stone sheep harvest region 7b 1987 to 1998

[bridger]

Just as a matter of interest to sheep hunters and in response to some of the recent postings on the subject here is the harvest data by age for all stone rams harvested in region 7b for the 10 year period following the wolf kill carried out by the moe in the muskwa kechika during the mid 1980's. the average number of rams harvested by both residents and non residents annually was 347. As you can see from the chart the majority of rams were 8 & 9 years old. the wolf population has now recovered very nicely and the average harvest is down to about 180 per year. these stats show in my view the real reason for the decline in numbers and quality of rams now being harvested as hunters do not harvest ewes and lambs. I have the ensuing 10 years of data as well but will take a few days to compile will post when done if guys are interested.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/7B_Sheep_Harvest_by_Age_1987_to_1998s.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=12301&size=big&cat=500)

[bridger]

finally figured out how it is done thanks

[whitetailsheds]

Interesting to see from 1989 and 1990, it seems the age of the rams starts to decline from there. Then in 1998, the 10 and 11 year old's spike to their near historical heights.
Bridger, would you happen to have the hunter (res and non-res) numbers/ stats for these same years?

[tomahawk]

Good info, I like seeing the facts and data like this. Interesting that 23% of the rams were under 8 yrs of age. Definetly decling numbers but would need hunter numbers to do a real comparison. Thanks for sharing.

[Prowler]

Very interesting read, thanks for the post. I killed an 11 year old ram in 91, so kind of neat to be able to see stats that far back... Holy crap, that was 18 years ago!!! Dont know if I could climb that hill today..:(

[bridger]

Interesting to see from 1989 and 1990, it seems the age of the rams starts to decline from there. Then in 1990, the 10 and 11 year old's spike to their near historical heights.
Bridger, would you happen to have the hunter (res and non-res) numbers/ stats for these same years?
i may be able to dig them out. however i do have them separated for the period of 1999 to 2007. in fact i am looking through them right now instead of working on my business plan for the next year. can post them if guys are interested or can email direct. this is public info also have the harvest by guide area but am not able to release that.

[budismyhorse]

oh we're interested!

[bridger]

Very interesting read, thanks for the post. I killed an 11 year old ram in 91, so kind of neat to be able to see stats that far back... Holy crap, that was 18 years ago!!! Dont know if I could climb that hill today..:(

hey if i can you can!

[bridger]

Good info, I like seeing the facts and data like this. Interesting that 23% of the rams were under 8 yrs of age. Definetly decling numbers but would need hunter numbers to do a real comparison. Thanks for sharing.

can dig out the hunter numbers but the real key is the declining harvest levels as non resident numbers stay about the same. sucess rates for both resident and non res are going down that is another key indicator of a declining population. as a matter of interest in the late 80's the moe figure for total sheep population in 7b was over 12,000 inventories in 2007 indicate a population of 5000. co incides with my own observations over the last 40 yrs and that of many guide/outfitters as well

[Dirty]

I am not that up on sheep harvests and find these numbers enlightening. I did not know that this many sheep are harvested each year in 7B. What are the totals for all of BC? If numbers have decreased as you mentioned Bridger, would you advocate year restrictions like those brought in previously, like the 1 in 3 rule? I for one do not see the benefits of allowing sheep harvests every year for resident hunters. Although not too many people will be out popping sheep every year, there has to be some that are, or 2 in 3 and etc. I do not really know much about sheep conservation, but think that it is the responsibility of all hunters in BC to have self restraint when using our natural resources. I know a lot of guys will shoot the first legal sheep they see, but after that I think we owe it to the conservation to select mature trophy class rams when harvesting subsequent rams. I myself after getting a legal Stone Sheep will have no inspiration to go out and shoot a small legal ram, I would want my next ram to be a real trophy.

[budismyhorse]

Dirty, there can't be many resident hunters take sheep every year they hunt them. Factor in pure "luck" or lack of, weather conditions, personal "trophy" preference, time constraints, ect.....

Does anyone know of one single resident sheep hunter that shoots a ram each year......

And even if there is.....what does that harm when the total number of rams killed each year is the issue?

Bridger even alluded to the fact that it sounds like what may be more significant with regards to declining sheep numbers is the increasing wolf populations for one.

[whitetailsheds]

Or decreasing sheep hunter numbers......as Bridger said non-res has stayed the same, and res hunters decreased.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Interesting to see from 1989 and 1990, it seems the age of the rams starts to decline from there. Then in 1998, the 10 and 11 year old's spike to their near historical heights.
Bridger, would you happen to have the hunter (res and non-res) numbers/ stats for these same years?

Would be really interesting to see how these numbers correlate to numbers in the Yukon for the same time period.

After hearing how ram harvest(numbers, size and avg. age) correlated to ~10 year cyclical weather patterns in the Yukon, I would bet that the same could be true for us in the northern part of BC. Need to see a few decades of data to see the big picture.

SSS

[Bighorn hunter]

i may be able to dig them out. however i do have them separated for the period of 1999 to 2007. in fact i am looking through them right now instead of working on my business plan for the next year. can post them if guys are interested or can email direct. this is public info also have the harvest by guide area but am not able to release that.

why can't you release the GO info?Also on the wolf issue, I know a GO that has aggresivly hunted wolves in his area and subsequently has always done quite well with his sheep harvest

[willy442]

can dig out the hunter numbers but the real key is the declining harvest levels as non resident numbers stay about the same. sucess rates for both resident and non res are going down that is another key indicator of a declining population. as a matter of interest in the late 80's the moe figure for total sheep population in 7b was over 12,000 inventories in 2007 indicate a population of 5000. co incides with my own observations over the last 40 yrs and that of many guide/outfitters as well

I think the harvest age of G/O's and residents is also of interest and should be posted. It may clarify some of the issue's for many on here, also remember to take the the accuracy of the CI's and thier aging into account. Due to whatever factors you and I both know that many Sheep have moved lower over recent years. Some say it's due to flying, I believe it's the natural path they take for cover from pressure. This can somewhat question the actual estimates. However we all agree they are declining in numbers.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I've heard declining sheep numbers on the eastslope "may" be due to high elk numbers. High elk numbers= competition and high predator numbers and prey switching at critical times.

Haven't heard anything concrete though.:???:

SSS

[boxhitch]

Or decreasing sheep hunter numbers......as Bridger said non-res has stayed the same, and res hunters decreased.Thats the trouble with having a bit of info. What is unsaid is even more of a question.
Just like the ebb and flow of the Wokkpash hunters, effort goes through cycles.
As does weather, lamb recruitment, ram survival, predation........

[Dirty]

Has there been no initiative to poison the wolves? There should be I hate the bloody things.

[BCrams]

Has there been no initiative to poison the wolves? There should be I hate the bloody things.

