Change in LEH RULES ??

[guest]

I was wondering how many are in favor of a change in LEH rules as stated below.

For Animals like Bison, Roosevelt Elk, the 4 different Sheep in the province, Mnt. Goat, Grizzly Bear, Caribou. : a once in a life time draw system where a person can only draw an LEH once until all others that apply have had the draw. I know this is very complicated and some will not agree with it but I am just seeking everyones opinion. For example I know an individual that has drawn Bison 3 times, Roosevelts 2, California Bighorn 3. While I have never been drawn for any. High or low odds, if you have had it before like I did on goat last year and again this year, I personally think others should have a chance before I did.
I really believe that it is a privilege to have been drawn and others should get a chance before I do a second, third or fourth time.
I also think that if you have been drawn before, that you are then forced to hunt general open seasons while others have a chance at the LEH.

Just wondering ...... this should be interesting .....

CT

[elkdom]

How about anyone being alotted an LEH Authorization and not purchasing the "required tag and making effort to complete the hunt" is then disquaified from Applying for that species of LEH in any subsequent 20 years! many persons apply, get LEH and have no real intention or plan for hunt once LEH has been awarded ! I have no Problem with the luck of the draw, what bugs me is people who draw LEH and dont bother making effort for the hunt!

[Steeleco]

The one thing I would like to see changed with LEH is "when" the animals can be taken. In that I mean, if the idea of the program is a controlled taking of animals in order to balance or otherwise control the population. What does it matter when the animal is taken.

For instance, why do they allow LEH does after they have likely been bred? Why not allow a doe in Sept or for the whole hunting season?
Bison are only allowed when it seems near impossible to get access to the areas, again, it they're only allowing a very small amount to be taken, who cares when?

[guest]

Again, Elkdom, that would fit into you have been drawn once, your out till all others that apply get drawn.

Steelco, I agree with what your are saying too.

CT

[Steeleco]

While his idea has merit, and would stop the tree hugger's from doing their thing, it would also penalize a guy that had all the intention but life messed things up.

My Mother passed away this year the day before I was due to leave for my week. Had I had an LEH it would have been wasted.

[elkdom]

While his idea has merit, and would stop the tree hugger's from doing their thing, it would also penalize a guy that had all the intention but life messed things up.

My Mother passed away this year the day before I was due to leave for my week. Had I had an LEH it would have been wasted.

This type of unforseen tradgedy and others of less importance, job change, marital issues, ect are all understandable reasons for cancelled plans , but many do draw LEH with absolutly no real plan to complete the hunt!

[Mr. Dean]

This type of unforseen tradgedy and others of less importance, job change, marital issues, ect are all understandable reasons for cancelled plans , but many do draw LEH with absolutly no real plan to complete the hunt!

And extremely difficult to seperpate from one ticket holder that 'wasted' his/hers.

[smoke-eater]

I think the system is just fine, Have a look at Alberta and ask them how they like only getting a moose or elk tag every 6 or 7 years. I know it suchs that some guys get it but we have the ability to get any tag we want if were willing to travel a bit. Its not fair that some guy wins 30Million on the 649 but we still all play.

[Steeleco]

but many do draw LEH with absolutly no real plan to complete the hunt!

Agreed, but how do we tell them apart? I have a friend that drew Grizz and never did anything toward getting one. I chewed him a new one, but he'd never thought about this side prior, as "it's only $6" was his reason for trying in the first place.

[hunter1947]

I'm not in favor of having this change implemented ,the way I see this is if your lucky enough to get a draw 2 or 3 or even 4 times so be it.

Any one out there has just as much of a chance to get a draw as others ,its just shit house luck if you are a repeater more then once and for these people that do get a LEH draw for one species more then once I suggest you go buy some lotto tickets :wink:.

[elkdom]

And extremely difficult to seperpate from one ticket holder that 'wasted' his/hers.

Very true indeed, any more rules and "what if's and if nots" would be a administrative nightmare, stll there must be a simpler way to weed out all
those that just kick in $6 and "see what happens clowns",,,,,

[bighornbob]

Curly

What happens when new people start hunting, does the person who got a LEH 10 years ago have to wait longer. For example I got drawn for a sheep LEH 10 years ago and have not been allowed to apply (under your system) since there are other guys who have not gotten drawn. What about all the new hunters that have just started hunting, do they have to get drawn before I can again? What about old hunters who have hunted along time but never put in before. Do they get placed ahead of me becuase I was lucky enough to get one 10 years ago.

To me your system does not make much sence, it would only drop hunter numbers beyond what has already been lost. To me the system works good, everybody has the same chance.

Things I would like to see, is pay for your tag with your LEH application. That would get rid of alot of the people from applying on a whim when you have to send in 60 bucks for a sheep tag. They do it now for Bison, do it for all the species.

One idea that has peaked my interest was proposed here by somebody where your LEH are ranked by order by your preference. When the draw is done everybody gets their first pic before anyone gets a second pic if there are tags left. This would at least get more guys getting LEH's as you would not get guys getting 3 and 4 LEH's and others getting none.

For example my first choice would be sheep, 2nd bison, 3rd Grizz. My dads would be moose, Mule doe and whitetail doe. If I got drawn for sheep, I would not be eligable to get drawn for another LEH unles everyone has already received a tag. Basically you can only get one LEH a year unless there are left over tags.

Do a search and you will find the original post.

BHb

[smoke-eater]

Things I would like to see, is pay for your tag with your LEH application. That would get rid of alot of the people from applying on a whim when you have to send in 60 bucks for a sheep tag.

BHb


great idea...

[tomahawk]

Don't agree with the concept of trying to stop people from having to use a LEH tag that "can't get to a hunt" in that year as its impossible to monitor.

However a couple things that I think would help are:
1) Only one LEH draw per person per year. (eg if you put in for 5 draws and get drawn for one the rest are not eligible) You would assign a priority to your draws of 1st choice to 5th choice for the 5 draws. Say your 1 st choice is moose and you get drawn then the other 4 are toast.

2) More use of the graduating odds system like AB. All LEH animals to be on graduating odds over a period of at least 5 yrs. So if you get a draw this year, your odds are slim to be drawn again for at least 5 yrs. My bud in AB knows that it will be at least 5 yrs till his next draw but also knows that his buds will have a chance to get one as well.

BTW me and my partner have got 3 bison, 3 rosies and 2 moose the last 10 yrs.

[hunter1947]

Curly

What happens when new people start hunting, does the person who got a LEH 10 years ago have to wait longer. For example I got drawn for a sheep LEH 10 years ago and have not been allowed to apply (under your system) since there are other guys who have not gotten drawn. What about all the new hunters that have just started hunting, do they have to get drawn before I can again? What about old hunters who have hunted along time but never put in before. Do they get placed ahead of me becuase I was lucky enough to get one 10 years ago.

To me your system does not make much sence, it would only drop hunter numbers beyond what has already been lost. To me the system works good, everybody has the same chance.

