Government feeding wolves in chilcotin

[dutchie]

If you get the chance, grab the paper from today and read the story about the government paying to have wild horses killed to feed the wolves. I wonder hows intelligent idea this was?!

They paying native bands to kill wild horses to feed the wolves to try to keep the Caribou. This has nothing to do with the Natives, so don't think for a second that is the track i am going down.

The thought process here is all out of wack. Lets feed predetors, so they don't kill the caribou? I was always taught were there is more food there is more action...

say deer for an example... if there is a plot of food in one area that is the area they go, because there is food. G bears go to streams because there is more food for them there. and so on and so on.....

Am i alone on thinking this is absolute BULL Shitake? why not pay the natives to trap and kill the wolves? because one of the points that the minister made was, catching or killing the wild horses added supplemental income to native bands.

dutchie

going to pound on the ducks now to relive my stress on this topic!

[SteadyGirl]

What paper?

The only horses in any number I know of in the province are in the Nemiah Valley and the local indian band started a "Friends of the Nemiah Valley" website a few years ago. They are working very hard towards the only mainland horse preserve in Canada, which I hope they achieve.

If this is true, what method are they using? :roll:

[SteadyGirl]

Found it :mad:

B.C. government paid natives to shoot wild horses for wolf bait







By Larry Pynn December 6, 2008 4:02 AM



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The Ministry of Environment purchased the shot horses as wolf bait for a predator study related to the recovery of threatened caribou herds in the Chilcotin region, while the Ministry of Forests and Range bankrolled the live capture of horses as part of a program to reduce competition with range cattle.
News of the provincial actions is generating debate even within the aboriginal community over the management of wild horses in the Chilcotin and the need to ensure their humane treatment.
Joe Alphonse, director of government services with the Tsilhqot’in National Government, said in an interview Friday his people have been capturing horses for generations for personal use.
The sale to auctions and, ultimately, to slaughterhouses, is also a way for natives on economically depressed reserves to earn money. “It’s acceptable,” he said. “It’s a last resort, but it still can provide a little bit of income. That’s been a part of what we’ve had to rely on.”
But Alphonse said his people cannot condone the shooting of wild horses for use as wolf bait. “That’s not something we would endorse,” he said. “I think that if the majority of our people found out the Ministry of Environment is trying to hire people to shoot horses, there’d be outrage. If you’re going to take a horse, you pay respect and get out on the land and chase that animal in on horseback.
“If you can’t do that, to sit and hide there and shoot guns at a horse out in the wild where the animal could get wounded and suffer, we wouldn’t endorse that.”
Alphonse said the government, through an agreement with TNG, paid the Stone band $200 a horse to catch 25 horses last winter to reduce competition with ranchers’ cattle.
Up to half of the horses were sold at auction and ultimately sent to slaughterhouses, he said, and the rest were kept in the Chilcotin as saddle horses. The government would like to continue the program this winter if funding is available.
Environment Ministry spokesman Dan Gilmore confirmed the ministry paid members of the Xeni Gwet’in First Nation of the Nemaiah Valley $500 apiece for four horses last winter.
“When it came time to consider how best to lure and capture wolves for the purposes of the mountain caribou recovery program, it was recommended that we use horseflesh,” he said in a statement.
“Knowing of the activities of First Nations, we undertook to ask if any First Nations communities could offer us horses for the purposes of our mountain caribou project.
“We had a number of positive responses, and acted to purchase horses for an agreed price. First Nations people selected the horses to be supplied to us, and dispatched them in preparation for transport.”
The horses were shot last winter to aid in the live capture of wolves near Quesnel, B.C., about 120 kilometres south of Prince George, as part of ministry research into threatened caribou populations.
Gilmore said larger carcasses are preferred because they keep the wolves longer at one location, and moose carcasses are not always available.
Mike Pedersen, Chilcotin forest district manager, said the horse culls are a response to ranchers’ concerns about forage loss. “It’s a worthwhile project,” he said, noting horses also compete with moose and mule deer.
Aerial surveys of the area show the wild horse population has increased to 442 in 2008 from 123 in 1998. Pedersen said he would like to continue the program this year, but won’t know if there is money for it until January.
Alphonse said that, despite native participation in the government-financed cull, he does not believe there are too many wild horses in the Chilcotin. “There’s not an overpopulation,” he said.
The Spanish introduced the modern horse to North America about five centuries ago. By the time explorer Simon Fraser ventured through the Chilcotin two centuries ago, the horse was already there.
David Williams of Friends of the Nemaiah Valley said he supports the right of natives to capture horses. But he urged the province to declare the free-roaming horses wildlife and to develop policy to ensure their capture is scientifically justified and humane. Currently, wild horses are considered feral and lack protection.
The Tsilhqot’in National Government represents 3,500 people in six communities.
© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist


I DON'T EVEN %$#^&**( #$%^&**%^ ##$%&^ #$ Believe it

[SteadyGirl]

B.C. government paid natives to shoot wild horses for wolf bait







By Larry Pynn December 6, 2008 4:02 AM



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The Ministry of Environment purchased the shot horses as wolf bait for a predator study related to the recovery of threatened caribou herds in the Chilcotin region, while the Ministry of Forests and Range bankrolled the live capture of horses as part of a program to reduce competition with range cattle.
News of the provincial actions is generating debate even within the aboriginal community over the management of wild horses in the Chilcotin and the need to ensure their humane treatment.
Joe Alphonse, director of government services with the Tsilhqot’in National Government, said in an interview Friday his people have been capturing horses for generations for personal use.
The sale to auctions and, ultimately, to slaughterhouses, is also a way for natives on economically depressed reserves to earn money. “It’s acceptable,” he said. “It’s a last resort, but it still can provide a little bit of income. That’s been a part of what we’ve had to rely on.”
But Alphonse said his people cannot condone the shooting of wild horses for use as wolf bait. “That’s not something we would endorse,” he said. “I think that if the majority of our people found out the Ministry of Environment is trying to hire people to shoot horses, there’d be outrage. If you’re going to take a horse, you pay respect and get out on the land and chase that animal in on horseback.
“If you can’t do that, to sit and hide there and shoot guns at a horse out in the wild where the animal could get wounded and suffer, we wouldn’t endorse that.”
Alphonse said the government, through an agreement with TNG, paid the Stone band $200 a horse to catch 25 horses last winter to reduce competition with ranchers’ cattle.
Up to half of the horses were sold at auction and ultimately sent to slaughterhouses, he said, and the rest were kept in the Chilcotin as saddle horses. The government would like to continue the program this winter if funding is available.
Environment Ministry spokesman Dan Gilmore confirmed the ministry paid members of the Xeni Gwet’in First Nation of the Nemaiah Valley $500 apiece for four horses last winter.
“When it came time to consider how best to lure and capture wolves for the purposes of the mountain caribou recovery program, it was recommended that we use horseflesh,” he said in a statement.
“Knowing of the activities of First Nations, we undertook to ask if any First Nations communities could offer us horses for the purposes of our mountain caribou project.
“We had a number of positive responses, and acted to purchase horses for an agreed price. First Nations people selected the horses to be supplied to us, and dispatched them in preparation for transport.”
The horses were shot last winter to aid in the live capture of wolves near Quesnel, B.C., about 120 kilometres south of Prince George, as part of ministry research into threatened caribou populations.
Gilmore said larger carcasses are preferred because they keep the wolves longer at one location, and moose carcasses are not always available.
Mike Pedersen, Chilcotin forest district manager, said the horse culls are a response to ranchers’ concerns about forage loss. “It’s a worthwhile project,” he said, noting horses also compete with moose and mule deer.
Aerial surveys of the area show the wild horse population has increased to 442 in 2008 from 123 in 1998. Pedersen said he would like to continue the program this year, but won’t know if there is money for it until January.
Alphonse said that, despite native participation in the government-financed cull, he does not believe there are too many wild horses in the Chilcotin. “There’s not an overpopulation,” he said.
The Spanish introduced the modern horse to North America about five centuries ago. By the time explorer Simon Fraser ventured through the Chilcotin two centuries ago, the horse was already there.
David Williams of Friends of the Nemaiah Valley said he supports the right of natives to capture horses. But he urged the province to declare the free-roaming horses wildlife and to develop policy to ensure their capture is scientifically justified and humane. Currently, wild horses are considered feral and lack protection.
The Tsilhqot’in National Government represents 3,500 people in six communities.
© Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist

I DON'T EVEN %^$#&*^ BELIEVE IT:mad::mad::mad::mad:

[sealevel]

Good use of horseflesh. Its not like there`s a shortage of horses:D

[mountainman]

What paper?

The only horses in any number I know of in the province are in the Nemiah Valley and the local indian band started a "Friends of the Nemiah Valley" website a few years ago. They are working very hard towards the only mainland horse preserve in Canada, which I hope they achieve.

If this is true, what method are they using? :roll:

What about Alberta?? I think the whole province is a horse preserve, not allowed to shoot horses anywhere here.

I am just throwing this out there but I would say you can't hunt wolves in that area for a while :lol:;-)

[MattB]

Hopefully theyre just using them as bait! 8-) Kill all the horses and kill all the wolves, must be fun!

[SteadyGirl]

And to think if you had just kept your knife a little sharper I wouldn't have had the misfortune of reading that just now;)

[phearless]

Horses.
Non native, invasive.
Competition for wildlife.
Hooves destructive to habitat causing erosion etc.

Perhaps trapping them all out is an option.
Then they can go to good private homes so we as taxpayers don't have to foot the bill.

[hunter1947]

They are doing the wrong thing here ,there will be a time where they have run out of horses to feed the wolves then what ????? ,the wolf numbers will increase over the years ,buy feeding wolves all said and done they will have to thin the wolf population at the end anyway.
I was once told from an old trapper this saying ,you will never kill all the rats out there ,but you can control there numbers.

Who ever thought of this idea are out of there minds-who ever thought up this idea ??????????.

The only way to save the population of the pray is to reduce the wolf numbers by whatever is need to do so.

[MattB]

And to think if you had just kept your knife a little sharper I wouldn't have had the misfortune of reading that just now;)
Im thinking i might have to go shoot a few horses myself :cool:

[SteadyGirl]

Im thinking i might have to go shoot a few horses myself :cool:


ya man, then you could like post it on utube like ya, man ya that is like so totally ya what you should do man

[horshur]

this whole caribou deal stinks of the same bullshit in the states with reintroduction of the wolves...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'd like the GPS coordinates of these feeding areas. Should be open for public record:-).
Anyone up for a winter road trip??

I saw a show a few months ago on the Neimiah Valley.
It was "interesting" to say the least.....
The natives called in that bio from the W. Koots that worked on saving the g-bears with Vallhalla Wilderness Society(his name escapes my brain at the moment). He gathered data to show that the horses have become a "keystone species" in the area. Set up some trailcams on some of the "horse trails" (ie game trails:roll:). Took some pics of the other animals(cougars and moose) that use the trails and came to the conclusion that all the other game rely on using the horse trails. Talk about forcing the pieces of the puzzle together. A scientist he is not.:roll: Made me sick to my stomache.

Ahhhh remember the goof's name....Wayne McCrory. He should be stripped of his Professional Biologist title.

SSS

[sawmill]

ARRRRRGH
The last 'wild horses' checked out around the same time as camels and woolley mamoths and cave bears in North America.
Every horse after are FERAL.Imports from the 'old country" that got away from guys with crappy fences.Same as all the bison around Pink Mountain that every one is so keen to get an leh for.
They are not "Wild"
They are FERAL
Now Girls gone wild is a differant story:biggrin:

[blackwater]

There are a lot more than 400 feral horses in the Chilcotin. The number is closer to 2000. They are posing a serious problem that can't/won't be controlled...mainly because they have big eyes and girls love them. We have a large problem with feral horses in the Kamloops area as well.

The wolves don't eat very many horses in the wild...because they aren't part of the natural ecosystem. I'd rather see them shoot every 'wild' horse' before they shot one wolf. At least the wolf population follows the rise and fall of the real wild animals. They increase when food or conditions improve and decrease when food or conditions get bad...natural cycle. Of course humans have screwed up the cycle considerably, but it still functions despite us.

Now that First Nations have decided that the horse is part of their traditional heritage we are screwed for any real management. Probably one of the reasons they are doing this horse food experiment with the natives. They want ownership, they need to manage the problem...and it is a huge fuzzy bunny type problem.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This reeks of McCrory...no doubt.

Easy food for the wolves= more breeding. Increase the wolf numbers...funding of this ridiculous project runs out.......more wolves to hit the remaining caribou. Maybe we should just shoot all the caribou and be done with it:confused:.

Good stuff:?.

SSS

[Wild one]

I would liked to hear the logic behind this

[SteadyGirl]

3000 posts Steve??? Got alot to say don't ya?
When I go to the Nemiah Valley (which I have wanted to do for ten years or more) I will be spending a month or more. Might get into some lengthly poetry or the like. As for road trip you better be ready to walk or ride a horse to get into the Britney Triangle where the majority of the horses are..

The world is just a pretty place with wild horses running around, helps deter attention from the smokestacks and skyscrapers ;)

There will always be people like MattB and worse. There will also always be people like me, who do what they can, where they can.. to ease the burden on other species of sharing planet earth with humans. I think it was T Boone Pickens wife who just bought three or four thousand "feral" horses.

I bet a solid half of you would shit yourselves once in a round pen with one of these 'feral' horses.

I have one that has been tame for 15 years and its a bit of a rodeo every spring.

[SteadyGirl]

A link to the strategy for recovery of the mountain cariboo:shock:

Wait till you read all this crap:idea:

http://www.strategicthoughts.com/record2005/mtcaribou.html

[phearless]

The world is a prettier place with native species running around to the full carrying capacity of their habitat with out being encroached upon by introduced species.

[FLHTCUI]

Is it to early for PopCorn???
R

[Will]

And to think if you had just kept your knife a little sharper I wouldn't have had the misfortune of reading that just now;)

WOWSERS......you've gotten all mean on us:neutral:

:lol:


As to the wolves.........What's gonna happen long term when the horses are gone and these wolves come looking for easy meat from surrounding areas ?
Just a thought.....:?

[blackwater]

The world is a prettier place with native species running around to the full carrying capacity of their habitat with out being encroached upon by introduced species.

Saved me the post.

Nobody is disputing that feral horses are wild-spirited. To help clarify the term 'feral' I quote that entirely reliable source, Wikipedia.

"A feral organism is one that has escaped from domestication and returned, partly or wholly, to its wild state. The introduction of feral animals or plants, like any introduced species, can disrupt ecosystems and may, in some cases, contribute to extinction of indigenous species."

