Bullet spread at 100 and 200 yrds...MOA??

[RYY]

Hello,
I am admittedly near new and just returned from the range. My question is on store bought ammo how tight of a grouping is considered accurate? I went shooting for my first time with my new gun last Friday I was shooting Federal Fusion 180 grain out of a Tikka T3lite 300 wsm. At 100 yards in four shots I had essentially made a sq pattern with about 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" speration when looking at them perpendicular to one another they had about 2 1/4" when looking at them diagonal to one another. It seemed at 200 yrds the pattern was even tighter, would that have been by chance? Would that grouping be acceptable?
Also I have been wondering what does MOA stand for in shooting lingo?

Thanx
RYY

[Squire]

MOA is 'minute of angle' and it translates to 1" @ 100yds

You are not shooting bad for being new. If you get some recoil relief you should tighten up your groups. Or not, try different ammo and see if some group better than others - every rifle is different.

[Squire]

BTW - I get sub MOA groups at 100 yds and 200 yds with Winchester Supreme 150 grn Ballistic Silvertips.

Some on this site will tell you that there are better hunting bullets and they may be right but it is very satisfying to punch clover-leafs in paper too.

[TimberPig]

Hello,
I am admittedly near new and just returned from the range. My question is on store bought ammo how tight of a grouping is considered accurate? I went shooting for my first time with my new gun last Friday I was shooting Federal Fusion 180 grain out of a Tikka T3lite 300 wsm. At 100 yards in four shots I had essentially made a sq pattern with about 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" speration when looking at them perpendicular to one another they had about 2 1/4" when looking at them diagonal to one another. It seemed at 200 yrds the pattern was even tighter, would that have been by chance? Would that grouping be acceptable?
Also I have been wondering what does MOA stand for in shooting lingo?

Thanx
RYY

To get your group size, measure the outermost bullet holes from outside to outside, then subtract your caliber from the measurement.

It sounds like you are shooting ~2.25" groups, which if they are from a benchrest are acceptable, but you will likely get better results after more practice. With loads it likes, the gun should do much better. Keep practicing and you will likely shrink those groups, but remember, very few animals are shot off benchrests in the field. Don't forget to practice other shooting positions that you are more likely to use while hunting as well.

[Legi0n]

Hello,
I am admittedly near new and just returned from the range. My question is on store bought ammo how tight of a grouping is considered accurate? I went shooting for my first time with my new gun last Friday I was shooting Federal Fusion 180 grain out of a Tikka T3lite 300 wsm. At 100 yards in four shots I had essentially made a sq pattern with about 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" speration when looking at them perpendicular to one another they had about 2 1/4" when looking at them diagonal to one another. It seemed at 200 yrds the pattern was even tighter, would that have been by chance? Would that grouping be acceptable?
Also I have been wondering what does MOA stand for in shooting lingo?

Thanx
RYY

mail me the target (or a picture of it) and I'll tell you all about your groups

[Tarp Man]

RYY does your Tikka have a Limbsaver pad on it? I highly recommend one. They are worth every penny at $45. I was way more comfortable shooting my T3 .30/06 with it vs. the stock pad. It therefore tightened my groups from just over 1 MOA for 3 shots to a range of .45 MOA to 1 MOA consistently. This is all from factory ammo. It also seems to like the cheap stuff best. Winchester Silvertip in 150gr, Federal (Speer) Grand Slam in 150gr, Federal Power Point 150gr and 180gr all fly true.

This is unsual for a gun to shoot factory loads like this, but not uncommon for a Tikka. My particular gun seems to like non-tipped bullets, perhaps as they contact the lands at an earlier point than bullets like a Swift A-Frame or Federal Fusion or Nosler Partition. It also seems to like mid-grain range bullets best. 165gr is best, followed by 150gr and then 180gr. Best yet, they all shoot to within 1 MOA of POI (point of impact).

Try to find a cheap bullet that shoots straight and spend LOTS of time at the range shooting from field positions. Remember if you are prone, to watch the eye relief behind the scope. They bite hard from a light weight magnum!

[rishu_pepper]

Not to nitpick or anything, but MOA stands for "Minute of Arc", not angle as many (including me before) are often confused with.