Poisoning and Aerial gunning from helicopters was a big thing in the past.

Hard to conduct in this this politically correct world unless the activity is done on the down low with no knowledge of said activity to outsiders which include some outfits probably doing their own work One might ask Bradford how useful those cubs are of his in the winter.;)

[whitetailsheds]

Boxhitch, you've brought something up I've never heard of, or considered. "Effort goes thru cycles" in relation to factors that may influence stats/ success rates.
I have to bring in my own experience of chasing stone's to further explain.
It took me close to 20 years (17) to get my first ram, and over the course of those years, I can't really say my effort lessened or weakened. At least I never thought that it "cycled" in trying to get that first ram.
Granted there were times I did say to myself, "what the hell am I doing up here?"
Some call it addiction, passion, fanatical, etc. To me, it was always about persistence/ stubborness/ wife called it crazy. I was never going to get that first ram by laying around on the couch.
Where have you heard this? And what else do you know of this?
To me, there was never any question of not going and trying to get a stone ram. I would not have quit until my body just wouldn't get me up those hills.

[BCrams]

Where have you heard this? And what else do you know of this?
To me, there was never any question of not going and trying to get a stone ram.


One example:

2000 and 2001 have bad winters / hard spring and lamb survival is very low.

Fast forward 7-8, 9... yrs

2007-2008 Tougher hunting, fewer mature rams due to low recruitment in 2000 and 2001

2002 and 2003 great winter, great spring - higher lamb survival

fast forward 7-8, 9.... yrs

More mature rams available to hunt ......

Cyclic with many factors ...... weather being 1 contributing factor

Same with Jean Carey's paper regarding dall's. We were told to expect to see young rams and have a harder time finding mature rams this year.......true .... now smart guys with an excel sheet can sit down and start putting it all together to hit the so called ' good years '

[GoatGuy]

One example:

2000 and 2001 have bad winters / hard spring and lamb survival is very low.

Fast forward 7-8, 9... yrs

2007-2008 Tougher hunting, fewer mature rams due to low recruitment in 2000 and 2001

2002 and 2003 great winter, great spring - higher lamb survival

fast forward 7-8, 9.... yrs

More mature rams available to hunt ......

Cyclic with many factors ...... weather being 1 contributing factor

Same with Jean Carey's paper regarding dall's. We were told to expect to see young rams and have a harder time finding mature rams this year.......true .... now smart guys with an excel sheet can sit down and start putting it all together to hit the so called ' good years '

:razz::razz::razz::razz:

[BCRiverBoater]

Had a very interesting conversation with on of the owners of a territory in NE BC. Part of his territory also runs along the highway. We sat around the campfire for about 4 hours talking sheep and hunting in general. Most of what was mentioned here was his exact thoughts.

Wolf numbers are one of the biggest factors in his mind. He said it takes all the G/O to hunt and trap to be successful. Having one area knock them back while other territories do nothing is not productive. They move and chase the animals.

Also mentioned the fact the elk are exploding and moving higher. This is bringing the elk into the sheep wintering grounds. The wolves follow the elk then see the smaller/easier sheep and target them.

He questions the amount of burning they did in the 70's and 80's. He thinks the amount of burning and the areas they chose to burn may not have been the best decision in the end. They created new areas for feed or better ares for feed. This may have moved some of the animals into each others areas and brought the predators to areas they used to stay out of. Also he says the burns really helped the elk numbers to explode which brought the elk into the sheep areas as mentioned above. He said the areas they burned should have been closely chosen to avoid this from happening.

He was very friendly and supportive to us as residents. He stressed he was a local resident of BC and loved to hunt so got into guiding. He wants his kids and grandkids to be able to hunt freely and hopefully anywhere in the province.

[Gateholio]

Hmm.....

SO I shoudl hunt sheep next year, Rams?:p

[BCrams]

Hmm.....

SO I shoudl hunt sheep next year, Rams?:p

Every year is a good year to hunt sheep!

I hunt sheep because I love being in the mountains.

[Gateholio]

Every year is a good year to hunt sheep!

I hunt sheep because I love being in the mountains.

Well, that is a very good point. I live in the mountains....So I do enjoy it.:cool:

[boxhitch]

Where have you heard this? And what else do you know of this?
I usually just make it up as I go allong, and post whatever floats.

Like BCR posted, spring survival of lambs is a huge factor, and probably outweighs any hunter kills. We never have to manage for old rams, just make sure the lambs get a chance at life, and they will grow up.
Weather is the biggest killer.
The highest death rate of rams is in the 7-8 year old class, as they go into a tough winter after a rigorous breeding season and in poor condition. Again hunter harvest has nothing to do with the age of rams available. I bet 95% of hunters, resi- and non-, take what is in front of them, very few pass for something different. The fact some herds never seem to have old rams points to other factors.
Predators have their troubles too. Its not all buffet dining for them, they struggle too at times. Lots of bears never see the light of spring. Snow conditions can make it or break it for wolves. Ungulates do well in dep soft snow, wolves love a spring ice crust.

Its a complex world out here.

[bridger]

I am not that up on sheep harvests and find these numbers enlightening. I did not know that this many sheep are harvested each year in 7B. What are the totals for all of BC? If numbers have decreased as you mentioned Bridger, would you advocate year restrictions like those brought in previously, like the 1 in 3 rule? I for one do not see the benefits of allowing sheep harvests every year for resident hunters. Although not too many people will be out popping sheep every year, there has to be some that are, or 2 in 3 and etc. I do not really know much about sheep conservation, but think that it is the responsibility of all hunters in BC to have self restraint when using our natural resources. I know a lot of guys will shoot the first legal sheep they see, but after that I think we owe it to the conservation to select mature trophy class rams when harvesting subsequent rams. I myself after getting a legal Stone Sheep will have no inspiration to go out and shoot a small legal ram, I would want my next ram to be a real trophy.

surprisingly but stats show that very few resident hunters harvest rams on a regular basis there are a few exceptions but very very few the average seems to be about one every five years. the rule i personally prefer is a combination of age and time that was in effect for a while and had a very positive result on resident sheep harvest. that rule is simply if you harvest a ram under 8 yrs of age you cannot hunt for three years. if you harvestg a ram over 8 yrs old you can hunt the following year. the moe watches the total harvest very closely on an annual basis and at present seem to be satisfied. haven't got the stats for 2008 but should have them soon

[bridger]

I think the harvest age of G/O's and residents is also of interest and should be posted. It may clarify some of the issue's for many on here, also remember to take the the accuracy of the CI's and thier aging into account. Due to whatever factors you and I both know that many Sheep have moved lower over recent years. Some say it's due to flying, I believe it's the natural path they take for cover from pressure. This can somewhat question the actual estimates. However we all agree they are declining in numbers.

i have the age structure for the last 10 years and am putting it together and will post when i have it finished. the g/o age structure is really good and always has been with the odd exception as in the past their quota's were tied to age of the rams they took. no longer the case so it will be interesting to see the past years results

[bridger]

I've heard declining sheep numbers on the eastslope "may" be due to high elk numbers. High elk numbers= competition and high predator numbers and prey switching at critical times.

