Questions for the sheep hunters

[MattW]

With my hunting season all but over for this year I'm starting to do my research and work on plans for next years hunts. One hunt I really want to try is for Stones sheep, the problem is I've never hunted sheep and none of my hunting buddies ever have either. I feel I'm prepared as far as guns, gear and fitness what I'm wondering about is where to go. I'm not asking for your spots but more how do you do your research, how do you give yourself the best possible chance at getting in to some sheep. Of course I can look in the synopsis and see where the seasons are but from Abbotsford they are most often 12 hours drive or more which is a long ways to go with no clue. I don't mind a long hike and I don't mind a plane ride but I want to do all I can to have the walk or flight take me to some sheep. So really the question is, where to start the research? Thanks in advance and please feel free to PM me.
Matt

[kennyj]

I would start by looking in the BC Record book.
kenny

[Orangethunder]

A bit of research on the good old interweb will give you some clues as to sheep densities and distribution. I would then cross reference that map with one showing access, rec atlas as a minimum. Then set your budget for both time and $$. This should narrow your search a little.

One may also want to check out some outfitters websites to see what kind of rams they take and generally where they are.

Beyond that I think you may be looking for hens teeth...:razz:

[bigwhiteys]

http://www.tourismnorthernrockies.ca/things_hunting.php

Should get you started...

Carl

[Sitkaspruce]

Use the search engine on here....

Lot and lots and lots and lots of info on here about sheep hunting.

oh and it is Stone Sheep.....

time for bed

Cheers

SS

[goatdancer]

My last experience with the Toad River area was a bust. Too many wolves have devastated the sheep population up there. Good luck.

[bigwhiteys]

My last experience with the Toad River area was a bust. Too many wolves have devastated the sheep population up there. Good luck.

Wolves devastated the sheep...? Not their usual prey. hmmmmm....


oh and it is Stone Sheep.....

Actually I think he was right... Stone's Sheep named after Andrew J. Stone. ;)

Carl

[MattW]

Thanks to all, some good ideas here. I've never actually seen a BC record book before, where could I get a look at that?

[goatdancer]

We saw lots of wolves but not many sheep. No rams, a few caribou, and one moose in a week. Maybe it was the 2 legged wolves that got all the rams. A local taxidermist with connections up that way told us about the wolf problem. Since we never actually saw anything eating anything else, maybe it was just a hunting pressure problem.

[PGK]

We saw lots of wolves but not many sheep. No rams, a few caribou, and one moose in a week. Maybe it was the 2 legged wolves that got all the rams. A local taxidermist with connections up that way told us about the wolf problem. Since we never actually saw anything eating anything else, maybe it was just a hunting pressure problem.

FYI, studies done in the MK indicate sheep are not a large part of a wolf's diet. I would be willing to bet it's hunting pressure putting the Toad down.

[bigwhiteys]

FYI, studies done in the MK indicate sheep are not a large part of a wolf's diet.

Before the studies it was apparent to those who lived in the region... Wolves are a much bigger threat to the Moose and Caribou.


I would be willing to bet it's hunting pressure putting the Toad down.

I'd say goatdancer just didn't find the rams on that hunt. They aren't hiding behind every tree and they aren't on every mountain but they are definitely there!

Carl

[goatdancer]

We covered quite a bit of territory up there, not just around Toad River and didn't run into many sheep hunters. Maybe that should have told us something. What we did learn was that it would probably require horses or a plane ride way back in order to have a chance at a Stone.

Where can a guy get info on the studies for the MK? I've got most of the maps for that area from McIlhennay & Associates cause the ones F&W sent us were totally useless. I'm getting too long in the tooth to spend 3 days packing in a camp and then have to climb mountains for 8 or 10 more days. 3 or 4 days of climbing would be OK.

[bigwhiteys]

We covered quite a bit of territory up there, not just around Toad River and didn't run into many sheep hunters.

If this was this past year hunting pressure was down considerably, tourism in general around the region slowed right down due to the gas prices. This is right from the mouths of people I know who live there.


What we did learn was that it would probably require horses or a plane ride way back in order to have a chance at a Stone.

Horses would be a plus that's for sure but if you can hike for a few days there is no reason you cannot be into some wicked sheep country and see legal rams.