Things I would like to see, is pay for your tag with your LEH application. That would get rid of alot of the people from applying on a whim when you have to send in 60 bucks for a sheep tag. They do it now for Bison, do it for all the species.

One idea that has peaked my interest was proposed here by somebody where your LEH are ranked by order by your preference. When the draw is done everybody gets their first pic before anyone gets a second pic if there are tags left. This would at least get more guys getting LEH's as you would not get guys getting 3 and 4 LEH's and others getting none.

For example my first choice would be sheep, 2nd bison, 3rd Grizz. My dads would be moose, Mule doe and whitetail doe. If I got drawn for sheep, I would not be eligable to get drawn for another LEH unles everyone has already received a tag. Basically you can only get one LEH a year unless there are left over tags.

Do a search and you will find the original post.

BHb
I'm with you on your statement BHB except that the price on an LEH tag for all species.

There are some people that are on low salary budget as for youths that would not be able to buy 3 or 4 LEH tags and to me this would not be fair :roll:.

[guest]

Big Horn Bob I think ideas like what you stated make sense.

I'm only asking a round about question, obviously allot of details would need to be worked out about new hunters etc.

As I said before, I was lucky last year and this year on a Mnt. Goat LEH, where the odds are like 8 to 1, I am not complaining nor would I be pissed if other hunters ALL got the LEH before me again.
I just feel very grateful to have the chance to hunt these Specific species at all! That said, you or I may never get a chance to hunt any of the species mentioned, or you may be drawn several times for Roosevelts, I do think the system needs change.

I think your Idea BHB is a good one and may be just a piece of the over all picture that the province should look at.

Any one else have any ideas for a better system ??

Tomohawk, another good idea !

Does every one agree the present system could use a re-build?


CT

[boxhitch]

One idea that has peaked my interest was proposed here by somebody where your LEH are ranked by order by your preference. When the draw is done everybody gets their first pic before anyone gets a second pic if there are tags left. This would at least get more guys getting LEH's as you would not get guys getting 3 and 4 LEH's and others getting none.

For example my first choice would be sheep, 2nd bison, 3rd Grizz. My dads would be moose, Mule doe and whitetail doe. If I got drawn for sheep, I would not be eligable to get drawn for another LEH unles everyone has already received a tag. Basically you can only get one LEH a year unless there are left over tags.

Do a search and you will find the original post.

BHb

With this system , a hunter might as well not even consider applying for the subsequent choices, send one application only.
Most hunters apply for the meat draw, and then the dream draw gets thrown in. This new system would force a hunter to choose between a doe whitetail opportunity or a roosi elk.
Current system allows chances at any draw entered, that is a good thing.

We are fighting for increased opportunities on several fronts, so why change something to reduce those ?

[KevinB]

High or low odds, if you have had it before like I did on goat last year and again this year, I personally think others should have a chance before I did.
I really believe that it is a privilege to have been drawn and others should get a chance before I do a second, third or fourth time.

I also think that if you have been drawn before, that you are then forced to hunt general open seasons while others have a chance at the LEH.

So I guess then when you get drawn for an LEH that is 5:1, then you don't enter that draw for another 5 years to ensure that others get a chance before you do? :wink: Just kidding.

I think it's good to get some discussion going about the LEH system. But I think that although we all seem to have stories about someone we know or someone we have heard about that has successfully drawn for several high odds hunts, the truth of the matter is that these sorts of instances are rare and most people entering the LEH draws over many years will draw more or less about as many tags as you would expect by the odds. Removing a few previously successful people from what are already very high odds hunts with a lot of applicants, won't do much to improve anyone else's odds.

The advantage of the current system is that it is simple and easy to understand. There probably is a better way to do things but it's hard to thind of anything more "fair" across the board, than a lottery. Of course, a GOS, where feasible, would be even simpler...

And as far as Goats, I don't know about the once and a lifetime draw...there are some LEH hunts for goat that are undersubscribed, and many others that are extremely good odds. I don't know about the others, don't have the LEH synopsis handy to look. I just remember the goats as there was a thread about it a while back.

[GoatGuy]

Curly

What happens when new people start hunting, does the person who got a LEH 10 years ago have to wait longer. For example I got drawn for a sheep LEH 10 years ago and have not been allowed to apply (under your system) since there are other guys who have not gotten drawn. What about all the new hunters that have just started hunting, do they have to get drawn before I can again? What about old hunters who have hunted along time but never put in before. Do they get placed ahead of me becuase I was lucky enough to get one 10 years ago.

To me your system does not make much sence, it would only drop hunter numbers beyond what has already been lost. To me the system works good, everybody has the same chance.

Things I would like to see, is pay for your tag with your LEH application. That would get rid of alot of the people from applying on a whim when you have to send in 60 bucks for a sheep tag. They do it now for Bison, do it for all the species.

One idea that has peaked my interest was proposed here by somebody where your LEH are ranked by order by your preference. When the draw is done everybody gets their first pic before anyone gets a second pic if there are tags left. This would at least get more guys getting LEH's as you would not get guys getting 3 and 4 LEH's and others getting none.

For example my first choice would be sheep, 2nd bison, 3rd Grizz. My dads would be moose, Mule doe and whitetail doe. If I got drawn for sheep, I would not be eligable to get drawn for another LEH unles everyone has already received a tag. Basically you can only get one LEH a year unless there are left over tags.

Do a search and you will find the original post.

BHb

BHB,

Start on the other end of it.

What is the problem?

What are you trying to accomplish?

What are the potential solutions? (don't forget about the allocation policy and that LEH is about harvesting an allocated number of animals)


Keep in mind we're trying to bring more people into hunting.:wink:

[elkdom]

A limit of one LEH authorization per year would be a good start, enter up to three species per year for leh, if one is chosen, then thats it for that year,
personally the last 4 years I have not sent in hunt cards for LEH as I have been drawn for many over past years and to repeat some hunts is just plain Greedy, others deserve a chance, the world is getting smaller, choices and opportunities less,,,

[guest]

Kevin the 5:1 thing you bring up is exactly what I mean, but details on new applicants, etc etc etc. would need to be worked out.
I think some guys have some great ideas on here and just wondered how many think the LEH is flawed and could be better?
CT

[KevinB]

We are fighting for increased opportunities on several fronts, so why change something to reduce those ?

Well said Boxhitch.

I think this thought has to stay forefront in any discussions about making changes to the LEH system. Reducing resident hunter opportunities for anything other than conservation reasons is a slippery slope. I'd rather see some other resident hunter get drawn for a roosevelt elk 5 times in his life, and never get drawn myself, than see overall opportunities for resident hunters reduced in the name of increasing the percieved "fairness" of the LEH system. I'm just happy some resident gets to hunt them.

My luck will show up somewhere else in my life...

But that said if there is a way to improve the system while maintaining opportunity for residents, then I'd be all for it...Some of the ideas about an "order of preference" or something like that are interesting.

[moosehunter12]

I think it should be left the way it is . Luck of the draw. If they want to change the LEH they should change the way the 649 and super 7 are done. Once you win once you are out till evryone else wins.

