Hunting Arrow's

[SKYLINE]

I'm thinking about making an arrow change during the off season and was wondering what the best finished arrow weight is for hunting in BC. I have read conflicting stories about weight vs. speed and penetration. I am currently shooting a 450 grain arrow @ 260 fps. I am thinking about going to a 400 grain arrow but I know that guys like Cameron Hanes likes a 420 grain arrow. Just wondering what has worked well for others.

[Dirty]

Are you talking about shafts or complete arrows?

[35 Whelen]

Think of your arrows and bullets like this.

A ping pong ball and a golf ball are roughly the same size.

Now take the lightweight ping pong ball and drive it at 1000 fps for arguments sake.....when it hits you it will sting like hell and not do much more than produce a good bruise.

Now take the golf ball and drive it at half the speed...500 fps. When it hits you it is going to drop you to your knees and likely knock you out completely

It's all about the momentum in a projectile...if penetration is what you are after, and in archery, there is no such thing as too much. With both lungs gone, you will recover game quickly and humanely. Heavier arrows will also be quieter out of your bow and the weight has a dampening effect on the string.

Here are some very good articles relating to heavier weight arrows and broadheads.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24

Just something to think about.....

Cheers
Paul

[SKYLINE]

Are you talking about shafts or complete arrows?
Complete arrows.

[Coyote]

heavy penetrates better hands down all other things being equal. You have to decide. Personally I'd go heavier. Also depends what your hunting whether or not you need the extra penetrating power.

'yote

[tomahawk]

IMHO more penetration is better so go as heavy as you can shoot well and out to the max distance your comfortable with.

[Bow Walker]

What are you shooting? Recurve/Longbow, Crossbow, Compound? It makes a difference.

[SKYLINE]

What are you shooting? Recurve/Longbow, Crossbow, Compound? It makes a difference.

Coumpound. Mathews DXT @ 70 lbs.

[Eagle1]

What are you shooting? Recurve/Longbow, Crossbow, Compound? It makes a difference.

Not a longbow/recurve with a 450gr arrow doing 260fps, could be a x-bow but more than likely a compound.
I shoot a 417gr arrow 29 inch draw 60 pds at 295 fps with 80 plus KE. Most newer compounds will make enough KE with 375-425 gr arrow for most any game in B.C.
You could lightin the arrow weight to around 400/415 gr and still get lots of KE{more than any longbow/recurve} and gain 10/15 fps for a little flatter shooting and a little less errour or distance judgeing.

[Bow Walker]

What he said - without the digs about my asking what you're shooting........

[Eagle1]

Your getting 67.56 KE with your set up now.
If you go to a 415 gr arrow and get about 275 fps you will up your KE to 69.7
so you see at the distances we shoot for archery heavier is not always better, as you can see a little lighter arrow makes more KE and is flatter shooting.

[Eagle1]

I'm shooting a PSE X-Force
3-D 300gr 29/60 337 fps
hunting 417gr 29/60 295fps
soon to be a 2009 PSE X-Force GX black.

[Bow Walker]

Coumpound. Mathews DXT @ 70 lbs.
Try some Gold Tip 7595's. You'll like the results and the hit hard.

[Ambush]

Skyline, would it have to retain enough energy to shove a mechanical broadhead through, say, a Stone sheep? :shock:

[Kody94]

I prefer heavier arrows and having to be a little more careful with distance judgement. My hunting arrows weigh 560gr's a penetrate like hell.

KE does not = penetration. I think KE is only meaningful when all else (like arrow weight!) is equal...which it seldom ever is! Momentum is a MUCH better predictor of penetration, IMHO.

Just my 2c,
4ster

[Ddog]

personally i disagree with those that say go heavier, speed is a major factor and with an arrow your speed is everything.
260fps? that seems awfully slow.
i have never had a problem with the spitfire mechanicals opening and blowing clean through shoulder blades, rib bones and on a few quartering away shots cleanly snapping the front leg after hitting ribs.

[jessbennett]

light and fast works for me!!!! never had a problem. ive shot lots of game at 65 pounds with a 325 grain arrow(yes thats 5 grains per pound) and never NOT had a pass through. (yes with mechanicals). speed kills.:wink:. the right shot put in the right place is the important thing. plus having a faster arrow helps alot if yardage estimation is slightly off.

[Onesock]

I don't think the "kind" of bow was the question. Heavier arrows do penetrate better than lighter arrows, with all else being equal as Coyote has stated. If you were to shoot a 100 gr heavier arrow out of your setup you would get more penetration. Whether you need it or not is the other question. I would shoot as heavy an arrow as you deem necessary and still get the trajectory you require. Also as SSSSter has said kinetic energy means very little in the bowhunting world, momentum is the key factor.

[Ron.C]

There was a great discussion on this topic on our International Bowhunter Education course at the Vic fish and game club. We had compound/traditional/crossbow shooter talking about this and how it affected each equipment type. One of the guys on the course who I won't mention his name without permission, was a very seasoned and experienced traditional hunter who's opinions and ideas I respect, brought a study " looked like a book" that had been done on this topic. I'll conatct him and get the link and post it here if I can. This wasn't a couple good o'l boys shooting different arrow/broadhead combinations through plywood but an extensive study on arrow weight, broadhead design on shot into actual muscle/bone.
Before I go any further, I shoot a compound and used to be of the opinion as many are that Kinetic Energy "KE" is KE regardless of the arrow. Example, say and arrow shot at 330fps with a KE of say 70 ftlbs at 20 yards is shot from a compound. Now lets say an arrow is shot at 220 fps with a KE of 70 ftlbs at 20 yards from a traditional bow. Well the KE on both is the same so in theory, both should penetrate the same? This is how is used to think. Now take the arrow weights away" being the compound arrow is much lighter and the traditional arrow is much heavier" and look arrow speed. Compare this to dropping a stone in the water at a height of a foot and dropping the same rock in the water from a height of 5 feet. The 5 foot rock is falling faster but when it hit the water, there is much more resistance and it has to displace the water much faster, hense a bigger splash resulting from a rapid loss of energy. The same theory can be applied to a fast arrow hitting an animal. At some point, you will loose energy alot faster that the slower arrow.

The study also concluded that tapered type heads out penetrate other types but are not as tough as Chisel type cut on contact heads are.

I know there will be guys that say, just shoot them in the boiler room and it's all good. But what happens when you hit a rib, or leg bone? It happens. Not on purpose, but it does happen and to those that say it hasn't happened to them, just give it time as sooner or later unfortunitely it will.

I know this is a long winded post, but in the end I changed my thinking. I used to shoot a 370 grain hunting arrow, now I shoot a 440 grain arrow. Does this increase my penetration? I think so. Does it slow my arrow speed? Yes is does, but it also makes it quieter. Does it affect my arrow flight? Yes, I now use weight forward shafts that cater to better broadhead flight.

And in the end if you want to hunt Griz or Moose with your bow, I would want as much penetration as possible as would I want to be using a big tough cut on contact head.

This is all just some food for thought. I'm not looking for any arguments just passing on and interesting discussion. In the archery game, I think we're all better served when keeping an open mind. There is always something new to learn

[Kirby]

For all those guys saying go heavy... momentum over KE... do you actually know the formula for this?

They are the same thing. Its like asking if its better to have measured your hitting power in lbs or Kg... different units same effect.

Kirby

[pupper]

Do the KE calculation for different combinations and see what gives you the most KE. That will be the real test, here is an article on Kinetic Energy (http://www.huntingtipsandtricks.com/a/Kinetic_Energy)

[Onesock]

Kirby- I think you are mistaken. I will find the formula for momentum v/s kinetic energy.

[Kody94]

For all those guys saying go heavy... momentum over KE... do you actually know the formula for this?

They are the same thing. Its like asking if its better to have measured your hitting power in lbs or Kg... different units same effect.

Kirby

Not correct.

Momentum is directly proportional to both mass and velocity. (P=mv)

Kinetic energy is equal to mass multiplied by the square of the velocity. (KE=mv2)

Radically different numbers for the same projectile at the same speed, and the numbers mean two completely different things.

[Onesock]

Ah- here are the formula's for the two.
Kinetic energy=mass X velocity squared
Momentum= mass x velocity
Momentum and Kinetic energy are not the same!!!

[Bowzone_Mikey]

they say the same thing ..just expressed in differant units of measure
a 400 grain arrow going 300 fps will have X amount of KE constantly
the same 400 grain arrow doing 300 fps will have X amount of momentum
with differant units of measure you all are comparing apples to oranges ...

what ya'll should be looking is downrange energy retention properties of differant arrow construction

[willyqbc]

Speaking for myself I go with a lighter faster arrow and I will tell you why.

For the vast majority of modern compound shooters, regardless of what you choose to shoot for an arrow you will have way more ooomph than you need. The exception to this might be someone shooting very low poundage/short draw length...for example a lady or youth who is shooting the minimum 40#'s would need to be more careful with their arrow/broadhead choice. That being said I know of a lady who was shooting around 45#'s, shorter draw length (26" I think) and what would be considered a light arrow (350grns if I recall), broadhead was a montec. I don't recall her speed but I would be surprised if it was more than 220 FPS. Anyway she one day shot a deer at 32 yds slight quartering away....broke a rib on the way in and punched through the shoulder blade on the other side....full pass through.
My point is simple, I feel with the modern compound bow we have more than enough oooomph, so I choose to improve my trajectory with a faster set-up. I think a lot of horror stories about poor penetration have much more to do with poor choice in broadheads or poor arrow flight....it's just easier to blame arrow weight.
I do mostly still hunting in the timber and the tighter trajectory allows me to shoot through smaller holes than with a rainbow trajectory. I have had a a flat trajectory help me be successful many more times than I ever needed more penetration.

Just my opinion
Chris

[Kody94]

they say the same thing ..just expressed in differant units of measure
a 400 grain arrow going 300 fps will have X amount of KE constantly
the same 400 grain arrow doing 300 fps will have X amount of momentum
with differant units of measure you all are comparing apples to oranges ...

what ya'll should be looking is downrange energy retention properties of differant arrow construction

That is not really true. The numbers on their own are meaningless to most of us. They are only really useful for comparison. If you are comparing the same arrow at different speeds, or different arrows at the same speed, or both, using KE will result in different perceptions than momentum.

Look at downrange momentum properties of different arrow constructions, and I will agree with you. :)

Retained KE puts way more emphasis on velocity and is not a good predictor of penetration.

[SKYLINE]

they say the same thing ..just expressed in differant units of measure
a 400 grain arrow going 300 fps will have X amount of KE constantly
the same 400 grain arrow doing 300 fps will have X amount of momentum
with differant units of measure you all are comparing apples to oranges ...

what ya'll should be looking is downrange energy retention properties of differant arrow construction


I think that the downrange energy is what I'm most confused about. Are there any arrow construction comparisons that you could share? Thanks.

[Kody94]

My point is simple, I feel with the modern compound bow we have more than enough oooomph, so I choose to improve my trajectory with a faster set-up. I think a lot of horror stories about poor penetration have much more to do with poor choice in broadheads or poor arrow flight....it's just easier to blame arrow weight.
I do mostly still hunting in the timber and the tighter trajectory allows me to shoot through smaller holes than with a rainbow trajectory. I have had a a flat trajectory help me be successful many more times than I ever needed more penetration.

Chris, that is the only rationale for "lighter-faster" that I agree with. I still like "heavy-moderate" better for my tastes (its all relative), but for deer sized critters, modern compounds have it covered across the spectrum. Take it to extremes and thats when reality sets in....big animals, thicker skins and/or or ultralight arrows/bolts.

[ElkMasterC]

To hit your target well, you must first hit your target.

Confused-us


(I dig Chris' rainbow theory, given that you have enough gear for the job, shot placement with a razor sharp broad head is all that matters)

[jessbennett]

I don't think the "kind" of bow was the question. Heavier arrows do penetrate better than lighter arrows, with all else being equal as Coyote has stated. If you were to shoot a 100 gr heavier arrow out of your setup you would get more penetration. Whether you need it or not is the other question. I would shoot as heavy an arrow as you deem necessary and still get the trajectory you require. Also as SSSSter has said kinetic energy means very little in the bowhunting world, momentum is the key factor.


that is a pretty broad statement dont u think???? are you trying to tell me that a 450 grain arrow doing 220 fps is going to penetrate better than a 325 grain arrow doing over 320 fps????

think of it this way, take a ford f150 doing 30 mph hitting a stationary vehicle. then take a ford ranger doing 50 mph and hit the same stationary vehicle. which one is going to cause more damage????

[jrjonesy]

Heavier definitely penetrates better but I agree with Chris' view. Once you have more than enough KE, lighter helps you hit the target by marginally flattening your trajectory. I also agree that a lot of people blame bad penetration on speed/broadheads when its likely their problem may be arrows that aren't flying straight.

Skyline, if you are shooting a DXT at 70lbs you are not shooting at 260 fps unless you have a 22 inch draw length and 1500 grain arrow.:razz:

[Bow Walker]

I'm of the "moderately fast, relatively mid weight" school of thought. I want a speed in excess of 250fps and I also want a totale arrow weight under 400 grains.

I shoot my GT 5575's in camo (a tad heavier than plain black ones) at a weight of 384 grains. They move out at around 260 fps. Of the deer that I've killed - both have been total pass thru's. Granted the longest shot yardage was under 20 yards, but that's the name of the game "Up Close and Personal".

[Onesock]

jessbennett- no I am not saying that. I am saying that a 450 grain arrow going 320 ft/sec will penetrate better than a 325gr arrow going 320 ft/sec. No question. What I am saying is a person has to balance his/her arrow to their bow. No sense shooting a 700 gr arrow if a 400 gr arrow will get the required penetration and better trajectory. This is not a debate on heavy v/s light arrows. It is what will work better out of your hunting rig.
Bowwalker. You hit the nail on the head!!

[tomahawk]

IMHO I'll take a heavy arrow anyday when your pushing a broadhead through thick bear hair or the big chest of a bull moose.

[Kody94]

jessbennett- no I am not saying that. I am saying that a 450 grain arrow going 320 ft/sec will penetrate better than a 325gr arrow going 320 ft/sec. No question. What I am saying is a person has to balance his/her arrow to their bow. No sense shooting a 700 gr arrow if a 400 gr arrow will get the required penetration and better trajectory. This is not a debate on heavy v/s light arrows. It is what will work better out of your hunting rig.
Bowwalker. You hit the nail on the head!!

To be clear for everybody, what I am saying is that "all else being equal" (ie. same broadhead, same shaft thickness, surface and spine, etc), for two arrows with the same KE but different weights and velocities, the one with the higher momentum will penetrate further.

eg. if you compare a 360 gr arrow at 310 fps (=76.8 ft-lbs) with a 425 gr arrow at 285 fps (=76.65 ft-lbs), the heavier arrow will penetrate further due to its greater momentum, if all else is equal.

As always, JMHO,
4Ster

[SKYLINE]

Heavier definitely penetrates better but I agree with Chris' view. Once you have more than enough KE, lighter helps you hit the target by marginally flattening your trajectory. I also agree that a lot of people blame bad penetration on speed/broadheads when its likely their problem may be arrows that aren't flying straight.

Skyline, if you are shooting a DXT at 70lbs you are not shooting at 260 fps unless you have a 22 inch draw length and 1500 grain arrow.:razz:


jrjonesy- I have a 28" draw and have shot my arrows through two different chrongraphs and both showed speeds between 260 and 268 fps. with a 450 grain arrow. Just checked and my draw weight and it is at 68 lbs.

[Coyote]

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24

This is the link that RonC was referring to several posts ago.
The purpose of the study was to test the lethality (including limits of penetration)of various arrow configurations. It does that quite well.

There are many many things affecting lethality. Most of us on this site have no idea what they are. All our info has come from manufacturers, gut feel and anecdotal info. None of it comes close to the work this guy has done over decades of experimentation.

An example. KE does not equal penetration. KE is spent in the following ways.
arrow speed
arrow rotation
energy expended by the arrow falling(gravity)
arrow noise
arrow vibration
heat due to friction (miniscule)
friction in the animal tissue
work done to push aside tissue
efficiency of the broadhead
durability of the broadhead
weight distribution in the arrow
etc

With so many variables KE is not a reliable indicator. He proves it in the study along with many other items.

The setup you have may be perfectly adequate. But I guarantee it could be better.

As bowhunters I believe we owe it to ourselves and the animals we hunt to be as well informed as possible. Although this study is not perfect it is by far the best I have seen in 45 years of bowhunting.

It is not a short read. It takes an open mind and considerable thought. The study does not tell us what equipment to use. What it does is leave us much better informed than we were before reading it and much more able to make inforemed decisions.

Be prepared to have your ideas challenged and tested. No matter what, you will know far more about arrow lethality after you have read it than before.

'yote

[jrjonesy]

jrjonesy- I have a 28" draw and have shot my arrows through two different chrongraphs and both showed speeds between 260 and 268 fps. with a 450 grain arrow. Just checked and my draw weight and it is at 68 lbs.

Wow, originally I just thought you were estimating your arrow speed. Your getting what your getting, it just seemed slower than I thought it would be to me because I'm shooting a Drenalin (67 lbs) at 28 inches with a 395 grain arrow and getting between 284 and 288. I chrono'd (different chrono) a previous set up a couple of years ago that was shooting the same weight arrow (approx) at 250 fps (PSE set at 64 lbs). No offence was meant. I'm not familiar with the effect each additional grain has on arrow speed but I wonder if that 55 extra grains is making that big difference or if some reason your not getting the speed you should out of your DXT. That's a great bow and I've seen a lot of results (unknown arrow weights) with much higher arrow speeds.

[SKYLINE]

Wow, originally I just thought you were estimating your arrow speed. Your getting what your getting, it just seemed slower than I thought it would be to me because I'm shooting a Drenalin (67 lbs) at 28 inches with a 395 grain arrow and getting between 284 and 288. I chrono'd (different chrono) a previous set up a couple of years ago that was shooting the same weight arrow (approx) at 250 fps (PSE set at 64 lbs). No offence was meant. I'm not familiar with the effect each additional grain has on arrow speed but I wonder if that 55 extra grains is making that big difference or if some reason your not getting the speed you should out of your DXT. That's a great bow and I've seen a lot of results (unknown arrow weights) with much higher arrow speeds.


No offence taken, I was a little surprised/disappointed with the speed as well. With my new arrows, I hope to be around 285 fps as well. :razz:

[jessbennett]

Wow, originally I just thought you were estimating your arrow speed. Your getting what your getting, it just seemed slower than I thought it would be to me because I'm shooting a Drenalin (67 lbs) at 28 inches with a 395 grain arrow and getting between 284 and 288. I chrono'd (different chrono) a previous set up a couple of years ago that was shooting the same weight arrow (approx) at 250 fps (PSE set at 64 lbs). No offence was meant. I'm not familiar with the effect each additional grain has on arrow speed but I wonder if that 55 extra grains is making that big difference or if some reason your not getting the speed you should out of your DXT. That's a great bow and I've seen a lot of results (unknown arrow weights) with much higher arrow speeds.


for every 5 grains you shed, it should be roughly 1 fps faster.