Deer left. why ?

[sneg]

Went to check some of my hunting spots. This particular is very scheltered area on small plato ,close to FSR and to water source.It was main bedding area. Typically deer rested here. Several years in the row there was lot of deer signs, dropping,bedding patches and some scrubs. To my surprise I found zero deer signs this year. There is no logging in visinity and I do not think that FSR traffic has changed . No bear signs or anything like that. You can see that old trails were indisturbed for quite some time. Can not figure out what actually has happened. I have seen lot of deer around this area,but they do not bed here anymore. Did anyone seen something like that or have any idea why did it happen ?
Cheers
Sneg

[6616]

Went to check some of my hunting spots. This particular is very scheltered area on small plato ,close to FSR and to water source.It was main bedding area. Typically deer rested here. Several years in the row there was lot of deer signs, dropping,bedding patches and some scrubs. To my surprise I found zero deer signs this year. There is no logging in visinity and I do not think that FSR traffic has changed . No bear signs or anything like that. You can see that old trails were indisturbed for quite some time. Can not figure out what actually has happened. I have seen lot of deer around this area,but they do not bed here anymore. Did anyone seen something like that or have any idea why did it happen ?
Cheers
Sneg

might guess wolves

[ruger#1]

Cougar would chase them out. Or they moved to another area.

[WBY.300]

yes it did in fact, up north by ft. st. john. the TECKO area ,great place for deer ,elk ,you name it. hunted several day's ,and nothing .that night it snowed and it was all clear. Wolve's drove them right out of the whole valley. hunted this place for years, and there was alway's tons of sighn. go one range over ,and as we know as hunter's .it's always fun to check new area and beating them at their own game. good luck

[sneg]

It is lower mainland area. Could be cougar or something. Wolf unlikely.

[ElkMasterC]

Ahhh...here we go with the Wolves again... :P

I noticed much the same, Sneg. I hunted in the Kootenays, in the Rockies, near Cache Ck, Williams lake, Squamish and the Okanagan this year.
I have one small 4-point Whitetail.

Last year it seemed lousy with deer. The one that sticks out is Squamish. I saw 3 decent bucks, and took a shot at one real beauty (a clean miss, fortunately for the deer). Lotsa does, and tons of sign.
Also present were cat sign, and lots of fresh wolf tracks.

This year I just came back from a hard and VERY cold 3 days of blacktail hunting, and have seen no deer. Not one. A small amount of deer sign, but no fur. No cougar tracks, no Bobcat, and no wolves.

The only thing I did see for predator sign is a coyote following two deer down a hill (tracks). Maybe the deer were heading for a pub to warm up.
I know I was, after a very disappointing 3 days.

Now for those who are thinking "Well, it's obvious the wolves ate everything last year, and moved on", save it. Predators didn't evolve to extirpate everything in an area, and then move on, and wipe out the next area. They'd be extinct by now.
Much like browsers and some grazers, carnivores also evolved to take some here and there, and keep moving, so that there's always seed stock to feed them. The only ones that never learned this are humans and the dumb livestock we breed. ;-)

Some people blame the weather, and lots blame wolves, some blame Dion, and others will take aim at the Chupacabra, but I covered a LOT of ground this year, and it was real slim pickins.

And I don't know why either.

Maybe it was the Samsquantches.

[Gus]

Now for those who are thinking "Well, it's obvious the wolves ate everything last year, and moved on", save it. Predators didn't evolve to extirpate everything in an area, and then move on, and wipe out the next area. They'd be extinct by now.
Much like browsers and some grazers, carnivores also evolved to take some here and there, and keep moving, so that there's always seed stock to feed them. The only ones that never learned this are humans and the dumb livestock we breed. ;-)


I disagree. If a predator(s) moves in to an area that holds obtainable feed, why wouldn't they continue to visit that area until the feed becomes un-obtainable. In other words, as long as there is food, why leave it. I'm not talking about whole valleys or landscapes here, but in small distinct areas I truly believe that a pack of wolves, for example, will clean the area out either from killing or simply causing the anamals to leave.

An example I can can give is last winter a pack of wolves discoverd this small peice of deer wintering ground in an area I frequent. These wolves moved back and through this area all winter long and the effect on the deer population in this area was significant this past year.

