Stone sheep, counting rings.

[Ambush]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/0152.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11660&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent)

I was taking pics for entry into the P&Y today. After the the bighorn post by GoatGuy earlier, I thought it might be usefull to show how much easier it is to count rings on a thinhorn than a bighorn. Keep in mind these horns have been cleaned by a taxidermist.

[Dirty]

7.5, 8.5 if there is a ring near the base.

[325 wsm]

8.5 the last ring is quite visible about 3/4" off the base but the lamb tip ring is harder to distinguish about 2 1/2" down from the tip

[Ambush]

I was taking pics for entry into the P&Y today. After GoatGuys's recent bighorn post, I thought it might be usefull to show a thinhorn. Keep in mind these horns have been cleaned by a taxidermist, so the rings show well. Quite a difference.http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/0152.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11660&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent)

[bruin]

That's about as cut and dry as it gets.

[6616]

Definitely away easier, but, it's more difficult to determine the lamb tip annuli which is usually much closer to the tip then on a bighorn.

[budismyhorse]

8, nice ram, P/Y makes it that much better!

[Jagermeister]

This is a real nice closeup of a broadside. It's pretty definitive of the yearly growth rings. In my count, I see 7 annulli suggesting that this animal is 8 years of age. I would question the "lamb ring" as someone has suggested, correct me if I'm out on this.
Given that this trophy was cleaned, you can sure appreciate the difficulty in field judging.
Every now and then I try the little test that is accessed from the Wild Sheep Society's page. I never get 100%, usually two wrong, but only because I erred on the side of caution.
http://www.wildsheepsociety.org/node/62

[Bighorn hunter]

I get 8 as well. what a great looking ram!And well done with the bow.

[GoatGuy]

Somebody care to draw arrows to the rings on there?

[BCrams]

Somebody care to draw arrows to the rings on there?

talking to me GG?? ;)

[Kody94]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Staggerino/0152a.jpg

Always curious how a CI reconciles the need to see 8 visible annuli and the guidance below that clearly shows the lamb-tip not really creating a "visible annulus".

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/cisheep.jpg

[BCrams]

SSSter layed it as it should be for CI papers.

[6616]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Staggerino/0152a.jpg

Always curious how a CI reconciles the need to see 8 visible annuli and the guidance below that clearly shows the lamb-tip not really creating a "visible annulus".

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/cisheep.jpg

The key thing is being able to recognize the differing appearance of lamb tip annuli (if it's still there),,,, taking for granted (hoping) that CI contractors are trained in this regard.

[budismyhorse]

Lets keep this rolling, how about a not so easy one.

The CI told me it was one of the hardest Stone's to age he has seen, due to False Annuli,

I still don't agree with his judgement, see what you guys get.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0980.JPGhttp://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP09851.JPG
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0985.JPGhttp://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/IMGP0994.JPG

[Kody94]

Do you have a side on pic of the long side?

It is an interesting one. At first blush it looks 10 to me....although I reserve the right to change my mind!

[Kody94]

Thanks bud. I am still thinking 10, but those first couple years arent very clear....could be only 9.

I assume this is a Dall, eh?

[budismyhorse]

Its my stone from this summer, but it does look like a dall now that you mention it.

[Kody94]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Staggerino/IMGP0994a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Staggerino/IMGP0985a.jpg

[Kody94]

I recognize it now that I have looked back at the stone pic you posted previously. It does like look like a Tat Dall to me though. :)

It looks like it has a long lamb-tip (almost as long as the one on my stone), but then it seems to have a crappy second year. It looks like a ring right below where it was broomed to that is also visible on the opposite horn.

The annuli just above the base (#10 in my markup) is pretty obvious in your close up.

[Ambush]

Ten would be my guess also. Looks like he lived in tough country judging by the growth. Great ram.

[SKYLINE]

StringFling, What was the final score on your ram? Isn't it just about time to score your moose for P&Y as well? Congrats on a great season.