The point is the horse is introduced and has zero predators after 5 centuries...now how could they ever be considered 'wild'? They don't belong in this ecosystem - no matter how pretty some think they are.

[Kye]

Looks good to me.

Those horses are big problem, they are overgrazing the land taking food away from wildlife and cattle.

They are not "feeding" the wolfs, they are using it as bait to trap and collar them. They then track their movements, so they can better manage wolves. This includes culling individuals and packs if they are found preying on cariboo.

[Kye]

What about Alberta?? I think the whole province is a horse preserve, not allowed to shoot horses anywhere here.

I am just throwing this out there but I would say you can't hunt wolves in that area for a while :lol:;-)

They are not "wild" horses, they are feral.

[bigwhiteys]

Maybe we should just shoot all the caribou and be done with it:confused:

Best post in this thread... Great Idea! Eliminate the problem entirely.

Carl

[Gateholio]

I think some people should take a deep breath....

Keep it civil, folks.

[boxhitch]

There are too many good horses in this world to waste time with a bad one.

They are feral horses, and don't belong in the balance.
I know a couple of Good Ole Boys that used to make a living of rounding up some of these, sorting out the usable rides, whether it was for working or rodeo stock, and getting rid of the culls. The market isn't there anymore though.
So the herd increases to the point of being a nuisance.
They don't belong in the balance.

[Browningmirage]

There will always be people like MattB

so true...he is a bit of a nutjob ;)

[boxhitch]

they are using it as bait to trap and collar them. They then track their movements, so they can better manage wolves.

Wanted
Wolf radio-collar frequencys
Will pay cash.

[bigwhiteys]

What's the going rate per pound for a meat horse right now...?

Carl

[tooty]

Here's a piece of fubar.I was told that in certain regions there is going to be an increase in allocations for moose to decrease the population of moose to decrease the population of wolves to increase the population of caribou.Wolves are feeding on healthy caribou as well as the old and sick because there is a very strong population of wolves.So there again,just reduce wolves.We the bio was explaning this to me I just stood there with my mouth open.Then stated the obvious,to much politits he said ...oh I spelted that wrong.

[wolverine]

That's really sad. If you have never experienced a herd of wild horse it's. IMHO, really a cool experience. Common sense would dictate that the wolf numbers need to be controlled but it's gotta be cheaper to feed them the horses. It will turn out to be a miserable failure and the wolf numbers will continue to increase because now the food is easy pickings.

[SteadyGirl]

I don't know what the price is per lb right now in Ft Mcleod(nearest slaughterhouse). Unless you take the horse to Ft Mcleod yourself you will get around $200 for it.

[Browningmirage]

Here's a piece of fubar.I was told that in certain regions there is going to be an increase in allocations for moose to decrease the population of moose to decrease the population of wolves to increase the population of caribou.Wolves are feeding on healthy caribou as well as the old and sick because there is a very strong population of wolves.So there again,just reduce wolves.We the bio was explaning this to me I just stood there with my mouth open.Then stated the obvious,to much politits he said ...oh I spelted that wrong.

it might have a possibility of working if they also conducted somewhat of a cull to help reduce wolf numbers at the same time. But you know how it is, govt's bow to public pressure, and then nothing logical gets done. Its like what happened on the Puntledge river this year, DFO had a cull on seals all planned out, and then Johnny public freaked out and called for some other measure to be put into place. Usually the replacement measure is completely useless, and gets absolutly nothing done

[Fisher-Dude]

My dad and his buds used to capture wild horses in what is now OK Mountain Park. They'd shoot 'em in the neck flesh with a 22, just above the spine, to shock them off their feet, then get a rope on 'em. Now those old boys were REAL cowboys, not like these wannabes we see today! ;)

Maybe the MoE is gathering a few deepfreezes full of horse meat for wolf cull programs, under the guise of "studying caribou recovery". Gotta be PC in how it's diseminated to the urban masses these days. ;)

[Kye]

The title of this thread reads like a headline from the province. misleading and not accurate.

[ElkMasterC]

The title of this thread reads like a headline from the province. misleading and not accurate.


The province is a newspaper?

Like the Weekly World news, you mean? :P

Who's "feeding" the wolves?

Read the article, please, they're trapping them. Studying them, collaring them. Hopefully so we can nail some more. I wouldn't mind having those frequencies either...lol

I'm constantly amazed at how many people on this site have such poor reading skills, yet hold Master's degrees and Doctorates in Animal Biology and Wildlife management.

Must be some O' them Audio books fer gooder book-learnin' while ya sleep, huh?

[Wolfman]

The level of stupidity in government is sometimes staggering.

Wolfman

[MichelD]

"I'm constantly amazed at how many people on this site have such poor reading skills, yet hold Master's degrees and Doctorates in Animal Biology and Wildlife management."

Right on.

[eastkoot]

The Ministry of Environment purchased the shot horses as wolf bait for a predator study related to the recovery of threatened caribou herds in the Chilcotin region, while the Ministry of Forests and Range bankrolled the live capture of horses as part of a program to reduce competition with range cattle.



Bait, thats all they use them for. Someone gave FN's a few bucks to kill a few horses. As for capture, when I worked for the forest service in 100 Mile we used to fly and map where the horses were and there was an actual bounty on them. Some of the oldtimer cowboys were paid x amount of dollars for a set of ears. They also would capture some, tie them to trees for days without food to "tame" them. I was there last year hunting and saw herds of horses almost every day. They are a threat to moose habitat in that they will eat out a meadow in days then go to the next and destroy all the meadow grasses.. FN's have been instrumental in stopping anyone from gathering up herds of the horses claiming they belong to them. Not that there is anything wrong with that!!!

[riflebuilder]

I would love to get a few of these horses they make great mountain ponies. anyone have any for sale?

[horshur]

The FN round them up every year and sell them off or ship the ones no one wants off to the rendering plant. What's better, having four of those horses humanely shot and used for some useful purpose (they are using them as bait in their trapping program not feeding the wolves fer chris' sakes) or having them shipped off to a rendering plant for dog food. Four feral horses...big woop.

sorry bud but here is a fact...don't need a goddamn degree to know that wolves eat caribou.
this is just a make work program that will amount to nothin unless it is done on the sly .....nobody needs to study this anymore...they already know what to do...just a friggin waste of taxpayers money.
It is only usefull in that it burns up the budget.

[horshur]

Exactly, so they are out there trapping wolves...what's the problem?

cause they are trapping wolves to see if they eat cariboo.;-)rather than eliminate them from the equation.

[Kirby]

Im thinking i might have to go shoot a few horses myself :cool:

Count me in.

Kirby

[willy442]

I would liked to hear the logic behind this

I'm sure Goat Guy should have some stats, mathematical formula's and reports on this, if he would care to bring them out in the open.

[eastkoot]

I'm sure Goat Guy should have some stats, mathematical formula's and reports on this, if he would care to bring them out in the open.
Well, lets wait and Zee !!

[goatdancer]

Looks like our tax dollars put to good use??????:shock::shock::shock:

[BCrams]

For those who are interested in reading:

Recovery Initiatives for Caribou of Central BC

http://www.centralbccaribou.ca/crg

[Orangethunder]

Good use of horseflesh. Its not like there`s a shortage of horses:D


True that! West of 100 Mile is packed with wild horses. Way too many. Without going into my policy on livestock on crown land I say kill them all. They are farel animals which are a detriment to sensitve grasslands and wetlands.

Now feeding them to wolves seems odd. But killing wild horses sounds like fun!!!

[dana]

According to the Almighty GG, I know nothing about Mountain Caribou. I guess I pissed off a bunch of the boys from MOE last year and have lost all respect from them. LMAO!!!! If them boys actually did their jobs instead of spending all their time trying to figure out where dana hunts, then maybe the Caribou might stand a chance. ;)

[Will]

http://usera.ImageCave.com/WILLY/eyes.jpg

[SteadyGirl]

Why are the Cariboos numbers so low in the first place? I don't know a thing about them, are they called Woodland Cariboo? How is thier habitat doing to start with? Do they have room to migrate around?

[Kye]

cause they are trapping wolves to see if they eat cariboo.;-)rather than eliminate them from the equation.

Yeah, because eradicating wolfs from ecosystems and attempted culls to increase game numbers, have shown to be effective throughout history :rolleyes:

[tooty]

The feds already know the wolves are eating up mountain caribou.Habitat loss,to many very healthy well fed wolves.That all adds up to fewer and fewer caribou.So reduce moose populations,starve the wolves.Then presto bingo,caribou every where,just like all the fairy tales

[TRIPALM]

wouldnt it be in the first nations best interest to donate their time and wild horses towards this insane projerc -everyboby else seems to do their part-especially if it will benifit them in the long run with a healthy caribou harvest

[Gateholio]

http://usera.ImageCave.com/WILLY/eyes.jpg

I don't even think that guy was an Indian....:-o

[Will]

I don't even think that guy was an Indian....:-o
He wasn't...........He was an Italian Dude ! :lol:

[horshur]

Yeah, because eradicating wolfs from ecosystems and attempted culls to increase game numbers, have shown to be effective throughout history :rolleyes:

ask the vancouver island marmots...

[dana]

The last southern mountain caribou will be eaten by a collared wolf. Then the MOE will finally have enough proof and will declare, "Yes, wolves do actually eat caribou."

[GoatGuy]

The only people who will support having predator control w/o having hard data are hunters.

Hunters make up 80,000 extremely disorganized people in the province. If we had 200,000 organized hunters things in this province would surely be different but we don't and nobody seems too concerned cause they're too busy looking for a trophy :roll: 300" bull elk or at least making sure nobody else harvests one.

After the rifle season there aren't enough bucks left for me.

80,000 people is 1.8% of BC's population. Lets get one thing very straight: Nobody cares about hunters as 1.8% of BC's population.

Somebody shot a 7 yr old ram, oh my god! That isn't a trophy in my books, take away his license BAN HIM!

There is not a politician in the province who will touch predator control because of it's devastating effects in the past due to poorly executed programs in the past (no Willy I'm not blaming you because I know you weren't there eventhough you probably told your kid you were).

I don't care about conservation or what we need for buck:doe bull:cow ram:ewe ratios - all I care about is seeing a pile of game. More the better!

The only way to get a limited program is to actually prove what's going on and even then you're going to be hard-pressed to do anything because you don't have public support.

I haven't gotten my LEH in 400 years - how can I make sure nobody else gets drawn instead of trying to create more animals?

The only people who are organized are anti-hunters - they're the ones seeing the success and there's probably even fewer of them in the province then there are hunters BUT, they're organized.

I think buffalo and elk should be once in a lifetime- not because it will improve my odds but because I don't want anybody else to get to go hunting twice.

Even if a program did exist hunters wouldn't be told about it just because of the engage mouth before engaging brain mentality like those shared by Willy and Dana.

You can't shoot the calves - there won't be a moose left in the countryside. At least make it LEH so that we can limit the hunters and knock a couple more out of hunting.

Caribou will probably end up extirpated in the southern half of the province in short time because firstly people don't care and secondly the people who should care (hunters) are busy complaining about not getting their LEH or not having enough bow seasons or competing with kids or that nobody should be shooting 7 yr old rams or that someone the lower mainland is going to shoot their animals, or best yet spending their seasons patrolling their penned hunting property.

If we don't have a 6pt season and a mine there won't be a cow elk left in the EK.


What are your priorities?

If hunters don't collectively grab their heads with both hands they're going to find there won't be a hunting season left in BC.

To date we've got a long history of being our own enemies and eating our own. Nobody gives 2 bits about hunters period and hunters don't seem to care about themselves or the future of hunting in this province.

The guys in F&W and 3 MLAs are the only ones who fight for you folks and all you can do is point fingers and complain.

Until hunters start talking about conservation, looking to improve hunter numbers and habitat we're gonna keep on riding 'er right into the gutter.




Hunters are right behind the caribou.

[ElkMasterC]

The only people who will support having predator control w/o having hard data are hunters.

Hunters make up 80,000 extremely disorganized people in the province. If we had 200,000 organized hunters things in this province would surely be different but we don't and nobody seems too concerned cause they're too busy looking for a trophy :roll: 300" bull elk or at least making sure nobody else harvests one.

After the rifle season there aren't enough bucks left for me.

80,000 people is 1.8% of BC's population. Lets get one thing very straight: Nobody cares about hunters as 1.8% of BC's population.

Somebody shot a 7 yr old ram, oh my god! That isn't a trophy in my books, take away his license BAN HIM!

There is not a politician in the province who will touch predator control because of it's devastating effects in the past due to poorly executed programs in the past (no Willy I'm not blaming you because I know you weren't there eventhough you probably told your kid you were).

I don't care about conservation or what we need for buck:doe bull:cow ram:ewe ratios - all I care about is seeing a pile of game. More the better!

The only way to get a limited program is to actually prove what's going on and even then you're going to be hard-pressed to do anything because you don't have public support.

I haven't gotten my LEH in 400 years - how can I make sure nobody else gets drawn instead of trying to create more animals?

The only people who are organized are anti-hunters - they're the ones seeing the success and there's probably even fewer of them in the province then there are hunters BUT, they're organized.

I think buffalo and elk should be once in a lifetime- not because it will improve my odds but because I don't want anybody else to get to go hunting twice.

Even if a program did exist hunters wouldn't be told about it just because of the engage mouth before engaging brain mentality like those shared by Willy and Dana.

You can't shoot the calves - there won't be a moose left in the countryside. At least make it LEH so that we can limit the hunters and knock a couple more out of hunting.

Caribou will probably end up extirpated in the southern half of the province in short time because firstly people don't care and secondly the people who should care (hunters) are busy complaining about not getting their LEH or not having enough bow seasons or competing with kids or that nobody should be shooting 7 yr old rams or that someone the lower mainland is going to shoot their animals, or best yet spending their seasons patrolling their penned hunting property.

If we don't have a 6pt season and a mine there won't be a cow elk left in the EK.


What are your priorities?

If hunters don't collectively grab their heads with both hands they're going to find there won't be a hunting season left in BC.

To date we've got a long history of being our own enemies and eating our own. Nobody gives 2 bits about hunters period and hunters don't seem to care about themselves or the future of hunting in this province.

The guys in F&W and 3 MLAs are the only ones who fight for you folks and all you can do is point fingers and complain.

Until hunters start talking about conservation, looking to improve hunter numbers and habitat we're gonna keep on riding 'er right into the gutter.




Hunters are right behind the caribou.



http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/Applause.gif

Oh yeah, some people got SERVED on that one!

Good post, GoatGuy, as equally excellent as some of mine, and that's high praise. ;-)

[dana]

I think GG needs to look in the mirror when he says hunters are their worst enemy. He might think ripping and tearing at fellow hunters who disagree with him is fun on the internet, but it just takes all his credibility away.