[ElkMasterC]

I don't disagree that a pack can move deer out of an area temporarily. That's not what I said. I've seen it happen. That's natural, as ungulates seek to escape becoming wolf scat. Who can blame them. If prey didn't try to escape predators, two-legged or four, then they, in turn would fade away into history.

Now unless the Wolves have moved all the ungulates out of all the areas of BC in which I hunted, or, as some think, simply ate them all, I find some views hard to take too seriously.

Apparently there's 500,000 wolves in BC from what I gather, and they all eat 3 deer a week. YUMMY! :smile:

[Gus]

Much like browsers and some grazers, carnivores also evolved to take some here and there, and keep moving, so that there's always seed stock to feed them. The only ones that never learned this are humans and the dumb livestock we breed. ;-)


I'm just saying I dont think the predators plan when they leave an area. They leave because of lack of food, not because they have decided that they have taken enough from that area better move on.

But like you mentioned, predators aren't the only reason animals become scarce in an area.

[sneg]

I would assume if there were lot of predators than there should be signs of taken animals(Carcases,bons or similar). No signs.It will be interesting to see what happens next year.

[ruger#1]

they might of moved lower to their wintering grounds. There are lots of ifs. I went to where i shot my two blacktails and only found one set of tracks, lots of eagles and a otter, it was like someone took a vacum and sucked all the deer up. Then again it was windy and it is a big mountain.

[browningboy]

Its coming on winter and deer migrate to different grounds, quite simple really, once the snow starts to fly they head off to winter grazing grounds and or better grounds for overall survival.

[Johnnybear]

Apparently there's 500,000 wolves in BC from what I gather, and they all eat 3 deer a week. YUMMY! :smile:

Where can one obtain this data? I was not aware of these huge numbers. Makes one wonder why there are groups in Victoria for "save the wolf":?.

My main hunting area is riddled with wolf sign and the deer are less frequently seen in the last couple of years. An area I hunt near my work has deer sign declined alot do to a cougar in the area. I agree that these predators push the animals out......as for eating them all I don't know. From what I have read about wolves and books from trappers and guides they do kill for fun or training.

[doubled]

I would say it was probably predators. Deer are very habitual and can be found at the same place at the same time year after year. They move in and out of these areas like clockwork. You can bet your house on it most years. I have several of these places that I hunt and have hunted them for 20 years.

[dunbartr]

Where can one obtain this data? I was not aware of these huge numbers.

500,000???? I have been hunting/working throughout most of the Okanagan for 20 years and I have only ever seen ONE wolf, and that was on a hunting trip up North somewhere.....

Not that I haven't heard them, or seen lots of tracks......, but 500,000 seems quite high? General consensus seems to be that wolf tracks/sightings here in the Okanagan do seem to be on the increase though.... but so are the deer :smile:

[Johnnybear]

500,000???? I have been hunting/working throughout most of the Okanagan for 20 years and I have only ever seen ONE wolf, and that was on a hunting trip up North somewhere.....

Not that I haven't heard them, or seen lots of tracks......, but 500,000 seems quite high? General consensus seems to be that wolf tracks/sightings here in the Okanagan do seem to be on the increase though.... but so are the deer :smile:

Like I was saying I would love a source of this data:cool:.

[igojuone]

Yeah and the same goes for hunters scaring game out of an area. I don't believe this is the case.This was a very warm year and most game didn't start moving until very late in the year.

[Hermen]

Re: Deer left. why ?
"Yeah and the same goes for hunters scaring game out of an area. I don't believe this is the case.This was a very warm year and most game didn't start moving until very late in the year."

Same experience in Williams Lake this fall. Deer showed up later. Probably weather patterns. Still had as good luck as last year.

[hunter1947]

My thoughts on this would be why the deer are not in this area anymore is It could be because of a predator problem earlier in the year.

[KevinB]

Where can one obtain this data? I was not aware of these huge numbers. Makes one wonder why there are groups in Victoria for "save the wolf":?.