[6616]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Staggerino/IMGP0994a.jpg



I'm not sure about the lamb tip, what you have marked would be extraordinary lamb tip growth, the 1st year annuli is usually be much closer to the tip on thinhorns IMHO.

[6616]

Its my stone from this summer, but it does look like a dall now that you mention it.

It's truely great ram Jeff....

[Kody94]

I'm not sure about the lamb tip, what you have marked would be extraordinary lamb tip growth, the 1st year annuli is usually be much closer to the tip on thinhorns IMHO.

Could be, but you can see a line at that spot on the outside and the inside of that horn.

In my experience, lamb-tips can definitely be that long on a thinhorn. The one on my big stone is VERY obvious (its "cracking", like it had nearly broken) and is bigger than that one.

[6616]

Could be, but you can see a line at that spot on the outside and the inside of that horn.

In my experience, lamb-tips can definitely be that long on a thinhorn. The one on my big stone is VERY obvious (its "cracking", like it had nearly broken) and is bigger than that one.

Maybe this ram is 11 1/2 years old?

[budismyhorse]

Hey thanks Andy, by no means is it a big sheep (only 34x13.5), but I was excited to find an old banged up mature ram to take. I won't lie, I got fooled badly, from a distance I thought he was a huge sheep, turns out he was a bit of a dwarf, with a short face. Threw me off, but I was pumped regardless. we had an awesome trip, chased rams everyday, passed up some younger legal rams, tagged this one, what more could we ask for?

Like I say, he isn't easy to age, and when a few more guys weigh in, I'll tell you the CI age.

[Kody94]

Maybe this ram is 11 1/2 years old?

Andy, I'll post a pic up of the lamb tip on my ram tomorrow (front and back). Its very clear and more than 4.5" long. Just to show that it happens, as I think one can easily underestimate the potential first year growth on thinhorns. Bud's looks very similar to the lamb tip on my ram.

It could be 11.5, but I don't think it would be from squishing another year into the first 3. The lamb tip may not be as long as I have shown but I am pretty confident about the 2nd year annuli.

Bud, I know its not the longest ram in the world, but its a very cool ram and definitely very mature. I'd be proud of it for sure.

Cheers,

[6616]

Hey thanks Andy, by no means is it a big sheep (only 34x13.5), but I was excited to find an old banged up mature ram to take. I won't lie, I got fooled badly, from a distance I thought he was a huge sheep, turns out he was a bit of a dwarf, with a short face. Threw me off, but I was pumped regardless. we had an awesome trip, chased rams everyday, passed up some younger legal rams, tagged this one, what more could we ask for?

Like I say, he isn't easy to age, and when a few more guys weigh in, I'll tell you the CI age.

He's still OK, an old veteran of many battles on the mountain.

[daycort]

I say 10.5.

[boxhitch]

I'm thinking some of the growth looks short in the first 4 yrs, and that this trend keeps up throughout. Poor feed, genetics whatever.
I'm calling it 12.

[BCrams]

The lamb tip is tough to tell from the photo. Based on experience and seeing how the growth pattern is consistent, I personally have a hard time seeing excellent growth for lamb tip and then successive shorter growth periods. I would say its just the genetics of this ram. (unless I see the horns in my hands and the tips better).

Based on the photo, I call 11 (or 11.5 as I do it) years old but can reserve judgement unless horns are in my hands. Just take the numbers SSSter drew up on the picture and put the 1 about an inch from the tip and then 2, 3, and 4 on ...

I have no doubt the ram SSSter has good lamb tips but it also has corresponding growth rates in successive years to go with it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/IMGP0985.jpg

[Lil Buck]

I see 10 .Nice ram .Congrats .

[Bighorn hunter]

I'm gonna say 11 IMO, and will say that the CI has it at 8

BHH

[hunter1947]

Im no sheep hunter ,but I will go with 8 1/2 years old.

