East Kootenay Assiniboine Sheep LEH

[BCrams]

There was an interesting point brought up by 6616 regarding access restrictions which limit resident hunters from perhaps reaching sheep areas.

By and large, most just require a little incentive and footwork to access remote areas.......

However, lets talk about a "real" access issue for resident hunters for sheep. With LEH as a hinderance already -- the 'successful' permit holders pretty much have their hands tied as far accessing the area for sheep.

Anyone care to take stab at the issues regarding Assiniboine?

How many of you have put in for the draw not really knowing where to go and what to expect?

[budismyhorse]

It is supposedly a long haul. Likely only do-able for the horse hunter.

A friend of mine was drawn years ago and made two seperate trips to try and get in. Both times he didn't make it happen. The first was ruined by a bike problem and the second, was by bears trying to eat him at night. He was solo on the second and decided, after two nights of battling off bears throughout the night it wasn't meant to be and he never even got into the sheep country. this all happened on the way in!

From what he told me: 30 km bike ride, then you are hiking from there since you are at the park boundary now......however, since then he says he learned of better ways to get in.

So in short, he put in, as I have, with no idea of what to expect or where to go.....

[6616]

Assiniboine has definitely been a huge thorn in the side of hunters for years now.

The allocation is unfair with an equal number of sheep opportunties for non-residents and residents. Access is a huge issue, as are Park use permits for horses, camping, and general park policies regarding hunting.

The Regional Advisory committee has been working unsuccessfully on these issues for a long time, but recently some headway has been made. MOE has agreed (tentatively) to move the Cross river VHAC further back to make access easier. As well they have agreed to increase resident authorizations from 2 to 4 tags (still dependent on Parks agreement).

These will not cure all the problems but hopefully they will help. Assinibilne is not a place to apply for a LEH without a lot of pre-planning and preparation effort. If one does his homework and plans correctly, there are some mighty good rams to be had back in there. A friend of mine shot a 186 ram several years back.

[BCrams]

It is supposedly a long haul. Likely only do-able for the horse hunter.

Thats an understatement lol.

From what he told me: 30 km bike ride, then you are hiking from there since you are at the park boundary now......however, since then he says he learned of better ways to get in.

For hunting - only 1 way in / out allowed as per park regulations :shock:

So in short, he put in, as I have, with no idea of what to expect or where to go.....

Neither do most other people.



I also think the outfitter with his two tags should also only be allowed to hunt 1 sheep per hunt dates as BC residents with only 1 permit per hunt date.

Sheep are only in 1 spot.

[Kody94]

I don't know much about the place either. About as much as bud above, and that it can apparently be a real hassle getting permits to take horses into the park.

I put in for it every year pretty much regardless...figured I'd cross that bridge if I ever got to it.

I am curious what the original intent of the access closure is...presumably more than just making it tough on the LEH sheep winners.

[BCrams]

[quote=6616;393009]Assiniboine has definitely been a huge thorn in the side of hunters for years now.

No kidding. If more resident hunters who have been putting in "realize" really what is involved with this hunt and all the red tape regarding park access restrictions etc ...... there would be a big stink.

Hence this thread to make more people aware. :smile: Its only fair.

The allocation is unfair with an equal number of sheep opportunties for non-residents and residents. Access is a huge issue, as are Park use permits for horses, camping, and general park policies regarding hunting.

Red tape, big time. to bypass it all they make you take a big detour halfway around the park etc ..... providing one knows where to even begin looking for sheep.

The Regional Advisory committee has been working unsuccessfully on these issues for a long time, but recently some headway has been made. MOE has agreed (tentatively) to move the Cross river VHAC further back to make access easier. As well they have agreed to increase resident authorizations from 2 to 4 tags (still dependent on Parks agreement).

Not only should it increase to 4, but also the outfitter should be limited with his 2 tags as mentioned. He shouldn't be able to take 2 rams on one trip while the 2 tags available for residents are split between two hunt dates .... the first being pretty much futile anyways and the dude with the 2nd tag is competing with the outfitter with 2 tags available.

These will not cure all the problems but hopefully they will help. Assinibilne is not a place to apply for a LEH without a lot of pre-planning and preparation effort. If one does his homework and plans correctly, there are some mighty good rams to be had back in there. A friend of mine shot a 186 ram several years back.

Good on him. With LEH and steep odds, this is one area I believe every single resident hunter who gets the draw should know exactly how to get there and where the rams are and when they're there.

[6616]

I don't know much about the place either. About as much as bud above, and that it can apparently be a real hassle getting permits to take horses into the park.

I put in for it every year pretty much regardless...figured I'd cross that bridge if I ever got to it.

I am curious what the original intent of the access closure is...presumably more than just making it tough on the LEH sheep winners.

As far as we've been able to determine the original VHAC was put in place during a time when elk populations were a serious conservation concern. There are several migration routes that cross the main FSR where an overharvest of elk was a concern. With elk numbers as they are today this should no longer be a concern.

It's hard to say whether BC Parks had any influence over the creation of that VHAC. They really push hard for access management around all park access points in BC so it is very likely.

I don't think that sheep harvest in particular was a driver in this VHAC being created, but it certainly has been a major force to be overcome by prospective sheep hunters.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

As far as we've been able to determine the original VHAC was put in place during a time when elk populations were a serious conservation concern. There are several migration routes that cross the main FSR where an overharvest of elk was a concern. With elk numbers as they are today this should no longer be a concern.

It's hard to say whether BC Parks had any influence over the creation of that VHAC. They really push hard for access management around all park access points in BC so it is very likely.

I don't think that sheep harvest in particular was a driver in this VHAC being created, but it certainly has been a major force to be overcome by prospective sheep hunters.

Andy-Who was the Reg. Bio at the time when these restrictions were first implemented???

SSS

[BCrams]

I don't know much about the place either. About as much as bud above, and that it can apparently be a real hassle getting permits to take horses into the park.

I put in for it every year pretty much regardless...figured I'd cross that bridge if I ever got to it.

I am curious what the original intent of the access closure is...presumably more than just making it tough on the LEH sheep winners.

Heh heh .... 8-)

Its bs!!! Thats what it is.

[6616]

Andy-Who was the Reg. Bio at the time when these restrictions were first implemented???

SSS

I believe our old friend RD.

[6616]

Heh heh .... 8-)

Its bs!!! Thats what it is.

Pure and simple....!

[PGK]

I believe our old friend RD.

lol

Poor guy. He's always gettin shit on :lol:

[Sawbuck]

There are many areas with difficult access with or without LEH. Do your homework before putting in for draws - many areas simply cannot be accessed by backpacking from the truck. Boats, planes, and horses are part of the deal or somtimes even a combination of these methods is required. Sheep seldom come easy.