When measuring your group size at 100 yards, take a caliper (ruler may suffice but obviously not as accurate), find the two holes that are farthest from each other, and you have two choices:

1. Centre to Centre: find the centre of one of the holes and use that as a reference point, and measure it to the centre of the other far hole. The result is your group size (less accurate)

2. Edge to Edge: using the outside edge of one hole, measure it to the outside edge of the other hole, then subtract it with your bullet diameter (more accurate)

At 100 yard, a 1 MOA size group is 1"; using that logic, at 200 yard (double the distance of 100 yard, the MOA index), a 1 MOA size group is 2", and so on.

Many would probably agree that 1 MOA accuracy is more than enough for general hunting purposes (300 yard or so). Varminting may require better accuracy (sub-MOA, half-MOA) as the targets are often smaller and farther. With the proper handloads, both my custom 25-06 and 7WSM shoot less than half-MOA, providing the nut behind the bolt does the job :biggrin:

Measuring group size in 3 shots is usually the minimum, 5 is better, 10 is best (more the merrier!).

[KodiakHntr]

Wiki says:

Minute of angle (MOA) is the measurement (in fractions of degrees) of a ballistic round's deviation from its initial heading due to gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity) and/or the effect of air resistance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_resistance) on velocity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity). Informally known as a "Bullet's Trajectory" or "the rainbow effect". Long range weapons must account for this effect because a fired round falls at a quadratic rate. Weapons such as large caliber rifles use scopes with adjustments for distance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance) and windage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windage).
The exact measure of MOA is 1.0471996 at 100 yards of distance. MOA is a quadratic effect so 1" of MOA at 100 yards would equate to .5235998" at 50 yards, 2.0943992" at 200 yards, 3.1415988" at 300 yards and so on. Most high-end rifle scopes used by military snipers, law enforcement snipers, and hunters are equipped with MOA adjustment knobs which provide the shooter with MOA adjustment. Depending on the scope, the adjustments are measured in "clicks" of the knob which equate to a manufacturer set adjustment. For example, one click may be 1/2 MOA for every click while another scope may have 1/4 MOA adjustments, which is considered to be a finer MOA adjustment.

[rishu_pepper]

And I direct you to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_arc

;)

Tomato, to-mah-to. :cool:

[Barracuda]

2. Edge to Edge: using the inside edge of one hole, measure it to the far edge of the other hole, then subtract it with your bullet diameter (more accurate)
.

not sure if i am understanding what you are trying to explain?



simply going inside of the hole to the outside of the hole will give the distance of a center to center measurement.



If you were to subtract the bullet diameter as described you would end up with an inside to inside distance.



if your initial measurement was outside to outside minus the diameter then that would give you the correct distance, was this what you meant?

[KodiakHntr]

And I direct you to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_of_arc

;)

Tomato, to-mah-to. :cool:


Saw that too, wasn't disputing your post above, was just pointing out that it isn't actually 1 inch....

Because after all, we aren't nitpicking right?...........grin

[KodiakHntr]

2. Edge to Edge: using the inside edge of one hole, measure it to the far edge of the other hole, then subtract it with your bullet diameter (more accurate)



No wonder Rishu can shoot such tiny groups..........

[rishu_pepper]

if your initial measurement was outside to outside minus the diameter then that would give you the correct distance, was this what you meant?

Yes, that was what I was trying to say. Oops. :)


No wonder Rishu can shoot such tiny groups..........

You got me. :lol:

And I edited my original post so you guys won't keep hassling me :biggrin:

[Dannybuoy]

Hello,
I am admittedly near new and just returned from the range. My question is on store bought ammo how tight of a grouping is considered accurate? I went shooting for my first time with my new gun last Friday I was shooting Federal Fusion 180 grain out of a Tikka T3lite 300 wsm. At 100 yards in four shots I had essentially made a sq pattern with about 1 1/4" to 1 3/4" speration when looking at them perpendicular to one another they had about 2 1/4" when looking at them diagonal to one another. It seemed at 200 yrds the pattern was even tighter, would that have been by chance? Would that grouping be acceptable?
Also I have been wondering what does MOA stand for in shooting lingo?

Thanx
RYY
The probable reason your pattern was tighter at 200 than 100 is your bullets are spiralling a bit wider at the closer range and tightening up as they get out to 200 yds .... probably a bit Hot ....