I think he was being sarcastic? :?:


My main hunting area is riddled with wolf sign and the deer are less frequently seen in the last couple of years. An area I hunt near my work has deer sign declined a lot do to a cougar in the area. I agree that these predators push the animals out......as for eating them all I don't know. From what I have read about wolves and books from trappers and guides they do kill for fun or training.

Then you need to look for different spots to hunt. Can't expect the same area to keep producing indefinitely. :razz:

I agree with ElkmasterC, everyone has been saying the same thing this year, unusual weather patterns, etc. and lots of hunters are having trouble finding much in what have traditionally been good areas at certain times of year.

Trouble is, a lot of guys will only see an area a few times a year, and their area is only a small part of the landscape...then if they don't see much they come to the conclusion that game numbers are down. Maybe, maybe not - there's a lot of country out there, and if deer aren't in their traditional areas (which is where most hunters go for obvious reasons) then a lot of hunters won't be seeing many deer.




Some of the areas I hunted this fall had low deer numbers compared to what I've previously seen at the same time in past years. Maybe I should have hunted where I haven't usually seen a lot of deer!

[hunter1947]

Some of the areas I hunted this fall had low deer numbers compared to what I've previously seen at the same time in past years. Maybe I should have hunted where I haven't usually seen a lot of deer!

One year I had the same thing happen to me ,no deer left it was hear on the north end of the island.

I used to go up to the north end of Vancouver island hunting deer in the same spot for years ,I used to see around 50 deer on a weekend outing.

One year I went back to the same spot and I only seen two deer all weekend long ,I latter found out that the wolves had pushed the deer out of this area and had taken lots of deer out.

[hunter1947]

Went to check some of my hunting spots. This particular is very scheltered area on small plato ,close to FSR and to water source.It was main bedding area. Typically deer rested here. Several years in the row there was lot of deer signs, dropping,bedding patches and some scrubs. To my surprise I found zero deer signs this year. There is no logging in visinity and I do not think that FSR traffic has changed . No bear signs or anything like that. You can see that old trails were indisturbed for quite some time. Can not figure out what actually has happened. I have seen lot of deer around this area,but they do not bed here anymore. Did anyone seen something like that or have any idea why did it happen ?
Cheers
Sneg


Did you see any sign of wolf scats when you where in this area ??????.

[sneg]

No there was no wolf scats or anything like that. this is east side of Harrison lake. Lot of food around,low elevation,snow is not a factor.I see deer still moving on near by trails (another spot 1-2 km away).But this particular spot does not have any fresh signs. Previously it was full of deer.

[humble hunter]

No there was no wolf scats or anything like that. this is east side of Harrison lake. Lot of food around,low elevation,snow is not a factor.I see deer still moving on near by trails (another spot 1-2 km away).But this particular spot does not have any fresh signs. Previously it was full of deer.

So it was a region 2 area! This year was a strange year for sure. The spots that elkmaster c was talking about, I have been watching all year long, we ended up getting 1 buck out of there last wednesday but prior to that I had only seen a couple of does and one small spike buck (really small). Last year it was full of does and this year nothing. Now we are finally starting to get some snow and I am going in there to set up my trail cam and see if they move in now, as I believe it is their wintering grounds. Last year we had alot of snow early, this year nothing. No reason for the deer to move down. As far as the predator thing goes, there are ALOT of cougars in region 2. Alot more than most poeple know. The deer have been living with them for years. they may move out of an area for a few days from being pursued but they will always come back. I am going to unlock the mystery of blacktail hunting yet!

[hunter1947]

No there was no wolf scats or anything like that. this is east side of Harrison lake. Lot of food around,low elevation,snow is not a factor.I see deer still moving on near by trails (another spot 1-2 km away).But this particular spot does not have any fresh signs. Previously it was full of deer.


LOL ,maybe they moved home and took there loved ones with them ,:lol:.

[hunter1947]

Could it be that they moved to a south slop ????

[sneg]

I think camera is good idea.Will try to do the same... wintering grounds, not sure.last year and year before that deers were at that location all year around.Yeah there is some mistery thing, deer is not all that predictable. at least for me.

[KevinB]

One year I had the same thing happen to me ,no deer left it was hear on the north end of the island.

I used to go up to the north end of Vancouver island hunting deer in the same spot for years ,I used to see around 50 deer on a weekend outing.