[bigwhiteys]

There is not a politician in the province who will touch predator control because of it's devastating effects in the past due to poorly executed programs in the past (no Willy I'm not blaming you because I know you weren't there eventhough you probably told your kid you were).

Give it up Jesse...


He might think ripping and tearing at fellow hunters who disagree with him is fun on the internet, but it just takes all his credibility away.

He never really had any to begin with!

Carl

[eastkoot]

He never really had any to begin with

X2 A Zeeinger for Whitey !!!

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/Applause.gif

[Gateholio]

If you want to talk wolves/caribou/feral horses, do it here- If you want to trade jabs, do it via PM.

[Fisher-Dude]

According to the Almighty GG, I know nothing about Mountain Caribou. I guess I pissed off a bunch of the boys from MOE last year and have lost all respect from them. LMAO!!!! If them boys actually did their jobs instead of spending all their time trying to figure out where dana hunts, then maybe the Caribou might stand a chance. ;)

To lose respect, there would have to be some respect in the first place - and that's one hell of a stretch of the imagination. I'm willing to bet that a professional wildlife biologist knows a heck of a lot more about caribou than a ribbon-hanging woodchuck. :-P

[Will]

Who the hell is "willy"...........? :lol:

[Orangethunder]

If you want to talk wolves/caribou/feral horses, do it here- If you want to trade jabs, do it via PM.


If anyone has a really high paying job feel free to PM.

Beyond that I lost where we were talking about shooting horses!

[PGK]

I need to know why it's so hard for the average joe blow hunter to figure out that
Decreasing moose = decreasing wolves = potential for increase in caribou
Pretty simple logic to me :?

Anyways, lots of touchy feeling no killy the horseys going on here. They're feral. Get over it. To my understanding, they're having a pretty good impact on the rangeland out there. I also understand the collaring is part of a masters thesis. Similar to a friend of mine's currently happening in the Parsnip area.
And while lord almighty tree flagger caribou expert steve dana tells us that wolves eat caribou, he does not tell us
When wolves eat caribou
How many caribou wolves eat
What parts of the caribou the wolves eat
What overall percentage of the wolf's diet is caribou
Hell we don't even know what questions to ask because we know so little about wolves!

This got really blown out of proportion.

[horshur]

When wolves eat caribou
How many caribou wolves eat
What parts of the caribou the wolves eat
What overall percentage of the wolf's diet is caribou
Hell we don't even know what questions to ask because we know so little about wolves!

.

sorry bud...but what the hell have the bios been doing the last 30 years if they can still not answer those questions.

you university types are diligent in declaring that the universe is finite and can and even mostly is already known...except...not even close and a common slow person can see it almost every day.

[The MAN]

I hunted west of 120 mile area this year and there were so many horses it was stupid, horse shit absolutely everywhere! If the horses were not a native spiecies then they should get slaughtered as they are making it a mess for the deer and moose, just the damn shit alone was unbelieveable!
I would support most comments by shooting the horses then all the grazing areas aren't getting decimated by horses, and nothing wrong with plugging a few wolves!:razz:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So if doing a wolf cull is too hot of a political potatoe..........what are some other sugestions??

Sterilizing seems waaaaay too costly.....

Anyone got some 1080 lying around??:roll: Goes well with horse meat.:wink:

SSS

[ElkMasterC]

Why don't we CAPTURE the horses, and SELL 'em to the Wolves, then when the wolves run out of money, EVICT 'em for vagrancy, and let the Mountain caribou move in at Gov't Subsidized rents.

I gotta run for PM sometime. My Degree in "I Know-It-Allogy" will serve me well. Pretty common degree here, so I'd best beat the rush to Victoria.

Unless of course, the wolves learn to RIDE the Horses, and we get Wolf Cavalry.
Now that would be bad.
Then we'd have to hire these guys:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/Bearcavalry.jpg


We'll end up with an Australian Cane Toad situation....you just watch.....

[eastkoot]

First get permission from FN to allow a hunt(cause they claim to own the horses), MOE to donate X amount of dollars for each horse killed to FNs.. Then, have a GOS only for new recruits to hunting, it's pretty well a guaranteed hunt so they won't get discouraged.. The meat can then be poisoned on the sly and put out for the wolves provided they will eat horse meat after having eaten caribou.

FN's get income
New recruits to hunting (increasing hunter numbers)
Fewer horses
Fewer wolves
More caribou

[ruger#1]

I think we should call the Spanish so they can take their horses back and then shoot the wolves. There were no horses in North America until the Spanish brought them.

[Browningmirage]

The last southern mountain caribou will be eaten by a collared wolf. Then the MOE will finally have enough proof and will declare, "Yes, wolves do actually eat caribou."

Werent you the guy that posted something about Grizzlies taking out Caribou too? Dont you hang ribbon for forestry...isnt habitat fragmentation caused by forestry one of the main reasons for decline in mountain caribou? The cause for decline is not wolves, it is the habitat fragmentation done by the forestry sector which brought the moose. The moose were followed by wolves, and now we have the current conundrum we are in. if i were to go to the last mountain caribou and kill it, does that mean that i am responsible we lost the species...or are the actual factors that contributed to the real decline responsible...

GG is right, but what do you care, what purpose does science serve anyways...

[one-shot-wonder]

Anyone got some 1080 lying around??:roll: Goes well with horse meat.:wink:

SSS

I know where we can find some!!

If we feed the ribbon-tiers some, than by the sounds of it we will be saving the caribou in the end!!!! Sounds like a plan to me.:razz:

[KevinB]

I think GG's post was bang on.

Just because he has a few negative things to say about hunters, doesn't mean he's not right on the mark.

Nowhere in it did I read that he was slamming or ripping other hunters. Pointing out some realities that hunters need to get into their heads, yes.

Some of the responses to his post illustrated his point for him IMO.

Any Gov. scientist or Bio that wants a decision maker to back them on something controversial needs to have an over-abundance of data. And even then most controversial things are nearly an impossible sell even if it is the right thing to do. Especially when it comes to cutesy-pootsey wolves that are the symbol of the wilderness in every urban person's (voters) mind.

Why are hunters always so quick to jump on it and call the researchers idiots who don't know that they're doing? Is it some kind of territorial thing? Just because people like us spend years in the bush observing animals, are we really that sensitive to maybe having someone else come along that might know something we don't, or figure out something we haven't yet figured out for ourselves?

...Flame suit donned.....:redface:


.

[6616]

I think GG's post was bang on.

Just because he has a few negative things to say about hunters, doesn't mean he's not right on the mark.

Nowhere in it did I read that he was slamming or ripping other hunters. Pointing out some realities that hunters need to get into their heads, yes.

Some of the responses to his post illustrated his point for him IMO.

Any Gov. scientist or Bio that wants a decision maker to back them on something controversial needs to have an over-abundance of data. And even then most controversial things are nearly an impossible sell even if it is the right thing to do. Especially when it comes to cutesy-pootsey wolves that are the symbol of the wilderness in every urban person's (voters) mind.

Why are hunters always so quick to jump on it and call the researchers idiots who don't know that they're doing? Is it some kind of territorial thing? Just because people like us spend years in the bush observing animals, are we really that sensitive to maybe having someone else come along that might know something we don't, or figure out something we haven't yet figured out for ourselves?

...Flame suit donned.....:redface:


.

I agree with you Kevin, even though GG took a couple of individual swipes in his post I'm certain his concern is for the future of hunting, and a lot of us really do need a wake-up call in this regard.

There is safety in numbers, recruitment/retention is the single most important issue facing hunters today and not withstanding conservation, regulations and hunter input into regulations and management objectives must begin to reflect that.

Flame suit zipped up tight, go for it...!

[Will]

We just need another shift towards wearing Fur and other Natural materials....give a living back to the fur traders and we can control Predator numbers again while looking Snappy at the Mall !
It's a win win situation :rolleyes:


http://www.furoutlet.com/images/BLUE-FOX-FUR-SCARF-01_a.jpg

[dana]

Funny thing is the this thread has nothing to do with hunting or hunters. It has everything to do with a species that is at the verge of extinction in the southern portion of the province. I have seen first hand how the poor policies of the Liberal plan to save the caribou drastically affect small communities. Again, this has nothing to do with the small numbers of hunters. Get over yourself GG. I personally saw the lack of desire from the ministry staff last year to even come out and investigate a prime breeding bull that had been killed by a grizz. They flat out said they could care less. Yup, these were Ministry staffers. They did suddenly show interest when the owner of the mill I was doing work for called the Kamloops paper. This is something that affects way way more people than the numbers of hunters in this province. Bad policy leading to more bad policy, all in an effort to buy green votes. Nothing more and nothing less.

[dana]

Werent you the guy that posted something about Grizzlies taking out Caribou too? Dont you hang ribbon for forestry...isnt habitat fragmentation caused by forestry one of the main reasons for decline in mountain caribou? The cause for decline is not wolves, it is the habitat fragmentation done by the forestry sector which brought the moose. The moose were followed by wolves, and now we have the current conundrum we are in. if i were to go to the last mountain caribou and kill it, does that mean that i am responsible we lost the species...or are the actual factors that contributed to the real decline responsible...

GG is right, but what do you care, what purpose does science serve anyways...

The caribou were long on their way out well before the age of modern forestry. Actually, they were on their way out well before the Overlanders came through. There once were vast herds that numbered in the thousands upon thousands. The FN's fought wars over the hunting grounds.

[tooty]

My biologist buddy just came back from Kamloops last week after a course on trapping,collaring and generally what to do with all the bloody wolves eating up all the bou.He still stands behind the science of reducing moose populations,but thinks there is not enough hunters to have a impact soon enough,so more has to be done to reduce wolve populations.People are going to scream if we start blasting wolves.But it needs to be done to put in balance wolve/mountian caribou populations.

[Wildfoot]

f*#k the feral horses.. kill'em all.

[tooty]

There are some damn fine horses running out there.Should be a way to put them to good use without killing them.Government round up,Free horse to who ever wants one.What little girl wouldn't want a pony for Christmas.:grin:

[Orangethunder]

There are some damn fine horses running out there.Should be a way to put them to good use without killing them.Government round up,Free horse to who ever wants one.What little girl wouldn't want a pony for Christmas.:grin:


They are free as we speak. If you can catch one you can have it, just bring your 'A' game cowboy.

[tooty]

Don't have use for no damn bittin' hooved,snortin' furball.Just like owning a boat.

[tooty]

One again,my expertice has exceeded all my expectations.You lucky fellow hunters you.

[GoatGuy]

Funny thing is the this thread has nothing to do with hunting or hunters. It has everything to do with a species that is at the verge of extinction in the southern portion of the province. I have seen first hand how the poor policies of the Liberal plan to save the caribou drastically affect small communities. Again, this has nothing to do with the small numbers of hunters.

It has everything to do with hunters.

In the past hunters were the ones who took care of wildlife and habitat.

Today hunters care about shooting trophy animals, competing with other hunters, excluding other hunters - whatever whimsickle idea of the day that they believe will improve they're success as compared to others.

99% of these ideas are at the expense of all other hunters - the consideration is inconsiderate.




Get over yourself GG. I personally saw the lack of desire from the ministry staff last year to even come out and investigate a prime breeding bull that had been killed by a grizz. They flat out said they could care less. Yup, these were Ministry staffers. They did suddenly show interest when the owner of the mill I was doing work for called the Kamloops paper. This is something that affects way way more people than the numbers of hunters in this province. Bad policy leading to more bad policy, all in an effort to buy green votes. Nothing more and nothing less.

You've proven my point.

You'll never realize how many ships you've sunk with your comments.

[dana]

How is it that I've sunk ships? I thought you said no one of any importance reads what I have to say on the internet? LMAO! Yea, too bad I found that grizz killed bull right before the Remembrance Day Longweekend. No one from the Ministry wanted to come out and do their jobs because they were too busy making plans to try to 'one up' dana and his crew and prove they were all that eh? LOL! And to think they all had their asses handed to them on that front too. :twisted:

[lunatic]

:eek: Wow......some people are really full of themselves! FYI - definition of conceit: excessively high opinion of oneself.

[David Heitsman]

http://www.fonv.ca/articles/wildhorses.html

I questioned the Vancouver Sun article stating that horses were used by the Indians prior to Simon Fraser's exploration but this seems to be the source. It's a good read for information purposes.

[eastkoot]

Damn you Dana!!!!!:razz:
http://www.cargolaw.com/images/New%20Carissa.jpg

[6616]

Going back to the original article on CBC, take a look at the comments on their web site, cripes we have a $hit load of bleeding hearts out there these days...! It was only 4 horses, you'd think it was a massacre judging by those outrageous comments...!

[willy442]

I think GG needs to look in the mirror when he says hunters are their worst enemy. He might think ripping and tearing at fellow hunters who disagree with him is fun on the internet, but it just takes all his credibility away.

Dana; Is it not true that one must have some degree of credibility before it can be taken away.
The ministry and many of it's people have worked very hard at destroying any credibility or benifit of doubt given to them. For many years one of the Northern Bio's (John Elliott) that GG has refered to many times in negative fashion, studied Mountain Caribou and the preditation on them. One of the lessons from this work, that many of us already knew was that Grizzly Bears were one of the main predators on the calving grounds. Through out the rest of the year wolves took over as the main consumer. Now low and behold we are again studing if Wolves eat Caribou in the central interior. I guess maybe they don't taste as good to a Wolf south of Prince George.
My experience is every few years we educate a few more Bio's, turn them loose in the field so they can restudy something that has already been studied to death. We then let them dream up new fixes for the screw ups of the last guy that failed to conduct his study properly and the circle continues.

Those of you that are preaching back the Bio's go ahead. Until I see an end to the political interference in decisions and recommendations made by them I will remain scepticle at best. I don't doubt the fact that some of our Bio's are capable of improving what we now have if they are allowed. I've just seen them shut down time after time by breaucrates and they always go back to studies of studies and more studies, solving nothing.

[Will]

Until I see an end to the political interference in decisions and recommendations made by them I will remain scepticle at best. I don't doubt the fact that some of our Bio's are capable of improving what we now have if they are allowed. I've just seen them shut down time after time by breaucrates and they always go back to studies of studies and more studies, solving nothing.

I liked that so much I'm gonna post it up again! :grin:


Until I see an end to the political interference in decisions and recommendations made by them I will remain scepticle at best. I don't doubt the fact that some of our Bio's are capable of improving what we now have if they are allowed. I've just seen them shut down time after time by breaucrates and they always go back to studies of studies and more studies, solving nothing.