[wolverine]

You know what? If you just started out you are doing great. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. Find a mentor at your local gun club and learn from someone who you trust. Yeah, all guns shoot differently, but for hunting applications really not so much as to cause you any great concern. Different ammo shoots differently so find one you like and stick with it instead of jumping around all over the place. If you are shooting the groups you say you are then you are shooting just fine. Welcome to the fraternity! :razz:

[rishu_pepper]

You know what? If you just started out you are doing great. Practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. Find a mentor at your local gun club and learn from someone who you trust. Yeah, all guns shoot differently, but for hunting applications really not so much as to cause you any great concern. Different ammo shoots differently so find one you like and stick with it instead of jumping around all over the place. If you are shooting the groups you say you are then you are shooting just fine. Welcome to the fraternity! :razz:

Agreed. When I started out shooting centrefire (308 Win), I was happy to get it on paper, never mind groups! :shock:

[Bow Walker]

If you are shooting Federals - try the Vital Shock, it is a better (a bit more expensive too) 'factory bullet' than the Fusions. Much more consistant, IMHO.

todbartell can either verify or de-bunk the above statement. Maybe even the tb-wannabe, rishu :razz::redface:

[rishu_pepper]

todbartell can either verify or de-bunk the above statement. Maybe even the tb-wannabe, rishu :razz::redface:

Sorry, I don't shoot factory :razz:

[brian]

Luck plays a huge part in some peoples claims of sub MOA groups. The only way to eliminate luck is to shoot a lot and learn how well your rifles shoot and how well you shoot. You and your rifles performance will be gauged on repeatability. Your 200 yard groups being tighter than your 100 yard groups could be your bullets going to sleep and getting more accurate at farther distances, or it could be luck. Without repeatability you will not know. I will say this, if you are a new shooter you are not in a position yet to gauge your rifles accuracy because you simply do not know your own accuracy yet. Your rifle may be a far better shooter than you are a capable of, or you may be a better shooter than your rifle is capable of. You won't know until you put a lot of bullets on paper. Add them all together to get a whole picture. A lucky clover leaf followed by a 2 MOA group does not mean that you or your rifle are sub MOA shooters.

Learning to diagnose groups will help you with your shooting. Like if you see a lot of diagonal shots pulling to the right and you are a right handed shooter, you could be pulling the trigger. Also don't be afraid to do some dry firing at the range and see if anything you do during shooting is pulling your cross hairs off target.

[Will]

...about 2 1/4" when looking at them diagonal to one another. It seemed at 200 yrds the pattern was even tighter,
If your "New" and shooting 2 1/4" or tighter 200 yard groups you are a good shot and I'd say that rifle is a shooter.

That accuracy is just fine for a Hunting rifle........practise lots and Go kill a deer........there much bigger then 2"s ! ;-)

[knockturnal]

MOA, "minute of angle." Dividing a circle into 360 degrees, then each degree contains 60 minutes. One MOA demarcates 1.0472" per 100 yards of distance.

[RYY]

Thank you all for your above comments and advice,
I installed a limbsaver last week and headed back to the range. Grouping of 5 shots with 180 grainFederal Fusion at 100 yrds was about 1 3/4 inch plus/minus and way nicer shooting with the limbsaver. My question now is when does a person decide to sight in at 100yrd or 200 yrds What is the deciding factor and or decision to sight in at one or the other distances. I will be doing mostly off island hunting and at what distances, who knows.

Thoughts, advice, input and attitude all appreciate!!!


RYY

[todbartell]

I've always thought it was a little silly to sight dead on at 100 yards for anything with a velocity of 2000+ fps. If I was you I would put it about 2" high at 100 and you wont have to worry about hold out to almost 300 yards with the 300WSM

[Mr. Dean]

I like to sight in for maximum Point Blank Range.

My .300 Winnie is zeroed for 300 yards. As long as I can hold center mass on the vital zone of a deer from where I am sitting, on out to 300yds.,,,, it's dead. The bullets travel remains in the kill zone.

For closer shots (100yds or so), I error on holding a little low to make up for "what ifs" and that periodic 1 1/2 inch group.

