BAIT BAN!!!! anyone know

[000buck]

Apparently the MOE has made a decision to simplify the fresh water regs.
After much grousing from confused fisher....persons moe conveined a panel of "experts" to decide how to simplify the regs. The out come is said to be this

BAIT BAN SINGLE BARBLESS HOOKS ONLY province wide all lakes except a few that will be open to under 16 over 65.


any one one have any inside info on this?

Is a hook and worm not the very essance of fishing. Is this a move to cut hatchery operations and save a couple bucks, what are paying for if not hatcheries anyway.

funny this move... Now instead of needing a lawyer to go fishing, you'll need a lawyer if you do. :roll:

[NaStY]

Been hearing of a bait ban for several years now. Doesn't surprise me one bit. I doubt it will come to be though. People don't just fish for trout and salmon so its very unlikely to get passed....

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not that I am aware of??

They are supposedly going to a system that uses 4 different "classes" of lakes. I don't have the info handy but someone else might.

R-1 woud be the least restrictive and allow bait as it is now permitted.

R-4 would be the most restrictive and be zero retention, bait ban, single barbless...yada, yada, yada.

Maybe someone else can fill in the blanks.

SSS

[BlacktailStalker]

"said to be this" are the key words here,
lets wait and see.

[#1fishslayer]

Stupid IMO

[Bowzone_Mikey]

following suit with other parts of the country.... the problem is Alberta has 800 lakes province wide .. BC has 800 lakes within 150 km of my house

Stupid
IMO too

[Chuck]

Seems to me that they're hell bent on making fishing a rich man's sport. Once was a time it was lots of fun and you didn't have to watch over your shoulder, in case you might be doing something wrong. Well.........all I can say is "Dam the rivers - ban the fishing".

And barbless hooks? Next it will be hunting with only blanks in the rifle.

Now I feel better!

[Browningmirage]

And barbless hooks? Next it will be hunting with only blanks in the rifle.

Now I feel better!

come on now, it isnt even close to the same thing, lets get real here

[Benthos]

i'm interested where you have been hearing this.

a bait ban would be pretty harmful to the ice fishers

[Ddog]

those rumors have been going around for years,,first i heard of it in lakes though, it was originally rumored to ban bait in all BC rivers, and single barbless hook, which it is now, they will never completely ban baits in all lakes in BC, i could see them turning more lakes into "fly only" but they will never completely ban baits in all lakes. it just isnt feasible. to many people and families fish lakes with the big ol gang troll or willow leafs with a wormie dangling on the end and they simply dont know any other way, or are not willing to try any other way.

[ultramagbob]

LOL the fly guys win again

[horshur]

I heard they were considering LEF..limited entry fishing on class II waters as well.

[Fisher-Dude]

Apparently the MOE has made a decision to simplify the fresh water regs.
After much grousing from confused fisher....persons moe conveined a panel of "experts" to decide how to simplify the regs. The out come is said to be this

BAIT BAN SINGLE BARBLESS HOOKS ONLY province wide all lakes except a few that will be open to under 16 over 65.


any one one have any inside info on this?

Is a hook and worm not the very essance of fishing. Is this a move to cut hatchery operations and save a couple bucks, what are paying for if not hatcheries anyway.

funny this move... Now instead of needing a lawyer to go fishing, you'll need a lawyer if you do. :roll:

Where did you hear this? At our last FHAC meeting, it was explained as R1 to R4, with only restricted lakes having bait bans and single barbless (essentially the same lakes that are restricted now). In fact, I was told of the 400 lakes in region 8, only a few would have restrictions, from the guy who developed the new R1 to R4 system.

Your source may have got this wrong. There's nothing on the MoE website in this regard.

[thunderheart]

After much grousing from confused fisher....persons



just my opinion ..lol this politically correctness has got to go .. i mean damnit .. its fisherman .. not fishers or fish persons .. anglers at the very least .. i commercial fished for many year and ALL .. and i mean ALL the woman in the industry were oh so proud to call them self fishermen ..i still an very close to whats left of the industry and to this day, never once have i heard the words "i am a fisher". sorry for the hijack, but come on

and 000buck this has nothing to do with you lol one can see you were at a loss as to what to call them ..
who comes up with this bull shyte anyway

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I almost 100% certain that this is strictly a rumour.

It's the Province's mandate to get more people out there fishing. Not less.

Free Family fishing weekends are one example of their effort to get more people on the water.

People are turned off by complicated regulations so they are trying to resolve this issue. Seems like there was a differnet set of regs for each lake:roll:.
We should see those changes very soon.

SSS

[BiG Boar]

Barbless and baitless hooks would be closer to every second round in the chamber is a dummy round.

[pikey]

It's all meaningless anyway without enforcement of which there is very little.

[bighornbob]

I went to a open house last year on the fishing regs and as stated all lakes will be designated R1 to R4.

Most lakes will fit into one of these categories with no real major changes. If anything more lakes will actually lessen their regulations (i.e. 2 fish limit up to 5) then lakes getting tighter restrictions.

The one real change is catch limit will be standarized across the southern half of the province. The daily limit will become 5. That means one less in region 3 and I believe 1 more in region 4.

There was no talk of any bait bans. This would effectivly kill off fishing in BC.

BHB

[goatdancer]

And what is wrong with barbless hooks? The bait ban issue has been going on for a while. Haven't seen anything yet that states it will happen.

[Fisher-Dude]

And what is wrong with barbless hooks? The bait ban issue has been going on for a while. Haven't seen anything yet that states it will happen.

Ever take a little kid fishing with barbless hooks and watch them lose every fish? Not a very good way to get them hooked on fishin'.

Oh, by the way, the most recent study on fish mortality finds that 4.2% of fish released from barbless hooks die...and the 4.4% of fish released with barbed hooks die. It's a complete fallacy that barbed hooks increase mortality - it's how the fish is fought and handled that makes all the difference. I'll find the link to the study if you don't believe me.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=goatdancer;393973]And what is wrong with barbless hooks? quote]

The lakes with lower retention limits will continue to have barbless restrictions as they have now........the lakes that allow bait(like "family oriented" lakes....generally with hight retention limits) will continue to allow bait and barbs.

Nothing wrong with barbless regs where they currently exist....but my kids like to catch fish and "bonk" them:cool: so we will continue to fish where the regs are less restrictive.

SSS

[Kody94]

Ever take a little kid fishing with barbless hooks and watch them lose every fish? Not a very good way to get them hooked on fishin'.

Oh, by the way, the most recent study on fish mortality finds that 4.2% of fish released from barbless hooks die...and the 4.4% of fish released with barbed hooks die. It's a complete fallacy that barbed hooks increase mortality - it's how the fish is fought and handled that makes all the difference. I'll find the link to the study if you don't believe me.

I'd like a link to the study. Not cuz I don't believe you though...it'll help settle an argument. :)

[Patrick]

I too have read a number of articles that suggest only a small difference in the mortality of fish caught on barbed and barbless hooks. Is there any information on the mortality of fish hooked, played and lost. It seems to me that inorder to gather the stats on released fish, a great many more fish would have to be hooked and played on barbless inorder to get a comparison group.

[goatdancer]

Nothing wrong with kids fishing with barbed hooks. They like to keep the fish they catch, totally understandable. It's just a lot easier to release a fish without barbs on a hook, especially the little ones that I don't want to keep. Usually they will 'self release' with a little slack in the line. Or you could always use a 'catch and release' knot......

[GoatGuy]

Apparently the MOE has made a decision to simplify the fresh water regs.
After much grousing from confused fisher....persons moe conveined a panel of "experts" to decide how to simplify the regs. The out come is said to be this

BAIT BAN SINGLE BARBLESS HOOKS ONLY province wide all lakes except a few that will be open to under 16 over 65.


any one one have any inside info on this?

Is a hook and worm not the very essance of fishing. Is this a move to cut hatchery operations and save a couple bucks, what are paying for if not hatcheries anyway.

funny this move... Now instead of needing a lawyer to go fishing, you'll need a lawyer if you do. :roll:



As mentioned there is a new classification system designed to simply the regulations, like we need in hunting. Some lakes will have bait bans, as they do now, but most won't.

Whoever told you this has to be informed that glue is actually used to stick things together.