[horshur]

Quote:
Until I see an end to the political interference in decisions and recommendations made by them I will remain scepticle at best. I don't doubt the fact that some of our Bio's are capable of improving what we now have if they are allowed. I've just seen them shut down time after time by breaucrates and they always go back to studies of studies and more studies, solving nothing.


science is dead if irrational sentiment triumphs.

[Ambush]

Questions. Are the horses protected by law? Can you legaly catch and retain a wild horse? Can you legaly shoot a wild horse?
They are not listed in the hunting regs under any schedule.
Please, only answer if you KNOW.

[GoatGuy]

The ministry and many of it's people have worked very hard at destroying any credibility or benifit of doubt given to them. For many years one of the Northern Bio's (John Elliott) that GG has refered to many times in negative fashion, studied Mountain Caribou and the preditation on them.

The 7B history is the most troubling in the province, bar none. I'd imagine Bridger can extrapolate on that. Suffice it to say the regulations didn't deal with conservation values and were setup to ensure out of region residents didn't participate in the hunt. Don't think I need to say anything more than sheep allocated at 23/77.


Thought that was Child's who started the work on Caribou?
1970s if I recall correctly? It might have been earlier than that come to think of it. It's in a box somewhere. Talked about habitat fragmentation, logging and indiscriminate burning as major factors.

I'd imagine if there was much work conducted back in the 70s up North it wouldn't have looked at habitat fragmentation, vehicle collisions, intensive logging, snowmobiles, heliskiing, highways, high density human populations, trains or planes either and there was also high utilization by hunting (over-hunting).



One of the lessons from this work, that many of us already knew was that Grizzly Bears were one of the main predators on the calving grounds. Through out the rest of the year wolves took over as the main consumer. Now low and behold we are again studing if Wolves eat Caribou in the central interior. I guess maybe they don't taste as good to a Wolf south of Prince George.


And the work actually said in the end that there is little to no harvestable surplus if predator populations are left unchecked. There hasn't been any harvest on caribou down here for years and before that it was extremely limited LEH.

Funny areas where there were Caribou in the 60s/70s/80s in the south where caribou were crashing had severely depressed grizzly bear populations and almost completely extirpated wolves.

Also the caribou that were collared in the Thompson in the 70s never showed any problems with predators. Tough not to run into a highway/city or intensive logging when your homerange is over 600 square kilometres.


Funny.

I'll also say it's not about being right it's' about doing something. Until people start becoming advocates for caribou we wont' get anywhere.

[willy442]

The 7B history is the most troubling in the province, bar none. I'd imagine Bridger can extrapolate on that. Suffice it to say the regulations didn't deal with conservation values and were setup to ensure out of region residents didn't participate in the hunt. Don't think I need to say anything more than sheep allocated at 23/77.


Thought that was Child's who started the work on Caribou?
1970s if I recall correctly? It might have been earlier than that come to think of it. It's in a box somewhere. Talked about habitat fragmentation, logging and indiscriminate burning as major factors.

I'd imagine if there was much work conducted back in the 70s up North it wouldn't have looked at habitat fragmentation, vehicle collisions, intensive logging, snowmobiles, heliskiing, highways, high density human populations, trains or planes either and there was also high utilization by hunting (over-hunting).




And the work actually said in the end that there is little to no harvestable surplus if predator populations are left unchecked. There hasn't been any harvest on caribou down here for years and before that it was extremely limited LEH.

Funny areas where there were Caribou in the 60s/70s/80s in the south where caribou were crashing had severely depressed grizzly bear populations and almost completely extirpated wolves.

Also the caribou that were collared in the Thompson in the 70s never showed any problems with predators. Tough not to run into a highway/city or intensive logging when your homerange is over 600 square kilometres.


Funny.

I'll also say it's not about being right it's' about doing something. Until people start becoming advocates for caribou we wont' get anywhere.

Let me put this one up again.

It has everything to do with hunters.

In the past hunters were the ones who took care of wildlife and habitat.

Today hunters care about shooting trophy animals, competing with other hunters, excluding other hunters - whatever whimsickle idea of the day that they believe will improve they're success as compared to others.

99% of these ideas are at the expense of all other hunters - the consideration is inconsiderate

Give it up punk!

[Ltbullken]

I say get rid of the wild horses. They will take an area over and eat it's forage, competing with other game. They are like feral swine. Shoot 'em all in their tracks. I'd eat the pig but leave the horse.

Don't know if using them to add food to the wolf population is the way to do it! The healthier the wolves are the greater their survival and the more meat they'll need further on.

Anyway, wild horses have no place in the wild. Shoot 'em!

[Mr. Dean]

Give it up punk!

tisk tisk..... :mad:

[gamehunter6o]

By the sound of things on the Canadian political scene, hunters should be feeding the wolves with politicians.

[Big7]

Questions. Are the horses protected by law? Can you legaly catch and retain a wild horse? Can you legaly shoot a wild horse?
They are not listed in the hunting regs under any schedule.
Please, only answer if you KNOW.
In the news article (The Province) it does state that there are recommendations that the ferel horses be treated as any other wild game (moose, deer etc.) but as of right now they are not.

It should be noted that the issue is not about whether or not people are killing horses needlessly (the article says that they are transported every year to the slaughter house regardless of caribou studies or not) it is whether or not you agree with using the carcasses to study the behaviour patterns of wolves in order to gain an understanding of how said wolves "could" behave around caribou and what impact they would have.

[Big7]

I guess to try and answer your question, they are not considered a game animal - no season, bag limit etc. If you were a rancher and the horses are desecrating the range land of your cattle - fair game.

[KevinB]

[quote=willy442;374588
Those of you that are preaching back the Bio's go ahead. Until I see an end to the political interference in decisions and recommendations made by them I will remain scepticle at best. I don't doubt the fact that some of our Bio's are capable of improving what we now have if they are allowed. I've just seen them shut down time after time by breaucrates and they always go back to studies of studies and more studies, solving nothing.[/quote]



Would it not be better, then, to single out thebeaurocrats who create the political interference, rather than publicly going after the Bio's and others who are more often than not caught in the middle? I would imagine that they could use a lot more support from hunters. If we keep publicly slandering the Bio's and other MOE staff, how much longer do you expect that they will bother to work for the interests of hunters? Once hunters alienate them, were done, because no-one else in Gov gives a sweet damn about us.

I agree the system as it is is crummy, but the only way to improve it is to work with it. Sitting around pointing out the deficiencies isn't very productive.

[willy442]

Would it not be better, then, to single out thebeaurocrats who create the political interference, rather than publicly going after the Bio's and others who are more often than not caught in the middle? I would imagine that they could use a lot more support from hunters. If we keep publicly slandering the Bio's and other MOE staff, how much longer do you expect that they will bother to work for the interests of hunters? Once hunters alienate them, were done, because no-one else in Gov gives a sweet damn about us.

I agree the system as it is is crummy, but the only way to improve it is to work with it. Sitting around pointing out the deficiencies isn't very productive.

Kevin B;

I like to think a good starting point would be to get the money we put into hunting and fishing licence's put back into the coffers for the Bio's. This would give them some sort of reasonable budget to complete sound work and implement some enhancement stratagies. Many times over the years when MOE attended our G/O meetings, funding was thier biggest issue. The result of lack of funding is, the bio's hunker down in an office and compile the stuff GG cuts and pastes. Money would actually allow for more valuable field time.

[daycort]

What's the going rate per pound for a meat horse right now...?

I had a friend just sell a 4 year old mare that weighed 1200 lbs that sold for $470. meat price. what is that about 28 cents a lb.

[dana]

"Also the caribou that were collared in the Thompson in the 70s never showed any problems with predators."

Hmm, ever think that maybe loosing over 30 animals in one night of poaching had anything to do with why they stuggled in the 70's????

[GoatGuy]

Kevin B;

I like to think a good starting point would be to get the money we put into hunting and fishing licence's put back into the coffers for the Bio's. This would give them some sort of reasonable budget to complete sound work and implement some enhancement stratagies. Many times over the years when MOE attended our G/O meetings, funding was thier biggest issue. The result of lack of funding is, the bio's hunker down in an office and compile the stuff GG cuts and pastes. Money would actually allow for more valuable field time.

In one wise mans words (a biologist/researcher): "start utilizing the animals you have before you start worrying about making more."


I guess the question is: What is the revenue generated through licenses/royalties and what are the operating costs of the F&W branch?

You can answer

[GoatGuy]

"Also the caribou that were collared in the Thompson in the 70s never showed any problems with predators."

Hmm, ever think that maybe loosing over 30 animals in one night of poaching had anything to do with why they stuggled in the 70's????

I thought the latest tirade was about predators?

I thought Willy said the solution was predator control?

Now I'm confused.

[KevinB]

Kevin B;

I like to think a good starting point would be to get the money we put into hunting and fishing licence's put back into the coffers for the Bio's. This would give them some sort of reasonable budget to complete sound work and implement some enhancement stratagies. Many times over the years when MOE attended our G/O meetings, funding was thier biggest issue. The result of lack of funding is, the bio's hunker down in an office and compile the stuff GG cuts and pastes. Money would actually allow for more valuable field time.

I agree Willy, it's hard to expect them to do some of the things they need to without a few $$'s. But I don't blame the bio's for that, they hunker down in an office because they can't do anything else. This would be one of those times when government needs to act a little more like a successful corporation; if you had a problem that needed fixing, and you have a talented and enthusiastic employee that can do it, you'd try to give them the tools they needed to get it done.

BUT I suspect GG is making a good point here:



I guess the question is: What is the revenue generated through licenses/royalties and what are the operating costs of the F&W branch?

You can answer

I don't know, but I would hazard a guess that resident license and tag sales don't come close to covering the operating costs of the F&W even as it is.

[willy442]

I guess the question is: What is the revenue generated through licenses/royalties and what are the operating costs of the F&W branch?

GG. How about start throwing some answers out instead of always avoiding the questions and posting bogus stats?

The fact is we were levied money for the HC fund also. What is this money being used for presently? How much of it is going to wild life and how much is going into funding offices, meetings etc.?

[willy442]

In one wise mans words (a biologist/researcher): "start utilizing the animals you have before you start worrying about making more."

I would hope this wise man has considered utilizing a few to make more. If not I guess you and a couple of nannies can keep the Goat population thriving, what about the other spiecies? We will need a Sheep Guy, Moose Guy, Caribou Guy etc. Lets leave the Wolf Guy out though.:lol:

[GoatGuy]

I guess the question is: What is the revenue generated through licenses/royalties and what are the operating costs of the F&W branch?

GG. How about start throwing some answers out instead of always avoiding the questions and posting bogus stats?


Willy, I already know the answers - you seem to be an expert or at least in-tune with what's going on I figured I'd let you post the answers. Go ahead.

Funds generated through licenses and royalties vs. operating costs.

See the red.



The fact is we were levied money for the HC fund also. What is this money being used for presently? How much of it is going to wild life and how much is going into funding offices, meetings etc.?


You weren't levied money - it's a surcharge that's put on licenses. The money is being used for projects across the province - too many to list really. It can't be used for funding offices/meetings other than those related to projects and the HCTF staff. This is not a MoE fund - it's a totally separate entity. I have a look at the projects every year.

Fishing in the dark?

[GoatGuy]

In one wise mans words (a biologist/researcher): "start utilizing the animals you have before you start worrying about making more."

I would hope this wise man has considered utilizing a few to make more. If not I guess you and a couple of nannies can keep the Goat population thriving, what about the other spiecies? We will need a Sheep Guy, Moose Guy, Caribou Guy etc. Lets leave the Wolf Guy out though.:lol:

He meant start shooting some animals instead of stockpiling them and feeding the wolves. Worry about utilizing the resource you have instead of making another one.

[eastkoot]

Don't know if using them to add food to the wolf population is the way to do it! The healthier the wolves are the greater their survival and the more meat they'll need further on.



From what I watched on Aminal Planet last night wolves DO NOT prey on Feral horses.. It's even documented that if wolves "bother " deer herds, the deer actually mingle with feral horses as protection from wolves. A very interesting one hour documentary..

[dana]

I thought the latest tirade was about predators?

I thought Willy said the solution was predator control?

Now I'm confused.

Hmm, you're confused are ya? I can tell. You always are posting out of your ass and making things up as you go. It's easy to tell you get confused alot.:tongue:

You stated that in the 70's there was agressive predator control and yet the caribou still were declining. I just gave ya the reason why and you play this game that you are confused.

Back in the day, the bios actually had balls, unlike those of today. Predator control was a big part of wildlife management. We don't seem to name landmarks Kilpil mtn anymore. In the current world, trappers are going extinct. And instead of paying them to kill wolves, we are paying them to live trap them so some bio can study them some more and prove they do or do not kill caribou. But, they aren't out there enough to know either way. We saw a pack of wolves in July and one had a collar. This was the same place we saw a cow caribou. Do you think they killed that caribou. Who knows as they will never find her carcuss in that thick country. And never seen another soul out there checkin on the collared wolf. As soon as the season opened in Aug, I started packing the rifle. I would have loved to have run into that collared *******. Maybe that cow made it and survived. Probably not.
In the past, our ranchers did a real good job keeping the peace. But post-BSE and given the Global Depression they are now going out of business. They have cut back to the home front with small herds and aren't ranging them any more, thus the wolf is expanding his territory and litters are very large.
In the past predator control helped. There were guides and outfitters killing numerous grizz per year. Now, not a single outfitter in the area as they were run off by the gov and we are limited to 4 tags in the most northern units. These tags of course are nothing but a joke as they start Apr 1 and end May 31. Most if all the drainages are still choked full of snow come the end of the season and rarely does a bear ever get killed. And yet I found that grizz killed caribou and I'm the ass because I brought it to the Ministry's attention and they didn't want to deal with it. Funny that another caribou fell to a grizz later on that winter. Probably not the same bear either. But, the LEH season are so constrictive, hunters, who GG says used to manage the wildlife, aren't able too. Who's fault is that??? We have grizz all over the North Thompson, not just in the Blue River units. Heck, I'm seeing them right outside of town limits here in Clearwater, but not a single grizz draw for these units. You can't blame the hunters, as they don't make the rules. The Ministry does. Time for them to shit or get off the pot. They want change, then CHANGE. Stop whinning about it being the hunters fault all the time.
And BTW, the Ministry IS government. Why do you think they should get special treatment and never have the public voicing concerns about the way TAX PAYERS money is spent? Name another ministry that gets to do as they wish without any public concern raised. It is OUR money, so we have the right to bitch if we think the Government is screwing up. That is what Democracy is all about. The PEOPLE are not SHEEP. They have a voice. You are the one that chose to work for the government. You should accept there will be critism.

[Kye]

As soon as the season opened in Aug, I started packing the rifle. I would have loved to have run into that collared *******. Maybe that cow made it and survived. Probably not.