Here are some links to studies that have been done on Stone's Sheep.

http://www.muskwa-kechika.com/trustfund/projectsdesc.asp

http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/wld/documents/techpub/r9/r9.html

http://www.synergyecology.ca/S8Msheep/

Carl

[one-shot-wonder]

We saw lots of wolves but not many sheep. No rams, a few caribou, and one moose in a week. Maybe it was the 2 legged wolves that got all the rams. A local taxidermist with connections up that way told us about the wolf problem. Since we never actually saw anything eating anything else, maybe it was just a hunting pressure problem.

There is definately a strong Okanagan contingent hunting that neck of the woods, due partly to that "local taxidermist".

Still rams in there.....you just got to know where to go and can't be afraid to work for them.

[PGK]

There is definately a strong Okanagan contingent hunting that neck of the woods, due partly to that "local taxidermist".

Still rams in there.....you just got to know where to go and can't be afraid to work for them.

What the hell does that mean exactly? Work for them? I'm told over and over by the successful guys that this is a GLASSING game. Sit your ass down with a good FOV and pick em out of the rocks. I've never heard a successful sheep hunter tell me he wore out a pair of boots chasing them down!! I think doing your homework means a lot more than wearing out boot leather!

That said, I've never been up. I'm going on what I've heard over the years from consistently successful groups and a GO friend.

[MattW]

Carl-thanks for the thoughts and the reading material, much appreciated
goatdancer-who do you talk to at McIlhennay about getting maps?

as an aside, did anyone see the article on the Muskwa-Ketchika in National Geographic, my brother showed it to me the other day

[bigwhiteys]

What the hell does that mean exactly? Work for them?


While it is a glassing game, they don't come trotting down the mountain for you once you find them! It's WORK to get to them.



Sit your ass down with a good FOV and pick em out of the rocks.


You could stare at a ram all friggen day and not even know he's there!!! Picking em out of the rocks ain't easy. Hence why the best glassing is early morn and eve... When they are out of the rocks and feeding.

Once in the rocks, you're basically waiting for them to get up and turnaround or take a shit... Lots of patience!


as an aside, did anyone see the article on the Muskwa-Ketchika in National Geographic, my brother showed it to me the other day

Yes, they have some great pics. My mother-in-laws friend was on that trip with Wayne. She's a biologist.

Carl

[BCrams]

While it is a glassing game, they don't come trotting down the mountain for you once you find them! It's WORK to get to them.

More often than not....yep.

You could stare at a ram all friggen day and not even know he's there!!! Picking em out of the rocks ain't easy. Hence why the best glassing is early morn and eve... When they are out of the rocks and feeding.

This is likely the biggest reason guys are unsuccessful. Not enough patience glassing. Pretty comical how a guy can spend 20 minutes glassing a basin and declare no rams / sheep around.

Once in the rocks, you're basically waiting for them to get up and turnaround or take a shit... Lots of patience!

No kidding!!


...........

[bridger]

I have lived in the peace for 44 yrs and have hunted sheep each year and have served on several sheep hunting committee's. in addition i know the majority of sheep guides and if anyone thinks wolves are not a major issue in the decline of stone sheep in 7b they are sadly misinformed. in the mid 80's the moe reduced the wolf population considerably in a very contrevesial program. what wasn't an issue how ever was how the sheep population responded. three years after the wolf reduction the total harvest of stone sheep in region 7b (combined resident and non resident) was a high of 365 rams it stayed that way for several years until wolf numbers rebounded. the combined allowable harvest is now 181 rams. the sheep population has dropped from an estimated 15,000 to less than 6000 now. sheep hunting in region 7b is tough right now as outfitters hunt the accessible areas along the alaska highway right at the start of the season as do lots of resident hunters. if i were a new sheep hunter i would hunt the rocky mtn trench and be prepared to hike a long ways from either the river or one of the lakes in the area. the sheep have stood up better in the keckika, gataga, and turnagin river systems than they have on the east slope good luck

[boxhitch]

oh and it is Stone Sheep.....


Steve. And his boys would be Stone Sheep Steve's Stones.
And if he smoked Hippy-Hay it would be ......



Actually I think he was right... Stone's Sheep named after Andrew J. Stone. :wink:

[Skeena Hunter 1]

Moody
Boreal
Colt
Dall
Denatiah(sp)
Blue sheep
Little Blue Sheep(if your pilot is suicidal)
Crooked Horn
Little Beale
Nuttlude(sp)
Cry lake
Cartmel(draw only)

All these lakes have sheep within a days walk, some within an hour. if you want to fly in these are all good choices, but some have more pressure than others.