[Rock Doctor]

All of Region 7B is "Single barbless hook" right now (with the exception of lakes), and there is a "Bait Ban" for all waters.

It doesn't seem to have effected the # of people out fishing around here much.
Making the lakes "Single Barbless" might slow things down a bit though:confused:

RD

[FlyingHigh]

i'm pretty sure this is a rumour. but if it's not, you won't hear me complaining to loudly. if they ban bait, it would put the brakes on the ice fishermen ruining good trout lakes by dumping shiners and such in.

i fly fish 99% of the time, so it would actually be a good thing to have a bait ban imho. however, i can see how it would be a deterant to people who don't fish much and don't know the more advanced techniques of fishing.

[Fisher-Dude]

i'm pretty sure this is a rumour. but if it's not, you won't hear me complaining to loudly. if they ban bait, it would put the brakes on the ice fishermen ruining good trout lakes by dumping shiners and such in.

i fly fish 99% of the time, so it would actually be a good thing to have a bait ban imho. however, i can see how it would be a deterant to people who don't fish much and don't know the more advanced techniques of fishing.

Ice fishermen? What about the dorks who fish in the summer and dump shiners in the lake, or pour gas in the lake, or leave their campfire going, or throw garbage in the lake? Those asses fish at all times of the year, and cutting out ice fishing, which is an excellent family-oriented pasttime on that premise is plain stupidity.

Watch how broadly you swing that brush, you may paint yourself with it.

[ohotnik]

i'm pretty sure this is a rumour. but if it's not, you won't hear me complaining to loudly. if they ban bait, it would put the brakes on the ice fishermen ruining good trout lakes by dumping shiners and such in.

i fly fish 99% of the time, so it would actually be a good thing to have a bait ban imho. however, i can see how it would be a deterant to people who don't fish much and don't know the more advanced techniques of fishing.

I am fishing a lot. But I do not flyfish, I prefer stare at the bobber. I also love ice fishing, but I never dump shiners in the water. I eat the fish I catch and my friends consider me as a good fisherman... I have two small sons and they want to go fishing with me. How the heck should I teach them fishing if I can not use a bobber and a worm?! Should I start to teach my two-year old son flyfishig with $500 rod and tackle? It is supposed to be a free country with the right of choice. I do not like when I am forced to quit doing what I like and what used to be perfectly legal and suddenly only flyfishing is the only legal way to fish... BS! Just my IMHO.

[PGK]

I haven't read the thread or most of the responses, but

Whoever told you that is out to lunch. The current changes on schedule for most of the province are mostly geared at getting more people out fishing. So we're seeing A LOT of previously 'bain ban single barbless hook winter closure' lakes being blown wide open to 'anything goes' type of regulations.

I wish the BC gov't would make a science based fisheries management decision for once, instead of letting people go willy nilly through the province, bonking and baiting whatever they like in the name of 'Angler Recruitment and Retention' This type of management regime does no good for our fisheries, and certainly does not foster a love and respect for fish and fishing.

Having worked in fisheries management in both BC and Alberta, I can say without a doubt in my mind that Alberta's fisheries are far far better than BC's. In terms of fish numbers/size, management decisions/public consultation and regulation clarity.

One more thing. I wish MOE would get off their asses and make the whole province barbless only.

[shadowhunter]

the barbless hook regulation is a joke, there is little diffrence in mortalit rates in barb and barbless hooks, the only real difference is how many fish you lose, also what is the point of having a bait ban yes i can see it to stop intruducing invading spices but really com' on at least let us use corn.

[PGK]

Ever take a little kid fishing with barbless hooks and watch them lose every fish? Not a very good way to get them hooked on fishin'.

Oh, by the way, the most recent study on fish mortality finds that 4.2% of fish released from barbless hooks die...and the 4.4% of fish released with barbed hooks die. It's a complete fallacy that barbed hooks increase mortality - it's how the fish is fought and handled that makes all the difference. I'll find the link to the study if you don't believe me.

I'm not disagreeing with you on barbed hook hooking mortality!

Did you ever stop to think that barbless hooks create less handling time and therefore less fish mortality.? How many times have you had to reach in a trout's mouth and reef on a barbed hook to get it out? More than barbless hooks, I will bet a good bit on.

The discussion, to those who fish, has never been about barbed vs barbless caused mortality. It's been about reducing handling times. And let me tell you, it works!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

One more thing. I wish MOE would get off their asses and make the whole province barbless only.

Why? So you have more fish to yourself? The idea is to get MORE kids out fishing, and discouraging them with gear restrictions is WRONG. If you want to use barbless hooks, knock yourself out. Just don't impose what is proven to be a non-issue on other people.

[PGK]

Why? So you have more fish to yourself? The idea is to get MORE kids out fishing, and discouraging them with gear restrictions is WRONG. If you want to use barbless hooks, knock yourself out. Just don't impose what is proven to be a non-issue on other people.

IT IS an issue. Don't try to get pushy shovy with me buddy. I have never seen a difference in my own numbers between barbed or not. Any idiot knows that barbed hooks increase handling time. Handling time kills fish. Mortality increases exponentially with increased time out of water.

Maybe you should put forth a provision for any angler under the age of 18 be allowed to use barbed hooks?

[Browningmirage]

the reason there are less people on the water now as opposed to before is because of video games...gauranteed...ive seen kids who loved to fish before outright refuse to go fishing because they wanted to play their video games. Complication of the regs has little to do with it. I would have to agree with PGK though, simplify the regs, make it barbless across the province...but only for people over 14 years old...

[PGK]

the reason there are less people on the water now as opposed to before is because of video games...gauranteed...ive seen kids who loved to fish before outright refuse to go fishing because they wanted to play their video games. Complication of the regs has little to do with it. I would have to agree with PGK though, simplify the regs, make it barbless across the province...but only for people over 14 years old...

:lol: Go back to class little one. There are many many reasons why there are less people fishing. And 'video games' should not be considered one of them. There are a lot of other activities kids put their time into now a days with the advent of many levels of junior sports. Not to mention both parents working full time jobs, the increased cost of fuel, on and on and on!

[FlyingHigh]

Ice fishermen? What about the dorks who fish in the summer and dump shiners in the lake, or pour gas in the lake, or leave their campfire going, or throw garbage in the lake? Those asses fish at all times of the year, and cutting out ice fishing, which is an excellent family-oriented pasttime on that premise is plain stupidity.

Watch how broadly you swing that brush, you may paint yourself with it.

easy there. i merely used ice fishermen as an example. it was the first that came with me. i meant no offense to the ethical ice fishermen out there.

i have nothing against ice fishing itself, in fact i've done it a few times myself, except we used jogs and even small spoons. and we caught fish.

how about a revised edition?

....if they ban bait, it would put the brakes on the ice fishermen and the other dorks ruining good trout lakes by dumping shiners or pour gas in the lake, or leave their campfire going, or throw garbage in the lake or anyone else along that lines. if they couldn't fish because they couldn't use bait, maybe they'd stay at home.


I am fishing a lot. But I do not flyfish, I prefer stare at the bobber. I also love ice fishing, but I never dump shiners in the water. I eat the fish I catch and my friends consider me as a good fisherman... I have two small sons and they want to go fishing with me. How the heck should I teach them fishing if I can not use a bobber and a worm?! Should I start to teach my two-year old son flyfishig with $500 rod and tackle? It is supposed to be a free country with the right of choice. I do not like when I am forced to quit doing what I like and what used to be perfectly legal and suddenly only flyfishing is the only legal way to fish... BS!

perfectly understandable. however, if you would read the last sentence of my post, you'll see i've acknowledged that.
"however, i can see how it would be a deterant to people who don't fish much and don't know the more advanced techniques of fishing.". i think it's great you want to take your kid fishing. if you fish ethically, i don't have a problem. i'm not saying you need to buy a $500 setup at all. if you like to watch a bobber and if that's how you fish and works, great!

on side note with no offense meant, wouldn't a 2 year old get bored just watching a bobber? my experience with kids is they like doing. put a rod in their hand and cast a small spinner or something with them. keep them active even if the spinner doesn't work . have a bobber and bait off to the side so that they can actually see, touch and smell a fish.


my post was my opinion. and as ohotnik stated, it's a free country with the right of choice. that allows me to be entitled to my opinion. i merely expressed the fact that i wouldn't complain loudly if there was a bait ban. there are so many more effective ways to catch fish.

for the record, i'm not heading up the charge to ban bait. note in my first post that i flyfish 99% of the time. the other 1% is with spoons, and oh my god, BAIT! so everyone grab a comfy chair, crack a cold one, and relax.