[GoatGuy]

With LEH you have to remember it's about harvested animals. Doesn't matter how many people don't go, don't buy the tag, don't harvest - it's about the number that do harvest. A once in a lifetime draw/mandatory purchase of tags does not change any of this.

Not harvesting is actually a good thing in a way. It means that we can get MORE people out hunting for the same number of dead critters.

This has to be within reason of course BUT would it not be better, for example, having an LEH for 3/4 curl rams that is 30:1 instead of an any ram LEH @ 100:1? Call me crazy but I'd rather go hunting than sit at home dreaming about it. :eek:


A once in a lifetime draw WILL NOT change your chances of being drawn - it will only ensure that person is not drawn again. If the intent is to make sure nobody gets more than one shot then fine but I think what people want is to be able to go hunting more often. This is not the solution.

[KevinB]

Kevin the 5:1 thing you bring up is exactly what I mean, but details on new applicants, etc etc etc. would need to be worked out.
I think some guys have some great ideas on here and just wondered how many think the LEH is flawed and could be better?
CT

Yeah I always think about this stuff too. Flawed, no I don't think so, but is there room for improvement or changes, sure. The new shared hunts I think are by and large a good thing for increasing opportunity and for allowing hunting "groups" to remain hunting together. I think breaking up traditional hunting groups is pretty detrimental to both retention and recruiting new hunters and anything we can do do keep these types of groups together is a good thing. But I think whatever was done would have to be balanced with the need to be simple and easily understandable to hunters, and maintaining maximum opportunities for residents.

[bighornbob]

BHB,

Start on the other end of it.

What is the problem?

What are you trying to accomplish?

What are the potential solutions? (don't forget about the allocation policy and that LEH is about harvesting an allocated number of animals)


Keep in mind we're trying to bring more people into hunting.:wink:

I dont actually have a problem with the LEh system just mentioning what I thought was good idea that someone else mentioned.

If it was up to me, I would:

Get rid of Doe LEHs, open them up for a regular season (short or long it would be up to the bios). Let under 19 and over 65 years of age shoot whatever they like for deer.

Get rid of most of the goat LEH's open them up for a regular season.

Get rid most moose LEH's and the 6 point rule for elk but put in a provincial bag limit of one. (only allowed to shoot a moose or an elk not both.)

Sheep, Bison, Grizz and Rosie elk LEHs you have to send in the tag money before any LEH is given out. (Like bison is right now).

Those are just a few of the things I would change.

BHB

[Gunner]

I think the system is just fine, Have a look at Alberta and ask them how they like only getting a moose or elk tag every 6 or 7 years. I know it suchs that some guys get it but we have the ability to get any tag we want if were willing to travel a bit. Its not fair that some guy wins 30Million on the 649 but we still all play.I'd be happy with a moose or elk tag every 6 or 7 years,because in BC I've drawn twice for moose and never for elk since the whole LEH crap started. Gunner

[6616]

Bison authorizations can be returned if the hunter decides he cannot use it, and then it is awarded to another hunter. Why cannot this concept be expanded to more species? I can see it would be an administrative nightmare with doe deer tags for example where there's thousands of them, but there's other hunts like bison where the number of applications would make this reasonable.

[MattB]

Change it to a preference point system where you get 1 pref. point when you arent drawn. Over time your points add up as you arent drawn. People with more points are given a better chance of drawing the tag. That way the more points you acquire (i.e. the more times you put in for a draw and arent successful) the better your chances of drawing the tag.

[Smokepole]

I'm not a fan of LEH. One draw for moose in almost 30 years, odds come back at around 5 to 1 most years. :roll: Lucky for me we still have a short GOS here, if we didn't I might have hung up my guns long ago.

We keep talking about bringing more people into hunting, trying to build up our numbers so we have a louder voice when dealing with the gov't. Along with bringing more into it we also need to keep the people we have. Retention is just about as important as recruitment. The current LEH system killed off hunter numbers, people who are repeatedly unsuccessful will eventually quit.

When LEH came in my dad and uncles became non hunters, they weren't successful for a few years and just quit.

[Ron.C]

I don't bank on LEH when I'm making my plans. If I get one like the coveted Island ELK LEH, awesome, if I don't, oh well. I know alot of guys disagree with me but I think its' fine the way it is. I don't see a problem with an open lottery. If some guys just seem to win more than others, so what, I wish I were that lucky. The only thing I would like to see is a system of being able to turn back in LEH authoriztions if after you have won the draw and before the season starts, you find you are unable to make the hunt.

[Seeadler]

I can see the LEH system needing some tweaks, but things like once in a lifetime tags have no appeal to me.

Things like a 1/year elk + moose bag limit, having to put a refundable deposit down for high end tags, or even a ranking of prefered draws should be tried long before a once in a lifetime tag comes about.

The idea of what I will refer too as a "Preferred Tag" has been floated on here before and is not my idea (but I like it). Basically draw the INDIVIDUAL and the top available tag on their list of preference is awarded to them, and so on.

[GoatGuy]

Sheep, Bison, Grizz and Rosie elk LEHs you have to send in the tag money before any LEH is given out. (Like bison is right now).

BHB

I see, so you're saying once you've been drawn you have to pay for the tag before you actually get it in the mail?

What will this accomplish?

[MattW]

I wouldn't change the system. I can live with facing the odds on these draws and I think it's worth noting that several of the species listed have draws that are under-applied for each year. If a fella is willing to go into these usually hard to reach areas why would we limit him to once in a lifetime or once every 10 years. I'd also point out that as you make the system more complex it will cost more to administrate and possibly bring up the price of an application. I will admit that it bugs me also to see guys win a draw and never bother to make the hunt. Maybe if the applications were a few bucks more it would cut down on that a bit but no one wants higher prices, so maybe they should have to report to their local club at the end of the season and if they didn't hunt their LEH they have to face a paddling from the other members.

[o2fish2day]

I think if they tried to make it too "fair" people wouldn't buy LEH after they had gotten it once or twice knowing there is little chance of getting it again. This would undermine the conservation efforts ($ generated from LEH tags solce

Wildlife branch is probably the most underfunded government area there is. I like the fact the odds are almost the same year to year.

[bighornbob]

I see, so you're saying once you've been drawn you have to pay for the tag before you actually get it in the mail?

What will this accomplish?

It will hopefully weed out a lot of the guys that apply for the fun of it or on a whim. You know the guys I am talking about guys applying for Grizzly draws that have no idea about the area or access etc. Or the guys that apply for a grizz in case they get their moose draw.

If you were compelled to send in $75 with your 6 dollar application, I bet you more guys would at least research the area out or think twice about applying. This would free up tags to those that really want to go regardless of other tags or know about the access issues.

Same thing with sheep. I know of 2 Fraser river tags (odds of 50:1) that the hunters never even bought tags or went. One guy phoned me for more information and I told him I would be hunting the area on sept. 10 looking for sheep. He soon came discouraged when I told him there was a regular season in there for full curls 10 days before his tag opened up. When I ran into him later in the fall he said he never even went becuase all the big sheep would be killed before his tag opened up.:rolleyes: Another guy did not bother to go as it was too far from PG.