One year I went back to the same spot and I only seen two deer all weekend long ,I latter found out that the wolves had pushed the deer out of this area and had taken lots of deer out.

Would this have been back in the late 70's - early 80's Wayne? I was a kid living in Port McNeill then and I remember when the wolf population was pretty high. There were reports of wolves grabbing cats and dogs off of back porches in Hyde Creek. I can remember lots of hunters during that time didn't do very well deer hunting unless they got out and hunted pretty hard. Once we moved down to Black Creek we seemed to do better, I even managed to get a few blacktails once I got old enough. That wasn't until maybe '84 or '85. No idea what wolf numbers are like now on the Island.

[hunter1947]

Would this have been back in the late 70's - early 80's Wayne? I was a kid living in Port McNeill then and I remember when the wolf population was pretty high. There were reports of wolves grabbing cats and dogs off of back porches in Hyde Creek. I can remember lots of hunters during that time didn't do very well deer hunting unless they got out and hunted pretty hard. Once we moved down to Black Creek we seemed to do better, I even managed to get a few blacktails once I got old enough. That wasn't until maybe '84 or '85. No idea what wolf numbers are like now on the Island.
Yes you are correct ,I was hunting just west of Holberg town.

[hunter1947]

What I have seen for deer in the last 3 years is that the numbers are climbing back up.

I only have seen a few deer when out hunting the south end of the island from 1999 through to 2005.

Now I see a handful every time I head out and that is over the entire island ,I have hunted in the last two years from woss down to lake Cowitchan and the numbers are much better now then 3 or four years ago.

How about you others that live past Woss lake and hunt up around port mc Neil and West of there ????.

Have the numbers increased up your way in the past 3 years ????.

The wolf population is still out there at an average number ,but not like it was in the early 80ties.

This is why I want to go trap a few wolves if every thing falls into place if its a go ahead I will order 12 camlock snares and start from there.

I don't want to see things go backwards with the wolf population increasing to the point where we have a very low number of deer left once again ,hell I have my trappers number why not try to get some wolves ,if I don't at least I tryed and whats tryings all about ,it is learning ,right..

[ElkMasterC]

KevinB has it right, and his sarcasm detector is working flawlessly. ;-)

Apparently, there's roughly 9000 wolves in BC right now;

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=954abc01-30d5-4a6d-a7a7-fb8ef0759272&k=66261

(Looks like I'm moving to Rupert)

Up from roughly 5000 in the mid-80's:

http://www.northernlightswildlife.com/caribou-recovery-sample1.pdf

[hunter1947]

KevinB has it right, and his sarcasm detector is working flawlessly. ;-)

Apparently, there's roughly 9000 wolves in BC right now;

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=954abc01-30d5-4a6d-a7a7-fb8ef0759272&k=66261

(Looks like I'm moving to Rupert)

Up from roughly 5000 in the mid-80's:

http://www.northernlightswildlife.com/caribou-recovery-sample1.pdf

Way to many ,we as hunters have to do something about this problem or we might face closures on a number game animals that we are allowed to hunt in GOS regions.

[300ultra]

For those who think that wolves don't clean house i can tell you i have seen it personally logging up chamis bay about 20 years ago every 2nd day we would see chunks of hide scattered up the road for a long ways . The deer would hang out around the tower and loader at night cause the wolves would not come in . This was in the last month of the year ,the following year there was not much sign of deer, I have worked in muchalat inlet ,port McNeil and the mainland . Wolves move in and the carnage begins. In Squamish a big impact I believe is the mountain bikers etc ; there is so much activity in the spring and if it is when they are calving its not good . Also bears have big impact on deer , over abundance of bears they will take the fawns from the doe sometimes while giving berth . the doe may get killed during this time also . I have seen this also .In Europe they have designated areas were people are not allowed to enter during this time , maybe thats what we need to do in heavy populated areas.

[sneg]

have seen huge wolf near squamish and lot of trucks.have seen some trucks near harrison,but all small size.my assumption they were coyotes.may be i m wrong and they are actually wolfs and they scare deer away from that spot.for sure there lot of cougar sign as well. Generally it would be great to understand how thing move around,so could plan you next season. I spend most of my season in higher deer density MU (3-19;6-9;5-2;8-5) and did not get anything.but shot my deers close to LM and VI on first-second day of going.go figure.