[Kody94]

The lamb tip is tough to tell from the photo. Based on experience and seeing how the growth pattern is consistent, I personally have a hard time seeing excellent growth for lamb tip and then successive shorter growth periods. I would say its just the genetics of this ram. (unless I see the horns in my hands and the tips better).

Based on the photo, I call 11 years old but can reserve judgement unless horns are in my hands. Just take the numbers SSSter drew up on the picture and put the 1 about an inch from the tip and then 2, 3, and 4 on ...

I have no doubt the ram SSSter has good lamb tips but it also has corresponding growth rates in successive years to go with it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/IMGP0985.jpg

Its definitely possible. What I struggle with is so little growth in its second year. The tips are so thin that the "volume" of horn growth in its second year (first full spring/summer of growth)would be orders of magnitude less than in its 4th, 5th and 6th years. I have trouble accepting that...but have not closed my mind to it.

I also have a pet hypothesis about lamb tips, which I might as well share now. I don't know how often this might happen, but I think that when some lamb tips are broken/popped off, they come off very clean. That may leave a little "lambtip" looking nub (which was formerly inside the lamb-tip) above a slight widening in the horn, which was once flush with the general curvature of the horn. The result however is a ram that looks like it has its lamb-tip, but really doesn't.

Anyway, as I said, I don't know how often this might happen (or if it does), but I have seen a number of thinhorns with long looking lamb-tips and then many others with short little nubs. Makes me wonder why there would be so much variety in first year growth.

Cheers!

[BCrams]

Anyway, as I said, I don't know how often this might happen (or if it does), but I have seen a number of thinhorns with long looking lamb-tips and then many others with short little nubs. Makes me wonder why there would be so much variety in first year growth.

Cheers!

I've had the opportunity to observe a lot of Stone's sheep (every day actually - for months..... once for 2 months and another time for 5.5 months straight - spring through fall - not counting hunting trips stone's) and I havn't seen the variety as you describe. Stone's are pretty consistent with their lamb tip growths ..... (which was why I had a hard time at first adjusting to bighorn lamb tip growth rates). I do not doubt there are exceptions with genetics and food resources to get 5-6 inches of lamb tip growths like a bighorn.

[Kody94]

I've had the opportunity to observe a lot of Stone's sheep (every day actually - for months..... once for 2 months and another time for 5.5 months straight - spring through fall - not counting hunting trips stone's) and I havn't seen the variety as you describe. Stone's are pretty consistent with their lamb tip growths ..... (which was why I had a hard time at first adjusting to bighorn lamb tip growth rates). I do not doubt there are exceptions with genetics and food resources to get 5-6 inches of lamb tip growths like a bighorn.

I do know you have spent a lot of time observing stone's first hand, and defer to your significantly greater experience there. My observations of Stone sheep horn growth are 95% attributed to scrutinizing horns from dead rams, with a minor amount of direct observation while hunting, and traveling (my family mostly resides in Whitehorse, so you can connect the dots :-) ). So, its just a very loose theory, with a relatively limited sample size of data (how many horns can a guy have observed in 15 or so years?). :D

Cheers!

[BCrams]

I do know you have spent a lot of time observing stone's first hand, and defer to your significantly greater experience there. My observations of Stone sheep horn growth are 95% attributed to scrutinizing horns from dead rams, with a minor amount of direct observation while huntin:-)g, and traveling (my family mostly resides in Whitehorse, so you can connect the dots ). So, its just a very loose theory, with a relatively limited sample size of data (how many horns can a guy have observed in 15 or so years?). :D

Cheers!

I agree - most have been from handling harvested rams as well! Just no bighorns! :???: I'm learning all the time and I am quite open to anyone pointing something out I may not know! I hear even a couple veteran ministry bio's had their eyes opened with the stone's vs bighorns head to head.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The lamb tip is tough to tell from the photo. Based on experience and seeing how the growth pattern is consistent, I personally have a hard time seeing excellent growth for lamb tip and then successive shorter growth periods. I would say its just the genetics of this ram. (unless I see the horns in my hands and the tips better).