Haven't heard anything concrete though.:???:

SSS

increasing elk populations definately appear to be having some effect on sheep populations as they compete for winter range also provide a lot more opportunites for predators to survive. i have noticed a real decline in the numbers of ewes and lambs over the past few years. moe is doing a study on sheep mortality. it is in i believe its fifth year now shuld be getting some results soon

[bridger]

Every year is a good year to hunt sheep!

I hunt sheep because I love being in the mountains.


it is a well documented fact that the good Lord does not count the days you spend sheep hunting and sheep hunting acutually increases your life span.

[bridger]

I think the harvest age of G/O's and residents is also of interest and should be posted. It may clarify some of the issue's for many on here, also remember to take the the accuracy of the CI's and thier aging into account. Due to whatever factors you and I both know that many Sheep have moved lower over recent years. Some say it's due to flying, I believe it's the natural path they take for cover from pressure. This can somewhat question the actual estimates. However we all agree they are declining in numbers.

I think you are correct saying that sheep seem to be more in the timber in recent years and probably from pressure. haven't flown much and don't know if fixed wing aircraft are a problem or not. I have been on sheep mtns watching rams when a plane has flown by. in my experience unless the pilot is very low rams don't appear to be bothered much. nosler bullets flying by seem to be of more interest them cheers

[bigwhiteys]

the rule i personally prefer is a combination of age and time that was in effect for a while and had a very positive result on resident sheep harvest. that rule is simply if you harvest a ram under 8 yrs of age you cannot hunt for three years. if you harvestg a ram over 8 yrs old you can hunt the following year.

Good to hear you say that... I think it was a good rule and wish they'd bring it back. It left some of the responsibility of conservation in the hands of the individual hunter.

If you've just got to shoot that younger ram because you've hunted forever and haven't seen another or it's your 1st ram or whatever the excuse may be then it might cost you 3 years sheep hunting if he is CI'd under 8 by a qualified inspector.

Take your time, Learn how to identify and then harvest a mature ram and you can keep on hunting...

That to me seems like a million times better then LEH. It leaves the decision of whether you can hunt them again the following year in your own hands. I like it, but many others do not.

Carl

[GoatGuy]

Good to hear you say that... I think it was a good rule and wish they'd bring it back. It left some of the responsibility of conservation in the hands of the individual hunter.

If you've just got to shoot that younger ram because you've hunted forever and haven't seen another or it's your 1st ram or whatever the excuse may be then it might cost you 3 years sheep hunting if he is CI'd under 8 by a qualified inspector.

Take your time, Learn how to identify and then harvest a mature ram and you can keep on hunting...

That to me seems like a million times better then LEH. It leaves the decision of whether you can hunt them again the following year in your own hands. I like it, but many others do not.

Carl

It isn't that many others don't like this; it's that many others look at conservation.

If there's a conservation concern then that seems to be the very best solution and the first step.


If there is no conservation concern there is no need for overly onerous regulations.

[GoatGuy]

Overall, this has been a great thread.

I think what we're hearing is that for many sheep hunting isn't about the biggest and best but more about the opportunity and ability to go out experience the outdoors and shoot an animal so long as the regulations do not create a conservation concern.

I think that people should consider that for some hunters elk and deer hunting is no different than sheep hunting. So long as the regulations meet the needs of the species that is where we should be setting the regulations. Just something to think about.

[whitetailsheds]

Goatguy you stated, "If there is no conservation concern there is no need for overly onerous regulations." Late '80's sheep inventories estimated 12,000, then in 2007 - 5000. When does this become a conservation concern? How reliable are these counts? Did PETA do the last sheep count?

[budismyhorse]

I know how some guys on here love stats.....but I figured this might be beneficial.

Percent Stones Killed under the age of 8, 1999-2007, resident vs non resident.

Looks to me like both sides "percent under 8" has responded similarily over the past decade.

cheers

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/7B_Sheep_under_8_percentage.JPG

[Skeena Hunter 1]

Someone please define "conservation concern".

Good luck with that. Also I would caution people on how they throw the term around.

[bigwhiteys]

If there is no conservation concern there is no need for overly onerous regulations

So what is "overly onerous" about the 1 in 3 rule...?

Shoot young ram, take home put on wall, wait 3 more years.
Shoot mature ram, take home put on wall, get ready for next season.

Reward those helping the sheep, conservation concern or not.

Carl

[whitetailsheds]

"Someone please define "conservation concern".

Good luck with that. Also I would caution people on how they throw the term around."

Huh?"

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy you stated, "If there is no conservation concern there is no need for overly onerous regulations." Late '80's sheep inventories estimated 12,000, then in 2007 - 5000. When does this become a conservation concern? How reliable are these counts? Did PETA do the last sheep count?

You have to break wildlife management into two separate groups, guys and girls.

With sheep as long as you have enough 'mature' sperm hitting the rutting grounds you're in good shape. It's when you don't have enough that you run into problems (delayed breeding, lambing, high mortality in both the mature and immature ram segment -blah blah blah). That's where you need to regulate the harvest. The 8 yr rule is a 'fail-safe' rule, that doesn't mean that you can't harvest under 8, just that you can't harvest too much under 8.

It's unlikely that hunting has much to do with the current decline in the sheep population. Predators, competition and habitat are all problems that a person needs to look at.

BTW the pop estimate is 5,000-7,000

[GoatGuy]

So what is "overly onerous" about the 1 in 3 rule...?

Shoot young ram, take home put on wall, wait 3 more years.
Shoot mature ram, take home put on wall, get ready for next season.

Reward those helping the sheep, conservation concern or not.

Carl

What's overly onerous about a 170 minimum?

[bigwhiteys]

What's overly onerous about a 170 minimum?

You can't answer the question without twisting it around?

What's overly onerous about the 1 in 3?

Carl

[Kody94]

You guys kinda lost me there too...
C

[GoatGuy]

You can't answer the question without twisting it around?

What's overly onerous about the 1 in 3?

Carl


Why would you have a regulation if it isn't needed?


The average resident hunter is going to struggle identifying the difference between a 7 or 8 yr old ram - that's a fact. Why punish them if the regulation is not required?


So, if you want to raise the bar, because you feel like it, why not bring it up to a 170 minimum?


The sharp end of the stick.

[bridger]

Why would you have a regulation if it isn't needed?