Wow, that would have been truly asshole move. I feel sorry for you that you have that much hate that you would feel the need to do that.

[dana]

No, I don't have that much hate. Rather, I actually have a strong desire to have my kids and my grandkids see caribou here in their traditional range, instead of rocking in my rocking chair telling them stories of what used to be. The wolf has always been here. I have no ill feelings for him. He is doing what he needs to do to eat. Caribou are an easy prey species for him, so he chooses to eat them. I would have shot anyone of those wolves, which come Aug 1st were legal to shoot, in an effort to help save the cow caribou that lives in the exact same area.
GG says I don't care about the caribou and he is absolutely wrong on that account. My wife's family homesteaded this area and they lived on Caribou back in the 20's. I'm very big on family heritage, and the caribou is a big part of that. My wife's great grandfather trapped wolves and he knew the benefit of predator control. For them, the stake was life or death. If the wolf eats all the game, your family starves.

[Kye]

I'm not meaning wolves in general but a collared one? All I see this doing is setting back the hard work done by bio's to protect the cariboo. Whether you personally agree with this approach or not, it seems pointless to destroy work of others. You talk about money wasting by the ministry, as I see it you would be wasting money by intentionally shooting a collared wolf. Maybe not illegal, but not ethical.

[bayou]

No, I don't have that much hate. Rather, I actually have a strong desire to have my kids and my grandkids see caribou here in their traditional range, instead of rocking in my rocking chair telling them stories of what used to be. The wolf has always been here. I have no ill feelings for him. He is doing what he needs to do to eat. Caribou are an easy prey species for him, so he chooses to eat them. I would have shot anyone of those wolves, which come Aug 1st were legal to shoot, in an effort to help save the cow caribou that lives in the exact same area.
GG says I don't care about the caribou and he is absolutely wrong on that account. My wife's family homesteaded this area and they lived on Caribou back in the 20's. I'm very big on family heritage, and the caribou is a big part of that. My wife's great grandfather trapped wolves and he knew the benefit of predator control. For them, the stake was life or death. If the wolf eats all the game, your family starves.


Kinda tough for the bios to do there studys if you shoot the collared wolf they will lose a lot of data.
Just curious back in the 20's was there a season on caribou if so how many or did your wifes family just shoot them for sustenance

[Mr. Dean]

If you *nice* folk here wish to continue with innuendo's, insults, and the like.... Well, you know.

As your Momma said; Play in the sandbox without kicking sand in the others eyes. And while we're at it, keep to point.

[dana]

I'm not meaning wolves in general but a collared one? All I see this doing is setting back the hard work done by bio's to protect the cariboo. Whether you personally agree with this approach or not, it seems pointless to destroy work of others. You talk about money wasting by the ministry, as I see it you would be wasting money by intentionally shooting a collared wolf. Maybe not illegal, but not ethical.


Funny story that I heard last winter. Not sure if it is true or not but still funny none the less. Ministry is paying upwards of 3 grand of our tax money to trappers if they live trap a wof so they can collar them and study the wolf even more than they have in the last 40 years. Trapper live traps a wolf and calls the ministry. They come up, and he wants his cash before he lets them deal with the wolf. They pay him. They then do their thing. When they let the wolf go, the trapper grabs his rifle and shoots it right before their eyes. He says, now I'll take my pelt. :-P:-P

The ministry doesnt actually want to see if the wolves kill caribou. They just want to prolong their jobs and do their studies. Studies which have been done again and again on the wolf. But there is 2010 money to be spent and they will spend every penny and come up with inconclusive data. Way easier to point the finger at the forest sector and kill the only jobs left in the valley than do something like actually killing wolves.

[willy442]

Willy, I already know the answers - you seem to be an expert or at least in-tune with what's going on I figured I'd let you post the answers. Go ahead.

Funds generated through licenses and royalties vs. operating costs.

See the red.

I don't recall saying it would take them out of the red. What I did say is it will help in the big picture. Get it the one you fail to understand.




You weren't levied money - it's a surcharge that's put on licenses. The money is being used for projects across the province - too many to list really. It can't be used for funding offices/meetings other than those related to projects and the HCTF staff. This is not a MoE fund - it's a totally separate entity. I have a look at the projects every year.

Levied or surcharge, who gives a shit. It was money to be put back into wildlife. Let's not forget my father sat on the board for a few years and watched hunters dollars being spent on Duck Ponds and the such down South with very little coming back North for wildlife. Is it still the same?Seeing as you see all the projects. Better yet you are an expert at cut and paste, so how about posting them up in your spare time.

Fishing in the dark?

There is no need to fish in the dark, unless you run on the garbage you continually spew out in your propaganda.

It truly amaze's me how some one that was still in diapers back in what you refer to as the old days and now delivers packages, can even try and put forth some of the statements you do. I see Dana refers to you having a government job also. God help us if you are trying to be a Biologist. I'm sure you would not even make a decent CI inspector.

[willy442]

The ministry doesnt actually want to see if the wolves kill caribou. They just want to prolong their jobs and do their studies. Studies which have been done again and again on the wolf. But there is 2010 money to be spent and they will spend every penny and come up with inconclusive data. Way easier to point the finger at the forest sector and kill the only jobs left in the valley than do something like actually killing wolves.

Dana this has been the case ever since the first Fish and Wildlife meeting I ever attended back in the early 70's.
I only have one question. Why did you add the word inconclusive to Goat Guy's vocabulary? That word alone will keep him employed by government until retirement at our expense.:smile:

[tooty]

Ok,I'm going to talk to my biologist friend tomorrow and find out what is going on.We have to go trap some elk ,but I'll ask him about all this wolve,horse,caribou crap.You guys are starting to sound like a bunch of whinny ars old ladies.Just saying.Not saying it's right,just saying.

[dana]

Tooty,
If your job and the viability of your community lived or died based on the whole Caribou debate, you might just understand why some of us take this personal.

[Ltbullken]

From what I watched on Aminal Planet last night wolves DO NOT prey on Feral horses.. It's even documented that if wolves "bother " deer herds, the deer actually mingle with feral horses as protection from wolves. A very interesting one hour documentary..

My brother the biologist says wolves actually feed almost exclusively on mice. What you guys think of that? I know wolves might not prey on feral horses but a horse shot and left to rot is great food for a wolf.

[eastkoot]

My brother the biologist says wolves actually feed almost exclusively on mice. What you guys think of that? I know wolves might not prey on feral horses but a horse shot and left to rot is great food for a wolf.

Rotten horse or a nice fresh caribou???? No brainer there...:razz:

[Mr. Dean]

Thread isn't about whether or not it's *right* to kill these horses. It's about whether or not if it's a feasible plan of feeding wolves to sustain caribou herds. The fact that wild horse is proposed is moot.


Stick to point. :smile:

[killman]

A little bounty on wolves would probably work as well.

[Mr. Dean]

Rotten horse or a nice fresh caribou???? No brainer there...:razz:

All animals will choose the easiest path to a destination. IMO a buffet table would see more action than the "meal on the run" diner ever will.

[MattB]

So, say i go out and shoot a horse out of the tunkwa herd tomorrow. Is there any trouble i could get in from that? Theres getting to be a pretty large herd out there and im beginning to worry about the mule deer in this country. I figure i better start killing some horses as theyre competing with the mule deer. There arent many wolves in this neck of the woods so i dont have to worry about them. Plus, have you guys seen what wild horses do to recently planted trees? They destroy plantations in no time! And they seem to like to sh!t in the same spot and its always in the middle of the road. Hunting around here you gotta keep a shovel in the back of the truck and everytime you encounter a horse sh!t pile you gotta get out and scoop it off the road, only then can you get around it! They're nothing but a nuisance!

[dana]

That horseshit stinks as bad as the shit being thrown around in this thread eh? LOL!

[Gateholio]

So, say i go out and shoot a horse out of the tunkwa herd tomorrow. Is there any trouble i could get in from that?

Unless they are specifically protected, then wouldn't they be considered livestock?

And if they are livestock then they are considered property, so you might be charged with destruction of property if the owner shows up and provides proof of ownership.:biggrin:

[Will]

My brother the biologist says wolves actually feed almost exclusively on mice. What you guys think of that?
Sounds like someone's been reading too many Farley Mowat novels......

An 80+ LB carnivore would need to catch a helluva lot of Mice, nevermind enough to sustain a pack of them.....they are Wolves not Coyotes.
They Kill and eat Large Mammals...it's thier Speciality !:smile:

[Ltbullken]

Rotten horse or a nice fresh caribou???? No brainer there...:razz:

Conserving energy in the pursuit of food is a better instinctual survival strategy. You're right... no brainer.

[Ltbullken]

That horseshit stinks as bad as the shit being thrown around in this thread eh? LOL!

Feral horses and feral swine dominate habitat and push out indigenous animals. Even the livestock laws forbid unpenned horses and swine. Tunkwa eh....??

[SteadyGirl]

Feral horses and feral swine dominate habitat and push out indigenous animals.

So ranchers cattle are indigenous now? D11Cats, would they be indigenous? Logging truck after logging truck of indigenousness Right On


If anyone in the Koots has a horse they can no longer care for, feel free to send a pm. No questions asked, you can drop off at my house in the front pens. I have extra time over the winter and too much hay for the horses I have anyway.

[longleader]

"the biologist says wolves feed almost exclusively on mice. What you guys think of that?"

Well since you asked, but please, no offence intended. I realize that much of the general public has been duped into believing this, along with other fallacies and half-truths. But BIOLOGISTS?? It makes one wonder if their resource material has degenerated into Farley Mowat novels, Paul Watson video clips, and the garbage put out by other "ultra preservationist" groups.

It seems to me that much of the real knowledge out there, much of it in the old timers' heads, is sadly being completely ignored or discounted. By and large, the real world is seen and interpreted by common people who are out in it, possibly work in it, don't have blinders on and believe their eyes, and draw their conclusions from what they actually observe, through exercising common sense. Degrees don't necessarily make one smarter, although you would think the learning involved would hone the learning process. However, common sense still is a crirical ingredient..

[hunter1947]

All the wolves scats I have seen over the years are filled with deer hair and bones ,a wolf will take anything they can get ,even a mouse.

[tooty]

Tooty,
If your job and the viability of your community lived or died based on the whole Caribou debate, you might just understand why some of us take this personal.
I understand that 100%.I am very involved with restoring elk herds on the coast,believe me caribou herds are important to me as well.I am just going to get real information right from the source.Just giving you guys the gears.Like I mentioned before my buddy just came back from Kamloops,it was all about wovles,mountain caribou,habitat loss and what to do about it,very big in the ministry right now.

[horshur]

there has been a vast 'World View" shift.

this is more of a philosophical debate than anything

the university folks function in a dichotomy more so than most....but are lost in sentiment because they have no base.

what was a base has erroded to the point the intellectual will mock...

yet he has no firm ground to stand so is easily discredited....

the result is irrational sentiment in the guise of intellect.

the memory of the past pulls on our hearts but we are convinced things have changed...we are conflicted and at odds with ourselves and nature...continually we trust to evolve and yet our mind betrays the truth....those who opt out of there role in life and betray our ancestors lean very hard on sentiment not rationality.

The intellectual will not have any voice if nature has it's way...

[SteadyGirl]

The intellectual will not have any voice if nature has it's way...


Thank god:!: and sweet sweet mother nature:!:

[sealevel]

Maybe HBC should have a horse shooting derby....Someone shot a couple horse`s out of that tunkwa herd already.....I remember reading about all the bleeding hearts pi$$ing and moaning about it.

[KevinB]

[quote=MattB;375850]So, say i go out and shoot a horse out of the tunkwa herd tomorrow. Is there any trouble i could get in from that? quote]

good point there Matt! Just make sure you don't shoot 'em in the Park, I believe it's only open to shooting during a legal hunting season....although, it doesn't say that you have to be shooting for the purpose of hunting, just that you have to be shooting during a hunting season...hmmm...horse steaks anyone? :rolleyes: There's a lot of meat on one of those horses. They look pretty healthy. If I knew for sure it was legal, I'd be all over it if I had an empty freezer. Could have filled several freezers with them this fall.

And if you want to help out the muleys in the Park, shoot some of the whitetails too...I never did see a muley in the part of the Park I was hunting all fall, just whitetails. If they do end up starting an antlerless WT LEH next fall, I'll be all over that one, too. I guess that's another thread, though...

[KevinB]

Thread isn't about whether or not it's *right* to kill these horses. It's about whether or not if it's a feasible plan of feeding wolves to sustain caribou herds. The fact that wild horse is proposed is moot.


Stick to point. :smile:

I guess I should go back and re-read the article...but didn't it say that they were using the horses as bait for traps as part of a study? Where did it say they were using the horses to feed wolves to keep them off the caribou? If they need something to bait a trap with, then using some of the wild horses that aren't a native species seems like as good an idea as any.

[GoatGuy]

Hmm, you're confused are ya? I can tell. You always are posting out of your ass and making things up as you go. It's easy to tell you get confused alot.:tongue:

You stated that in the 70's there was agressive predator control and yet the caribou still were declining. I just gave ya the reason why and you play this game that you are confused.

Back in the day, the bios actually had balls, unlike those of today. Predator control was a big part of wildlife management. We don't seem to name landmarks Kilpil mtn anymore. In the current world, trappers are going extinct. And instead of paying them to kill wolves, we are paying them to live trap them so some bio can study them some more and prove they do or do not kill caribou. But, they aren't out there enough to know either way. We saw a pack of wolves in July and one had a collar. This was the same place we saw a cow caribou. Do you think they killed that caribou. Who knows as they will never find her carcuss in that thick country. And never seen another soul out there checkin on the collared wolf. As soon as the season opened in Aug, I started packing the rifle. I would have loved to have run into that collared *******. Maybe that cow made it and survived. Probably not.
In the past, our ranchers did a real good job keeping the peace. But post-BSE and given the Global Depression they are now going out of business. They have cut back to the home front with small herds and aren't ranging them any more, thus the wolf is expanding his territory and litters are very large.
In the past predator control helped. There were guides and outfitters killing numerous grizz per year. Now, not a single outfitter in the area as they were run off by the gov and we are limited to 4 tags in the most northern units. These tags of course are nothing but a joke as they start Apr 1 and end May 31. Most if all the drainages are still choked full of snow come the end of the season and rarely does a bear ever get killed. And yet I found that grizz killed caribou and I'm the ass because I brought it to the Ministry's attention and they didn't want to deal with it. Funny that another caribou fell to a grizz later on that winter. Probably not the same bear either. But, the LEH season are so constrictive, hunters, who GG says used to manage the wildlife, aren't able too. Who's fault is that??? We have grizz all over the North Thompson, not just in the Blue River units. Heck, I'm seeing them right outside of town limits here in Clearwater, but not a single grizz draw for these units. You can't blame the hunters, as they don't make the rules. The Ministry does. Time for them to shit or get off the pot. They want change, then CHANGE. Stop whinning about it being the hunters fault all the time.
And BTW, the Ministry IS government. Why do you think they should get special treatment and never have the public voicing concerns about the way TAX PAYERS money is spent? Name another ministry that gets to do as they wish without any public concern raised. It is OUR money, so we have the right to bitch if we think the Government is screwing up. That is what Democracy is all about. The PEOPLE are not SHEEP. They have a voice. You are the one that chose to work for the government. You should accept there will be critism.