Its these types that might not apply if you have to send in the tag money with the LEH.

BHB

[Geo.338]

I think that the system is almost as good as it can be ,with the exception of enhanced odds .I want to see it as a true lottery with no handicap for previous success .If you are lucky enough to be drawn ten times for Roosevelt or Bison or WHY then so be it .

About the only thing I would like to see is the ability to transfer your draw back to the crown if you are unable to go on the hunt .Or if your hunting party draws 5 bulls and everyone only wants half of one or something .At this point they could re issue the authorization to another hunter.I see this as a logistical nightmare though.

[bridger]

one of the things that has bugged me over the years is that some guys that draw these great tags don't even go. some have legitimate reasons (family emergencies etc) others just put in for a lark and when drawn do not go. i now one guy in fsjohn that has drawn to Tansenhii (?) tags for dall sheep and never bothered to go either time but applies each year. these guys need to be taken out of the gene pool somehow and your suggestion would work. however it impacts the guy with a legitmatreason for not not going. another way to handle this issue would be for the lucky guy with a tag that can't go to turn in his tag and draw that tag again. that way it wouldn't be wasted. I hear that a lot of changes to the leh system are in the works and will be released in coming months. discussions like this are good for the leh managers to receive.

[Gateholio]

Wow....We usually dont' have an "overhaul the LEH system"thread until closer to spring.:tongue:

[moosinaround]

If you don't like the current system, then don't buy a ticket! Hunt the GOS somewhere in the province!! I personally dont like the 649 or super 7, I am not writing in to them complaining cause I haven't won in 37 years!! It is a lottery! There is no "conspiracy" against certain hunters who haven't been drawn in 50 years!! Luck of the draw! Thats it! Moosin

[Ambush]

I would make one change.

If you get drawn, then you are billed for the tag. If you don't pay for the tag, your hunter number is "red-flagged" in the LEH computer and spit out until you do.

If you think you want a grizzly tag, then you must be able to afford it. You don't go into a store and order something you can't pay for do you?

Maybe it would make people think a little harder about their decision to apply for too many LEH's or for tags there is little chance they will use.

There's no money in hunting for meat. So saying you can't afford to pay for an LEH you drew is bunk. If you can afford to hunt you can afford the LEH's you applied for.

The MOE can't make sure you hunt with your LEH, but they can make sure you paid for the privilege of drawing that tag.

You will soon be able to buy all your licences on-line, so in this computer age it should be easily accomplished.

[guest]

I like the idea of a Preferred Tag some one brought up, only serious ones apply.
Also the idea of sending back when you can't make it is good too.

Good debate though.

CT

[hunter1947]

It will hopefully weed out a lot of the guys that apply for the fun of it or on a whim. You know the guys I am talking about guys applying for Grizzly draws that have no idea about the area or access etc. Or the guys that apply for a grizz in case they get their moose draw.

If you were compelled to send in $75 with your 6 dollar application, I bet you more guys would at least research the area out or think twice about applying. This would free up tags to those that really want to go regardless of other tags or know about the access issues.

Same thing with sheep. I know of 2 Fraser river tags (odds of 50:1) that the hunters never even bought tags or went. One guy phoned me for more information and I told him I would be hunting the area on sept. 10 looking for sheep. He soon came discouraged when I told him there was a regular season in there for full curls 10 days before his tag opened up. When I ran into him later in the fall he said he never even went becuase all the big sheep would be killed before his tag opened up.:rolleyes: Another guy did not bother to go as it was too far from PG.

Its these types that might not apply if you have to send in the tag money with the LEH.

BHB
This makes a lot of sense ,you pay if you get drawn and then if you don't want to go you loose your money and the tag goes back into the LEH system for some one else to get drawn ,is this what you mean BHB ???.

[GoatGuy]

It will hopefully weed out a lot of the guys that apply for the fun of it or on a whim. You know the guys I am talking about guys applying for Grizzly draws that have no idea about the area or access etc. Or the guys that apply for a grizz in case they get their moose draw.

If you were compelled to send in $75 with your 6 dollar application, I bet you more guys would at least research the area out or think twice about applying. This would free up tags to those that really want to go regardless of other tags or know about the access issues.

Same thing with sheep. I know of 2 Fraser river tags (odds of 50:1) that the hunters never even bought tags or went. One guy phoned me for more information and I told him I would be hunting the area on sept. 10 looking for sheep. He soon came discouraged when I told him there was a regular season in there for full curls 10 days before his tag opened up. When I ran into him later in the fall he said he never even went becuase all the big sheep would be killed before his tag opened up.:rolleyes: Another guy did not bother to go as it was too far from PG.

Its these types that might not apply if you have to send in the tag money with the LEH.

BHB

People probably wouldn't be compelled, I think they'd be discouraged to put in in the first place. 6 of one half dozen of the other but as you say there would probably be several people who simply don't put in.



In any case it's all about the dead side. If we have a draw to harvest 5 samsquatches and we've traditionally put out 10 tags we'll say on average:

4 people haven't bought the tag
4 people bought the tag and were unsucessful and
2 people bought the tag and harvested samsquatches

By removing those 3 people who didn't buy the tag we'll lose the money for gen revenue and HCTF. Now if we took those tags away and gave those 3 tags away assuming those tags go to hunters who actually go hunting we might harvest 1 more animal, maybe.

Looking at it the other way and saying the average success rate is 20% why don't we simply release 25 tags have and have:

10 people who didn't buy the tag
10 people who bought the tag and were unsucessful and
5 people who bought the tag and harveste samsquatches




Remember, it's all about the dead side.:lol:

[hunter1947]

A nother Idea would be that if you got picked for LEH and did not want hunt with your LEH draw that you can give it to someone els to hunt buy sending your permit back into the wildlife branch and then them changing the permit name to the person that has the LEH tag given to them from the other ,this way no tags would go to waist.

[bridger]

one change that should be made if you draw a hard to get tag and can't go you should be able to turn the tag in and have it re drawn.

[bridger]

sone change i would like to see is that if you draw a hard to get tag like junction sheep and find you can't or don't want to go you should be able to turn the tag back and have it redrawn.

[Geo.338]

Something I havn't heard here is that some hunters plan their whole season around the moose or elk tag that they may or may not have drawn .They also may put in for a bonus or two such as Grizzly ,Caribou or Goat .

So maybe they are unsuccessful on the moose or elk but they draw a bear or goat .But lets face it most hunters are hunting for meat and are not willing to go on an expensive fall hunt for a hide and no meat.

In this light I would rather see an option to return the authorization than see it wasted .Paying for it before and then losing your money if you do not go is a crappy way to go in my opinion .

Any extra administration work on the part of the ministry will in the end cost us more in either tags or LEH card fees .