[ve7iuq]

For those who think that wolves don't clean house i can tell you i have seen it personally logging up chamis bay about 20 years ago every 2nd day we would see chunks of hide scattered up the road for a long ways . The deer would hang out around the tower and loader at night cause the wolves would not come in . This was in the last month of the year ,the following year there was not much sign of deer, I have worked in muchalat inlet ,port McNeil and the mainland . Wolves move in and the carnage begins. In Squamish a big impact I believe is the mountain bikers etc ; there is so much activity in the spring and if it is when they are calving its not good . Also bears have big impact on deer , over abundance of bears they will take the fawns from the doe sometimes while giving berth . the doe may get killed during this time also . I have seen this also .In Europe they have designated areas were people are not allowed to enter during this time , maybe thats what we need to do in heavy populated areas.
Good wisdom in this post. Wolves certainly can kill most of the game in an area and the rest either leave, or are chased out.
Wild wolves in the bush are very hard to see. Thus, hunters without too much wolf savy, may hunt for two weeks in an area with lots of wolves and not even know the wolves were there.
As mentioned above, bears are terrible predators on big game, including moose, where they kill the calves. We all know, or should know, that bear populations in BC are very high. The bear population in BC now is most likely at an all time record high. From everything I have read, bears, both grizzly and black, were historically not plentiful in BC. After WW2 I don't have to read about it, I was here, and spent a great deal of time in the bush in north-central BC. For the first five years I doubt if I saw a total of more than three adult black bears and no grizzlies.
Until near the end of the 1960s black bear were considered vermin and could be shot anytime. They were always known as predators, so if you were moose hunting and did see a bear you just shot it.
Logging opened up the country for excellent bear habitat and regulations protecting the bears allowed their numbers to skyrocket. So, they are now a major factor in our game populations.

[cariboobill]

I am not sure if we can blame wolves for the reduction of the deer sign. Just like wolves deer have ranges and move in and out of them, depending on seasons, predators etc. While I have seen more wolf sign this year, I have also seen more deer this year that past years. My understanding is more deer, moose, elk... more wolves. From recent visits from MOE staff to our local hunting association, their surveys (few as they conduct) in many areas show an increase of most ungulant populations. But predators increase with their food source, eventually the food source will drop too until they balance out. But with humans in the equation, balance is harder to achieve.

I guess that is what could be happening in your area. In my area (region 5) I am just starting to see more wolf sign and a lot more coyotes, but higher deer populations so far. It could be your deer population has dropped, but sign is hard to judge deer populations, given deer movement, especially this year with the warm late season.

I did not see many bucks down low (large) until late in the season, now they seem to be in their winter grounds. I have only seen one wolf in the past two years, but lots of sign.

[humble hunter]

For those who think that wolves don't clean house i can tell you i have seen it personally logging up chamis bay about 20 years ago every 2nd day we would see chunks of hide scattered up the road for a long ways . The deer would hang out around the tower and loader at night cause the wolves would not come in . This was in the last month of the year ,the following year there was not much sign of deer, I have worked in muchalat inlet ,port McNeil and the mainland . Wolves move in and the carnage begins. In Squamish a big impact I believe is the mountain bikers etc ; there is so much activity in the spring and if it is when they are calving its not good . Also bears have big impact on deer , over abundance of bears they will take the fawns from the doe sometimes while giving berth . the doe may get killed during this time also . I have seen this also .In Europe they have designated areas were people are not allowed to enter during this time , maybe thats what we need to do in heavy populated areas.

In squamish if the mtn bikers want something, they will get it. It is almost sickening how the district of squamish will kiss the special interest groups *sses. As long as it has nothing to do with motorsports or hunting, you bitch about it and you get it. The areas that we hunt now have mountain bike trails through them. No environmental impact studies needed. There is talk that they are trying to move the municipal boundary back as well as the no shooting zone to the nine mile bridge on the mamquam side because of the mtn bikers. I like to mtn bike myself but these *ssholes think they own the bush. Nothing beats coming up to a group of them in the bush, all full of smiles untill they see my bow or rifle on my back then it is looks of disgust. I just smile and wish them a good day. I think I am getting on a rant here, what was this thread about?