Based on the photo, I call 11 (or 11.5 as I do it) years old but can reserve judgement unless horns are in my hands. Just take the numbers SSSter drew up on the picture and put the 1 about an inch from the tip and then 2, 3, and 4 on ...

I have no doubt the ram SSSter has good lamb tips but it also has corresponding growth rates in successive years to go with it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/IMGP0985.jpg

He may not have had some great growth years early on but it sure looks like he held his own in the last couple of years.

One thing that might account for the poor growth the one year.....Some of you may remember Jean Carey's presentation on Yulon Dall sheep where she linked poor lamb survival (and subsequently poor ram numbers 8 years later), poor horn growth, lower average age of harvested ram...all to cold Pacific currents which occur "roughly" evey 10 years. These cold currents result in a cold, wet , late spring(just like this years'). When this cold cycle occurs during some better growth years (typically a ram's second and third years) we end up with smaller rams......I would imagine that this study could apply to our northern BC sheep as well?

He's a nice ram Bud!! I have a couple of friends that have been fooled by those stuby-faced, small bodies rams.
They still look good!

SSS

[boxhitch]

One thing that might account for the poor growth the one year.....Some of you may remember Jean Carey's presentation on Yulon Dall sheep where she linked poor lamb survival (and subsequently poor ram numbers 8 years later), poor horn growth, lower average age of harvested ram...all to cold Pacific currents which occur "roughly" evey 10 years. These cold currents result in a cold, wet , late spring(just like this years'). When this cold cycle occurs during some better growth years (typically a ram's second and third years) we end up with smaller rams......I would imagine that this study could apply to our northern BC sheep as well?


Eggzackery. The chance of a lamb having a couple tough years is far greater than the idea of a 4" lamb tip. I think those that appear to have long first/second year growth have actually another year hidden in there, due to poor conditions. On this one that idea matches with the type of growth in following years too.
But the lack of development has been good to this guy in the long run. He got through the period of highest natural mortality, to become an old phart.

[GoatGuy]

One thing that might account for the poor growth the one year.....Some of you may remember Jean Carey's presentation on Yulon Dall sheep where she linked poor lamb survival (and subsequently poor ram numbers 8 years later), poor horn growth, lower average age of harvested ram...all to cold Pacific currents which occur "roughly" evey 10 years. These cold currents result in a cold, wet , late spring(just like this years'). When this cold cycle occurs during some better growth years (typically a ram's second and third years) we end up with smaller rams......I would imagine that this study could apply to our northern BC sheep as well?



If we kept better stats and had CI data and wx data and knew the year shot this would be easy to identify. It's all in the data.

[Kody94]

Eggzackery. The chance of a lamb having a couple tough years is far greater than the idea of a 4" lamb tip. I think those that appear to have long first/second year growth have actually another year hidden in there, due to poor conditions. On this one that idea matches with the type of growth in following years too.
But the lack of development has been good to this guy in the long run. He got through the period of highest natural mortality, to become an old phart.

I don't discount it, but the idea of only 4" of growth in two years is a tough one to digest. Same with only 8 or 9" in 3 years (which is all this one would have)....especially when you consider the actually mass of horn being grown in those years. Would have to be pretty poor conditions...or else the lambs would have to take up smoking and drinking coffee to stunt their growth like that. ;)

Would be interesting to try to correlate the weather data and CI data, if it was possible. Something for a grad student to look at maybe...

Cheers!

[boxhitch]

Would be interesting to try to correlate the weather data and CI data, if it was possible. Something for a grad student to look at maybeThis has been done in alaska, but I can't find it in print for the life of me. Maybe buried in 'Jhost' or what ever the name is for that techy site.

Weather stat and history should be available for Toad River ? Dease ?

[boxhitch]

Same with only 8 or 9" in 3 years (which is all this one would have)...
As mentioned this ram was a dwarf IIRC?

[6616]

I have read (Yukon research) that rams with above average horn growth in their early years often don't live as long as rams with normal early horn growth rates. Would that not conversely mean that a ram like this with poor early growth might have a better chance of living to 11 or 12 years old like it appears this ram has?

[GoatGuy]

This has been done in alaska, but I can't find it in print for the life of me. Maybe buried in 'Jhost' or what ever the name is for that techy site.

Weather stat and history should be available for Toad River ? Dease ?

Alaska and the YK. I was just looking at one 2 weeks ago at a buddy's place but I can't find anything on this computer either.

Really, you don't have to look past the CI data to compare years. If a person put the database together you could even do it with excel to measure segment growth.

Wx history is available as well as snow depth. That's how we get the WSI. Environment Canada has all that stuff.

[GoatGuy]

Eggzackery. The chance of a lamb having a couple tough years is far greater than the idea of a 4" lamb tip. I think those that appear to have long first/second year growth have actually another year hidden in there, due to poor conditions. On this one that idea matches with the type of growth in following years too.
But the lack of development has been good to this guy in the long run. He got through the period of highest natural mortality, to become an old phart.

One of the papers correlate exceptional 1st and 2nd year weather & growth to monster rams and # of legal rams harvested. Of course genetics plays a big part; maybe what I should have said is rams which are genetically pre-disposed to big horns are able to turn into monsters when they're 1st and 2nd years are good.

As far as I know the 2nd annuli (2 1/2 yrs old :smile:) is the first one that 'sticks out'.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If we kept better stats and had CI data and wx data and knew the year shot this would be easy to identify. It's all in the data.

That's exactly what Jean did. Decades of data lying there through CI's and she finally put it all together. No new study needed.... just some data analysis.

SSS

[boxhitch]

Sheep or goat, if they don't get the length in the first 3-4 yrs, they will never add up to anything.

[boxhitch]

Really, you don't have to look past the CI data to compare years.
Really ? I would like to put that to the test. Where can I get a copy of all the CI data ?


As far as I know the 2nd annuli (2 1/2 yrs old :smile:) is the first one that 'sticks out'.
For me, the Third (associated with the 3rd rut/winter/birthday) is the obvious one. The Second is almost buff smooth.

[boxhitch]

I have read (Yukon research) that rams with above average horn growth in their early years often don't live as long as rams with normal early horn growth rates. Would that not conversely mean that a ram like this with poor early growth might have a better chance of living to 11 or 12 years old like it appears this ram has?The converse may be true, but would depend entirely on the reasons.
Does extra growth indicate Hyper-activity ? Hype-Metabolism ? Hyper-sex drive ? Causing early health/heart troubles ?
Highest natural mortality is in 7-8 yr olds, winter die-off due to poor body condition after the rut.
Maybe the short-growth 12 yr olds are not in the breeding/fighting mix ? Sterile ?
IHNFI

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Really ? I would like to put that to the test. Where can I get a copy of all the CI data ?
For me, the Third (associated with the 3rd rut/winter/birthday) is the obvious one. The Second is almost buff smooth.

It seems to me that this is where Thinhorns differ from bighorns.......third annuli(2 1/2-3) stands out the most(or should I say first prominent annuli) on thinhorns and the second (1 1/2-2) stands out the most on bighorns?? No??

SSS

[budismyhorse]

I can't really speak of the weather or climate data, but this sheep lived in some rough, unforgiving terrain. Picking them out of the rocks was the hardest part, they didn't spend much time laying in the grass.

As well, with him being kind of small, he would have had to work twice as hard to do anything in his life. Fighting with larger rams for territory, ewes and feed would have meant he spend more energy then most sheep resulting in less energy offered to horn growth. What he has is consistent growth in my opinion. Be it short growth or poor it is consistent.

Enter the CI. By no means am I bashing this fella, I am just relaying this part of the story as it relates to the debate about horn growth and sheep aging. In fact, he didn't really spend much time and we didn't discuss it much, it was way over the nose and over 8 so I didn't need the headache. I think, if he spent more time looking at it, things would have changed. Oh yeah, it was NOT the same CI that got Mark4's ram either, but he is in Region 4.

Firstly, there is almost no indication on the horn of a small lamb tip, therefore the only ring he would support is SSSSters lamb tip ring. "I can't see a "ring", so I can't assume there is one". Are there situations where lamb tip rings don't form a defined dark line? Not for me to answer.

The next disputed ring was right above the base, he would not give him a ring next to the base and claimed what I thought was a ring was merely a false annuli that this ram grows each year. I argued that this would mean he grew more in his last year of life, contrary to most rams growth patterns (compounded by the fact that I ended that growth several months early?!). I felt it was obvious and goes right around his horn, cracking as well. He really just tried to pattern the false annuli.

Anyways, he inspected it as a 9 year old ram. But means his first and last year of life he had exceptional growth, relative to all his other years.

I don’t know enough about this to be certain, but am starting to understand what you have to consider. Given that he was a small lamb, living in a rocky nightmare, is it possible he just didn’t form a ring in his first winter?

I don't know what typical ewe to lamb ratios are up north, but we saw lots of ewes and very few lambs in that spot.

I think this guy was a scrapper, and he battled right up to the end. We have great video of him kicking and lip-curling a banana head that was bedded in his favorite spot. When he finally got the small ram to stand up, he bashed him with horns for good measure and bedded in that exact spot, it was hilarious. After the shot(s), I swear I heard that small ram snicker as he fled the basin. ya grumpy old fart.

the photo is of my partner trying to figure out how we are going to get off this bench with a load. We used 4 pts of contact and helped each other by pulling and pushing to climb up, which turned out to be the easy part.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/What_now_resize.jpg

[Kody94]

Thanks for the details Bud. As I said above, its a cool ram....the story confirms that. Maybe he had a bit of a small-guy complex? :)

Your CI missed the boat on the last ring for sure...that one is pretty obvious and is visible on both horns.

Your ram is AT LEAST 10.5, IMHO. The lamb-tip might very well be where BCRams has it, which would make it 11.5. I am not totally convinced yet though. :)

[BCrams]

I can't really speak of the weather or climate data, but this sheep lived in some rough, unforgiving terrain. Picking them out of the rocks was the hardest part, they didn't spend much time laying in the grass.

Awesome country!

Definatly a contributor to horn growth rates etc.

Firstly, there is almost no indication on the horn of a small lamb tip, therefore the only ring he would support is SSSSters lamb tip ring. "I can't see a "ring", so I can't assume there is one". Are there situations where lamb tip rings don't form a defined dark line? Not for me to answer.

Stone's sheep lamb tip 'nubs' often do not show a 'ring'. Often a very subtle nub.

The next disputed ring was right above the base, he would not give him a ring next to the base and claimed what I thought was a ring was merely a false annuli that this ram grows each year. I argued that this would mean he grew more in his last year of life, contrary to most rams growth patterns (compounded by the fact that I ended that growth several months early?!).

CI should have considered this but perhaps he / she does not understand horn growths too well.

I don’t know enough about this to be certain, but am starting to understand what you have to consider. Given that he was a small lamb, living in a rocky nightmare, is it possible he just didn’t form a ring in his first winter?

As mentioned above - it often does not show up as a 'ring'.


..........

BTW - very similar country where I took my ram. It was a mature but not great on horn growth. Very similar to yours.

[budismyhorse]

I guess it doesn't matter too much since all options are above legal status....however, what if we were talking about a few rings taken off that made it 7? what then?

Alrighty SSSSter, lets see the ol' 46'er of yours, I've seen Bill's pic in his shop, and with that pedestal, it begs to be admired. .....but at least, we can see these lamb tips you speak of.

[GoatGuy]

Really ? I would like to put that to the test. Where can I get a copy of all the CI data ?