Good luck!

[bigwhiteys]

I have lived in the peace for 44 yrs and have hunted sheep each year and have served on several sheep hunting committee's. in addition i know the majority of sheep guides and if anyone thinks wolves are not a major issue in the decline of stone sheep in 7b they are sadly misinformed.

My family outfitted in 7B primarily for sheep and likely served or had input on the same committees you did. I am going to ask about the wolf problem.


sheep hunting in region 7b is tough right now as outfitters hunt the accessible areas along the alaska highway right at the start of the season as do lots of resident hunters.

You're talking about a very small number of paying clients that are taken into areas right off the highway and it certainly isn't the norm for guys that are paying $30k+ for a hunt. You are right though there is lots of resident pressure... Most of it walking right by the sheep!


if i were a new sheep hunter i would hunt the rocky mtn trench and be prepared to hike a long ways from either the river or one of the lakes in the area.

There you go...

Carl

[bigwhiteys]

Moody
Boreal
Colt
Dall
Denatiah(sp)
Blue sheep
Little Blue Sheep(if your pilot is suicidal)
Crooked Horn
Little Beale
Nuttlude(sp)
Cry lake
Cartmel(draw only)

So if you have a trip planned for one of these places next year it now looks like you'll have company!

Carl

[karlgotch]

Little Blue Sheep(if your pilot is suicidal)


:mrgreen: :wink:

[boxhitch]

Moody
Boreal
Colt
Dall
Denatiah(sp)
Blue sheep
Little Blue Sheep(if your pilot is suicidal)
Crooked Horn
Little Beale
Nuttlude(sp)
Cry lake
Cartmel(draw only)

All these lakes have sheep within a days walk, some within an hour. if you want to fly in these are all good choices, but some have more pressure than others.

Good luck!
Pelly
Tucho
Johiah
Glacial
Eaglehead
Butterfly
Mess
King Salmon
Victoria

[PGK]

Bridger, the science does not support your claim. That's all. And we're talking about hear-say from almost 30 years ago. 30 years is a long time buddy. I always find it a little bit amusing that the old timers will spout off about what happened 30 years ago. Has no real basis in this day and age. Sorry. And from what I saw and heard this year, sheep were dropping like flies left and right. I think your post is designed to keep residents out!

[hitch]

I guide in the toad river area and the wolves ARE a problem! We have way too many wolves in our area, in my opinion. Still lots of rams around thou. Many factors go into a successful sheep hunt. There is lots of resident pressure near the highways,this year was no different. Glassing is key. Knowing what ram mountains look like is key too. Not every basin or mountain will have rams or even sheep for that matter.

[one-shot-wonder]

What the hell does that mean exactly? Work for them?

Work in many different forms.....Glassing for one, it isn't a short lived excercise...pan left, pan right.....huh no sheep here, let's go! You have work hard at glassing 2 and 3 times over sometimes to pick some of those sheep up. It gets especially difficult when the rocks have patchy snow hanging around and everything looks grey and white.

Like mentioned if a guy thinks he can take his road warrior ass stone sheep hunting up the Toad then he will be picking up ewes and lambs only.....Rams aren't generally hanging around the Hwy or Old Mine roads. You have to prepared to hike, and that is before a ram even enters one's glasses.


I'm told over and over by the successful guys that this is a GLASSING game. Sit your ass down with a good FOV and pick em out of the rocks. I've never heard a successful sheep hunter tell me he wore out a pair of boots chasing them down!! I think doing your homework means a lot more than wearing out boot leather!

That said, I've never been up. I'm going on what I've heard over the years from consistently successful groups and a GO friend.

Well Tinney you go and wear your felt packs up sheep hunting and get yourself a nice and easy Ram.........Maybe a sheep hunt is in order for you before you run your mouth.

I know a few GO's too........woohooo!!!:roll:

[brno375]

I really want to try for Stone's sheep...I feel I'm prepared as far as guns, gear and fitness what I'm wondering about is where to go. I don't mind a long hike.

Between Mt Edziza Park and HWY 37

[bigwhiteys]

I guide in the toad river area and the wolves ARE a problem!

