hunter1947]

They say that there looking at maybe some rod closures in region 4-4 because of the threatened grizzly bear population ,what a crock ,where I hunt in this region I have seen more grizzly bears in the past 5 years then ever before in the area I hunt ????.

Sometimes I think it is just an excuse to keep out the local hunters so the guide outfitters get the area to themselves ???.

[ELKOHOLICBC]

Hey Kenkell or hunter 1947 where can you look for these purposed changes on the road closurers. Thanks for any info.

[hunter1947]

Hey Kenkell or hunter 1947 where can you look for these purposed changes on the road closurers. Thanks for any info.


Elk-BC Look back at the beginning of this thread 6616 put a link up to open.

[bighornbob]

vastly decrease the enjoyment we get out of hunting. I certainly avoid areas of high hunter density because I hate running into other hunters.

This has nothing to do with elk or any game management. This has to do with YOU wanting something for yourself.

When will people start putting personal gain aside for the betterment of hunting as a whole. All I hear on here most times is there is going to be a slaughter of this if they open up a season, or guys from the lower mainland came and shot this etc etc.

We are our own worst enemys sometimes:confused::confused:

BHB

[BCrams]

[quote=PGK;398139]Everybody knows that. But he is pushing for blanket slaughter regulations which (in mine and I'm sure KES's eyes) vastly decrease the enjoyment we get out of hunting.

Its a psycological problem and protectionist attitude. It 'won't' be a slaughter as people think.

I certainly avoid areas of high hunter density because I hate running into other hunters. If FD gets his regulations, it will be a friggin slaughter in 4 for the next couple years, like the one you participated in up in 7B.

I doubt if its his regulations. You should e-mail the head bio in Nelson and see what he says.....he's one smart fellow.

I'm 100% certain you don't feel guilty about whacking 5 elk in 7B, but I bet if they opened that season up in your back yard, you'd be pretty choked!

I was thrilled to see the regulation changes for 7B and I tell anyone to just come on up if they want to hunt the 7A elk.

Do you blame KES for wanting some actual management of elk populations?

The head bio is actually trying put forth actual management of elk but the nimby attitudes of a few aren't allowing it.

Next time KES goes home, he should be able to talk to the head bio there and maybe be more informed. You could have done that when you went there over Christmas.

Instead of 'oh hey the elk numbers are up, time to slaughter em so they don't go to "waste"

Is the habitat there to support those numbers?? Let me know!

[6616]

Is the habitat there to support those numbers?? Let me know!

Guys, BCrams asks a question of critical importance.

There is very little hard data on habitat carrying capacity or forage production/availability in Region 4. We do know one thing from the Tim Ross studies, and that is that the range produces 125% more forage in a wet year then it does in a drought year, and we had several consecutive years of drought between 2000 and 2006 in the EK and the habitat got beat down pretty bad. One didn't have to be a range agrologist to see the result.

We should obviously be keeping wildlife and cattle numbers at a level where the range does not get over-grazed in the worst possible scenario (drought years). Five or six years of consecutive over-grazing can cause range damage that can take decades to recover from with reduced carrying capacity through that entire time.

We may well have enough habitat to carry the elk population if all the elk were migratory, but about 1/4 to 1/3 of the elk no longer migrate and consume forage off the winter range on a year around basis. This is putting tremendous stress on the ranges. We also probably have enough habitat, even with the non-migratory elk, to carry the current populations in wet (high productive) years, but by so doing we are going to compromise the range in dry years.

It's all about the range. If we allow it to deteriorate we're going to lose the capacity to carry the socially expected wildlife populations in the EK.

We have elk (at near record high numbers), domestic cattle grazing, bighorn sheep, mule deer and white tailed deer (at previously unprecedented numbers) all competing on the same winter range areas for grass and browse.

I know somebody is going to say get rid of the domestic cattle, they don't belong there, but social decisions have been made many years ago to support a cattle ranching industry and 50% of the available forage on the Crown ranges is allocated to domestic cattle. There's really nothing we can do about that, we just have to accept that as a component of a complicated equation and work with it.

[6616]

Guys, BCrams asks a question of critical importance.

There is very little hard data on habitat carrying capacity or forage production/availability in Region 4. We do know one thing from the Tim Ross studies, and that is that the range produces 125% more forage in a wet year then it does in a drought year, and we had several consecutive years of drought between 2000 and 2006 in the EK and the habitat got beat down pretty bad. One didn't have to be a range agrologist to see the result.