[hunter1947]

People don't realize just how many black bears kill fawns in the spring time.

A couple years ago I was a black bear running down the logging road with a fawn in its mouth.

[tooty]

Black bears prey heavily on fawns in spring.Easy pickings.On an other note my neighbor up the hill from us has power line property with horses and barns and such on both sides of the line,very obvious it's his.Mountain bikers came through and said they should always have the right to go through the property and we should get together and petition.I thought his wife was going to shot them.Why do people think power line right of ways on private land are public access?

[ianwuzhere]

ya maybe some more signs needed??
- i am anxiously awaiting to see what next years hunting regs will have in it. i do think they should have no bag limit and long seasons for predators in more areas in the province tho...

[humble hunter]

People don't realize just how many black bears kill fawns in the spring time.

A couple years ago I was a black bear running down the logging road with a fawn in its mouth.

In reply to the bear thing and how it pertains to squamish: the district of squamish has now decided we are going to get curbside recycling. Which everyone has been asking for for years as the recycling stations have turned into garbage dumps for poeple to cheap to go to the landfill. We were all happy about this untill we learned that the garbage is now going to be picked up every other week and in the off week the recycling will be picked up. A 50% reduction in garbage service. I just wrote a lettter to the local paper in response to this asking if dead bears are now going to be considered as "acceptable waste." We are going to have more bears around lower down and I am sure this is going to affect the blacktail fawns as they usually winter and give berth in the low areas. I guess I will start shooting them and putting them in my recycle bin.

[hunter1947]

In reply to the bear thing and how it pertains to squamish: the district of squamish has now decided we are going to get curbside recycling. Which everyone has been asking for for years as the recycling stations have turned into garbage dumps for poeple to cheap to go to the landfill. We were all happy about this untill we learned that the garbage is now going to be picked up every other week and in the off week the recycling will be picked up. A 50% reduction in garbage service. I just wrote a lettter to the local paper in response to this asking if dead bears are now going to be considered as "acceptable waste." We are going to have more bears around lower down and I am sure this is going to affect the blacktail fawns as they usually winter and give berth in the low areas. I guess I will start shooting them and putting them in my recycle bin.


Humble hunter my personal opinion on black bears is the population has exploded over the last few years.

I have always been a firm believer to shoot what I eat and no other.

But I think I might change my thoughts on this black bear problem.

What we should do as hunters is by our two tags for black bears and fill both them.

Give the meat to our friends or others to reduce the bear population ,I would say more about what to do about black bears won't say it on this site ,to many people will jump down you back if mentioned.

[hunter1947]

I am not sure if we can blame wolves for the reduction of the deer sign. Just like wolves deer have ranges and move in and out of them, depending on seasons, predators etc. While I have seen more wolf sign this year, I have also seen more deer this year that past years. My understanding is more deer, moose, elk... more wolves. From recent visits from MOE staff to our local hunting association, their surveys (few as they conduct) in many areas show an increase of most ungulant populations. But predators increase with their food source, eventually the food source will drop too until they balance out. But with humans in the equation, balance is harder to achieve.

I guess that is what could be happening in your area. In my area (region 5) I am just starting to see more wolf sign and a lot more coyotes, but higher deer populations so far. It could be your deer population has dropped, but sign is hard to judge deer populations, given deer movement, especially this year with the warm late season.

I did not see many bucks down low (large) until late in the season, now they seem to be in their winter grounds. I have only seen one wolf in the past two years, but lots of sign.

Your lucky to see a wolf when out hunting ,I have only seen around 10 wolves in 51 years of hunting out there ,believe me there there and you just don't see them ,you get lucky the odd time now and then to see one ,but sightings are fare and few between..

[humble hunter]

Humble hunter my personal opinion on black bears is the population has exploded over the last few years.

I have always been a firm believer to shoot what I eat and no other.

But I think I might change my thoughts on this black bear problem.

What we should do as hunters is by our two tags for black bears and fill both them.