I don't think anybody is disputing that fact that wolves are a problem... It's the fact that sheep aren't really the main staple in their diet... Sure they kill some every year but it's not their primary food source. More of an opportunity meal if it arises. Eagles will also take a toll on young lambs...

Carl

[GoatGuy]

Between Mt Edziza Park and HWY 37

Nice to see you're still kicking it.

Both sides pretty much all the way to Watson.

Can be spotty in places but generally there are sheep and some good ones to boot.

I'd start a little south of Edziza by the bottom of my small foot and run across to two male siblings and head north from there.:wink:

[GoatGuy]

I have lived in the peace for 44 yrs and have hunted sheep each year and have served on several sheep hunting committee's. in addition i know the majority of sheep guides and if anyone thinks wolves are not a major issue in the decline of stone sheep in 7b they are sadly misinformed. in the mid 80's the moe reduced the wolf population considerably in a very contrevesial program. what wasn't an issue how ever was how the sheep population responded. three years after the wolf reduction the total harvest of stone sheep in region 7b (combined resident and non resident) was a high of 365 rams it stayed that way for several years until wolf numbers rebounded. the combined allowable harvest is now 181 rams. the sheep population has dropped from an estimated 15,000 to less than 6000 now. sheep hunting in region 7b is tough right now as outfitters hunt the accessible areas along the alaska highway right at the start of the season as do lots of resident hunters. if i were a new sheep hunter i would hunt the rocky mtn trench and be prepared to hike a long ways from either the river or one of the lakes in the area. the sheep have stood up better in the keckika, gataga, and turnagin river systems than they have on the east slope good luck

There are papers out of Alaska documenting the effects of wolves/predation on Dall's as well. Wolves were reduced, population came up, died off in a bad winter (perhaps some density-dependent issues). Wolves bounced back (no predator control) and the sheep were held at a lower level. Predator populations and mortality was really the only factor that changed. The sheep population was held well below the historic level.


Naturally you also run into higher mortality in the male segment of the population, even more so in sheep after 8 yrs (the part we hunt).

Elliott has some stuff floating around somewhere from the time period you're talking about. I can't find it on my computer but it essentially showed that recruitment came up for all prey species but that predator control needed to be an ongoing effort and that it was costly.

I'm sure apparent competition theory fits as well. While sheep may not constitute a large part of wolves diets when you have a higher biomass on the ground (thousands of elk) you have more predators. Through incidence the likely-hood of mortality is increased.

5% of 100 is 5, 5% of 500 is 50 - trying to keep it simple.

[Ambush]

Wolves eat sheep? Yes. We have a bit of video of the same two wolves chasing sheep on two different occasions. They aren't doing it for exercise. They do it because it works sometimes. And before you ask, no we didn't shoot them because we had no guns.

I'd say, decide realisticaly how far you are capable of hiking, then pick a lake from the list provided. It's all sheep country, just that the country close to the lakes has been shot out.

[MattW]

Thanks again to all. Certainly some stuff to look into here and it looks like I've got a few weeks worth of research just with these ideas.

[GoatGuy]

I don't think anybody is disputing that fact that wolves are a problem... It's the fact that sheep aren't really the main staple in their diet... Sure they kill some every year but it's not their primary food source. More of an opportunity meal if it arises. Eagles will also take a toll on young lambs...

Carl

If you're using it as a % of diet through incidence you need to look at the total primary prey population (moose/elk), predator population and then look at mortality of secondary prey (sheep in this case).

The coles notes version - more wolves = more dead sheep. On top of that this doesn't consider the habitat or lack thereof in 7B orrrrrrrrrrrrr competition which may exist with other species. Not too far off from caribou.

All those elk that are wandering around not being hunted in the northern half of 7B are going to bit hunters and outfitters in the but in a big way.

[GoatGuy]

I have lived in the peace for 44 yrs and have hunted sheep each year and have served on several sheep hunting committee's. in addition i know the majority of sheep guides and if anyone thinks wolves are not a major issue in the decline of stone sheep in 7b they are sadly misinformed. in the mid 80's the moe reduced the wolf population considerably in a very contrevesial program. what wasn't an issue how ever was how the sheep population responded. three years after the wolf reduction the total harvest of stone sheep in region 7b (combined resident and non resident) was a high of 365 rams it stayed that way for several years until wolf numbers rebounded. the combined allowable harvest is now 181 rams. the sheep population has dropped from an estimated 15,000 to less than 6000 now. sheep hunting in region 7b is tough right now as outfitters hunt the accessible areas along the alaska highway right at the start of the season as do lots of resident hunters. if i were a new sheep hunter i would hunt the rocky mtn trench and be prepared to hike a long ways from either the river or one of the lakes in the area. the sheep have stood up better in the keckika, gataga, and turnagin river systems than they have on the east slope good luck

By the way welcome on board.

