southern interior mule deer strategy?

[bpshooter]

i read in the outdoor edge mag about this it will include regions 3,4,5 and 8 but gave no details about what the strategy is or what will be affected.anyone out thier have any details on this?

[TimberPig]

I haven't heard any specific details so far, but I believe the main point is to harmonize seasons across the regions to spread the hunting pressure out more.

For instance, the any buck season in region 5 has been until Nov 20 for several years, while adjacent region 3 is 4 pt or greater all of November. This leads to more people hunting region 5, so they can shoot anything with antlers, rather than searching for 4 pt or greater bucks in region 3.

[GoatGuy]

A consistent approach to mule deer management.

[6616]

I also heard they want to establish seperate provincial bag limits for Mule Deer and White Tailed Deer.

[horshur]

3 against one whether there will be a rut hunt for mulies..

[mark]

3 against one whether there will be a rut hunt for mulies..

What??? Am I missing something here? This doesnt make any sense to me! :confused:

[horshur]

Oh come off it guys!!!

do some speculating.

region 8 rifle closes nov 10....region 4 closes nov 15 or nov 10 couple areas close dec 10 but you could say the majority of region 4 is done by middle of November.
region 5 has a great big cluster*#$%^ and came close to shutting down early like region 8 last year---do you realy think buck/doe ratios fixed themselves over a season???
allas..region 3 has a closure Dec 10.

Do you suppose it is possible that earlier closers in 5,4,8 may take precident in there harmonizing rather than the generous closer of 3????

Damn straight!!!

do you all think it would be good for BC and it's sportsmen/women to not have a late season Rut hunt in the southern interior?? Cause that is a real possibility as it stands right now.

[goatdancer]

Parts of region 8 close Oct 31. Just depends on the numbers of deer in the area.

[one-shot-wonder]

Parts of region 8 close Oct 31. Just depends on the numbers of deer in the area.

I would have to say that is due to the head bio in region 8 more than anything......

Mule deer numbers are as high as I have seen them in 8-12 these days.

[KevinB]

Oh come off it guys!!!

do some speculating.

region 8 rifle closes nov 10....region 4 closes nov 15 or nov 10 couple areas close dec 10 but you could say the majority of region 4 is done by middle of November.
region 5 has a great big cluster*#$%^ and came close to shutting down early like region 8 last year---do you realy think buck/doe ratios fixed themselves over a season???
allas..region 3 has a closure Dec 10.

Do you suppose it is possible that earlier closers in 5,4,8 may take precident in there harmonizing rather than the generous closer of 3????

Damn straight!!!

do you all think it would be good for BC and it's sportsmen/women to not have a late season Rut hunt in the southern interior?? Cause that is a real possibility as it stands right now.

That worries me a bit too Andy. I think (take that for what it's worth!) that the best thing in the long run would be more harmonized seasons, as long as that doesn't mean losing too much hunter opportunity, overall. I hope we'd see lengthened seasons in some areas, to balance out any seasons that get shortened elsewhere. As much as I'd miss the really long Region 3 season, I guess I'd have to suck it up and say I'd be willing to have our season here shortened a bit (I'm cringing as I type that one), if it meant increased opportunities for hunters in other areas. I don't see why Region 8 hunters shouldn't benefit from longer seasons, if it is fine for the local MD populations. Spread everyone out, and I bet most areas could sustain more liberal seasons and you might even get a few new hunters interested.

Maybe more liberal WT seasons wold help ease pressure on Muleys in some areas as well. From everything I read/hear/see, WT's are spreading quickly in Region 3 and a 4-month any buck season doesn't seem to be doing anything to slow that down - seems like a 2-buck bag limit for WT's could be do-able. Which might allow for a longer Muley season as more hunters might spend more time hunting WT's...?

Also we are losing our current Region 3 bio here pretty soon...I'm wondering wheree things will go after that.

[GoatGuy]

Oh come off it guys!!!

do some speculating.

region 8 rifle closes nov 10....region 4 closes nov 15 or nov 10 couple areas close dec 10 but you could say the majority of region 4 is done by middle of November.
region 5 has a great big cluster*#$%^ and came close to shutting down early like region 8 last year---do you realy think buck/doe ratios fixed themselves over a season???
allas..region 3 has a closure Dec 10.

Do you suppose it is possible that earlier closers in 5,4,8 may take precident in there harmonizing rather than the generous closer of 3????

Damn straight!!!

do you all think it would be good for BC and it's sportsmen/women to not have a late season Rut hunt in the southern interior?? Cause that is a real possibility as it stands right now.


Was there a problem with the buck:doe ratios in region 5?

Or is this being driven by politics?

[GoatGuy]

That worries me a bit too Andy. I think (take that for what it's worth!) that the best thing in the long run would be more harmonized seasons, as long as that doesn't mean losing too much hunter opportunity, overall. I hope we'd see lengthened seasons in some areas, to balance out any seasons that get shortened elsewhere. As much as I'd miss the really long Region 3 season, I guess I'd have to suck it up and say I'd be willing to have our season here shortened a bit (I'm cringing as I type that one), if it meant increased opportunities for hunters in other areas. I don't see why Region 8 hunters shouldn't benefit from longer seasons, if it is fine for the local MD populations. Spread everyone out, and I bet most areas could sustain more liberal seasons and you might even get a few new hunters interested.

Maybe more liberal WT seasons wold help ease pressure on Muleys in some areas as well. From everything I read/hear/see, WT's are spreading quickly in Region 3 and a 4-month any buck season doesn't seem to be doing anything to slow that down - seems like a 2-buck bag limit for WT's could be do-able. Which might allow for a longer Muley season as more hunters might spend more time hunting WT's...?

Also we are losing our current Region 3 bio here pretty soon...I'm wondering wheree things will go after that.

Geez, you're one sharp dude! Why can't everybody wrap their minds around this?


You've also touched on the social side. Talk to some hunters and they'll tell you wt and md are practically on the verge of extinction. That right there is the problem!

[horshur]

Was there a problem with the buck:doe ratios in region 5?

Or is this being driven by politics?

it has been suggested that ratios are not ideal...been questioned on validity of ratios due to census timing.

Politics..............somebody said everything was politics..

[GoatGuy]

it has been suggested that ratios are not ideal...been questioned on validity of ratios due to census timing.

Politics..............somebody said everything was politics..



Weird???????

[horshur]

Jessie---have you not been sleeping well???LOL

I have no clue what sort of politics are invloved...maybe You have a better view of such things ???

I suppose that there are several stakeholder like cattlemen--Guides--first nations--residents and the general hunting public--as well as are dearly beloved Politicians who wish to remain in power and will kiss ass to avoid negitive publicity.

[GoatGuy]

Jessie---have you not been sleeping well???LOL

I have no clue what sort of politics are invloved...maybe You have a better view of such things ???

I suppose that there are several stakeholder like cattlemen--Guides--first nations--residents and the general hunting public--as well as are dearly beloved Politicians who wish to remain in power and will kiss ass to avoid negitive publicity.
Mr.Horshur,

I, goatguy, was just asking a question.

No, being a goat, I never sleep well.

I look at it and think, hmmmm the census revealed a buck:doe ratio of around 18:100. I think, hmmm that's not bad. I also think hmmm, when were the counts done and then I think, hmmmm, seems like it might be a bit of a problem. I talk to some of the guys in the Loop(s) and they say the same thing. Weird, I think.

I think, hmmmmm, what was it like before. Hmmm, buck:doe ratios were way lower in the 90s, a bit higher in the early 2000s. Weird, I think.

I talk to my buddy who's owns a whopper ranch (he's a hunter too) up there and he says the deer are eating him out of house and home and that the cattlemen are far from happy - more like ready to form a lynch mob. His family has had the place for 3 generations and he says there are a pile of deer. Weird, I think.

I talk to the residents up there and they want to keep hunting and they're worried that if the season changes it will never go back.

I think weird - there seems to be lots of deer, buck:doe ratios are certainly good enough to ensure all the breeding's done, the cattlemen are having problems, the hunters want to hunt, and there's a push to close the seasons down.

Then I think about what that will do to hunting opportunities in Region 3. Not good, I think.

I think about how you can walk across an imaginary line from region 3 to region 8 and then cut the season back by one month and the any buck season by 11 days.

I think about how we don't harvest any of the female component across Regions 8 and Regions 4.

And I ask myself, why? Why? Why?

And then I think to myself,

What a wonderful world.

[horshur]

so Jessie there seems no real rational.....is this alot higher up politicaly perhaps?

[dana]

It's rather simple. Those who make the rules are only looking out for themselves. They want to kill big bucks and yet they can't seem to get r done so therefor there must be something wrong right? It ain't about buck to doe ratios, it is instead about how many big ol' mature bucks are out there. Simple math shows if ya whack your bucks off when they are yearlings and 2 year olds during the heat of the rut when they are dumb as a stick, then you won't have many bucks living to an old age and producing those big racks that Region 5 is world famous for. Soooo, to get those big bucks back, you must close down the rut. Of course it don't matter what the hunters want. It don't matter that the majority of the hunters of this province just are looking for meat. It don't matter that they are currently overrun with deer. It don't matter that they will be screwing over Region 3. They don't care. It is indeed politics.

As far as the rest of the Regions, they are gunshy from the big dieoff of 96. They have there pops back and they don't want to screw it up for the future. Who can blame them? The fact is if 8 and 4 don't get on board and extend there seasons, then Region 3 will loose it's late season. For myself, I enjoy hunting the late season, but it won't be the end of the world. I'll still be whacking big bucks regardless. For the joeblow hunters out there, they will be loosing opportunity and they will have to adapt to hunting earlier in the season. But when the majority of hunters in this province are meat hunters, they will find better tasting meat with the rut hunts gone.

[Will]

I really like hunting the Nov-dec part of our season....I for one will miss a late Muley season here.:-(

If the numbers can sustain it and we all certainly know they can then why, why, why ?

Seems seasons should be getting increased all over........get rid of the four points or better crap and run one season for any buck, everywhere....problem solved.

Heck throw out some more Doe tags too.

[mark]

I really like hunting the Nov-dec part of our season....I for one will miss a late Muley season here.:-(

If the numbers can sustain it and we all certainly know they can then why, why, why ?

Seems seasons should be getting increased all over........get rid of the four points or better crap and run one season for any buck, everywhere....problem solved.

Heck throw out some more Doe tags too.

Just a thought here but how about any deer??? with the same bag limits??
Shoot a doe and your done for that region, or save your tag for a buck. I think it would certainly fix the buck- doe ratio problem! Provide nearly guaranteed success for anyone buying a tag, meat hunters could go home early and save lots of little bucks from certain death!

[Will]

Just a thought here but how about any deer??? with the same bag limits??
Shoot a doe and your done for that region, or save your tag for a buck. I think it would certainly fix the buck- doe ratio problem! Provide nearly guaranteed success for anyone buying a tag, meat hunters could go home early and save lots of little bucks from certain death!

I like it.....back to the good Ol days when one simply bought a "Deer tag" :smile:

Meat hunters would be Happy and those holding out for a Big fella can do so ! Win Win.

[dana]

Mark,
The sad reality is that meat hunters aren't truly just meat hunters as they claim to be. They too covet tine and they would rather shoot a spike or a forky over a doe any day. This is the reason the LEH doe seasons in the Cariboo ain't working. You see, there is a 2 mule deer limit. Get one of those easy to draw doe tags as insurance but book your holidays to cover the end of the any buck season and the beginning of the 4point or better season and more than likely you'll see guys come home with 2 bucks versus a buck and a doe. Common sense would make it a 1 buck bag limit but it seems that common sense ain't that common these days.

[hunter1947]

Mark,
The sad reality is that meat hunters aren't truly just meat hunters as they claim to be. They too covet tine and they would rather shoot a spike or a forky over a doe any day. This is the reason the LEH doe seasons in the Cariboo ain't working. You see, there is a 2 mule deer limit. Get one of those easy to draw doe tags as insurance but book your holidays to cover the end of the any buck season and the beginning of the 4point or better season and more than likely you'll see guys come home with 2 bucks versus a buck and a doe. Common sense would make it a 1 buck bag limit but it seems that common sense ain't that common these days.


I would like to see a regs changed in that area also Dana ,one buck per hunter only.

[Jelvis]

--R u hunter's sayin the season in three is losing the Dec 10th closer. When I started hunting in the 60's the season went into January, then dec after christmas, then dec 10th, now your saying earlier.
The game dept could be worried that the surrounding regions closing earlier, might cause too many to get their buck in reg 3, at least that was a reason a few years back.
I'd hate to see that happen to hunter's that love hunting in the snow later after the nov long weekend.
Jelly--no hunting in snow would be a low blow.

[GoatGuy]

Mark,
The sad reality is that meat hunters aren't truly just meat hunters as they claim to be. They too covet tine and they would rather shoot a spike or a forky over a doe any day. This is the reason the LEH doe seasons in the Cariboo ain't working. You see, there is a 2 mule deer limit. Get one of those easy to draw doe tags as insurance but book your holidays to cover the end of the any buck season and the beginning of the 4point or better season and more than likely you'll see guys come home with 2 bucks versus a buck and a doe. Common sense would make it a 1 buck bag limit but it seems that common sense ain't that common these days.

Open a doe GOS and hair will hit the ground - guaranteed.

Of course, the point of this is that there are other regions who could afford to increase opportunity to help shoulder some of the load - they should have done that years ago and we would have never, ever, ever, been in this predicament.

Let hunters go out and actually harvest some wt's - they can handle major harvest without a hitch.

Then everybody's happy.

[dana]

When you are managing for trophy quality, which is what they will be doing when they close the rut, killing does is actually going against your strategy for producing big bucks. Remember 50% of what it takes to grow a big buck comes from the doe. If you kill off 1000's of does in a GOS you are messing with that logic. GOS is too much of a slippery slope and I believe most managers realize that. At least with LEH they have a control on the numbers. GOS is a crapshoot. Like you said, the buck to doe ratios ain't that bad. Killing off does to somehow get that ratio better is flawed logic. The fact is when buck ratios are high, bucks are way more aggressive during the rut because there is more competition for those does. Aggressive rut coupled with harsh winter and you have more buck winter mortality. Thus your buck to doe ratio is out of whack again, thus you need to kill more does and the cycle spirals out of control.

[MattB]

I think opening regions 4, 5 and 8 to the exact same regs as region 3 may benefit all hunters and provide better chances at taking mature deer. If they do close the reg 5 rut hunt then the reg 3 rut hunt will get hammered and then that will get closed as well. If we open up regions 3,4,5 and 8 to the exact same seasons as region 3 then it may disperse the hunting pressure throughout these zones and take alot of the late season pressure off reg. 5. I know i would head to reg. 4 or 8 over region 5 if given the choice on where to hunt during the rut. This may be worth a shot and definitely wouldnt reduce hunter opportunities, it would enhance them and potentially encourage people to hunt!

[horshur]

well I have one idea and it won't be too popular but it probably result in substainable harvest...that would be a One Mule deer provincial bag limit per hunter.

It would soften regional pressures...allow GOS any buck regionaly and even provide some Trophy buck hunting for those who hold on to there tag.

an LEH doe authorization would not count against your provincial bag limit and in certain cases aditional doe draws could be avaliable if harvest innitiatives are not being met.

In all honestly a GOS either sex would be substainable with the one Mule deer limit province wide.(seems reasonable)

an additional stop gap to any sex GOS would be to have a 4 point season starting november 1st.

have mule deer shut down by November 20

[Everett]

Ok I am a on side for a split bag limit for deer but lets do it this way split mule deer from black tail since they are different specis anyway. Stitka would be outside the provicial bag limit. So the provincial bag limit would be:

1. Two mule deer two one buck one doe
2. Two whitetail either sex
3. Two Blacktail either sex
4. Maximum of three deer kills per hunter per year.

To complement this if no point restrictions anywhere in the province if point restrictions are required first non resident hunting is closed than if consevation numbers are not met all hunting for that specis is closed until numbers rebound. All seasons in regions 3, 4 5, and 8 run together.
I know our hunting guide members of this forum are going to scream about the the closing of non resident hunting but bluntly all wildlife belongs to the people of Bc first.

Sorry about the spelling and grammer but my proof reader went to bed.

[hunter1947]

No matter how they implement the changes for deer ,you still would be able to shoot 3 deer a season.

A hunter would be able to shoot one mule deer buck ,then shoot a whitetail buck,then a doe from most regions ,lets face it if you get 3 deer of any species that I would think would be lots of meat for the year for the average family to eat.

And if that is not enough meat for you then go hunt elk ,moose bison ,etc.

[blacklab]

Mark, the any deer with a 1 deer per region makes more sense than anything I've heard in a long time. I should help hunter success which will keep people in the game and do wonders for hunter recruitment.
It wont make the "trophy hunters" very happy.

[GoatGuy]

Part of what folks should maybe consider for region 5 is those folks don't have wt's to hunt, moose are closed and they don't have an elk season.

I can appreciate the 2 deer bag limit in region 5, especially considering they can't shoot anything else. The rest of us can.

I don't think this requires wide scale change, although I really, really like some of the ideas.

Liberalizing mule deer in Regions 4 & 8 a bit, shooting some friggen' does (there's no mule LEH in region 4 :redface:) and opening wt's up should even things out across the province. If we didn't suffer from NIMBYitess we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Personally, I think we need to move to a management plan and a strategy (not a hunter plan) so that we don't end up with these bizarre nimby regulations that create nothing but problems.

Definitely a hijack, but some GREAT ideas.

[mark]

Horshue, your right, I sure dont like your idea of only 1 muley buck for the year and province, thats way to restrictive IMO, (we dont have a low pop crisis on our hands) 1 buck only for region 5 is long over due!

GoatGuy, region 5 does have whities and a season for them, and they are moving in real fast and lots of people are bagging them, especially around the 100 mile area!


Mark, the any deer with a 1 deer per region makes more sense than anything I've heard in a long time. I should help hunter success which will keep people in the game and do wonders for hunter recruitment.
It wont make the "trophy hunters" very happy.

Why wont it make trophy hunter happy??? Im somewhat of a trophy hunter when it comes to mulies, It was my idea! The people that simply want meat can just plug a deer and go home, less pressure in the bush, as well on the buck pop. A few less does and a few more bucks will mean a better buck-doe ratio which in turn will provide more trophy class bucks!

[BCrams]

[quote=GoatGuy;398355]Part of what folks should maybe consider for region 5 is those folks don't have wt's to hunt, moose are closed and they don't have an elk season.

Saw a huge 160 class whitey in a field by McLeese a couple years ago....including elk. Just wait until the elk hit the Chilcotin grassland country (if some haven't already) !!

If we didn't suffer from NIMBYitess we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Very unfortunate and its a small crowd at that and also the most vocal.

Personally, I think we need to move to a management plan and a strategy (not a hunter plan) so that we don't end up with these bizarre nimby regulations that create nothing but problems.

Whatever happened to teamwork? Collaboration and harmonization between regions can be a very 'good' thing. A lot can be accomplished on a provincial level.

[GoatGuy]

GoatGuy, region 5 does have whities and a season for them, and they are moving in real fast and lots of people are bagging them, especially around the 100 mile area!


They have around 500-1000 wt's in region 5. People need to actually be able to shoot wildlife to put it in their freezer.

We've probably got 35-40000+ in region 8. That's a bigggggggg difference.

[horshur]

They have around 500-1000 wt's in region 5. People need to actually shoot some.

We've probably got 35-40000+ in region 8. That's a bigggggggg difference.

and they would pretty much have incentive to stay home hunting them once they shot there mulie tag.... or held on to it in order to hunt empire in November.

there is too much wrangling to try to reduce buck harvest already and the natural course of events would be to see a LEH eventually on bucks...seems there are some game managers addicted to buck porn from the states and reading their koolaid and beliveing the lies about all the money..has anyone noticed how much money the states actualy have???
Assests are non existant, mostly liabilities, it is glitter with very little gold.

[shortroot]

I believe that a 1 week no hunting gap between each "season" in region 5 would eliminate out of region hunters scheduling their vacations to overlap seasons and harvest 2 bucks.

Have Sept 1-10 open for 4 point or better and youth any buck, Sept 17-Oct 31 open for any buck, and Nov 7- Nov 30 (or Dec 10) open for 4 point or better. Keep doe on LEH and split up between the seasons.

Do not remove the 2 buck limit in region 5, as it is very helpful to many locals who wish to fill their freezers every year. If out of region hunters chose to make 2 trips to the region, or have a 2-3 week trip planned to overlap seasons, then GREAT, it would help stimulate the local economy.

With a doe draw many could still harvest two deer on a single trip, with one having to be a doe. Otherwise people on a trip would have to hunt two different regions on their trip to accumulate two bucks, helping to spread the harvest and hunting pressure out. On a good day you could get your provincial bag limit by shooting a mulie in region 3, 5 and 7 (they are only 4 hours apart, not a long day for a typical road hunter).

I don't see how you can take the pressure off of Region 5 bucks without going to a 1 buck limit, or having a break between seasons. Having a break between the seasons would benefit those that live in the region, without taking away any hunting opportunity from anyone else in the province, it would just reduce their harvest potential within the region. Aligning hunting seasons in the regions to be similar also helps to take pressure of of certion regions at particular times. Although I have never hunted region 3 in December, I have always wanted to because it is open then.

Having lived in Region 5 it would be nice to see more of the zones opened for the early season as well. It would spread the early harvest out.