The only way to know if this works is to go out and do a lot of practice at various ranges. It also helps if you know what a deer looks like through the scope @ 300yds.... He ain't all that big and people tend to think they're further out than they really are.


I call this method "the cheap mans range finder". With a little practice, it works pretty effectively and once instilled, a no-brainer. I should know as I have taken deer this way from 20ft -----> 300+ yards.

.... And I'm about as dumb as a post. :redface:

[bc sportsman]

Mr. Dean's Point Blank Range method is excellent. I'm hoping he doesn't mind me jumping in and explaining how I do this. It might differ from his method.

1) Determine what the kill zone size is for your animal species. It may be 4" above and 4" below center for deer, 8" above or below for moose etc when aiming dead center broadside for lungs. And please remember, I am using these figures as an example. If you thing the kill zone is larger, then rework these figures accordingly. For this example, lets use deer.

2) Look up the ballistics for your caliber and bullet weight. Find the max range where your bullet velocity will give expansion (usually about 2000 fps depending on how tough your bullet is). Lets say you are shooting a 180 gr bullet out of a 300 Win Mag and your muzzle velocity is 3000 fps. You look up your ballistic tables and find that you can go all the way to 500 yds till you hit 2000 fps. So...that's theoretically your max range for good bullet expansion and reasonable penetration.

3) Next go to the range or out into the country, assume typical shooting position for a long shot (perhaps lying prone with a pack for support or squatting with a stump for support) and shoot at targets to determine groups at distances of 100/200/300/400/500 yds etc. Let's pretend that your groups under these realistic conditions and ranges are 2"/4"/8"/12"/18"/24". Remember that a 2" group is +/- 1" of your point of aim or in other words, one half of your group size.

4) You should assess yourself as not good enough to shoot at a deer at beyond 250 yds (interpolated group size to be 6") because after you take into unknowns such as wind, you are likely going to wound or miss if you shoot further than 250 yds with a kill zone of 8" ...even though you take the time to aim carefully. So, you decide that you will only shoot to 250 yds for deer (8" target).

5) So, now we get to point blank range. You want to be able to aim dead on a deer all the way out to 250 yds without having to compensate for distance anywhere from 0 yds to 250 yrds. Your 3000 fps ballistic tables show that if you sight in at +2.5" at 100 yrds, you will be +2" at 200 yds and dead on at 250 yds. So, add and subtract 1/2 of the group diameter you got when practicing at 100/200/250 ranges and you will get 1.5 to 3.5" high at 100 yds (2.5 +/- 1"), 0 to 4" high at 200 yds (2" +/- 2"), -3 to 3" high at 250 yds (0" +/- 3").

So, if you aim dead center, your vertical height will range from -3" to + 4" high all the way out to 250 yds if you aim dead center of the kill zone. That brings you to exactly within the outside diameter of the kill zone for your deer. Now remember that we are talking about the vertical range variation. Your group size for 250 yds was estimated at 6" so you will be +/- 3" to the right or left of your point of aim. Don't forget to compensate for wind.

Of course, if you are a better shot than the example I gave, you will be able to have a longer PBR for your deer...all the way out to 300, maybe 350 yds.

Now, lets go to the moose example...16" vertical kill zone (8" above or below dead center lungs). Use the same point of aim (2.5" at 100 yds). At 300 yds, you will be -3.5 low so your vertical height range above/below dead center point of aim will be from -7.5" to +0.5" high (-3.5" +/- 4"). That's pretty close to the edge of the bottom half of your kill zone so...you can aim dead center all the way out to 300 yds.

So, what do you do for that 400 yd moose..? Aim for the top bit of hair. Your ballistic tables tell you that your bullet will drop 15" below your point of aim. Your accuracy at 400 yds is max +/-9" (thats an 18" group). Subtract 9" from 15" and the highest your bullet should go is droping 6" below the top of the hair that was your point of aim. At the other end, add 9" and the lowest your bullet drop will be is 24" below the top of the hair (lower lung area for a typical big moose). For a moose, this potential bullet vertical range is from the hump or shoulder down to the lower lungs after taking into account your typically abilities to be accurate.

So, for moose...aim dead on all the way out to 300 yds, hold high on hair at 400 yds using the ballistics I quoted.