It will be great getting some history and some of the facts from someone who's been around as long as you have.


Welcome to the show.

[boxhitch]

Predators are opportunistic feeders. They'll try anything.
Wolves may not be hard on sheep in a generalizing kind of way, but specific populations can be devistated before the wolf pack moves out or dies. If a family takes up residency in a particular drainage, chances are they will alter their prey species before they will move on to another territory.
So maybe they follow the caribou in, dine them out, move on to the moose, clean them , couple of beaver, kids, lambs, all the while rearing a new family. Now the valley is dead so they move on. Or die-off, but the local damage is done.

[boxhitch]

Eagles will also take a toll on young lambs...
CarlEagles and Wolverines and Coyotes all take their toll.
Ewes are not fighters. They use terrain for the defense tool of choice. But they will stand and have a lamb torn out of themselves by a coyote at birthing time. Dumb as a cow sometimes.

[whitetailsheds]

Bridger, I'm sure I've heard the same thing you are talking of. Perhaps not the same incident itself, but similar in nature.
That would be the attempted extermination via poisoning/ trapping/ hunting of wolves in the Kechika valley back in the day of Skook and Frank. Got rid of a bunch of wolves, and the sheep population went up.
I will say out of all the trips for sheep I've made (14) that only one had any involvement with wolves. And this has ranged several areas via floatplane, boat, and horseback. Alot of country.
Just this year, on the Kechicka coincidently, we had wolves down in the valley with us. And on a hike up the next day the wolves (tracks) were up in the snow with the sheep.
I'd imagine increased wolf numbers would mean increased possibility of predation on sheep, aside from what moose/elk/caribou and deer they may take.
And only in the last two years, have I noticed #'s of wolves SKYROCKET locally.
Only guessing here, but I'd say the same would apply to sheep country.
OK, I won't guess, I've been hearing from people all over the province as to ^ wolf sightings.

[brno375]

Nice to see you're still kicking it.

Both sides pretty much all the way to Watson.

Can be spotty in places but generally there are sheep and some good ones to boot.

I'd start a little south of Edziza by the bottom of my small foot and run across to two male siblings and head north from there.:wink:

Yeah, still alive. It would be interesting to know at the end of next season if anyone here left their armchairs and headed in there, or anywhere else that has been suggested.


5% of 100 is 5, 5% of 500 is 50 - trying to keep it simple.

5% of 500 is 25; 5% of 1000 is 50 :tongue:

Re wolves: Where's Scoop Davidson when you need him?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Had the pleasure(or dis-pleasure) of watching a big solo black wolf sneak up on a band of ewes and lambs. He was above them and cut them off from their escape route. He used incredible stealth and snuck to within 80 or so yds and bolted down on top of them. He was closing the distance rapidly when they all disappeared behind a ridge. I'm pretty convinced he connected. Left the video cam in the tent that day:sad:.

SSS

[budismyhorse]

Hunted 7B this august.....cut wolf tracks every day. Even heard them go by our tent at night (panting, no other sound....spooky). All the rams we saw were at the very tops of the basins/mountains in some of the worst stuff you could imagine. With those wolves cruising daily, I don't blame them.

There were a few other critters around so I am not saying they were hunting sheep, but I would imagine, if wolf numbers are up, they will attempt to eat the "fringe" prey (sheep) in their diet more so now than back in the day.... when their populations were lower.....purely out of desperation.

just some info to pass along.

[jml11]

If you're using it as a % of diet through incidence you need to look at the total primary prey population (moose/elk), predator population and then look at mortality of secondary prey (sheep in this case).

All those elk that are wandering around not being hunted in the northern half of 7B are going to bit hunters and outfitters in the but in a big way.


For anyone curious on research on predator-prey dynamics in the MK I suggest looking into the research by Parker and her graduate students. The group of them, through numerous funding sources, studied the predator-prey dynamics within the MK, particulary the Besa-Prophet area. The reports and theses are available though Dr. Parker's website.