You must not have read what I wrote.

Here's the readers digest version: as you say there were very few predators in the 60/70/80s to the point where they were extirpated in several areas in most of the Caribou range in the south and there were caribou collared in the 70s, the herd was crumbling - it had nothing to do with predation.

The other stuff that Willy referred to also stated there's no room for 'sport' harvest without predator control but not that there was any problem with caribou sustaining themselves without harvest.

The caribou in the south have been in bad shape for a long time - there weren't issues with predators or hunting when the caribou were crumbling.

Hopefully you'll get this.

[GoatGuy]

Kinda tough for the bios to do there studys if you shoot the collared wolf they will lose a lot of data.


Very good point.

[GoatGuy]

The ministry doesnt actually want to see if the wolves kill caribou. They just want to prolong their jobs and do their studies.

You've summed things up well - very intelligent answer. :roll: Don't know how somebody as articulate and intelligent as you didn't come up with this before.



Dana this has been the case ever since the first Fish and Wildlife meeting I ever attended back in the early 70's.
I only have one question. Why did you add the word inconclusive to Goat Guy's vocabulary? That word alone will keep him employed by government until retirement at our expense.:smile:

You didn't get it in the 70s and you won't get it today.

Unfortunately you'll never agree with anything done unless it's from somebody who drove around in there truck for a day spotting game and making a conclusion: "there's no game left, I saw one wolf track and he ate everything within 100 miles, there was somebody who had a sheep on the hood of their car, I saw one messy campsite and it must have been a resident hunter, lets put everything on LEH. Oh, and also anybody who's shot a 7yr old ram should be banned from hunting."

Did I miss anything?


I don't work for the government - I'm just a mailman.:sad:

[tooty]

[quote=MattB;375850]So, say i go out and shoot a horse out of the tunkwa herd tomorrow. Is there any trouble i could get in from that? quote]

good point there Matt! Just make sure you don't shoot 'em in the Park, I believe it's only open to shooting during a legal hunting season....although, it doesn't say that you have to be shooting for the purpose of hunting, just that you have to be shooting during a hunting season...hmmm...horse steaks anyone? :rolleyes: There's a lot of meat on one of those horses. They look pretty healthy. If I knew for sure it was legal, I'd be all over it if I had an empty freezer. Could have filled several freezers with them this fall.

And if you want to help out the muleys in the Park, shoot some of the whitetails too...I never did see a muley in the part of the Park I was hunting all fall, just whitetails. If they do end up starting an antlerless WT LEH next fall, I'll be all over that one, too. I guess that's another thread, though...


Better hold on before you shoot some ponies,Check out criminal code 444,in the pure sense of the law it states that you can't shoot feral horses.There is more to it as well.I just spoke to a CO.friend of mine and that is the best that he could figure out.He mentioned that maybe someone with greater knowledge of the law might read the code differently.

[daycort]

If anyone in the Koots has a horse they can no longer care for, feel free to send a pm. No questions asked, you can drop off at my house in the front pens. I have extra time over the winter and too much hay for the horses I have anyway.

Me too, if anyone has a seasoned heading horse that they can no longer care for just drop it off in the pasture behind my house:biggrin:.

[willy442]

You've summed things up well - very intelligent answer. :roll: Don't know how somebody as articulate and intelligent as you didn't come up with this before.



You didn't get it in the 70s and you won't get it today.

Unfortunately you'll never agree with anything done unless it's from somebody who drove around in there truck for a day spotting game and making a conclusion: "there's no game left, I saw one wolf track and he ate everything within 100 miles, there was somebody who had a sheep on the hood of their car, I saw one messy campsite and it must have been a resident hunter, lets put everything on LEH. Oh, and also anybody who's shot a 7yr old ram should be banned from hunting."

Did I miss anything?

Yes as a matter of fact you did. The fact is if you started at your present age to try and actually spend as much time in the Mountains on foot and horse back, lets even include flying, as what I have. You would die an old man before catching up.

I don't work for the government - I'm just a mailman.
:sad:

Good: How about sticking to what you know than and make sure every one recieves thier parcels on time for Christmas instead of trying to run a comic strip on here. I think most have dicredited your crap anyway. Let me beat you to your next post. My crap at least comes from first hand experience, like it or not.:)

[PGK]

lol

I love the experience vs book learning debate

When is the experience crowd gonna get it? You can have all the experience you want, and everyone here does, but if you ain't got the book learnin to glue it all together, you are NEVER going to get the big picture.

[Ltbullken]

So ranchers cattle are indigenous now? D11Cats, would they be indigenous? Logging truck after logging truck of indigenousness Right On


If anyone in the Koots has a horse they can no longer care for, feel free to send a pm. No questions asked, you can drop off at my house in the front pens. I have extra time over the winter and too much hay for the horses I have anyway.

Good point. Cattle aren't feral in the sense that the herd is controlled in numbers and moved off the land in seasons. Ranching is also built around land leases and private hold tenures. Maybe a semantic argument to some. Feral horses and swine numbers are not controlled and occupy land with no controls whatsoever. My mantra... shoot 'em!

[GoatGuy]

Yes as a matter of fact you did. The fact is if you started at your present age to try and actually spend as much time in the Mountains on foot and horse back, lets even include flying, as what I have. You would die an old man before catching up.

Good: How about sticking to what you know than and make sure every one recieves thier parcels on time for Christmas instead of trying to run a comic strip on here. I think most have dicredited your crap anyway. Let me beat you to your next post. My crap at least comes from first hand experience, like it or not.:)


Didn't know it was a competition.

I thought it was about facts.

If I need to shoot a short sheep you've definitely won.

I'll never catch up.

[horshur]

lol

I love the experience vs book learning debate

When is the experience crowd gonna get it? You can have all the experience you want, and everyone here does, but if you ain't got the book learnin to glue it all together, you are NEVER going to get the big picture.

a two way street

there is wisdom and knowledge and they are not mutualy exclusive. You can get knowledge from a book but wisdom comes from experience. With wisdom knowledge can be judged.

[dana]

PGK,
It is also very naive to think those of us that have experience ain't book learned either. Some of us do have degrees behind our names too, we just don't brag about it. ;) I look at a kid fresh out of school as no different than a brand new baby. They still are shittin yellow in their diaper. Get some experiece to back up your learning and then you might earn some respect from those that have been there done that.

[Gateholio]

PGK,
It is also very naive to think those of us that have experience ain't book learned either. Some of us do have degrees behind our names too, we just don't brag about it. ;) I look at a kid fresh out of school as no different than a brand new baby. They still are shittin yellow in their diaper. Get some experiece to back up your learning and then you might earn some respect from those that have been there done that.

Dana, what is your degree in?

[6616]

PGK,
It is also very naive to think those of us that have experience ain't book learned either. Some of us do have degrees behind our names too, we just don't brag about it. ;) I look at a kid fresh out of school as no different than a brand new baby. They still are shittin yellow in their diaper. Get some experiece to back up your learning and then you might earn some respect from those that have been there done that.

And to add to that, this statement applies to some of the older gents like Bridger, you just cannot beat years and years of experience by a person who also has the technical background. Self education is a great thing as well, I know some pretty sharp cookies who don't have degrees. I know a tech who worked in the Wildlife Program all his life and probably knew more then most RPBio's, especially those right out of school.
It's one thing to be able to read and understand technical reports and research papers, but often quite another matter to interpret all aspects of them correctly and put them into practice in the field. That's where expecrience really come into it's own.

Sorry to keep harping.

[Ltbullken]

Here is some other very fascinating information about the wolf diet:

"Beavers play an important roll as an alternative food source in the summer months, in some areas 60% of the wolf's diet is beaver." :eek:

[willy442]

Didn't know it was a competition.

I thought it was about facts.

If I need to shoot a short sheep you've definitely won.

I'll never catch up.

No competition involved. Purely EXPERIENCE and FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE.
Obviously both are area's you are not capable of understanding.
Is it not possible for that lump between your ears to absorb anything but inaccurate numbers and incomplete scientific data?
If you had even the slightest amount of credibility, maybe I would go a little easier on you but the fact is you DON'T!:roll:

[hunter1947]

I do no this as being an avid outdoors man and a trapper when there is a predator problem there is only one way we as humans can fix it.

We can control the predators to get them down to a comfortable level ,lets face it we will never get ride of any predators ,but we can sure control them http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[Fisher-Dude]

Dana, what is your degree in?

I think it's a MKA.












Master of Know-it-All. :?

[sealevel]

Dana, what is your degree in?

ribbon tying 101

[dana]

Actually I have a 4 year bachelor degree in Outdoor Education. This is why I ended up in Clearwater, to get a job in high adventure tourism. Instead I got a job in forestry and 16 years later am still at it. Over those 16 years I have taken numerous forestry courses and workshops, several of which were about managing the North Thompson caribou herd.

[dana]

I think it's a MKA.












Master of Know-it-All. :?

I thought that was the degree both you and GG specialized in. ;)

[SteadyGirl]

18 pages :roll: I don't think I'm the only one layed off. Don't forget about me incase you know of ONE needy horse out there, I promise not to eat him:biggrin:
Gettin pretty bored already and its only been a week
Not 18pages of bored tho, maybe this will be like that movie "never ending story" Instead called "Never ending Thread":roll:

[Steeleco]

18 pages and still fairly civil, now that's news!!!

[tooty]

Off the record,my CO.friend strongly recommends a little heli hunting to reduce wolve populations in areas that mountain caribou are preyed upon heavily by said wolves.Says it's fun.North thompson and some small pockets in region 5 come to mind.This idea of reducing moose pop. to reduce wolves is going to take to long in some areas.

[7mag700]

I don't work for the government - I'm just a mailman.:sad:


Get some experiece to back up your learning and then you might earn some respect from those that have been there done that.

Sorry guys, please don't stop, I just had to draw a parallel here...

The Picture:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cheers.JPG

The caption:

'Well you see, Norm, it's like this . . . A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the heard is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive intake of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of Tequila eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few Tequilas'


:shock::-o:D:lol::lol::lol:

7m7

[tooty]

Right now now what is happening is that wolves are not just feeding off the old and weak,they are taking everything because pack health and numbers are very strong.If we let nature take it's course and balance itself it might be to late for some critical herds to recover.Reducing moose pop. might work in the long run,but less moose is only giong to make hungry wolves feed more on caribou.It doesn't make sense all around.

[dana]

7mag,
*****!!!

[Gateholio]

The Picture:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cheers.JPG


7m7



Damn I love beer.....:p

[Gateholio]

Actually I have a 4 year bachelor degree in Outdoor Education. .

Would that qualify you to be a school teacher?

[dana]

If I took another half a year of school, yes. At the time, I thought about doing another half a year at the University of Calgary and getting my Bachelor of PE, but I chose to work in the bush instead. Glad I made the decision I did. It is a lifestyle I really enjoy.

[ElkMasterC]

Here is some other very fascinating information about the wolf diet:

"Beavers play an important roll as an alternative food source in the summer months, in some areas 60% of the wolf's diet is beaver." :eek:


My God, that explains why i howl at full moons!
;-)
Altho I prefer foxes in the winter, I've also been known to stalk the odd cougar.

The key is variety.

[horshur]

Right now now what is happening is that wolves are not just feeding off the old and weak,they are taking everything because pack health and numbers are very strong.If we let nature take it's course and balance itself it might be to late for some critical herds to recover.Reducing moose pop. might work in the long run,but less moose is only giong to make hungry wolves feed more on caribou.It doesn't make sense all around.

hmmm? who would have thought.

[dana]

Thus far, I have yet to see them open up the reins when it comes to our moose anyways. Personally, I believe most hunters would like the opportunity to actually hunt moose instead of sitting on the side lines under LEH. At a bare min they could give us some short GOS seasons under point restrictions like up north. 10 point, tripalm and spike/fork.

[Browningmirage]

Actually I have a 4 year bachelor degree in Outdoor Education. This is why I ended up in Clearwater, to get a job in high adventure tourism. Instead I got a job in forestry and 16 years later am still at it. Over those 16 years I have taken numerous forestry courses and workshops, several of which were about managing the North Thompson caribou herd.


ohhhhh you are one of those...its almost like an arts degree 8)

[dana]

Yea, I had really boring courses like advanced rockcraft and rescue, advanced winter outdoor pursuits, kayaking, canoeing, telemark skiing, cross-country skiing and the such. :)

[Browningmirage]

Yea, I had really boring courses like advanced rockcraft and rescue, advanced winter outdoor pursuits, kayaking, canoeing, telemark skiing, cross-country skiing and the such. :)

and the usefullness of those courses...completely unparalleled :lol:

I dont think the course run up here in Prince George has anything like that...but i do know the North Island college has a diploma in "surfing"...

[dana]

Adventure Tourism is a big money business for the operators or it is a lifestyle for the guides. Not much different that the Guide/Outfitter business. I have guided in the past and have thought long and hard about the ability to combine the 2 and make a decent living. Right now, forestry keeps the bills paid and keeps me in the bush, which I really enjoy.

[6616]

Nearly all the guide-outfitters in the Kootenay's now have backcountry recreation tenures. They vary from trail rides, snowmobile tours, quad tours, cross country skiing, wildlife viewing, and several varying other activities. Adventure tourism has made many small family owned guide-outfitting businesses into viable year around operations instead of part time operations like they were when they only hunted, and has also provided a lot of new jobs.

It's also put a lot more human presence and pressure on the backcountry and wildlerness areas as well, competition for space, there's always a cost. Adventure tourism has become a substantial and viable industry.

[PGK]

ortm
lol

I told you Steve, I don't want to work in wildlife. Imagine dealing with this kind of backlash on a daily basis, and having to care about it? No thanks. The problem with wildlife management is that everyone has a different opinion on how to do it. And while you may not agree with them, a good manager shuts up and listens when someone spouts their opinion, because it's all based on differing levels of experience and education.
Personally, I have never expressed to know much about wildlife management at all. Lots of people stuff words in my mouth though ;)
If you were a wildlife biologist, would you walk into a pub and tell somebody that? If you did, you might not make it out alive in some places :D
Interesting to see people finally putting all the pieces together. It's been a long ass battle on this site, but I see the gaps starting to close!