The average resident hunter is going to struggle identifying the difference between a 7 or 8 yr old ram - that's a fact. Why punish them if the regulation is not required?


So, if you want to raise the bar, because you feel like it, why not bring it up to a 170 minimum?


The sharp end of the stick.


at the end of the day moe officials have the final say. at present they don't see the need for any restrictions on resident stone sheep hunters at that is all there is to the matter. and i agree why have a regulation when we don't need it there is enough of that already

[Gateholio]

How many resident sheep hunters go 3 for 3, anyway?

I say resident because I don't think the 1 in 3 rule applied to non residents.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

We know someone on here that went 3 for 4.

3 completely different looking rams and all beauties(as far as I'm concerned)

SSS

[GoatGuy]

How many resident sheep hunters go 3 for 3, anyway?

I say resident because I don't think the 1 in 3 rule applied to non residents.

Got a buddy who's shot a couple.:-o

Only 1 is 7, mind you.

Sheep meat's delicious.

[Kody94]

How many resident sheep hunters go 3 for 3, anyway?

I say resident because I don't think the 1 in 3 rule applied to non residents.

I went two for 3 back in the 1 in 3 days. Of course, I'm oh-fer-8 since. ;)

And I agree that sheep meat is delicious. The wife would love for me to bring back a meat ram every year.

[goatdancer]

There have been a lot of threads here regarding the ' guess the age of this ram ' scenario. As a rank amateur sheep seeker, I am finding the easiest rule is the ' full curl ' rule. If the age factor is a serious concern, then I agree with the 1 in 3 rule to ensure the viability of sheep hunting. The stats are very interesting and seem to correspond to the lack of success I've had in the years I ventured up north hunting for the elusive stone sheep. The key is the hunt, the lack of actually bagging one just makes the next trip more interesting.

[Gateholio]

We know someone on here that went 3 for 4.

3 completely different looking rams and all beauties(as far as I'm concerned)

SSS


Got a buddy who's shot a couple.:-o

Only 1 is 7, mind you.

Sheep meat's delicious.


I went two for 3 back in the 1 in 3 days. Of course, I'm oh-fer-8 since. ;)

And I agree that sheep meat is delicious. The wife would love for me to bring back a meat ram every year.


Of course it's happened :)

But is it common, and do we need to have a rule about it? Are there hordes of hunters shooting 7 year old sheep, year after year? SOmehting tells me no...

[bridger]

How many resident sheep hunters go 3 for 3, anyway?

I say resident because I don't think the 1 in 3 rule applied to non residents.

the one in three rule applied to non residents as well didn't have much effect tho as not many nonres can afford the price of a stone hunt each year tho some do not many

[bridger]

There have been a lot of threads here regarding the ' guess the age of this ram ' scenario. As a rank amateur sheep seeker, I am finding the easiest rule is the ' full curl ' rule. If the age factor is a serious concern, then I agree with the 1 in 3 rule to ensure the viability of sheep hunting. The stats are very interesting and seem to correspond to the lack of success I've had in the years I ventured up north hunting for the elusive stone sheep. The key is the hunt, the lack of actually bagging one just makes the next trip more interesting.
there is a easy way to tell if a sheep is over 8 but it takes some explaining if i can get one of my computer geek buddies to draw the right picture with explanations i will post it. it was shown to me by one of the better sheep outfitters in canada and it works everytime

[BCrams]

there is a easy way to tell if a sheep is over 8 but it takes some explaining if i can get one of my computer geek buddies to draw the right picture with explanations i will post it. it was shown to me by one of the better sheep outfitters in canada and it works everytime


This should be interesting considering all the past discussions over sheep aging under field conditions.

[Kody94]

Yep. I'd love to see it too. http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon14.gif

[eric]

YES Bridger, please get your computer buddies to draw up a diagram.
Thanks
Eric

[boxhitch]

What ? someone has come up with a easy way of counting to 8 ?
A short cut ?
"Four behind the eye" does it ??

[boxhitch]

I don't agree that the 1-in-3 rule does anything to save sheep.
It displaces hunters, they don't stop hunting.
Some guys have gone 3fer3, 2fer2, whatever, still others have a dozen or more sheep mounts. They keep on hunting and shooting rams that present themselves.
The 1-in-3 was proven not to be a conservation tool, and that it was just a obsticle to hunter.

[boxhitch]

I think you are correct saying that sheep seem to be more in the timber in recent years and probably from pressure.
Not sure I agree. I think those that are left are the ones in the timber. A percentage has always been there, and now in relation to declining numbers, they are being sought out.
I think it would take more than a couple of decades for an animal to change its basic behavioural patterns. Trouble lives in the timber, thats why sheep and goats use the adverse terrain of the tops to an advantage. They haven't suddenly learned how to fend off wolves in the trees.
Or maybe the predators are gone from some areas ?;)

Actually I think the myth was created by poor hunters.
'They must be in the trees, I can't find them in the rocks.' :)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Not sure I agree. I think those that are left are the ones in the timber. A percentage has always been there, and now in relation to declining numbers, they are being sought out.
I think it would take more than a couple of decades for an animal to change its basic behavioural patterns. Trouble lives in the timber, thats why sheep and goats use the adverse terrain of the tops to an advantage. They haven't suddenly learned how to fend off wolves in the trees.
Or maybe the predators are gone from some areas ?;)

Actually I think the myth was created by poor hunters.
'They must be in the trees, I can't find them in the rocks.' :)

Good points, Boxhitch.

Studies that they have done on sheep have indicated that their heart rates go up when entering more closley confined areas like timber.
Can't see this changing a lot over a couple of generations.

SSS

[Creeker]

I don't agree that the 1-in-3 rule does anything to save sheep.
It displaces hunters, they don't stop hunting.
Some guys have gone 3fer3, 2fer2, whatever, still others have a dozen or more sheep mounts. They keep on hunting and shooting rams that present themselves.
The 1-in-3 was proven not to be a conservation tool, and that it was just a obsticle to hunter.

I somewhat agree that the 1-3 is not a complete conversatin tool but,

Some of my problem with the sheep every year reg.. Is the few that will take a young ram at the end of there hunt to sell the cape or just because they can. I have seen this and it pisses me off. Any hunter that has to kill a stone every year after year just to get repeated juvenile ram on the wall should be regulated to 1 in 3.
If people can go 3 for 3 on mature rams is one thing and I am sure there are that do so but I like to believe that most sheep hunters would rather watch a young ram walk than pat themselves on the back for going 3 for 3 or what ever just because they can. But believe you me there are some real gems out there.

[bigwhiteys]

I don't agree that the 1-in-3 rule does anything to save sheep.