Probably the most informative would be the PhD thesis:

Milakovic, B. 2008. Defining the predator landscape of northeastern British Columbia. PhD in Natural Resources and Environmental Studies, University of Northern British Columbia, 251 pp.

Other projects focused on habitat selection and calving strategies of caribou, habitat use by moose and elk, and my particular favorite (because I spent a 3 month+ field season on the project :razz:) is the habitat selection and behavioural strategies of Stone's Sheep project.


All those elk that are wandering around not being hunted in the northern half of 7B are going to bit hunters and outfitters in the but in a big way.

During my 100 days in the mountains, I only saw one wolf...it was on top of the mountain looking for sheep...however the most abundant disturbance to the sheep was definetly from the Elk. More often than not we would be scanning the mountain tops for sheep and find herds of elk in places where the sheep should be. My superviser (also a guide for the outfitter) felt that elk (through displacement) and associated prescribed burns are a major reason why the sheep numbers in the besa-prophet have decreased...not wolves or hunter pressure. The wolves have always been around, the elk, in the numbers they have reached, have not and are now considered a nuisance and problem for the rest of the ungulates.

[BCrams]

SSS and I watched a wolverine moving along an alpine ridge at an amazingly brisk pace. I am sure they account for a few sheep mortalities.

I have witnessed grizzlies killing ewes / lambs. As well as watch another unsuccessful stalk by a grizzly and on yet another occasion watched a grizzly chase young rams.

Coyotes likely contribute to mortalities as well. We watched them working the ridges and a couple even pulled a sneak on us as we layed there glassing with one along the ridge and another hidden behind us adjacent to 'escape' terrain.

Wolves? Not sure what was on the agenda for these 2 wolves..... sheep? caribou?

Perhaps its easier running on wind swept ridges vs valley bottoms? ;)

Only the wolves knows in this instance.

Invariably - any increase of ungulates - moose, elk, deer, etc will have a corresponding increase in predators. When these predators increase, you will also have an increase in mortality of sheep, caribou or what ever .....call it a 'bycatch' in addition to their normal food preference.

Its like fishing, you're trolling along for big springs and sooner or later you come upon surfacing coho salmon ...... whip out the rod rigged with a buzz bomb and you have your coho..... you were not specifically targetting coho....but the opportunity arose to take one. Given the opportunity, wolves will take what they can get.

[jml11]

To further add to my post (edit feature not saving...)

During his research, Milakovic collected fecal samples from wolves and analyzed their content. Only 6.3% of the samples contained sheep while 93% were confirmed moose, elk and caribou...interesting read.

[PGK]

JML did you work with the Besa Prophet crew?

[jml11]

JML did you work with the Besa Prophet crew?


Yes. The majority of this work was within the Besa-Prophet, with a few of the projects extending to the north, west and south as determined by animal migrations and movements. The mineral lick project was the only one entirely outside the besa-prophet.

[whitetailsheds]

JML, it's interesting to hear you mention the elk competeing with sheep for feed. I had heard of buffalo doing the same thing about 8 years ago. Lots of competition with those stomachs. And their ability to get at the feed the sheep are looking for, only year round being the snow plows the buffalo are.

[jml11]

JML, it's interesting to hear you mention the elk competeing with sheep for feed. I had heard of buffalo doing the same thing about 8 years ago. Lots of competition with those stomachs. And their ability to get at the feed the sheep are looking for, only year round being the snow plows the buffalo are.

This could very well be. We did not observe any bison in the study area itself but they were not far away (the odd lone bull has been spotted in the past). With the amount of prescribed burning occuring in that neck of the woods, it may also favor the bison and they may move into the region if they haven't already.

[goatdancer]

Carl-thanks for the thoughts and the reading material, much appreciated
goatdancer-who do you talk to at McIlhennay about getting maps?

as an aside, did anyone see the article on the Muskwa-Ketchika in National Geographic, my brother showed it to me the other day

Matt - McElhanney Associates are in Ft. St. John
phone (250) 787-0356

The maps were about $20 each and covered seperate portions of the MK. They are very good topos and show the vehicle restrictions for the MK.

There have been a lot of suggestions for places to hunt and a lot of ideas re predator/habitat problems for the Stones. Would have been nice to have this info back when we went up there. Might have given us a better chance to connect. All in all though, going up into that country is worth the trip for the scenery alone. Kinda cool to see bison grazing along the highway on the way to the Liard hotsprings. Thanks guys. This has definitely been a worthwhile thread.

[PGK]

Yes. The majority of this work was within the Besa-Prophet, with a few of the projects extending to the north, west and south as determined by animal migrations and movements. The mineral lick project was the only one entirely outside the besa-prophet.

Yeah I thought I recognized you in a 412 powerpoint slide, lol.

[jml11]

Yes, Kathy presents some of her research in her course, including her MK studies. Assuming he still uses the same syllabus, Mike uses/presents some of the data from the MK projects in 413 as well.

Who knew that being a horseman would have helped me get a job as a wildife tech...definetly the coolest job I have had by far, but 100 days straight in the MK traversing the terrain with packstring and on foot, living out of tents and very rustic cabins is not for the faint at heart.

[BCrams]

traversing the terrain with packstring and on foot, living out of tents and very rustic cabins is not for the faint at heart.

Think you could handle it Kris? 8-)

[Gateholio]

Think you could handle it Kris? 8-)

I would go nuts without some female companionship, and I don't mean a sow grizzly.:p

[GoatGuy]

For anyone curious on research on predator-prey dynamics in the MK I suggest looking into the research by Parker and her graduate students. The group of them, through numerous funding sources, studied the predator-prey dynamics within the MK, particulary the Besa-Prophet area. The reports and theses are available though Dr. Parker's website.

Probably the most informative would be the PhD thesis:

Milakovic, B. 2008. Defining the predator landscape of northeastern British Columbia. PhD in Natural Resources and Environmental Studies, University of Northern British Columbia, 251 pp.

Other projects focused on habitat selection and calving strategies of caribou, habitat use by moose and elk, and my particular favorite (because I spent a 3 month+ field season on the project :razz:) is the habitat selection and behavioural strategies of Stone's Sheep project.



During my 100 days in the mountains, I only saw one wolf...it was on top of the mountain looking for sheep...however the most abundant disturbance to the sheep was definetly from the Elk. More often than not we would be scanning the mountain tops for sheep and find herds of elk in places where the sheep should be. My superviser (also a guide for the outfitter) felt that elk (through displacement) and associated prescribed burns are a major reason why the sheep numbers in the besa-prophet have decreased...not wolves or hunter pressure. The wolves have always been around, the elk, in the numbers they have reached, have not and are now considered a nuisance and problem for the rest of the ungulates.

Good info

I didn't want to point out the burns for fear of 'experience in the 70s'; I'm glad you put that up there. Arbitrarily starting a fire to make something black is not always in the best interests of sheep.


You and BCRams must know eachother.


One of Parker's grad students (the guide/sup) left a vm on Saturday - he was in Vancouver and sounded like he had been into the wobbly pops. :roll: Funny - a grad student, thesis on sheep, hardcore hunter and someone who's guided stone's/dalls/rockies. Who'd have thought they existed?

[Kody94]

And we're talking about hear-say from almost 30 years ago. 30 years is a long time buddy. I always find it a little bit amusing that the old timers will spout off about what happened 30 years ago. Has no real basis in this day and age. Sorry.

Check back on this post in about 20 years and see if you feel the same way.

[BCrams]

Good info

You and BCRams must know eachother.

Really well. There's only one desk between us and the target of occasional paper balls.


..............

[GoatGuy]

Really well. There's only one desk between us and the target of occasional paper balls...............

That's funny - so who's gonna tell the story about the trick-rider up there? :razz:

[MattW]

Matt - McElhanney Associates are in Ft. St. John
phone (250) 787-0356

The maps were about $20 each and covered seperate portions of the MK. They are very good topos and show the vehicle restrictions for the MK.

There have been a lot of suggestions for places to hunt and a lot of ideas re predator/habitat problems for the Stones. Would have been nice to have this info back when we went up there. Might have given us a better chance to connect. All in all though, going up into that country is worth the trip for the scenery alone. Kinda cool to see bison grazing along the highway on the way to the Liard hotsprings. Thanks guys. This has definitely been a worthwhile thread.
Thanks for finding me McElhanneys phone #, I'll probably call them tomorrow. I agree, the country itself is worth the trip (I've been there for elk) but finding some sheep would be great too. It has been a very interesting thread and has got me thinking about a lot. The elk population thread that grew out of this is interesting too.