We should obviously be keeping wildlife and cattle numbers at a level where the range does not get over-grazed in the worst possible scenario (drought years). Five or six years of consecutive over-grazing can cause range damage that can take decades to recover from with reduced carrying capacity through that entire time.

We may well have enough habitat to carry the elk population if all the elk were migratory, but about 1/4 to 1/3 of the elk no longer migrate and consume forage off the winter range on a year around basis. This is putting tremendous stress on the ranges. We also probably have enough habitat, even with the non-migratory elk, to carry the current populations in wet (high productive) years, but by so doing we are going to compromise the range in dry years.

It's all about the range. If we allow it to deteriorate we're going to lose the capacity to carry the socially expected wildlife populations in the EK.

We have elk (at near record high numbers), domestic cattle grazing, bighorn sheep, mule deer and white tailed deer (at previously unprecedented numbers) all competing on the same winter range areas for grass and browse.

I know somebody is going to say get rid of the domestic cattle, they don't belong there, but social decisions have been made many years ago to support a cattle ranching industry and 50% of the available forage on the Crown ranges is allocated to domestic cattle. There's really nothing we can do about that, we just have to accept that as a component of a complicated equation and work with it.

The point is that a winter die-off of elk and deer would be inconsequential in comparison to allowing the habitat to deteriorate. Wildlife can recover from a die-off if the habitat is there. If the habitat is compromised the wildlife would not come back in our lifetimes.

[boxhitch]

There is very little hard data on habitat carrying capacity or forage production/availability in Region 4.
Without this info, how can population numbers or harvest numbers be affixed, regardless of what
the socially expected wildlife populations in the EK.
, whatever that is.

All of my comments sent in were in regard to the benefit of increasing hunter opportunity, in areas of obvious no concern for pop. numbers, all species.
Then i can hire charter buses and bring all the hunters to the EK and offset my own expenses.

[6616]

The truth is that the MSY (maximum sustainable yield) harvest level of WTD is with populations at about 60% of carrying capacity. It's about 75%K for elk and 65%K for mule deer. So it follows that we could maximize harvest (harvest needs to be from all age and sex classes), encourage participation rates (recruitment/retention), minimize the impacts of killer winters, and protect habitat all at the same time by keeping these species at these appropriate densities in comparison to carrying capacity. We could have our cake and eat it too...!

[6616]

Without this info, how can population numbers or harvest numbers be affixed

Thats why the EK elk management plan doesn't have an elk population target or objective. Harvests levels are supposed to be set by range conditions and social factors (agricultural land depredation levels).

It's difficult and expensive to determine what actual carrying capacity is, especially when range conditions can vary so much from year to year, but it's very easy to see when over-grazing is occurring.

Of course, the difficult thing when range conditions indicate that too much forage is being removed, is to determine whether it's elk or domestic cows that are doing it. Also the success of this system depends on other agencies (MOFR & domestic grazing) responding as well as the Wildlife Branch.

It's probably a system that's doomed to failure because of lobby pressures exerted from hunters and cattlemen on behalf of their own specific interests.

[6616]

All of my comments sent in were in regard to the benefit of increasing hunter opportunity, in areas of obvious no concern for pop. numbers, all species.

Very good point, I would hope we all agree that those benefits are significant and in our cumulative best interests as hunters.

[ELKOHOLICBC]

Thanks wayne.

[dana]

Post BSE crisis and now in the midst of a global recession possibly depression, the BC Cattleman are hurting big time. I don't know the specifics of the Koots, but here in Region 3 there is far far less cattle on the range. Most ranchers have cut their herds way way back and a lot are keeping them on the ranch and not putting them on the range. It would be my guess the same thing is going on across the province, so it is hard to blame ranchers if range conditions are poor right now.

When it comes to opening up the regs for elk in the Koots, we need the cooperation of all Regions and you won't see a 'slaughter'. If all southern Regions open up various hunting opportunities at the same time, for moose, for whitetails, for muleys and for elk, the hunters will disperse with very little localized pressure. It becomes a win/win for managers and for hunters if we all work together and come up with unified regulations. It is the only way to get away from the 'fear factor' of a slaughter. Having hunters bounce around the province like they have been chasing season openings and jamming them all together in small places hasn't been working. PGK has a point that the crowds deter from the hunting experience. Is hunting a chore or is it fun? I would say the vast majority of hunters out there are looking for quality experiences. Being jammed into one little geographic area like a can of sardines with a bunch of other hunters is not what most hunters call a quality experience now is it? Disperse the hunters by opening up the options. Let us hunt. Let us hunt with grandparents hunting with their children and grandchildren. Not a lot of opportunity to do that in the age of LEH now is there? Let the old guys hunt again and have the last hurrah. Maybe they then can cross a few items off the bucketlist. Be it moose or be it elk.

[6616]

Post BSE crisis and now in the midst of a global recession possibly depression, the BC Cattleman are hurting big time. I don't know the specifics of the Koots, but here in Region 3 there is far far less cattle on the range. Most ranchers have cut their herds way way back and a lot are keeping them on the ranch and not putting them on the range. It would be my guess the same thing is going on across the province, so it is hard to blame ranchers if range conditions are poor right now.

When it comes to opening up the regs for elk in the Koots, we need the cooperation of all Regions and you won't see a 'slaughter'. If all southern Regions open up various hunting opportunities at the same time, for moose, for whitetails, for muleys and for elk, the hunters will disperse with very little localized pressure. It becomes a win/win for managers and for hunters if we all work together and come up with unified regulations. It is the only way to get away from the 'fear factor' of a slaughter. Having hunters bounce around the province like they have been chasing season openings and jamming them all together in small places hasn't been working. PGK has a point that the crowds deter from the hunting experience. Is hunting a chore or is it fun? I would say the vast majority of hunters out there are looking for quality experiences. Being jammed into one little geographic area like a can of sardines with a bunch of other hunters is not what most hunters call a quality experience now is it? Disperse the hunters by opening up the options. Let us hunt. Let us hunt with grandparents hunting with their children and grandchildren. Not a lot of opportunity to do that in the age of LEH now is there? Let the old guys hunt again and have the last hurrah. Maybe they then can cross a few items off the bucketlist. Be it moose or be it elk.

Several of the biggest producers (ranchers) in the EK have sold their herds off. Others are downsizing and overall AUMs being utilized on Crown ranges are now less then 40,000 AUMs while before the BSE crisis the utilization was about 50,000 AUMs.

Last year we killed about 2000 elk combined in the 6pt bull GOS, the antlerless LEH, and the youth/senior/archery GOS. All the LEH and youth/senior harvest was restricted to below 1100 meters to impact the non-migratory herds. The regional biologists feel the herd numbers have stabilized or may even have declined a small amount.

Many local bull elk hunters didn't like the youth/senior hunt much due to the over-crowding issues and felt the quality experience was compromised. Youth/seniors/LEH being restricted to below 1100 meters does cause the potential for crowding, but only at the lower elevations.

Youth and senior hunters that participated were by the large part very happy with and supportive of the opportunity and it seems to be reaching the management objective of stabilizibng the herd numbers and impacting the non-migratory component.

White tailed deer are another matter, it does not appear that hunting harvest is having any significant effect on population growth under the current management strategy. We are harvesting 5000 to 6000 bucks annually, but fewer than 1000 does.

[Browningmirage]

The truth is that the MSY (maximum sustainable yield) harvest level of WTD is with populations at about 60% of carrying capacity. It's about 75%K for elk and 65%K for mule deer. So it follows that we could maximize harvest (harvest needs to be from all age and sex classes), encourage participation rates (recruitment/retention), minimize the impacts of killer winters, and protect habitat all at the same time by keeping these species at these appropriate densities in comparison to carrying capacity. We could have our cake and eat it too...!

pretty sure MSY is an outdated method, correct me if i am wrong, but it led to the collapse of countless fish stocks...including atlantic cod (i know cod and elk are different), and has been problematic for other applications as well...

[one-shot-wonder]

White tailed deer are another matter, it does not appear that hunting harvest is having any significant effect on population growth under the current management strategy. We are harvesting 5000 to 6000 bucks annually, but fewer than 1000 does.

It appears that Reg. 4 WT could support a 2 bag limit for the entire region......Something that we are looking to return to in Region 8.

Any population & harvest numbers for Mule deer in Reg. 4?

[6616]

pretty sure MSY is an outdated method, correct me if i am wrong, but it led to the collapse of countless fish stocks...including atlantic cod (i know cod and elk are different), and has been problematic for other applications as well...

MSY requires knowing what the safe harvest level actually is, what the annual reproduction rate is, and requires monitoring of population status. I don't think the cod fisheries on the east coast was being monitored and they really had no idea what a safe harvest level was until it was too late.

R-Selected ungulate populations in north America have fairly decent population estimates and safe harvest levels have been studied to death. Many states and provinces manage deer and elk for MSY harvest levels. Saskatchewan and Alberta for example have been managing white tailed deer for MSY harvest levels for close to 50 years with no ill effects. Colorado harvests 18% to 20% of their total elk population each and every year. This is entirely possible if your management strategy is not geared towards trophy potential.

[6616]

Any population & harvest numbers for Mule deer in Reg. 4?

Somewhere between 30,000 to 40,000 with an annual harvest of 1200 to 1300 bucks (4 pts only), no antlerless harvest.

[Caveman]

Everybody knows that. But he is pushing for blanket slaughter regulations which (in mine and I'm sure KES's eyes) vastly decrease the enjoyment we get out of hunting. I certainly avoid areas of high hunter density because I hate running into other hunters. If FD gets his regulations, it will be a friggin slaughter in 4 for the next couple years, like the one you participated in up in 7B. I'm 100% certain you don't feel guilty about whacking 5 elk in 7B, but I bet if they opened that season up in your back yard, you'd be pretty choked!
Do you blame KES for wanting some actual management of elk populations? Instead of 'oh hey the elk numbers are up, time to slaughter em so they don't go to "waste" '

Funny you say it was a slaughter in 7b. I personally know of several groups that were up there and saw nothing and another that have been going for years and had one between four of them. I was there with Mark and we were quite lucky compared to others. We made the most of every opportunity we had. If they opened a season in our back yards would mean at least we have a population that will support the season.

[dana]

CO is also known as a raghorn state. But elk hunters flock there every year because they want to harvest A Elk. It all depends on what your goals are. Utah on the other hand was a raghorn state 15 years ago and changed their focus to producing trophy bulls instead. The majority of the state is Limited Entry and they have pumped a lot of money into elk habitat. That has payed off for them when it comes to Trophy bulls. They are now killing the bulk of the B&C bulls in North America, with the Spider Bull the shinning example of their management style. While this all sounds good for Utah, the bulk of hunters will never ever hunt there due to never being able to draw a tag. Hard to watch 400 inch bulls from your living room window and know you will never draw until you are an old old man. Also in this timeframe, Utah has lost it's reputation as a trophy mule deer state as the elk have won the battle on the winter range. Only the Henries are producing which is a Limited unit with unreal drawing odds. Even the famous Pauns is strugling to produce any quality bucks. The high elk numbers have really done damage to the mule deer. But.... look at CO. It has always been on top as a Trophy Mule Deer State and it continues to hold on to a wide lead. Even the underprescribed units are producing solid trophy bucks.
Given BC's loss of hunters, one would hate to manage for Trophy Quality and lose even more hunters as they wait a lifetime to draw a tag. Sure BC has produced big bulls in the past, they still will in the future, but we have never been know as a trophy elk destination. A raghorn is still a raghorn if it is a 3 point or a 6 point. Time to get that in our heads. Do we want the glory that Utah has but never let our hunters hunt, or do we want the CO strategy?

[6616]

CO is also known as a raghorn state. But elk hunters flock there every year because they want to harvest A Elk. It all depends on what your goals are. Utah on the other hand was a raghorn state 15 years ago and changed their focus to producing trophy bulls instead. The majority of the state is Limited Entry and they have pumped a lot of money into elk habitat. That has payed off for them when it comes to Trophy bulls. They are now killing the bulk of the B&C bulls in North America, with the Spider Bull the shinning example of their management style. While this all sounds good for Utah, the bulk of hunters will never ever hunt there due to never being able to draw a tag. Hard to watch 400 inch bulls from your living room window and know you will never draw until you are an old old man. Also in this timeframe, Utah has lost it's reputation as a trophy mule deer state as the elk have won the battle on the winter range. Only the Henries are producing which is a Limited unit with unreal drawing odds. Even the famous Pauns is strugling to produce any quality bucks. The high elk numbers have really done damage to the mule deer. But.... look at CO. It has always been on top as a Trophy Mule Deer State and it continues to hold on to a wide lead. Even the underprescribed units are producing solid trophy bucks.
Given BC's loss of hunters, one would hate to manage for Trophy Quality and lose even more hunters as they wait a lifetime to draw a tag. Sure BC has produced big bulls in the past, they still will in the future, but we have never been know as a trophy elk destination. A raghorn is still a raghorn if it is a 3 point or a 6 point. Time to get that in our heads. Do we want the glory that Utah has but never let our hunters hunt, or do we want the CO strategy?

Excellent post Dana. I guess many people might opt for something in between Colorado and Utah, but with BC hunters falling off the bandwagon like crazy, maybe that should be our priority for the next while.

[PGK]

Funny you say it was a slaughter in 7b. I personally know of several groups that were up there and saw nothing and another that have been going for years and had one between four of them. I was there with Mark and we were quite lucky compared to others. We made the most of every opportunity we had. If they opened a season in our back yards would mean at least we have a population that will support the season.

I don't know any groups who went up that didn't come back with at least 2 elk among them. But besides that, there are good elk hunters, and bad ones. I am undoubtedly the latter, having never deliberately chased elk. But damn I think it would have been a gimme to drive up there and pop the first raghorn 3pt or cow I saw. At any rate. a lot of elk got killed up there this year. They wanted a 50% herd reduction, and I think they've done it.

[hunter1947]

It appears that Reg. 4 WT could support a 2 bag limit for the entire region......Something that we are looking to return to in Region 8.

Any population & harvest numbers for Mule deer in Reg. 4?

In the area I hunt in 4-4 the mule deer bucks are low in number .

With what numbers of mule buck deer I have seen in region 4-4 over the last 5 years it would be devastating to open up anything under a 4 point season or allow two mule deer shot in a GOS.

The WT in the area I hunt in 4-4 where strong till about two years ago I have seen a decline on the WT deer in the last two years.

Reason being hunting pressher and predator problem ,predators take the smaller game animals like deer.

Then the predators will take the larger animals when deer are hard to find ,they will then take elk calves etc..

Two years ago I saw 20 WT bucks ,last year I saw one WT buck and very few does and I hunted over the same areas as the past years.

[riflebuilder]

I definately support a GOS om whitey does they are high in numbers and need to be cut back to better balance the herds. I like the GOS on spike moose and think it will get a lot of guys out hunting. Are they going to make it a Moose or Elk but not both reg? I have had a tough go on mulies so far here and do not beleive that they should be opened up to more harvest. But if the numbers are ther and it is a management tool to harvest some does for the good of the range and herd health I totaly support it. Mulie does taste good.

[6616]

MSY requires knowing what the safe harvest level actually is, what the annual reproduction rate is, and requires monitoring of population status. I don't think the cod fisheries on the east coast was being monitored and they really had no idea what a safe harvest level was until it was too late.

R-Selected ungulate populations in north America have fairly decent population estimates and safe harvest levels have been studied to death. Many states and provinces manage deer and elk for MSY harvest levels. Saskatchewan and Alberta for example have been managing white tailed deer for MSY harvest levels for close to 50 years with no ill effects. Colorado harvests 18% to 20% of their total elk population each and every year. This is entirely possible if your management strategy is not geared towards trophy potential.

BrowningMirage, I should have been a little more specifc in my previous reply re MSY because you do make a legitimate point. One can never truely manage to the mathematical MSY level. When I say manage to MSY harvest levels, I really mean MSY should be treated as an absolute maximum harvest, and never a target harvest level.

It's difficult to calculate a exact and correct MSY harvest level and MSY only occurs at a specific percentage of herd density vrs carrying capacity, and some of the data used to feed the formula is vague. Also MSY can change annually as herd populations vary from year to year in regards to carrying capacity, and carrying capacity itself will vary from year to year with annual rainfall and weather conditions, etc, so managing ungulates to an MSY harvest level will involve attempting to calculate MSY and then allow a safe margin for error when establishing the actual harvest level.

MSY is a theoretical number anyway, it probably would be more accurate for me to have said Optumim Sustainable Yield, since in actual practice the process more closely meets that definition.

Managing to an MSY harvest is a term more often used in fisheries management, and it's even more risky in that regard as you alluded to the East Coast cod fishery, since actual population density and carrying capacity values can only be roughly estimated for fish stocks and habitat. More-over the off-shore catch of cod by non-canadian vessels was never truely and exactly know and calculated into the annual quotas. We certainly don't want to repeat the cod fishery fiasco in our lifetimes again.