And BTW, your moose seasons will be opening up. Part of the whole reduce moose to reduce wolves to help caribou scenario that confuses you so, lol. It's controversial, but preliminarily, it seems to be working. The base theory here is that when the moose numbers go down, the wolves won't switch to caribou, they will disperse from the area

[Browningmirage]

so what do you want to work with there big guy

[tooty]

Thus far, I have yet to see them open up the reins when it comes to our moose anyways. Personally, I believe most hunters would like the opportunity to actually hunt moose instead of sitting on the side lines under LEH. At a bare min they could give us some short GOS seasons under point restrictions like up north. 10 point, tripalm and spike/fork.

I was told that they are going to open up hunting for cow moose,I think that was in region 7.I'm not sure if more leh's or open season like immature bulls.I haven't got all the details.Right in the middle of our meeting another call came in(hour call)..so I left,had other stuff on the list to do.

[PGK]

so what do you want to work with there big guy

I want to work with you ;)

[Browningmirage]

OMG:shock:

[tooty]

ortm
lol

I told you Steve, I don't want to work in wildlife. Imagine dealing with this kind of backlash on a daily basis, and having to care about it? No thanks. The problem with wildlife management is that everyone has a different opinion on how to do it. And while you may not agree with them, a good manager shuts up and listens when someone spouts their opinion, because it's all based on differing levels of experience and education.
Personally, I have never expressed to know much about wildlife management at all. Lots of people stuff words in my mouth though ;)
If you were a wildlife biologist, would you walk into a pub and tell somebody that? If you did, you might not make it out alive in some places :D
Interesting to see people finally putting all the pieces together. It's been a long ass battle on this site, but I see the gaps starting to close!

And BTW, your moose seasons will be opening up. Part of the whole reduce moose to reduce wolves to help caribou scenario that confuses you so, lol. It's controversial, but preliminarily, it seems to be working. The base theory here is that when the moose numbers go down, the wolves won't switch to caribou, they will disperse from the area
Disperse from the area and then eat what?

[PGK]

Samsquantches? I don't know! :biggrin: I would assume they would go to greener pastures aka higher moose density areas. Or the packs start to starve, fall apart and disperse, probably suffering higher mortality as they go.
It may have already started to work, as I've now heard two stories of collared wolves being shot by hunters over 300km from where they were collared (and over 100km from each other), certainly outside a normal pack 'home range', and they were in a pack when collared

[eastkoot]

Disperse from the area and then eat what?

Mice and Beavers and rotten feral horse meat, although a few may turn to couger!!! Pay attention to the posts !!!

[PGK]

Mice and Beavers and rotten feral horse meat, although a few may turn to couger!!! Pay attention to the posts !!!

You don't subscribe to the science? I've analyzed enough wolf shit myself to know they eat a good bit of beaver!

[SteadyGirl]

You don't subscribe to the science? I've analyzed enough wolf shit myself to know they eat a good bit of beaver!

Part of any healthy diet, no?:tongue:

[SteadyGirl]

Where are pics of dead feral horses running amok all over kamloops area:roll: Lets see those pics of horses using creekbeds as trails!! (aka cows) With all this BS someone should be able to get a frame with at least 20 horses in it!!

[eastkoot]

You may want to read abit on what CAN be a wolves "home range". Wolves in the Cariboo when I lived there travelled in a pattern where it took them 3-4 weeks to return to a particular area of their "hunting route". We have wolves that pass through the East Kootenays and Flathead Valleys that in the winter will be seen in Banff/Jasper corridor..Must be a shortage of mice and beavers!!

http://books.google.ca/books?id=-xQalfqP7BcC&pg=PA487&lpg=PA487&dq=wolf+home+range&source=bl&ots=XOjdDu6574&sig=ZOSLMdGyHBXUxwdvqLILYeKRvd4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result

[MattB]

Samsquantches? I don't know! :biggrin: I would assume they would go to greener pastures aka higher moose density areas. Or the packs start to starve, fall apart and disperse, probably suffering higher mortality as they go.
It may have already started to work, as I've now heard two stories of collared wolves being shot by hunters over 300km from where they were collared (and over 100km from each other), certainly outside a normal pack 'home range', and they were in a pack when collared
Maybe with lower early seral ungulate populations they will target caribou more!? Tough to say. I think reducing both early seral ungulates and wolves may be the best option!

[tooty]

Samsquantches? I don't know! :biggrin: I would assume they would go to greener pastures aka higher moose density areas. Or the packs start to starve, fall apart and disperse, probably suffering higher mortality as they go.
It may have already started to work, as I've now heard two stories of collared wolves being shot by hunters over 300km from where they were collared (and over 100km from each other), certainly outside a normal pack 'home range', and they were in a pack when collared


So what you are saying wolves from everywhere were attracted to the big pile of horse meat smelling for miles around.Then trapped,collared...left to go find food because no more horse meat.Finally found a mouse to eat 300 km away.Or maybe a juicy herd of caribou.

[dana]

Actually it could just be wolves aren't such a tight knit group as once thought. Why stick around and be a sub when you can leave, find a mate and make your own pack?

And Steady, come on now, why do you keep bringing this off topic thread back on topic again? That's just annoying. ;)

[tooty]

[quote=MattB;376941]Maybe with lower early seral ungulate populations they will target caribou more!? Tough to say. I think reducing both early seral ungulates and wolves may be the best option![/quote

Reducing wolves in mountain caribou range should be the primary target first and foremost.

[PGK]

[quote=MattB;376941]Maybe with lower early seral ungulate populations they will target caribou more!? Tough to say. I think reducing both early seral ungulates and wolves may be the best option![/quote

Reducing wolves in mountain caribou range should be the primary target first and foremost.

Do you, as a hunter, want to take the backlash for an active wolf control program? Don't slam these projects yet, wait to see if they work first.

People naturally fear what they do not know

[tooty]

Finally,someone has stated the obvious.The anti hunters will scream bloody murder if there is a active wolf control program in place.Will they scream less if the caribou herds don't rebound fast enough.Or if hunters are now shooting more moose to save the caribou.Maybe we should just let nature take its course and wait and see if pockets of mountain caribou become extinct.

[BCrams]

A point:

Who's to say the wolves do not break from the pack .... or are 'driven' from the pack. It does happen, hence new home range search. (same thing with grizzlies).

There is definatly the unknown and the speculation of what wolves may or may not do. Such as "do they disperse, starve or turn to alternate prey species like elk or caribou?" The results could prove favourable, but also could prove to be disastrous in the short term / long term if indeed wolves decide to prey on the animals available.

The idea is that before logging within and adjacent to caribou habitat, there were no issues with caribou and wolves (as much) as there is now with the increased ungulate (moose, elk and deer) base within and adjacent to caribou habitat in which the wolf numbers have increased. Consequently, you're going to have an increase in the number of wolves preying on caribou.

I have physically seen evidence of this with regards to the impacts of logging and the subsequent increase of ungulates and yes ... wolves ....... Its quite amazing when you spend the time afield as well as analyze 7 years worth of data. Taking what I see and know, and apply the same circumstances to areas where ungulates have increased within and adjacent to caribou habitat ........... its not hard to see what they're trying to achieve.

However, it is quite ambitious and will take considerable effort to maintain low moose, elk, and deer numbers to see the effects it wil have on the wolf populations within these areas.

There is a lot more to some of these projects as they have the 'control', the 'moose reduction' and the 'wolf reduction' areas. I am pretty keen to see the outcome of the whole thing although I think it is not something you can monitor for 2 or 3 years ... but be part of a longer term strategy of which funding and other unknowns may factor in.

[hunter1947]

What I have been told from a top notch trapper that has a huge registered trap line in the EK is that wolfs will multiply by great numbers if there is lots of prey to be found.

He said by logging out areas makes it so much easer for wolves to take out the prey.

He told me that the wolves that are in the area where he has his trap line are Montana wolves ,he said they are coming up from there.

He said to call him back in late Feb and he will let me know how many wolves he has trapped.

What I have been told about wolves is that they do break apart as a pack and why they do this is when numbers of prey are low ,the wolves can't find enough food to feed them all and then this is when a conflict accrues as for dominant factors.

[SteadyGirl]

What I have been told from a top notch trapper that has a huge registered trap line in the EK is that wolfs will multiply by great numbers if there is lots of prey to be found.



Female wolves have the ability not to go in season when prey is limited as well..

[Hermen]

Steady Girl and whoever else was interested in a horse from there; I have a client with a Brittany Triangle Mustang she is scared to ride. Has had some professional training but got spooky. The native ranger from the reserve up there that manages the herd rode it as a publicity stunt at the Mane Event in Chilliwack to promote the Friends of the Nemiah Valley (FONV) mentioned earlier in the thread. It's a nice bay mare. Don't know if she wants any money for her. PM me if interested.

From what I see where there are areas with feral horses they do have a big impact in reducing the undergrowth at least in the drier areas like the west side of the Fraser. They trample everything, makes for great hunting as it is easy to walk and see, if only there were deer... except they are all down on the alfalfa fields, less wild than the horses.

Not sure why people think there are no predators for the feral horses. Wolves, cougars and probably grizzlies too. Lots of grizzlies up by Nemiah. There is an outfitter at Tzuniah Lake west of there but they do not get any grizzly tags. According to his brother, a rancher they see as many grizzly as black bears. Lose a few cows to them. I lost a colt to presumably a cougar north of Lillooet this spring though it could be wolves as they are both in the area. A kid caretaking the ranch saw a cougar the week before, then two dead half eaten colts, and a cougar feeding on a wild foal the week after. Wolves in the area. Fair number of cattle taken north of there by Big Bar Ferry according to the local ranchers. I removed a lump of scar tissue (along with two other parts) on a two year old that was from a wolf attack according to the owner. I do take the wolf problem with a bit of a grain of salt when listening to the ranchers but I'm sure it is substantial in some areas with certain summer range systems.

Feel free to go shoot some wolves if you can, there is already open season for wolves in many areas. This doesn't have to be a big public spectacle. Just shoot a few, make it less friendly for them and move them off to other areas or at least, reduce the numbers somewhat. There is already a generous open season for wolves in the Nemiah Valley (5-4) and many other units: open April 1 - June 15 and Aug 1 - Mar 31 bag limit 3 for both seasons. The hard part is seeing them and shooting them even with dead horses for bait.

In Williams Lake area they were live capturing alpha pairs and neutering them in the theory that the alfa pair would keep the group together and just not produce offspring, whereas shooting alfas would splinter the group into more packs, producing more wolves. No idea of success or cost!

I would personally hate to decimate moose and deer populations to try reduce wolf numbers. White tails perhaps as they are moving in and also have that parasite problem that can affect moose and other ungulates. It would be like punishing one for the sins of the other. From a humane fuzzy wuzzy standpoint wouldn't it be a lot nicer to cleanly remove a few predators than starve them into submission? I think that would sell better than the starvation plan or stressing them into not reproducing. I know for sure a dead wolf will not eat a caribou, a hungry wolf... well, lets ask a biologist? The experiment may work, but perhaps at the expense of the caribou? To be fair I suppose it would be like burning a fire break around the area to be protected. Fighting fire with fire. Sure doesn't help us as hunters though. It may be too late to reduce the easy access that seems to primarily threaten the caribou most. Shoot some wolves I say; if you can...

[tooty]

Exactly,just a nice quick cull in some areas with a heli.A week here a week there.Now that there is some snow it makes it easy from the bird.No big fan fair.Just get it done with instant results.

[willy442]

Exactly,just a nice quick cull in some areas with a heli.A week here a week there.Now that there is some snow it makes it easy from the bird.No big fan fair.Just get it done with instant results.

Still a little to early. Febuary is when they get out on the rivers or lakes and are easy to spot and cull. With a well organized couple of spotter planes and a couple of heli's with gunmen, you would be suprised how fast you can achieve a cull.

[tooty]

I guess I'm jumping the gun a bit.Just like being in the heli to much I guess.

[daycort]

I did some culling last night at km 2 on the s road willy. Funny thing is I got the one right after they took down an elk and they just left the elk there and the sh!t hawks and eagles are cleaning it up and the wolves killed another one I think not long after down the km 5 road behind plant.

[hunter1947]

Female wolves have the ability not to go in season when prey is limited as well..

That is right steadygirl ,thats why the numbers of wolves have declined here on vancover island over the last 6 years.

[tooty]

1) Protect habitat
2) Capture and collar the wolves (hopefully alphas) so you can find the packs when you need to
3) Remove or reduce packs
4) Reduce other ungulate pops to more historic levels based on what you want the habitat to return to (or you will be shooting wolves forever and that just don't work)

You can't just reduce the prey base and hope the wolves will follow, you have to reduce the wolves then the prey base to try and ensure the wolf pops stay low. This is what they are planning if you read the info out there.
http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/sarco/mc/files/interim_predator_prey_strategy_20080512.pdf

Removing wolves will produce more moose than caribou, so you gotta keep that in check as well.


That's why they are increasing cow moose allocations in certain regions as well.Try to keep up sonny.

[BCrams]

That's why they are increasing cow moose allocations in certain regions as well.Try to keep up sonny.

Particularly 7-16 and 7-24.

[tooty]

I heard that region 7 was getting an increase but not exactly where.Some spots in region 3 as well I believe.

[BCrams]

I heard that region 7 was getting an increase but not exactly where.Some spots in region 3 as well I believe.

You're a bit behind. The increases have occured the last couple years along with the late cow / calf season. This year, they even opened up the calf moose season an entire week early.

[tooty]

Sorry< getting old and slow in the bean.

[Ltbullken]

More interesting facts about the wolf diet:

"An odd part of the diet of wolves is fish! It was once observed that a wolf in Canada's Northwest Territories caught five fish in fifteen minutes in the Talston River... Wolves will also eat wild berries and other fruit as a minor part of their diet."

[eastkoot]

"An odd part of the diet of wolves is fish! It was once observed that a wolf in Canada's Northwest Territories caught five fish in fifteen minutes in the Talston River... Wolves will also eat wild berries and other fruit as a minor part of their di

I know you're right on this time 'cause once they acquire a taste for beaver next it'll be chicken and fish and there'll be no stopping them.. And don't get me started on fruit !!! :p:razz::razz:

[chilcotin hillbilly]

I did my part in feeding the wolves. Raised a nice plump 1 1/2 year old hound and fed the wolves with her saturday night. time for some 1080 and wipe them all out.:icon_frow

[eastkoot]

time for some 1080

Tull chemical Co. Oxford Illinois

[willy442]

I did some culling last night at km 2 on the s road willy. Funny thing is I got the one right after they took down an elk and they just left the elk there and the sh!t hawks and eagles are cleaning it up and the wolves killed another one I think not long after down the km 5 road behind plant.