I don't think it's saving them but it definitely wouldn't be hurting them... Especially in the easier accessible areas where I am sure many of these younger rams come from. I would agree that a handful of young rams harvested from the entire population every year isn't going to cause any irreversible damages, when it's concentrated to a smaller area and specific populations of sheep year after year, you bet it would have an impact.

Carl

[bigwhiteys]

I think it would take more than a couple of decades for an animal to change its basic behavioural patterns.

According to research cited in some of Geists books it can take a sheep population as little as 5 generations to make significant changes in their behavior and habitat that is then passed down to the subsequent generations to follow.

Carl

[willy442]

Not sure I agree. I think those that are left are the ones in the timber. A percentage has always been there, and now in relation to declining numbers, they are being sought out.
I think it would take more than a couple of decades for an animal to change its basic behavioural patterns. Trouble lives in the timber, thats why sheep and goats use the adverse terrain of the tops to an advantage. They haven't suddenly learned how to fend off wolves in the trees.
Or maybe the predators are gone from some areas ?;)

Actually I think the myth was created by poor hunters.
'They must be in the trees, I can't find them in the rocks.' :)

Poor hunters you say! How many big Rams have you taken over the years? I can show you many areas that never ever held Sheep with in our old guide area. In recent years these spots have become havens for them due to many different factors. I have also watched Rams come off a mountain and enter timbered ridges for protection. Wolves are but 1 predator there are others.

[willy442]

Good points, Boxhitch.

Studies that they have done on sheep have indicated that their heart rates go up when entering more closley confined areas like timber.
Can't see this changing a lot over a couple of generations.

SSS

Keep hunting the tops and walking your ass off amongst the seven year olds. They are easy. Think about how many big rams have been taken in recent years and look at the country in the photo's. Feed is better in the timber, good feed helps make big horns.

Burn off a slope and Sheep will feed on it the following year even if they were never there before. Is one year a generation?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Keep hunting the tops and walking your ass off amongst the seven year olds. They are easy. Think about how many big rams have been taken in recent years and look at the country in the photo's. Feed is better in the timber, good feed helps make big horns.

Burn off a slope and Sheep will feed on it the following year even if they were never there before. Is one year a generation?

Are we talking thick timber or buck brush and scrub timber?? Transition areas?? How far away fro the timberline are we talking?? Several hundred yrds?? 100 yds?? A mile??

Easy to see glass down into that stuff when you're up high. Hard to glass those areas from below.....no??

Never nypass a burn....common sense....even years later. Easier for them to see predators after a bur than before a burn. No?

Forrest ingrowth has caused migration routes of sheep to change...even prevents them from migrating in certain areas(thinking of the Marble range down south). Fact is that they like to be able to see to at least some degree.

SSS

[GoatGuy]

According to research cited in some of Geists books it can take a sheep population as little as 5 generations to make significant changes in their behavior and habitat that is then passed down to the subsequent generations to follow.

Carl

Talking to the old g/os in region 4 for the rams seem to have picked new nests to hang out during hunting season. Sometimes you'll pick them up on the 'traditional' spots but there's a couple spots that consistently hold rams where the guys have said there were never sheep.

You're also dealing with forest ingrowth but for the most part the 'ram nests' don't seem to be where they used to be.

[BCrams]

I'm in the camp that believes rams (not all) have changed their behaviour and frequently utilize non-traditional habitat where GO / residents never really pay attention to.

[bigwhiteys]

Are we talking thick timber or buck brush and scrub timber?? Transition areas?? How far away fro the timberline are we talking?? Several hundred yrds?? 100 yds?? A mile??

We've seen rams on mountains that don't even really have a timberline, they aren't that high. I've also watched a band of rams come out of heavy timber, walk about 1/2 mile down ridge and feed for an hour in a small hanging basin (not visible from below) only to turn around and go right back into the thick timber when finished. I am pretty sure 1 of these rams get shot every year, possibly more. Good little spot.


Never nypass a burn....common sense....even years later. Easier for them to see predators after a bur than before a burn. No?


I would think standing timber would be easier for the sheep to see in unless the burn happened extremely recent. As the burn gets older it obviously becomes pretty difficult for the sheep to see. The quality of the feed probably outweighs the risk of predation though (especially for the older more experienced rams) and let's not forget that rams traveling in a band have several eyes, ears and noses on constant alert for danger. I am sure this makes them much more comfortable in this terrain.

There is all kinds of cliffs, rocky outcrops, canyons and hidey holes for rams to live in that are surrounded by heavy timber on the fringes of the higher mountains. Don't forget about the mineral licks either! I cited Geists research earlier, I am reading through it again trying to find what they figure a "generation" of sheep might be. I am thinking 5-7 years, so roughly 30 years and this animal can make very significant changes to their behavior. That's a pretty valuable survival skill.

Carl

[BCRiverBoater]

I agree residents may over look the non traditional spots. But you would think that G/O's that are all ready hurting on success rates would be looking very closely at all parts of their areas to find where the rams may have gone. Of course not all guides are used to hunting timber and may lack the ability to find them compared to some who have routinely killed timber rams but I find it hard to believe that G/O's would over look areas. G/O's do not hunt every valley every year nor do they look in some areas for long periods of time. The rams may move into these areas but overall I would hope they are spending time to find them when the are charging over $30k per hunt.

One thing to consider is there are very few old time guides left that really knew the sheep and their habitat. So many territories are using green guides that may be over looking a ton of area or due to lack of knowledge only count on certain areas they know of instead of trying some newer drainage's.

I do not doubt for a second that the sheep or any animal will change its habits or ranges to try to survive. There is no doubt sheep are in areas that historically did not have sheep as well has good ram mountains that do not have a ram on them. Sheep most likely move into areas with little to no pressure but these areas will not stay pressure free for long. People have planes and horses and will find them even if by accident.

[GoatGuy]

I agree residents may over look the non traditional spots. But you would think that G/O's that are all ready hurting on success rates would be looking very closely at all parts of their areas to find where the rams may have gone. Of course not all guides are used to hunting timber and may lack the ability to find them compared to some who have routinely killed timber rams but I find it hard to believe that G/O's would over look areas. G/O's do not hunt every valley every year nor do they look in some areas for long periods of time. The rams may move into these areas but overall I would hope they are spending time to find them when the are charging over $30k per hunt.

One thing to consider is there are very few old time guides left that really knew the sheep and their habitat. So many territories are using green guides that may be over looking a ton of area or due to lack of knowledge only count on certain areas they know of instead of trying some newer drainage's.

I do not doubt for a second that the sheep or any animal will change its habits or ranges to try to survive. There is no doubt sheep are in areas that historically did not have sheep as well has good ram mountains that do not have a ram on them. Sheep most likely move into areas with little to no pressure but these areas will not stay pressure free for long. People have planes and horses and will find them even if by accident.