[Husky7mm]

What works of one region might not work for another. Region 5 should remember what worked for them a short while ago and return to it, stop the overlap november hunt. Lets not try to re-invent the wheel here. If there is still too many deer ,than increase the doe opportunity with no reduction of an opportunaty at 1 buck.
As for nothing to hunt there still is a two deer limit, (but only one should be a buck.) It is very relistic to get a moose draw there also, many units have around 1-1, 1-2 ,0r 1-3 odds.
As for LEH mule doe in region 4 that is a bad Idea at this time. Just because there are pockets of does observed here and there does not mean there is a strong population thoughout.
I was told by a retired bio that reg 4 had 4 mulies to 1 whitey, now its opposite. That would have been a site. I would love to hunt mulies later, but I would hate the season to end in october. Hopefully someone knows what their doing.:???:

[TimberPig]

It is very relistic to get a moose draw there also, many units have around 1-1, 1-2 ,0r 1-3 odds.


It's only realistic if you want to hunt areas with difficult access, or restrictions on the use of ATV's etc.

All the areas with better access and fewer restrictions have much higher odds than that.

The problem with region 5 moose is there is very heavy first nations pressure on the population, which limits the allowable harvest for the rest of us. Then you have everyone local applying for tags, and many from elsewhere in the province also applying, which results in high odds for any of the better draw locations.

I know many people who have gone years between successful draws, and some who have never managed to pull a tag, even applying for a low odds, middle of nowhere with crappy access draw.

Then you have a 2 week window (3 for the September draw) to try and find a moose, which may or may not happen depending upon where you are and how hard you hunt. Crappy hot weather like early last fall only makes finding them that much worse.

I wouldn't rate the odds of pulling a decent moose draw in region 5 as being very good.

[Husky7mm]

Reg 5 had the highest moose havest for many years, before leh, I have not hunted the for some time but, dont remember hardly any restrictions on atv, besides you dont need an atv to hunt moose, you need an atv get your moose out LOL. If you'd like to see restrictions come to region 4 it is mind numbing.

[6616]

As for LEH mule doe in region 4 that is a bad Idea at this time. Just because there are pockets of does observed here and there does not mean there is a strong population thoughout.
I was told by a retired bio that reg 4 had 4 mulies to 1 whitey, now its opposite. That would have been a site. I would love to hunt mulies later, but I would hate the season to end in october. Hopefully someone knows what their doing.:???:

I don't think it would hurt to have a conservative mule deer doe harvest in Region 4 (note I said conservative), but the best thing that could be done for mule deer in Region 4 is open up a GOS for any WTD,,,,, doe, fawn, buck,,,, doesn't matter.

[dana]

Anyone know what the success rate averages for Region 5 does? They hand out 1000's of LEH's yet are they harvesting that many deer? Like I said earlier, there are many that use the LEH as a backup for meat but take 2 bucks instead. If the locals need 2 deer, 1 buck and 1 doe should work fine should it not? Why do they need a 2 buck limit? You want to increase buck to doe ratios, a easy way to do it is to stop harvesting so many bucks. Right?
As for whitetails, yes they've got them and are killing them. The same goes with Region 3. No, not an easy give me for meat like Region 8 and 4 but they are still a doable hunt. When it comes to Regions 3 and 5, I don't know why the MOE would want anything but to keep the whitetail numbers low. You let them continue to grow like they are and you will have a real mule deer crisis on your hands in no time. They are invasive weeds and should be treated as such within these two Regions. Region 3 has the most liberal whitetail season in the province, but there should also be liberal LEH whitetail doe tags handed out to keep them from taking over.

Unity among the Regions would be most desirable. It would ease presure and keep harvest sustainable and the confusing regs would be simplified. If there is give and take when it comes to season dates, then so be it. It ain't the end of the world if some seasons are extended while others might be shortened. Best case scenerio would be if all 4 Regions adopted the current Region 3 seasons. Worst case would be if all 4 Regions adopted Region 8 or 4 seasons. I believe it would be to the benefit of all hunters if we had a compromise and we had unity amongst the Regions.

[6616]

Anyone know what the success rate averages for Region 5 does? They hand out 1000's of LEH's yet are they harvesting that many deer? Like I said earlier, there are many that use the LEH as a backup for meat but take 2 bucks instead. If the locals need 2 deer, 1 buck and 1 doe should work fine should it not? Why do they need a 2 buck limit? You want to increase buck to doe ratios, a easy way to do it is to stop harvesting so many bucks. Right?
As for whitetails, yes they've got them and are killing them. The same goes with Region 3. No, not an easy give me for meat like Region 8 and 4 but they are still a doable hunt. When it comes to Regions 3 and 5, I don't know why the MOE would want anything but to keep the whitetail numbers low. You let them continue to grow like they are and you will have a real mule deer crisis on your hands in no time. They are invasive weeds and should be treated as such within these two Regions. Region 3 has the most liberal whitetail season in the province, but there should also be liberal LEH whitetail doe tags handed out to keep them from taking over.

Unity among the Regions would be most desirable. It would ease presure and keep harvest sustainable and the confusing regs would be simplified. If there is give and take when it comes to season dates, then so be it. It ain't the end of the world if some seasons are extended while others might be shortened. Best case scenerio would be if all 4 Regions adopted the current Region 3 seasons. Worst case would be if all 4 Regions adopted Region 8 or 4 seasons. I believe it would be to the benefit of all hunters if we had a compromise and we had unity amongst the Regions.

I don't know anything about the success level for does in region 5, but I sure do agree with the rest of this post. WTD not only compete with mule deer for space and forage, but if the WTD population explodes like it's done in regions 4 an 8 it also will encourage an expansion of predators which will in turn hurt mule deer populations.

I would support an "any deer" management stratgey for WTD in BC (Regions 4, 8, 3 and 7B) just like they have in Alberta and Saskatchewan.

[BCrams]

Excellent input.

To further 6616's statement regarding white-tailed deer - I do believe a 2 wt deer limit 1 of each sex won't hurt anything.

I don't know why the Regional bio. of region 5 would not be pushing to open up an elk season? Is he waiting for the population to be well established across to the southern boundary of Reg. 5? Unless there are other political factors involved we don't know about.

It will happen anyways even if they open up the season on them. If the elk can survive the winters here in 7A - they sure will in Reg 5 with less difficulty.

The competition elk will give california bighorns isn't a pleasant thought.

[Gunner]

There has surely been an upswing in predators in Region 8,I don't know if you can blame that on the whitetails,more likely the increase in the moose population.In my area most of the whitetails are fairly safe in people's yards and in the farm fields,bothered by the coyotes and at risk from traffic.The mulies are up the hill,trying to deal with the deep snow,cats,and a resurgent wolf population.They have the harder row to hoe,no doubt! Gunner

[dana]

Part of what folks should maybe consider for region 5 is those folks don't have wt's to hunt, moose are closed and they don't have an elk season.

I can appreciate the 2 deer bag limit in region 5, especially considering they can't shoot anything else. The rest of us can.

So what more can we kill in Region 3??? You aren't seriously thinking that a Spike/Fork moose is a sure way to put meat in the freezer now are ya? The spike/fork season is a freakin joke. It is a money grab, easy way to sell tags with very very very very very few moose being harvested. I'm confident if it went the way of the dodo, there would be very little hunter outcry.

Region 3 has a 2 mule deer limit only one of which can be a buck. Hmmm, means the locals here have to rely on LEH if they want a second deer in the freezer. In reality, Region 5 wants their cake and eat it too. They want a buck for the freezer and then hold their 2nd tag for a trophy buck. It caters to the pseudo trophy hunter that still wants to be a meat hunter. In the age of declining hunter numbers, should we let the small minority within the trophy hunter ranks rule the day????

Again I'll say it. Region 5 is a simple fix. Stop killing too many bucks and you will get your buck to doe ratios back up. 2 mule deer limit only one of which maybe a buck. The pseudo trophy hunter has to $hit or get off the pot. Either he is a trophy hunter and has to pass on the dinks and risk eating tag soup or else he is a meat hunter and should be happy to put a nice tastey small buck in the freezer.

[dana]

Excellent input.

To further 6616's statement regarding white-tailed deer - I do believe a 2 wt deer limit 1 of each sex won't hurt anything.

I don't know why the Regional bio. of region 5 would not be pushing to open up an elk season? Is he waiting for the population to be well established across to the southern boundary of Reg. 5? Unless there are other political factors involved we don't know about.

It will happen anyways even if they open up the season on them. If the elk can survive the winters here in 7A - they sure will in Reg 5 with less difficulty.

The competition elk will give california bighorns isn't a pleasant thought.

Rams,
The elk concern me too. They are showing up in areas they've never been seen before. If we foster that and let them grow we will indeed have a serious issue on our hands. Not only will they over compete the cali's but the muleys will suffer as well. One needs only to look to the states and see the ramifications of great elk numbers and severely declining mule deer numbers.

[Fisher-Dude]

So what more can we kill in Region 3??? You aren't seriously thinking that a Spike/Fork moose is a sure way to put meat in the freezer now are ya? The spike/fork season is a freakin joke. It is a money grab, easy way to sell tags with very very very very very few moose being harvested. I'm confident if it went the way of the dodo, there would be very little hunter outcry.

Region 3 has a 2 mule deer limit only one of which can be a buck. Hmmm, means the locals here have to rely on LEH if they want a second deer in the freezer. In reality, Region 5 wants their cake and eat it too. They want a buck for the freezer and then hold their 2nd tag for a trophy buck. It caters to the pseudo trophy hunter that still wants to be a meat hunter. In the age of declining hunter numbers, should we let the small minority within the trophy hunter ranks rule the day????

Again I'll say it. Region 5 is a simple fix. Stop killing too many bucks and you will get your buck to doe ratios back up. 2 mule deer limit only one of which maybe a buck. The pseudo trophy hunter has to $hit or get off the pot. Either he is a trophy hunter and has to pass on the dinks and risk eating tag soup or else he is a meat hunter and should be happy to put a nice tastey small buck in the freezer.

Are ya thinkin' a doe GOS or a pile of LEHs?

We've simply GOT to open more areas up simultaneously to stop this "targetted pressure" where all of BC's hunters are tearing around the province searching for opportunities, while we look out our windows and see deer/elk/moose walking through our backyards with one too many/one too few points. And it's got to start at the top - Penner, tell Ethier to manage his bios and quit this regional protectionist bullshit. The gov't wants 20,000 new hunters, so they better give people an opportunity to look for something other than a spike/fork moose, 'cause they won't find one.

[6616]

So I guess what we're jointly saying is the Southern Interior Mule Deer strategy:

Needs to be complimented and coordinated with elk, sheep, and white tailed deer management strategies.
Should have standardized management objectives: densities, buck/doe ratios, etc and standardized seasons across all southern interior regions, possibly 7B as well.
Mule deer being by far the most popular species in BC for hunters
can be used more efficiently to maximize opportunity. Perhaps managed for MSY harvest levels maintaining population density at around 60 to 80 % of carrying capacity.
Should consider a 2 deer/1 buck provincial bag limit with over-riding regional bag limits where and when required.
Probably should harvest from all sex and age classes without antler point restrictions which in t urn should only be used when a conservation concern arises requiring a reductiuon in buck harvests.
This is a very productive and useful thread, keep the good ideas coming guys, good job...! This could provide a foundation for unified public input when the time arrives.

[dana]

FD,
I really don't like the idea of GOS on muley does. There is no control and things can go bad in a hurry. I remember when we had a 8 day GOS doe season here in Region 3 about 17 years ago. I honestly saw gutpiles on every single corner of the main FSR near my home. It was a slaughter and it took a long long time to get our deer numbers back up. The only positive that came out of it was we didn't have mass dieoffs during the winter of 96.:roll:
It seems the antlerless LEH's aren't working in Region 5 basically due to the fact that there is probably more out-of-towners putting in and then either not going or taking a buck rather than a doe. There are those that may put in for a moose and then throw in for a doe as well. If they don't draw out moose, the doe tag gets burned. Many of those that do come up to hunt are inexperienced and are worried about Private versus Public Land. Tell me where in the Cariboo can you go without running into a fence? I've known several of these inexperienced out-of-towners that have come home skunked from their doe hunts. When it comes to the locals, many would just prefer to shoot 2 bucks and don't even put in for the doe tags.

So what is the solution to their over carrying capacity of deer? Maybe they need to think outside the box a little. The Peace set precidence by issueing more deer tags, over the provincal baglimit, a few years ago. Now, I didn't like the idea of the timing of the kill in the Peace, but given a fall timing, why can't the Cariboo do something similiar. Issue out antlerless tags during the season that don't go against your Regional Baglimit or Provincial baglimit. Issue them only from the Regional office, so you have a control over how many are being handed out. Do it on a first come, first serve basis. You can shut it off at any time if you felt you have met your target. Maybe make it so each individual is allowed 1 at a time for a max of 3???

[MattB]

Does anyone know what actually is going to happen? Are there going to be any meetings where we the public can come and voice our opinions on this issue.

[dana]

6616,
Moose should be thrown into that mix as well. We either should can the immy seasons all together or we should jointly open up the restrictions. While some don't like the idea of point restrictions, they do serve a purpose. Maybe it's time the southern Regions collectively went with a spike/fork, Tripalm and 10 point season. Even if it was for 5 days. Southern Moose have rebounded from the lows of the early 90's. It is silly that we let the wolves eat them while we wait and wait and wait for the luck of the draw to shine on us.
If one Region goes it alone, it'll crash and burn as everyone will flock there instead of making the long trek north. It needs to be accross the board and pressure will then be minimized.

[Fisher-Dude]

The wolves are REALLY spreading in region 8 now. One Shit Wonder and I met an old gaffer out ice fishing last week that told us about a pack of 4 that scared the crap out of him and his buddy up at 2nd Fly a few weeks ago. The high deer populations are likely attracting them, and the poor moose calves end up paying the price for it too.

[6616]

Does anyone know what actually is going to happen? Are there going to be any meetings where we the public can come and voice our opinions on this issue.

Not for a while anyway Matt. The provincial managers met for an initial meeting but I've heard funding may hold up this process. I would guess they have to meet a few times and hammer out a proposal or some options before the public will be asked for input, and I believe they're along ways from that right now.

Doesn't matter, it will get done sooner or later, and discussions like this will see us better prepared to comment.

[6616]

6616,
Moose should be thrown into that mix as well. We either should can the immy seasons all together or we should jointly open up the restrictions. While some don't like the idea of point restrictions, they do serve a purpose. Maybe it's time the southern Regions collectively went with a spike/fork, Tripalm and 10 point season. Even if it was for 5 days. Southern Moose have rebounded from the lows of the early 90's. It is silly that we let the wolves eat them while we wait and wait and wait for the luck of the draw to shine on us.
If one Region goes it alone, it'll crash and burn as everyone will flock there instead of making the long trek north. It needs to be accross the board and pressure will then be minimized.

You're right, we need a province wide moose management strategy as well (real badly actually) with unified seasons and regulations between the southern regions. There is some work being done in Victoria on policy and procedure, but little in the way of regulations to my knowledge.

[GoatGuy]

So what more can we kill in Region 3??? You aren't seriously thinking that a Spike/Fork moose is a sure way to put meat in the freezer now are ya? The spike/fork season is a freakin joke. It is a money grab, easy way to sell tags with very very very very very few moose being harvested. I'm confident if it went the way of the dodo, there would be very little hunter outcry.

Region 3 has a 2 mule deer limit only one of which can be a buck. Hmmm, means the locals here have to rely on LEH if they want a second deer in the freezer. In reality, Region 5 wants their cake and eat it too. They want a buck for the freezer and then hold their 2nd tag for a trophy buck. It caters to the pseudo trophy hunter that still wants to be a meat hunter. In the age of declining hunter numbers, should we let the small minority within the trophy hunter ranks rule the day????

Again I'll say it. Region 5 is a simple fix. Stop killing too many bucks and you will get your buck to doe ratios back up. 2 mule deer limit only one of which maybe a buck. The pseudo trophy hunter has to $hit or get off the pot. Either he is a trophy hunter and has to pass on the dinks and risk eating tag soup or else he is a meat hunter and should be happy to put a nice tastey small buck in the freezer.

Surprisingly the immature bull harvest is high. In region 8 it's significantly more than double the LEH harvest. However, I agree it probably isn't too terribly relevant to the conversation - just something that would be a great start in Region 5 so that the rest of us (at least in region 8 aren't holding our breath when we're waiting for the bull:cow ratios after flights.

In region 3 you have way more wt's (probably 3X) and for most of the folks it ain't far to chase wt's in 8, 7A or even 4 depending on where you live. Living in Clearwater, Sorrento, Kamloops is a whole lot closer to real white-tail hunting than it is someone in Bill's Puddle or better yet Bella Coola.


Finally, region 5 doesn't really have a problem as far as buck:doe ratio goes, but of course, the conversation doesn't surround needs of wildlife, rather wants/whims of hunters.

Personally, I support hunting up until the point where there could be a concern - currently there isn't in region 5 when it comes to wildlife. There are other regions that could open up harvest and other species that could handle much more harvest and that would help mediate this perceived problem. If I get back to my thoughts, I wonder why haven't these other opportunities been liberalized already? Suppose that's rhetoric........

Some good thoughts here though. I'm quite impressed.

[aggiehunter]

MattB, You can always join in on your local hunter advisary committee. Or as someone mentioned earlier you can read about what the BCWF is promoting in the Outdoor Edge, even before you hear about it at the local BCWF club level. Similar to a corporation, trickle down or top down management.

[dana]

After looking at the regs Region by Region I don't see where any Region has to sacrifice too much to get a unified season. Keeping in mind some of the other issues I've seen fought on this site, be it recruitment and retention, bowhunters versus youth or 4 point only versus anybuck, I've scratched out a rough outline of dates that have give and take from all regions. I'm a deer guy, so I have only done this for deer. Those that know elk, maybe they can come up with something that would be similar.

Maintain 3 deer combined species provincial baglimit.

Mule Deer
Sept 1-9 Either Sex, Any Age Archery only
Sept 10-Nov 20 Youth Antlerless
Sept 10-Oct 31 Any Buck
Nov 1-20 4 Point or better
Nov 1-20 Youth/Sr Any Buck
Nov 21-Dec 10 Any Buck Archery only

3 mule deer (2 buck)provincial baglimit
Regionally, 2 buck baglimit, only 1 of which can be taken outside an archery season.

With these dates, Region 4 and 8 are only increasing their seasons by 10 days for the most part. The early 4 point season has always been the most underutilized season. IMO if a hunter is hunting only for meat, they will kill a buck during the anybuck season anyways. By letting them hunt longer, you aren't killing more deer. It just gets people out enjoying our great outdoors earlier and the firewood getters can kill 2 birds with one stone, which is a great benefit in these hard economic days. The youth get to hunt anydeer for a long period which encourages recruitment. The Sr's can hunt anybuck for a longer time which encourages retention. As the population ages, bad eyesight makes for tough times counting points. The bowhunters can hunt longer, and the added 1 deer baglimit will encourage more to take up archery. Again, encourages recruitment and retention. Plus there is little worry of over harvest as harvest success rates in archery are low as it is. The trophy hunter is accommodated by being able to hunt a good portion of the rut yet the 4 point season keeps harvest success rates lower. Region 5 loses about 10 days off their current non-archery seasons, and Region 3 loses the most with 20 days. By having unified seasons, it encourages hunters to hunt closer to home and not jump around the province chasing seasons. Dispersed hunters will have a better hunting experiences when they don't feel like sardines jammed in a can hunting with crowded conditions and the managers will not have to have to worry about the fear of overharvest. LEH antlerless seasons should be used as well as in extreme measures like Region 5, Regional Antlerless Tags that can exceed Provincial Baglimit.

Whitetail Deer
Sept 1-9 Either sex any age Archery only
Sept 10-Dec 10 Youth/Sr Antlerless
Sept 10-Dec 10 Any buck
Dec 11-Dec 20 Either sex any age Archery only.

3 Whitetail Provincial Baglimit, 2 buck Regional baglimit.

With whitetail populations booming across much of the southern portion of the province we should have liberal season dates, even in Region 3 and Region 5. We should be aggressive keeping whitetails within nontraditional areas at low numbers. Where the whitetail numbers are extreme like some areas of Region 4 and Region 8, we should also include GOS antlerless seasons.

[6616]

After looking at the regs Region by Region I don't see where any Region has to sacrifice too much to get a unified season. Keeping in mind some of the other issues I've seen fought on this site, be it recruitment and retention, bowhunters versus youth or 4 point only versus anybuck, I've scratched out a rough outline of dates that have give and take from all regions. I'm a deer guy, so I have only done this for deer. Those that know elk, maybe they can come up with something that would be similar.

Maintain 3 deer combined species provincial baglimit.

Mule Deer
Sept 1-9 Either Sex, Any Age Archery only
Sept 10-Nov 20 Youth Antlerless
Sept 10-Oct 31 Any Buck
Nov 1-20 4 Point or better
Nov 1-20 Youth/Sr Any Buck
Nov 21-Dec 10 Any Buck Archery only

3 mule deer (2 buck)provincial baglimit
Regionally, 2 buck baglimit, only 1 of which can be taken outside an archery season.

With these dates, Region 4 and 8 are only increasing their seasons by 10 days for the most part. The early 4 point season has always been the most underutilized season. IMO if a hunter is hunting only for meat, they will kill a buck during the anybuck season anyways. By letting them hunt longer, you aren't killing more deer. It just gets people out enjoying our great outdoors earlier and the firewood getters can kill 2 birds with one stone, which is a great benefit in these hard economic days. The youth get to hunt anydeer for a long period which encourages recruitment. The Sr's can hunt anybuck for a longer time which encourages retention. As the population ages, bad eyesight makes for tough times counting points. The bowhunters can hunt longer, and the added 1 deer baglimit will encourage more to take up archery. Again, encourages recruitment and retention. Plus there is little worry of over harvest as harvest success rates in archery are low as it is. The trophy hunter is accommodated by being able to hunt a good portion of the rut yet the 4 point season keeps harvest success rates lower. Region 5 loses about 10 days off their current non-archery seasons, and Region 3 loses the most with 20 days. By having unified seasons, it encourages hunters to hunt closer to home and not jump around the province chasing seasons. Dispersed hunters will have a better hunting experiences when they don't feel like sardines jammed in a can hunting with crowded conditions and the managers will not have to have to worry about the fear of overharvest. LEH antlerless seasons should be used as well as in extreme measures like Region 5, Regional Antlerless Tags that can exceed Provincial Baglimit.

Whitetail Deer
Sept 1-9 Either sex any age Archery only
Sept 10-Dec 10 Youth/Sr Antlerless
Sept 10-Dec 10 Any buck
Dec 11-Dec 20 Either sex any age Archery only.

3 Whitetail Provincial Baglimit, 2 buck Regional baglimit.

With whitetail populations booming across much of the southern portion of the province we should have liberal season dates, even in Region 3 and Region 5. We should be aggressive keeping whitetails within nontraditional areas at low numbers. Where the whitetail numbers are extreme like some areas of Region 4 and Region 8, we should also include GOS antlerless seasons.

I could live with it. The only tweek I might make is to allow variations in the regional bag limit of either 1 or 2 bucks out of a total bag limit of 3 WTD. We need to encourage doe harvest. It's really breeding age does we need to kill to control or limit population expansion and buck doe ratios already suck in some areas.

I won't comment on elk since this is a mule deer stratgey thread, except to say that Region 4 is about to update their Elk Management Plan and they should get the adjacent regions involved to create more of a provincial standard.

[6616]

I have bookmarked this thread and will use these ideas when the BCWF wildlife committee and the RACs have opportunity to comment on the Southern Interior Mule Deer Strategy.

[mcrae]

I like Dana`s post makes allot of sense to me...

[Everett]

Dana that is very well thought out and it even makes sense mayby you should apply for a job in victoria

[Brambles]

I'd just like a longer season in Region 4, or at the bare minimum, standardize the season across the whole region Nov 15th. I'd kill for more..

I'd also like to see Archery from Aug 25 - Sept 4 and rifle open on Sept 5th.

I have no problems with 4 point mulie seasons.

[dana]

Brambles,
When it comes down to it, we all have wish lists but are those wish lists attainable is the million dollar question. Yup, I would love to see a late Aug bowhunt. I've mentioned that a tons of times on this site, but I can't even get the Bowhunters to agree to it in principle. I would love to see things pretty much unchanged here in Region 3. But given the current conditions, I doubt that will happen. If Region 5 cans it's rut hunt and puts the closure at Nov 10th and Regions 4 and 8 don't budge on their seasons, Region 3 is in it alone. It isn't a NIMBY issue. It is a conservation issue. With 1 Region open a month longer than any other southern Region, where do you think the hunting pressure will go? We get a lot of pressure already. Mostly because of hunters chasing the illusive dream that there are monsters behind every tree. I guess I'm partly to blame for that ain't I? ;) You take the out-of-Region pressure that Region 5 has, add in all the Region 5 locals to will do the 1 to 2 hr drive to 3, and you have a recipe for a cluster F*** of epic proportions. I firmly believe it would only take 1 season of going it alone, and Region 3 will also lose the late season. It is that dire. Instead of increasing seasons like they should be to facilitate recruitment and retention, they will be decreasing seasons and making the spiral to destruction all that much easier. It seems the managers themselves are holding back this province. It seems they are the ones that want to see hunters fail. Why else are they being so irrational? Either they work together to solve this problem, or we will see hunting continue to decline as hunter after hunter slips out of our grasp.

[Phreddy]

Unfortunatly I have very little faith in the MOE game counts. Their last count numbered something like 8 griz in the Cascadia area. The actual count is closer to the mid twenties.
There are so many Mulies around that we are sitting in a prime location for the development of Chronic Wasting Disease in our deer pop.

[uraarchr]

Maybe a little off topic but just something else to chew on here while everyone is talking about deer numbers and hunting.I'm seeing a lot more wolves ,coyotes and grizzlies than say 5to10 yrs ago and more.Reading that on hunting blogs and hearing it from people in the hunting community.Yet,a lot of hunters when they see predators in the field don't take them"I don't want to ruin my hunt".I think wolves are really trimming the numbers down .Ive seen a lot of sign this year in reg3,reg4,reg 8 and the three that i saw in reg6(one of which ran into a 180gr MRX).Just remember ;the moose you didnt see today might be the one that got eaten yesterday by the wolf you passed up the day before that.

[Brambles]

Brambles,
When it comes down to it, we all have wish lists but are those wish lists attainable is the million dollar question. Yup, I would love to see a late Aug bowhunt. I've mentioned that a tons of times on this site, but I can't even get the Bowhunters to agree to it in principle. I would love to see things pretty much unchanged here in Region 3. But given the current conditions, I doubt that will happen. If Region 5 cans it's rut hunt and puts the closure at Nov 10th and Regions 4 and 8 don't budge on their seasons, Region 3 is in it alone. It isn't a NIMBY issue. It is a conservation issue. With 1 Region open a month longer than any other southern Region, where do you think the hunting pressure will go? We get a lot of pressure already. Mostly because of hunters chasing the illusive dream that there are monsters behind every tree. I guess I'm partly to blame for that ain't I? ;) You take the out-of-Region pressure that Region 5 has, add in all the Region 5 locals to will do the 1 to 2 hr drive to 3, and you have a recipe for a cluster F*** of epic proportions. I firmly believe it would only take 1 season of going it alone, and Region 3 will also lose the late season. It is that dire. Instead of increasing seasons like they should be to facilitate recruitment and retention, they will be decreasing seasons and making the spiral to destruction all that much easier. It seems the managers themselves are holding back this province. It seems they are the ones that want to see hunters fail. Why else are they being so irrational? Either they work together to solve this problem, or we will see hunting continue to decline as hunter after hunter slips out of our grasp.


Hey if Region 3 is the last one to stay open Late, I'LL BE THERE TOO:razz:.
Big bucks are around every tree in that country, you just keep your eye's open for a short shaved headed guy in a red hoodie with no gun and you'll know your in the right area;-):lol:

[Will]

Just remember ;the moose you didnt see today might be the one that got eaten yesterday by the wolf you passed up the day before that.
Okay is it just me or is this not hilarious..........:biggrin:

[Phreddy]

Maybe a little off topic but just something else to chew on here while everyone is talking about deer numbers and hunting.I'm seeing a lot more wolves ,coyotes and grizzlies than say 5to10 yrs ago and more.Reading that on hunting blogs and hearing it from people in the hunting community.Yet,a lot of hunters when they see predators in the field don't take them"I don't want to ruin my hunt".I think wolves are really trimming the numbers down .Ive seen a lot of sign this year in reg3,reg4,reg 8 and the three that i saw in reg6(one of which ran into a 180gr MRX).Just remember ;the moose you didnt see today might be the one that got eaten yesterday by the wolf you passed up the day before that.

In those imortal words of Ralph Klein in Alberta...........shoot, shovel, and shutup.

[dana]

Anyone have any more input to this discussion???

[6616]

Anyone have any more input to this discussion???

Just this Dana: We just had a discussion at region recently about White Tailed Deer (WTD) management in the EK and some people seem reluctant to step up the harvest levels, but at the same time they're wondering where all the Mule Deer (MD) went. Truth is we have just as many deer as we ever had, it's just that now they're mostly WTD....!

I just want to remind everyone that WTD and MD are competitive species to a large extent, you can only have so many deer in a region depending on carrying capacity. They can be WTD or MD or a combination, but the overall total is fixed by carrying capacity. Trouble is WTD are the better competitor and will eventually displace MD if given half a chance. This is already happening in Region 4E and 8 and could easily happen in Regions 4W, 3 and 5 given enough time.

The success of any Mule Deer Management Stratgey depends to some extent on aggressive harvest stratgies for WTD. Please consider the possibility of an any deer management stratgey for WTD similar to what Alberta and Saskatchewan have.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

WTD are definitely displacing mule deer in areas of Reg 8.

Dana-you may have remembered me mentioning that my Aunt and Uncle living just above Antlers beach? Anywho.....when the first moved in there back before the big die-off in 96/97 they only saw mulies ......in the recovery years following the die-off they only see whities....and tonnes of them.

Certainly would help the mulies to liberalize the whitey season around here.

SSS

[mark]

WTD are definitely displacing mule deer in areas of Reg 8.

Dana-you may have remembered me mentioning that my Aunt and Uncle living just above Antlers beach? Anywho.....when the first moved in there back before the big die-off in 96/97 they only saw mulies ......in the recovery years following the die-off they only see whities....and tonnes of them.

Certainly would help the mulies to liberalize the whitey season around here.

SSS

X2 when I moved here 10 years ago everyone told me whities on the east side of the lake, and mulies on the west. this year I saw more whities than mulies on the west side. :( Im all for a open season on whities, should be 1 buck and 1 doe per season IMO. To some this may not sound like mule deer stradgety talk but it is!

[BCrams]

[quote=6616;407544]Just this Dana: We just had a discussion at region recently about White Tailed Deer (WTD) management in the EK and some people seem reluctant to step up the harvest levels, but at the same time they're wondering where all the Mule Deer (MD) went. Truth is we have just as many deer as we ever had, it's just that now they're mostly WTD....!

Who's reluctant to step up the harvest levels? Ministry bio's or resident hunters from the EK clubs?

Hunters complain about the lack of mule deer but fail to see the source of the problem.

Trouble is WTD are the better competitor and will eventually displace MD if given half a chance. This is already happening in Region 4E and 8 and could easily happen in Regions 4W, 3 and 5 given enough time.

This has already happened in region 7a as well. Out in the Walker FSR area 10 and + years ago, you went hunting and you would see mule deer all the time. You still do, but white-tailed deer now take up the majority of deer seen on a hunt along the Fraser River.

I know people who have religiously hunted this area for 20 yrs and they have seen their hunting camp of up to 8 guys go from having 6 or 7 mule deer and the odd white-tail buck to 5-7 white-tailed deer and 1 or 2 mule deer bucks now.

Out in McBride, it used to be primarily mule deer hunting. Now white-tailed deer dominate the valley bottom.

The success of any Mule Deer Management Stratgey depends to some extent on aggressive harvest stratgies for WTD. Please consider the possibility of an any deer management stratgey for WTD similar to what Alberta and Saskatchewan have.

Again, this is an area hunters do not have an in depth knowledge of. If managers are to make these changes for an aggressive WTD harvest, they also need to agressively educate the game clubs / hunters for them to understand the 'biology' so to speak of what is happening to gain support.

Hunters are their own worst enemy as they appear to know more than the bio's and what should / should not be done. :roll:

[mark]

The success of any Mule Deer Management Stratgey depends to some extent on aggressive harvest stratgies for WTD. Please consider the possibility of an any deer management stratgey for WTD similar to what Alberta and Saskatchewan have.

Again, this is an area hunters do not have an in depth knowledge of. If managers are to make these changes for an aggressive WTD harvest, they also need to agressively educate the game clubs / hunters for them to understand the 'biology' so to speak of what is happening to gain support.

Hunters are their own worst enemy as they appear to know more than the bio's and what should / should not be done. :roll:[/quote]

Ok rams, exactly what do you mean by this?? Is our way of thinking wrong? what are you saying? "In regard to this thread" what in depth knowledge do Bio's have that us "Avg Joe" hunters are missing?
Please enlighten!

[HighCountry]

Just a thought here but how about any deer??? with the same bag limits??
Shoot a doe and your done for that region, or save your tag for a buck. I think it would certainly fix the buck- doe ratio problem! Provide nearly guaranteed success for anyone buying a tag, meat hunters could go home early and save lots of little bucks from certain death!X2 I agree with mark.

[6616]

[quote=6616;407544]Just this Dana: We just had a discussion at region recently about White Tailed Deer (WTD) management in the EK and some people seem reluctant to step up the harvest levels, but at the same time they're wondering where all the Mule Deer (MD) went. Truth is we have just as many deer as we ever had, it's just that now they're mostly WTD....!

Who's reluctant to step up the harvest levels? Ministry bio's or resident hunters from the EK clubs?

Hunters complain about the lack of mule deer but fail to see the source of the problem.

Trouble is WTD are the better competitor and will eventually displace MD if given half a chance. This is already happening in Region 4E and 8 and could easily happen in Regions 4W, 3 and 5 given enough time.

This has already happened in region 7a as well. Out in the Walker FSR area 10 and + years ago, you went hunting and you would see mule deer all the time. You still do, but white-tailed deer now take up the majority of deer seen on a hunt along the Fraser River.

I know people who have religiously hunted this area for 20 yrs and they have seen their hunting camp of up to 8 guys go from having 6 or 7 mule deer and the odd white-tail buck to 5-7 white-tailed deer and 1 or 2 mule deer bucks now.

Out in McBride, it used to be primarily mule deer hunting. Now white-tailed deer dominate the valley bottom.

The success of any Mule Deer Management Stratgey depends to some extent on aggressive harvest stratgies for WTD. Please consider the possibility of an any deer management stratgey for WTD similar to what Alberta and Saskatchewan have.

Again, this is an area hunters do not have an in depth knowledge of. If managers are to make these changes for an aggressive WTD harvest, they also need to agressively educate the game clubs / hunters for them to understand the 'biology' so to speak of what is happening to gain support.

Hunters are their own worst enemy as they appear to know more than the bio's and what should / should not be done. :roll:


It was quite remarkable to hear East Kootenay hunters warning each other about the potential for over-harvesting white tailed deer (considering current population densities) when more aggressive harvest stratgies for WTD were being discussed.

You are 100% right, hunters are very conservative and fearful of screwing up what they see as a good thing with current very good white tail deer (and elk) hunting, and they do not realize the relationship between all these white tails and the decline of mule deer. The result; managers find it very difficult to correct the situation without hunter support.

It's really nothing new is it, for decades hunters second favorite activity after hunting has been to criticize wildlife management. I know it makes a lot of hunters mad when it's stated that hunters are their own worst enemy, but it's so often true. We just cannot seem to shake off the decades old attitudes regarding harvesting females, juveniles, immature animals, or our undying faith in antler point restrictions, etc.

It's unfortunate, education is obviously the key, but it's hard to convince hunters when so many think they know more then the biologists, it's just time we started having a little more faith in professional decisions instead of suspiciously questioning their every decision. In all other areas of life people rely on and believe in professional opinions, why don't hunters......????? They see an event like a winter die-off or a disease event and immediatelly jump to the conclusion that it was due to a bad management decision even when the events are unrelated.

There are just too many social factors at work today. Managers have to work around public sentiment, anti-hunting rhetoric, First Nations objectives, regional advisory committees that feel they should be in charge, as well as critical and non-supportive hunters.

[dana]

WTD are definitely displacing mule deer in areas of Reg 8.

Dana-you may have remembered me mentioning that my Aunt and Uncle living just above Antlers beach? Anywho.....when the first moved in there back before the big die-off in 96/97 they only saw mulies ......in the recovery years following the die-off they only see whities....and tonnes of them.

Certainly would help the mulies to liberalize the whitey season around here.

SSS

We moved from Kelowna to Peachland in 88. We lived right on the edge of the Saddle along Deep Creek. That winter was a bad one. First time in my life I ever saw Okanagan Lake freeze over. The Peachland club had a feeding program for deer that year. We fed over 50 whitetails on our property every night. Back then, the whities were pretty thick, but only in the riparian areas. The muleys were still the kings of the saddle. But that was the start of the decline of the muleys on what used to be the second largest mule deer winter range in the province. I believe it was that next year, they finished the Connector and fenced the entire thing when the muleys were up on the summer range. When the migration hit, they encountered that fence and many beat themselves silly against it hoping they could get through. Oddly enough, many just turned around and went the other way and wintered on the Douglas Lake Ranch. Who would have thunk that the Legacy of Expo and the Social Credit would mess up a migration that was eons old. The whitetails weren't affected as they didn't migrate. Instead, they were allowed to boom. Thus the Saddle is no where near what it once was.

[Will]

We have a good thing with our "ANY Buck" whitetail in region 3........I'd still like to see some LEH's for WT does if they really want to control thier numbers though....more and more of them no doubt about it.

[KevinB]

This seems like as good a time as any, now that folks are talking about educating hunters about mule deer management, to slide in a plug for a book that 6616 suggested to me awhile ago - "Mule Deer Conservation: Issues and Management Strategies". Amazon tries to flog it for 40 bucks US, but you can order it directly from the publishers for $22. I mailed in my order form and had the book in my mailbox within a couple of weeks. It seems as good a place as any, to start learning some more stuff about mule deer. All for about the price of a single year's hunting license, or a box of cheap factory ammo! :smile:

Here's a direct link to the order form, from the Berryman Institute

http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/pdf/MuleDeerOrder%20Form%202008.pdf


Steve, I like some of your ideas. I'd favour even more liberal seasons for WT's but like you say, gotta aim for something realistic, and if we get that then aim for the next thing. I could easily be wrong, but I can't see even a GOS antlerless WT season around here in Region 3, having much effect on the population. Not enough hunters targeting them, and unless they are specifically going after them or know where to look for them, most hunters don't even see many, or any.

[KevinB]

We have a good thing with our "ANY Buck" whitetail in region 3........I'd still like to see some LEH's for WT does if they really want to control thier numbers though....more and more of them no doubt about it.

I keep hearing rumours that they are pretty close to opening up antlerless LEH for WT's, in at least parts of Region 3. I'm hopeful.

As it is the buck harvest is pretty low and most of the whitetails around where I was hunting them this fall, didn't have many hunters chasing them around.

[aggiehunter]

Time for bio's to do their jobs so we don't have opinion based biology from hunt clubs. 6616, good points on the wt md ratios, let kids kill wt does all season. No extension on Mulie dates in Region 8 for conservation sakes.

[Fisher-Dude]

No extension on Mulie dates in Region 8 for conservation sakes.

So I take it you were opposed to your club's proposal for a Nov 11 - Dec 10 bow only season on mule deer then?

[Gunner]

I see aggiehunter is at it again,"for conservations sake".What nonsense,in the 80s mule deer bucks were open in the Okanagon til Nov.30th,(or later,I can't remember that far back!).Nowadays there are less hunters,more deer,and late season access is as always,governed by snow conditions.I would like to see a standardized season ending in Regions 3,4 &8 on November 30th for Mule deer,with a possible extention to Dec. 10th for Whitetails.Allowing an antlerless whitetail tag in those Regions might also help address the Whitetail population increase. Gunner

[one-shot-wonder]

No extension on Mulie dates in Region 8 for conservation sakes.

MD seasons are far to conservative currently in region 8 and need to be liberalized ATLEAST back to pre-1998 season dates.....at the last okBCWF regional meeting 2 MD season liberalization resolutions were passed and 2 WT season liberalization resolutions were passed.
I think the WT seasons should be further liberalized to include more antlerless harvest.

[one-shot-wonder]

I see aggiehunter is at it again,"for conservations sake".What nonsense,in the 80s mule deer bucks were open in the Okanagon til Nov.30th,(or later,I can't remember that far back!).Nowadays there are less hunters,more deer,and late season access is as always,governed by snow conditions.I would like to see a standardized season ending in Regions 3,4 &8 on November 30th for Mule deer,with a possible extention to Dec. 10th for Whitetails.Allowing an antlerless whitetail tag in those Regions might also help address the Whitetail population increase. Gunner

X2

as mentoned in my previous post, atleast we are taking action with some baby steps......

[Gunner]

So I take it you were opposed to your club's proposal for a Nov 11 - Dec 10 bow only season on mule deer then?For sure this is hypocritical and classis NIMBY thinking.This is NOT the kind of proposal that Region 8 needs in regard to Mule deer populations.These people(aggiehunter) seem unable to see beyond their own back yards,and beyond their own needs and wants.It's a big area out there guys, and what works for you might not work for the rest of Region 8. Gunner

[ruttinbuck]

Nowadays there are less hunters,more deer,and late season access is as always,governed by snow conditions.I would like to see a standardized season ending in Regions 3,4 &8 on November 30th for Mule deer,with a possible extention to Dec. 10th for Whitetails.Gunner
X2
With an ammendment to have reg 3,4,5&8 open for any buck{WT or MD} from the 10th of Sept to the 31st of Oct with a 1 buck limit.
Reopen a 4Pt mulie season in reg 3,4,5,&8 from Nov 5 until Nov 30th.Also run an run an any buck whitetail season in reg 3,4,5,&8 from Nov 5th to 30th.
The Dec1st to 10th season in reg 3,4,5,&8 should be an archery any deer season.
This would address all conservation and hunter opportunity concerns.If we need to control the exploding WT population,do it with seasons not LEH.Almost impossble to reverse LEH hunts to open seasons if need be once they are established.RB

[dana]

Time for bio's to do their jobs so we don't have opinion based biology from hunt clubs. 6616, good points on the wt md ratios, let kids kill wt does all season. No extension on Mulie dates in Region 8 for conservation sakes.

*****!!! What? Didn't get a deer last year so you've jumped on the bandwagon that they all must be dead? LOL! There are absolutely no conservation concerns with opening the seasons in 8 and 4 to match up with 3 and 5.

In my opinion it is an easy bandwagon to blame hunters for being their worst enemies, but I just don't buy it. If the managers did what was right and didn't buckle to the NIMBY attitude of a vocal minority, we wouldn't be having these issues.
I will stress it again, we need the managers working together from all southern regions and putting their heads together to come up with good solid solutions. This Lone Ranger mindset has to stop.

[aggiehunter]

One guy says whitetails are imposing on and reducing mule deer numbers which is hard to dispute,while the other guy says we should increase hunting on Mule deer which could be threatened while the other guy suggests having a bow season from Nov. 11 to the Dec 10 th will kill em all cause he doesn't understand the harvest rate or dynamics of bowhunting. One guy figures the snow will stop snowmobilers from hunting bucks in knee deep snow. Phew, glad the bio has the final say!!

[Gunner]

One guy says whitetails are imposing on and reducing mule deer numbers which is hard to dispute,while the other guy says we should increase hunting on Mule deer which could be threatened while the other guy suggests having a bow season from Nov. 11 to the Dec 10 th will kill em all cause he doesn't understand the harvest rate or dynamics of bowhunting. One guy figures the snow will stop snowmobilers from hunting bucks in knee deep snow. Phew, glad the bio has the final say!!We've seen all you quotes before"mule deer could be threatened",and "snowmobilers hunting big bucks",but you are all for your late season bow hunt.You want to hunt YOUR deer when and how you want,and too bad for the rest of Region 8 that has other dynamics running the deer population.I for one consider your arguments self serving,and I sure hope the Region 8 Biologist is looking at the whole Region and not your little Kingdom!People with your views are without a doubt the biggest obstacle to responsible management the Biologists face,and it's not just in Region 8.If the mule deer in your part of Region 8 are "threatened"(which I seriously doubt),hunt elsewhere and leave them alone.Please don't presume to consider mule deer "threatened" in the part of Region 8 I live and hunt in. Gunner

[aggiehunter]

Mule deer were threatened, have been threatened and could be threatened again. That's why we call ourselves conservationists, right! If a guy cant' get a mulie in Region 8 with a gos until Nov. 10th I can't help it. Now you wanna go till Nov. 30 creating a 71 day gos, that's not biologically sound Mule Deer Management in any part of Region 8. All the guys I know are happy with the season now and are getting there deer almost every year. Finally seeing some good deer and guys are pretty happy in Region 8. Some just want more, more, more. The Okanagan Region of the BCWF supported a bowonly on Mulies from Nov. 11-Dec. 10th, I can't help that can I. As I said before it's time for hunt clubs to get back on the ground and do habitat projects and let the bio ,biologize. Sure fun gettin you guys riled up though.

[Gunner]

Hey if mulies are threatened,perhaps we should be lobbying to get rid of that late bow season,after all they're pretty vulnerable that late in the season,what with snowmobilers chasin' them and all!Maybe we should ban hunting them in orchards too,so they can get a square meal!Some people!:shock: Gunner

[358mag]

WTD are definitely displacing mule deer in areas of Reg 8.

Dana-you may have remembered me mentioning that my Aunt and Uncle living just above Antlers beach? Anywho.....when the first moved in there back before the big die-off in 96/97 they only saw mulies ......in the recovery years following the die-off they only see whities....and tonnes of them.

Certainly would help the mulies to liberalize the whitey season around here.

SSS
Back in the early 80's there were lots of whitetail deer up in behind Deep Creek + Antlers Beach ,the old owner of the hotel beside the O SO Good resturant had pictures of 2 nice whitetail bucks that were locked up in a fight that was taken right above the hotel so they been there for few years .

[358mag]

Mule deer were threatened, have been threatened and could be threatened again. That's why we call ourselves conservationists, right! If a guy cant' get a mulie in Region 8 with a gos until Nov. 10th I can't help it. Now you wanna go till Nov. 30 creating a 71 day gos, that's not biologically sound Mule Deer Management in any part of Region 8. All the guys I know are happy with the season now and are getting there deer almost every year. Finally seeing some good deer and guys are pretty happy in Region 8. Some just want more, more, more. The Okanagan Region of the BCWF supported a bowonly on Mulies from Nov. 11-Dec. 10th, I can't help that can I. As I said before it's time for hunt clubs to get back on the ground and do habitat projects and let the bio ,biologize. Sure fun gettin you guys riled up though.
Well said there Aggiehunter
Some days I wonder if this new generation of hunters out there now , that all they want to do is kill kill kill and not leave a few deer on the mountain so that maybe there kids can hunt then too.

[dana]

You should have seen the whitetail sheds I found in the Deep Creek area in the late 80's and early 90's. I had a pile of them, some absolute crankers. The biggest shed I found when I was cutting down a bunch of wild rose bushes behind our shop. It was less than 10 feet from the back of the shop. That bruiser had that wild rose patch as his fortress.
One of the biggest whitetail bucks I ever saw in my life, ran in front of our school bus during my grade 12 year as we were going down Princton Ave. The bus driver slammed on the brakes, just missing the buck and almost every kid on the bus watched that buck in awe. Was a good long bus ride into Westbank and every morning I sat in the back counting whitetails on Princton Ave and muleys and sheep on Drought hill.

[dana]

Well said there Aggiehunter
Some days I wonder if this new generation of hunters out there now , that all they want to do is kill kill kill and not leave a few deer on the mountain so that maybe there kids can hunt then too.


You guys obviously haven't read this thread. It ain't about Region 8 hunters wanting to hunt longer. It is about the chaos of hunters jumping from one Region to the other as one closes and the other is still open. It is about trying to get unity amongst the Regions so that we don't have the preceptions of slaughtervilles in other parts of the province, not just Region 8. Spread out the hunters, not jam them into the small little areas of openings. It is about greater hunter opportunity with very little risk to conservation. It is about getting the old guys back into hunting again and getting the young kids addicted. It is way way bigger than your little piece of the pie that you know in Region 8.

[horshur]

MD seasons are far to conservative currently in region 8 and need to be liberalized ATLEAST back to pre-1998 season dates.....at the last okBCWF regional meeting 2 MD season liberalization resolutions were passed and 2 WT season liberalization resolutions were passed.
I think the WT seasons should be further liberalized to include more antlerless harvest.

How about you show some Data backing that up...it has already been stated that antler saddle is not what it once was...

it doesn't really matter whether BCWF has resolutions in the name of recruitment/retention if the breeder bucks are at risk and ratios get skewed again.....

I do not understand why this is not clear...bow seasons are not very consumptive..thus not a threat for over harvest..and the reason why they allow them.

it has nothing to do with NIBY it has everything do do with those who think there success will improve because of the rut hunt..

Increase of harvest should not fall on the backs of mature bucks.

Frankly it is my oppinion that all the rut hunts should be closed and thus the rest of the seasons could be liberlized for GOS Any buck which would actualy meet the goals of the recruitment/retention camp.



Whitetail is a whole nother fish

[horshur]

Out in McBride, it used to be primarily mule deer hunting. Now white-tailed deer dominate the valley bottom.[/COLOR]

:roll:


Rams who's idea was the mulie doe season out there this year???

can't say I thought that was much of a idea...

what do you say...probably 10 mulies killed to one whitetail..sorta defeats the objective by taking the meat of the mule deer herd and not really the whitetail.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

How about you show some Data backing that up...it has already been stated that antler saddle is not what it once was...

it doesn't really matter whether BCWF has resolutions in the name of recruitment/retention if the breeder bucks are at risk and ratios get skewed again.....

I do not understand why this is not clear...bow seasons are not very consumptive..thus not a threat for over harvest..and the reason why they allow them.

it has nothing to do with NIBY it has everything do do with those who think there success will improve because of the rut hunt..

Increase of harvest should not fall on the backs of mature bucks.

Frankly it is my oppinion that all the rut hunts should be closed and thus the rest of the seasons could be liberlized for GOS Any buck which would actualy meet the goals of the recruitment/retention camp.



Whitetail is a whole nother fish

So, in your opinion, what should we do to harmonize the seasons between the regions in question??

I would think somewhere in the middle??

SSS

[horshur]

So, in your opinion, what should we do to harmonize the seasons between the regions in question??

I would think somewhere in the middle??

SSS

posted it already on this thread
#28 (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=398259&postcount=28) http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/report.php?p=398259)
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HuntingBC Champ
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 888


Re: southern interior mule deer strategy?
well I have one idea and it won't be too popular but it probably result in substainable harvest...that would be a One Mule deer provincial bag limit per hunter.

It would soften regional pressures...allow GOS any buck regionaly and even provide some Trophy buck hunting for those who hold on to there tag.

an LEH doe authorization would not count against your provincial bag limit and in certain cases aditional doe draws could be avaliable if harvest innitiatives are not being met.

In all honestly a GOS either sex would be substainable with the one Mule deer limit province wide.(seems reasonable)

an additional stop gap to any sex GOS would be to have a 4 point season starting november 1st.

have mule deer shut down by November 20

[dana]

Horshur,
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the GOS for both muley does and whitetail does on Privite or within 2 km of Privite? I would believe this probably has more to do with Ranchers and Crop Destruction than it does with overall management of mule deer in the Region eh?

[horshur]

I would further add that a closer during the meat of the rut would make these simple regs even more viable..if it is clear that 4 point seasons are not effective.

[Gunner]

Well said there Aggiehunter
Some days I wonder if this new generation of hunters out there now , that all they want to do is kill kill kill and not leave a few deer on the mountain so that maybe there kids can hunt then too.Last time I looked bag limits hadn't changed!I didn't shoot a mule deer buck this year,couldn't find the one I wanted.Is that kill,kill,kill?I've already posted that as Dana says the Southern Interior Regions should have a common season,precluding people(including myself) from jumping Regions to hunt later in a different Region,there is no reason Region 8 should not be included in that model. The most important thing though is to increase whitetail harvest to decrease competition.That competition will have a larger effect on mule deer in the long run than any extended season Gunner

[horshur]

Horshur,
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the GOS for both muley does and whitetail does on Privite or within 2 km of Privite? I would believe this probably has more to do with Ranchers and Crop Destruction than it does with overall management of mule deer in the Region eh?

you know that encompasses the bulk of the winter range. And the mulie harvest probably higher than whitetail despite the fact whitetail are dominant in ag zones as per Rams post..

[dana]

Horshur,
The simple fact remains that muleys are not currently hurting at all in the province. They are actually doing remarkable well. BC is one of few jurisdictions in North America where they are flourishing. There currently is no need to restrict hunter participation by eliminating the rut hunts. In an age of wildlife surplus, why let the wolves and the lions eat well and the hunters sit on the sidelines????

[dana]

you know that encompasses the bulk of the winter range. And the mulie harvest probably higher than whitetail despite the fact whitetail are dominant in ag zones as per Rams post..

I would be willing to put a bet on it that there were far more whitetails does harvested in that season than muley does. The bulk of the winter range for muleys in that area is not the Ag zones. It is the fir ridges above the Ag zones. Several of those areas have vehicle restrictions too. ;)

[horshur]

I would be willing to put a bet on it that there were far more whitetails does harvested in that season than muley does. The bulk of the winter range for muleys in that area is not the Ag zones. It is the fir ridges above the Ag zones. Several of those areas have vehicle restrictions too. ;)

so why were mulies in the season if they hide out on them fir ridges???

many within 2 kms of the ag zones

I will say it would be best see the harvest numbers... which is why I asked Rams not you.LOL
very good chance I am off base..You drew me in *******!!!

[horshur]

Horshur,
The simple fact remains that muleys are not currently hurting at all in the province. They are actually doing remarkable well. BC is one of few jurisdictions in North America where they are flourishing. There currently is no need to restrict hunter participation by eliminating the rut hunts. In an age of wildlife surplus, why let the wolves and the lions eat well and the hunters sit on the sidelines????

IF they are not hurting then get rid of the point restrictions...everyone wants to hunt the rut but they limit harvest by point restrictions...there is no need to limit harvest if they leave the mature buck to breed...

To me the achilles heel is the damn rut hunt..the vulnerability during the rut..just dump it and let everyone hunt as they choose.

[horshur]

X2
With an ammendment to have reg 3,4,5&8 open for any buck{WT or MD} from the 10th of Sept to the 31st of Oct with a 1 buck limit.
Reopen a 4Pt mulie season in reg 3,4,5,&8 from Nov 5 until Nov 30th.Also run an run an any buck whitetail season in reg 3,4,5,&8 from Nov 5th to 30th.
The Dec1st to 10th season in reg 3,4,5,&8 should be an archery any deer season.
This would address all conservation and hunter opportunity concerns.If we need to control the exploding WT population,do it with seasons not LEH.Almost impossble to reverse LEH hunts to open seasons if need be once they are established.RB

I would comment that the late hunt date as it stands now only accounts for 10% of harvest....bow only would be significantly less.

[ruttinbuck]

I would comment that the late hunt date as it stands now only accounts for 10% of harvest....bow only would be significantly less.
looking to up that percentage by allowing any deer harvest.Another hunter opportunity.RB

[dana]

After looking at the regs Region by Region I don't see where any Region has to sacrifice too much to get a unified season. Keeping in mind some of the other issues I've seen fought on this site, be it recruitment and retention, bowhunters versus youth or 4 point only versus anybuck, I've scratched out a rough outline of dates that have give and take from all regions. I'm a deer guy, so I have only done this for deer. Those that know elk, maybe they can come up with something that would be similar.

Maintain 3 deer combined species provincial baglimit.

Mule Deer
Sept 1-9 Either Sex, Any Age Archery only
Sept 10-Nov 20 Youth Antlerless
Sept 10-Oct 31 Any Buck
Nov 1-20 4 Point or better
Nov 1-20 Youth/Sr Any Buck
Nov 21-Dec 10 Any Buck Archery only

3 mule deer (2 buck)provincial baglimit
Regionally, 2 buck baglimit, only 1 of which can be taken outside an archery season.

With these dates, Region 4 and 8 are only increasing their seasons by 10 days for the most part. The early 4 point season has always been the most underutilized season. IMO if a hunter is hunting only for meat, they will kill a buck during the anybuck season anyways. By letting them hunt longer, you aren't killing more deer. It just gets people out enjoying our great outdoors earlier and the firewood getters can kill 2 birds with one stone, which is a great benefit in these hard economic days. The youth get to hunt anydeer for a long period which encourages recruitment. The Sr's can hunt anybuck for a longer time which encourages retention. As the population ages, bad eyesight makes for tough times counting points. The bowhunters can hunt longer, and the added 1 deer baglimit will encourage more to take up archery. Again, encourages recruitment and retention. Plus there is little worry of over harvest as harvest success rates in archery are low as it is. The trophy hunter is accommodated by being able to hunt a good portion of the rut yet the 4 point season keeps harvest success rates lower. Region 5 loses about 10 days off their current non-archery seasons, and Region 3 loses the most with 20 days. By having unified seasons, it encourages hunters to hunt closer to home and not jump around the province chasing seasons. Dispersed hunters will have a better hunting experiences when they don't feel like sardines jammed in a can hunting with crowded conditions and the managers will not have to have to worry about the fear of overharvest. LEH antlerless seasons should be used as well as in extreme measures like Region 5, Regional Antlerless Tags that can exceed Provincial Baglimit.

Whitetail Deer
Sept 1-9 Either sex any age Archery only
Sept 10-Dec 10 Youth/Sr Antlerless
Sept 10-Dec 10 Any buck
Dec 11-Dec 20 Either sex any age Archery only.

3 Whitetail Provincial Baglimit, 2 buck Regional baglimit.

With whitetail populations booming across much of the southern portion of the province we should have liberal season dates, even in Region 3 and Region 5. We should be aggressive keeping whitetails within nontraditional areas at low numbers. Where the whitetail numbers are extreme like some areas of Region 4 and Region 8, we should also include GOS antlerless seasons.


I think some jumped in to this discussion late and missed some of the points made early. What I proposed was a middle ground. A give and take from all Regions. Region 8 and 4 would only expand their seasons by 10 days. This is by no means a full rut hunt. It is only a half a rut hunt. And it would be done with 4 point restrictions which limits the overall harvests. I was trying to look at all user groups and trying to make everyone for the most part happy. Bowhunters, trophy hunters, meat hunters, and hunter retention and recruitment all would benefit from these unified seasons would they not????

[GoatGuy]

The provincial minimum post-hunt is 20 bucks:100 does.

You can run the buck:doe ratio right down to probably 5:100 without affecting timing or conception. At 10 buck:100 does it definitely isn't a problem.

Age of the bucks doesn't matter.

That's what the science tells us.


The rest of the BS about 'mature bucks' and 'threatened populations' is just that. All that has to do with is the NIMBY attitude and what guys think improves 'big buck' hunting. Garbage.

Buck hunting and doe hunting are two different things. Want to control or bring the population down shoot does - want the population to grow ease up on the doe harvest. Buck harvest is a totally different thing so don't bring it up like it's some sort of a conservation problem.



With a buck:doe ratio of about 20:100 we can have around a 90 day season and harvest around 1000 animals.

With a buck:doe ratios of about 30:100 buck:doe ratio we can have about a 50 day season and harvest around 500 animals.

Of course there is more regulatory complexity and there is more risk with harvesting more animals.


Last time I checked most people wanted to go out, shoot wildlife and put it in their deep freeze.

If you want to put something on your wall get back a longs way from the roads or buy a painting.:tongue:

[dana]

I've said it many times before on this site, if you want to kill big bucks, stop cutting your tag on a little one. It is a personal choice. The more bucks you pass on in a season, the more big ones you might just encounter. But lets be realistic here. Big bucks don't grow behind every tree, regardless of the seasons we have. It takes real effort to get r done and the willingness to eat your tag. Commitment is key and that is on the personal level. You can't bottle that up in a special kind of season. There is no secret magic bullet that makes killing a big buck easy. Instead of dictating ones personal preferences to others, why not start by dictating it to yourself. The wannabe trophy hunter attitude in this province has got to end. There are many many reasons why people hunt. For the most part, for the most hunters, trophy hunting isn't what drives them. Trophy hunters are a small minority in this province and should be treated as such. Again, stop dictating personal preferences and lets encourage hunters of all shapes and sizes to get out there and actually enjoy the great outdoors.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I would like an any buck for muledeer season Sept 10 to Oct .30 in all regions then an Leh Trophy season for 4 points or better in all regions till Nov.30, and drop the provincial bag limit down to two deer.

[horshur]

I would like an any buck for muledeer season Sept 10 to Oct .30 in all regions then an Leh Trophy season for 4 points or better in all regions till Nov.30, and drop the provincial bag limit down to two deer.
you don't want the LEH....guides do cause they have a quota but you don't......

basicaly only the lucky or the well off will hunt then....I am niether.

[Fisher-Dude]

I've said it many times before on this site, if you want to kill big bucks, stop cutting your tag on a little one. It is a personal choice. The more bucks you pass on in a season, the more big ones you might just encounter. But lets be realistic here. Big bucks don't grow behind every tree, regardless of the seasons we have. It takes real effort to get r done and the willingness to eat your tag. Commitment is key and that is on the personal level. You can't bottle that up in a special kind of season. There is no secret magic bullet that makes killing a big buck easy. Instead of dictating ones personal preferences to others, why not start by dictating it to yourself. The wannabe trophy hunter attitude in this province has got to end. There are many many reasons why people hunt. For the most part, for the most hunters, trophy hunting isn't what drives them. Trophy hunters are a small minority in this province and should be treated as such. Again, stop dictating personal preferences and lets encourage hunters of all shapes and sizes to get out there and actually enjoy the great outdoors.

Yup. If you wanna shoot a big buck, go find one and shoot it. If you wanna cut your steaks with a fork, be like me and dump a 2 point in October. There's a buck out there to suit everyone, so go shoot the one you want. Restrictions don't help anyone find the buck they want.

[GoatGuy]

I've said it many times before on this site, if you want to kill big bucks, stop cutting your tag on a little one. It is a personal choice. The more bucks you pass on in a season, the more big ones you might just encounter. But lets be realistic here. Big bucks don't grow behind every tree, regardless of the seasons we have. It takes real effort to get r done and the willingness to eat your tag. Commitment is key and that is on the personal level. You can't bottle that up in a special kind of season. There is no secret magic bullet that makes killing a big buck easy. Instead of dictating ones personal preferences to others, why not start by dictating it to yourself. The wannabe trophy hunter attitude in this province has got to end. There are many many reasons why people hunt. For the most part, for the most hunters, trophy hunting isn't what drives them. Trophy hunters are a small minority in this province and should be treated as such. Again, stop dictating personal preferences and lets encourage hunters of all shapes and sizes to get out there and actually enjoy the great outdoors.

You couldn't be any more right.

Some people feel they should be able to shoot a 170 buck from the truck or within a km of the road every year (that's a trophy to most).

There's one word for it: g r e e d.

[6616]

Some people feel they should be able to shoot a 170 buck from the truck or within a km of the road every year

Yup that seems to be the case, and there is no management strategy that can create that scenario except an extremely restrictive LEH similar the the West Kootenay bull elk stratgey (and I'm willing to bet that's something nearly all of us would oppose). However the hope for that elusive yet unattainable situation seems to be the driver that keeps hunters blindly supporting the 4pt antler restriction for mule deer.

[6616]

I think some jumped in to this discussion late and missed some of the points made early. What I proposed was a middle ground. A give and take from all Regions. Region 8 and 4 would only expand their seasons by 10 days. This is by no means a full rut hunt. It is only a half a rut hunt. And it would be done with 4 point restrictions which limits the overall harvests. I was trying to look at all user groups and trying to make everyone for the most part happy. Bowhunters, trophy hunters, meat hunters, and hunter retention and recruitment all would benefit from these unified seasons would they not????

I think Dana's is a very good and workable proposal, especially the mule deer seasons which I wouldn't change one bit.

The WTD season would work too, but I think I might change it to create a little more aggerssive harvest.

I'm very high on the Alberta and Saskatchewan "any deer" management stratgey for WTD which has proved sustainable even following major winter die-offs:
* harvests from all age and sex classes of the deer population
*maintains high buck/doe ratios.
* maximizes the potential to produce the best trophy bucks the habitat is capable of
* protects mule deer from WTD competition by maintaining WTD at a modest density
* and prevents runaway population explosions of WTD like we have witnessed in areas of regions 4 and 8 and the related increase of predator populations that then beat up on the mule deer.
* better protects the habitat, minimizes the losses in winter die-off events, and shortens recovery times, by keeping populations well below carrying capacity and keeping the habitat in prime condition.
* allows taking advantage of the high reproduction rate of WTD to provide increased hunter opportunity.

The basis of it is to keep the WTD population at 55 to 65 % of carrying capacity so harvest can approach the maximum sustainable yield level.

I don't see why this stratgey would not be sustainable in BC with our current WTD population. I would really like to try at the very least a three or four week segement of the WTD season as an "any deer" season.

This is not motivated by a "kill, Kill, kill, strategy, it's a strategy to maintain a healthy vibrant WTD population, a good buck/doe ratio, and to reduce the stress on mule deer and habitat.

IE:
2 deer regional bag limit for WTD (could be increased to three if harvest objectives not being met), only one of which may be a buck.
Sept 1st to 9th - any deer archery
Sept 10th to Oct 10th - any deer, all hunters.
Oct 11th to Nov 30th - bucks only, all hunters.
Dec 1st to 10th - any deer archery only.

The length of the "any deer" portion could be adjusted to meet the target harvest of antlerless WTD to allow reaching and maintaining the population density objective.

This is not necessarily a stand alone management stratgey for deer alone. To ensure habitat viability it has to be coordinated with elk management in the East Kootenay, possibly with moose management in regions 3 and 5, and also with domestic cattle grazing management.

[shortroot]

you don't want the LEH....guides do cause they have a quota but you don't......

basicaly only the lucky or the well off will hunt then....I am niether.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe GO's have a qouta on deer. Same with black bear. They manage these species on a territory by territory basis, do they not. They set self imposed qoutas.

[one-shot-wonder]

How about you show some Data backing that up...it has already been stated that antler saddle is not what it once was...

Antler's Sattle MU 8-08
Hunter Day's/kill
1987 - 16
1988 - 14
1989 - 17
1990 - 15
1991 - 19
1992 - 16
1993 - 20
1994 - 20
1995 - 22
1996 - 21
1997 - 30
1998 - 28
1999 - 30
2000 - 31
2001 - 27
2002 - 27
2003 - 23
2004 - 19
2005 - 19
2006 - 16

but since this isn't an Antler's Sattle mule deer strategy, here are the harvest stats of the all of region 8 from '87 - '06

Hunter Day's/kill
1987 - 20
1988 - 15
1989 - 17
1990 - 16
1991 - 20
1992 - 16
1993 - 24
1994 - 23
1995 - 25
1996 - 24
1997 - 33
1998 - 39
1999 - 29
2000 - 30
2001 - 25
2002 - 26
2003 - 22
2004 - 20
2005 - 16
2006 - 21

It appears we are back to the numbers of the early nineties......so should the season dates.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Actually Antler's Saddle is in 8-08 but it should not be much different;).

SSS

[horshur]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe GO's have a qouta on deer. Same with black bear. They manage these species on a territory by territory basis, do they not. They set self imposed qoutas.

under LEH they sure would.

[horshur]

Antler's Sattle MU 8-11
Hunter Day's/kill
1987 - 28
1988 - 19
1989 - 24
1990 - 26
1991 - 24
1992 - 34
1993 - 26
1994 - 30
1995 - 24
1996 - 19
1997 - 32
1998 - 42
1999 - 35
2000 - 25
2001 - 19
2002 - 40
2003 - 23
2004 - 47
2005 - 13
2006 - 28

but since this isn't an Antler's Sattle mule deer strategy, here are the harvest stats of the all of region 8 from '87 - '06

Hunter Day's/kill
1987 - 20
1988 - 15
1989 - 17
1990 - 16
1991 - 20
1992 - 16
1993 - 24
1994 - 23
1995 - 25
1996 - 24
1997 - 33
1998 - 39
1999 - 29
2000 - 30
2001 - 25
2002 - 26
2003 - 22
2004 - 20
2005 - 16
2006 - 21

It appears we are back to the numbers of the early nineties......so should the season dates.

actualy with those stats I don't see why you would need the later season..seems everyone is doing pretty fine as is...least it is not much different than before.

I think you want the late hunt to target big deer.

[mark]

actualy with those stats I don't see why you would need the later season..seems everyone is doing pretty fine as is...least it is not much different than before.

I think you want the late hunt to target big deer.

That is exactly the mindset of the local BIO! :mad:

Wouldnt the later season help to harmonize the seasons of the lower regions??? Or are you suggesting we shut down region 3 on nov.10 also, as Im sure most could bag a deer by then.

[horshur]

That is exactly the mindset of the local BIO! :mad:

Wouldnt the later season help to harmonize the seasons of the lower regions??? Or are you suggesting we shut down region 3 on nov.10 also, as Im sure most could bag a deer by then.


you just read Giest's interview..what do you think???

is Giest full of shit??

[one-shot-wonder]

actualy with those stats I don't see why you would need the later season..seems everyone is doing pretty fine as is...least it is not much different than before.

I think you want the late hunt to target big deer.

Seems everyone is doing fine...... especially the MD, so open up for more opportunity!

The only difference between the late 80's early 90's, is we have about half the resident hunters we use to. Therefore half the MD are being shot than before. Seems to me than the herd sizes are at or near carrying capacity.

In my eyes there is no reason not to liberalize these season dates, improving opportunity solely for the purpose of retention & recruitment as well as management of herd sizes.

[boxhitch]

Increased opportunity may or may not equate to increased hunter numbers. I don't think a new hunter looks at the calendar and says no, the season doesn't fit.
It may not even effect success rates. Most guys will report taking twenty days, no matter when they are. Its the way the questionaires ask info.

Enforcement - thats the reason seasons should be harmonized.

[GoatGuy]

actualy with those stats I don't see why you would need the later season..seems everyone is doing pretty fine as is...least it is not much different than before.

I think you want the late hunt to target big deer.

There are several benefits but so long as we're meeting the needs of the species does it matter when the season starts/ends?

[6616]

you just read Giest's interview..what do you think???

is Giest full of shit??

Should we even dare to ask ourselves that question..?

If one doesn't choose to believe guys like Val Giest, Bert Brink, Ian McTaggart-Cowan ,,,who the heck are we gonna believe....there's no one on earth better qualified....????

Which of us are even remotely qualified to answer that question...?

[mark]

you just read Giest's interview..what do you think???

is Giest full of shit??

I would never accuse someone as renowned as he, to be "full of sh!t"
BUT some of the things he said in there make no sense, mulies dont tolerate elk????? Mulies dont tolerate living among humans???? LMAO. Some neighborhoods they are like pets around here! As for hybrids, lets not even go there!

You didnt really answer my question, but more so changed the subject??? Lost for words? Why rip on OSW's idea when it seems like a good one!

[dana]

Geist is right on the mark. All the more reason we need to be aggressive with whitetails in 8 and 4 and not let them gain ground in 3 and 5. If you read Geist's book, Mule Deer Country, you'll see that the hybrid theory only occurs in areas of low mule deer buck to doe ratios and high whitetail buck to doe ratios.
His comments regarding the need of mature breeding class muleys are very true. This is why Region 5 is in the pickle they are in. The rut hunts aren't as hard on the older age class bucks as one would think. It is instead hard on the younger age class bucks. They are the ones who are desperately trying to get a piece of tail and they loose all brain cells to do it. Region 5 screwed up big time by opening up the 'Any Buck' season to include the rut. Those young bucks have been getting hammered hard by BC hunters, especially considering many have situated their holiday time to overlap the Anybuck season and the 4 point or better season, thus killing 2 bucks in one trip. For the most part, the 4 points that are killed are also young bucks, 2 or 3 year olds. They are not your prime breeding bucks. By allowing a 2 buck limit and allowing anybuck harvest during the rut, the young bucks have taken the hardest hit. But....the young bucks are the ones that are your future breeders. By whacking them hard like Region 5 has, they have very little recruitment for the mature breeders. Sure bucks can breed at young ages, but that isn't the way nature indends it. It isn't just hunters that desire big antlers, does do too. Does look at antlers as the outward expression of health. They want to be bred by the biggest buck as he will help her to produce healthy twin fawns of optimum size. If you don't allow bucks to reach their potential, the doe has no clue as to the health of her suiter. If she can't find a big mature buck, a small one will eventually breed her. But not her choice. The little bucks will chase and chase and chase her and will wear her down, just as they will wear themselves down. That doesn't bode well for a hard winter now does it? Copulation is later thus the fawns are born later in the spring, thus they are smaller and have a harder time coping within their first winter. Good buck to doe ratios are important, but having big mature bucks in that ratio is more important for the overall health of the herd. This is why Region 5 is in the pickle they are in. And because of poor management decisions a few years ago, they are now at the point of caning the rut hunt all together, which will drastically effect Region 3's rut hunt. The 4 point or better seasons are used for a purpose. They restrict hunter's ablities, handicap them, and give a buck an edge when he's most vulnerable, during the rut. The time it takes to count points might be the split second a buck needs to wise up and head for dodge. When it boils down to it, a big ol' mature buck has 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 years under his belt at surviving hard winters, dangerous highways, lions, wolves, and hunters. He doesn't get old by being dumb. BC hunters don't whack and stack the big boys during the rut. This is why Region 3 has such a good track record with it's mule deer. We've had the 4 point or better seasons for almost 20 years now. And we still have good healthy mature bucks breeding does.
As for his comments regarding elk, I think many of you need to do some research on the declining mule deer numbers in much of the western states and the exploding elk numbers. Elk outcompete every time. Mule deer are pushed to the fringe habitat where feed isn't as good and if a winter is bad, they die while the elk eat them out of house and home. Given the record numbers of elk in the EK, this could also be a contributing factor to why muley numbers ain't what they used to be.

[horshur]

[quote=mark;409386

You didnt really answer my question, but more so changed the subject??? Lost for words? Why rip on OSW's idea when it seems like a good one![/quote]


hey....a rut hunt is not a meat hunt..it is a trophy hunt.....unless there are those who see a dehydrated...hormone laden...skinny...and smelly carcass as a delicatesy.

got to quit fooling ourselves about this......this has little to do towards the hunter recruitment and retention mantra so popular right now.

OSW's numbers suggest it is similiar now with the shorter season anyway so what would be the purpose really???

and in light of Giest interview... we should be protecting our larger bucks who are a bit more vulnerable during the Rut.

[dana]

Like I said in my proposal, I tried to cater to everyone, including trophy hunters, as many would consider me to be one. ;) Just like my coments regarding trophy hunters not pushing their agenda, other hunters shouldn't push their agendas either. Instead of giving one user group the whole pie, isn't it better that all user groups get their own piece of the pie?
If you look at what I proposed, me, the trophy hunter, takes the biggest hit. If the stars aligned and common sense prevailed and the regional managers unified their seasons, the trophy season that Region 3 is famous for, takes the biggest hit, right? So that is me, the selfish trophy hunter, giving up one of his favorite times to hunt, so that we can get some unity amongst regions and user groups.

In the end though, you'll probably see the Lone Ranger mentality continue, the Regional Managers won't work out a unified solution, hunters will take the blame for the managers inactions (the mantra "Hunter's are their biggest enemy" will be continued to be sung) and Region 5 will indeed take the measures to fix their own screw up and they will can the rut hunt indefinately, thus putting huge pressure on Region 3, which in turn will can it's rut hunt a year later. The Regional Managers of 4 and 8 will sit on their hands and do nothing and Horshur will get what he wants without needing to write a single letter. It will just happen. And we as hunters of this province will loose yet another opportunity and more will loose faith in the system and more will just walk away from the tradition.

[horshur]

ROTFLMASO-- no you didn't..you Know which dates are the best and they still there for you..Full of shit you are.

[dana]

Hmmm, which was the day that MNT fell??? Was it not Dec 10th??? While most hunters have given up or tagged out, I have found that the last week of the season to be one of the most productive weeks for hunting monsters. You know that too, and you'd probably kill more big bucks if you actually focused on the task at hand instead of chasing lions. That right there is the real reason you want the rut hunt gone ain't it? ;)

[Fisher-Dude]

The 4 point season has not been around for 20 years. It was brought in in 1998. It was any buck all season right through to Nov 30 or later, with twice the number of hunters, and REAL winters with good early snowfalls for decades, and we had mule deer in great numbers.

You guys really crack me up when you think you need short seasons, and when you think mule deer can't be hunted in the rut, or you'll run out of deer. It's proven that optimal buck:doe is 20:100, and can go to 10:100 or lower post-hunt and still have conception rates that sustain populations. Region 5 is at 18:100 - where the hell is the problem? There isn't one, except a problem caused by outfitters who want trophy only hunts to discourage YOU from hunting in their areas. Don't buy their bullshit...it's all political.

It doesn't matter what size the breeding buck is, the genetics are the same in a young 2 point as they are in a booner. How many times do we have to repeat that 4 point seasons do not make bigger or more deer? Heck Dana, your wife didn't chose a booner, yet she's got a couple of great kids! ;)

[horshur]

Hmmm, which was the day that MNT fell??? Was it not Dec 10th??? While most hunters have given up or tagged out, I have found that the last week of the season to be one of the most productive weeks for hunting monsters. You know that too, and you'd probably kill more big bucks if you actually focused on the task at hand instead of chasing lions. That right there is the real reason you want the rut hunt gone ain't it? ;)

tell me how many bucks you have killed after your proposed closure...my memory is dim however I don't think it is more than two.
LOL.

Steve you are full of it :lol:

[dana]

FD,
Didn't I say Region 3 has had the 4 point season for close to 20 years? Again stop being a NIMBY and just thinking about Region 8. ;)

And reread my point about why big mature breeding bucks are important. Maybe you should research the dynamics of antlers and why members of the deer family have them. They are not for self defense. They are strictly for breeding purposes. It is how a doe knows what kind of genetics her suiter has. Is he strong and healthy, is he weak and puny? When the only bucks around young and don't have their antlers grown to full potential, how is she to know if the genetics are good or bad or indifferent?

[dana]

Horshur,
I've killed plenty of bucks after the 20th. Heck, when I used to get 3 weeks vacation every year I used to book that last week off religously didn't I? And if you really want to get picky, I killed my biggest buck on the 9th of Nov, 1992. The first day of 4 point or better season that year. So, my best buck was killed within the timeframe that we'll probably be seeing in the future, a Nov 10th closure.

[dana]

FD,
I also think your memory is fading in your old age as you stated that it was anybuck through till Nov 30 prior to 98. Actually, having grown up in Region 8 I never recall a Nov 30 mule deer closure. It was always Nov 10th. I don't think it changed after I left in 92 either as I had plenty of Okanagan friends hunting with me on Remembrance Day right after their season closed. I remember when they changed the Christian Valley muley season to end on Oct 31 due to migration issues. I remember hunting muleys with a bow up on the Saddle during late Nov. I also remember early 4 point or better seasons up in the Monashees when I was just a brand new hunter at age 10, 11 and 12.

[frenchbar]

It will be a shitty day for this muley nut if they shut it down nov 10th in reg 3! The last few yrs around here in the heart of muley country ive never seen so many buckswhich makes me beleive the mule deer are doing pretty dam good .and with the nice winter we are having here bodes well for even better numbers in 09.

[Fisher-Dude]

FD,
I also think your memory is fading in your old age as you stated that it was anybuck through till Nov 30 prior to 98. Actually, having grown up in Region 8 I never recall a Nov 30 mule deer closure. It was always Nov 10th. I don't think it changed after I left in 92 either as I had plenty of Okanagan friends hunting with me on Remembrance Day right after their season closed. I remember when they changed the Christian Valley muley season to end on Oct 31 due to migration issues. I remember hunting muleys with a bow up on the Saddle during late Nov. I also remember early 4 point or better seasons up in the Monashees when I was just a brand new hunter at age 10, 11 and 12.

I didn't say region 8. I was referring to region 3 being open to Nov 30 (or Dec 10?) before 1998 for any buck. It was down this way anyway, not sure about Clearwater's MUs.

Region 8 was any buck Sep 10 to Nov 30 until 1980, then it went any buck to Nov 15 until 1998, when it was clawed back further to 4 point Sep 10 - 30, any buck Oct 1 - Oct 20 and 4 point Oct 21 to Nov 10.

8-12 to 8-15 have always had an earlier (Oct 31 now) closure as far back as I can remember.

[Jelvis]

No hunting in the snow fellas, if they make you quit on Nov long weekend, it will be a sad day for lots but some will think it's better for the rut crazed muley buck to have less hunting pressure during the vulnerable time of the muley rut.
Another thing leh mule deer doe in november when rut is on, why not make leh antlerless mule deer in October.
I'm only thinking about it but it might not work as good for some reason.
Jel-mule deer antlerless in october in 3, would save a buck or two.

[frenchbar]

I dont think theres as many hunters out hunting muleys after the 15th of nov as most would beleive,not from what ive observed anyways in my neck of the woods ,i hardly run into any hunters after that time.jmo

[GoatGuy]

FD,
I also think your memory is fading in your old age as you stated that it was anybuck through till Nov 30 prior to 98. Actually, having grown up in Region 8 I never recall a Nov 30 mule deer closure. It was always Nov 10th. I don't think it changed after I left in 92 either as I had plenty of Okanagan friends hunting with me on Remembrance Day right after their season closed. I remember when they changed the Christian Valley muley season to end on Oct 31 due to migration issues. I remember hunting muleys with a bow up on the Saddle during late Nov. I also remember early 4 point or better seasons up in the Monashees when I was just a brand new hunter at age 10, 11 and 12.

That isn't what the hunting regulations show - not quite accurate. Pre 98 was a Nov 15th closure. Farther back you go longer the season.

There was a 4 pt or better early season for a couple of years however it ran from Sept 1-10.

[Fisher-Dude]

I dont think theres as many hunters out hunting muleys after the 15th of nov as most would beleive,not from what ive observed anyways in my neck of the woods ,i hardly run into any hunters after that time.jmo

Same here. Actually, with most regions having a one muley limit, lots of guys are either tagged out or have a nagging wife that puts the clamps on his 3 months of fun. One of my huntin' buddies risks divorce every time I try to get him to scoot over to region 3 for a late Nov hunt. :p

[GoatGuy]

Geist is right on the mark. All the more reason we need to be aggressive with whitetails in 8 and 4 and not let them gain ground in 3 and 5. If you read Geist's book, Mule Deer Country, you'll see that the hybrid theory only occurs in areas of low mule deer buck to doe ratios and high whitetail buck to doe ratios.
His comments regarding the need of mature breeding class muleys are very true. This is why Region 5 is in the pickle they are in. The rut hunts aren't as hard on the older age class bucks as one would think. It is instead hard on the younger age class bucks. They are the ones who are desperately trying to get a piece of tail and they loose all brain cells to do it. Region 5 screwed up big time by opening up the 'Any Buck' season to include the rut. Those young bucks have been getting hammered hard by BC hunters, especially considering many have situated their holiday time to overlap the Anybuck season and the 4 point or better season, thus killing 2 bucks in one trip. For the most part, the 4 points that are killed are also young bucks, 2 or 3 year olds. They are not your prime breeding bucks. By allowing a 2 buck limit and allowing anybuck harvest during the rut, the young bucks have taken the hardest hit. But....the young bucks are the ones that are your future breeders. By whacking them hard like Region 5 has, they have very little recruitment for the mature breeders. Sure bucks can breed at young ages, but that isn't the way nature indends it. It isn't just hunters that desire big antlers, does do too. Does look at antlers as the outward expression of health. They want to be bred by the biggest buck as he will help her to produce healthy twin fawns of optimum size. If you don't allow bucks to reach their potential, the doe has no clue as to the health of her suiter. If she can't find a big mature buck, a small one will eventually breed her. But not her choice. The little bucks will chase and chase and chase her and will wear her down, just as they will wear themselves down. That doesn't bode well for a hard winter now does it? Copulation is later thus the fawns are born later in the spring, thus they are smaller and have a harder time coping within their first winter. Good buck to doe ratios are important, but having big mature bucks in that ratio is more important for the overall health of the herd. This is why Region 5 is in the pickle they are in. And because of poor management decisions a few years ago, they are now at the point of caning the rut hunt all together, which will drastically effect Region 3's rut hunt. The 4 point or better seasons are used for a purpose. They restrict hunter's ablities, handicap them, and give a buck an edge when he's most vulnerable, during the rut. The time it takes to count points might be the split second a buck needs to wise up and head for dodge. When it boils down to it, a big ol' mature buck has 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 years under his belt at surviving hard winters, dangerous highways, lions, wolves, and hunters. He doesn't get old by being dumb. BC hunters don't whack and stack the big boys during the rut. This is why Region 3 has such a good track record with it's mule deer. We've had the 4 point or better seasons for almost 20 years now. And we still have good healthy mature bucks breeding does.
As for his comments regarding elk, I think many of you need to do some research on the declining mule deer numbers in much of the western states and the exploding elk numbers. Elk outcompete every time. Mule deer are pushed to the fringe habitat where feed isn't as good and if a winter is bad, they die while the elk eat them out of house and home. Given the record numbers of elk in the EK, this could also be a contributing factor to why muley numbers ain't what they used to be.

Not accurate either. Studies out of pretty much every State indicates conception is not affected.

“within the range of sex ratios studied (10/100 to 60/100) , there does not appear to be a threshold ratio for mule deer that is associated with a drastic decline in young:female ratios.”


“based on commonly employed population surveys, we conclude that increasing post-season sex ratios will have little if any impact of subsequent population productivity.”

Effect of adult sex ratio on mule deer and elk productivity in Colorado JWM 65:543-551



There's a book out there it's called Mule Deer Management Strategies. Pretty much outlines every major study done. It's a good read.



Region 5 isn't in a pickle - there's no conservation concern. Moving to a 4pt season on Nov 1 will straighten the problem out ASAP.

[frenchbar]

Same here. Actually, with most regions having a one muley limit, lots of guys are either tagged out or have a nagging wife that puts the clamps on his 3 months of fun. One of my huntin' buddies risks divorce every time I try to get him to scoot over to region 3 for a late Nov hunt. :pAfter the nov 11 long weekend things get pretty quiet around here,which is fine by me:smile: then again i find the best muley hunting to be from nov 1st to nov 10th.

[horshur]

Goat you are ignoring what Giest suggested regarding the larger Mulies.

What was brought about years ago was meant to protect breeding bucks.

[dana]

He is also ignoring basic biology of why deer have antlers in the first place. Just because some jurisdictions have sustainable pops with younger breeding bucks, use Montana as an example, doesn't mean that the overall health of the herd is good. As has been stated many times by 6616, a healthy population has deer of all age classes. It should also be noted that many states that have young breeders, don't have the harsh winters of deep snow and extreme cold combinations that BC is known for. A runt breds a doe and produces a runt, will the offspring do as well in a tuff winter?

It is comical that there is a certain distain for 4 point only seasons from some. In reality, this is just the wanna-be trophy hunter wanting things easy. I really want to kill a big buck but the big bucks seem to slip away like ghosts when I have to count points, therefore, just open er up and if it looks big it's going down. If it happens to be a 3 no biggy. I'm still king $hit trophy hunter that can brag to his buddies that I kill big bucks. Again, wanting easy trophies without the personal sacrifice. Horshur is right, the rut hunt is not a meat hunt. If you want meat, there is plenty of good tasteing meat avaible in the early seasons. Time for hunters to $hit or get off the pot. Either you are a trophy hunter and you commit and work your ass off to get r done, fully knowing that you may eat tag soup year after year to accomplish your goal or you aren't.

[horshur]

this is a discussion board on the internet by several wannabe armchair Bios, staticians, and theoriests.LOL

I don't think any of us have any influence of any regard nor should we.

I hope the regional bosses can come to a sensible resolution without special interest interference hobbling the majority of BC hunters.

[BCrams]

Region 5 isn't in a pickle - there's no conservation concern. Moving to a 4pt season on Nov 1 will straighten the problem out ASAP.



It is the best solution right now and hopefully one which is implemented.

I still can't get my head around the previous change. Why change something if it wasn't broken?

Personal and political agenda's need to be put aside in favour of what works best for all hunters and hunter opportunity.

[Gateholio]

This is almost as entertaining as a sheep thread..;)

[GoatGuy]

Goat you are ignoring what Giest suggested regarding the larger Mulies.

What was brought about years ago was meant to protect breeding bucks.

I'm not ignoring, I'm saying the science proves otherwise.

When you introduce wt's to the equation the problem changes.

Maybe we should be looking at managing wt's more actively than md?

Manitoba has had limited mule deer hunting (I think the LEH has no been cancelled) and it hasn't done a damn thing for them.

[GoatGuy]

He is also ignoring basic biology of why deer have antlers in the first place. Just because some jurisdictions have sustainable pops with younger breeding bucks, use Montana as an example, doesn't mean that the overall health of the herd is good. As has been stated many times by 6616, a healthy population has deer of all age classes. It should also be noted that many states that have young breeders, don't have the harsh winters of deep snow and extreme cold combinations that BC is known for. A runt breds a doe and produces a runt, will the offspring do as well in a tuff winter?

It is comical that there is a certain distain for 4 point only seasons from some. In reality, this is just the wanna-be trophy hunter wanting things easy. I really want to kill a big buck but the big bucks seem to slip away like ghosts when I have to count points, therefore, just open er up and if it looks big it's going down. If it happens to be a 3 no biggy. I'm still king $hit trophy hunter that can brag to his buddies that I kill big bucks. Again, wanting easy trophies without the personal sacrifice. Horshur is right, the rut hunt is not a meat hunt. If you want meat, there is plenty of good tasteing meat avaible in the early seasons. Time for hunters to $hit or get off the pot. Either you are a trophy hunter and you commit and work your ass off to get r done, fully knowing that you may eat tag soup year after year to accomplish your goal or you aren't.

What is the percentage of older age class bucks that is required?

[horshur]

I'm not ignoring, I'm saying the science proves otherwise.

When you introduce wt's to the equation the problem changes.

Maybe we should be looking at managing wt's more actively than md?

Manitoba has had limited mule deer hunting (I think the LEH has no been cancelled) and it hasn't done a damn thing for them.

Jessie...there have been whitetails in the north Thompson for more than 70 years. Local band has always hunted them and has a oral history that goes back more than one generation of hunting them on the river flats.

they hunt deer not antlers as a general rule

Numbers on a paper cause peripheral vison loss and shortsightedness and are flawed unless all the data is taken into account....it never is..or could be...nature of science.

when I see the sheer number of deer that die every winter on the roads,or by wolves,coyotes,lions,hung up in fences..ect it is clear that we(hunters) could utilize more of the deer if we would let go of our preconcieved notions of hunting only antlers...

[GoatGuy]

Jessie...there have been whitetails in the north Thompson for more than 70 years. Local band has always hunted them and has a oral history that goes back more than one generation of hunting them on the river flats.

they hunt deer not antlers as a general rule

Numbers on a paper cause peripheral vison loss and shortsightedness and are flawed unless all the data is taken into account....it never is..or could be...nature of science.

when I see the sheer number of deer that die every winter on the roads,or by wolves,coyotes,lions,hung up in fences..ect it is clear that we(hunters) could utilize more of the deer if we would let go of our preconcieved notions of hunting only antlers...

I think we agree on this.

[358mag]

This is almost as entertaining as a sheep thread..;)
almost getting the but still a ways to go

[dana]

What is the percentage of older age class bucks that is required?

Pretty hard to answer this question, especially considering BC doesn't have much of an idea on deer counts period. We just don't have the open spaces and classic sage/grasslands winter ranges that other Rocky Mnt states like WY, UT, CO and ID have. The grasslands of the Chilcotin, Fraser and Thompson are very small considering the landbase of the watersheds. BC deer are very timber oriented. They know that if they go out in the open they put themselves at a higher risk. I have hunted the open country of the Fraser and Chilcotin many a time and it is actually amazing to watch the bucks hug the timber, expose themselves only the first 5 mins of daylight or last 5 mins, be pretty much noctural with their feeding, and if they do expose themselves in daylight, it is a fullout run across any opening until they reach the safety of the timber edge where they then relax. So with these issues, it doesn't lend itself very well to productive deer counts in the winter now does it? So it is a best guess situation for pop counts and buck to doe ratios ain't it?
It isn't rocket science though to know if the bulk of the bucks killed in hunting season are young, and you have seasons where you jam tons of hunters into a small little area where the bulk of the killing is done, that your older buck recruitement will be drastically affected. Young bucks need to be able to grow into older bucks. Read Geist. Prime breeders are not your young bucks. So if you are running low buck to doe ratios, you better hope that there is at least 2 mature bucks per hundred does.

[Jelvis]

I think you need 10 percent of the mule deer population to be breeders, mature dominant bucks 3 and a half years and up, accepted by estrus females and therefore allowed to mount.
So if your local area carries a population of 400 mule deer, 40 of those should ideally be mature bucks, that the doe will accept as a father of her fawns and choose him to be the stud. Ten percent is good, you won't see those ten percent as a whole but might see a few in the area you hunt. This is what I was taught by reading studies by bio's and hunters. Ten bucks out of 100 deer population are able to dominate the local scene. POW!
Jel-sounds bout right?

[dana]

Jelly,
That sounds like a good number for trophy hunting, not sure if it actually needs to be that high to maintain the health of the herd. A mature buck can breed well over 10 does per fall. I seem to recall a mature buck being able to breed 30 does? Not sure if I'm correct on that or not.

[GoatGuy]

So if you are running low buck to doe ratios, you better hope that there is at least 2 mature bucks per hundred does.

Mature bucks being class IV to you?

2:100 does you're saying?

That's pretty much what they've got in the MUs that have been censused in region 5 - they're shy by a couple of class IV bucks and they did their counts during daylight from what I hear.

[GoatGuy]

I think you need 10 percent of the mule deer population to be breeders, mature dominant bucks 3 and a half years and up, accepted by estrus females and therefore allowed to mount.
So if your local area carries a population of 400 mule deer, 40 of those should ideally be mature bucks, that the doe will accept as a father of her fawns and choose him to be the stud. Ten percent is good, you won't see those ten percent as a whole but might see a few in the area you hunt. This is what I was taught by reading studies by bio's and hunters. Ten bucks out of 100 deer population are able to dominate the local scene. POW!
Jel-sounds bout right?

You'll need a buck:doe ratio of around 50:100 to get 10% class IV buck (3 and up).

I don't know of a jurisdiction that manages their mule deer like that. Even in an un-hunted population you're only going to end up with around 13% of the population being class IV bucks.

Look for about a 1 day 3 pt or less season if you want to achieve that goal.:lol:

[BCrams]

You'll need a buck:doe ratio of around 50:100 to get 10% class IV buck (3 and up).

I don't know of a jurisdiction that manages their mule deer like that. Even in an un-hunted population you're only going to end up with around 13% of the population being class IV bucks.

Look for about a 1 day 3 pt or less season if you want to achieve that goal.:lol:

I know of one.

It comes at a cost though - that being LEH and hunter sitting on the sidelines for several years before an opportunity comes to draw a tag.

GMU 54, just north of Gunnison, has in recent years become renowned for its mule deer. It is managed for a high buck-to-doe ratio of 40-45 bucks per 100 does.

In unit 54, the majority of hunters submitted teeth from bucks that were between 3-6 years old. It appears we have a lot of bucks that are 4 years or older, which should be the case due to our management prescriptions. Because of current management, hunters can be selective and they are seeing greater numbers of older bucks.

In GMU 54, bucks up to 9 years old were harvested.

Maintaining so many older-aged bucks, however, doesn't come without sacrifice. In many southwest Colorado deer units, deer hunters will have to sit on the sidelines for several years between hunts.

Many hunters would like to hunt deer every year and have the opportunity to harvest a buck four years old or older.

The reality is that you can't have it both ways.


I personally do not want to go to restrictions, LEH hunts etc for mule deer. There's no need to. The management above caters only to a select few trophy hunters.

We're better off and the hunters who wish to target big bucks can still do so.

[GoatGuy]

I know of one.

It comes at a cost though - that being LEH and hunter sitting on the sidelines for several years before an opportunity comes to draw a tag.

GMU 54, just north of Gunnison, has in recent years become renowned for its mule deer. It is managed for a high buck-to-doe ratio of 40-45 bucks per 100 does.

In unit 54, the majority of hunters submitted teeth from bucks that were between 3-6 years old. It appears we have a lot of bucks that are 4 years or older, which should be the case due to our management prescriptions. Because of current management, hunters can be selective and they are seeing greater numbers of older bucks.

In GMU 54, bucks up to 9 years old were harvested.

Maintaining so many older-aged bucks, however, doesn't come without sacrifice. In many southwest Colorado deer units, deer hunters will have to sit on the sidelines for several years between hunts.

Many hunters would like to hunt deer every year and have the opportunity to harvest a buck four years old or older.

The reality is that you can't have it both ways.


I personally do not want to go to restrictions, LEH hunts etc for mule deer. There's no need to. The management above caters only to a select few trophy hunters.

We're better off and the hunters who wish to target big bucks can still do so.


There are a couple of hunts that are managed way up there, some jurisdictions even have LEH for wt bucks but I don't know of any that crack the 50:100.

Even on LEH most jurisdictions won't manage at a buck:doe ratio that high, not even close. On top of that you also have to look at predators and habitat if you're going to carry that many bucks through and allow very limited hunting.

[BCrams]

There are a couple of hunts that are managed way up there, some jurisdictions even have LEH for wt bucks but I don't know of any that crack the 50:100.

Even on LEH most jurisdictions won't manage at a buck:doe ratio that high, not even close. On top of that you also have to look at predators and habitat if you're going to carry that many bucks through and allow very limited hunting.

40-45 is getting close

The point I was trying to make is it comes at an extreme cost to resident hunters and hunting opportunity when managers start trying to up the ratios as such. Not something we need to start getting into in BC.


Short seasons (i.e., only 7 days in a lot of cases)
No rut hunts
LEH
Several years waiting for tag if you're luckyOf course there are all the other variables: habitat, predators, species competition and so on

[Jelvis]

I saw in two days of the last two weeks of 07 season at least 150 antlerless mule deer in groups of three or fours with the odd two point. I saw groups of deer in the area like I have not seen before. Doe deer all over last end of nov beginning of dec in 07.
I said to my hunting buddy what the h is going on? We can't figure out why so many deer at 2300 ft and all around us. Drove down the road and every 400 metres more deer, does and under trees then as we reached peoples yards more deer.
How much can one winter range take and where are all the bucks? So many antlerless and no visible sign of males. Wierd.
One dominant breeding buck on average would breed ten does at a high average over the breeding season and that is at the top end is what I'm hearing but who knows.
You fella's have some data on that but I read it somewhere and it stuck. So if there are 200 does in estrus you'd need 20 stud bucks to breed all.
Maybe one buck could breed more, some less but a buck can stick with one doe for days and then breed two or three time also the same one? So one buck stays with doe for a three day period sometimes, so not all the time in the world to rut.
Jel--hard to tell what is happening out in the forests.

[dana]

Rams,
Gunnison had a sevre winter kill last winter. It'll take years for it to see the glory days again. While it was a top producing unit for several years in NA, I have several friends that live in the area that have been able to kill whopper bucks on a constistant basis by applying in sleeper units that go underprescribed. They hunt every year without sitting out on the sidelines. They just do their homework is all. And that right there is what it takes to kill monster deer in this province as well. Like I've said before in this thread, we can't manage for the wanna-be trophy hunter. If you wanna kill big bucks like dana's crew, you are going to have to put your time in, work your ass off and pass on many many mediocre bucks in order to kill a whopper. Even in Gunnison during the hayday, big bucks did not live behind every tree. It still took a great deal of hard effort to kill the monsters that lived there. Keep in mind, that country is a lot more open than what we have in this province. A lot more country for a monster to hide in here. If one thinks they have what it takes to be a trophy hunter, then one has to commit to eating your tag on a consistant basis. Go big or go home. No inbetween.

Jelly,
The last 2 hunting seasons are not good indicators of how many big bucks we have in this province. Weather has played a major role in keeping the bucks low key. There are many a hunter that seriously believe there are no big bucks left because they barely even saw a single buck the last 2 seasons. If one actually pays attention, you'll see plenty of bucks still roaming the hills come spring. Where were they in the fall? The thick $hit is the answer.

Goat,
If I am correct in saying a mature buck can breed unwards of 30 does in a fall, then 3-4 probably what is needed per 100. Now, I know there are many areas of this province were the number is way way higher than that. In those areas, you'll find very aggressive rutting action, as the bucks have to actually compete for their does. Fights will be the normal. Lots of ripped ears, gouged eyes, torn hides, broken legs and broken points. The rut is not strung out over a month. It is instead, a Wham, Bam, Thank ya Mam rut that will last 3 or 4 days. Then the big boys hit the thick timber to rest and heal up. There will still be the odd doe that will come in after this, and that is where the younger bucks see some action.

[6616]

I saw in two days of the last two weeks of 07 season at least 150 antlerless mule deer in groups of three or fours with the odd two point. I saw groups of deer in the area like I have not seen before. Doe deer all over last end of nov beginning of dec in 07.
I said to my hunting buddy what the h is going on? We can't figure out why so many deer at 2300 ft and all around us. Drove down the road and every 400 metres more deer, does and under trees then as we reached peoples yards more deer.
How much can one winter range take and where are all the bucks? So many antlerless and no visible sign of males. Wierd.
One dominant breeding buck on average would breed ten does at a high average over the breeding season and that is at the top end is what I'm hearing but who knows.
You fella's have some data on that but I read it somewhere and it stuck. So if there are 200 does in estrus you'd need 20 stud bucks to breed all.
Maybe one buck could breed more, some less but a buck can stick with one doe for days and then breed two or three time also the same one? So one buck stays with doe for a three day period sometimes, so not all the time in the world to rut.
Jel--hard to tell what is happening out in the forests.

Habitat getting beat down, too many deer, very low buck/doe ratio, pending major winter kill event,,, restricting buck harvest will help a little with buck/doe ratio,,,, but really there's no other solution short of an antlerless hunt for the scenario you describe. And, the sooner the better, if the habitat is compromised it will take a long time to come back. Mother Nature will take care of this her way if we don't, but what we'll be left with will be a two decade wait for the habitat to recover, especially in the hot and dry climate of the southern and central interior of BC.

[dana]

6616,
The habitat in the areas Jelly frequents is top-notch. The summer of 03 made it some of the best mule deer habitat in the province. To think it was all arial seeded too. ;) What Jelly is describing is just a simple fact of bad weather for hunters, good weather for bucks. Lush moist summers, no snow even high till Dec and fairly mild winters means an abundance of deer. The bucks have been living the charmed life and there is no need to expose themselves to the mass hoards of hunters hunting the easy ground.

[Jelvis]

Hunting easy ground is all relative--whats easy to some is an absolute no way for some--sore knees and shoulders etc.
When we saw all those deer in end of 07, we had climbed up and over and back for hours and my partner did mange to connect on a nice little four point, not real big but he liked it, biggest so far. We worked hard at it, together and got one, if you work harder you can get a four. We saw the goups of deer by a road when heading out.
Another thing to think about, why in the forest and higher ridges was'nt a huge track of a trophy 5 year old seen, mostly all the same size. Nothing standing out as bigger. The snow was there for weeks too.
Tons of deer but where did the big guns go, to hide or in the real thick stuff, cuz if your counting deer, you got a big world to cover, lol. Never happened and won't, cuz it's impossible to count every deer even in winter range. Helicopter or driving at night with a light only guessing at best.
Jel--there's one, there's another--that's two. Get the drift?

[OKtrigger]

Great thread guys, very interesting.
I went down to the Kelowna library today to do some research on the life cycle, habitat etc. of deer and what did I find? Nothing. Not one book.
They had 60 titles for birds and about 20 for bears but no deer. I then looked for books on hunting and firearms. They had one on muzzleloaders and one called "Hunting in Maine".
Seriously, who is running that place? I left in disgust after leaving my complaint on a comment card.:x

[GoatGuy]

Great thread guys, very interesting.
I went down to the Kelowna library today to do some research on the life cycle, habitat etc. of deer and what did I find? Nothing. Not one book.
They had 60 titles for birds and about 20 for bears but no deer. I then looked for books on hunting and firearms. They had one on muzzleloaders and one called "Hunting in Maine".
Seriously, who is running that place? I left in disgust after leaving my complaint on a comment card.:x

Go to the library at UBC, they'll have some stuff there.

Public libraries are useless.

[6616]

6616,
The habitat in the areas Jelly frequents is top-notch. The summer of 03 made it some of the best mule deer habitat in the province. To think it was all arial seeded too. ;) What Jelly is describing is just a simple fact of bad weather for hunters, good weather for bucks. Lush moist summers, no snow even high till Dec and fairly mild winters means an abundance of deer. The bucks have been living the charmed life and there is no need to expose themselves to the mass hoards of hunters hunting the easy ground.

Yah I forgot about those fires of '03, some of that country must look like deer heaven by now. Bet the elk are doing pretty good in OK Mt Park as well.

[dana]

6616,
If you talk to anyone in the Kelowna area, they'll tell ya the elk are doing terrible. Seems some of the same people that rail against NIMBY protectionist attitudes in Region 4 are doing the exact same thing in Region 8. They don't want the world to figure out that Region 8 has a good elk hunt, so they down play it.:razz: Heck, 20+ years ago I hunted Okanagan Mtn for elk. Had some great action. Never did get r done but certainly had a blast trying.

Goat,
The TNRD library system has some great books available. Geist's Mule Deer Country is one of them.

[mark]

Not sure who your sources are Dana, but most everyone Ive talked to say the elk are doing great around here. I heard a number recently that 37 bull elk were compulsory reported last year, lots shot by FN also. I dont hunt that side of the lake much, but in 10 years Ive yet to see one!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not sure who your sources are Dana, but most everyone Ive talked to say the elk are doing great around here. I heard a number recently that 37 bull elk were compulsory reported last year, lots shot by FN also. I dont hunt that side of the lake much, but in 10 years Ive yet to see one!

The elk are doing well in the park but the vast majority of Reg 8 harvest still comes from the Princeton area(excluding the Granby-old stats).

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

6616,
If you talk to anyone in the Kelowna area, they'll tell ya the elk are doing terrible. Seems some of the same people that rail against NIMBY protectionist attitudes in Region 4 are doing the exact same thing in Region 8. They don't want the world to figure out that Region 8 has a good elk hunt, so they down play it.:razz: Heck, 20+ years ago I hunted Okanagan Mtn for elk. Had some great action. Never did get r done but certainly had a blast trying.


Elk harvest stats for 8-09, which includes OK Mtn Park, would disprove your hypothesis. The hey-days were in the late 80s - early 90s, when it was a 3 point season. 6 point sucks for success rates. I can honestly say that I've never seen a bull elk in season in region 8, and I've hunted here all my life. Someday, SOMEDAY! We're hoping for a transplant to get some new genetics into those inbreds - we've got the habitat now, we just need a bit of new DNA, and a bio willing to make it happen.

1976 2
1977 8
1978 3
1979 4
1980 12
1981 6
1982 17
1983 5
1984 4
1985 4
1986 2
1987 6
1988 10
1989 10
1990 16
1991 11
1992 13
1993 11
1994 13
1995 14
1996 6
1997 6
1998 5
1999 0
2000 0
2001 2
2002 6
2003 8
2004 7
2005 8
2006 8

[boxhitch]

What were the changes in '88 and '96 ?

[dana]

I'd be willing to bet that if today's hunters had a little more fortitude and gumption, those numbers would be higher. Hard to kill an elk in an area with poor road access from the cab of the pickup. Not putting anyone down or making a negative comment. Just stating the obvious. Seems a lot more hunters now adays have their asses firmly glued to the seat of the truck or ATV. It is the new era of hunter that we have been breeding in this province. Each to there own, but not the greatest way to increase harvest stats.

[Fisher-Dude]

I'd be willing to bet that if today's hunters had a little more fortitude and gumption, those numbers would be higher. Hard to kill an elk in an area with poor road access from the cab of the pickup. Not putting anyone down or making a negative comment. Just stating the obvious. Seems a lot more hunters now adays have their asses firmly glued to the seat of the truck or ATV. It is the new era of hunter that we have been breeding in this province. Each to there own, but not the greatest way to increase harvest stats.

Yes dana, we all know the Last Great Hunter left region 8 when you moved away. ;-) Gawd help us. Just admit you were wrong and we'll move forward with the discussion.:lol:

Problem with these elk is two-fold: inbred genetics and they are spread out across a huge area. Most single MUs in the East Kootenays and 7B have way more kills per year than all of region 8 combined, due to concentrated herds and diverse genetics.

[dana]

FD,
Sounds like some NIMBY comments just to get everyone to not hunt in Region 8 to me. On the other hand, an old fart road hunting guru like yourself needs road restrictions and point restrictions in the EK's lifted just so you can actually kill something.;):lol: We all know that's your real beef. You don't have what it takes anymore.:twisted:

[Fisher-Dude]

FD,
Sounds like some NIMBY comments just to get everyone to not hunt in Region 8 to me. On the other hand, an old fart road hunting guru like yourself needs road restrictions and point restrictions in the EK's lifted just so you can actually kill something.;):lol: We all know that's your real beef. You don't have what it takes anymore.:twisted:

I'll gladly put my elk racks beside yours for comparison. Oops, you don't have any, 'cause you've never killed one - you don't have what it takes!! Cow skull caps don't count! :lol:

I don't care if anyone wants to hunt elk in region 8, have at 'er, some guys get lucky and dump one. Best spots according to the harvest stats are Princeton, the Christian, and the Grandby. If I thought it was worthwhile, I'd spend my two week elk hunt in September hunting here in region 8 instead of burning a grand in fuel heading to the E Koots or 7B.

Hey Jelly, where did Looky Louis say the hot spots were? :D

[dana]

I don't have a bull elk because I only hunted them as a kid. No huntable elk here in Region 3 and when I travel to the other Regions, I have other priorities than a big stinky. :cool: But lets face it, a raghorn is a raghorn is a raghorn. It don't matter if it's a 3 point or a 6 point, it's still a raghorn. Killing a true giant in BC is a feat and a half. I'd be game if I could do it in my backyard, but I can't so I leave the shooting of raghorns to other people. ;)

[6616]

Chr**t Sakes you guys, I've probably shot more elk then all of you put together, but who cares, this is a really good mule deer thread, let's not spoil it.

[Fisher-Dude]

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

6616, do you have any of the studies done by Hugh Robinson on region 4W mule deer? He's blown away a lot of the conventional wisdom on mule deer science.

[6616]

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

6616, do you have any of the studies done by Hugh Robinson on region 4W mule deer? He's blown away a lot of the conventional wisdom on mule deer science.

Yes I've got them, they certainly do indicate that the expansion of WTD and related predator numbers are impacting the viability of mule deer.

Some people are concerned about WTD conservation when more aggressive harvest stratgeies are suggested,,,,I wouldn't worry about them, they can do quite well on their own, it's mule deer I'm worried about in regions 4 and 8 where WTD populations seem to be almost out of control. If I lived in Regions 3 or 5 I'd want to make sure what has happened in 4 and 8 doesn't happen there too. It might have got to the point in 4 and 8 that we'll be hard pressed to correct the situation.

Some one once said that after a nuclear holocaust there will be three species sure to survive, those being rats, cockroaches and white tailed deer. Hate to put them in the same sentence as cockroaches because they are truely a great game animal, but they've got to be contolled or they could become uncontrolable.

[Fisher-Dude]

Yes I've got them, they certainly do indicate that the expansion of WTD and related predator numbers are impacting the viability of mule deer.

Some people are concerned about WTD conservation when more aggressive harvest stratgeies are suggested,,,,I wouldn't worry about them, they can do quite well on their own, it's mule deer I'm worried about in regions 4 and 8 where WTD populations seem to be almost out of control. If I lived in Regions 3 or 5 I'd want to make sure what has happened in 4 and 8 doesn't happen there too. It might have got to the point in 4 and 8 that we'll be hard pressed to correct the situation.

Some one once said that after a nuclear holocaust there will be three species sure to survive, those being rats, cockroaches and white tailed deer. Hate to put them in the same sentence as cockroaches because they are truely a great game animal, but they've got to be contolled or they could become uncontrolable.

I've seen an big increase in WTD in the part of region 3 where I hunt mulies. This fall I actually killed one, and saw a dozen others, 3 of which were bucks. I saw 4 or 5 in a day of pre-season scouting last summer too. Most I'd seen before was 2 or 3 does a season, and did see one other buck about 6 years ago. What a big change in a short time!

I'll be doing what I can to hunt that area and keep those tasty little buggers in check! :wink:

[dana]

6616,
Seeing those 3 lumped into the same sentence makes sense to me. ;)

Since you brought up predators, do you think the current increase in the wolf population is having an adverse effect on mule deer? One typically pictures wolves focusing on moose and elk, but I'm really noticing them target muleys in a big way. In the past in this area, it seemed the ranchers really kept the wolf in check, but Post BSE-crisis, the ranchers ain't running as many cattle on the range, thus they don't patrol the range as much, thus the wolf has been allowed to go about his business without any issues. With the abundance of game, the wolves have been living the high life.

[6616]

6616,
Seeing those 3 lumped into the same sentence makes sense to me. ;)

Since you brought up predators, do you think the current increase in the wolf population is having an adverse effect on mule deer? One typically pictures wolves focusing on moose and elk, but I'm really noticing them target muleys in a big way. In the past in this area, it seemed the ranchers really kept the wolf in check, but Post BSE-crisis, the ranchers ain't running as many cattle on the range, thus they don't patrol the range as much, thus the wolf has been allowed to go about his business without any issues. With the abundance of game, the wolves have been living the high life.

Over the past decades we've seen wolves primarily where there are lots of moose and people often think of them as having an inter-specific relationship which there's no doubt they do,,, but it seems to me that wolves are opportunists and will peak out in population when ungulates peak regardless of the ungulate species. And mule deer seem to be the species most vulnerable to predation whether it's wolves or cougars and take a real beating during high prey/predator population cycles along with moose. If mule deer get caught up in the prey/predator cycles that occur between wolves and moose I worry that they could be the biggest loser.

I believe Hugh Robinson when he says wolves are expanding in step with the WTD population in the Pend O'Reille valley and in turn disrupting mule deer populations. If he's right it's probably happening in many areas in the Kootenay's and Okanagan, especially in the East Kootenay where elk are also at a high population cycle.

I also think FD might be right when he thinks WTD may be on the verge of a major population expansion into the southern areas of region 3 as well. In the EK it started out slow and no one was really concerned, and then,, "boom-WTD everyfrikkinwhere", and mule deer might be suffering the consequences (why the phenomenum of so many urban mule deer in Cranbrook, Invermere, Golden, maybe to avoid predators and maybe to find some food that hasn't been eaten by WTD, cows, or elk). The wolf situation will be compounded in region 3 and 5 if/when the WTD expand because of your high moose numbers which means you already have significant wolf populations.

Mule deer are not in trouble, this is not a panic situation, they're still at high numbers and doing fine,,, but I'd sure like to keep it that way myself. I'd hate to sacrifice a large percentage of mule deer to an increase in WTD. A few WTD are OK, they're a great species to hunt, but we've got 100,000 of them now in the EK all of a sudden and it's screwing things up. Their foraging preferences are nearly the same as mule deer so there's not much doubt that they're competitive species on winter ranges. Those are my thoughts and concerns, and that's why I agree that the southern interior mule deer strategy cannot be a stand alone management stratgey but must incorporate related strategies and oblectives for WTD, elk, and possibly moose as well. Strategies for WTD and MD inter-related management plans must be pro-active, not reactive which is what we're faced with now in the EK and OK.

[aggiehunter]

Rats, Cockroaches and Whitetails will not be the survivors after a holocaust 6616 as they live of the avails of humans. Further to that generalizing closing dates and the word conservation don't go hand in hand.

[Fisher-Dude]

Tell us what your definition of "conservation" is aggie.

[tufferthandug]

Rats, Cockroaches and Whitetails will not be the survivors after a holocaust 6616 as they live of the avails of humans. Further to that generalizing closing dates and the word conservation don't go hand in hand.


If I remember right, whitetails were on that "I am Legend" movie... Makes you think, eh?? LOL.

[6616]

Rats, Cockroaches and Whitetails will not be the survivors after a holocaust 6616 as they live of the avails of humans. Further to that generalizing closing dates and the word conservation don't go hand in hand.

The way I see it Ernie is that standardized opening and closing dates will prevent hunter migration from region to region, will keep hunters more evenly distributed, will thus make seasons and harvests more sustainable.

[Will]

...that standardized opening and closing dates will prevent hunter migration from region to region, will keep hunters more evenly distributed, will thus make seasons and harvests more sustainable.
The vast majority of Hunters I know that migrate from region to region do so to take advantage of the Two Buck provincial Bag limit, tag a reg 5 buck then head home for another reg 3 buck etc.....not so much to take advantage of longer or shorter seasons.

Standardizing region dates will do little to prevent this IMO.


The only reason alot of hunters migrate to other regions is because they must in order to meet thier Prov bag limit. Reg 3 hunters for example.....

I'd think standardising opportunity(bag limits) in ALL regions would do a heck of alot more to keep hunters in thier own backyards ?

[Fisher-Dude]

Actually Will, I'm not ready to take up knitting on Nov 10 when the mulies close in region 8, so I head over to region 3. IF I'm lucky, the secondary reason is that I'm tagged out here. Usually, it's just to have the opportunity to enjoy a rut hunt with snow in 3.

PS - provincial bag limit is 3 deer, not 2. :biggrin:

[Will]

"Do you want to keep hunters in "Thier own backyards" though?"

I don't want to keep anyone anywhere......noone is advocating restricting anything...especially myself...this thread was about ideas to prevent further restrictions, wasn't it ? I'm just pointing out that if the season dates were all standardised...it will do nothing to limit migrating hunters.
Bag limits do that...get my point now ?

"If there's a season open I'm there. Myself I am directed by bag limits."

your thread only proves my point....to fullfiull Prov bag limits we MUST migrate into other regions....


"If regs were changed and I was regulated by a general bag limit for mule deer that would consequently end my deer hunting for the whole province for that season then..."

you already are regulated by Prov bag limits...regardless of local regional bag limits.

"Well sir.. I don't like it.. Do not restrict my deer hunting grounds! "

That's exactly what my suggestions are attempting to prevent...if you read closer

"Actually Will, I'm not ready to take up knitting on Nov 10 when the mulies close in region 8, so I head over to region 3. IF I'm lucky, the secondary reason is that I'm tagged out here. Usually, it's just to have the opportunity to enjoy a rut hunt with snow in 3."

you also admit to hunting other regions to fullfill your Prov bag limits....sure not everyone will stay in one region but to prevent the hammering of some zones by allowing hunters to have the option to fullfill thier limits within thier own MU's would decrease the need for some to migrate into other MU's....those that do so by choice can certainly still do so, nobody is advocating anything different...meat hunters from 3 would not go to 5 to tag a meat buck if they could take two antlered deer here, I guarantee it, that was my point...to help spread out the pressure that's all.

"PS - provincial bag limit is 3 deer, not 2. :biggrin:"
Sorry I see it now.......3 Is the number ! drunk again.....:wink:
..........................

[Stone Sheep Steve]

You will always get migration of hunters into other regions in an attempt to fill provincial bag limits: however; by harmonizing the seasons, the migration won't all happen at one time during the season. We don't all cut our tags on the same day:wink:.

SSS

[dana]

Do you want to keep hunters in "Thier own backyards" though? I hunt mostly Reg. 5. If I bag a buck here before Sept. 10th I stop hunting until the 10th and I head out again in Reg.5 when the any buck season starts. Now if I bag another one in 5, I'm gone to region 3 or 7...

If there's a season open I'm there. Myself I am directed by bag limits.

If regs were changed and I was regulated by a general bag limit for mule deer that would consequently end my deer hunting for the whole province for that season then...

Well sir.. I don't like it.. Do not restrict my deer hunting grounds!

If you look at my unified proposal, I am no way suggesting that hunters stay in their own backyards. I, too, like to hunt other Regions as well. I suggest maintaining the 3 deer provincial limit. Hunters who are of the NIMBY mindset are very hypocritical. You see, it is alright for them to hunt in other areas of the province, be it an early sheep hunt up North or what have ya, but then when they get home, they want to have everything for themselves. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And on top of that, hunters provide some much needed economic stimulis to small communities around this province. Be it hotels, gas, groceries, restaurants ect. Hunters spend money where they hunt. This comes post-tourist season and is significant for a lot of small towns.
What unifying seasons would do is spread out the hunters over a longer period of time. Clearwater for example gets a lot of traffic from Okanagan hunters. Has been that way for years, long before dana ever showed up on the internet. ;) Those OK hunters always show up Remembrance Day as their season is over on the 10th. This is also the same time a lot of VI hunters show up. It then makes for quite the jammed hunting conditions for a couple of weeks. Now, unify the seasons and a lot of those OK hunters will still come to Clearwater, but it will be spread out across the season, as many will decide to hold onto their Region 8 mule deer tag for a late season opportunity. The out-of-region hunts then feel more like a holiday than a circus right? You can play this scenerio out in tons of areas around the province, be it the Gang, the EK or what have ya.
I proposed a 2 buck Regional limit (only one of which can be taken within a non-archery season). My thoughts here are, this would make a lot of hunters consider taking up Archery, as there then is an added incentive within their home Region. In reality, not a lot of deer get killed in archery seasons, so even with new hunters taking up the stick and string, you aren't posing a conservation concern due to over harvest, and you are increasing hunter opportunity. Some hunters will decide that the entire season will be spend in their home Regions, other hunters will travel to adjacent Regions to get a second buck.

[Red Foreman]

As little as 7-8 years ago in my area of region 3 you would see maybe 1 WT for every 50 MD.This last hunting season I was seeing more along the lines of 20 WT for ever 50 MD if not more.

A lot of hunters around here wouldn't "waste" their money buying a WT tag.Now everyone buys one just like a MD tag.The WT are exploding fast around here,I don't understand why we don't even have a LEH doe hunt for WT.I'm no bioligist,just a hunter who spends a lot of time year round in the bush but if they are worried about WT displacing MD,it would seem to me that now would be the time to do something before they become more entrenched than they are now.With the easy winter we've had this year,very little snow and mild temps,I expect the WT numbers to be even higher this year.

[Jelvis]

The more deer that are shot, the more deer you'll get, it's an oxy moron, if deer are harvested then the more come back in greater numbers. Some of the hunter's I know state this. Winter range is the measure of how much carrying capacity the area has for the herds that go to that winter range. If too many cattle forage off the winter range, all the deer could be in danger of malnutrition and parasites as well as devastating the forage by overgrazing especially if cattle have ate half the shrubs, herbs and grasses like they do and trample everything to the ground.
The back country is changing and anything under 4000 ft elevation should be saved for deer and moose in region 3. That's where the winter range is and should'nt have those bovine $hittin everywhere. imo.
Jelvis (the Pelvis) Parsley--leave the winter range free of slow elk (white face) cattle.

[6616]

The more deer that are shot, the more deer you'll get, it's an oxy moron, if deer are harvested then the more come back in greater numbers. Some of the hunter's I know state this. Winter range is the measure of how much carrying capacity the area has for the herds that go to that winter range. If too many cattle forage off the winter range, all the deer could be in danger of malnutrition and parasites as well as devastating the forage by overgrazing especially if cattle have ate half the shrubs, herbs and grasses like they do and trample everything to the ground.
The back country is changing and anything under 4000 ft elevation should be saved for deer and moose in region 3. That's where the winter range is and should'nt have those bovine $hittin everywhere. imo.
Jelvis (the Pelvis) Parsley--leave the winter range free of slow elk (white face) cattle.

But we know it will never happen. And if it did,,,would the rural areas be littered with 10 acre ranchettes sub-divided on the failed ranching lands? What would be worse for hunters, for deer, moose...? If you deny the ranchers grazing can you then also deny him the right to sub-divide?

[Jelvis]

Don't even subsidize these ranchers, if they can't make money ranching cattle, enuff to make a living and pay their mortgage and ranch help, then forget it. No bringing out of agriculture reserve either. BAM! Get tuff on these old fashioned ways of making a living, no subsidies. If you want, a person can raise beef cattle on a small flat area, they don't need all the free range anymore, look at asian countries and keep the cattle in yards and marble the meat with inactivity and lots of rich meal, WHAM!
You want modern cars, and now getting rid of the old 80's heavy gas burners cuz times are changing then, time to rid the important winter ranges of slow elk. Period.
At least the real winter range that is under special zones, cattle out of Crown Land--Now! Save the forage for deer.
Jel--can't make a living off cattle-find something else.
Great big tracks of land, then they lease more-time to change-it's not the 1800's--get modern. POW!

[GoatGuy]

Don't even subsidize these ranchers, if they can't make money ranching cattle, enuff to make a living and pay their mortgage and ranch help, then forget it. No bringing out of agriculture reserve either. BAM! Get tuff on these old fashioned ways of making a living, no subsidies.

tisk, tisk jelly.

[horshur]

Don't even subsidize these ranchers, if they can't make money ranching cattle, enuff to make a living and pay their mortgage and ranch help, then forget it. No bringing out of agriculture reserve either. BAM! Get tuff on these old fashioned ways of making a living, no subsidies. If you want, a person can raise beef cattle on a small flat area, they don't need all the free range anymore, look at asian countries and keep the cattle in yards and marble the meat with inactivity and lots of rich meal, WHAM!
You want modern cars, and now getting rid of the old 80's heavy gas burners cuz times are changing then, time to rid the important winter ranges of slow elk. Period.
At least the real winter range that is under special zones, cattle out of Crown Land--Now! Save the forage for deer.
Jel--can't make a living off cattle-find something else.
Great big tracks of land, then they lease more-time to change-it's not the 1800's--get modern. POW!

Ranching is a renewable--sustainable resource that actualy produces a product that is useful.

[Jelvis]

Up the nor river (North Thompson) we have ranchers which is great, nothing against family ranches, some kewl earthy citizens. Great families.
But one fella I know who is a true hunter, lives it and loves it, was confronted by a hunter in the bush country above the river who said he had three other fella's hunting the area and that he owned the cattle grazing rights and he did'nt appreciate other hunters using the Crown land area he leased and thought he should leave it.
Another guy tells me one day just above Darfield, he has cattle in the area and does'nt need to take them out till end of October and therefore I should'nt hunt the area. lol. I told him to like, hit the road, I hunted up here for years at this time. He left, said nothing else but wait til after October, cuz he will get the cattle out and up til then your not supposed to hunt on grazing lease area in the forests.
This is poor pr and all them cattle are eating the mule deer and moose food right where those slow elk are fertilizing every foot of ground with you know what, and it's absolutely gross too.
Jel-keep them on the ranches where they belong. imho.

[Will]

Another guy tells me one day just above Darfield, he has cattle in the area and does'nt need to take them out till end of October and therefore I should'nt hunt the area. lol. I told him to like, hit the road, I hunted up here for years at this time.
If he has the Grazing lease He was right.:wink:

Mostly it's not been a concern for me...if the Ranchers have a prob with hunters it's usually from a Bad experience from some Hunter telling them to hit the road.......:roll:




3. Wildlife Act (Section 39) - A person is not
permitted to hunt on cultivated land or on
Crown land which is subject to a grazing
lease while the land is occupied by livestock,
without the consent of the owner, lessee or
occupant of the land.

[Jelvis]

If thats the case then you won't be hunting til November. lol.
It's all got cattle on it so I guess I won't see you til november lol. From O'conner to Clearwater.
There's cattle all over the country in the bush on Crown.
The fella left, I kept hunting and he did'nt come back cuz I was there for hours. This area is way up in the bush miles from the main road. I guess he did'nt really care, he knew I was after deer, probably just concerned about his furry friends.
I'm just wondering why on winter range designated as prime special mule deer winter range so important to mule deer, the Crown would put cattle there to eat the poor deer's winter food, can't be right, just for "a few dollars more." It's good, it's bad and it's ugly.
Jelly-Where's the beef?

[Fisher-Dude]

Grazing leases and grazing permits are two very different things. Don't get confused and give up your rights to hunt. I'll tell any rancher to go #### himself if he tries to boot me from a grazing permit (which is the vast majority of grazing tenure in BC).

[Will]

Grazing leases and grazing permits are two very different things. Don't get confused and give up your rights to hunt. I'll tell any rancher to go #### himself if he tries to boot me from a grazing permit (which is the vast majority of grazing tenure in BC).

You got that right.....just pointed out that "if" it was leased then the Hunter needs to be aware of it :wink:

Honestly though it's never been an issue for me at all.......Most ranchers I've encountered on leased areas as well have even been helpfull towards the hunt, game sightings etc.

Respect and cooperation is always a two way street.......plus the bottle of Crown I keep under the seat occasionally sways the conversation in my favour:biggrin:

[aggiehunter]

FD,Conservation "savin' some for seed".

[GoatGuy]

Up the nor river (North Thompson) we have ranchers which is great, nothing against family ranches, some kewl earthy citizens. Great families.
But one fella I know who is a true hunter, lives it and loves it, was confronted by a hunter in the bush country above the river who said he had three other fella's hunting the area and that he owned the cattle grazing rights and he did'nt appreciate other hunters using the Crown land area he leased and thought he should leave it.
Another guy tells me one day just above Darfield, he has cattle in the area and does'nt need to take them out till end of October and therefore I should'nt hunt the area. lol. I told him to like, hit the road, I hunted up here for years at this time. He left, said nothing else but wait til after October, cuz he will get the cattle out and up til then your not supposed to hunt on grazing lease area in the forests.
This is poor pr and all them cattle are eating the mule deer and moose food right where those slow elk are fertilizing every foot of ground with you know what, and it's absolutely gross too.
Jel-keep them on the ranches where they belong. imho.

Surprised Jelly, very surprised.

[horshur]

Jelly I know lotsa private that is been hunted as crown out of ignorance that these ranchers just turn a blind eye to and let them.

[Jelvis]

This is'nt private, I know this area for all my hunting life and my Uncles on my mom's side. This is Crown, no doot aboot it. Hey, there's lots of country out there but it does bother me when I see those bovine in the mule deer winter range, that I love. That's all it is. It ain't going to change, they will be back again, like always. At least they fenced it with new barbless wire to protect the herds of mule deer. That was nice to see, and the replantation was different, trees were planted farther apart so the canopy was'nt covering the forest floor.
There are some good people in the field who understand mule deer winter range and that reasures my hopes for my deer. I call them my deer. lol.
Jel--don't abuse my deer. lol.

[GoatGuy]

This is'nt private, I know this area for all my hunting life and my Uncles on my mom's side. This is Crown, no doot aboot it. Hey, there's lots of country out there but it does bother me when I see those bovine in the mule deer winter range, that I love. That's all it is. It ain't going to change, they will be back again, like always. At least they fenced it with new barbless wire to protect the herds of mule deer. That was nice to see, and the replantation was different, trees were planted farther apart so the canopy was'nt covering the forest floor.
There are some good people in the field who understand mule deer winter range and that reasures my hopes for my deer. I call them my deer. lol.
Jel--don't abuse my deer. lol.

Must be terrible range if the cattle are eating all the twigs and branches in September and October.

[GoatGuy]

FD,Conservation "savin' some for seed".

Exactly how would you define that and how would you measure that?

[Jelvis]

Legumes and herbs and grasses too goat, not just succulent leaves, cows eat those and so do muley. Plus dumping all around little ponds and tiny lakes and clear streams.
If an area is designated prime winte range for muley by the government workers, then why not keep the cows off that special zone? That's all, and yes I know the cattlemen have a big say and so be it.
It's not a perfect forest for deer down near where paople build and develop on their winter habitat, and I realize that also.
Jel-down by the river.

[6616]

Where ever grazing permits or leases overlap designated ungulate winter range forage is allocated. 50% is supposed to be left for soil conservation purposes, 25% for wintering wildlife, and 25% for cattle grazing. Been that way for decades and will likely stay that way. This is a social decision.

Of course the allocation is not followed to exacting measurements since there is a fixed number of AUMs allocated to cattle through Range Stewardship Plans and the range production varies from year to year depending on annual rainfall. Also AUMs consumed by cattle through RSPs are not always enforced real well.

In the EK reasearch by Tim Ross, Don Gayton, Wikeem, and others has indicated that forage production can be 125% greater in a wet year as compared to a drought year. It's the drought years when problems arise and forage shortfalls occur.

[Jelvis]

Small domestic cow (slow elk) eat ten times what a big deer (mule deer) will eat a day. Ten times. Count-do math
Cow--30 to 40 pounds of foilage and grasses and legumes
Mule deer--3 to 4 pounds of plants, clover, grass, twigs.
Cows consume galoooons of fresh water
Cows hang around water
Cows mess in the water
Deer compete for food unnaturally with this competitive bovine brought by truck or pushed in that spot.
You don't need to be a biologist to understand this math. lol.
Look at it through mother natures eyes. You'll c da light.
Jel-Hammer-fix the ratio-save the food for the winter.

[GoatGuy]

Legumes and herbs and grasses too goat, not just succulent leaves, cows eat those and so do muley. Plus dumping all around little ponds and tiny lakes and clear streams.
If an area is designated prime winte range for muley by the government workers, then why not keep the cows off that special zone? That's all, and yes I know the cattlemen have a big say and so be it.
It's not a perfect forest for deer down near where paople build and develop on their winter habitat, and I realize that also.
Jel-down by the river.

What do mule deer eat during the winter Jelly?

[Jelvis]

Mule deer during the winter, ah winter, colder snowy and dryer or January on?
If it's early deeper snows, or late hardly a flake of snow in winter months makes a difference in what plants and vegetation can be eaten, because of access.
Mule deer from December to spring will eat, shrubs, willow, buck brush, moss, lichens, fir tree, cedar tree, bear berry (kiniknic) berry bushes, sage brush, paint brush, fireweed, any exposed grasses, legumes and mushrooms, aspen, choke cherry, thistle weeds, old apple trees in abandoned orchards, eat from tree blowdowns needles and some barks. And more.
Cows in cold months back in the warmth of the ranch protected by rancher. Being force fed and drinking fresh water and under a huge loafing barn. Fresh hay and grain.
Jelly-winter range-all-iced up and cold-wheres the beef now? lol

[GoatGuy]

Mule deer during the winter, ah winter, colder snowy and dryer or January on?
If it's early deeper snows, or late hardly a flake of snow in winter months makes a difference in what plants and vegetation can be eaten, because of access.
Mule deer from December to spring will eat, shrubs, willow, buck brush, moss, lichens, fir tree, cedar tree, bear berry (kiniknic) berry bushes, sage brush, paint brush, fireweed, any exposed grasses, legumes and mushrooms, aspen, choke cherry, thistle weeds, old apple trees in abandoned orchards, eat from tree blowdowns needles and some barks. And more.
Cows in cold months back in the warmth of the ranch protected by rancher. Being force fed and drinking fresh water and under a huge loafing barn. Fresh hay and grain.
Jelly-winter range-all-iced up and cold-wheres the beef now? lol

when there is snow on the ground what do mule deer eat?

[Jelvis]

--> Goater-Depends on, once again, snow, but how much snow? <-
That would be relevant, and needed informantion to make a meaningful guesstimation, in my humble opinion, as well as windchill temperatures and how many consecutive days of minus 40 windchill and a snow depth of belly high snow or six centametres?
These are called variables and make different results from different data making weather and types of precipitation ie hail, snow, rain, ice pellets and so on.
What particular winter range classification are we talking about here, and what soil limitations and of course the moisture content and forest floor make up. rock, dirt, soil depth.
Jel--Classification of the winter range and limitations.

[dana]

Never knew cattle to be much for browsers. Thought they were more grazers. So according to Jelly, the mule deer winter range browse is destroyed due to cattle? Hmm, can't recall ever seeing a cow munching down on windfall douglas fir needles before. Can't recall seeing much paintbrush and fireweed growing in the winter months either. Hmmm, maybe Jellystone has been hitting the crack pipe again???

[PGK]

Never knew cattle to be much for browsers. Thought they were more grazers. So according to Jelly, the mule deer winter range browse is destroyed due to cattle? Hmm, can't recall ever seeing a cow munching down on windfall douglas fir needles before. Can't recall seeing much paintbrush and fireweed growing in the winter months either. Hmmm, maybe Jellystone has been hitting the crack pipe again???

Maybe he meant to type ''sheep'' :?:

:-)

[GoatGuy]

--> Goater-Depends on, once again, snow, but how much snow? <-
That would be relevant, and needed informantion to make a meaningful guesstimation, in my humble opinion, as well as windchill temperatures and how many consecutive days of minus 40 windchill and a snow depth of belly high snow or six centametres?
These are called variables and make different results from different data making weather and types of precipitation ie hail, snow, rain, ice pellets and so on.
What particular winter range classification are we talking about here, and what soil limitations and of course the moisture content and forest floor make up. rock, dirt, soil depth.
Jel--Classification of the winter range and limitations.

Jelly, my point here is that cattle shouldn't be eating what mule deer eating during the winter.

Cows are grazers and while they probably eat a lot of 'stuff that grows on the ground' that deer might eat in the spring/summer/early fall they don't eat what mule deer generally feed on in the winter.

Mule deer usually twigs/bushes/branches that sort of thing in the winter. Living for the day, ya know. If cows are eating that stuff in the summer and fall the habitat you're hunting in is in terrible shape.

[GoatGuy]

Never knew cattle to be much for browsers. Thought they were more grazers. So according to Jelly, the mule deer winter range browse is destroyed due to cattle? Hmm, can't recall ever seeing a cow munching down on windfall douglas fir needles before. Can't recall seeing much paintbrush and fireweed growing in the winter months either. Hmmm, maybe Jellystone has been hitting the crack pipe again???

I was trying to be nice.

Turning over a new leaf, ya know.:lol:

At least for tonight...................................

[Jelvis]

--You fella's got to get out more, check the ridges you once walked on years ago, the ones you took pictures of and now they are the glory days, things have changed a bit in the last decade. Your older now and using data that is a little out dated, but hey, we must adapt like the mule deer with all the competition for his winter range.
Things like roads, buildings, railroads, ranches, houses, farms, wood lots, agriculture, thats why whitetails are growing, the agriculture, they can adapt to river valley's with farms and ranches better than mule deer which prefer hilly country. WHAM!
Jelly--You can try to fool mother nature but father time gets yah. lol. fireweed sticks up out of the snow rufus BAM!

[Will]

I tried following this thread again and well....

WHAMO ! :eek:

....perhaps things will make more sense after a good drink, or two ? :-|

[GoatGuy]

--You fella's got to get out more, check the ridges you once walked on years ago, the ones you took pictures of and now they are the glory days, things have changed a bit in the last decade. Your older now and using data that is a little out dated, but hey, we must adapt like the mule deer with all the competition for his winter range.
Things like roads, buildings, railroads, ranches, houses, farms, wood lots, agriculture, thats why whitetails are growing, the agriculture, they can adapt to river valley's with farms and ranches better than mule deer which prefer hilly country. WHAM!
Jelly--You can try to fool mother nature but father time gets yah. lol. fireweed sticks up out of the snow rufus BAM!

Is this a segue from mule deer winter range and cattle competition to white-tails and roads and agriculture. Thought we were talking about cattle who sit on mule deer winter range and eat all da browse. :lol:

I'm lost.......dazed...and.....confused............... ...segueway or segue..............from mule deer to cattle...hiking the ridges to hunting the highway..... get it..got it.....good

[dana]

Jellydoughnut,
Pull the bong down and walk away from the computer. Those ridges you used to walk (but don't anymore due to your ass firmly planted behind the computer screen) have indeed changed. The Mclure Fire changed them for the better. The new browse growth since 03 has been incredible. And on top of that, What Cattle??? Been awhile since you've actually been out there hasn't it? Not many ranchers are running much more than remnant herds now. The glory days of ranching were back when you took those pics of your ridges of yesterday. The glory days for muleys on those ridges are today.

[Jelvis]

--First the fire devastated the winter range--then--it's taken years to grow the vegetation back and the big trees are burned and gone--
Then I'm up there and see new fences and guess what?
--Slow elk, white face and black angus muntching away tails flappin, eating everything in sight-and of course the brown frizbees all over de place.
Yah, well same bat station same bat time. Not just in one spot either. No. All around the jolly area. Oh well, this is happening in the interior now, not replanting fire burn area from Mclure to the Bone a part Napolean, making it into slow elk range forever. No replanting the wood but making it all range, it's already a done deal, Neil.
Jel--There's a tear in my beer.

[mark]

--First the fire devastated the winter range--then--it's taken years to grow the vegetation back and the big trees are burned and gone--
Then I'm up there and see new fences and guess what?
--Slow elk, white face and black angus muntching away tails flappin, eating everything in sight-and of course the brown frizbees all over de place.
Yah, well same bat station same bat time. Not just in one spot either. No. All around the jolly area. Oh well, this is happening in the interior now, not replanting fire burn area from Mclure to the Bone a part Napolean, making it into slow elk range forever. No replanting the wood but making it all range, it's already a done deal, Neil.
Jel--There's a tear in my beer.

Jel, I wondered what deer do when an entire mountain is burned off, no cover, no big fir, no winter range???? I took a good hike in the burn here in kelowna the other day and it was full of deer, tons of mulies, whities, living quite well in the match stick forest. A long way from any timber too I might add. Didnt see any elk!
Ill also mention that I regularly find muley sheds in areas where theres lots of cattle, doesnt seem to chase em out of the territory!

[frenchbar]

I tried following this thread again and well....

WHAMO ! :eek:

....perhaps things will make more sense after a good drink, or two ? :-|
or a sixty:lol:

[Jelvis]

Hey mark, this area here was logged all over because of root rot and stumps turned upside down, then logged as if it was like a fire would have burned it, then a real fire 2003 did burn it. Then guess what, they did'nt leave match stick burnt trees they logged all those out 2--
Leaving no cover for the poor muley and odd moose.
I was hoping they would leave the burn like Kelowna but noooo. Cut em all down-GONE! Don. I mean mark.
Different then Kelowna, they were game savvy and left the burnt trees, not here took em all the ----ers.
--What do you think of those apples?
Jel--did'nt even leave the burnt trees for cover, what a shame, some hunters cried.

[Remmy]

Jelvis, you need to walk away from the computer and wake up, we adapt so do the deer. I have read your posts and there have been some good information and then ...................bull __it

[Jelvis]

Remmy
I can't walk away--ok. I'll explain later.
I keep abreast of muley information Rem.
What part was not up to standard regarding the mule deer
I am interested in the southern interior mule deer honest.
Any strategy that would enhance the healthy growth of the big eared deer. From winter range protection to what's best in terms of harvest, sustainability, natural selection, buck/doe ratio, yearlings, fawns and mature.
Let's keep this important topic alive with a planned strategy. I think you would agree with that.
Jel--your hunting pal.

[Remmy]

I agree, substainability is the topic we need to look at in the whole region. I think instead of having the other regions looking at extending the seasons we should also shut down the deer season after the rememberence day weekend and having a late youth season trying to recrute new hunters...just my opinion.

[Jelvis]

Remmy--I like that, all seasons the same as far as the last day of the season. So like your saying instead of making all the others longer to be like reg 3, shorten reg 3 to Nov 11th or so like reg 8 mu's.
A late season for youth too, hey I bet the young hunter's, the young men and women would vote for that.
Some older hunters could use the late youth season to get their lucky kids into the hunting mix.
Some good ideas there Remmy, might just work.
Your ideas pretty good reg 3 hunting gos season closes same as other regions? Would stop the influx of hunters into reg 3, 4 sure and probably increase muley pop in 3.
Jel--some heads up.

[GoatGuy]

Remmy--I like that, all seasons the same as far as the last day of the season. So like your saying instead of making all the others longer to be like reg 3, shorten reg 3 to Nov 11th or so like reg 8 mu's.
A late season for youth too, hey I bet the young hunter's, the young men and women would vote for that.
Some older hunters could use the late youth season to get their lucky kids into the hunting mix.
Some good ideas there Remmy, might just work.
Your ideas pretty good reg 3 hunting gos season closes same as other regions? Would stop the influx of hunters into reg 3, 4 sure and probably increase muley pop in 3.
Jel--some heads up.

Increase the muley pop?

Do you have buck:doe ratios in Region 3 that are so skewed it's affecting fecundity?

[6616]

Remmy--I like that, all seasons the same as far as the last day of the season. So like your saying instead of making all the others longer to be like reg 3, shorten reg 3 to Nov 11th or so like reg 8 mu's.
A late season for youth too, hey I bet the young hunter's, the young men and women would vote for that.
Some older hunters could use the late youth season to get their lucky kids into the hunting mix.
Some good ideas there Remmy, might just work.
Your ideas pretty good reg 3 hunting gos season closes same as other regions? Would stop the influx of hunters into reg 3, 4 sure and probably increase muley pop in 3.
Jel--some heads up.


You guys sound like you think the mule deer are in crisis. If the situation isn't desperate why apply deperate measures?

[Islandeer]

I tried following this thread again and well....

WHAMO ! :eek:

....perhaps things will make more sense after a good drink, or two ? :-|

I think that a hefty inhalement of kamloopian Jelweed is required to keep up ... :roll:

[GoatGuy]

Hey mark, this area here was logged all over because of root rot and stumps turned upside down, then logged as if it was like a fire would have burned it, then a real fire 2003 did burn it. Then guess what, they did'nt leave match stick burnt trees they logged all those out 2--
Leaving no cover for the poor muley and odd moose.
I was hoping they would leave the burn like Kelowna but noooo. Cut em all down-GONE! Don. I mean mark.
Different then Kelowna, they were game savvy and left the burnt trees, not here took em all the ----ers.
--What do you think of those apples?
Jel--did'nt even leave the burnt trees for cover, what a shame, some hunters cried.

I do see where you're coming from on this one.

[Jelvis]

Just the facts man, In reg 3 the leh system for antlerless mule deer takes place in november, when the rut is shakin and bakin for mule deer. Who dah what, thought of that gem, lol. Leh doe in the full swing of the mule deer rut. Not thought out too well, lol.
Let's put those leh does in October, BAM!
Then people out filling an antlerless tag won't see the the attending bucks only from October 23rd til end of october. Then go four or better til the end. POW!
Done like dinner, change leh antlerless mules to october.
Jel--Book em Danno!

[GoatGuy]

Just the facts man, In reg 3 the leh system for antlerless mule deer takes place in november, when the rut is shakin and bakin for mule deer. Who dah what, thought of that gem, lol. Leh doe in the full swing of the mule deer rut. Not thought out too well, lol.
Let's put those leh does in October, BAM!
Then people out filling an antlerless tag won't see the the attending bucks only from October 23rd til end of october. Then go four or better til the end. POW!
Done like dinner, change leh antlerless mules to october.
Jel--Book em Danno!

Why?

What's wrong with people seeing bucks?

What does this have to do with helping to increase the mule deer population?

[Jelvis]

In the gym yesterday a hunter of the mule deer kind, suggested that in the kammy area all season should be four point or bigger, let those juveniles get some weight on their bodies. Suggesting a buck can't get past the third year. As far as bucks go. Therefore small bucks.
Nothing wrong with hunters seeing big bucks but when their out hunting for antlerless for tender meat in the full swing of the rut in november, the doe they want is standing there with two others and a big buck, so now hey I got a buck tag, POW! If it was october that buck ain't that vulnerable.
So if buck is'nt shot because it was in october before peak, the doe would be, and the buck will breed in nov.
Therefore strong buck genes past on, by natural selection.
Jel--I hope I did'nt lose you on the october leh idea.

[Will]

Nothing wrong with hunters seeing big bucks but when their out hunting for antlerless for tender meat in the full swing of the rut in november, the doe they want is standing there with two others and a big buck, so now hey I got a buck tag, POW! If it was october that buck ain't that vulnerable.
Sure Jelvis...but if that same hunter had filled his doe tag in Oct........he'd still be out looking for that Big Ol Stinkey come Nov when he's vulnerable ;-)

I do hear you on changing the Nov Leh to Oct though.......if for nothing else just to leave the does alone at a critical time of the year. Although given the numbers of deer around here as of late I suspect they are managing just fine as is........:-?

[frenchbar]

Remmy--I like that, all seasons the same as far as the last day of the season. So like your saying instead of making all the others longer to be like reg 3, shorten reg 3 to Nov 11th or so like reg 8 mu's.
A late season for youth too, hey I bet the young hunter's, the young men and women would vote for that.
Some older hunters could use the late youth season to get their lucky kids into the hunting mix.
Some good ideas there Remmy, might just work.
Your ideas pretty good reg 3 hunting gos season closes same as other regions? Would stop the influx of hunters into reg 3, 4 sure and probably increase muley pop in 3.
Jel--some heads up.
A late season for youth to me anyways,wouldnt be utilized very well,how many youths would be able to take advantage of it,not a whole lot i would think .many are into school and sporting activities and such at that time of the yr ,at least mine are .to me the early season late aug early sept would be better for youth openings .jmo.