Yes; I have observed them kill for fun also. One time it was an old nanny goat, a yearling and a kid. They were tearing the flank out of the kid at about 250 yards away. Myself, the wrangler and the hunter with me could hear the goats dieing as they were partially ate then left while still kicking. We did shoot 2 out of the pack of seven. The stories that they only prey on the old and weak is absolute garbage. More than once I have seen them kill the perfectly healthy and usually young. Congratulations on at least getting one. Our old saying in the hunting country was " if you seen five, you better bring home six" in other words kill every one you see and more. They are hard to get while hunting but every one helps and makes for one less the Bio's need to study.:smile:

[GoatGuy]

ohhhhh you are one of those...its almost like an arts degree 8)

Arts degrees are great if you're planning on becoming a prof in sociology.

[SteadyGirl]

hmmm ......

[horshur]

Exactly,just a nice quick cull in some areas with a heli.A week here a week there.Now that there is some snow it makes it easy from the bird.No big fan fair.Just get it done with instant results.

so what your saying is that the guy with the Arts degree knew what needed to happen?? Right???
oh as well ,the guy with grade eight who questioned the cute college age survey chick..he knew what needed to happen as well...

Glad common sense prevailed..sure hope you can follow through.

[GoatGuy]

No competition involved. Purely EXPERIENCE and FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE.
Obviously both are area's you are not capable of understanding.
Is it not possible for that lump between your ears to absorb anything but inaccurate numbers and incomplete scientific data?


I think there are plenty of people with good experience and first hand knowledge.

There are several trappers, guide-outfitters and hunters who spend a lot of time in the bush; they're a very valuable asset when it comes to seeing/not seeing game. Many of them have spent several years in the same area hitting the same spots - they really know what's going on when it comes to populations. They're a great asset.

I'm not sure they always know/understand why things are happening but they know what's happening.

I must say there's a huge difference between seeing/talking to someone/reading something and understanding it, knowing what's going on in other places and then making an informed decision. Being able to understand what it saying first, being able to compare it to other things and then make an decision.

Not reading, understanding and having and already having your mind made up is totally different.

Hunters seem to point at over-hunting and predators always. Sometimes one or both are the problem, sometimes they aren't. Being able to read, see and understand what's happening and happened gives you the whole picture.

As far as slamming biologists you can thank them and their 'incomplete numbers' for allowing you to hunt grizzly bears, coming up with the 8 yr old concept for sheep, the selective harvest moose management, and pretty much everything else we have today. They're the folks who were able to come up with population dynamics, minimum thresholds for sex ratios and on and on and on. While it isn't perfect it's all we have and it's because of people who understand and are able to research/analyze these animals that we have hunting seasons and animals left to hunt. And yes to figure that stuff out in detail you need to have some upper level training when it comes to biology and what you call math - it's not possible to figure that stuff out without it.





If you had even the slightest amount of credibility, maybe I would go a little easier on you but the fact is you DON'T!:roll:

Credibility on the internet? Too funny - try the real world. Between guide-outfitters/F&W staff/resident hunters I had heard about you in the real world several times. Like when you thought I was one of the Kylos? I did work in one of the neighbouring outfits :smile:. The posts about residents shooting all the nannies/sows, condemning guys for shooting 7 yr old rams (when you've had clients shoot them), LEH because of messy camps and the stuff about Dr.Moose only helped reinforce that. It was even better when you deleted your posts. Try the real world if you're looking for credibility.

[GoatGuy]

Yes; I have observed them kill for fun also. One time it was an old nanny goat, a yearling and a kid. They were tearing the flank out of the kid at about 250 yards away. Myself, the wrangler and the hunter with me could hear the goats dieing as they were partially ate then left while still kicking. We did shoot 2 out of the pack of seven. The stories that they only prey on the old and weak is absolute garbage. More than once I have seen them kill the perfectly healthy and usually young. Congratulations on at least getting one. Our old saying in the hunting country was " if you seen five, you better bring home six" in other words kill every one you see and more. They are hard to get while hunting but every one helps and makes for one less the Bio's need to study.:smile:

So now we're shooting wolves because they're evil?

[GoatGuy]

so what your saying is that the guy with the Arts degree knew what needed to happen?? Right???
oh as well ,the guy with grade eight who questioned the cute college age survey chick..he knew what needed to happen as well...

Glad common sense prevailed..sure hope you can follow through.


Anybody know how much it costs per wolf?

Just average price between collaring and shooting.

Remember, it's an ongoing thing so you're going to have to spend that money annually.

How much is that going to be?


Where is that money going to come from?


Ball park is fine.

[daycort]

Anybody know how much it costs per wolf?

Just average price between collaring and shooting.

Remember, it's an ongoing thing so you're going to have to spend that money annually.

How much is that going to be?


Where is that money going to come from?


Ball park is fine.


While I would provide myself and gun and bullets:biggrin:.

I wonder what fuel would cost for a few planes, not to mention a helicopter.

I am guessing around the $2500/hr mark being conservitive:cry:.

[GoatGuy]

While I would provide myself and gun and bullets:biggrin:.

I wonder what fuel would cost for a few planes, not to mention a helicopter.

I am guessing around the $2500/hr mark being conservitive:cry:.

Hehehe, nice offer.

I've got buddies that flew and shot in the 80s.
There are actually better ways to do it now without spotter planes.

Gotta pay for netgunner/chopper/collars to get started.

Then chopper/shooters.

Gotta do it every year a couple times/year.

[daycort]

Hehehe, nice offer

I was just figuring fuel and heli costs, and based man hours on free time. If that sort of thing happens anymore.


There are actually better ways to do it now without spotter planes.

Maybe like following already collared wolves???

[GoatGuy]

I was just figuring fuel and heli costs, and based man hours on free time. If that sort of thing happens anymore.



Maybe like following already collared wolves???


:biggrin:.....:biggrin:.....:biggrin:

[daycort]

There are actually better ways to do it now without spotter planes

or how about getting some of these crazy locals flying around in there parachutes, and mount a 50 cal on it. that there would be fun, like a video game.

[GoatGuy]

or how about getting some of these crazy locals flying around in there parachutes, and mount a 50 cal on it. that there would be fun, like a video game.

Crazy locals? I thought that was normal?

Da harrre on da barrrree warrrrrrrr longggggggg.

[daycort]

Crazy locals? I thought that was normal?

It all depends, crazy down south I think is normal redneck here.;)




Back on thread.

Doesn't collaring wolves come first and learn there habits and there territory and then start the trapping/flying to reduce numbers of said pack???

[GoatGuy]

It all depends, crazy down south I think is normal redneck here.;)




Back on thread.

Doesn't collaring wolves come first and learn there habits and there territory and then start the trapping/flying to reduce numbers of said pack???

Very close.

Habits and territory no so important.

Course you need targets as well as much as some people would like to see wolves extirpated I'm not sure sure that's the way to go. Controlling their numbers might be.

[hunter1947]

BTS called last night and told me he saw loads of wolf tracks where I hunted BTD this year ,I am going to order about 12 camlock snares this week and some leg hold traps and go find there path runway and set them up.

Now that we have snow on the ground it will be easy to see where there main runway is ,I have my trapping license so why not give it a try ,I have nothing to loose by trying.

The first thing I got to do is find out if there are any trappers that have the rights to this land section and the go from there http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

I will be calling Phil Bradshaw from cranbrook today and getting all the information I need to know about how to trap these wolves ,he is the instructor for trapping in cranbrook and is the person that has a huge registered trap line in where I hunt for elk every year.

I will let you all know how I make out as time passes on.

[horshur]

Anybody know how much it costs per wolf?

Just average price between collaring and shooting.

Remember, it's an ongoing thing so you're going to have to spend that money annually.

How much is that going to be?


Where is that money going to come from?


Ball park is fine.

how much would it cost to use 1080?

dealin with wolves could be alot cheaper than current protocol seems to need.

and in investigating the cost... I am not privvy to that info and cannot find it.

I know that in the states it was suggested that the money spent amounted to about 10 grand per wolf for reintroduction...so early this month when officials took out a pack of 13...with heli and guns.. the money was burning up pretty quik..130,000 worth of dead wolves.

only because of western civilizations prosperity with goverments boltstered by industry and tax payers would it be possible to think it "Okay" to reintroduce wolves at a cost of more than 10 grand per more than 15 years into the program...and net losses of ranchers...hunter opportunity...along with it...'INSANE" if you ask me.

I think individuals have been paying attention to what went down in the states and are hoping for a similiar "Product" to market. That public sentiment would be strong enough to pay the bills without the right hand seeing what the left was up too...southern caribou are there product..

hopefully current global economic crises will hobble the insanity and bring some rationality...

[SteadyGirl]

1080? How barbaric. Nothing puts a girl back to bed faster than watching the learning curve of mankind:roll:

Maybe the cariboo can intermingle with the sprawling metropolitan areas, once the wolves are long gone its nothing but uphill for the cariboo I'm sure:!:

WHY ARE THE CARIBOO NUMBERS SO LOW?

somebody explain that to me

IN THE FIRST PLACE WHY ARE THE CARIBOO NUMBERS SO LOW????

[SteadyGirl]

what you guys have is 25+ pages of BS BANDAID SOLUTIONS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

1080? How barbaric. Nothing puts a girl back to bed faster than watching the learning curve of mankind:roll:

Maybe the cariboo can intermingle with the sprawling metropolitan areas, once the wolves are long gone its nothing but uphill for the cariboo I'm sure:!:

WHY ARE THE CARIBOO NUMBERS SO LOW?

somebody explain that to me

IN THE FIRST PLACE WHY ARE THE CARIBOO NUMBERS SO LOW????

Logging has been good for moose...not so good for the caribou.

Moose numbers, where the caribou are low, are very high
= high predator numbers. Grizz number are very high in these areas as well.

As far as most people are concerned...1080 and air-gunning are the only two effective ways to control wolves.

No one said predator control was for the faint-hearted.

Here and I thought you were able to kill and gut an animal:?.

SSS

[SteadyGirl]

Here and I thought you were able to kill and gut an animal:?.

SSS

You thought right:-P Fair chase up to my elbows:tongue:

Maybe the government could offer a reward or incentive program to get people off thier cans hunting wolves. Most of those indians aren't working full-time anyway.

After I get my snowshoes I will try and still hunt the gold creek wolf pack in the timbers. At least I'll learn more about them. I'll prolly just get lost and freeze :rolleyes: I've never shot a wolf and I have only seen one in the wild, for an instant.

[MattB]

1080? How barbaric. Nothing puts a girl back to bed faster than watching the learning curve of mankind:roll:

Maybe the cariboo can intermingle with the sprawling metropolitan areas, once the wolves are long gone its nothing but uphill for the cariboo I'm sure:!:

WHY ARE THE CARIBOO NUMBERS SO LOW?

somebody explain that to me

IN THE FIRST PLACE WHY ARE THE CARIBOO NUMBERS SO LOW????
As SSS said, logging has created exceptional habitat for moose. This lead to the increase in population of moose within caribou habitat. Logging has created access for humans into these areas. Increased access leads to increased backcountry recreation within critical caribou habitat, including snowmobiling in winter. The packed trails a sled creates create perfect pathways for wolves to reach the wintering caribou. Everything seems tied to logging activities, all of which have now stopped in critical caribou habitats (as far as i know). And snowmobiling has been limited or stopped within these habitats as well.

[KevinB]

how much would it cost to use 1080?

dealin with wolves could be alot cheaper than current protocol seems to need.


Is 1080 used in B.C. now? I can't imagine the "public" would condone the widespread use of 1080 unless wolves start wandering around in West Van eating little kids. Probably not even then. There are probably more people in B.C. willing to lay down in front of the 1080 delivery truck than there are hunters. "Spewing deadly poison all over the forests" (not my words, but that is how it would be portrayed by the antis) just to increase ungulate poulations for the benefit of hunters...can you imagine what kind of ammo that would give anti-hunters if they got their claws into that??? I don't really have an opinion on whether poisoning wolves with 1080 is a good idea or a bad idea, but it for sure would be a bad idea for hunter image, at least without a lot of $$ and time being spent on education, litigation, etc.

Targeting specific wolves or packs with shooting or trapping gets around a lot of that. Not many people care enough to go lay down in between the wolves and the shooter in the middle of winter somewhere 50 miles east of Quesnel.

[GoatGuy]

how much would it cost to use 1080?

dealin with wolves could be alot cheaper than current protocol seems to need.

and in investigating the cost... I am not privvy to that info and cannot find it.

I know that in the states it was suggested that the money spent amounted to about 10 grand per wolf for reintroduction...so early this month when officials took out a pack of 13...with heli and guns.. the money was burning up pretty quik..130,000 worth of dead wolves.

only because of western civilizations prosperity with goverments boltstered by industry and tax payers would it be possible to think it "Okay" to reintroduce wolves at a cost of more than 10 grand per more than 15 years into the program...and net losses of ranchers...hunter opportunity...along with it...'INSANE" if you ask me.

I think individuals have been paying attention to what went down in the states and are hoping for a similiar "Product" to market. That public sentiment would be strong enough to pay the bills without the right hand seeing what the left was up too...southern caribou are there product..

hopefully current global economic crises will hobble the insanity and bring some rationality...

1080's indiscriminate, meaning it doesn't care what it kills. Anything that eats treated bait dies. There are ways to mitigate that to a degree, but I don't know how sucessful that really is. If you need wolf control you control wolves, not grizzly bears, furbearers, birds of prey etc.,

Always a cost/benefit.

[bayou]

1080's indiscriminate, meaning it doesn't care what it kills. Anything that eats treated bait dies. There are ways to mitigate that to a degree, but I don't know how sucessful that really is. If you need wolf control you control wolves, not grizzly bears, furbearers, birds of prey etc.,

Always a cost/benefit.


Thanks for posting that I was going to, in my opinion poisons and snares are both ridiculous they both kill way to many non-target animals. Im still sure that doesnt matter to some on here.

[Gateholio]

I'm going to ask a friend to post on the poisoning thing...He has a bit of knowledge of it...:razz:

[Gateholio]

As SSS said, logging has created exceptional habitat for moose. This lead to the increase in population of moose within caribou habitat. Logging has created access for humans into these areas. Increased access leads to increased backcountry recreation within critical caribou habitat, including snowmobiling in winter. The packed trails a sled creates create perfect pathways for wolves to reach the wintering caribou. Everything seems tied to logging activities, all of which have now stopped in critical caribou habitats (as far as i know). And snowmobiling has been limited or stopped within these habitats as well.

Ban all logging in BC.

:wink: