wokkpash lake for sheep question

[Kitimat Killer]

hey guys thinking of going to that lake for sheep my question is it worth flying in or should i just walk in off the highway just some info im after you can pm me if you like
thanks

kk

[bridger]

I would re think going in there after a ram. the sheep numbers in that area have really dropped in the last few years for a variety of reasons. a friend of mine that guided in that area for 15 years quit guiding in that area due to a lack of rams. his last year (3 yrs ago) he spent 45 days in that watershed and never got a ram. try walking in off the highway from the gravel pit at mile 410. there is a good horsetrail there. some friends of mine have gotten some nice rams the last couple of years. good luck

[Bighorn hunter]

What time of year are you going?Maybe you'll bump into a bunch of other HBCers:mrgreen:

[ultramagbob]

LOL
Gong show

[BCrams]

LOL
Gong show

You think :wink:

[HD95]

I flew in there a year ago last September.It was festooned with wolf sign.We found carcasses of moose and caribou.We did manage to take a ram.It was so good we used our sat phone to get Urs to grab us early,something I couldn't have imagined doing.Pm for more detail if you're really keen on going there.Bob.

[budismyhorse]

KK, after a bit of research, you'll find there are better places to hunt

[uraarchr]

there was a post earlier about a truck crossing racing river.(enviornmental damage)some people were upset.anyways,from that point i believe its about a 11km hike to the lake.not too hard of a hike.beautiful hike.the hoodoos are awesome.we didnt see any sheep or anything else but the country was nice. that was over 10 yrs ago.the float plane sounds better if you can afford it. that way you hve lots of energy to hunt.

[Dirty]

When I was in there hunting with my uncle 2 Years ago we saw a band of 12 rams. There were 4 full curls, that were between 34-37" type. Not what we were looking for so we let them walk. They were young rams still. Mind you this was a late season hunt and there wasn't anybody else in there besides a guy on a solo trip.

[proguide66]

Quick note for all......( no 'bs' either)....total count for resident hunters through our guide camp on that side was 43 last season!!:shock:.......you wont be alone!!...lol...

[BCrams]

Quick note for all......( no 'bs' either)....total count for resident hunters through our guide camp on that side was 43 last season!!:shock:.......you wont be alone!!...lol...

Why is a reputable guide outfitter situating a guide camp as such for high paying clients to witness the numbers of residents walzing through as you state?

Is this for the Wokpash or up the Racing River?

[Kitimat Killer]

thanks guys im just heard about the area from a good friend so i thought i would ask dose not hert to ask on this sight thats for sure i see there is a bunch of trials off the highway that im looking at thanks for all your info guys

kk

[proguide66]

Why is a reputable guide outfitter situating a guide camp as such for high paying clients to witness the numbers of residents walzing through as you state?

Is this for the Wokpash or up the Racing River?



Sadly we dont have a choice.The Alcan splits right through the middle of our sheep area....as we all know , jumpin in off the Alaska Highway is the easiest access to a stone hunt.....#'s were for the Wokpash.......the racing is another total all together.Our donated hunt to the Wild Sheep Society ran into 17 different hunters on the north side:shock:..they came in the SAME DRAINAGE !!...again , have no ckoice...just the way it is in that country...as a guide , at least we get to keep on gaining knowledge every day / for months each season...wich gives us a bit of a lead in being successful...
Both sides of the highway between Steamboat and Liard get HAMMERED every fall....from 1 mile off the road to 30...

Take note : I wish for ALL hunters to be able to experience harvesting a ram as well all other game species!!.....

If it were me and I was going in that area for a ram , I would suggest go as late as possible....its DAMNED cold and uncomfortable....not many guy's want to do that...the rams are getting kinda ' rutty'...capes are thick...and the 'sly' ones are more likely to 'slip up' then...Just imagine the knowledge the sheep are acquiring EVERY Aug...they watch ' herds' of humans crawling into those green slopes like clock work...after 7 to 12 yrs of watching that each = some pretty wise animals.

good luck to all !!:smile:

[BCrams]

Sadly we dont have a choice.The Alcan splits right through the middle of our sheep area....as we all know , jumpin in off the Alaska Highway is the easiest access to a stone hunt.....#'s were for the Wokpash.......

I call your hand on this one and call BS for the Wokpash with the numbers of hunters. I have never seen another hunter back in there when working and hunting.

Definatly some easy access and at times the highway areas get busy in certain areas but no where near the numbers you post up.....

Why didn't SMS take the auction winner somewhere else rather than to where residents hunt .... lots of places to take him/her that are void of residents. Probably something the next auction bidder might want to consider rather than go on a 'ride about' in a high pressure area.

again , have no ckoice...just the way it is in that country...as a guide , at least we get to keep on gaining knowledge every day / for months each season...wich gives us a bit of a lead in being successful...

Always a choice. I know of many spots off the highway a guide can take a hunter into in SMS area and you'll never see a resident.

Both sides of the highway between Steamboat and Liard get HAMMERED every fall....from 1 mile off the road to 30...

I disagree. Some specific spots perhaps fluctuate with numbers of hunters that vary year to year but lots of places to hit that never get hammered ...... including spots the Weins routinely took rams out of year after year.

Take note : I wish for ALL hunters to be able to experience harvesting a ram as well all other game species!!.....

Ditto!

If it were me and I was going in that area for a ram , I would suggest go as late as possible....its DAMNED cold and uncomfortable....not many guy's want to do that...the rams are getting kinda ' rutty'...capes are thick...and the 'sly' ones are more likely to 'slip up' then...Just imagine the knowledge the sheep are acquiring EVERY Aug...they watch ' herds' of humans crawling into those green slopes like clock work...after 7 to 12 yrs of watching that each = some pretty wise animals.

Good advice regarding later in the year!! I agree the hunting just gets even better for rams!!!



..............

[BCrams]

...as a guide , at least we get to keep on gaining knowledge every day / for months each season...wich gives us a bit of a lead in being successful...


Didn't Weins and his guides pass on all the ram hotspots to the new owner and guides (like you?).......there definatly is a history of hunting pressure off the Alaska Highway and I am sure rams have already developed patterns of where they go etc when the pressure is on or not on.

[bigwhiteys]

As far as pressure goes there is always light to moderate pressure along the highway corridor and in some spots it's a little more concentrated then others but not even remotely an issue if you've got a few drainages you know there is sheep in and there might not always be a trail!

Carl

[leadpillproductions]

i was in there early sept water was low there was so many trucks in there it was stupid we loaded up went some place else i would re think if your fliying go were trucks and quads cant

[proguide66]

Didn't Weins and his guides pass on all the ram hotspots to the new owner and guides (like you?).......there definatly is a history of hunting pressure off the Alaska Highway and I am sure rams have already developed patterns of where they go etc when the pressure is on or not on.
I worked for Weins for yrs before Leiff bought it and have done a couple for Leiff.. ..If you feel you have the knowledge of the area you would KNOW I'm NOT bs'ing on the #'s.and would eagerly invite you to jump on board and guide some hunts!!:-D

Take note , I most deffinitely dont join the ever so present ' pissing contest' on here when it comes to sheep...I am offereing the original question above some freindly advice( not many sheep guides in the area would).
There are some long time SMS guides who , like I said , have the 'step up' when it comes to knowledge....this is why we/they still get- their /our hunters rams....and YES...over 40 hunters came through each 3 of our south highway camps last fall....I guess it would sound like BS , or expect a 'pissy' guide to write that on here for a possible ' de tour'.....but sadly its true( again , doesnt matter if anyone believes me , its still going to go on and on).....if you have the time , hang at the trail head for a few months ( like we do)with a calculator on hand!!..lol....as far as the ' secret ram spots' go....like I said previous.....we get to gain the knowledge EACH season for MONTHS each season......and as well HAVE to learn how to be successful while hunting under HUGE resident pressure EVERY season....as far as finding those ' untouched' spots...there really isnt much un touched dirt left in our area!!.....just be the lucky one to be there first at the right time!!

cheers and good luck to all!:-D

[BCrams]

I worked for Weins for yrs before Leiff bought it and have done a couple for Leiff.. ..If you feel you have the knowledge of the area you would KNOW I'm NOT bs'ing on the #'s.and would eagerly invite you to jump on board and guide some hunts!!:-D

I'm known to be wrong on more than a few occassions and I don't know the area at all like you do.

With my unsuccessful track record......I'm the last person who should guide a hunt :-?

I am offereing the original question above some freindly advice( not many sheep guides in the area would).

You definatly know what you're talking about.

YES...over 40 hunters came through each 3 of our south highway camps last fall....

crazy

.....if you have the time , hang at the trail head for a few months ( like we do)with a calculator on hand!!..lol....

Perhaps in another lifetime.

...there really isnt much un touched dirt left in our area!!.....just be the lucky one to be there first at the right time!!

Pretty much true for any area in BC.



proguide offers up sound advice to any prospective sheep hunters out there!

[boxhitch]

The facts are that SMS still take hunts into that area, clients are successful to a certain extent I would hope, and residents have a success rate also, enough to keep the rumours alive and the pressure on.
I seem to recall a thread from a late season hunt last year with a couple of snowy rams ?

[willy442]

I worked for Weins for yrs before Leiff bought it and have done a couple for Leiff.. ..If you feel you have the knowledge of the area you would KNOW I'm NOT bs'ing on the #'s.and would eagerly invite you to jump on board and guide some hunts!!:-D

Take note , I most deffinitely dont join the ever so present ' pissing contest' on here when it comes to sheep...I am offereing the original question above some freindly advice( not many sheep guides in the area would).
There are some long time SMS guides who , like I said , have the 'step up' when it comes to knowledge....this is why we/they still get- their /our hunters rams....and YES...over 40 hunters came through each 3 of our south highway camps last fall....I guess it would sound like BS , or expect a 'pissy' guide to write that on here for a possible ' de tour'.....but sadly its true( again , doesnt matter if anyone believes me , its still going to go on and on).....if you have the time , hang at the trail head for a few months ( like we do)with a calculator on hand!!..lol....as far as the ' secret ram spots' go....like I said previous.....we get to gain the knowledge EACH season for MONTHS each season......and as well HAVE to learn how to be successful while hunting under HUGE resident pressure EVERY season....as far as finding those ' untouched' spots...there really isnt much un touched dirt left in our area!!.....just be the lucky one to be there first at the right time!!

cheers and good luck to all!:-D

Much the same in the area's around Muncho. Time for LEH along the hwy.

[boxhitch]

Time for LEH along the hwy.Why ?? Have the specific success rates changed ? Are there no sheep left ? Maybe the hunter numbers are up, thus a reduced ratio ??
MOE must be happy with the population numbers, they didn't even count 7-52 in the last survey.

[Kitimat Killer]

i've hunted sheep where there is lots of ppl and know what its like you get there really earlly and hope to shoot one the first couple of days of the season or go really late in the year when the sheep rellax a bit more im thinking about going to region 7 this year cuz i've never hunting in that region and im greatfull for all your guys advice thanks

kk

[Dirty]

Are you looking for a trophy ram or any ram? You have already put down a Stone (previous posts), so what is it you desire. I like the hunt, but for some people it is about killing legal sheep at every opportunity they can. What is it you desire, legal or trophy?

[Kitimat Killer]

im looking for a trophy but im taking up a good friend who has not shot one so he gets first crack at a ram so if i can find him a legal ram it's good for him but me im holding off for a good one

[bridger]

just as a matter of interest that area has consistently been one of the top three areas for resident stone sheep harvest for the last 25 yrs so when pro guide 66 says there are lots of resident hunters in there he is telling true. still the odd good ram tho.

[bigwhiteys]

KK don't get discouraged from going into that area... Last september first week, there wasn't a single vehicle parked at the trail head already mentioned. Likely the outfitter had dropped off a packstring already. Very little sign of residents backpacking along the highway period those first 10 days.

People talk about all the pressure an area receives and then when you actually stand there on the ground, looking up at these mountains and drainages and how big they really are... Guides don't find all the rams, (not even in their pre-season scouting) and Residents certainly don't find them all either.

If you're hiking in take a drive from Summit Lake all the way past Muncho Lake. Look to your left and look to your right... It's ALL sheep country... If the first mountain you climb doesn't have sheep on it you'll be able to see one that does! :)

Carl

[Kitimat Killer]

KK don't get discouraged from going into that area... Last september first week, there wasn't a single vehicle parked at the trail head already mentioned. Likely the outfitter had dropped off a packstring already. Very little sign of residents backpacking along the highway period those first 10 days.

People talk about all the pressure an area receives and then when you actually stand there on the ground, looking up at these mountains and drainages and how big they really are... Guides don't find all the rams, (not even in their pre-season scouting) and Residents certainly don't find them all either.

If you're hiking in take a drive from Summit Lake all the way past Muncho Lake. Look to your left and look to your right... It's ALL sheep country... If the first mountain you climb doesn't have sheep on it you'll be able to see one that does! :)

Carl

thanks for the info Carl im going to give it a try like i said it's my partners turn and it will be his second sheep hunt and messed up after i sent him in last year to my spot he went with a buddy that said he new lots about sheep so on the second day they found a small band of rams the guy said they were not legal but after seing the pics of the rams there were two legal rams in the bunch of 4 rams so he was choked when i said they were legal one was a heavy old broomed ram and the other was full curl so this year i want to work hard to get him a ram thanks for all your info and every body ells on this sight

Ricardo

[Stone Sheep Steve]

KK don't get discouraged from going into that area... Last september first week, there wasn't a single vehicle parked at the trail head already mentioned. Likely the outfitter had dropped off a packstring already. Very little sign of residents backpacking along the highway period those first 10 days.

People talk about all the pressure an area receives and then when you actually stand there on the ground, looking up at these mountains and drainages and how big they really are... Guides don't find all the rams, (not even in their pre-season scouting) and Residents certainly don't find them all either.

If you're hiking in take a drive from Summit Lake all the way past Muncho Lake. Look to your left and look to your right... It's ALL sheep country... If the first mountain you climb doesn't have sheep on it you'll be able to see one that does! :)

Carl

Good stuff!

Let's hope you don't have to wait for an LEH to go chase sheep in your family's historic area:???:....or anywhere else along the hwy. That would be a sad day.

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

Let's hope you don't have to wait for an LEH to go chase sheep in your family's historic area:???:....or anywhere else along the hwy.

With my current success rate I am better off with just a Camera anyways... Areas such as what proguide have mentioned probably should be on an LEH. Sounds like a gong show, I've certainly never seen that kind of pressure.

Carl

[boxhitch]

Areas such as what proguide have mentioned probably should be on an LEH.
Again I ask, what good would LEH do ? There are sheep there and always will be. We don't need onerous rules to tell hunters how to spread out effort at the expense of freedom of choice. LEH would only benefit the G/O's.

[6616]

Again I ask, what good would LEH do ? There are sheep there and always will be. We don't need onerous rules to tell hunters how to spread out effort at the expense of freedom of choice. LEH would only benefit the G/O's.

The fact that 43 hunters went up the same trail last year is not justification for LEH nor is over-crowding under any circumstances, unless it is excessive and it creates a conservation concern. 43 hunters is not excessive over-crowding, if you think it is, compare it to elk hunting in the East Koots and there's no consideration for LEH there.

The only justification for LEH is if there is a legitimate conservation concern for the sheep. Even if the trophy rams are cleaned out and there remains little opportunity for finding a trophy ram does not mean there is a conservation concern. Seven year old rams can breed just as successfully as nine year old rams. We're not supposed to be managing for trophy potential, just to make sure the sheep populatiuon remains viable, and viability does not require trophy rams.

Let the boys alone to have their hunts without unecessary over-regulation.

[elkdom]

they are out there,,,,,all together 3 like this and a 7/8 curl, 4 rams, second day of season, and about 15 hunters, resident and non-resident,in view if you checked around the surrounding drainages with a spotting scope,but,,,:shock:

[NaStY]

Sounds like it could be a great trip

[bridger]

leh should be the absolute last option and only applied when all else fails. also remember that normally at least 50% of the stone sheep harvest goes to non residents.

[GoatGuy]

Again I ask, what good would LEH do ? There are sheep there and always will be. We don't need onerous rules to tell hunters how to spread out effort at the expense of freedom of choice. LEH would only benefit the G/O's.


There have been several witches seen in that area.

[willy442]

The fact that 43 hunters went up the same trail last year is not justification for LEH nor is over-crowding under any circumstances, unless it is excessive and it creates a conservation concern. 43 hunters is not excessive over-crowding, if you think it is, compare it to elk hunting in the East Koots and there's no consideration for LEH there.

The only justification for LEH is if there is a legitimate conservation concern for the sheep. Even if the trophy rams are cleaned out and there remains little opportunity for finding a trophy ram does not mean there is a conservation concern. Seven year old rams can breed just as successfully as nine year old rams. We're not supposed to be managing for trophy potential, just to make sure the sheep populatiuon remains viable, and viability does not require trophy rams.

Let the boys alone to have their hunts without unecessary over-regulation.

43 people in elk, moose or deer country is not alot, I agree. Put 43 people on a sheep mountain or valley and thats a ridicoulus amount. You say that we are not supposed to manage for trophy potential, correct me if I'm wrong but when did people start hunting sheep for the meat only. I have yet to meet anyone that wasn't hunting horns if carring a sheep tag. Seven year old rams will have a hell of a time breeding if they keep getting shot and nine year olds will be non existant. The truth of the matter is by the time the resident hunter realizes accessable areas should be LEH, it will be to damn late and the amount of leh permits will be almost non existant. Then the real crying will start.
The statement that LEH will only benefit the GO's is absolutely ******ed. The GO's are already under a quota and will stand to loose permits if LEH is implementent. The bottom line is less permits to the GO's and a bigger dollar for the ones they have. I fail to see what is wrong with this. The up side for the resident is a better quality ram in the long run. I also fail to see what is wrong with this.
Maybe if LEH is such a bad thing we should go back to one in three, or something similar and also try and prevent the continual killing of our young rams. These are only trophy caliber to a trigger happy hunter that has free and open access to one of the worlds premium trophy animals. Is this right?

You say over regulation! Think about other areas and then tell me if the BC resident is even close to over regulation. On the path we are going it will come though.

[willy442]

they are out there,,,,,all together 3 like this and a 7/8 curl, 4 rams, second day of season, and about 15 hunters, resident and non-resident,in view if you checked around the surrounding drainages with a spotting scope,but,,,:shock:

Don't count the nonresident, due to restriction the GO's are penalized for taking Rams like the one in your post.

[bridger]

Don't count the nonresident, due to restriction the GO's are penalized for taking Rams like the one in your post.

pointof interest !! guide outfitters are no longer penalized for shooting under age sheep

[bridger]

43 people in elk, moose or deer country is not alot, I agree. Put 43 people on a sheep mountain or valley and thats a ridicoulus amount. You say that we are not supposed to manage for trophy potential, correct me if I'm wrong but when did people start hunting sheep for the meat only. I have yet to meet anyone that wasn't hunting horns if carring a sheep tag. Seven year old rams will have a hell of a time breeding if they keep getting shot and nine year olds will be non existant. The truth of the matter is by the time the resident hunter realizes accessable areas should be LEH, it will be to damn late and the amount of leh permits will be almost non existant. Then the real crying will start.
The statement that LEH will only benefit the GO's is absolutely ******ed. The GO's are already under a quota and will stand to loose permits if LEH is implementent. The bottom line is less permits to the GO's and a bigger dollar for the ones they have. I fail to see what is wrong with this. The up side for the resident is a better quality ram in the long run. I also fail to see what is wrong with this.
Maybe if LEH is such a bad thing we should go back to one in three, or something similar and also try and prevent the continual killing of our young rams. These are only trophy caliber to a trigger happy hunter that has free and open access to one of the worlds premium trophy animals. Is this right?

You say over regulation! Think about other areas and then tell me if the BC resident is even close to over regulation. On the path we are going it will come though.


under the new allocation policy there will be no restrictions put on resident sheep hunters until two things happen 1) there is a proven overharvest of the resource and 2) the resident share of the annual harvest exceeds 80%. even then leh will be the last resort. before that other options will include 1) an age restriction ( if you harvest a ram over 8 you can hunt again under 8 yrs you wait three years before going again) a straight one in three no matter what the age

[6616]

43 people in elk, moose or deer country is not alot, I agree. Put 43 people on a sheep mountain or valley and thats a ridicoulus amount. You say that we are not supposed to manage for trophy potential, correct me if I'm wrong but when did people start hunting sheep for the meat only. I have yet to meet anyone that wasn't hunting horns if carring a sheep tag. Seven year old rams will have a hell of a time breeding if they keep getting shot and nine year olds will be non existant. The truth of the matter is by the time the resident hunter realizes accessable areas should be LEH, it will be to damn late and the amount of leh permits will be almost non existant. Then the real crying will start.
The statement that LEH will only benefit the GO's is absolutely ******ed. The GO's are already under a quota and will stand to loose permits if LEH is implementent. The bottom line is less permits to the GO's and a bigger dollar for the ones they have. I fail to see what is wrong with this. The up side for the resident is a better quality ram in the long run. I also fail to see what is wrong with this.
Maybe if LEH is such a bad thing we should go back to one in three, or something similar and also try and prevent the continual killing of our young rams. These are only trophy caliber to a trigger happy hunter that has free and open access to one of the worlds premium trophy animals. Is this right?

You say over regulation! Think about other areas and then tell me if the BC resident is even close to over regulation. On the path we are going it will come though.

It would appear to me that the horn regulation and subsequent age limitations on ram harvest does an adequate job of addressing conservation concerns.

[GoatGuy]

You say that we are not supposed to manage for trophy potential, correct me if I'm wrong but when did people start hunting sheep for the meat only. I have yet to meet anyone that wasn't hunting horns if carring a sheep tag.

According to the old manager in 6 there used to be quite a few residents of 6 who hunted sheep for meat. Of course that changed with the regs.

You're concept of a trophy is likely far different from most resident hunters - resident hunters shouldn't be managed for what you think is a trophy.

You also think LEH is used for messy camps and farm equipment being damaged.

You also believe that residents harvest all the sows and nannies - the numbers say otherwise - that has nothing to due with concepts, more to do with facts.



Seven year old rams will have a hell of a time breeding if they keep getting shot and nine year olds will be non existant. The truth of the matter is by the time the resident hunter realizes accessable areas should be LEH, it will be to damn late and the amount of leh permits will be almost non existant. Then the real crying will start.
The statement that LEH will only benefit the GO's is absolutely ******ed. The GO's are already under a quota and will stand to loose permits if LEH is implementent. The bottom line is less permits to the GO's and a bigger dollar for the ones they have. I fail to see what is wrong with this. The up side for the resident is a better quality ram in the long run. I also fail to see what is wrong with this.
Maybe if LEH is such a bad thing we should go back to one in three, or something similar and also try and prevent the continual killing of our young rams. These are only trophy caliber to a trigger happy hunter that has free and open access to one of the worlds premium trophy animals. Is this right?

You say over regulation! Think about other areas and then tell me if the BC resident is even close to over regulation. On the path we are going it will come though.

Better quality ram? Better quality hunt?

Who are you to judge what a quality ram is to a resident hunter?

If resident hunters wanted a 'better quality ram' or a 'better quality hunt' they wouldn't be hunting off the highway. They wouldn't be shooting 7yr olds if they wanted a better quality ram. They'd be flying/hiking/horsing into remote areas without other hunters if they wanted the experience you think they want.

But guess what? They don't.


Hunters want to be able to hunt and harvest sheep.


So long as there's enough class IIV and IV sperm that hits the rut then we won't worry about what Willy thinks everyone else should be shooting.


If there is a conservation concern it can be addressed.



When there's an issue 1 in 2 regs for under 8 could easily be implemented keeping in mind that residents need to meet their share of the AAH, not the 23% res 77% non-res split that was in place during your time.



For now we'll talk about conservation.



Leave the barnyard conversation for your fenced hunts.

[boxhitch]

The statement that LEH will only benefit the GO's is absolutely ******ed. The GO's are already under a quota and will stand to loose permits if LEH is implementent. The bottom line is less permits to the GO's and a bigger dollar for the ones they have. I fail to see what is wrong with this. .The original comment was that maybe there should be LEH along the highway. Creation of a highway corridor that restricts the number of resident hunters will do nothing but change the hunting locations. The G/O will still have his quota, uneffected because the LEH doesn't cover his entire territory probably. He will still hunt the corridor, now with less traffic. The number of old large sheep should increase, which yes will be a benefit to the few resident large- trophy hunters that may get the LEH permits. The G/O will continue to hunt these 'better' trophies also.

Now if you protracted the comment to include all of 7-52, that is ******ed !!

[bridger]

The original comment was that maybe there should be LEH along the highway. Creation of a highway corridor that restricts the number of resident hunters will do nothing but change the hunting locations. The G/O will still have his quota, uneffected because the LEH doesn't cover his entire territory probably. He will still hunt the corridor, now with less traffic. The number of old large sheep should increase, which yes will be a benefit to the few resident large- trophy hunters that may get the LEH permits. The G/O will continue to hunt these 'better' trophies also.

Now if you protracted the comment to include all of 7-52, that is ******ed !!
boxhitch you seem to have a very good understanding how leh would affect resident hunters in this instance you are right on in my opinion. i have never seen a quide give up any sheep quota voluntarily. bridger

[willy442]

[quote=GoatGuy;387987]According to the old manager in 6 there used to be quite a few residents of 6 who hunted sheep for meat. Of course that changed with the regs.

You're concept of a trophy is likely far different from most resident hunters - resident hunters shouldn't be managed for what you think is a trophy.

You also think LEH is used for messy camps and farm equipment being damaged.

You also believe that residents harvest all the sows and nannies - the numbers say otherwise - that has nothing to due with concepts, more to do with facts.



Better quality ram? Better quality hunt?

Who are you to judge what a quality ram is to a resident hunter?

If resident hunters wanted a 'better quality ram' or a 'better quality hunt' they wouldn't be hunting off the highway. They wouldn't be shooting 7yr olds if they wanted a better quality ram. They'd be flying/hiking/horsing into remote areas without other hunters if they wanted the experience you think they want.

But guess what? They don't.


Hunters want to be able to hunt and harvest sheep.


So long as there's enough class IIV and IV sperm that hits the rut then we won't worry about what Willy thinks everyone else should be shooting.


If there is a conservation concern it can be addressed.



When there's an issue 1 in 2 regs for under 8 could easily be implemented keeping in mind that residents need to meet their share of the AAH, not the 23% res 77% non-res split that was in place during your time.



For now we'll talk about conservation.



Leave the barnyard conversation for your fenced hunts.



Cutting and Pasteing your own stuff now! Thats amazing. If you could only spend some time in the woods now, you could have something real to write about.

[GoatGuy]

The original comment was that maybe there should be LEH along the highway. Creation of a highway corridor that restricts the number of resident hunters will do nothing but change the hunting locations. The G/O will still have his quota, uneffected because the LEH doesn't cover his entire territory probably. He will still hunt the corridor, now with less traffic. The number of old large sheep should increase, which yes will be a benefit to the few resident large- trophy hunters that may get the LEH permits. The G/O will continue to hunt these 'better' trophies also.

Now if you protracted the comment to include all of 7-52, that is ******ed !!

No need to look any farther than Spatsizi - we've already got our real life example.

[GoatGuy]

Cutting and Pasteing your own stuff now! Thats amazing. If you could only spend some time in the woods now, you could have something real to write about.

Willy, I got about 8 weeks of hunting in last year.


Not bad for a working stiff.:biggrin:


Just because I don't brag about it on the intraweb or send pictures out doesn't mean I'm not hunting. :wink:

[willy442]

The original comment was that maybe there should be LEH along the highway. Creation of a highway corridor that restricts the number of resident hunters will do nothing but change the hunting locations. The G/O will still have his quota, uneffected because the LEH doesn't cover his entire territory probably. He will still hunt the corridor, now with less traffic. The number of old large sheep should increase, which yes will be a benefit to the few resident large- trophy hunters that may get the LEH permits. The G/O will continue to hunt these 'better' trophies also.

Now if you protracted the comment to include all of 7-52, that is ******ed !!

The guide would loose in quota and he should. My point is that the quality of trophy and the hunt it's self would be more attractive to both the resident and the non. The guide has a more restricted product to sell and the resident can actually experience the serinity of a Sheep hunt. Too often along the highway people are stumbling over each other in the popular spots known to them. The G/O usually has already been pushed back and whats wrong with that. He has the equipment to get there. I'm not, against opening the resident season 2 or 3 weeks prior to the nonresident to steer away from the arguement that the guide will hunt the high way first and chase the sheep away.

I have never met a hunter yet would not rather be alone in a basin with his hunting group and 25 rams. Than be in the same basin with 3 or 4 others all having a foot race to be there first.

[bridger]

The guide would loose in quota and he should. My point is that the quality of trophy and the hunt it's self would be more attractive to both the resident and the non. The guide has a more restricted product to sell and the resident can actually experience the serinity of a Sheep hunt. Too often along the highway people are stumbling over each other in the popular spots known to them. The G/O usually has already been pushed back and whats wrong with that. He has the equipment to get there. I'm not, against opening the resident season 2 or 3 weeks prior to the nonresident to steer away from the arguement that the guide will hunt the high way first and chase the sheep away.

I have never met a hunter yet would not rather be alone in a basin with his hunting group and 25 rams. Than be in the same basin with 3 or 4 others all having a foot race to be there first.


for my money i would rather have an opportunity to go every year if an area is crowded i can go someplace else. also in my experience the guide outfitter is more competition and pain the backside than resident hunters. instead of leh along the highway how about a non resident free zone along the highway. the reduced competition from professional sheep quides would do more to enhance a resident opportunity than leh

[BCrams]

No need to look any farther than Spatsizi - we've already got our real life example.

No kidding. Lets present some info:

The outfitter has a quota of 8 sheep tags / year.

He is 100% on harvest success rates the last few years.
All rams most years are between 37" and 42" (none of those 34-36" rams)
Most years - overall average of each ram is over 38"
Most years - overall age average is 10.5 years
Takes at least 1 B&C class ram (or borderline) every year sometimes 2No where else and no other Stone's sheep outfitter can boast these kind of stats right now. Sure the odd 'big ram' comes from elsewhere .... but no outfit can boast the quality of rams he takes these days.....

Now the Spats will produce the odd excellent ram for the die hard resident trophy hunters ....... but the fact is:

Its LEH
The resident harvest is LOW (although has come up the last 2 years with the early draws .... but still no where near where it should be)
Access issues are a problem for those who want to fly into certain areas........:?
Benefits those with horses in a big way (but how many of us own horses right?)
So really ... the only stuff that gets hit most are mostly what guys can access off the Klappan Rail grade on the couple trails which exist.Its really funny this whole area is LEH because the highest density of Stone's sheep in Region 6 essentially falls within the Spats LEH area. With such tough access as it is ..... I believe they should have it as a general open season. The GO is still going to hunt all the sheep most residents have no access to anyways.

[Ambush]

for my money i would rather have an opportunity to go every year if an area is crowded i can go someplace else. also in my experience the guide outfitter is more competition and pain the backside than resident hunters. instead of leh along the highway how about a non resident free zone along the highway. the reduced competition from professional sheep quides would do more to enhance a resident opportunity than leh

You're making WAY too much sense here Bridger. Better stop now, we can't take too much of that.

You have well thought out posts, and civil to. Keep talking.

[BCrams]

for my money i would rather have an opportunity to go every year if an area is crowded i can go someplace else. also in my experience the guide outfitter is more competition and pain the backside than resident hunters. instead of leh along the highway how about a non resident free zone along the highway. the reduced competition from professional sheep quides would do more to enhance a resident opportunity than leh

Chuckle .... tit for tat ..... bet some outfits would be glad to give up the highway areas in exchange for his more remote and better sheep areas to be a 'resident free zone'

I forsee many complications arising from this.

[PGK]

for my money i would rather have an opportunity to go every year if an area is crowded i can go someplace else. also in my experience the guide outfitter is more competition and pain the backside than resident hunters. instead of leh along the highway how about a non resident free zone along the highway. the reduced competition from professional sheep quides would do more to enhance a resident opportunity than leh

:!:

That idea could start a small war...

...and I like it!

[GoatGuy]

No kidding. Lets present some info:

The outfitter has a quota of 8 sheep tags / year.
He is 100% on harvest success rates the last few years.
All rams most years are between 37" and 42" (none of those 34-36" rams)
Most years - overall average of each ram is over 38"
Most years - overall age average is 10.5 years
Takes at least 1 B&C class ram (or borderline) every year sometimes 2No where else and no other Stone's sheep outfitter can boast these kind of stats right now. Sure the odd 'big ram' comes from elsewhere .... but no outfit can boast the quality of rams he takes these days.....

Now the Spats will produce the odd excellent ram for the die hard resident trophy hunters ....... but the fact is:
Its LEH
The resident harvest is LOW (although has come up the last 2 years with the early draws .... but still no where near where it should be)
Access issues are a problem for those who want to fly into certain areas........:?
Benefits those with horses in a big way (but how many of us own horses right?)
So really ... the only stuff that gets hit most are mostly what guys can access off the Klappan Rail grade on the couple trails which exist.Its really funny this whole area is LEH because the highest density of Stone's sheep in Region 6 essentially falls within the Spats LEH area. With such tough access as it is ..... I believe they should have it as a general open season. The GO is still going to hunt all the sheep most residents have no access to anyways.

No doubt, 50 LEH and 2-3 resident sheep killed every year. That's quality, if you're non-res. As a resident you have to be able to go hunting to have a quality hunt.

LEH is not hunting opportunity, it's only the opportunity to put in for the opportunity to go hunting. Confusing? Yes.

Personally I'd rather be out hunting with lower success rates than sitting on the couch thinking about going hunting.

[proguide66]

:!:

That idea could start a small war...

...and I like it!

Just for ' knowledge ' for curious guys readin...we went from 23 sheep tags to 13 in the last few yrs !.....as well , everyone else lost sheep tags.
As far as ' wars' ect.....I personally stay out of it......I am a resident hunter as well a guide....like I said previous , I wish for ALL hunters to have the EXPERIENCE of nailin a great ram...as well all other species....conflict and finger pointing does shit for all of us.

[BCrams]

...we went from 23 sheep tags to 13 in the last few yrs!.....as well , everyone else lost sheep tags.


Definate progress for present and future resident sheep hunters !! More needs to be done.

[bridger]

As a matter in common interest and info we now have a new provincial allocation policy that will be fully implemented in 2012 for stone sheep that will guarantee residents a minimum of 60% of the allowable harvest and a maximum of 80%. in 7b the last few years the split has been about 55% 45% in the non resident favor. even more lopsided in region 6. the present allowable harvest target is 181 rams for region 7b. when the policy was signed off in 2007 the non resident quota was 137 out of 181. it was reduced by 20% for 2007 and will be further reduced in 2012 to 40% of 181 to app 72 rams for non residents. to allow residents to acheive their harvest share some changes may have to be made in favor of the resident. this will also apply in region 6. one of the changes being considered for region 6 is a season for residents that opens two weeks ahead of the non resident season. there are positive changes on the horizon for resident sheep hunters and it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out

[BCrams]

In a public hunting forum where many hunters gather to read, it is great that Bridger is presenting information like this is in order to make more resident hunters aware of what is going on.

Awareness / education amongst resident hunters can easily spread by word of mouth to members and non-members alike and consequently more support can be garnered.

[6616]

I'm not, against opening the resident season 2 or 3 weeks prior to the nonresident

Great idea Willie, I think the BCWF should go ahead with pursuing that...but let's make it 7B overall, not just the highway corridor. Can we say it was your idea Bill now that you're just a resident hunter like the rest of us?

[willy442]

No doubt, 50 LEH and 2-3 resident sheep killed every year. That's quality, if you're non-res. As a resident you have to be able to go hunting to have a quality hunt.

LEH is not hunting opportunity, it's only the opportunity to put in for the opportunity to go hunting. Confusing? Yes.

Personally I'd rather be out hunting with lower success rates than sitting on the couch thinking about going hunting.

How about we build a road in there so you and BC Rams can have access. I guess you're owed that as a resident hunter. :idea:

[willy442]

Great idea Willie, I think the BCWF should go ahead with pursuing that...but let's make it 7B overall, not just the highway corridor. Can we say it was your idea Bill now that you're just a resident hunter like the rest of us?

I don't recall ever being a non resident hunter. My views and ideas may be different than yours. Yes I would support resident hunting off the hwy and a non guided area. Might as well let a small portion of the country be decimated than all of it.

[willy442]

:!:

That idea could start a small war...

...and I like it!

How do you think anything would change? The amount of Rams taken now by GO's close to the hwy are not enough to make a difference.

[willy442]

As a matter in common interest and info we now have a new provincial allocation policy that will be fully implemented in 2012 for stone sheep that will guarantee residents a minimum of 60% of the allowable harvest and a maximum of 80%. in 7b the last few years the split has been about 55% 45% in the non resident favor. even more lopsided in region 6. the present allowable harvest target is 181 rams for region 7b. when the policy was signed off in 2007 the non resident quota was 137 out of 181. it was reduced by 20% for 2007 and will be further reduced in 2012 to 40% of 181 to app 72 rams for non residents. to allow residents to acheive their harvest share some changes may have to be made in favor of the resident. this will also apply in region 6. one of the changes being considered for region 6 is a season for residents that opens two weeks ahead of the non resident season. there are positive changes on the horizon for resident sheep hunters and it will be interesting to see how it all shakes out

Where are all the resident Rams going to come from? The hwy and accessabile area's will stay hit as hard as now and the back country will continue to get better for those who can get there resident or not. You've been dealing with these issue's as long as the old time guides and Bio's and has anything really changed other than a drop in trophy quality?

[GoatGuy]

How about we build a road in there so you and BC Rams can have access. I guess you're owed that as a resident hunter. :idea:

Point is the Spatsizi shouldn't be LEH.

[GoatGuy]

Where are all the resident Rams going to come from? The hwy and accessabile area's will stay hit as hard as now and the back country will continue to get better for those who can get there resident or not. You've been dealing with these issue's as long as the old time guides and Bio's and has anything really changed other than a drop in trophy quality?

There has plenty of change since he's started with this stuff.

Biggest are quota and a shift from 77% non-resident harvest to 71% res harvest; I'd say that's significant.

[Skeena Hunter 1]

It amazes me how a thread can morph from a guy asking a question about a hunting spot, to a thread about 10 diferent things. Actually it scares the hell out of me, especially when this thread has more views than the black bear sticky at the top, and has only been going a fraction of the time. But, hey, I guess Nero isn't the only one that can play a fiddle.

Oh by the way, Spatsizi is not going GOS, the antis would flip as well as the Tahltan. And no 80,000+ hunters voices won't change it. especially when their voices are squabbling over elk seasons, how many mule deer there are, how big are the sheep, premier tags, archery hunts,and youth seasons, etc.

Anyway, enjoy your debate, by the time it is over we might have "a" sheep to hunt.

Chuck

[PGK]

How do you think anything would change? The amount of Rams taken now by GO's close to the hwy are not enough to make a difference.

I don't see the number of rams being taken as the issue in my eyes. In my eyes, the detracting factor is the number of hunters in the area. I don't want to go up there and run into 10 or 15 other guys, guided or not! However, from the stories I hear, it's much more pleasant to run into residents than non residents (especially their guides).

Either way, I'm not going sheep hunting to run into crowds of people. I can do that in 5-2 on remembrance day!!

This thread has completely diverted my idea of where to plan my hunt. I guarantee I will not be anywhere near Wokkpash lake!!

[BCrams]

This thread has completely diverted my idea of where to plan my hunt. I guarantee I will not be anywhere near Wokkpash lake!!

For what its worth .... I spent approx. 20 days total in the Wokpash during sheep season (over 2 trips) and the only people we ran into were a group of 6 'hikers' passing through quickly doing the Wokpash hike. Not one sheep hunter. The only other hunters we ran into were camped near the trail head hunting caribou off the washes.

Thats why I am mystified where all these hunters are coming from?

Didn't see a single soul the entire time when this picture was taken......just sheep, goats and caribou........ back end of Wokpash ....... rugged country and plenty of hidey holes for big rams because most 'guided' clients don't have what it takes to climb into those rugged spots (like those hanging cirques in the background that rams like to hide in)....but hey ... where was the guide? The outfitter cabin / camp at the end of the lake was vacant both times with no sign of any horses either having been in there!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/SheepCountry2002.jpg

[budismyhorse]

biased counts....thats how. Sorry Proguide, but I'm sure some were hikers and double counted hunters. Unless each person was interviewed on each day they passed by said camp, that number is invalid.

Their count is designed to push their particular agenda.......there is no reason at all to keep a count of hunters that walk by your camp....other than to bitch about it. It certainly isn't for interest.

but whatever, good...fine, just proves that people are out there hunting and hiking in the MK!

[budismyhorse]

Willy, your defintition of a trophy is completely different from that of a resident hunter.

Just because some non-res happens to get led by the hand to a large scoring ram doesn't make it much of a trophy (in my books). A resident who busts his/her arse non-guided for a few seasons and takes a sheep in fair chase on the ram's terms, makes that accomplishment much more significant (to me), regardless of score.

And I think I speak for a few BC resident sheep hunters when I say that.

[PGK]

Views 2,819

Based on the attention from this thread alone, I'm good going elsewhere!

[PGK]

Willy, your defintition of a trophy is completely different from that of a resident hunter.

Just because some non-res happens to get led by the hand to a large scoring ram doesn't make it much of a trophy (in my books). A resident who busts his/her arse non-guided for a few seasons and takes a sheep in fair chase on the ram's terms, makes that accomplishment much more significant (to me), regardless of score.

And I think I speak for a few BC resident sheep hunters when I say that.

Yup, same here

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Willy, your defintition of a trophy is completely different from that of a resident hunter.

Just because some non-res happens to get led by the hand to a large scoring ram doesn't make it much of a trophy (in my books). A resident who busts his/her arse non-guided for a few seasons and takes a sheep in fair chase on the ram's terms, makes that accomplishment much more significant (to me), regardless of score.

And I think I speak for a few BC resident sheep hunters when I say that.


You can speak for me on this one, Bud!:smile:

SSS

[Kitimat Killer]

You can speak for me on this one, Bud!:smile:

SSS


yup im the same i did not know asking this question would start a war on here about leh

kk

[BCrams]

Views 2,819

Based on the attention from this thread alone, I'm good going elsewhere!

Awww admit it Kris ..... those lil hills scare you!! :biggrin:



And I think I speak for a few BC resident sheep hunters when I say that.


Same here.

Now I know there are exceptions with some non-resi's being able to hustle and work as hard as the guide and in some cases .... whup the guide into going where he wants to hunt for sheep because the guide was incompetent.

[butcher]

Views 2,819

Based on the attention from this thread alone, I'm good going elsewhere!


If you're going off the highway don't expect anything different. Go early and go hard that way you can beat all the lazy guys to that opening day ram (stonechaser)

[budismyhorse]

Views 2,819

Based on the attention from this thread alone, I'm good going elsewhere!


AHhhh PGK, if you are picking up what BCrams is putting down....his pic is ~20 km from the road and it doens't sound like too many people hunt back there, guided or resident.....Sometimes the talk of lots of hunters is just that....talk. Happens all the time in the EK for bighorns.

[Dirty]

BCRams, how long does it take you to travel ~20 KMs in the backcountry? I know it depends on terrain and weather, but in general what would you suggest as a conservative estimate.

[bigwhiteys]

but in general what would you suggest as a conservative estimate.

Setting aside plenty of glassing time, (you can walk by lots of sheep in 20km), I would break that up into 2 days of hiking. I am sure there are others who could do 12 miles in a day no problemo if you were hiking up a wash, creek or packtrail.

Throw all the fun stuff in like, miles of buck brush, huge boulder fields, 3 foot deep moss, impassable waterfalls etc... And the going gets much slower... Especially when you're loaded down.

Carl

[budismyhorse]

Dirty, without a trail, in rough country, 10 km per day is a good rule of thumb. But that is conservative, which is the way I normally plan hunts.

[BCrams]

Its 36 km from the MacDonald Crossing to the far end of Wokpash Lake. I few in once and hiked in another. If you're willing to drive your truck across the creek (see other thread with water half way up truck) you can cut off 15 km and just have 21 km to hike. I was side tracked on my way in and had to do a 6 km detour to have a closer look at some rams ....

As for the rest ....... what Carl / budismyhorse says regarding terrain etc..... what one person can do in a day can easily take another 2 days. Fitness / experience / comfort level and especially mental toughness in the mountains dictate a lot as to what a person can accomplish.

[leadpillproductions]

well i have to say the questions started off good then a hole bunch of people suckin there thumb then it turn good again thats funny go hunt and have some fun who cares what or how many people are in there it only take one ram its a big place in there go find them its half the fun

[willy442]

It really amazes me how the BC resident hunter can snub thier noses at Nonresidents in the world wide hunting fratenity and the various clubs and organizations that are primarily supported by the Non resident hunter. What on earth gives a few residents (not all) the idea that they; by themselves can insure the future of hunting. It is an absolute joke and rediculous thinking on behalf of people like Stone Sheep Steve, Goat Guy, BC Rams, 6616, Bud is my horse, and some others, to continually take these kinds of threads and turn them into Nonresident and G/O bashing feasts. The bottom line is not one of you really have any concern for Sheep outside of what share you get. I would bet that each and every Nonresident that has ever hunted Stone Sheep has indirectly contributed more to the longivitey of Sheep hunting than any of you.

I never have argued that the resident should not come first in the allowable harvest issue's. However to sit by and watch the bulk of you bitch and complain about places being inaccessable and pilots not wanting to fly you because they work for an Outfitter is total BULLSHIT. If you don't like it go buy your own horses and take care of them for 50 weeks out of the year so you can use them for your annual two weeks off. See what the cost of that is to get you back further into the hills and out of the pressured areas. To tell any one that you would rather hunt in a valley every year with 25 others rather than prestine wilderness is also BULLSHIT, if any of you had the means to get further back you would.

Like I've said many times LEH in Sheep only disperses the hunter it has no part of Sheep management and that is primarily why some residents dislike it so strongly. Don't kid yourself there are some that understand it will happen, the question is when and will it be too late in the easily accessed areas, like along the hwy.

Then we have people like Goat Guy that are so educated beyond thier intelligence that the most simple formula's totally escape the thought process because the mind is so bogged down with useless numbers. He can't even read what some one writes with out trying to find some thing between the lines that suits his own agenda.

[GoatGuy]

Skeena Hunter and Bud good posts.

[Dirty]

I have to check my GPS to see the distance we covered in a day. I was in terrible shape at the time, but now I am in a lot better condition. We could have kept going, but got a late start due to weather conditions and had to set up camp before dark. Thanks for the estimates about how far you can travel in a day. If a guy was prepared and physically fit, you could pack a long distance away from the spots where all the other yahoos are. On a 14 day trip you could get way back away from where the other guys are. Especially the ones that aren't very fit or prepared.

As far as outfitters go, all the outfitters I have ever met, all over BC, have been friendly. A good portion of their clients were also very friendly. I guess it depends what outfit you are dealing with and their attitudes. I could see where a guy paying 30G's would be a little upset about resident hunters in the same area as the guide is taking them. However, this is something the guide/outfitter has to deal with.

[budismyhorse]

It really amazes me how the BC resident hunter can snub thier noses at Nonresidents in the world wide hunting fratenity and the various clubs and organizations that are primarily supported by the Non resident hunter. What on earth gives a few residents (not all) the idea that they; by themselves can insure the future of hunting. It is an absolute joke and rediculous thinking on behalf of people like Stone Sheep Steve, Goat Guy, BC Rams, 6616, Bud is my horse, and some others, to continually take these kinds of threads and turn them into Nonresident and G/O bashing feasts. The bottom line is not one of you really have any concern for Sheep outside of what share you get. I would bet that each and every Nonresident that has ever hunted Stone Sheep has indirectly contributed more to the longivitey of Sheep hunting than any of you.



BS from top to bottom.

I have no problem with the G/O industry....what I do have a problem with is when they try and push their agenda which effects resident hunting oportunity...in any way. You are the one who started this whole squabble when you started barking about LEH on the highway. LEH only helps out the G/O's no matter how you try and spin it.

I don't live up north but can imagine that with more residents hunting "your areas", there are less "trophy" rams for your hunters to take......smaller rams and a hunt "marred" by running into residents will be tougher to sell to clients....therefore its natural for the G/O's to do everything in their power to get sheep on LEH. ........like count resident sheep hunters in their area and holler LEH!! whenever that number is perceived to be too high.

As for non residents putting more back into sheep than us???? how through cash? how about the countless volunteer hours in the group you just pegged. If those hours were dollars, I'd be willing to bet against you.

I'd like to point out that Proguide was great about this subject, it wasn't until the loud mouth sheep sherif blasted LEH!! that got the topic going south.

[willy442]

I have to check my GPS to see the distance we covered in a day. I was in terrible shape at the time, but now I am in a lot better condition. We could have kept going, but got a late start due to weather conditions and had to set up camp before dark. Thanks for the estimates about how far you can travel in a day. If a guy was prepared and physically fit, you could pack a long distance away from the spots where all the other yahoos are. On a 14 day trip you could get way back away from where the other guys are. Especially the ones that aren't very fit or prepared.

As far as outfitters go, all the outfitters I have ever met, all over BC, have been friendly. A good portion of their clients were also very friendly. I guess it depends what outfit you are dealing with and their attitudes. I could see where a guy paying 30G's would be a little upset about resident hunters in the same area as the guide is taking them. However, this is something the guide/outfitter has to deal with.

You are exactly right. However there still remains the ones on both sides that cause or create friction amongst the groups. I have had many prospectors and other hunters sit at my table in sheep camp.

[GoatGuy]

It really amazes me how the BC resident hunter can snub thier noses at Nonresidents in the world wide hunting fratenity and the various clubs and organizations that are primarily supported by the Non resident hunter. What on earth gives a few residents (not all) the idea that they; by themselves can insure the future of hunting. It is an absolute joke and rediculous thinking on behalf of people like Stone Sheep Steve, Goat Guy, BC Rams, 6616, Bud is my horse, and some others, to continually take these kinds of threads and turn them into Nonresident and G/O bashing feasts. The bottom line is not one of you really have any concern for Sheep outside of what share you get. I would bet that each and every Nonresident that has ever hunted Stone Sheep has indirectly contributed more to the longivitey of Sheep hunting than any of you.

I never have argued that the resident should not come first in the allowable harvest issue's. However to sit by and watch the bulk of you bitch and complain about places being inaccessable and pilots not wanting to fly you because they work for an Outfitter is total BULLSHIT. If you don't like it go buy your own horses and take care of them for 50 weeks out of the year so you can use them for your annual two weeks off. See what the cost of that is to get you back further into the hills and out of the pressured areas. To tell any one that you would rather hunt in a valley every year with 25 others rather than prestine wilderness is also BULLSHIT, if any of you had the means to get further back you would.

Like I've said many times LEH in Sheep only disperses the hunter it has no part of Sheep management and that is primarily why some residents dislike it so strongly. Don't kid yourself there are some that understand it will happen, the question is when and will it be too late in the easily accessed areas, like along the hwy.

Then we have people like Goat Guy that are so educated beyond thier intelligence that the most simple formula's totally escape the thought process because the mind is so bogged down with useless numbers. He can't even read what some one writes with out trying to find some thing between the lines that suits his own agenda.

Let me make this very simple:


LEH kills hunters
No hunters = no funding
No funding = no protection for the resource
No protection for the resource = no resourceAfter #4 refer to #1 -- apply it to whatever you want, habitat improvement, inventory or even predator control.

If folks would have realized this 30 years ago we might still have some good programs on the go.

We don't!


You're big on jumping out the window research: See the correlation?

[GoatGuy]

As for the rest ....... what Carl / budismyhorse says regarding terrain etc..... what one person can do in a day can easily take another 2 days. Fitness / experience / comfort level and especially mental toughness in the mountains dictate a lot as to what a person can accomplish.

You're totally right, also depends on the type of country. If it's hunting country things slow to a crawl, if you're headed somewhere to hunt a person can put some pretty major ground behind themselves.

Also depends on who you're hunting with.:lol:

[bigwhiteys]

I'd like to point out that Proguide was great about this subject, it wasn't until the loud mouth sheep sherif blasted LEH!! that got the topic going south (and Bigwhiteys (G/O family), didn't help either).

My family was brought up in this thread by SSS not myself... If anything I've tried to contribute to the thread Bud. My comment was more tongue in cheek then anything in response to proguides hunter tally.

Carl

[willy442]

Let me make this very simple:

LEH kills hunters
No hunters = no funding
No funding = no protection for the resource
No protection for the resource = no resourceAfter #4 refer to #1 -- apply it to whatever you want, habitat improvement, inventory or even predator control.

If folks would have realized this 30 years ago we might still have some good programs on the go.

We don't!


You're big on jumping out the window research: See the correlation?

Let's refer to the post about new regulation in the Peace. 20 years ago the G/O's were able to see the damage being caused by the over population of ELK and wanted to do something about it. It was your kind with all the Biological data that dragged the issue along in limbo for all these years preventing what they now see needs to happen. It may just be people like you thinking they are smarter than and can control mother nature that are the problem.

You have claimed that hunter numbers have decreased and also claim that game herds are doing fine. So where is the foundation for your above claims. You remind me of an old wringer washer going back and forth. Bet at your age you've seen as many of those as you have Stone Sheep. You have no idea of 30 years ago!

No funding, no resource you say. The total funding that hunting brings in world wide is a drop in the bucket towards what the anti hunter can come up with. That is why your approach of managing for the hunter is so foolish. Take care of the animal and the hunter will follow.

[Dirty]

I just checked my Garmin Mapsource Program and we travelled 7.3KM in the short time we had. Could have easily travelled 10KM in a day. I was really looking over the area that we should have gone in to, but ran out of time. It was an additional 15KM.

[budismyhorse]

You got it in ya Dirty!

remember, the further you go...the further you gotta lug that thing back...though, with a ram strapped to your pack, it might be the lightest 100+ pounds you will ever carry!

Hey Carl,

re-read your post, Tongue in cheek noted! my appologies. cheers!

[proguide66]

( I'm keepin my coments directed at the original topic..again.. I pass on the confrontation side of the 'sheep topic'...again...doesnt do a thing in the + side on here for anyone)
Anyway....just so you guy's understand the #'s.....I never said " over 40 sheep hunters in one drainage"...I said over 40 hunters passed through EACH of our southern camps throughout the season.....now , who knows what tags they all had.....but that IS the accurate #'s of dudes riding' hiking in that we see.Take note , we usually have a cook / wrangler in camp watching their hair grow as we hunt..so its a bit of a past time to count res hunters- and our ' NON guideing ' packers lol .( hard to imagine anyone goin in that country without a sheep tag)....I read lots of guy's noting hunts with no hunter sightings...even being in for " 20 days and not seeing anyone "...lots can happen the rest of the remaining 40 days after you have been done !!...here's an example of how that goes from past experience : I used to start the season off with 2 -15 day sheep hunts up the same drain...no plane...rode in / out each hunt.....3 years straight I went in...got my 2 rams...saw no one...one year went in for opening....4 backpackers...then 2 more..then some guy's came in with 8 horses...lolol...everyone in there at the same time...dead end valley...kinda made me not want to go in there again..took a chance , went in 2nd hunt( as you expereinced guys know - everyday sheep hunting is a new day)..10 more horses , 3 guys...passed 4 back packers on my way out....its really a crap shoot on picking your spot in the north east.....fortunately for us , we can read the signs goin in...make a call...double back , hit the horse trailer and go somewhere else if its that choked( hopefully)...then there's the guys who hike in on foot...are more or less ' committed ' to their spot of choice...aspecially due to having so much time off from work a year...and run into a 'gang of dudes' once they get in there..( eating up the precious time they have)..all in all I have only freindly advice...you may go in and have an epic time all to your self...or...might be an audience or sadly even a running race to a ram!!..lol...( Ive never done that but watched a few)...sadly , lately for some reason there is NO shortage of other hunter sightings....

Anyway.if you do go into the WP , make sure you have goat tags!!...good luck ! :D

[budismyhorse]

Proguide,

thanks for the info.

I guess my biggest problem with your side of the coin is that I just don't think that is a problem? The next day everyone would split up and continue on. That is huge country up there no?

I rode into one of my favorite bighorn valleys a few years ago, climbed up and looked back. There were 16 different horses in three different groups coming up behind us spread over 4 kms.....and I don't think I have to tell you about the differences between the number of legal bighorns and thinhorns.

If you feel like it, finish off your story about that gong-show in the dead-end valley. Did you ride out and get your hunter a ram in a different location?

[bridger]

( I'm keepin my coments directed at the original topic..again.. I pass on the confrontation side of the 'sheep topic'...again...doesnt do a thing in the + side on here for anyone)
Anyway....just so you guy's understand the #'s.....I never said " over 40 sheep hunters in one drainage"...I said over 40 hunters passed through EACH of our southern camps throughout the season.....now , who knows what tags they all had.....but that IS the accurate #'s of dudes riding' hiking in that we see.Take note , we usually have a cook / wrangler in camp watching their hair grow as we hunt..so its a bit of a past time to count res hunters- and our ' NON guideing ' packers lol .( hard to imagine anyone goin in that country without a sheep tag)....I read lots of guy's noting hunts with no hunter sightings...even being in for " 20 days and not seeing anyone "...lots can happen the rest of the remaining 40 days after you have been done !!...here's an example of how that goes from past experience : I used to start the season off with 2 -15 day sheep hunts up the same drain...no plane...rode in / out each hunt.....3 years straight I went in...got my 2 rams...saw no one...one year went in for opening....4 backpackers...then 2 more..then some guy's came in with 8 horses...lolol...everyone in there at the same time...dead end valley...kinda made me not want to go in there again..took a chance , went in 2nd hunt( as you expereinced guys know - everyday sheep hunting is a new day)..10 more horses , 3 guys...passed 4 back packers on my way out....its really a crap shoot on picking your spot in the north east.....fortunately for us , we can read the signs goin in...make a call...double back , hit the horse trailer and go somewhere else if its that choked( hopefully)...then there's the guys who hike in on foot...are more or less ' committed ' to their spot of choice...aspecially due to having so much time off from work a year...and run into a 'gang of dudes' once they get in there..( eating up the precious time they have)..all in all I have only freindly advice...you may go in and have an epic time all to your self...or...might be an audience or sadly even a running race to a ram!!..lol...( Ive never done that but watched a few)...sadly , lately for some reason there is NO shortage of other hunter sightings....

Anyway.if you do go into the WP , make sure you have goat tags!!...good luck ! :D


nice reply makes sense thanks

[proguide66]

Proguide,

thanks for the info.

I guess my biggest problem with your side of the coin is that I just don't think that is a problem? The next day everyone would split up and continue on. That is huge country up there no?

I rode into one of my favorite bighorn valleys a few years ago, climbed up and looked back. There were 16 different horses in three different groups coming up behind us spread over 4 kms.....and I don't think I have to tell you about the differences between the number of legal bighorns and thinhorns.

If you feel like it, finish off your story about that gong-show in the dead-end valley. Did you ride out and get your hunter a ram in a different location?Well...picture this....still got him on a ram - in the fog- it was maybe 38 long side , 9 yrs..14".....had 5 buddies...he misses...found them again around 4 kms down river...( rest of crowd went to the head )...got him on them again...200 yr shot...hunter is squatting on my left..gun barrel is around my shoulder hieght as I'm glassing/aging...tell him to " put one in the tube"..he does...300 weatherby mag , with muzzle break...goes off 2 ft to me left...1 ft below my ear hieght...totally kicked my head to the side...thought he shot me...my head still rings out loud over the TV...anyway..rode out.( day 5 of 15)...next day I had to ride 8 hrs into my 'usual camp'with 14 head ...he gets flown in , tells me that morning "I have to kill something after spending all this $ "..lol..( understandably , but he said it with sarcasm and he COULDNT HIKE !)....first day out in the AM I tell him to clear the horses ass with his boot when he swings up...his boot stops on the horses ass..horse does the funky dance on the river rock..hunter flailes everywhere...horse panics..bucks him off..hunter lands on his back on river rock...flew him out to the hospital...hunt over!..lolol....( gave the horse an apple ,:evil::biggrin:)

The End !

lol

[GoatGuy]

( I'm keepin my coments directed at the original topic..again.. I pass on the confrontation side of the 'sheep topic'...again...doesnt do a thing in the + side on here for anyone)
Anyway....just so you guy's understand the #'s.....I never said " over 40 sheep hunters in one drainage"...I said over 40 hunters passed through EACH of our southern camps throughout the season.....now , who knows what tags they all had.....but that IS the accurate #'s of dudes riding' hiking in that we see.Take note , we usually have a cook / wrangler in camp watching their hair grow as we hunt..so its a bit of a past time to count res hunters- and our ' NON guideing ' packers lol .( hard to imagine anyone goin in that country without a sheep tag)....I read lots of guy's noting hunts with no hunter sightings...even being in for " 20 days and not seeing anyone "...lots can happen the rest of the remaining 40 days after you have been done !!...here's an example of how that goes from past experience : I used to start the season off with 2 -15 day sheep hunts up the same drain...no plane...rode in / out each hunt.....3 years straight I went in...got my 2 rams...saw no one...one year went in for opening....4 backpackers...then 2 more..then some guy's came in with 8 horses...lolol...everyone in there at the same time...dead end valley...kinda made me not want to go in there again..took a chance , went in 2nd hunt( as you expereinced guys know - everyday sheep hunting is a new day)..10 more horses , 3 guys...passed 4 back packers on my way out....its really a crap shoot on picking your spot in the north east.....fortunately for us , we can read the signs goin in...make a call...double back , hit the horse trailer and go somewhere else if its that choked( hopefully)...then there's the guys who hike in on foot...are more or less ' committed ' to their spot of choice...aspecially due to having so much time off from work a year...and run into a 'gang of dudes' once they get in there..( eating up the precious time they have)..all in all I have only freindly advice...you may go in and have an epic time all to your self...or...might be an audience or sadly even a running race to a ram!!..lol...( Ive never done that but watched a few)...sadly , lately for some reason there is NO shortage of other hunter sightings....

Anyway.if you do go into the WP , make sure you have goat tags!!...good luck ! :D

This makes sense. I'm sure you aren't a bser.

I don't think you should be judged for the company you keep - not too many people to hang around with in Pemby! :lol:

[Dirty]

Well...picture this....still got him on a ram - in the fog- it was maybe 38 long side , 9 yrs..14".....had 5 buddies...he misses...found them again around 4 kms down river...( rest of crowd went to the head )...got him on them again...200 yr shot...hunter is squatting on my left..gun barrel is around my shoulder hieght as I'm glassing/aging...tell him to " put one in the tube"..he does...300 weatherby mag , with muzzle break...goes off 2 ft to me left...1 ft below my ear hieght...totally kicked my head to the side...thought he shot me...my head still rings out loud over the TV...anyway..rode out.( day 5 of 15)...next day I had to ride 8 hrs into my 'usual camp'with 14 head ...he gets flown in , tells me that morning "I have to kill something after spending all this $ "..lol..( understandably , but he said it with sarcasm and he COULDNT HIKE !)....first day out in the AM I tell him to clear the horses ass with his boot when he swings up...his boot stops on the horses ass..horse does the funky dance on the river rock..hunter flailes everywhere...horse panics..bucks him off..hunter lands on his back on river rock...flew him out to the hospital...hunt over!..lolol....( gave the horse an apple ,:evil::biggrin:)

The End !

lol

How many times have you had that happen? I talked to a guide at a banquet that said he had a client empty his entire gun at a ram that was just standing there, didn't even move until his gun was empty. Should have known when he told him to shoot and the gun never went off but the guy jerked. The safety was on, he was just flinching because he was afraid of his 300 Ultra Mag. LOL

[GoatGuy]

How many times have you had that happen? I talked to a guide at a banquet that said he had a client empty his entire gun at a ram that was just standing there, didn't even move until his gun was empty. Should have known when he told him to shoot and the gun never went off but the guy jerked. The safety was on, he was just flinching because he was afraid of his 300 Ultra Mag. LOL

Had a guy 'shooting from the hip' doing that. Just standing there squeezing the trigger, unloaded, pointed in the direction of a bear, nothing else happening. Real character.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

My family was brought up in this thread by SSS not myself... If anything I've tried to contribute to the thread Bud. My comment was more tongue in cheek then anything in response to proguides hunter tally.

Carl

Just want to see you and the rest of us have the opportunity to go hunt Stone's off the hwy each year that we choose.

If willy get's his wishes, it would be LEH within "boot distance" of the hwy around Muncho.


As far as distance travelled in a day.....I put on well over 110 kms in a 12 day hunt. Most of that was with full packs with a few side trips with day packs. More that I would have liked to have put on but it all worked out in the end. It was pretty easy country to get around in......makes a huge difference.

SSS

[boxhitch]

I talked to a guide at a banquet that said he had a client ...........
Believe It !! No BS at a banquet !!

[Dirty]

He was a friend of a friend. He was telling the truth. He hadn't been given voluntarily or involuntarily any of Former-Legendary Member Kechika's famous Ruficoladas.

[bigwhiteys]

If willy get's his wishes, it would be LEH within "boot distance" of the hwy around Muncho.


I think Willy just likes getting you guys all fired up over it.

Carl

[BCbillies]

I think Willy just likes getting you guys all fired up over it.


Perhaps . . . my experience (from observing others ;-)) is that guys get fired up and lose the odd friendship over money, women and SHEEP! The third item didn't come to my attention until I took to the high country chasing them rams 10 years ago. It's a disease that is tough to tame! When we're not training, buying gear or actually hunting we enjoy reading about it or stirring the pot a little. In the end we're all learning a thing or two, can hopefully shake hands and enjoy a beverage together! Maybe a northern HBC meeting in the WP next fall??? :smile:

[willy442]

Just want to see you and the rest of us have the opportunity to go hunt Stone's off the hwy each year that we choose.

If willy get's his wishes, it would be LEH within "boot distance" of the hwy around Muncho.


As far as distance travelled in a day.....I put on well over 110 kms in a 12 day hunt. Most of that was with full packs with a few side trips with day packs. More that I would have liked to have put on but it all worked out in the end. It was pretty easy country to get around in......makes a huge difference.

SSS

110k in 12 days is called hiking not hunting. Slow down and look around, you might contribute to keeping the resi to guide ratio up. On second thought you're probably O.K. now with B.C. rams helping you.:razz:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

110k in 12 days is called hiking not hunting.


I agree. That's one of the reasons that I looked for a new partner...although we did see ~35 rams.
Couple of bad decisions and wrong trails...but it all worked out and I did contribute to the ratio for us residents:razz:.

SSS

[BCrams]

110k in 12 days is called hiking not hunting.

Depending on the country, sometimes most of that travel is between known ram spots as well as 'before the hunt and after the hunt travel distance'. I understand horses cover a lot of ground between spots too. Routine 3-4 hour rides to get to a spot, glass, and return and then hit another mountain a several hours ride the next day etc.

On second thought you're probably O.K. now with B.C. rams helping you.:razz:

I'll be the first to admit I am far from any so called expert. I know many hunters on here and elsewhere who are far more successful and knowledgeable than myself. Heck, even newer guys to sheep hunting are taking big sheep! I just like hunting sheep whether I get one or not.

I am sure one of these years the stars will align themselves and we'll take rams.

Nearly a months worth of hunting and we havn't 'seen' a single legal ram yet. :-? SSS contributes half the work load if not more! Something I would expect in any partner in order to have a successful hunt (even if nothing is harvested)



...................

[bridger]

...................

next to good rain gear a good hunting partner is a sheep hunters biggest asset

[Dirty]

Let's further hijack this thread. What rain gear do you prefer Bridger? :mrgreen:

[d6dan]

Bridger,that is so true. Been following you guys on this sheep hunting topic. Its blows me away how everyone gets of the topic. Bottom line is a legal sheep is a legal sheep!!!.Like my dear departed hunting buddy used to say."Any Legal Ram is a Good One". And he was 34 when he died. 9 Rams on the wall!!! Anyone who hunted the EK probably heard of Mark Greenall from elkford..

[leadpillproductions]

legal is legal trophy is what you think of it and nobody else

[budismyhorse]

absolutely d6dan, good man. tragic

[d6dan]

Leadpillproductions, "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".

[eastkoot]

Had a guy 'shooting from the hip' doing that. Just standing there squeezing the trigger, unloaded, pointed in the direction of a bear, nothing else happening. Real character.What kind of drugs are you on tonight?

[GoatGuy]

What kind of drugs are you on tonight?

That was from last night, what kind of drugs you on?


True story - the guy also shot a cow red deer at a zoo in Germany when he was supposed to be shooting an old bull that the zoo wanted mounted for display. It's a long story - needless to stay he had a tendency to get buck fever. Worst case I've ever seen.

[PGK]

So if


110k in 12 days is called hiking not hunting

what is 65km in 10 days called?

[Dirty]

So if



what is 65km in 10 days called?

I believe 65km in 10 days is called 6.5KM per day average distance travelled.

[boxhitch]

So if



what is 65km in 10 days called?Ten days of moving camp ? is called a major pain in the arse.

[scoot]

So if



what is 65km in 10 days called?


Believe it if you want but this past years sheep/elk/moose trip was 22 days. I reset the trip odomitor on the GPS when we got off the boat and by the end of the hunt we were at over 300 k's. I called it a very productive and enjoyable hunt. Still only averages just over 13.5k's a day.

[scoot]

legal is legal trophy is what you think of it and nobody else

I bet willy442 is stirin like mad when he hears that:biggrin:

[bigwhiteys]

I bet willy442 is stirin like mad when he hears that

I am pretty sure he isn't mad, just dissapointed. Sheep Hunting means much more to some people then others.

Carl

[Rock Doctor]

The first time I walked into Walkkpash, I think I was 14yrs old (over 20 yrs ago now). It's a good trip, I have been going back, off and on, over the yrs. Never get tired of it, I would suggest that it's worth the trip, even if you don't find a "Trophy" Ram. You won't be disappointed.
Sometimes you find Rams, and sometimes you don't...........But that's hunting. They are there, and if you put on some miles and spend some time glassing, you will find them.

I never have flown into Wokkapash, but I have flown into Tetsa Lakes a couple times, Those were good trips too.

Just my 2 bits

[Wild Images]

Wokkpash Ram

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/69062.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10366&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2692)

[Wild Images]

Same Ram

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/c38264.jpg

[porcupine]

A beauty, and a trophy
________
Honda Fireblade history (http://www.honda-wiki.org/wiki/Honda_Fireblade)

[PGK]

How old is that ram? I have my guess, what do the masses say?

[Wild Images]

Look through the old posts on sheep aging, this guy has been done on there and I don't think we want to go through all that again :eek:

[PGK]

Like I said, I have my guess. I want to know what experience says, cause I am probably wrong!

[rand]

Wokkpash Ram

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/69062.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10366&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2692)

Its nice to have him home. Thanks Ken,Randy

[Grolar]

If your thinking of going there again pm....I know this was back in 2009 but if your going there again dont go opening day its a gone show waiting to happen , last time I was there I wad breaking up a fight with these two hunters about parking areas for frig sakes.....but wokkpash lake still have good rams there just hard to fine .....first time hunting a wokkpash I spotted a good 38-40 ram but I had to wait my hours cause I flew in.....but as people said theres a good amount of bears and wolves so be alert as I lost my dog to a boar, good look and be safe!


Cheers grolar