Give the meat to our friends or others to reduce the bear population ,I would say more about what to do about black bears won't say it on this site ,to many people will jump down you back if mentioned.

The only problem is the bears around here are disgusting tasting. Salmon rivers all around me. If I gave the meat to my friends they would never eat game meat again and head down to MEC to campaign. lol. The last one I shot my dog wouldn't eat. I think the bear population has exploded as well. Every time I went for a ride last year I could count on seeing one. I used to see them and think wow thats a nice bear, now they are a just a large rodent. Most guys I know that shoot them just skin them and leave the meat in the bush. Which I have a problem with. I actually would love to take new hunters out bear hunting and get them a bear as long as they took the meat. Maybe in the spring I will post a thread offering to do this.

[KevinB]

Hey Humble, have you tried hunting bears in the spring instead? I don't hunt bears but I know hunters that do, and most of them say spring bear usually tastes much better. They don't find the bears have any taste of salmon or anything. Maybe they eat a lot more salmon on the coast and stay fishy all year around?

BTW, you must have a pretty picky and well fed dog! :-P

Anyway back on the predator-deer thing, it does of course stand to reason that if wolves move into an area, a lot of the deer will leave if they can, and lots of the remainder will end up as wolf scat.

But I need it explained to me how/why wolves can pretty much eat everything in an area before moving on. (I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen, I just want to know they "how" and "why").

Uneducated assumption 1 - wolves move into an area, because it is a good area for them - enough stuff to eat, etc.

If they eat enough of the local ungulates, and a lot of the others leave, then the area now has less stuff to eat. But presumably neighbouring areas still have lots of stuff to eat, especially after a lot of the prey has moved out of the area the wolves are in.

Assumption #2 - wolves tend to favour areas where they have the highest hunting success, i.e. there's more things to eat than next door.

Why then would they remain in an area, much past the point at which it still has lots of easily accessible prey? Once their hunting success starts to drop, I would think that they would tend to move on if they are able.

I realize this is a pretty simplistic way of looking at it, and the problem with that is that complex questions usually have complex answers. Obviously I don't know a heck of a lot about wolves, and there are probably lot of other factors involved, like competition from other packs, pressure from trapping and hunting, difficulty of moving to other areas, etc. I am truly just curious, not trying to poke holes in what anyone else has said. I could look a lot of this stuff up I guess, we have a pretty good library in town, but I'm interested in what people here have to say.

Interesting thread.

cheers

[hunter1947]

I really don't know alot about wolves but I now a little bit about them.

What I understand about wolves is ones it get hard to find prey they move next door or keep going till they find the prey they are looking for.

[humble hunter]

Hey Humble, have you tried hunting bears in the spring instead? I don't hunt bears but I know hunters that do, and most of them say spring bear usually tastes much better. They don't find the bears have any taste of salmon or anything. Maybe they eat a lot more salmon on the coast and stay fishy all year around?

BTW, you must have a pretty picky and well fed dog! :-P

Anyway back on the predator-deer thing, it does of course stand to reason that if wolves move into an area, a lot of the deer will leave if they can, and lots of the remainder will end up as wolf scat.

But I need it explained to me how/why wolves can pretty much eat everything in an area before moving on. (I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen, I just want to know they "how" and "why").

Uneducated assumption 1 - wolves move into an area, because it is a good area for them - enough stuff to eat, etc.

If they eat enough of the local ungulates, and a lot of the others leave, then the area now has less stuff to eat. But presumably neighbouring areas still have lots of stuff to eat, especially after a lot of the prey has moved out of the area the wolves are in.

Assumption #2 - wolves tend to favour areas where they have the highest hunting success, i.e. there's more things to eat than next door.

Why then would they remain in an area, much past the point at which it still has lots of easily accessible prey? Once their hunting success starts to drop, I would think that they would tend to move on if they are able.

I realize this is a pretty simplistic way of looking at it, and the problem with that is that complex questions usually have complex answers. Obviously I don't know a heck of a lot about wolves, and there are probably lot of other factors involved, like competition from other packs, pressure from trapping and hunting, difficulty of moving to other areas, etc. I am truly just curious, not trying to poke holes in what anyone else has said. I could look a lot of this stuff up I guess, we have a pretty good library in town, but I'm interested in what people here have to say.