[boxhitch]

then them changing the permit name to the person that has the LEH tag given to them from the other
Too easy to stack the ballots. The coach of the hockey team would always win.



find you can't or don't want to go you should be able to turn the tag back and have it redrawn.
feasible, but where does the line get drawn ?
Surrender must occur within ____ days.
Re-draw occurs in ______ days.
Second successful Applicant has _____ days to confirm or deny.
Re-draw til suitable user is found ?

[kgriz]

People say I never get drawn........Wah. In many cases, I've talked to lots of people who never get drawn for Griz but when pressed, they state that where they put in for has ridiculous odds. I put in for tougher access areas and/or areas with less animals and get drawn quite a bit; why should I be penalized by saying that everybody else should be drawn before me again if they don't manage the odds properly to get drawn in the first place???!!! I do agree with the idea of having to pay for the tag immediately once drawn...probably would weed out a lot of the lookie-loos.

[PGK]

People say I never get drawn........Wah. In many cases, I've talked to lots of people who never get drawn for Griz but when pressed, they state that where they put in for has ridiculous odds. I put in for tougher access areas and/or areas with less animals and get drawn quite a bit; why should I be penalized by saying that everybody else should be drawn before me again if they don't manage the odds properly to get drawn in the first place???!!! I do agree with the idea of having to pay for the tag immediately once drawn...probably would weed out a lot of the lookie-loos.

BINGO! If you ain't getting drawn, you're putting in at odds that are too high. I never ever put in for more than 8:1

[riflebuilder]

I don't think the LEH system is that bad. It is a lottery and everyone has the same chance to draw as anyone else. Besides there is a GOS on every species of big game animal in bc other than Grizz and Rossies. If you want to hunt goat go hunt goat or Elk or Bllack Bear or Moose or sheep all four types. We have the most varied and longest big game seasons in north America so I don't think a guy should complain to much. We have it better than 97% of hunters in North America.

[Piperdown]

The current system is fine with me, it is the luck of the draw. As long as there are still areas in the province that allow you access to an open season even if it is for immature/calf/tripalm/6 point etc., then you still have an opportunity to get out and hunt. Lord knows we don't want it to go the way of the saltwater fishery.

[The Hermit]

I think its a money maker the way it is and the Gov isn't going to end LEH or change it in ways that reduce their revenue. Review above suggestions and me thinks you will see the method in their madness... follow the money!

[CanuckShooter]

BINGO! If you ain't getting drawn, you're putting in at odds that are too high. I never ever put in for more than 8:1

Sorry you ain't correct. Been drawn for moose twice since the inception over 30 years ago, never apply if over 5:1..even tried for areas you'd need horses or float planes........7 of us applied for goat at last years 1.1:1 odds with two goats available...none of us got one with the results being stated as 3.2:1 , accordingly that says 6.4 guys applied for the two draws...go figure??? Ya...someone is going to pipe in and say sometimes they give out extra tags that aren't advertised as being available. From my perspective the LEH system stinks..something like alta has were a moose draw could be aquired once every 5 to 7 years would be a vast improvement.

Another idea that hasn't been floated yet....example: You get a Bull moose draw for 7-9, you pay in advance for your tag and it's only good in 7-9. Or you get a doe draw in 5-13, you can only buy two other deer tags for other MUs, one of your 3 provincial limit must be the doe or nothing.

I also wouldn't mind having an opportunity to purchase a restricted tag ie: calf moose tags that are good for the entire season in a specific MU, or doe tags in areas where they would like some herd management done [albiet when you buy the doe tags you give up the right to shoot that spiker]

[KevinB]

I think its a money maker the way it is and the Gov isn't going to end LEH or change it in ways that reduce their revenue. Review above suggestions and me thinks you will see the method in their madness... follow the money!


You really think the LEH system is making the Gov. a whole bunch of money? :roll:

[tuchodi]

I don't think the LEH system is that bad but a few changes could make it better. I agree with everyone about people putting in for higher odd's tags and never bothering to go or buy a tag for what ever reason. I would like to see the Rossies, Bison, Sheep, Griz and possibly any real hard to get to animals like goats etc drawn first and if you are succesfull on any one of these the minute your lucky number is drawen your number is removed from any more LEH draws that you may have put in for that year and in following years if you put in again your odds would be reduced. Also as many have said you have to buy the tag so within a very short time ouy pay for it or it goes back into the draw and someone else gets it. Now I know you will say then someone could then get one of the big four that was also succesful in maybe a moose ,deer or cow elk but the tag could be drawn again and the computer could make sure it only picks from someone that put in for the same tag and didn't get any LEH's that year.I also wouldn't mind seeing the price of the tags be increased on those LEH's a little as anyone that really wants to hunt one of these animals I am sure wouldn't mine paying a little more if his or here odds were better. I personnaly put in for LEH and change my hunting plans if I am lucky and get drawn, but I dont count on it. We as BC hunters are very lucky we have a large province and there is a lot of open seasons to choose from so the LEH's are put in place to protect the animals in areas that are either very accessable to hunt and we would wipe them out if an open season was implemented or there are not very many animals like Rosssie's and they have to limit their numbers. No system is perfect but we as hunters can help buy having this type of discussion and hope the biologist would look at some of our suggestions as a lot of hunters have some very good IDEA's.

[KevinB]

[quote=CanuckShooter;370108]Sorry you ain't correct. Been drawn for moose twice since the inception over 30 years ago, never apply if over 5:1..even tried for areas you'd need horses or float planes........7 of us applied for goat at last years 1.1:1 odds with two goats available...none of us got one with the results being stated as 3.2:1 , accordingly that says 6.4 guys applied for the two draws...go figure???
quote]

Sorry to hear you've been at the unlucky end of the bell curve Canuck. Been there.

But that's the way things work out in a random draw, there are always going to be a certain number of people who by chance end up at either the lucky end or the unlucky end of the curve. But the vast majority will be somewhere closer to the middle, and that's about as fair as you can make things. Are you sure everyone in your group filled in those goat LEH cards correctly? Are you sure there were still just 2 goats available this year, it sounds like they increased the number.

I never hear many people complain about the system, when it's the other way around.

[GoatGuy]

I think its a money maker the way it is and the Gov isn't going to end LEH or change it in ways that reduce their revenue. Review above suggestions and me thinks you will see the method in their madness... follow the money!

Big money maker - that must be it.:cry:

[GoatGuy]

BINGO! If you ain't getting drawn, you're putting in at odds that are too high. I never ever put in for more than 8:1

I would consider 8:1 a long shot. :smile:

Other than bison, elk and sheep I try to keep 'er under 2:1.

[porcupine]

Colorado has a true preference point system for elk, deer, and antelope. This means that the applicants who apply for a particular tag and have the most points draw the tag. Trends from year to year and unit to unit can be followed and hunters can anticipate and plan on drawing a tag in a certain year. Remember, applicants who apply with the most points win.
Sheep, moose, and goat tags are distributed differently. The number of preference points are capped at 3 and bonus points are accrued after an applicant has applied for and obtained 3 preference points. The long and short of the bonus points is that applicants with more bonus points have a better chance at drawing the tags, but the tags are still distributed on a random drawing basis, different than the elk, deer, and antelope tags.

The bottom line in regards to sheep, moose, and goat tags is that once you have applied for 3 years, you are only then eligible to draw. Every year after the 3rd year that you apply, your odds of drawing will get better.

This system makes sense to me.
________
Lincoln Mark series specifications (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Lincoln_Mark_series)

[PGK]

Sorry you ain't correct. Been drawn for moose twice since the inception over 30 years ago, never apply if over 5:1..even tried for areas you'd need horses or float planes........7 of us applied for goat at last years 1.1:1 odds with two goats available...none of us got one with the results being stated as 3.2:1 , accordingly that says 6.4 guys applied for the two draws...go figure??? Ya...someone is going to pipe in and say sometimes they give out extra tags that aren't advertised as being available. From my perspective the LEH system stinks..something like alta has were a moose draw could be aquired once every 5 to 7 years would be a vast improvement.

Another idea that hasn't been floated yet....example: You get a Bull moose draw for 7-9, you pay in advance for your tag and it's only good in 7-9. Or you get a doe draw in 5-13, you can only buy two other deer tags for other MUs, one of your 3 provincial limit must be the doe or nothing.

I also wouldn't mind having an opportunity to purchase a restricted tag ie: calf moose tags that are good for the entire season in a specific MU, or doe tags in areas where they would like some herd management done [albiet when you buy the doe tags you give up the right to shoot that spiker]

Man, I can only assume you pissed somebody in Victoria off. Out of the three of us, we've averaged a bull draw every 2 years for the last 20, which is at 7 or 8 to 1 odds.
Other than moose, all my draws are below 4:1
Goatguy is clearly tougher than me :mrgreen: I need at least one road INTO the MU I wanna hunt, ya dink

[wsm]

maybe once every five years but not once in a lifetime.for some of us it makes us feel like kids on christmas eve. cant take that away

[guest]

Once in a life time Bison with success, same for Rosies maybe, who knows but the system seems flawed at present.
Porcupine has another solid idea too, I think all avenues should be explored, some guys maybe not me bring up good points and ideas.
Thank goodness for GOS in general or on deer or at least 4pt., I do not plan trips until my LEH is back other then when I have hired packers for drop camps etc.
CT

[BCrams]

Man, I can only assume you pissed somebody in Victoria off. Out of the three of us, we've averaged a bull draw every 2 years for the last 20, which is at 7 or 8 to 1 odds.


20 years ..... you sure about that!! :tongue:

Lets see 22 yrs old - the past 20 years = 2 years old :lol:

[eastkoot]

I don't think he's even 20 yrs old!!!:razz:

[PGK]

20 years ..... you sure about that!! :tongue:

Lets see 22 yrs old - the past 20 years = 2 years old :lol:

My uncle died when I was 16. For a time there was 4 of us. Why must you make me explain in great detail everything I post on the intraweb?

[BCrams]

It might have made more sense to state you have put in for LEH hunts since you aquired your CORE a few years ago which was why it was funny to see you put 20 years. Good natured ribbing at best!!

Condolences on your uncles passing.

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

I like the LEH as it is. I've hunted in Alberta and their draws have bad parts too! Leave ours alone.

[PGK]

It might have made more sense to state you have put in for LEH hunts since you aquired your CORE a few years ago which was why it was funny to see you put 20 years. Good natured ribbing at best!!

Condolences on your uncles passing.

10 years is more than a few ;) I knew what you were up to.

[CanuckShooter]

Man, I can only assume you pissed somebody in Victoria off. Out of the three of us, we've averaged a bull draw every 2 years for the last 20, which is at 7 or 8 to 1 odds.
Other than moose, all my draws are below 4:1
Goatguy is clearly tougher than me :mrgreen: I need at least one road INTO the MU I wanna hunt, ya dink

PGK...you guys are some lucky !!! I was just trying to make the point that the stated odds on the draws have very little to do with your chances of success....while at least with mine !!!

[6616]

PGK...you guys are some lucky !!! I was just trying to make the point that the stated odds on the draws have very little to do with your chances of success....while at least with mine !!!


Playing the odds doesn't always work. Lots of people doing it and this can cause the odds to swing quickly. The odds displayed in the LEH booklet are last years odds. The hunts that were good odds lasr year, are thus sometimes heavily subscribed to this year thus changing the odds dramatically.

[KevinB]

Playing the odds doesn't always work. Lots of people doing it and this can cause the odds to swing quickly. The odds displayed in the LEH booklet are last years odds. The hunts that were good odds lasr year, are thus sometimes heavily subscribed to this year thus changing the odds dramatically.

Bang on 6616, once again.


For all the guys that complain about the LEH, and say that it isn't fair, and that they don't get drawn as much as they think they should, bla bla bla...Take a singe dice (die?), and pretend you are the number three. Roll it a hundred times, and keep track of what is rolled each time. This is the same as one hunter entering a 6:1 hunt on unreduced odds, 100 years in a row. I can tell you right now what you'll probably find, but do it for yourself and maybe you'll learn something about how probablility works. ;)

[6616]

I'm not going to claim that the LEH system is perfect and that no changes are required,. but it seems to me that there are away too many hunts on LEH in BC that really don't need to be.

For example all the goat hunts in the EK are on LEH and the season runs from Sept 1st to Nov 30th if you include bow season. Many of the hunts are undersubscribed too, and many of the good goat areas have access management measures in place. Many of the authorizations go un-used.
Would it be realistic to expect that a shorter GOS that runs from say Oct 1st to Oct 31st would result in a similar harvest level and no LEH required?

Other examples: If a short GOS for moose or a GOS for antlerless white tailed deer had opening and closing dates that were consistent from region to region, would that not distribute hunter pressure and harvest making them sustainable and reducing the need for LEH?

If the number of LEH hunts in BC were halved, maybe the LEH system would not be such a burden or such a deterent to participation and recruitment/retention.

[bighornbob]

I'm not going to claim that the LEH system is perfect and that no changes are required,. but it seems to me that there are away too many hunts on LEH in BC that really don't need to be.

For example all the goat hunts in the EK are on LEH and the season runs from Sept 1st to Nov 30th if you include bow season. Many of the hunts are undersubscribed too, and many of the good goat areas have access management measures in place. Many of the authorizations go un-used.
Would it be realistic to expect that a shorter GOS that runs from say Oct 1st to Oct 31st would result in a similar harvest level and no LEH required?

Other examples: If a short GOS for moose or a GOS for antlerless white tailed deer had opening and closing dates that were consistent from region to region, would that not distribute hunter pressure and harvest making them sustainable and reducing the need for LEH?

If the number of LEH hunts in BC were halved, maybe the LEH system would not be such a burden or such a deterent to participation and recruitment/retention.


You hit the nail on the head.

But you know if you opened it all up the whole province to a regular season for all species and then gave 3 LEH tags for a Doe you can shoot from a paved highway, there would be 20 guys complaining about how the system needs to be changed.

BHB

[GoatGuy]

Goatguy is clearly tougher than me :mrgreen: I need at least one road INTO the MU I wanna hunt, ya dink


They all have roads into them - course when it comes to some species whether or not you want to use the road is at your discretion. I've only seen one goat shot off a road - talk about lucky. :smile:

I look at it this way: put in and don't get to go hunting or put in, get drawn and go hunting. Even if you have to hike a couple hours it's a whole heck of a lot better than reaching for the remote.

[BCrams]

They all have roads into them - course when it comes to some species whether or not you want to use the road is at your discretion. I've only seen one goat shot off a road - talk about lucky. :smile:

I look at it this way: put in and don't get to go hunting or put in, get drawn and go hunting. Even if you have to hike a couple hours it's a whole heck of a lot better than reaching for the remote.

Whats up? PGK wants to be able to drive and take a goat off the road?

He can always still put in, don't get drawn and still go hunting goats in 7-05 in the open season. There are more than a few spots you can find goats without fail...........after a 4-6 hour hike to a base camp from which to hunt them from. :cool:

A couple of them are even shorter hikes (a couple hours on hidden trails!)

[PGK]

You already did my homework! You want to do it again so I can take a week off to hunt goats in Sept??

Didn't think so :mrgreen:

My goat draw is 2.2:1 still haven't got it :|

[CanuckShooter]

Bang on 6616, once again.


For all the guys that complain about the LEH, and say that it isn't fair, and that they don't get drawn as much as they think they should, bla bla bla...Take a singe dice (die?), and pretend you are the number three. Roll it a hundred times, and keep track of what is rolled each time. This is the same as one hunter entering a 6:1 hunt on unreduced odds, 100 years in a row. I can tell you right now what you'll probably find, but do it for yourself and maybe you'll learn something about how probablility works. ;)

1981 t0 2008 = 27yrs my moosey dice came up twice at odds consistently better than 6 to 1...:shock:...defies probability...I gotta get PGK to touch my applications...

You'd think that at 6/1 it's probable that you'd get a hit at least once every 6 years...or if your luck was crappy at least once every 12...or if your luck was absolutely in the tank once in 18years...or if you were so freakin' unlucky that no one would believe that the leh system could be so flawed maybe you'd have to wait 24years....but if you were playing with a four sided die and your number came up twice in 27years, like me, you'd cry foul...unfair...the system sucks the big one...change it..tweak it...go to gos...anything but this crappy set up would be an improvement from my perspective.

[BCrams]

You will get the draw.

[GoatGuy]

You already did my homework! You want to do it again so I can take a week off to hunt goats in Sept??

Didn't think so :mrgreen:

My goat draw is 2.2:1 still haven't got it :|

I've got some spots in northern part of 7A gos if you want info as well.

[BCrams]

I've got some spots in northern part of 7A gos if you want info as well.

Maybe we can put up maps of sorts in a separate thread to 'educate' would be hunters who want to pursue goats! :cool: Where to hunt etc. Be great if we can increase harvest success rates for resident hunters.

Arming hunters with information is great.....yet it still requires effort on the hunter(s) part to succeed. But at least they may go afield with the mindset of, "Hey, I can do it."

[goatdancer]

I like the Alberta system better than ours because you move up the ladder every time you are an unsuccessful applicant. Successful applicants and newbies start at the bottom again. If you don't apply in any particular year, you don't move up. This guarantees the revenue stream. The only drawback is that their system is run by IBM who gets the majority of the money.

[6616]

You hit the nail on the head.

But you know if you opened it all up the whole province to a regular season for all species and then gave 3 LEH tags for a Doe you can shoot from a paved highway, there would be 20 guys complaining about how the system needs to be changed.

BHB

You know Alex, as far as I can tell, no matter what is done there will be at least 20 out of 100 hunters who will complain anyway. You're absolutelly right.

[KevinB]

[quote=CanuckShooter;370948]1981 t0 2008 = 27yrs my moosey dice came up twice at odds consistently better than 6 to 1...:shock:...defies probability...I gotta get PGK to touch my applications...

It doesn't defy probability at all, it just means that you are one of the few who will fall into one of the tails of the bell curve. Sucks, but that's life. I'd be frustrated too if I ended up there...but someone has to.

You'd think that at 6/1 it's probable that you'd get a hit at least once every 6 years...

Why would you think that? Only some of the applicants will end up getting drawn about one sixth of the time. A lot will get drawn a little more often, or a little less often. Fewer will get drawn quite a bit less, or quite a bit more. A very few will end up like you, or the opposite. If you haven't drawn for 20 years for a 6:1 odds hunt, you still only have a 1 in 6 chance next year. You need to do that die experiment. You'll be surprised what you get. Go read up on bell curves, and how the area under the curve represents probablility of an occurrence.

or if your luck was crappy at least once every 12...or if your luck was absolutely in the tank once in 18years...or if you were so freakin' unlucky that no one would believe that the leh system could be so flawed maybe you'd have to wait 24years....but if you were playing with a four sided die and your number came up twice in 27years, like me, you'd cry foul...unfair...the system sucks the big one...change it..tweak it...go to gos...anything but this crappy set up would be an improvement from my perspective.[quote]


I'm not saying that I like the LEH system. I think it could be scrapped in a lot of areas, or it could be changed. But you can't argue to scrap it because it is "unfair" - it is as fair as you can get if you want to give every applicant an equal chance every year, given that the number of individual hunts, the number of authorizations for each hunt, the number of applicants for each hunt, etc., changes each year.

Like someone else said earlier, removing the few hunters that have been drawn, from the pool of applicants for a really long-odds hunt, will do pretty much nothing to improve your odds of getting drawn in any practical sense. If some hunter gets drawn twice for a 100:1 Roosevelt Elk draw, I would be happy for them and congratulate them and wish them luck, instead of bitching about how unfair things are because I haven't been drawn for a 6:1 moose draw as often as I'd like. Removing that Roosie hunter from the pool of applicants would NOTHING to increase your odds or opportunities or to make things more "fair", but it sure would restrict THEIR opportunities. If you don't like the LEH that's fine (I sure don't love it but it's what we have), but bitch about it for real reasons, not because you happen to be one of the unlucky ones.

Nothing personal Canuck, I understand your frustration. Sucks to be where you are for sure.

[SUAFOYT]

Don't agree with the concept of trying to stop people from having to use a LEH tag that "can't get to a hunt" in that year as its impossible to monitor.

However a couple things that I think would help are:
1) Only one LEH draw per person per year. (eg if you put in for 5 draws and get drawn for one the rest are not eligible) You would assign a priority to your draws of 1st choice to 5th choice for the 5 draws. Say your 1 st choice is moose and you get drawn then the other 4 are toast.

2) More use of the graduating odds system like AB. All LEH animals to be on graduating odds over a period of at least 5 yrs. So if you get a draw this year, your odds are slim to be drawn again for at least 5 yrs. My bud in AB knows that it will be at least 5 yrs till his next draw but also knows that his buds will have a chance to get one as well.

BTW me and my partner have got 3 bison, 3 rosies and 2 moose the last 10 yrs.

I like the concept in your first proposal. Put it forward. John Thornton is the guy to send it to. Get to him before he retires and they put a newbie in his place.

[kgriz]

Great idea!........not. If somebody got this to fly by complaining to JT, I hope the griz I don't get to shoot because I've got a couple in my "lifetime" is the one that steals your hard-won elk from your camp

[djc300]

I like the luck of the draw system. If the rules change that meens that we're all going to have to wait a very long time because of all the new young hunters coming into play with the draws.

[guest]

Kgriz,
there are many different ideas being thrown around here, some better then others. The one in a lifetime thing is only a statement, success on Bison, Roosevelts or even griz for that matter, do you not think it would be fair for some one to have the opportunity to hunt one before another guy has 3 or 4 chances. Some of the better ideas are being posted by Several guys. Our system could use a look at for improvements ....... thats it.
CT

[husky30-06]

:sad:I have mixed feelings on this, my Dad and I were successful in a spring griz one year and I was not able to go as winter work ran my bills up and work came first, damn!!!! Then years ago we were again successful in a goat draw but due to the time of the hunt we were snowed out and did not know the area well enough to change hunting plans. I even flew the area in a plane to scope it out for a good area to hunt. Now recently I have been trying to get another chance at the draws and for five years I have not had much success. Last year I put in for 6 LEH draws and got non! If this draw rule was in place it would suck big time(have no chance for years) over a technicality, but I have several friends who are successful every year.

[mpotzold]

I'm not in favor of having this change implemented ,the way I see this is if your lucky enough to get a draw 2 or 3 or even 4 times so be it.

Any one out there has just as much of a chance to get a draw as others ,its just shit house luck if you are a repeater more then once and for these people that do get a LEH draw for one species more then once I suggest you go buy some lotto tickets :wink:.

Totally agree!

[KevinB]

for five years I have not had much success. Last year I put in for 6 LEH draws and got non!

If you want to increase your chances of getting drawn, you have to consistently apply for hunts with good odds. There's no secret to success.

but I have several friends who are successful every year.


if you have certain friends who seem to draw something every year, then they are applying for hunts with good odds. I'd be willing to bet my left leg that they aren't drawing for long-odds hunts "every year".

[johnk]

In 2004 received an LEH for 3-18 for November Shared Hunt for two bull moose. Took 12 consecutive days but harvested 2 bulls. The following year was my wife's first year so as not to hurt her chances at a shared hunt I put in for a single November bull and we both got drawn.

In 2006, 5 guys living on the same street in Logan Lake(8 bulls) got drawn for November bulls, some shared and some solo.

Coincidence??

[kgriz]

Not a coincidence.........I'm sure that the LEH input person sits in their office cooking the numbers and conspiring against certain people every year, evilly laughing as they do it:roll:
Come on.
I have crappy luck at 649 but I would never think to change it so that past winners can not play again or get "reduced odds". Everybody buys and pays for the same chance. I tolerate the system as is because its about as close to being non-biassed as possible as compared to many other stipulations of the hunting regs......getting drawn has nothing to do if you own a horse, jetboat , drive, fly or walk.........its just a matter of luck. Too bad access management and other management tools are not this fair.

[johnk]

Not a coincidence.........I'm sure that the LEH input person sits in their office cooking the numbers and conspiring against certain people every year, evilly laughing as they do it:roll:
Come on.
I have crappy luck at 649 but I would never think to change it so that past winners can not play again or get "reduced odds". Everybody buys and pays for the same chance. I tolerate the system as is because its about as close to being non-biassed as possible as compared to many other stipulations of the hunting regs......getting drawn has nothing to do if you own a horse, jetboat , drive, fly or walk.........its just a matter of luck. Too bad access management and other management tools are not this fair.

Did you think I was complaining about the LEH draw system? "Eau contraire, mon ami"! I accept it and live with it and for the first time it does not affect me one way or the other. I was just trolling for opinions.

The results of the '06 draw led me to wonder if they dedicate a certain percentage of draws to locals?

[SHAKER]

LEH is used to manage hunters not wildlife. Always hear the claim that theirs more Grizz tags this year........blah blah blah. Most of them tags are in areas that have very poor success rates or limited access. If theirs no critters or access then you could let out 5000 tags and how many will you kill? Still can confuse biologists with that one. Areas that hold good bear numbers that can be accessed have low tag counts. Aiming for super minimal harvest I guess? Grizz managment is Political nothing more.

Goats........yikes... zone a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,I,j ect. Micromanged to death with low odds on most of them. Last count there's over 118 goat draws under 2-1 yep looks like we need LEH for that one. Some places for sure need to be mananged this way but a majority are unnessessary and can be on a GOS. How many people really fill their walls full of Goats? Most will take one and never do it again.

Sheep? Lamb\Ewe tags, Horn restrictions ect... The sheep topic could go on for ever, but some of these draws could also go to a GOS. Ashnola sheep for instance has 62 tags available for a resident harvest of 1 that I know of (this came from our regional biologist). This draw could also be modified to a GOS or at least part of it. Cause theirs no lacking on Sheep numbers. They even took some from here to relocate.

Moose is managed differently by every region. LEH for mature moose, cow\calf draws ect. If managed differently I'm sure we could get some real open seasons. Example set up a horn restriction and leave the breeding stock of Cows and Calves alone. 10 point\ tri-palm season was modeled from Alaska, but last time I looked we don't have Alasken moose here. I've talked with people from every region and they all have problems and no one will agree with everything though.

Elk: I heard lots of screaming and yelling when they took some of those LEH's away and went to a general open in the west Koots, but after the season was over. "Hey that was a pretty good move" was the responce from the very same people who were so upset about the move to begin with. Did they kill all them big bulls out? NO, did they get to hunt them? Yes! Was it a sucess? Sounded like it to me!

Bison: well pull a tag and you get your critter good for you! Not worth getting upset about that you didn't pull a tag. I've met guys that have done it twice now... hey good on ya. Maybe I'll get lucky next year! (Yeah right who am I kidding.)

Bottom line: Less LEH and give us the opertunity to hunt these animals "if" we want too, period!

[PGK]

The Johnk I know would never troll! He's a stripper!

[johnk]

The Johnk I know would never troll! He's a stripper!

Yah, but when you troll naked stripping seems to be a moot point!:razz:

Oops, you were using a flyfishing metaphor....I am sooo embarassed!

My.........face is blushing!:redface:

[lloydster]

how many entries do you think the anti's are successful for that really have no intention of "the hunt" other than preventing that poor defenseless animal from being hunted.

[GoatGuy]

how many entries do you think the anti's are successful for that really have no intention of "the hunt" other than preventing that poor defenseless animal from being hunted.

hundreds of thousands.

[Will]

I'm sure that the LEH input person sits in their office cooking the numbers and conspiring against certain people every year, evilly laughing as they do it
I knew it all along........:x

[6616]

how many entries do you think the anti's are successful for that really have no intention of "the hunt" other than preventing that poor defenseless animal from being hunted.

They get most of them, that's why we never get any...!