Like samsquatches CI data is behind every bush. :wink:



For me, the Third (associated with the 3rd rut/winter/birthday) is the obvious one. The Second is almost buff smooth.


Really? Maybe it's different with rockies? The two ring is usually very prominent.

[6616]

I argued that this would mean he grew more in his last year of life, contrary to most rams growth patterns (compounded by the fact that I ended that growth several months early?!). I felt it was obvious and goes right around his horn, cracking as well. He really just tried to pattern the false annuli.

Good point about the amount of growth in his final year. Those of us who are more used to seeing bighorns are seeing more growth because they're shot later in the year. Your's had many fewer weeks to grow horn being shot in August.

[6616]

Judging from looking at my own dead rams and all the discussion and pictures we've looked at recently, I believe with bighorns the first clearly defined grooved annulus is normally the second one and will be as much as 10 to 16 inches from the tip.

With Thinhorns I believe both the first and second annuli can be just bumps or very smooth and the first one clearly defined by a groove is usually the third one. The first one or lamb tip annulus is at times very diifficult to see and sometimes almost invisible and in most cases is less then 2 inches from an unbroomed tip.

If most of you agree, and this is in fact correct, there's probably a lot of bighorn rams out there that have been aged one year too old and a lot of Stone's that have been aged one year too young. As Greg said, even a lot of biologists are surprized by these findings and many may not buy into our opinions.

Of course "usually" always means there are exceptions.

[Kody94]

As promised, here are pics of what I believe is the lamb-tip on my ram..."front" and "back". You can see where it looks as though it is breaking off, and you can see the horn underneath which is where my theory above comes from. You can see the line on the backside quite clearly as well. Next is a picture of the "short" side, where the lamb-tip has broken off. Beyond the "nub" is what I believe was horn underneath the lamb-tip.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Staggerino/RAM001-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Staggerino/RAM002-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v230/Staggerino/RAM003-1.jpg

[6616]

It certainly does appear that you have a +4" lamb tip there Chris. Are the subsequent years growth above normal as well? How big and how old is this ram?

Edit: I'm guessing this is a very good, possibly an exceptionally good ram.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

It's certainly possible....afterall..how many of the lamb rams that have been studied have gone on to become a 46" legend??8)

SSS

[Kody94]

It certainly does appear that you have a +4" lamb tip there Chris. Are the subsequent years growth above normal as well? How big and how old is this ram?

Edit: I'm guessing this is a very good, possibly an exceptionally good ram.

The subsequent years aren't really very abnormal (you can see the second year of growth by the ring on the bottom of the picture fo the short side, and you can see a ring or two in the background). I figger its 10.5 yo. Its quite light, circumference-wise, and doesn't make "the" book. Its pretty exceptional to me though. :)

As always I hesitate to draw attention to it, but I think there might be a lesson in the lamb-tip and broken off side. Maybe not though.....??

[budismyhorse]

Hard to argue with ya Chris. I agree with SSS, your ram may be (IS) in a class of its own. There are exceptions to every rule!

[6616]

The subsequent years aren't really very abnormal (you can see the second year of growth by the ring on the bottom of the picture fo the short side, and you can see a ring or two in the background). I figger its 10.5 yo. Its quite light, circumference-wise, and doesn't make "the" book. Its pretty exceptional to me though. :)

As always I hesitate to draw attention to it, but I think there might be a lesson in the lamb-tip and broken off side. Maybe not though.....??

I would love to see a photo of it.

[6616]

It seems to me that this is where Thinhorns differ from bighorns.......third annuli(2 1/2-3) stands out the most(or should I say first prominent annuli) on thinhorns and the second (1 1/2-2) stands out the most on bighorns?? No??

SSS

Yes. I agree with this statement as being correct as a generic rule of thumb.

As always with many wildlife related so called facts, there are often exceptions to the rule.

[Kody94]

I would love to see a photo of it.

Check your PM's.