This all probably depends on the area as well. On the 6 side the rams seem to be in the same spots they've been in for the past 20+ years. Simply a process of elimination.

[boxhitch]

Had an interesting talk with another sheepnut this a.m., about behaviour.
It is also suggested that sheep will change their traditional travel, and explore new areas, if the old monarchs are not there to follow. Hunting and die-offs can leave younger rams to wonder, and stop where ever is suitable. Rams moving back and forth annually to and from breeding areas could easily stumble on good feed.
Some would certainly not be the best for survival and those die, but if they are not pressured may stay in new homeland.
But chances are there has been some implanting of traits and they will seek out habitat similar to what they are familiar with. To change from a rock-dweller to a tree-dweller is less likely.

With that in mind, maybe the harvest of some younger animals, leaving a diverse age group, is a good thing.
(Hhmm..I think I have heard that said before........?)

More fodder.

[boxhitch]

Of course not all guides are used to hunting timber and may lack the ability to find them compared to some who have routinely killed timber rams but I find it hard to believe that G/O's would over look areas.
No surprise at all.
past success usually dictates how operations go on, and new guides follow. And you will not find a story or article about stalking Stone's in the timber. Try that one with a client and see how long it lasts. Nobody walks into the woods looking for sheep just in case they may be there.
Stone's are usually in the open, and may be seen at the fringes, but will be hunted in the open when they move back out for safety.

[boxhitch]

Poor hunters you say! How many big Rams have you taken over the years? I can show you many areas that never ever held Sheep with in our old guide area. In recent years these spots have become havens for them due to many different factors. I have also watched Rams come off a mountain and enter timbered ridges for protection. Wolves are but 1 predator there are others.
I wasn't pointing fingures, but you raised your hand.
Sorry for getting your heartrate up.

[boxhitch]

More fodder

Sheep counts are done following the same flight tracks as previous counts, to get a feel for what the sheep numbers are. They are not expected to see all the sheep, but are related to outcomes of previous counts......

So if so many sheep have moved to non traditional areas, how are htey accounted for ? What would be the real numbers be if the whole area was searched and counted ?
Numbers are down in traditional areas, a given, but are they gone ? or moved ?
Has the sightability factor been adjusted as flights are restricted ?

Hhhhmmm........

[willy442]

Good points, Boxhitch.

Studies that they have done on sheep have indicated that their heart rates go up when entering more closley confined areas like timber.
Can't see this changing a lot over a couple of generations.

SSS

You say the heart beat goes up when they enter the timber. Did you have a hind leg in each rubber boot when you were counting?:wink:

If a sheep has become acustom to the lower elevations i would think this is not the case. However one that is or has been living on the higher elevations and recently came down this could very well be the case.

What I can tell you is that over my guiding career some of the best Rams I ever took including my own were Rams that lived in the lower elevations until late September every year. Many of these Rams were only found after approx the 20th of September. The big broomed ram that has been posted on this site before is one. The first time that ram was seen was the 21 of October, I had a hunter miss him 5 times from above at 175 yards. The season ended that day and I estimated him at 49 inches in length. The following August, I went back into that same patch of mountains and hunted there for three consecutive Sheep hunts, taking a good Ram for every client and never saw any sign of that big Ram. I left and returned with a hunter on a spike camp in late September and immediatly found the Ram in a group of nine with 3 other book Rams that had been with him the year before. We climbed and got to with in 200 yards of the group bedded in a low saddle. The hunter set up our packs for a rest and got comfortable to take what was surely a Ram to go top three in the B&C. He went to jack one into the chamber of his 300 weatherby, this is when the mess started. His friend back in Alabama did thier groups reloading and for some reason the cartridge stuck about 1/2 inch from going into the chamber. We were screwed and could not get the thing in or out of the gun. The decision was made to back off up the ridge and try to pry the cartridge out. We backed off a couple of hundred yards and I tried to pound the point of my knife through the brass so we could pry against the barrel and maybe get it out. Unfortunately while this was going on, unknown to us the Rams had got up and were coming up the ridge towards us. Next thing we knew was looking up to see a Ram of 48 to 50 inches at about 6 feet. The end of this story is there is still a 300 weatherby on that mountain some where over the cliffs. The Ram was not seen again that year.
In 1975, I again hunted three hunters in that surrounding area again taking three Rams and no sign of the big guy or his group. On the 12th of October myself and a young wrangler from FSJ returned with a hunter from Montana into the same basin where I had always found him, it was bitterly cold and deep snow. There was no sign of any living critter any where, no tracks in the snow nothing. We made a fire to thaw our sandwhiches and have lunch. After lunch I said lets walk a little farther up into the basin and look into the bottom that we couldn't see. We walked about 75 yards when out of the brush at 35 yards jumped 3 book Rams. The big guy was in the lead when he died measuring 42 7/8 inches. The estimates were he had broomed about 9 inches.

Where these rams were many low timbered ridges are close by much like the mountains from the big ram taken last year in region 6. I know for a fact that is where these Rams lived year after year. The story of the 2 book rams also posted on here before of which one is my own is much the same with me getting them in the second year at another similar spot. So think what you may but I will believe what I saw with my own eye's. Maybe this could even help you take a Ram over 7 some day.

[willy442]

Are we talking thick timber or buck brush and scrub timber?? Transition areas?? How far away fro the timberline are we talking?? Several hundred yrds?? 100 yds?? A mile??

Sheep hunting lessons don't come cheap. So lets just leave it as Timber.

Easy to see glass down into that stuff when you're up high. Hard to glass those areas from below.....no??

Actually still very hard to see down into in early season better with snow. Free lessons are over now.

Never nypass a burn....common sense....even years later. Easier for them to see predators after a bur than before a burn. No?

Under brush grows up fast in burns, reall don't think they can see much at all as single animals. Sheep are a group animal and feel safety in numbers in these situations.

Forrest ingrowth has caused migration routes of sheep to change...even prevents them from migrating in certain areas(thinking of the Marble range down south). Fact is that they like to be able to see to at least some degree.

Don't compatre Stones to down south they are a totally diferent animal.

SSS

It has been my observation over all the generations that we operated through that Sheep will move and can adapt reasonably fast.

[willy442]

Are we talking thick timber or buck brush and scrub timber?? Transition areas?? How far away fro the timberline are we talking?? Several hundred yrds?? 100 yds?? A mile??

Easy to see glass down into that stuff when you're up high. Hard to glass those areas from below.....no??

Never nypass a burn....common sense....even years later. Easier for them to see predators after a bur than before a burn. No?

Forrest ingrowth has caused migration routes of sheep to change...even prevents them from migrating in certain areas(thinking of the Marble range down south). Fact is that they like to be able to see to at least some degree.