[Fisher-Dude]

IT IS an issue. Don't try to get pushy shovy with me buddy. I have never seen a difference in my own numbers between barbed or not. Any idiot knows that barbed hooks increase handling time. Handling time kills fish. Mortality increases exponentially with increased time out of water.

Maybe you should put forth a provision for any angler under the age of 18 be allowed to use barbed hooks?

Do you even stop to THINK that the studies on fish mortality include the handling time in each scenario? There's NO difference in barbed vs barbless mortality, bottom line. But, you've never been one to listen to facts.

[Dirty]

I haven't read the thread or most of the responses, but

Whoever told you that is out to lunch. The current changes on schedule for most of the province are mostly geared at getting more people out fishing. So we're seeing A LOT of previously 'bain ban single barbless hook winter closure' lakes being blown wide open to 'anything goes' type of regulations.

I wish the BC gov't would make a science based fisheries management decision for once, instead of letting people go willy nilly through the province, bonking and baiting whatever they like in the name of 'Angler Recruitment and Retention' This type of management regime does no good for our fisheries, and certainly does not foster a love and respect for fish and fishing.

Having worked in fisheries management in both BC and Alberta, I can say without a doubt in my mind that Alberta's fisheries are far far better than BC's. In terms of fish numbers/size, management decisions/public consultation and regulation clarity.

One more thing. I wish MOE would get off their asses and make the whole province barbless only.


Alberta may be mo' betta in your eyes, but they don't have the overlap problems and management issues from different agencies to deal with. The salmon in BC make for interesting management because of interactions of DFO and MOE. There is lack of a unified managing agency of fisheries in BC.

I don't see what the problem is with barbed hooks in lakes. A lot of the lakes in BC are put and take lakes or stocked lakes. The fish are there to be killed. In fact, without supplement, a lot of these lakes would not have the populations they do. Barbed hooks are not the problem, and barbless hooks are not the answer. I agree with you PGK that barbless hooks reduce mortality during catch and release, but I do not support a blanket barbless hook rule. If you are fishing to kill, then barbed makes sense. If you are catch and release fishing then barbless makes sense. It should be at the users discretion.

[kootenayelkslayer]

I don't think it's fair to go barbless all over the province. If a fisherman is going out to catch, kill, and eat fish, and it's legal to keep the barb, then by all means leave the barb. But for many people who are going out for the fun of catch and release, pinch your barbs. It's as simple as that.
I don't think the regs need to be simplified, it's not like they're indecipherable. I don't like the idea of making province wide restrictions when there are so many unique fisheries within a province.

[Fisher-Dude]

....if they ban bait, it would put the brakes on the ice fishermen and the other dorks ruining good trout lakes by dumping shiners or pour gas in the lake, or leave their campfire going, or throw garbage in the lake or anyone else along that lines. if they couldn't fish because they couldn't use bait, maybe they'd stay at home.


It's already illegal to transport live bait fish - highly illegal in fact. We shouldn't be restricting the law-abiders in an attempt to stop poachers who don't give a rat's ass about the law in any case. Remember the gun registry's failure in a similar attempt?

[PGK]

"Facts" spewed from your garbage filled mouth? Ha. Have you ever done any fisheries research? Doubtful.
I have. My own and others. I've witnessed poor, ignorant anglers become skilled at landing and properly releasing fish almost overnight due to the barbless hooks restriction. Not only does being forced to fish barbless hooks make you a better angler, but it increases your awareness of how little stress fish can handle, especially trout.
Also, it's a simplification. Barbless. Province wide. Simple.

[000buck]

Did you ever stop to think that barbless hooks create less handling time and therefore less fish mortality.? How many times have you had to reach in a trout's mouth and reef on a barbed hook to get it out? More than barbless hooks, I will bet a good bit on.

The discussion, to those who fish, has never been about barbed vs barbless caused mortality. It's been about reducing handling times. And let me tell you, it works!!![/quote]



TOO CHEAP TO CUT OFF THE HOOK? 50 #4 mustads 1.99 at wal mart.

Here on the Island 80% of the main road lakes are stocked ...WITH NON BREEDING CUT/BOW ( sterile as mule ) just for us to eat who cares about mortality I want em dead before they hit the plate anyway. we're not talking about steelies here just good old plain hatchery trout.

[PGK]

When it comes to overall catch and release mortality, and even delayed mortality, there appear to be numerous factors involved beyond the hook type. The overall handling of the fish is what is critical to it's survival. If the fish is being hooked in the lip by a treble barbed hook, the literature is indicating that this is way less traumatic than being throat hooked by a barbless hook. Barbless hooks may only be helping us feel better about catch and release, and doing very little for the fish.
Personally I still think the best reason for using barbless hooks, is that they are much easier to remove from an earlobe, nostril or finger.

You've touched on another good point. Active vs inactive angling methods. Whereas it is darn near impossible to throat hook a fish on a fly or actively fished spoon or spinner, it is highly likely that when fishing 'inactively,' the fish will swallow hook + bait and be killed over 80% of the time.
"Inactive" refers to methods that involve bait such as (can I say this?) 'ni**er fishing' IE: weight the bait near the bottom, put bell on tip of road and wait for bell to jingle fishing

[Fisher-Dude]

When it comes to overall catch and release mortality, and even delayed mortality, there appear to be numerous factors involved beyond the hook type. The overall handling of the fish is what is critical to it's survival. If the fish is being hooked in the lip by a treble barbed hook, the literature is indicating that this is way less traumatic than being throat hooked by a barbless hook. Barbless hooks may only be helping us feel better about catch and release, and doing very little for the fish.
Personally I still think the best reason for using barbless hooks, is that they are much easier to remove from an earlobe, nostril or finger.

I have a buddy that is an Okanagan Lake fishin' fanatic, and he's fished it for many years. OK Lk is single barbless now - he's confident that he has killed way more fish by piercing their brain cavities with big single barbless hooks on Lymans and Apexes than he ever did with the smaller, barbed trebles he used to use. He says that the big trout are more likely to take the single barbless in deeper than the trebles. Seems like a reasonable theory, and he has lots of experience to back it up.

[kootenayelkslayer]

When it comes to overall catch and release mortality, and even delayed mortality, there appear to be numerous factors involved beyond the hook type. The overall handling of the fish is what is critical to it's survival. If the fish is being hooked in the lip by a treble barbed hook, the literature is indicating that this is way less traumatic than being throat hooked by a barbless hook. .

Well I think that is pretty obvious, but if a treble gets into the throat that's a dead fish. And if a barbless catches the lip then its an extremely easy release. Where a fish is hooked is kind of a pointless argument, you know what I mean?

[PGK]

I have a buddy that is an Okanagan Lake fishin' fanatic, and he's fished it for many years. OK Lk is single barbless now - he's confident that he has killed way more fish by piercing their brain cavities with big single barbless hooks on Lymans and Apexes than he ever did with the smaller, barbed trebles he used to use. He says that the big trout are more likely to take the single barbless in deeper than the trebles. Seems like a reasonable theory, and he has lots of experience to back it up.

Plenty of studies have been done that support this theory. And it's good logic. But how simple do the regs become if we start implementing 'treble barbless only'
C'est la vie

[Fisher-Dude]

PUBLICATION: Cape Breton Post
DATE: 2008.04.23
SECTION: Sports
PAGE: B3
COLUMN: Tight lines
BYLINE: MacLean, Don
WORD COUNT: 576

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's the point of barbless hooks?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Famed American angler Lee Wulff is credited with coining the phrase - "A sportfish is too valuable to be caught only once." Today catch and release angling is a growing trend in Cape Breton as it is in most parts of North America. There is no question that catch and release can play a valuable role in sportfish management. When properly done, with care and the right equipment, mortality is almost zero. The right technique includes playing the fish quickly and landing it carefully, not dragging it up on the shore or using a net with large mesh that removes the fish's protective layer of slime. Another catch and release technique that is bound to get a discussion going is the use of barbed or barbless hooks when fishing. Some anglers have taken on a religious zeal in promoting the use of barbless hooks as the conservation measure to end all conservation measures.

Barbs are the little bumps at the point of the hook. They serve two functions, on bait hooks they help prevent the bait from sliding off the hook and they also are supposed to keep the fish from sliding off the hook. Many anglers feel that by removing the barb on the hook by filing it off or pinching it down they can release fish much easier. Today some hook manufacturers also produce hooks with no barb at all.

Two American fisheries scientists, Dan Schill and Rod Scarpella, reviewed the results of several studies on barbed and barbless hooks and published their results in the November 1997 issue of the North American Journal of Fisheries Management. In their results they found that the difference in hooking mortality was insignificant. Fish caught on barbed flies or lures and released suffered a mortality rate of 4.5 per cent against a rate of 4.2 per cent for barbless hooks.

This year Atlantic salmon anglers in Nova Scotia will be required to use barbless hooks when fishing salmon. The change comes into effect on June 1 for Salmon Fishing Area 19 (Eastern Cape Breton) but not until October 1 for Area 18 (Western Cape Breton and Northern Nova Scotia) which includes the Margaree. I generally squeeze the barb down on my flies because I find it quicker to take the hook out of any fish I plan on releasing as well as out of myself when I hook my cap, ear or some other part of my anatomy. I believe that how you play the fish, and handle it when you have it in your hand, together with water temperature, are much more critical than whether the hook has a barb or not. This is especially true if you use circle hooks which cause minimal damage to the fish when hooked.

[Fisher-Dude]

Two American fisheries scientists, Dan Schill and Rod Scarpella, reviewed the results of several studies on barbed and barbless hooks and published their results in the November 1997 issue of the North American Journal of Fisheries Management. In their results they found that the difference in hooking mortality was insignificant. Fish caught on barbed flies or lures and released suffered a mortality rate of 4.5 per cent against a rate of 4.2 per cent for barbless hooks.


I'm sorry Tinney, I thought it was only 4.4% mortality with barbs, not a whopping 4.5%. :lol:

[OOBuck]

Anyone ever thought of using high explosives,, no hook no bait... Hummm might be something to think about.:razz:

[PGK]

FD, do you know how to read? Or do you just guess at what the letters mean? Go back and read what I said.
I said I do not disagree with the many many publications which point out mortality from barbed hooks is not statistically different from barbless hooks.

In many, many jurisdictions, barbless hooks have been shown to reduce overall hooking mortality and stress because of reduced handling time. There have also been many published works done on the cumulative effects of stressing events on the mortality of fish.
When you take away barbs, you make it easier to release the fish. If you want to keep the fish, learn how to play the fish properly with barbless hooks. It's not rocket science, it's fishing.

I will no longer discuss this with you, as I know for certain you are one of those people whose opinions run so deep, they will never ever learn how ignorant of the big picture they truly are.

[One Shot]

Anyone ever thought of using high explosives,, no hook no bait... Hummm might be something to think about.:razz:

:biggrin: HE works real well if you know how.....:biggrin:

[Fisher-Dude]

FD, do you know how to read? Or do you just guess at what the letters mean? Go back and read what I said.
I said I do not disagree with the many many publications which point out mortality from barbed hooks is not statistically different from barbless hooks.

In many, many jurisdictions, barbless hooks have been shown to reduce overall hooking mortality and stress because of reduced handling time. There have also been many published works done on the cumulative effects of stressing events on the mortality of fish.
When you take away barbs, you make it easier to release the fish. If you want to keep the fish, learn how to play the fish properly with barbless hooks. It's not rocket science, it's fishing.

I will no longer discuss this with you, as I know for certain you are one of those people whose opinions run so deep, they will never ever learn how ignorant of the big picture they truly are.

I produced a scientific study that backed up my point of view. Can you?

[steel_ram]

Caught hundreds of Steelhead and Salmon on barbless hooks, and can't say that hook exactly falls out when the slack is given. Fact is barbless penetrate deeper, and once set into a fish's mouth, are as hard as nails to remove.

Bait does kill fish, they tend to be more likely to engulf the offering causing punctured gills. Some fish are nearly impossible to catch by any other means, so what percentage of mortality are we willing to accept to continue a fishery? Some watersheads are particularly vulnerable, where as another, right next door can handle a pounding. Do we want simple blanket regulations or a Vancouver phonebook thick synopsis with reg's for every specific creek, pond and lake?

[Fisher-Dude]

A reading list for Tinney, and anyone else who thinks barbless is the way to go. I look forward to reading any study that says the opposite.



Dubois, R. B. and R. R. Dubielzig. 2004. Effect of hook type on mortality, trauma, and capture efficiency of wild stream trout caught by angling with spinners. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 24:609-616.

Dubois, R. B. and R. R. Dubielzig. 2004. Effect of hook type on mortality, trauma, and capture efficiency of wild, stream-resident trout caught by active baitfishing. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 24: 617-623.

Meka, J. M. The influence of hook type, angler experience, and fish size on injury rates and the duration of capture in an Alaskan catch-and-release rainbow trout fishery. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 24:1309-1321.

Schaeffer, J. S. and E. M. Hoffman. 2002. Performance of barbed and barbless hooks in a marine recreational fishery. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 22:229-235.

Schill, D. J. and R. L. Scarpella. 1997. Barbed hook restrictions in catch-and-release trout fisheries: a social issue. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 17:873-881.

Taylor, M. J. and K. R. White. 1992. A meta-analysis of hooking mortality of resident trout. North American Journal of Fisheries Management 12:760-767.

Westerman, F. A. 1932. Experiments show insignificant loss of hooked immature trout when they are returned to water. Michigan Department of Conservation, Monthly Bulletin. 2(12): 1-6


Here's an interesting fishing site that discusses the science:

http://skinnymoose.com/fishgeek/category/fishing-regulations/page/2/

Quote from the site:

Clearly, there has been no demonstrated evidence that barbless hooks cause lower mortality rates than barbed hooks. However, barbless hooks are becoming a more and more popular regulation in recreational fisheries. Why is it that these regulations persist? Even in Idaho, where Schill and Scarpella demonstrated the facts, barbless restrictions exist in many waters. I believe that the barbless regulation is simply a feel-good regulation. People are still convinced that barbless hooks “must” be better than barbed, despite what the science says.

Simply put, a mouth hooked fish, handled properly, has a very miniscule chance of dying whether or not the hook used is barbed or barbless. Mortality issues arise when the hook is swallowed and significant bleeding and tearing occur, as well as when a fish is improperly handled and held out of the water for too long. Therefore, we should quit worrying about the little barb that helps anglers land more fish, and start thinking about ways to improve other facets of angling mortality, particularly how we handle the fish once caught.

One final note: Schill and Scarpella quote the annual estimated NATURAL mortality of trout in streams to be between 30% - 65%. With such an incredibly high mortality rate already occuring, most fishing mortality is probably compensatory (the fish would have died naturally by the end of the year, whether or not you killed it). Therefore, how can we be justified in griping about a 0.3% mortality difference between barbed and barbless hooks?

[GoatGuy]

FD, do you know how to read? Or do you just guess at what the letters mean? Go back and read what I said.
I said I do not disagree with the many many publications which point out mortality from barbed hooks is not statistically different from barbless hooks.

In many, many jurisdictions, barbless hooks have been shown to reduce overall hooking mortality and stress because of reduced handling time. There have also been many published works done on the cumulative effects of stressing events on the mortality of fish.
When you take away barbs, you make it easier to release the fish. If you want to keep the fish, learn how to play the fish properly with barbless hooks. It's not rocket science, it's fishing.

I will no longer discuss this with you, as I know for certain you are one of those people whose opinions run so deep, they will never ever learn how ignorant of the big picture they truly are.

cite something, it will help your case.

[Dirty]

Excellent job Sherlocke Fisher-Dude. Great scientific data to support your point of view. Everybody knows that PGK loves the scientific data. I will leave off with one word, "Pwned".

[Browningmirage]

http://www.gbflycasters.org/fishouts/2005/gerle%20lake/Meka%20NAJFM%202004.pdf

FD,
This is a good article too. Lets just say that barbed and non-barbed hooks have exactly the same mortality after handling. What about the proportion of fish that are not landed because they are lost due to barbless hooks (people on here say its impossible to keep them on). Is it possible that because there is reduced likeliehood of landing a fish, that there is less mortality because of that?

When we do coded wire tagging (small tag in the nose), the mortality is similar to that observed with surgical implantation of an acoustic, even though surgery is obviously more traumatic. Could it be that handling events are actually the problem, and that by reducing said events with the use of barbless hooks, we are actually improving survival?

[Deerwhacker]

the reason there are less people on the water now as opposed to before is because of video games...gauranteed...ive seen kids who loved to fish before outright refuse to go fishing because they wanted to play their video games. Complication of the regs has little to do with it. I would have to agree with PGK though, simplify the regs, make it barbless across the province...but only for people over 14 years old...

less people fishing?? in the last 15 years at all of my fishing spots the number of people has gone up in excess of 1,200% As for the barbless thing mabee barbed hooks under the age of 10 , anyone older should be able to keep a tight line. often most fish people loose with barbless hooks has more to do with your hookset than anything.

[Fisher-Dude]

So losing fish helps fish survival. Good theory, and undoubtedly correct. However, people don't go fishing with the objective of losing fish. People go fishing to catch fish (I believe that's why it is called "fishing"). We're trying to encourage people to go fishing, and simplifying regulations and doing what we can to help people, especially kids, CATCH fish, is what it's all about.

BM, I recently saw pictures on here of you and Kris ice fishing and holding up some dandy trout for pictures. By Kris's own admission, all that were landed were released, except for one that you bonked. Kootenayelkslayer apparently released his, but the picture below shows a fish bleeding heavily. Survival was unlikely, and that fish should have been bonked.

Do you know how low the survival rate is for trout in cold weather when they are held out of the water for any length of time, such as for pictures? Frozen gills can kill way more fish than any old barb. BTW, were you using barbless hooks that day?


http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Tako870/2009W-55.jpg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=30264

[Dirty]

I think I have seen one of these on tv before, they are called a "roast" or something like that.

[kootenayelkslayer]

BM, I recently saw pictures on here of you and Kris ice fishing and holding up some dandy trout for pictures. By Kris's own admission, all that were landed were released, except for one that you bonked. Kootenayelkslayer apparently released his, but the picture below shows a fish bleeding heavily. Survival was unlikely, and that fish should have been bonked.
BTW, were you using barbless hooks that day?


http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Tako870/2009W-55.jpg

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=30264

Bleeding heavily?? Give me a break. That fish had a few cuts from when it was wrapped up in the line. That trout was out of the water for about 30 seconds, when I stuck him back in the hole he took off like a rocket. There's no doubt in my mind that that fish is still cruising that lake right now. And ya, it was barbless, the hook popped out like a charm, just the way it should when one is practicing catch and release fishing.

[PGK]

lol

You're a real piece of work FD. You got me alright. I'll give you one thing, you've got no life, and lots of time to spend on the internet.

Bleeding heavily? I'd hardly call two drops from the mouth bleeding heavily. I fish barbless everywhere I go.

And you already proved my point. I don't know why you're citing all these papers, you bolded my very point.

A mouth hooked fish handled properly has a great chance of survival.

Did you read that? Handled properly.

I'll bet greater than 75% of the people on this site have no idea how to handle a fish properly. That's why we need barbless regulations. So joe bloe schmoe doesn't stick his dirty fingers under the operculum of a fish he intends to release.

Barbless barbed whatever. I'm far more concerned with idiots putting fish on rocks for photos, or jamming fingers in the gills, or holding them up by the tail or wearing gloves, or giving them a bear hug or dropping them in the bottom of the boat.

And you want to whine about barbed hooks? Just because you think you're being cool by bashing on me? Get a life dude.

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm far more concerned with idiots putting fish on rocks for photos, or jamming fingers in the gills, or holding them up by the tail

Me too Kris. Me too.

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg126/Tako870/2009W-58.jpg

[000buck]

ok lets remember the topic of conversation here... BAIT BAN / BARBLESS PROVINCE WIDE. THERE IS NO BAN ON IDIOCY LIKE PICTURE TAKING, BOAT DROPPING, GILL GROPING OR FISHY FONDLING.

IN SHORT GIRLS THERE IS NO REGULATION ON HOW THE FISH IS HANDLED JUST HOW IT IS CAUGHT .

seems to me that a 4.3 barbless compared to 4.5 barbed is a Gun Control move ....Don't change nothin just makes a few elitist snobs feel superior.

Catch and release is a bigger issue if you don't like fish ( to eat ) barbed or barbless it is irresponsible to put a single fish at risk of death, they are no less precious than any other game in our province yet its ok to have a few die for fun. Y .

[OOBuck]

I jam my fingers in their gills just before I saw off it's head, gut it and slap it on the BBQ....
Pretty much every fish I land is going to die and be eatin with the exception of a sucker or squaw fish which is just plain outright going to die.
I firmly believe that it should be up to the person to use barbless or barbed hooks....it depends on whether the person is sport fishing(barbless) or food fishing(barbed).

Well said..

I can agree more, man evolved for a reason, we stuck a barb on a fish hooks for a reason, hell whats next NO broadheads so we can practice catch & release archery? I don't give a $hit what percentage of this or that will die much like yourself if I catch a fish salt water in my case its going to die.

The MOE should be told to pull their head from thier butts and take a fresh breath of air. One reason I do not fresh water fish is the regs SUCK A$$!

[GoatGuy]

What about the proportion of fish that are not landed because they are lost due to barbless hooks (people on here say its impossible to keep them on). Is it possible that because there is reduced likeliehood of landing a fish, that there is less mortality because of that?

Well then I guess you'd first have to establish the actual landing rate of barbed vs barbless anglers, not HBC anglers.

If you really want to look at you'll have to dig into the social side.

See what types of anglers are using barbed vs barbless.

Are the barbed folks just catching their limit and then heading home? How many fish do they really catch and release?

Are the barbless anglers catching a pile of fish, which inevitably results in mortality particularly if you're good at catching fish?

What about the folks who don't know how to get a fish to the boat? The hosers on the Thompson who would milk a steelie for 25 min bringing it in belly up then take 10 minutes worth of pictures?

In any case, you guys are still better off citing articles.

Just a guess, but I believe education on both playing and releasing fish would go much further than, from what appears to have been presented, a socially engineered regulation.

[Dirty]

I'll bet greater than 75% of the people on this site have no idea how to handle a fish properly. That's why we need barbless regulations.

This stat must include you as well, we have all seen the pictures. I sure hope you were using barbless hooks, because that is very important for taking hero shot pictures in freezing temperatures. That is very good for a fish, especially when it's bleeding. Oh, btw, Can you cite the scientific paper that this data came from?

[longleader]

“BAIT BAN / BARBLESS PROVINCE WIDE”

I would really doubt that this is in the works. One of the main concerns of the Freshwater Fisheries Society is the declining number of licenses being sold. Don’t forget that our freshwater fisheries management is no longer funded from general government revenue, but primarily from income derived from license sales. Actually, as has been mentioned, and if any fresh water anglers are concerned enough about the resource to keep up on things a bit they will be aware of this – the regulations are in the process of being “simplified” in hopes that more people then will start fishing or at least not quit fishing. Or should I say, buying licenses. I don’t know if this strategy is going to help their situation or not. I personally can’t see it making too much difference in license numbers. Hunter numbers are declining as well, and it has more to with today’s youth being less interested in these sports than anything else. The recruitment just isn’t there, and add to that the older people who trade in the rod and gun for a set of golf clubs, and numbers will naturally decline.

I think, however, that what the proposed simplification does have the potential to do is cause harm to some of our best trophy waters, which will possibly lose some of the protection they enjoy under current regulations. There is a reason why there is a number of lakes province wide that have been designated to be fished under different rules from the regional general regs. Biologists have studied them and felt that they have the potential to provide an outstanding angling experience to those who do appreciate such things. With all the thousands of lakes that can be fished under the general regulations, I really don’t see the need for any of the few best lakes to lose their special status. Why reduce everything to the lowest common denominator? On a brighter side I think there may be a few lakes which will enjoy a higher level of protection.

The whole issue of “complicated regulations” is over blown anyway, assuming most people have the ability to read, or at least have a friend who can, and are not too lazy. The regs are for the most part pretty straightforward. I admit that it would be a daunting task if one were to intend to fish the whole province in one day, but I think most people fish only one or two waters per day. It doesn’t take long to check and see if those waters are listed, if not, then they come under the regional general regs. Too hard or don’t have time? I don’t think so.

I think we should keep in mind that after all fishing is a SPORT, not a life or death pursuit in order to avoid starvation. I like to eat fish as much as the next person, and I have to qualms about bonking some for the table. But I respect the laws and regulations which allow me to do this, by protecting the resource. We are pretty lucky here in B.C. to have the quality of waters we do, and the right to be able to fish them as a public resource. Lets keep it that way.

As for barbless or not, and bait or not, which is the core of this thread, I have my opinions, but that is what they are. To each their own. As a retired person, I fish about 4 months solid each year, nearly every day. So I do try to be mindful of minimizing my impact, and have my preferences, of course. That is, I fly fish only, use mostly barbless hooks, and am not a “numbers” person, going instead for quality of experience and size of fish. When the water gets too warm I quit fishing until it cools off. And I definitely am no elitist, and do respect other’s preferences and choices, as long they are lawful and ethical. I have come to the conclusion that, when fly fishing, going barbless does not mean you are going to lose more fish. What causes you to lose fish is failing to keep a tight line, or a poor hooking to begin with, which barbs won’t help. And releasing a fish is incredibly easier without a barb, and that translates into less handing time and stress for the fish. The small wound caused by, say, a #14 barbed fly hook may not be significantly worse that that of the same fly in barbless, but the end result can be. It all depends on the fisherman, I would rather be a fish released by me using a barbed hook than one released by some clown who happens to be using barbless but who nevertheless manages to cause all sorts of internal injuries through improper handing and/or “hero poses”. Just because a fish swims away upon release is no guarantee of survival. That is a real illusion to those who practice catch & release ice fishing in very cold conditions as well. It takes only seconds for the delicate gills to sustain fatal damage once out of the protection of the water. The same is true for any other damage to the gills, say from line cuts or improper handling; if they are bleeding the fish is almost certainly doomed.

The use of bait is a whole other matter, I think. It has its place, but there are waters and situations where it is allowed where I think it shouldn’t be. Fish have a tendency to be deeply hooked with bait, and that most certainly will lead to problems if the fish is to be released. I feel the same about bait fishing as ice fishing. Catch only what you intend to eat, and then quit. Nothing wrong with that.:smile:

[horshur]

Kris...I have fished alot of barbless lakes over the year and actualy even with kids and we can catch okay..trick with the kids is to paddle like mad when the get a strike to keep the line taught.
And with the kids it isn't so tough to release them yourselves mostly by just flipping the hook out right in the water...don't even let the kid release the fish himself...

but....last year there were a few boats on one lake I fish...being a late spring the water was still cool so I intended to catch my limit of two .....the fishing was pretty good and I watched these fishermen catch and release at least 70 fish..I caught about 5 in total slipping off the smallish ones quikly and ended up keeping two of about a pound each..

the above guys been there all weekend.

who was the greater drain on the resource?

IMO Fish are should not our playthings.....

[Fisher-Dude]

Good points Andy. We have a bit of a problem here on Wood Lake, where the local fishing guide takes his clients out trolling for kokanee. He is bragging it up in an article where his clients catch and release 40 - 50 koks a day. Anyone who has caught koks know they lose scales faster than Surrey girls lose their virginity. We discussed this at our club and with the bios, and I thought maybe a "catch and bonk 2 fish" regulation might be the answer...ie make it illegal to catch and release the koks to reduce handling mortality, as some guys chuck the 3/4 lbers back hoping for a couple of 1.5 lbers.

What do ya think?

[PGK]

This stat must include you as well, we have all seen the pictures. I sure hope you were using barbless hooks, because that is very important for taking hero shot pictures in freezing temperatures. That is very good for a fish, especially when it's bleeding. Oh, btw, Can you cite the scientific paper that this data came from?


lol

Do you even fish? Freezing temps? I don't ice fish when it's much below minus 5. That was well above zero until dark.
I get paid to handle fish. It's my life's work. Fisheries research.
If any you think I'm doing it wrong, go to school for six years and then work field jobs for the same. Then you might be qualified to tell me what I'm doing is wrong.
lol. F8ck me

[PGK]

And the fish's weight is being supported by the ice and the water.

Why am I replying to this?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Good points Andy. We have a bit of a problem here on Wood Lake, where the local fishing guide takes his clients out trolling for kokanee. He is bragging it up in an article where his clients catch and release 40 - 50 koks a day. Anyone who has caught koks know they lose scales faster than Surrey girls lose their virginity. We discussed this at our club and with the bios, and I thought maybe a "catch and bonk 2 fish" regulation might be the answer...ie make it illegal to catch and release the koks to reduce handling mortality, as some guys chuck the 3/4 lbers back hoping for a couple of 1.5 lbers.

What do ya think?

My Dad found the same thing on the big lake when he was targeting rainbows(before they re-opened the kokanee fishery). He caught several BIG kokanee(20-25") on plugs using the downrigger and knew full well that they would die when released.

SSS

[horshur]

Good points Andy. We have a bit of a problem here on Wood Lake, where the local fishing guide takes his clients out trolling for kokanee. He is bragging it up in an article where his clients catch and release 40 - 50 koks a day. Anyone who has caught koks know they lose scales faster than Surrey girls lose their virginity. We discussed this at our club and with the bios, and I thought maybe a "catch and bonk 2 fish" regulation might be the answer...ie make it illegal to catch and release the koks to reduce handling mortality, as some guys chuck the 3/4 lbers back hoping for a couple of 1.5 lbers.

What do ya think?

I think it's fine to release a few fish but nobody thought anyone would be catching and releaseing 40 or 50..I heard a rumor of a local guide catching 100 one day all released...common sense would suggest a little moderation for cripes sake.....if people would follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter excessive legislation wouldn't be needed...

[PGK]

I think it's fine to release a few fish but nobody thought anyone would be catching and releaseing 40 or 50..I heard a rumor of a local guide catching 100 one day all released...common sense would suggest a little moderation for cripes sake.....if people would follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter excessive legislation wouldn't be needed...

Explain to me why C&R'ing 100 fish in a day is a bad thing. By your guy's own numbers, 4.5 of those fish died from hook related mortality? Are you telling me that when I go fishing and I catch a hundred fish a day (which happens on good days) I'm somehow the bad guy? Or are you just angry you're not that good at catching fish? How is it wrong to C&R fish???

I like to fish. I like watching fish, and learning about them. I like tricking them with something I created with my own hand. I like fighting them. I really like photographing them. And I like watching them swim away after a good scrap.

At the end of the day, mortality is mortality. Does it matter to the fish who killed it? It's dead. The harvest goal was accomplished. Chew on that for a while.

[longleader]

I hear you, horshur.

It's kind of ironic to be belittled by some c&r fanatics for killing a few prime fish to eat, yet they can boast of their huge number of fish played and released, even during the heat of the summer when mortality percentage rates are sure to be higher. :sad: I guess these would be your elitists.....

If you fish you have to accept the fact that there will be mortality, intentional or otherwise, no one has total immunity to that fact.The intentional I feel ok about. The odd one that winds up belly up on the bottom after release I feel pretty bad about, because that is waste (not from the scuds' point of view though) and not the intended outcome at all. From those instances we can perhaps learn what went wrong, and lessen the probability of it happening though.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Are you telling me that when I go fishing and I catch a hundred fish a day (which happens on good days)
Haha good one Kris! :razz:

But I agree, catching and releasing 100 fish doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.

[Fisher-Dude]

Explain to me why C&R'ing 100 fish in a day is a bad thing. By your guy's own numbers, 4.5 of those fish died from hook related mortality? Are you telling me that when I go fishing and I catch a hundred fish a day (which happens on good days) I'm somehow the bad guy? Or are you just angry you're not that good at catching fish? How is it wrong to C&R fish???

I like to fish. I like watching fish, and learning about them. I like tricking them with something I created with my own hand. I like fighting them. I really like photographing them. And I like watching them swim away after a good scrap.

At the end of the day, mortality is mortality. Does it matter to the fish who killed it? It's dead. The harvest goal was accomplished. Chew on that for a while.

I guess I could apply Tinney's Theory of C&R to hunting too. I could go shoot 5 grouse and let them rot in the bush, who cares, dead is dead. Or how about I just blow a leg off a deer, knowing I could have killed it if I really wanted to, chances are it will survive for a while. The harvest goal was accomplished. See where this is going Tinney? Do you use the same theory on hunting as you do on fishing? What's really different between a fish rotting in the lake and a grouse rotting in the bush?

[kootenayelkslayer]

You're comparing apples and oranges FD. There's no such thing as catch and release hunting. You need to come up with a better analogy.

[Fisher-Dude]

You're comparing apples and oranges FD. There's no such thing as catch and release hunting. You need to come up with a better analogy.

Not according to Tinney. He says C&R mortality where the 5 fish die and rot achieves the harvest objective, ie killing a limit of trout. That's just like shooting 5 grouse - the harvest ojective (my daily limit) was achieved, and you could keep hunting that day because you didn't have 5 grouse in your possession. He drew the basis for the analogy himself.

[Browningmirage]

lol

Do you even fish? Freezing temps? I don't ice fish when it's much below minus 5. That was well above zero until dark.
I get paid to handle fish. It's my life's work. Fisheries research.
If any you think I'm doing it wrong, go to school for six years and then work field jobs for the same. Then you might be qualified to tell me what I'm doing is wrong.
lol. F8ck me

You know, here is where i would have to disagree with you. My third year working in fisheries, i called a guy out for bad fish handling, he had 35 years of experience, but he was still doing it completely wrong, i had support from both of my immediate bosses, they both said i was correct in calling the guy on it. I have met masters candidates who have no idea what they are doing, i have met people with a Bachelors back home who shouldnt have made it through 8th grade, and i have met fish techs, with nothing but experience who blow seasoned biologists out of the water with their handling abilities.

Personally, i try my damndest to handle fish as good as i can. I take advice, i listen to it when it is appropriate...but i will take the flack when i am doing it wrong, because i want to improve upon myself. Basically all i am trying to say is that no matter how much experience you may have, you still may be doing it wrong. Holding it by the tail will stretch out vertebrae...plain and simple.

Oh...FD, the call it fishing...not catching. If it was catching, wed all string up a gill net. Same as its not called killing, or shooting, but rather hunting. We are all in it for the sport, no matter what anyone says...

[Dirty]

You're comparing apples and oranges FD. There's no such thing as catch and release hunting. You need to come up with a better analogy.

Kootenayelkslayer you are wrong, there is such thing as catch and release hunting. In Africa, you can pay to hunt an animal and tranquilize it. You can then take pictures when it is knocked out. Subsequently the animal is captured and released in another area or park where they want/need the animal for breeding purposes and so on. I am pretty sure that is catch and release hunting.

On a side note, the aforementioned studies about C/R are probably performed in a closed environment under certain fishing techniques and certain parameters. When recreational fishing, there is no guarantee or control on how fish are handler, how fastly they will play out, how long it will take to get "hero shots", and so forth. Furthermore, the time of year affects aquatic invertebrates available for feed, the water temperature, and overall fat reserves of the fish. I say this because the biochemical build ups in muscles after fighting a fish may cause reduced fitness for predation on feed and diminished survival. I will have to find some scientific papers to cite on these matters. Perhaps I can PM Fisher-Dude and get him in on the search. Catch and release fishing could be harder on them than you would think. I think catching and releasing 100 fish in a day is just plain greedy, and is worse than killing your 2 or 4 fish and going home. You have just killed 4.5 fish or more.

[kootenayelkslayer]

On a side note, the aforementioned studies about C/R are probably performed in a closed environment under certain fishing techniques and certain parameters. When recreational fishing, there is no guarantee or control on how fish are handler, how fastly they will play out, how long it will take to get "hero shots", and so forth. Furthermore, the time of year affects aquatic invertebrates available for feed, the water temperature, and overall fat reserves of the fish. I say this because the biochemical build ups in muscles after fighting a fish may cause reduced fitness for predation on feed and diminished survival. I will have to find some scientific papers to cite on these matters. Perhaps I can PM Fisher-Dude and get him in on the search. Catch and release fishing could be harder on them than you would think. I think catching and releasing 100 fish in a day is just plain greedy, and is worse than killing your 2 or 4 fish and going home. You have just killed 4.5 fish or more.

So... to sum it up, you're saying that catch and release is harder on fish than killing them :razz:

[Dirty]

So... to sum it up, you're saying that catch and release is harder on fish than killing them :razz:

It is harder on the entire population if you are catching and releasing 100 fish than if you are killing 2 fish. The previous studies show a 4.5% mortality. Do the math, 4.5% of 100 is 4.5 fish.:wink:

[kootenayelkslayer]

It is harder on the entire population if you are catching and releasing 100 fish than if you are killing 2 fish. The previous studies show a 4.5% mortality. Do the math, 4.5% of 100 is 4.5 fish.:wink:

Ok, I understand your point Dirty, but really, the majority of fisherman don't catch 100 fish in a year, nevermind one day.

[Dirty]

Ok, I understand your point Dirty, but really, the majority of fisherman don't catch 100 fish in a year, nevermind one day.

I know in hindsight I realized that only PgK can catch that many in a day.

[betteroffishing]

thats 4.5 " sea kittens " were talking about and they too have feelings of fear and anxiety. some people catch and release like its the punch line to a joke i see fish getting their barbless hooks yanked out of their bellies . like someone said earlier on here if only people would start respecting the intent of the regulations instead of lawmakers constantly needing to tweak them

[kootenayelkslayer]

I know in hindsight I realized that only PgK can catch that many in a day.

Haha exactly! :razz:

[Glenny]

Seems to me that they're hell bent on making fishing a rich man's sport. Once was a time it was lots of fun and you didn't have to watch over your shoulder, in case you might be doing something wrong. Well.........all I can say is "Dam the rivers - ban the fishing".

And barbless hooks? Next it will be hunting with only blanks in the rifle.

Now I feel better!

Blanks. That's ridiculous man!! Tranquilizer guns and camera.

[goatdancer]

Using barbless hooks will improve your fishing skills by teaching you how to bring them in without losing them. The ones you lose are always 'the huge lunkers' and make for great fish stories. My wife and I fish Pennask Lake every year, fly fish (trolling) with barbless hooks. She had never fished that way up until about 5 years ago and can outfish me now on any given day. In fact, she usually insists on going into there at least twice a year. Not your sunday afternoon drive in the old minivan, that's for sure. We always bring out our limits, and usually release at least twice as many as we keep. The ones that don't make it to the boat are still a lot of fun to catch.

[GoatGuy]

It is harder on the entire population if you are catching and releasing 100 fish than if you are killing 2 fish. The previous studies show a 4.5% mortality. Do the math, 4.5% of 100 is 4.5 fish.:wink:

Steelhead come to mind when you look at it like this, keeping in mind 4.5% is the average. Seems when people who a steelie the world stops, fish is nursed in and 10 minutes of pictures ensue.

I wonder if this is one species that has suffered from C&R?

[Fisher-Dude]

I have to wonder who the arsemunch was who put a stigma on bonking fish. I have 6 dead trout in my sink right now that have a date with the filet knife.

We're supposed to be eating healthier these days, and nothing's better for ya than a trout filet. Those Omega3s are brain food - how can you tell that Tinney lets all his go? :tongue::tongue::tongue:

[Dirty]

Steelhead come to mind when you look at it like this, keeping in mind 4.5% is the average. Seems when people who a steelie the world stops, fish is nursed in and 10 minutes of pictures ensue.

I wonder if this is one species that has suffered from C&R?

I see countless dead Wild Steelhead on the Vedder/Chilliwack system every year. Obviously healthy fish, with no signs of external damages, and no signs of lack of fitness. All the ones I have seen dead are not skinny, obese, or rats. They are dead healthy wild fish.

Oh GG, you forgot to add the making of love to a wild steelhead. I have never seen and confirmed it, but from the amount of time I see people fondling them, I am sure they have snuck in 4-6 pokes, which makes up for being cut off by their significant other for steelhead fishing too much.


I have to wonder who the arsemunch was who put a stigma on bonking fish. I have 6 dead trout in my sink right now that have a date with the filet knife.

We're supposed to be eating healthier these days, and nothing's better for ya than a trout filet. Those Omega3s are brain food - how can you tell that Tinney lets all his go? :tongue::tongue::tongue:

Bahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha

[PGK]

Because I'm allergic to eating them.....that might be the reason.

[Dirty]

Because I'm allergic to eating them.....that might be the reason.

Wanna go for sushi? I'll buy.

[000buck]

Wanna go for sushi? I'll buy.




roflmao really really lmao,

not phunny though i heared again through my local fly fishing association that in fact with out a doubt this will be the regs next years

no bait no barbs very very few exceptions province wide:roll: PS no power bait either too much natural in it therefore it is bait

[horshur]

roflmao really really lmao,

not phunny though i heared again through my local fly fishing association that in fact with out a doubt this will be the regs next years

no bait no barbs very very few exceptions province wide:roll: PS no power bait either too much natural in it therefore it is bait

another goverment innitiative for recruitment and retention eh??

chrono fishing I presume will also be included as it is nothin more than bobber and worm fishing.

[000buck]

chronos are fine as long as they are not real, chrono fly is good

[Fisher-Dude]

not phunny though i heared again through my local fly fishing association that in fact with out a doubt this will be the regs next years


No it won't. FHAC, of which I and several others on this board are members, would have heard about this long ago.

[FlyingHigh]

Ok, I understand your point Dirty, but really, the majority of fisherman don't catch 100 fish in a year, nevermind one day.

10 fishing trips, 10 fish per trip. 100 fish. i average 4 - 5 trout a trip and take about 15 trout trips a year, often more. add in salmon and i'm well over 100 fish a year.

and i don't consider that fishing much. i should start a poll and see how often the "average" fisherman gets out.

from the ones i know, 100 fish in a year is a slow year.

[Dirty]

10 fishing trips, 10 fish per trip. 100 fish. i average 4 - 5 trout a trip and take about 15 trout trips a year, often more. add in salmon and i'm well over 100 fish a year.

and i don't consider that fishing much. i should start a poll and see how often the "average" fisherman gets out.

from the ones i know, 100 fish in a year is a slow year.

You and PGK should go on a date.

[FlyingHigh]

You and PGK should go on a date.

unless PGK is pretty with big tits, forget it.

[Browningmirage]

10 fishing trips, 10 fish per trip. 100 fish. i average 4 - 5 trout a trip and take about 15 trout trips a year, often more. add in salmon and i'm well over 100 fish a year.

and i don't consider that fishing much. i should start a poll and see how often the "average" fisherman gets out.

from the ones i know, 100 fish in a year is a slow year.

i think per species, 100 may be a hard number to hit...and i think that was the point. My very best steelhead year on the island was 20 (all released)...and that was an unreal year for me. My best Spring year (personally) was 10 fish (boat caught more, but thats not my count). As a person in university, i could see cumulative scores being somewhat low, because we dont get that much time out.

Kootenayelkslayers point was that you catch 4-5 fish in a day, which, if you bonked 2 each trip, for your 15 trips, you have killed 30 fish in your year. If a C&R fisherman caught 4-5 fish a day, and went out the same number of times, he would have inadvertently killed a maximum of 3 fish. A C&R fisherman would have to catch 50 fish a day to have the same kill rate as a "food fisherman" in this example.

Out of all the "food fishermen" i know, none will stop fishing when they get their limit, they will simply start catch and releasing fish...especially if they traveled any distance to get to their lake of choice.

Im not saying C&R is the godsend of fisheries management, I am saying that if you think by killing fish you are doing the world a favour, you havent looked at the math.

[Dirty]

unless PGK is pretty with big tits, forget it.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For the second thing, I think opinions very on that.

[Fisher-Dude]

CONFIRMED:

I had a conversation with a Senior Fisheries Biologist today - there is NO province-wide bait ban or barbless hook regulation coming. The R1 - R4 classifications will be happening April 1, and trout limits will be set at 5 for unrestricted lakes (up one fish some regions, down one in others). For the most part, lakes with current restrictions will continue to have similar restrictions under the new regs, and some lakes will have restrictions removed to promote family fishing opportunities.

So, relax, and take a newbie fishing with a BARBED hook and a WORM this summer! :-D

[PGK]

Never has been, never will be. Every time this comes up, it's like the discussion on Liberals taking your guns. Never gonna happen. The vast majority of fishermen are meat fishermen. And they want to hook land and kill fish. The fisheries management emphasis has never been placed on esoteric, intangible values associated with the sport, and never will be.

[princetonbc]

Wow that was a lot to read.
I found a couple of things I wanted to comment on


You've touched on another good point. Active vs inactive angling methods. Whereas it is darn near impossible to throat hook a fish on a fly or actively fished spoon or spinner, it is highly likely that when fishing 'inactively,' the fish will swallow hook + bait and be killed over 80% of the time.
"Inactive" refers to methods that involve bait such as (can I say this?) 'ni**er fishing' IE: weight the bait near the bottom, put bell on tip of road and wait for bell to jingle fishing

Not really true, I use a spinner in our river since we have a bait ban and no barb reg. I have had numerous fish throat hook, it is not great when you its a wild trout and you can't keep it but you know it is done for.


I'll bet greater than 75% of the people on this site have no idea how to handle a fish properly. That's why we need barbless regulations. So joe bloe schmoe doesn't stick his dirty fingers under the operculum of a fish he intends to release.

Barbless barbed whatever. I'm far more concerned with idiots putting fish on rocks for photos, or jamming fingers in the gills, or holding them up by the tail or wearing gloves, or giving them a bear hug or dropping them in the bottom of the boat.

I know this might not be a popular idea but I think there should be some sort of education program for would be anglers. I am tired of watching people stop off the highway who got a fishing licence and a rod and catch fish and just throw them back into the water. We need to take the CORE program to hunt why not have a similar thing for fishing?


“BAIT BAN / BARBLESS PROVINCE WIDE”

...I don’t know if this strategy is going to help their situation or not. I personally can’t see it making too much difference in license numbers. Hunter numbers are declining as well, and it has more to with today’s youth being less interested in these sports than anything else.

The whole issue of “complicated regulations” is over blown anyway, assuming most people have the ability to read, or at least have a friend who can, and are not too lazy. The regs are for the most part pretty straightforward. I admit that it would be a daunting task if one were to intend to fish the whole province in one day, but I think most people fish only one or two waters per day. It doesn’t take long to check and see if those waters are listed, if not, then they come under the regional general regs. Too hard or don’t have time? I don’t think so.


A lot of Youth today just don't have any connection to fishing, hunting or any outdoor life. I work in recreation and I can tell you there is a major disconnect.

I think you are right about the complications of regulations being overblown. Just take a look at Washington States regs.


CONFIRMED:

I had a conversation with a Senior Fisheries Biologist today - there is NO province-wide bait ban or barbless hook regulation coming. The R1 - R4 classifications will be happening April 1, and trout limits will be set at 5 for unrestricted lakes (up one fish some regions, down one in others). For the most part, lakes with current restrictions will continue to have similar restrictions under the new regs, and some lakes will have restrictions removed to promote family fishing opportunities.

So, relax, and take a newbie fishing with a BARBED hook and a WORM this summer! :-D

Good.

As for a bait ban I am not for it. I do a lot of white fish fishing in the spring and I have used bait and I have used flys and you will be there most of the day with the fly where the bait you can fill your quota and in no time. I only fish to eat them, I do not catch and release unless they are not legal size. I was perch fishing on the weekend and I think I would still be there if I was using a lure we never caught anything without bait.

Barbed hooks, we have a ban on them on our river I hate when fishing white fish but at the same time I understand the idea behind it. If I wasn't fishing to eat them I guess I wouldn't really care but since I am I hate to loose so many of them.

One last thing if you think about it a bait ban and ban on barbed hooks would be impossible to police. We do not have enough COs now how would they police a massive new regulation?

[000buck]

One last thing if you think about it a bait ban and ban on barbed hooks would be impossible to police. We do not have enough COs now how would they police a massive new regulation?




Fear, like any other regulation, be afraid our gov't will get you, they'll take your car, boat, house, gear and money lots of money. BE AFRAID OF THE GOVERNMENT or play by their rules.