Interesting thread.

cheers

Hey Kevin: the last one I shot was a spring bear and my dog is a bassett hound (don't ever get one) he would eat tinfoil is there was venison cooked on it. I then took the meat and put it in the crab traps and came up empty again. I have shot bears in the okanogan and they have tasted great but squamish bears in my opinion are unedible. Maybe someone else can chime in that has had some good bear meat in region 2. If they have I will gladly posty exact locations of bears I see in the spring.

[ElkMasterC]

BTW, you must have a pretty picky and well fed dog! :-P


Yeah, he's picky all right, picks your food right off the table when you turn your back, the fat little b*stard. ;-)

Yeah, Kevin, that's how I see it too. If wolves come in, make some kills, and everything gets pushed out, they have to move on, and find game. This whole idea that a pack will haunt an area until everything is dead makes no sense from an evolutionary perspective.
Also, that game animals stand there stupidly and wait to be eaten....uhh yeah.

It's a huge outdoor game of "Blind Man's Bluff", where everyone stays out of reach of the predators by moving around them. (If they can)
People say "Oh, I saw sign that wolves were killing, and deer were scared, (duh!) that means they wiped out the whole herd."
Without a census before and after, this is just subjective misinformation.
No offense guys, but it's a pretty subjective report in most cases, and not very inclusive of facts, just random observations.

Oh, and that bear meat? My Wolf wouldn't eat it either. I cooked a roast of Indian Arm bear, and it stunk up the house, so I gave a roasted shank to Lobo....he looked at me like "WTF am I supposed to do with this?"
He held it gingerly in his teeth, making sure it didn't touch his lips, and promptly buried it in the vegetable garden.
All my tomatoes got blight that year..lol
(Unrelated, I'm sure.)

Man, those bears staaahhhnnnkkkk!

We need more Biologists on this site....ones with the real paperwork...not the Cracker jack stuff. :eek:

Cheers all,
And Happy Honica, or whatever it is you do this time of year! :lol:

EMC

[sneg]

there is lot of predators in Squamish area- wolfs,blackies , G-bears and so on. However there is healthy number of moose ,elk,deer and small game.Somehow it is all balanced out.Met one hunter who saw some G-bears on harrison east. i did not see any signs personally,but can not imagine why it would not be there.guess it can scare deer and make it move out somwhere else. If I could understand whole animal world- what,where and why they do - I would be reach.

[ElkMasterC]

there is lot of predators in Squamish area- wolfs,blackies , G-bears and so on. However there is healthy number of moose ,elk,deer and small game.Somehow it is all balanced out.Met one hunter who saw some G-bears on harrison east. i did not see any signs personally,but can not imagine why it would not be there.guess it can scare deer and make it move out somwhere else. If I could understand whole animal world- what,where and why they do - I would be reach.

I've never seen a G-Bear in Squamish, but I DID almost run into one on a trike once, Harrison East side........no gun, nothing. We were on our way to find those hotsprings, and I came around a corner, and he's standing in the logging road. We both went "YIKES!" and he split.
The prints were the size of dinner plates in the mud...unreal.
Cool experience...I'm glad he didn't wanna eat me. :smile:

[KevinB]

Yeah, he's picky all right, picks your food right off the table when you turn your back, the fat little b*stard. ;-)


I have some friends with 2 of those things (basset hounds I mean, not stinky bear roasts!), you'd think with the seal flipper legs that the table would be safe. But I swear they can stretch out like invisible slinky's and swipe stuff from 10 feet away. It's unreal! :eek:

Maybe your dog was just burying that roast to make sure it got even tastier?


Maybe we can pay someone to spray all the deer with ground up stinky bear roast, that should offer good predator control.



:razz:

[sneg]

Nice. I got to see blackie 3 m away from me while I was sitting in tube in hot springs.It was cool experience.guess I would have ever more exitement if it was G-bear. Have seen 2 G-bears pouched in Squamish. They removed hide ,bur rest was just beside the road.lot of hunters saw carcases and some were going to report. On harrison that clear creek FSR hold good number of blackies as well.