SSS


Not sure I agree. I think those that are left are the ones in the timber. A percentage has always been there, and now in relation to declining numbers, they are being sought out.
I think it would take more than a couple of decades for an animal to change its basic behavioural patterns. Trouble lives in the timber, thats why sheep and goats use the adverse terrain of the tops to an advantage. They haven't suddenly learned how to fend off wolves in the trees.
Or maybe the predators are gone from some areas ?;)

Actually I think the myth was created by poor hunters.
'They must be in the trees, I can't find them in the rocks.' :)

Actually the timber I'm refering to still has a fair amount of rocky cliffs etc., for protection from predators. How ever it is not mountain tops. One of the biggest Rams taken in the 70's came off of Steam Boat Mtn, another out of the canyon on the Sikanni and many off of Samuels MTN if any of you know where that is. All lower elevations.

[willy442]

More fodder

Sheep counts are done following the same flight tracks as previous counts, to get a feel for what the sheep numbers are. They are not expected to see all the sheep, but are related to outcomes of previous counts......

So if so many sheep have moved to non traditional areas, how are htey accounted for ? What would be the real numbers be if the whole area was searched and counted ?
Numbers are down in traditional areas, a given, but are they gone ? or moved ?
Has the sightability factor been adjusted as flights are restricted ?

Hhhhmmm........

Usually counts done on winter ranges will provide better estimates and sheep that live in what you are calling non traditional areas move up to feed on the wind blow slopes as they are unable to feed through much snow.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Maybe this could even help you take a Ram over 7 some day.

I doubt it willy.....but thanks for your story anyhow. It was very good.:smile:

Oh.....and thanks for finally admitting that my cali is only 7 ....which makes the confiscated Spences ram only 7. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks???:p


SSS

[willy442]

I doubt it willy.....but thanks for your story anyhow. It was very good.:smile:

Oh.....and thanks for finally admitting that my cali is only 7 ....which makes the confiscated Spences ram only 7. Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks???


SSS

I think we should wait and let the Judge decide. I thought all your Rams were 7.:p

[boxhitch]

Where these rams were many low timbered ridges are close by much like the mountains from the big ram taken last year in region 6. I know for a fact that is where these Rams lived year after year. The story of the 2 book rams also posted on here before of which one is my own is much the same with me getting them in the second year at another similar spot. So think what you may but I will believe what I saw with my own eye's. Maybe this could even help you take a Ram over 7 some day.Good storys about a good bunch of big rams. Were you fortunate enough to see them in that timber, or to kill one in there ?
Sounds like lots of smaller rams died nearby, in open terrain maybe ?

[BCrams]

willy - great story! Thats the kind of stuff I like reading along with Bridger's story. Can't imagine coming across such rams as those you describe and having your hunters harvest!

[BCRiverBoater]

Actually the timber I'm refering to still has a fair amount of rocky cliffs etc., for protection from predators. How ever it is not mountain tops. One of the biggest Rams taken in the 70's came off of Steam Boat Mtn, another out of the canyon on the Sikanni and many off of Samuels MTN if any of you know where that is. All lower elevations.

Ah...the infamous Samuels MTN. Now how many residents walked by that mountain on their way to sheep country? I have heard so many stories from the ol' locals that were lucky enough to hunt in that era.

[willy442]

Good storys about a good bunch of big rams. Were you fortunate enough to see them in that timber, or to kill one in there ?
Sounds like lots of smaller rams died nearby, in open terrain maybe ?

Yes as a matter of fact I have taken good Rams well below timber line. I also know of many others taken by some of the better guides back in the day. The other Rams by the way were not small, they just were not 43 to 51 inches. I have lost more Rams in the bush mind you than I have been successful on and most others will tell you the same. Remember even in the timber there are openings, cliffs and mineral licks. Patience is the key if you know where you are hunting.

Look back at some of Gary Powells and Earl Boose's old photo's and you will see many Rams harvested way below timber line.

Two of the best ones that got away on me was with Craig Boddington and Arnie Johns, both past presidents of the FNAWS. Craig still appears on the hunting channel on T.V. write him sometime and have him tell you the story.

My younger brother got on a group of 31 Rams in the timber one time. 2 Rams were over 46 inches. The hunter he had was deaf. They got a bullet into one but lost him. We flew many hours in that area looking for him with our Super Cub and even hired a helicopter to assist. Never did find him, he was the only Ram we ever lost.

[willy442]

Ah...the infamous Samuels MTN. Now how many residents walked by that mountain on their way to sheep country? I have heard so many stories from the ol' locals that were lucky enough to hunt in that era.

I guess you know then, the whole mountain is below timber line, has an old siesmec line running right down the top of the ridge.

[BCRiverBoater]

I guess you know then, the whole mountain is below timber line, has an old siesmec line running right down the top of the ridge.

Didn't one of the biggest rams of all time in that territory come off that mountain years ago?

[bridger]

yes gary powell one of the first outfitters in the north killed a 46 or 47 inch ram on samuels mtn. several resident river boat hunters also got some big rams on samuels before the moe closed the mtn. another really big ram 45" was taken by an alberta hunter named keith brown about the same time on the lower sikanni river of the east side of the highway miles from what we usuallythink of as good sheep habitat. there is stil a small bunch of sheep as well as quite few goats down there i gues old saying of rams are where u find them is sometimes true

[BCRiverBoater]

yes gary powell one of the first outfitters in the north killed a 46 or 47 inch ram on samuels mtn. several resident river boat hunters also got some big rams on samuels before the moe closed the mtn. another really big ram 45" was taken by an alberta hunter named keith brown about the same time on the lower sikanni river of the east side of the highway miles from what we usuallythink of as good sheep habitat. there is stil a small bunch of sheep as well as quite few goats down there i gues old saying of rams are where u find them is sometimes true

I did not think there was an open season on the lower Sikanni anymore. I haven't looked for years and years.

[whitetailsheds]

Bridger, with the access to these stats you've been showing, I'd assume you've got a line to info or "going's on" at higher levels or some of the decision makers. Have you any info/ discussions of changes to stone sheep hunting?
Thanks for your effort. It is nice to hear of this, and see what other hunter's think, heated or not!

[bridger]

I did not think there was an open season on the lower Sikanni anymore. I haven't looked for years and years.


there isn't it was closed the year after brown killed the big ram.