[6616]

Bridger, the science does not support your claim. That's all. And we're talking about hear-say from almost 30 years ago. 30 years is a long time buddy. I always find it a little bit amusing that the old timers will spout off about what happened 30 years ago. Has no real basis in this day and age. Sorry. And from what I saw and heard this year, sheep were dropping like flies left and right. I think your post is designed to keep residents out!

Interesting comment PGK, I too remember the wolf culls Bridger speaks about and I don't believe the results were heresay at all, they were quite real. As GG alludes to there was even an internal MOE report on this based on inventory survey results before and after the wolf kill. If I remember correctly both the sheep lamb/ewe and caribou calf/cow ratios rose from 15-20/100 to 40-60/100 (varying by survey unit) after the wolf cull. This was hard data from aerial surveys, not hereasy. AS I recall, these numbers (post vrs pre cull) were also included in one of the BCWF convention reports from that era as well.

Of course habitat suitability, hunting pressure, weather patterns, etc, all play a significant role, but there's no denying the fact that wolf predation has played a major role in Stone Sheep population dynamics over time, and undoubtedly still does.

[jml11]

That's funny - so who's gonna tell the story about the trick-rider up there? :razz:

I'm not sure which story you are refering to, we all needed to be trick-riders to get by up there, maybe something that happened during Rams' stint. Definetly some good wrecks occured...



I would go nuts without some female companionship, and I don't mean a sow grizzly.:razz:


The crew I was on consisted of 3 guys and one girl ....for the most part we were split into two crews and I was fortunate enough to work with a guy who had the nickename Spanks:???:....lucky me!

[MattW]

Again, thank you all for your knowledgable contributions. I have another question though and that is what would you recommend for timing on a sheep hunt? Do you head in a few days before opening to glass, do you assume there are enough sheep to go around and wait a couple weeks for opening day keeners to clear out? In 7B if you wait until mid-August to go you can hunt elk as well so that has some appeal for sure. Would you go even later than that? Thanks
Matt

[jml11]

I've found that most guys tend to go for the opening fro various reasons, sheep may be less skidish as they have not been hunted, be the first to new 'legal' crop, generally good weather and so on, but there are some cons as well. It can be very busy in areas which may take away from your hunt, also early season sheep have short hair which many guys don't care for. My opinion is yes there enough sheep to go around all season as the sheep are always moving, either by natural migrations or by avoiding hunters. We've done well in late august early and early sept. Our area tends to get hit hard for the opening but rarely a ram comes out at that time of year. Come early fall more sheep have moved in and we find legal rams every year, often within two days. Their capes are fantastic at that time year too and the weather is still decent (plus rams have had an extra month of horn growth, maybe making a few more squeekers from early august legal??) We've yet to try the area in october and I imgaine the hunting could be quite good then as it is likely that more sheep have moved in off the bigger mountains into more favorable wintering grounds. Morale of the story is it may depend on the area you choose to hunt. My general understanding is that the mountains accessed of the Alaska higway are very busy during opening but the sheep numbers are better later in the season due to natural migrations. Apparently, many of the locals up there don't even hunt sheep until october.

[ElkMasterC]

Bridger, the science does not support your claim. That's all. And we're talking about hear-say from almost 30 years ago. 30 years is a long time buddy. I always find it a little bit amusing that the old timers will spout off about what happened 30 years ago. Has no real basis in this day and age. Sorry. And from what I saw and heard this year, sheep were dropping like flies left and right. I think your post is designed to keep residents out!

That's a funny statement.
I don't think the wolves or the sheep are aware that 3o years has passed....not in their calendars, anyway...lol

I just finished a book by Valerius Geist (Mountain Sheep and Man in the Northern Wilds) which is as much about Philosophy as it is sheep, BTW, and he made several statements about wolves.
One that I recall is that a sheep will ignore a wolf that's below him on the scree........but if one appears above him, all hell breaks loose.
Geist is of the general opinion that wolves do have an impact on sheep, (My interpretation) and given their numbers you really wouldn't have to take THAT many, proportionately, to have a significant, or at least noticeable effect on the population. Not only in numbers, but in evasive behaviour.
Anyone?......Bueller.........anyone?