[BCrams]

There are many areas with difficult access with or without LEH. Do your homework before putting in for draws - many areas simply cannot be accessed by backpacking from the truck. Boats, planes, and horses are part of the deal or somtimes even a combination of these methods is required. Sheep seldom come easy.

Very true. However, a draw as such with 80:1 odds with access restrictions etc making it almost even worse - I believe this is an area where successful draw winners should be handed a map on how to get there and where to hunt those rams.

There will never be any conservation concern ever with just 2 tags offered and the early draw hunt is useless if there are no rams to hunt :| ....

Its one thing to reveal a GOS area because anyone and many people will have the means to access the area's etc. I'm pretty much the last person to talk to regarding GOS sheep. But entirely a different issue with the Assiniboine tags.

[6616]

lol

Poor guy. He's always gettin shit on :lol:

Yes he is and it's seldom for things he actually did on his own. At the time this VHAC was probably a good idea, but times have changed, there's no longer any conservation concern for elk, and there never was any for sheep, so lifting it would probably be a good idea at this time. The only strong oposition is from the outfitter in the lower valley.

[6616]

There are many areas with difficult access with or without LEH. Do your homework before putting in for draws - many areas simply cannot be accessed by backpacking from the truck. Boats, planes, and horses are part of the deal or somtimes even a combination of these methods is required. Sheep seldom come easy.

The big issue in Assiniboine, Spatzizi, and several other parks is that by government policy BC Parks has to allow hunting, but they do not like it at all, as a matter of fact they hate it, and they continually create many roadblocks to ensure that hunting harvest and access is difficult to impossible.

[budismyhorse]

The big issue in Assiniboine, Spatzizi, and several other parks is that by government policy BC Parks has to allow hunting, but they do not like it at all, as a matter of fact they hate it, and they continually create many roadblocks to ensure that hunting harvest and access is difficult to impossible.


Andy's quote is whats known as "the meat of the issue".

Parks are Parks are Parks. The Alberta Parks have been known to fly helicopters around bands of sheep to keep them from wandering into hunting areas.

I heard that a little while ago, looked into it, and couldn't believe how many guys in the Elk Valley have seen it happen.

They seem like they will be really sympathetic to our plight..:shock:

[PGK]

The big issue in Assiniboine, Spatzizi, and several other parks is that by government policy BC Parks has to allow hunting, but they do not like it at all, as a matter of fact they hate it, and they continually create many roadblocks to ensure that hunting harvest and access is difficult to impossible.

Funny, the vast majority of BC Park Rangers and employees I know are hunters or at the bare minimum, educated about hunting or in a couple cases, married to hunters.

[Kody94]

The Alberta Parks have been known to fly helicopters around bands of sheep to keep them from wandering into hunting areas.

I heard that a little while ago, looked into it, and couldn't believe how many guys in the Elk Valley have seen it happen.


I thought the helicopters were to chase the BC guys out of the park. ;) :D

[Kody94]

Funny, the vast majority of BC Park Rangers and employees I know are hunters or at the bare minimum, educated about hunting or in a couple cases, married to hunters.

The ones that I know are too. Unfortunately I never bump into any of them in the parks...just the ones that clearly have an anti-hunting bent.

[bayou]

Outfitter didnt take any rams this year the resident did. I know of a few different tag holders in the past. My understanding is its a fairly small group of sheep that inhabit the area and weather plays a important role on them being there, and yes the early tag is usally not that great.

[BCrams]

Outfitter didnt take any rams this year the resident did.

Very surprising as the outfitter usually goes 2 for 2 on sheep the last week of the season!

[bayou]

Very surprising as the outfitter usually goes 2 for 2 on sheep the last week of the season!
No not always and they may not always be as large as some may think coming from such a hard to get to area, but with your inside information Im sure you will be fine.

[gbear]

Yah, it's a difficult hunt from what I understand. I know 2 guys that have had the draw over the years. One guy had it about 10 years ago, and another friend had it this past season. Both were successful, and both worked hard at making it that way.

[BCrams]

Bayou .... you have some pretty big ideas to restrict sheep hunters as you posted in a thread below:



bayou posted:

Some of mine would be if stones went on a one in 5 or 10 year system and bighorn (region 4) went on the same or LEH or even one in lifetime.
Just wondering what some other thoughts may be.

[reddog888]

What would be the point of this type of restriction? Are the #s really that low?

[Jigger]

[quote=BCrams;393041]Very true. However, a draw as such with 80:1 odds with access restrictions etc making it almost even worse - I believe this is an area where successful draw winners should be handed a map on how to get there and where to hunt those rams.

BC Rams,

Handed a map.......Is this how you hunt?: rumour has it that you either poach hunting information off of fellow hunter maps or use your old MOE connections to improve your odds and harvest opportunities for your future hunts. Talk to you soon Greg. By the way, the only reason you know anything about the Assiniboine is because you tried pumping that information out of Andy. If it weren't for the limited info he provided you, you wouldn't know F'all!

Jigger

[bayou]

Bayou .... you have some pretty big ideas to restrict sheep hunters as you posted in a thread below:
Not trying to restrict sheep hunters at all, sheep killers sure rather see others have a chance.

[BCrams]

[quote=Jigger;393301][quote=BCrams;393041]Very true. However, a draw as such with 80:1 odds with access restrictions etc making it almost even worse - I believe this is an area where successful draw winners should be handed a map on how to get there and where to hunt those rams.

BC Rams,

Handed a map.......Is this how you hunt?: rumour has it that you either poach hunting information off of fellow hunter maps

2nd time I've heard this. The only time I can recal this was when visiting an outfitter for coffee and he had a map layed on the table - anyone would have a hard time not having a photographic memory at that point......To this date, I still havn't used any of that info for personal gain. I find it disapointing to say the least there's such a rumour out there ....

or use your old MOE connections to improve your odds and harvest opportunities for your future hunts.

I learned a lot from one fellow yes. 9 years ago .... gave a couple suggestions to get started as far as sheep biology goes as I was green as you could get ....no better than the stuff you get ...talked to him no more than one day when I met him...... never hunted any of the couple places suggested .....

Nor is there any current or ex MOE person who shares information with me......if you have this info to substantiate this rumour with names, please do post up for everyone to see!!

That said, everyone invariably learns from someone and by doing themselves.

I am sure you've been given an X and went to such spots without much work on your part though ;-)

Talk to you soon Greg.

Shrug - lots of guys on here already know me by first name.

By the way, the only reason you know anything about the Assiniboine is because you tried pumping that information out of Andy. If it weren't for the limited info he provided you, you wouldn't know F'all!

You're wrong. My wife was there (dinner) and we both were looking at the pictures together and I can certainly say she'll know I wasn't pumping for information (as his wife I am sure would know too)...... sure he said its a very long ride into the area and its along the border when I asked if they were Alberta rams coming into BC .........a simple question anyone might ask ...... I should also add, my wife hiked from Sunshine Meadows all along "Quartz Ridge" and saw rams all over on the BC side on her way to Assiniboine.......and then hiked out on the Simpson Trail back to Kootenay National Park ........LONG before Andy ever guided in there. I knew thats where they were ......based on her hike.

The discussions over LEH and access issues simply reminded me of the "Parks Plan" that came out and how I think its ridiculous thats all. Why not help future tag holders be successful??

Besides that - Andy didn't give any information ......

If any hunter wants, they just need to look in the "Assiniboine Parks Plan Draft" 2005. Its on the Parks site ...... the real source of information!!! If you don't believe me....read it. I knew how valuable these parks plans were way back when I worked for parks out of Stone Mtn, Muncho Lake, Tetsa and Gataga / Kechika backcountry in 2001. Now you maybe have an idea that by keeping in touch with such park plans across the board, how good such information is.

The darned thing quotes the outfitter himself about hunting sheep 'late season' ...... quotes him 'hunts only late in the season' ...... the report further gives the outfitter's cabin location...... and the report further says the rams 'gather' on the south facing slopes of Quartz Ridge inside the BC border .......furthermore it gives the rough population of those sheep at 50-80 annually.

None of that came from Andy like you imply ....

[6616]

[quote=Jigger;393301][quote=BCrams;393041]
NONE came from Andy like you imply ....

Can't imagine you're talking about this Andy Jigger, must be some one else you're referring to, because I certainly don't know enough about Assiniboine to be of any help to anyone.

Andy

[BCRiverBoater]

I know nothing of this area or this band of sheep. Also know none of the people posting on here.

This started with a fun, innocent talk. Then some jealous guy came on here and hijacked the thread. No real information was passed on here until some individuals posted. It is 80:1 so over anyones life they would be lucky to get drawn. We should all be on here trying to get EVERY SINGLE RESIDENT WHO IS DRAWN A NICE RAM. That is what BC residents want. Those other selfish BC residents who would rather a G/O get the ram for a non-resident are people who we do not need in our fraternity.

The way I see this thread as an outsider looking in is one person is jealous of anothers gain. Many people posted with positive results and then one odd duck piped in.

I live in Stone country and our area gets pounded by everyone in the province. And guess what? It is their right as a BC resident. Come up and see our magnificent country and shoot a big animal. I applaud all those who have. But I would never say you do not have the right to come here. I would not say shame on you those are our animals. Because they are not. They or our provinces animals and all BC residents deserve the right to hunt them and any one with morals would aid a local to shoot one. Get over the fact that you as a person will not shoot every and all trophy's in the province.

[bayou]

I know nothing of this area or this band of sheep. Also know none of the people posting on here.

This started with a fun, innocent talk. Then some jealous guy came on here and hijacked the thread. No real information was passed on here until some individuals posted. It is 80:1 so over anyones life they would be lucky to get drawn. We should all be on here trying to get EVERY SINGLE RESIDENT WHO IS DRAWN A NICE RAM. That is what BC residents want. Those other selfish BC residents who would rather a G/O get the ram for a non-resident are people who we do not need in our fraternity.

The way I see this thread as an outsider looking in is one person is jealous of anothers gain. Many people posted with positive results and then one odd duck piped in.

I live in Stone country and our area gets pounded by everyone in the province. And guess what? It is their right as a BC resident. Come up and see our magnificent country and shoot a big animal. I applaud all those who have. But I would never say you do not have the right to come here. I would not say shame on you those are our animals. Because they are not. They or our provinces animals and all BC residents deserve the right to hunt them and any one with morals would aid a local to shoot one. Get over the fact that you as a person will not shoot every and all trophy's in the province.
Im not sure if your directing this at jiggers comments but not sure if you fully understand his thread, I see some of it abit different anyway.
But please post the list of all the hot stone areas to aid the locals out.

[BiG Boar]

I find it funny how sensitive people are about other people even wanting to hunt thier animals. Harden up! By being a BC resident you are allowed to hunt "other peoples" animals also.

[blackbart]

Very interesting read on a very difficult hunt to either get drawn or get into the sheep area.

Some of the dialogue between members is downright funny! I wonder if any of the members engaged in abuse towards each other have ever offered to trade trophy mule deer information for sheep information? Mule deer information that was obtained from another forum member (one that is currently banned) to be more accurate. It is one thing to be invited into a hunting camp, yet another thing to try and trade that information for one's own gain! Kinda wonder if this type of behaviour were to be more widely known if the same invite would be presented?

Best o' luck to all those applying for the Assinibone hunt next year. I wonder if the late season odds will be a little higher than normal next year?

How much longer till August 1st?

[Jigger]

Everyone,

I PM'd this to BCrams but I think everyone should see it. I am sorry for wrecking a good thread, just got alittle stirred up..


BCrams,

I wanted to appoligize, I was alittle harsh to you, I should have PM'd you. From now on I'll PM you if I have any issue. I agree with most of what you are saying, the part with respect to giving hunters maps of the area and where the sheep are located got me stirred up. I beleave it is part of the hunt to do the research yourself. I will drop this issue, if you want to post my reply please feel free.

Jigger

[GoatGuy]

Outfitter didnt take any rams this year the resident did. I know of a few different tag holders in the past. My understanding is its a fairly small group of sheep that inhabit the area and weather plays a important role on them being there, and yes the early tag is usally not that great.

This is surprising, certainly not the norm.

Residents have taken what 2 legal rams in the last 10 years? 3 counting this year on odds that push 80:1.

Mr.Cooper used to fill his quota every year and I think this is a first for John, if what you say is true. Usually he does go 2 for 2. And yes, they usually shoot pretty good rams.


This is a tough hunt; you need horses and you need to plan for terrible weather. Wouldn't catch me on a mountain bike in that country at the end of October. The first hunt is pretty much a waste. BC Parks have been giving resident hunters the short end of the stick on this one for quite some time like a lot of other hunts.

My guess is the road closure start point will change next year; the outfitter is on board with it. The current road closure is nothing more than a pain in the butt as sheep are on LEH and there really isn't a whole lot for other game in that country.