[bridger]

in respone to whitetails post here is the status of any changes to the stone sheep harvest regs as I understand the situation others may have different info. In 2007 the bcwf, the goabc, and the moe agreed on a new provincial allocation policy that determines the share fo the allowable harvest assigned to each residency group. The policy was negotiated over a 2 1/2 period.
The new policy guarantees resident hunters a minimun of 60% of the annual allowable harvest and a maximum of 80% for all sheep species and sheep hunts in the province. Other species have other percentages. For the most part the policy is in effect now. It was not fully implemented in region 7b for stones. At that time in region 7b the total non resident sheep quota was 137 out of an annual allowable harvest of 181. Full implementation of the policy would have with one swipe of the pen reduced the total quota to 70 rams. when the sheep outfitters in 7b were informed of the new quota levels believe me you could not hear a pin drop in the room. It really hit the fan and from their point of view understandable. When the smoke cleared it was decided that the quotas would be reduced by 20% in 2007 (they were) and a the remainder of the reduction be put into place in 2012. This would allow the outfitters time to adjust to the reality of the new policy. the bcwf was given a letter signed by the minister of enviorment guaranteeing this would happen and that no changes to resident allocation would be made before that time.

Region 6 is another matter. Incredibly the regional bio is has never determined a finite number for the annual allowable harvest. relying instead on the age structure of rams in the harvest. That in itself is not all bad, however, it resulted in the outfitter quotas being raised on a somewhat regular basis until it reached the present level of 140. the annual non resident harvest is 70. I believe that residents take about 25% of the allowable harvest in region 6. The bcwf,moe, and goabc are presently working on a stone sheep harvest strategy that will allow resident hunters to acheive their share of the harvest. It appears that competition from guide outfitters and somewhat restricted access to hunt areas are working against resident hunters in region 6 and hopefully those issues will be resoved in the not too distant future. As a first step the moe has for the past two winters carried out sheep inventory flights which should result in an established annual allowable harvest. Once that is determined the real fun will begin. I firmly believe that every resident hunter should belong to the bcwf so their voices can be heard in matters such as this. I am convinced if it were not for the efforts of the bcwf resident stone sheep would have been put on limited entry years ago with more that 50% of the allowable harvest going to non residents. I know some of us think belonging to any organization is a pain. I believe it is necessary. good hunting

[boxhitch]

There should be no changes needed for the sake of concervation. There may be changes aimed at allowing the Resident hunter to attain their quota numbers.
Again, the harvest numbers in general have nothing to do with the current lower population numbeers. Except in maybe a few pocket herds.


Bridger, with the access to these stats you've been showing, I'd assume you've got a line to info or "going's on" at higher levels or some of the decision makers. Have you any info/ discussions of changes to stone sheep hunting?
Thanks for your effort. It is nice to hear of this, and see what other hunter's think, heated or not!

[timberline]

I just followed this thread to the end and would like to thankthose who give their time and knowledge of sheep and the wondrous habitat that exists in 7b. Esp thanks to guys like Bridger, Sheriff,River Boat guy(misp). your historical knowledge of this country, the outfitters, and your ability to provide us with harvest stats are of great interest to me. of I have limited history in this area but have hunted successfully for sheep in 4, 6(dall), and 7b. I consider it my no.1 favorite. I think that Stone's sheep is the most beautiful animal I have ever hunted. The contrasting dark and light makes me think of african antelope(never been) and the northern rockies are bar none the best country I know. The biggest ram I've ever seen, late Sept was on the back side of a fairly low timbered ridge above the Alaska Hwy and I would watch that ridge all day and see him in small openings off and on thru the day total maybe an hour. 180 plus ram his pal was a very good full curl ram maybe 155-160 looked small beside him. Spent a week trying to get this guy went away came back for end of season leaves were gone and never saw him again. This was back aways 96. A client once told me that his stone sheep outfitter had a unique method of determining which of the new guys was going to make a sheep guide. That was the one who came back from guiding moose hunters in the brush and talked about the sheep sign they had seen. Ever watch those rams disappear into the tall willows, I think they grow big horns. By the way never saw a wolf track 7/54 in 96. Hunted there again 01 and surely did, also saw far fewer sheep. If we are truly sheep hunters we know its about a lot more than killing a ram and that is how it should be. No other subject thread seems to draw the heat the passion that this does. Thanks for the input

[PGK]

OK I haven't been following this as closely as most. I see two things.
Harvest is down overall?
Numbers are down overall?

These two are suspected to be independent of each other

Harvest could be down for any given number of reasons, which don't really matter to me.

Sheep numbers coming down interests me. In an area where no large scale landscape changes have occurred, why are numbers declining?
Competition from Elk and Bison?
Predation? <-- easy to blame but I do not suspect it as the major cause.
Disease?
Environmental change? Eg: Shortages of water/forage/mineral licks

Let's hear some opinions

[bridger]

OK I haven't been following this as closely as most. I see two things.
Harvest is down overall?
Numbers are down overall?

These two are suspected to be independent of each other

Harvest could be down for any given number of reasons, which don't really matter to me.

Sheep numbers coming down interests me. In an area where no large scale landscape changes have occurred, why are numbers declining?
Competition from Elk and Bison?
Predation? <-- easy to blame but I do not suspect it as the major cause.
Disease?
Environmental change? Eg: Shortages of water/forage/mineral licks

Let's hear some opinions

if you lived here and spent much time in the mountains and knew the relationship and history of both private predator management and the government programs and the swing in sheep and other ungulate populations the picture would be more clear to you. for certain there are other factors also influencing sheep populations but predators are a major factor. Just as a matter of common interest in the early1980's local moe bios did a multi year study on the effects of wolf predation on two similiar sized caribou herds. they removed most o fthe wolves by aerial gunning in one area and left the wolves untouched in the other study area. at the end of the study the wolf free zone had about 60% more caribou. wolves are not the only predators affecting sheep in the northeast bear, coyote, wolverine, and eagle populations have also exploded. That and an expanding elk population are working against stone sheep. another interesting note; the highest sheep population found the recent moe inventories were found in the trench where moe bios had been capturing and neutering the alpha males. on a final note about predation my family has a hunting cabin on the halfway river and in a 10 day period during the xmas holidays wolves killed two cow elk and one whitetail buck in our field. I am by no means a wolf hater but do have the experience to know that the effects of predation is a serious concern.

[PGK]

No disrespect intended, but you only pointed out one instance where wolves are potentially impacting SHEEP numbers.
The studies I have read about point out caribou elk and beavers as being main staples of wolf diet, not sheep.
Sure, if a sheep makes himself available, a wolf will eat him. But I believe that it's far too easy to blame wolves for a lack of sheep when there are so many other variables that could be compounding each other.

Again, just my view from behind the window!

[Sawbuck]

Any one that has spent any time in the mountains hunting rams will know that they can be found in many habitats at different times of the year - some areas simply do not have the classic alpine bowls so this is not even an option. Timber or bush rams are difficult to spot from the valley bottom or from a cub which tends to add a couple of years to their often short lives. Also if you look closely at the grass under a canopy it will always look greener as it hasn't been fried by the sun or burnt by the frost.