[bayou]

[quote=GoatGuy;393848]This is surprising, certainly not the norm.

Residents have taken what 2 legal rams in the last 10 years? 3 counting this year on odds that push 80:1.

What do the odds have to do with it just because there 80:1 doesnt mean its a sure thing.


Mr.Cooper used to fill his quota every year and I think this is a first for John, if what you say is true. Usually he does go 2 for 2. And yes, they usually shoot pretty good rams.


Im not sure but dont think he filled his quota every year and there was someone else that ran the area inbetween the 2 of them, but sounds like you know them pretty well so you should know the answer to that.

This is a tough hunt; you need horses and you need to plan for terrible weather. Wouldn't catch me on a mountain bike in that country at the end of October. The first hunt is pretty much a waste. BC Parks have been giving resident hunters the short end of the stick on this one for quite some time like a lot of other hunts.

Yes could be a tough hunt, but have riding mountain bikes up there in Nov and wasnt that bad.


My guess is the road closure start point will change next year; the outfitter is on board with it. The current road closure is nothing more than a pain in the butt as sheep are on LEH and there really isn't a whole lot for other game in that country

Yes the road closure makes it a bit more difficult and if opened up I feel it should be for the access in to the assinaboine area for sheep only. Leave it where it is for other species. Makes it to easy to access goat areas if moved. Personally think they should just allow access up through the simpson as in the past.
I could be wrong but think the outfitter was granted permission once to drive up the road closure.

[BCrams]

bayou posted:

Personally think they should just allow access up through the simpson as in the past.

I could be wrong but think the outfitter was granted permission once to drive up the road closure.


This is the best and easiest route for hunters to hunt sheep. There are a couple intangibles:

Red Tape #1: BC Parks has stated the following (in blue):


PLEASE NOTE: The entire core area is closed to hunting and possession of firearms. Please consult the hunting regulations. Access with firearms into the park for the purpose of hunting is allowed through the Mitchell River Drainage. Kootenay and Banff National Parks are closed to the possession of firearms. Any wildlife harvested in the park must be transported out via the Mitchell River Trail.

Now this is where it gets ridiculous because the Mitchell River Drainage Trail description is as follows (2008):

Mitchell River Trail

Rating: DIFFICULT

Trail switches back and forth across the Mitchell River. The trail is primarily used by horse users. The trail is not maintained, is quite overgrown and may be difficult to follow in some places. Route finding skills are required. During times of high water this trail may be


impassable.

To get to where the sheep are, easily over ~40km.

Now lets compare this to the Simpson Trail


Simpson River Trail

Rating: EASY

Through Kootenay National Park there is the hazard of falling trees and there may be trees down on the trail. The trail


is well defined and easy to follow the whole way. Larches
are peeking around the end of September.

To get to where you can start hunting sheep ~20km. A fit backpack hunter can get there in a day on this trail.

Now the Simpson River Trail is within a National Park. Surely the questions arise over the transport of firearms / wildlife. If BC Parks would 'remove' the requirement hunters must use the Mitchell River drainage......the only thing a hunter needs to do is get a permit to 'carry a firearm for use outside the park'.........now how easy is it to get this permit remains the question?


As per National Parks Wildlife Regulations http://www.pc.gc.ca/docs/bib-lib/pdfs/regs/npwr_e.pdf



Yes, you can transport wildlife through the park based on the following (in blue):



(4) A person may, in any park other than a park referred to in paragraph (1)(b), have in the person’s possession any wildlife if


(a) subject to subsection (5), the person in possession of the wildlife produces, on the request of a park warden or other park officer,

(i) an export permit as issued pursuant to the Game Export Act,

(ii) a hunting licence or permit or a trapping licence or permit issued by the province in which the wildlife was procured,
(iii) a hunting tag issued by the province in which the wildlife was procured and the tag is properly placed on the wildlife as required by the laws of that province, or
(iv) where the wildlife has been obtained as a gift, a valid licence or permit issued by the province in which the wildlife was procured permitting a person to give such wildlife to another person or a statement signed by the donor of the gift that includes the date of the gift, the type and number of wildlife, the name of the person receiving the gift and the licence or permit number under which the wildlife was procured; and

(b) subject to subsection (5), the person is in possession of the wildlife in the park for the purpose of

(i) storing it at a permanent residence in the park,

(ii) transporting it directly on a through highway to a permanent residence within the park,

(iii) transporting it directly through the park to private property outside the park on a road that is the sole means of access to that property, or







Regarding Firearms Transport:


20.

(1) No person shall be in possession of a firearm in a park unless the firearm is not loaded and is transported in a case or is wrapped and tied securely in such a manner that no part of the firearm is exposed.

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to

(a) a person in Mingan Archipelago National Park Reserve who is hunting pursuant to a hunting permit
issued under subsection 13.1(1); or

(b) a bonded armoured car service guard who is carrying out assigned duties in the park.

(3) No person shall
(a) have a loaded firearm in or on a vehicle, vessel or aircraft; or
(b) discharge a firearm from a vehicle, vessel or aircraft.

(4) The superintendent may issue a permit authorizing a person to carry a firearm or trap where the firearm or trap is to be carried through the park for use outside the park. (in this case, Assiniboine)

(5) No person shall carry a firearm or trap outside a vehicle, vessel or aircraft unless
(a) that person
(i) has a permit from the superintendent authorizing the carrying of a firearm or trap, whichever is
applicable, and
(ii) complies with these Regulations; or
(b) the firearm or trap is being carried directly
(i) from a vehicle, vessel or aircraft to that person’s premises, or
(ii) to a vehicle, vessel or aircraft from that person’s premises.


Two Barriers:

1 - BC Parks requirement to utilize the Mitchell Drainage in and out.

2 - How easy is it to get the firearms permit to carry through the park??? (8.8 km worth of National Park into Assiniboine)

Now further reading into all this........ Lets suppose BC Parks lifted the restrictions on the Mitchell Drainage as the only route for hunting ..... effectivly allowing hunters to utilize the Simpson River Trail providing a permit can be issued to carry a firearm.......

There may / may not be a conflict of interest......you see, Mr Albert Cooper is no longer the outfitter......but a fellow named John Niddrie as named in the Parks Plan. A quick google of John Niddrie and ..... he's a National Park Warden and whether he still is or not, I don't know :cool:

I do not know him but given the few wardens I have met, I am sure he is a great individual.

Another chapter in all the politics / logistics over basically 1 permit in an 80:1 odds area.

[GoatGuy]

What do the odds have to do with it just because there 80:1 doesnt mean its a sure thing.

It means there are people who want to go on this hunt. Some of whom are being drawn have no idea what they're getting themselves into so either: a) publish the facts of the hunt or
b) put out some LEH authorizations

I prefer b - it's the easiest from a time perspective.

Currently parks doesn't want more than one hunter in the campground. For some reason, I would have thought, being parks people, they'd want as many folks as possible enjoying them.




Im not sure but dont think he filled his quota every year and there was someone else that ran the area inbetween the 2 of them, but sounds like you know them pretty well so you should know the answer to that.

I'm fairly well versed in the numbers. Some people are better hunters than others.




Yes could be a tough hunt, but have riding mountain bikes up there in Nov and wasnt that bad..

As long as it doesn't snow...................




Yes the road closure makes it a bit more difficult and if opened up I feel it should be for the access in to the assinaboine area for sheep only. Leave it where it is for other species. Makes it to easy to access goat areas if moved. Personally think they should just allow access up through the simpson as in the past.

Goats? They're on LEH. Why do you need road closures if you have LEH?




I could be wrong but think the outfitter was granted permission once to drive up the road closure.

Yes, commercial permits, happens regularly. Best saved for another thread.

[BCrams]

It means there are people who want to go on this hunt. Some of whom are being drawn have no idea what they're getting themselves into so either: a) publish the facts of the hunt or
b) put out some LEH authorizations

I prefer b - it's the easiest from a time perspective.

A little devils advocate here.

How many LEH authorizations would it take to achieve harvest goals or even based on the provincial allocation policy? Is it realistic Parks will allow an increase as such?

In the US, LEH sheep hunts on a comparable scale such as this one, are very proactive to ensure the hunter has the best optimal opportunity to harvest a ram in the form of a 1/2 day sheep clinic, maps of the area highlighting the sheep population and where they typically can be found etc.

Would you not agree this would be a great way (still not guaranteed hunt due to 'effort' still required, weather conditions etc.) to increase the sheep hunting experience in such an area which is under LEH? Is it the goal to have residents only harvest 1 or 2 sheep every 8-10 yrs?

So in effect, why not a little of both a and b?



..............

[Kody94]

Goats? They're on LEH. Why do you need road closures if you have LEH?


Also devil's advocate here.....there is a balance point. Removing access closures MAY require significant reductions in LEH numbers to accomodate higher success rates. Each sub-unit is different in this regard. Depending on the degree to which a particular one is under-subscribed or under-utilized, it could be a big deal.

[bayou]

Do they publish facts on any other LEH hunts? As stated earlier people should do some research not just blindly put in for an area because of odds.
Like I said in the other thread( since 2 where started) people are going in there and hunting just not shooting and some of them knew where to go for they have guided in there in the past. I know of some that had the LEH as well and didnt go but that happens with all LEHs and over the counter tags as well.
Just because its a draw area doesnt mean its a given you will get a ram and if its all about size your worried about the elk valley in GOS has probably produced more consistantly larger rams.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Also devil's advocate here.....there is a balance point. Removing access closures MAY require significant reductions in LEH numbers to accomodate higher success rates. Each sub-unit is different in this regard. Depending on the degree to which a particular one is under-subscribed or under-utilized, it could be a big deal.

Which leads to the questions...."What are the participation and success rates of LEH goat hunts in the area??""

SSS

[GoatGuy]

A little devils advocate here.

How many LEH authorizations would it take to achieve harvest goals or even based on the provincial allocation policy? Is it realistic Parks will allow an increase as such?

In the US, LEH sheep hunts on a comparable scale such as this one, are very proactive to ensure the hunter has the best optimal opportunity to harvest a ram in the form of a 1/2 day sheep clinic, maps of the area highlighting the sheep population and where they typically can be found etc.

Would you not agree this would be a great way (still not guaranteed hunt due to 'effort' still required, weather conditions etc.) to increase the sheep hunting experience in such an area which is under LEH? Is it the goal to have residents only harvest 1 or 2 sheep every 8-10 yrs?

So in effect, why not a little of both a and b?
..............


Takes time and costs money.

Letting out more authorizations doesn't take either.

With probably 2-3 authorizations in the last 10 days you'll end up with your average of 1 ram harvested per year over a 10 year period. Some years there will be two, some there will be none.

Parks needs to be dealt with as well.


EDITED

[GoatGuy]

Also devil's advocate here.....there is a balance point. Removing access closures MAY require significant reductions in LEH numbers to accomodate higher success rates. Each sub-unit is different in this regard. Depending on the degree to which a particular one is under-subscribed or under-utilized, it could be a big deal.

Ok......Mr.Advocate :razz:

My thought process...

1) Look at the odds across region 4 for goats. What do they currently average? Around 2:1? Can't remember, 6616 should have this at his finger tips. My guess is probably pretty close.

2) Now, consider the fact that residents are only shooting about ~60% of the goats they should be. Yes, only 60% - it's crazy, I know.

3) To me this means there's room for a WAY more LEH authorizations, a lot less access restrictions and some more GOS.

Across Region 4 you'll probably find that if the correct number of authorizations were released for the current AAH the average odds would be less than 1:1.

Besides, it's extremely easy to adjust the LEH numbers from year to year - that's the point. Otherwise it would be GOS (well in a perfect world). :razz:

[BCrams]

Takes time and costs money.

Thats sad because it will take time and money to implement a lot of those recommendations in the "Strategy for Resident Hunter Recruitment and Retention in BC"

All about prioritizing.

Letting out more authorizations doesn't take either.

True!

With probably 2-3 authorizations in the last 10 days you'll end up with your average of 1 ram harvested over a 10 year period. Some years there will be two, some there will be none.

A 1 ram average in a 10 yr period? Thats the goal?

Parks needs to be dealt with as well.
.............

[Kody94]

My thought process...

1) Look at the odds across region 4 for goats. What do they currently average? Around 2:1? Can't remember, 6616 should have this at his finger tips. My guess is probably pretty close.

2) Now, consider the fact that residents are only shooting about ~60% of the goats they should be. Yes, only 60% - it's crazy, I know.

3) To me this means there's room for a WAY more LEH authorizations, a lot less access restrictions and some more GOS.

Across Region 4 you'll probably find that if the correct number of authorizations were released for the current AAH the average odds would be less than 1:1.

Besides, it's extremely easy to adjust the LEH numbers from year to year - that's the point. Otherwise it would be GOS (well in a perfect world). :razz:

My thought process is basically the same.

Just making the point that the right solution for any particular management unit may not work for another. And that just because its LEH doesn't mean that access restrictions are not required.

Just as an example, removing access restrictions in some sub-units could result in near 100% success rates, which would reduce the number of authorizations 10 fold, which would decrease hunter opportunity significantly.

And of course, access restrictions aren't always about goats, or sheep. :)

To increase goat harvest levels nearer to AAH, a combination of increased permits, less access restrictions where its compatible with the overall goat, wildlife and recreation strategies, and GOS where conservation is not compromised are all good in my books.

[6616]

4-25F Mount Assiniboine: (from MOE LEH spread sheet)

Population estomate is 80, harvest level is .025, thus AAH or desired harvest = 2 (per annum)

Of the AAH of 2 rams, 1 is allocated to non-residents, 1 is allocated to residents
(I know that's not fair or in compliance with the allocation policy but that's another discussion, this will change in 2012, the regional allocation is 67/33).

To achieve the above allocations the non-resident quota is 2, and the number of resident LEH authorizations has been 2 (this is going up to 4 for 2009).

Since 2003 two rams have been harvested by residents. Resident success rate is thus 20% for this 5 year period based on 10 permits. If a longer period were examined the resident success rate would be lower. If there were 3 rams harvested in the last ten years the 10 year success rate would be 15% for 20 permits.

To actually utilize the one ram allocation that residents have would thus require 7 permits if the success rate of 15% was used, or 5 if the success rate of 20% was used.

I do not have the totals for non-resident harvest, but the non-resident allocation is only 1 ram per year or 5 rams during an allocation period. The quota may be 2 at the beginning of an allocation period but would decrease as the 5 year quota is used up if more then 1 ram per year is harvested. The total non-resident harvest for a five year allocation period cannot exceed 5 rams.

The reason why the resident hunt is split into two periods is because BC Parks only wants one party of sheep hunters at a time in the campground due to the high impact of horses.

[6616]

Which leads to the questions...."What are the participation and success rates of LEH goat hunts in the area??""

SSS

No goat harvests at all in the north part of 4-25 during the last three years despite a lot of permits being issued. In Region 4 on average about 25% of the permit holders actually buy a tag and participate, I would guess the particpation rate for this area is even less then the average considering the access issues.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

No goat harvests at all in the north part of 4-25 during the last three years despite a lot of permits being issued. In Region 4 on average about 25% of the permit holders actually buy a tag and participate, I would guess the particpation rate for this area is even less then the average considering the access issues.

bingo............................................. .

SSS

[bayou]

Thats the trouble with you guys you only print #s you want to fool people
so no goats are coming outa 4-25 D,C orE and if this is the case then there should maybe not be a season there at all for the #s are to low.
Animals arnt being shot in a leh area so raise the quota and if you kill to many lower it the next year seems kinda dumb in my mind. Thought some of you were the big hard core sheep hunters that hiked over 100kms in a trip but now you want it made easier, if its to tough for you and you dont want to experience that type of hunt dont apply and leave it to those that want to. Its about the experience and hunt to some.

[riflebuilder]

I had a goat draw in 4-25 this year and it was a b..ch for access to where the goats are. I di see lots of goats in 4-24 when glassing sheep. Saw 5 legal rams this year just unable to conect on any of them...bad knees and they were in an ugly spot. The first Ram got back into the park before we got to him, the goats are there but there is way better places to try for one than 4-25. Unless you are hunting sheep too.

[GoatGuy]

Thats the trouble with you guys you only print #s you want to fool people
so no goats are coming outa 4-25 D,C orE and if this is the case then there should maybe not be a season there at all for the #s are to low.
Animals arnt being shot in a leh area so raise the quota and if you kill to many lower it the next year seems kinda dumb in my mind. Thought some of you were the big hard core sheep hunters that hiked over 100kms in a trip but now you want it made easier, if its to tough for you and you dont want to experience that type of hunt dont apply and leave it to those that want to. Its about the experience and hunt to some.

Goats are flown regularly and the population estimates are actually pretty good in most of the EK. Certainly better than the rest of the province.

You don't change the quota - the number of harvestable animals are based on population estimates (counts for goats). Counts change, number of harvestable animals change.


As far as the #s of goats being low, hahahaha - that's funny.

[GoatGuy]

My thought process is basically the same.

Just making the point that the right solution for any particular management unit may not work for another. And that just because its LEH doesn't mean that access restrictions are not required.

Just as an example, removing access restrictions in some sub-units could result in near 100% success rates, which would reduce the number of authorizations 10 fold, which would decrease hunter opportunity significantly.

And of course, access restrictions aren't always about goats, or sheep. :)

To increase goat harvest levels nearer to AAH, a combination of increased permits, less access restrictions where its compatible with the overall goat, wildlife and recreation strategies, and GOS where conservation is not compromised are all good in my books.

The best you're going to get for goats is around 60-80% success rates. Provincial participation rate is around 50-60% (number of people who buy tags). 100% only happens on draws like Kamloops Lake any ram and even that isn't a guarantee.


Have you and 6616 been talking?


Just trying to get me fired up, aren't you?


Wait, wait, what about white-tailed deer?

[6616]

Thats the trouble with you guys you only print #s you want to fool people
so no goats are coming outa 4-25 D,C orE and if this is the case then there should maybe not be a season there at all for the #s are to low.
Animals arnt being shot in a leh area so raise the quota and if you kill to many lower it the next year seems kinda dumb in my mind. Thought some of you were the big hard core sheep hunters that hiked over 100kms in a trip but now you want it made easier, if its to tough for you and you dont want to experience that type of hunt dont apply and leave it to those that want to. Its about the experience and hunt to some.

Population estimate for 4-25C is 280, AAH is 11, LEH permits let 32
Population estimate for 4-25D is 80, AAH is 3, permits let 21
Population estimate for 4-25E is 45, AAH is 2, permits let 8

Three year average success rate,,,, 0.

Numbers from MOE LEH spreadsheet.

[6616]

Wait, wait, what about white-tailed deer?

There are none in the EK ....

[6616]

Have you and 6616 been talking?

Nope............!

[Kody94]

Population estimate for 4-25C is 280, AAH is 11, LEH permits let 32
Population estimate for 4-25D is 80, AAH is 3, permits let 21
Population estimate for 4-25E is 45, AAH is 2, permits let 8

Three year average success rate,,,, 0.

Numbers from MOE LEH spreadsheet.

Should be some old billies there. :)

[Kody94]

Nope............!
Its true. :)



Wait, wait, what about white-tailed deer?
I was thinking NCS NBL!

[6616]

Should be some old billies there. :)

Exactly, at any rate they're all at least three years older then they were when the last one was shot...!

[6616]

Thats the trouble with you guys you only print #s you want to fool people
so no goats are coming outa 4-25 D,C orE and if this is the case then there should maybe not be a season there at all for the #s are to low.
Animals arnt being shot in a leh area so raise the quota and if you kill to many lower it the next year seems kinda dumb in my mind. Thought some of you were the big hard core sheep hunters that hiked over 100kms in a trip but now you want it made easier, if its to tough for you and you dont want to experience that type of hunt dont apply and leave it to those that want to. Its about the experience and hunt to some.

Let me ask you something Bayou, are you content to allow residents to under-utilize their allocation and eventually see a significant portion of the resident allocation transfered to guide-outfitters?

If there's a conservation concern, I don't think the correct thing to do is to just restrict resident opportuntiy, rather, the AAH should be lowered to a sustainable level and then the new lower allocations applied to both residents and non-residents equally.

The situation is not that we're shooting any fewer goats overall, the situation is that non-residents are harvesting more and residents fewer.

Remember that the current un-used portion of the resident allocation will be fully utilized if and when it's transfered to outfitters, so the result in the end could be more goats being shot.

[horshur]

Population estimate for 4-25C is 280, AAH is 11, LEH permits let 32
Population estimate for 4-25D is 80, AAH is 3, permits let 21
Population estimate for 4-25E is 45, AAH is 2, permits let 8

Three year average success rate,,,, 0.

Numbers from MOE LEH spreadsheet.

jeez..my mom managed to kill a Goat in C.WTH?

[GoatGuy]

Its true. :)


I was thinking NCS NBL!

Guess you weren't talking to 6616 then.

Save the joke for later.

[Kody94]

Guess you weren't talking to 6616 then.

Save the joke for later.

Not about whitetails anyway, although I think he and I (my personal opinion) are on the same page there.

[GoatGuy]

Not about whitetails anyway, although I think he and I (my personal opinion) are on the same page there.

It's a bit of a story.

[bayou]

Let me ask you something Bayou, are you content to allow residents to under-utilize their allocation and eventually see a significant portion of the resident allocation transfered to guide-outfitters?
Why are residents under-utilizing it is what has to be looked at since you guys base everything on the kill. If Im reading the LEH right the 3 mentioned zones are pretty much a guaranteed draw. Are they not finding the goats, not even going, dont want to put in the effort...
If there's a conservation concern, I don't think the correct thing to do is to just restrict resident opportuntiy, rather, the AAH should be lowered to a sustainable level and then the new lower allocations applied to both residents and non-residents equally.
Ive said that in other threads thats a given except its not equal residents get more
The situation is not that we're shooting any fewer goats overall, the situation is that non-residents are harvesting more and residents fewer.
Why? The non-resident comes on a paid hunt and wants to go home with something. Could it be that the residents are to lazy and once they find out its harder then they think they give up.
Remember that the current un-used portion of the resident allocation will be fully utilized if and when it's transfered to outfitters, so the result in the end could be more goats being shot.
But isnt that what your after a larger # of kills.

Now back to the sheep topic to me your punshing the hunter that wants the experience of this LEH hunt. Why cant some of these areas stay road closures etc why always cater to the one that wants it easier. If its to much for you dont apply, actually just buy a GOS tag and stop at the road closure and head up to your left up corral creek its not as far of a walk, and put in for one of the goat tags as well and get an elk and deer tags as well for there is other animals in the area. Goat guy probably just didnt see them from his plane or chopper or what ever he used for his count.
Another thing Im curious about was why if you guys are so worried about the resident sheep harvest #s in the EK being to low and possibly more of the allocation going to the outfitters, why your not out taken rams. Goatguy says he has friends that see a dozen full curls a year why didnt you take one this year to help your cause.

[6616]

[quote=bayou;394508Why are residents under-utilizing it is what has to be looked at since you guys base everything on the kill. If Im reading the LEH right the 3 mentioned zones are pretty much a guaranteed draw. Are they not finding the goats, not even going, dont want to put in the effort...
The situation is not that we're shooting any fewer goats overall, the situation is that non-residents are harvesting more and residents fewer.
Why? The non-resident comes on a paid hunt and wants to go home with something. Could it be that the residents are to lazy and once they find out its harder then they think they give up.
[/quote]

I wish I knew why Bayou. There may be an issue with the number of LEH authorizations in some areas, there may be an issue with access in some areas, it may well be that enough residents just aren't interested in goat (and sheep) hunting anymore, it may be a combination of the above, and there may be other factors we're not considering.

It would obviously be of great benefit to figure it out before 2012 when the new allocation percentages are set. The way things are heading, the outfitters will end up with a much higher percentage of the annual harvest if things don't change. If residents don't care, or don't need that allocation, then I guess it doesn't matter.

[GoatGuy]

Why are residents under-utilizing it is what has to be looked at since you guys base everything on the kill. If Im reading the LEH right the 3 mentioned zones are pretty much a guaranteed draw. Are they not finding the goats, not even going, dont want to put in the effort...

Probably using it as a backup. Maybe in one zone hoping they get the sheep draw that's un-utilized???



Why? The non-resident comes on a paid hunt and wants to go home with something. Could it be that the residents are to lazy and once they find out its harder then they think they give up.

Non-res also have several advantages, transportation and knowledge of the area being big ones. We did run into a couple of old guys (40s) chasing goats a pretty good ways back on foot so I'm pretty sure they weren't lazy.

Open it up to a GOS and lets see if residents go out, hunt and kill goats. I'm pretty sure they will.



Now back to the sheep topic to me your punshing the hunter that wants the experience of this LEH hunt. Why cant some of these areas stay road closures etc why always cater to the one that wants it easier. If its to much for you dont apply, actually just buy a GOS tag and stop at the road closure and head up to your left up corral creek its not as far of a walk, and put in for one of the goat tags as well and get an elk and deer tags as well for there is other animals in the area. Goat guy probably just didnt see them from his plane or chopper or what ever he used for his count.
Another thing Im curious about was why if you guys are so worried about the resident sheep harvest #s in the EK being to low and possibly more of the allocation going to the outfitters, why your not out taken rams. Goatguy says he has friends that see a dozen full curls a year why didnt you take one this year to help your cause.

Hahhahahaha, that's funny. Punishing hunters. More like letting people go hunting.

I couldn't keep track of the goats I saw in the EK this year.

There's one young guy who will be coming this year and he's fired up to pound a legal ram.

My buddy usually just tells other folks where to find them once he's spotted them.

We've been following 2 rams in particular - can't shoot 'em if you don't have a tag.

[Kody94]

a couple of old guys (40s) .

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/nutkick.gif

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/spank.gif

.........................

[GoatGuy]

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/nutkick.gif

http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/spank.gif

.........................

Hey, I only call it how I see it.


Shoulda seen the tail-tuggers hiking around up there (50s). Good thing we had ponies to get them up top. If we didn't we would have had to quarter them up to get them out.

[Kody94]

Shoulda seen the tail-tuggers hiking around up there (50s). Good thing we had ponies to get them up top. If we didn't we would have had to quarter them up to get them out.

I have been pretty careful about saying things like that since I was the only guy on an 8 day thru-hike that was under 50 (and 40 for another 11 mos), and was also the only one that needed to use a satt phone to call in helicopter assistance. :)


http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/hijacked.gif

[GoatGuy]

I have been pretty careful about saying things like that since I was the only guy on an 8 day thru-hike that was under 50 (and 40 for another 11 mos), and was also the only one that needed to use a satt phone to call in helicopter assistance. :)


http://www.dodgetalk.com/forums/images/smilies/hijacked.gif

Funny, my buddy's over 40 but he could walk a horse into the ground. Not quite human.

[Kody94]

Funny, my buddy's over 40 but he could walk a horse into the ground. Not quite human.

There are some over 50 that can do the same thing. I used to call it amazing, but now I call it inspiring. :)

Hopefully wet-behind-the-ear 20 somethings will think of me the same way 15 years from now. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif In which case I better get my azz out from behind this compooter.

[bayou]

[quote=GoatGuy;394646]Probably using it as a backup. Maybe in one zone hoping they get the sheep draw that's un-utilized???


Non-res also have several advantages, transportation and knowledge of the area being big ones. We did run into a couple of old guys (40s) chasing goats a pretty good ways back on foot so I'm pretty sure they weren't lazy.

Open it up to a GOS and lets see if residents go out, hunt and kill goats. I'm pretty sure they will.



Hahhahahaha, that's funny. Punishing hunters. More like letting people go hunting.

I couldn't keep track of the goats I saw in the EK this year.

There's one young guy who will be coming this year and he's fired up to pound a legal ram.

My buddy usually just tells other folks where to find them once he's spotted them.

We've been following 2 rams in particular - can't shoot 'em if you don't have a tag.
Not all people are the same some seek different experiences then you and dont mind the road closures or LEH.
Thats good now that your buddy has showing you were to find sheep you can take some one else in. See any one else in there last year?

[6616]

Hey, I only call it how I see it.


So if 40's are old guys where does a guy my age fit into this picture...???

[GoatGuy]

There are some over 50 that can do the same thing. I used to call it amazing, but now I call it inspiring. :)

Hopefully wet-behind-the-ear 20 somethings will think of me the same way 15 years from now. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon6.gif In which case I better get my azz out from behind this compooter.

Time will tell.

[GoatGuy]

Not all people are the same some seek different experiences then you and dont mind the road closures or LEH.
Thats good now that your buddy has showing you were to find sheep you can take some one else in. See any one else in there last year?

Don't need multiple layers of regulations - it's clear that under the current regulatory regime residents aren't hunting or harvesting goats.

Time for change - pick your pill. Access, # of LEH auth or scrap LEH all together.

My buddy doesn't fit the profile of the selfish/nimby/exclusionist hunter too well - guess it's something to strive for.:redface:


See you out there.

[GoatGuy]

So if 40's are old guys where does a guy my age fit into this picture...???

You've already climbed all those hills.

You can be the entertainer next year.

[bayou]

[quote=GoatGuy;395055]Don't need multiple layers of regulations - it's clear that under the current regulatory regime residents aren't hunting or harvesting goats.

Time for change - pick your pill. Access, # of LEH auth or scrap LEH all together.
Dont see need for change
My buddy doesn't fit the profile of the selfish/nimby/exclusionist hunter too well - guess it's something to strive for.:redface:
No he sure doesnt but you on the other hand, well I guess thats a matter of opinion.Thats the way it is some do all the ground work and others go in for the glory. But then its not in your backyard you just spend a week or 2 there and know whats best.


See you out there.
Possible but you didnt last time, not everyone uses horses, but you probably did have a more comfortable camp.

[Moosenose]

[quote=Jigger;393301][quote=BCrams;393041]Very true. However, a draw as such with 80:1 odds with access restrictions etc making it almost even worse - I believe this is an area where successful draw winners should be handed a map on how to get there and where to hunt those rams.

BC Rams,

Handed a map.......Is this how you hunt?: rumour has it that you either poach hunting information off of fellow hunter maps or use your old MOE connections to improve your odds and harvest opportunities for your future hunts. Talk to you soon Greg. By the way, the only reason you know anything about the Assiniboine is because you tried pumping that information out of Andy. If it weren't for the limited info he provided you, you wouldn't know F'all!


I use a map when hunting, what is wrong with that? If a friend gives me a map and tells me that he has seen game in a certain area, what is wrong with that? I have friends in government, in law enforcement, and all types of work. We trade hunting stories all the time, what is wrong with that? Poach hunting information? Poaching is illegal, gathering information to increase your odds is smart. 2 different things altogether. The more information you have on an area you are hunting, the better prepared you are. Good for BC Rams to prepare himself, and good for starting this thread!
Jigger, you need to get some friends.

[GoatGuy]

Don't need multiple layers of regulations - it's clear that under the current regulatory regime residents aren't hunting or harvesting goats.

Time for change - pick your pill. Access, # of LEH auth or scrap LEH all together.
Dont see need for change
My buddy doesn't fit the profile of the selfish/nimby/exclusionist hunter too well - guess it's something to strive for.:redface:
No he sure doesnt but you on the other hand, well I guess thats a matter of opinion.Thats the way it is some do all the ground work and others go in for the glory. But then its not in your backyard you just spend a week or 2 there and know whats best.


See you out there.
Possible but you didnt last time, not everyone uses horses, but you probably did have a more comfortable camp.

If you want to see the resident share to go down in 2012, that's fine. I suppose everybody's entitled to their opinion even if they want less hunting opportunity. I don't think most residents are like-minded when it comes to this topic. The LEH sheep idea is just the same.


If I were in it for 'the glory' I'd be looking for LEH to up my chances of a 'big ram' and I'd be shooting legal rams. I'm not that guy. I like to hunt and I like to see other people out hunting. Never been much for trying to 'keep people out', but hey, that's just me. Some people like to see hunters excluded and hunting shut down. Once again, everybody's entitled to their opinion.

See you out there - we'll be watching!

BTW if you cut and paste the quotes you won't have to use red writing. It makes it much easier to quote and much easier to read.