Four Point Mulie...killed by........?

[ElkMasterC]

Here's a mystery.

Found this guy this past week whilst out hunting for his brethren.

Ravens attracted me to the site.

Lots of coyote tracks, and ravens and Whiskey Jacks.

Head was slightly covered in dirt and leaves, but not a great amount (I was thinking "Cat").

More than half the hide was there, no bullet holes, no shattered ribs, no marks on coat other than a little gash under a front leg. No tooth marks on throat or muzzle.

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/DSC01749.jpg

When I found him, the hinds, backs straps and innards all gone. No tracks of cougars or wolves. Or humans. No one else hunts up there, it's pretty private. I believe he was on the downside of his years. Big Roman nose, and heavy beams, but short tines. (reminded me of a big BT, but this is N of Cache Ck)

I thought two things:

1) La Chupacabra OR:

2) Someone way down the mountain gut shot it, and it took off, and finally succumbed. I hiked down from 1800 m on top, but the highway was down the far side, and there's fields there, where I've seen folks out huntin'.
I found this guy at about 1700 m elevation.


http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/DSC01748.jpg

My friend the rancher thought it might be wolves, since they can rip the arse end out of a deer, and not rip up the throat, but there were no tracks, and what the wolves didn't finish, the coyotes would have more quickly. There was still lotsa meat on it.

Any other thoughts??

I'm curious if anyone had any other good ideas. I'll look at the teeth when I go back...maybe the head will be thawed..lol


http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/DSC01752-1.jpg



..not long after, I saw these little guys......

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/RamsSinger-1.jpg




.....but that's another story.... ;-)

[quadrakid]

too many late nights out boozin and druggin with the ladies. old bucky partied to hard this rut! who knows? with no obvious cause of death it could be one of many scenarios. too bad ,he could of been a contender.

[Allen50]

may have been oldage after a big fight, he was all tired out, and something got him,, who knows,,, neet pic thoe,,

[ElkMasterC]

Yeahhhh...no scars tho.
I coulda actually caped him out for a shoulder mount, the hide was that good. Nice, thick winter fur, and a thick Rutted out neck.
Shame, really, he was a handsome animal.

[hunter1947]

My thoughts are is that someone wounded this deer and it died where you found it.

[knighthunter]

Nice buck anyways.

[kennyj]

Nice find.I would have hauled it home.Nice rams too!
kenny

[huntwriter]

Maybe he just died of old age. Many older bucks die after the rut. Chasing females day and night and eating next to nothing takes a toll on their body.

Nice looking buck. I would have taken the horns home.

[Hoytster]

...lol...funny I was thinking el Chupacabra myself.......darn X-Files..

[bruin]

Was there tufts of hair pulled out and lying all over, because I'm pretty sure that's a cat.

[wsm]

battleship , sebastian FSR ?

[doubled]

I am thinking cat too. Animals will USUALLY go downhill or sideways if seriously wounded or gut shot, NOT up hill. If there is dirt on it, then there was a big animal there at one point.

[tooty]

He could of got gut gored by another buck.Seen that on some bull elk down here before.

[ElkMasterC]

Maybe he just died of old age. Many older bucks die after the rut. Chasing females day and night and eating next to nothing takes a toll on their body.
Nice looking buck. I would have taken the horns home.

Quite possible, but he had tons of meat on the neck, and a lovely thick healthy coat. There were even scraps of fat still on the inside of the hide for the whiskey jacks.



...lol...funny I was thinking el Chupacabra myself.......darn X-Files..

Good, so I'm not alone there.. ;-)


Was there tufts of hair pulled out and lying all over, because I'm pretty sure that's a cat. Yes, but small ones that could even be ravens or Yoties. The debris on the face made me clutch my trusty Husky a little tighter, but there were no tracks (1/2" fresh powder 2 days before), and I thought they always suffocated by the throat. Possible though, I'll grant you that.


battleship , sebastian FSR ? Nope.....why, are ya missing one? ;-)


I am thinking cat too. Animals will USUALLY go downhill or sideways if seriously wounded or gut shot, NOT up hill. If there is dirt on it, then there was a big animal there at one point.
Agreed, but I've seen gut shot, or brisket shot critters go up. I once made a bad bow shot on a whitie that went straight up, trailing blood all over.
This guy was otherwise in pretty damn fine shape, (Other than missing a pulse and 90 lbs of meat, that is) so maybe he wandered uphill over a few days, and the Yotes caught up. The lack of any hide damage, and the tiny bit of debris on the face makes me not wanna go with "Cat" as my final answer.....
I know there WERE wolves in the area the day before, but the tracks didn't come within a 1/2 mile of this buck.
I guess we'll never know. :-(

Thanks for all the posts, guys!

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/DSC01765.jpg

"mmmm...frozen neck meat"

[Rattler]

I'm thinking cat as well. Any sign of a struggle near the site or trees scratched up? Cougars will often scratch a tree near their kills.

[ElkMasterC]

Not that I saw, no. No struggle, no prints, no scat, no scratching.
Also, like I said, no visible marks on what there was of hide.

Hmmmm...what would Holmes do?

[ElkMasterC]

Further to this, is it legal to keep the head?

I would think so, as it's not a human kill (and technically, the one that wounded and lost it should cut his tag), but I understand that only cast antlers are legal to keep. On a head, this is a "part of an animal".

Opinions, please.

There's no shortage of opinions here, is there? lol

[Will]

There's no shortage of opinions here, is there? lol
Nope certainly not.
For my two bits I'd rule out a cat....carcus was left too exposed. They usually won't go far until there's not much left either.

Wolves....I'd say no as well.....there'd be hair all over the place. You wouldn't find that much left either if anything at all but then we're just guessing right.

Most likely it croaked from it's own exersions rutting etc not uncommon for weaker animals to perish during this time.

The birds alone will pick a carcus clean if given enough time.
When you get the head cleaned up I'd like to see it;)

[huntwriter]

I am thinking cat too. Animals will USUALLY go downhill or sideways if seriously wounded or gut shot, NOT up hill. If there is dirt on it, then there was a big animal there at one point.

That’s a bit of a myth. Hurt animals go anywhere they want, over hill and dale, even across a body of water. Wherever their feet carry them as long it is away from the scene. At least that is what I have experienced over many years of guiding and hunting.

[reaper1]

Are you allowed to take things like that out of the bush legally.

[elkdom]

in order to be in lawfull possession of wildlife parts,you must either have a cancelled tag for that species, that particular animal or a permit issued by the MOE, after determining if no "foul play" can be proven the MOE may upon thier discretion issue a possession permit, or they may choose to sieze the head/antlers and send them to auction,,,

[ElkMasterC]

in order to be in lawfull possession of wildlife parts,you must either have a cancelled tag for that species, that particular animal or a permit issued by the MOE, after determining if no "foul play" can be proven the MOE may upon thier discretion issue a possession permit, or they may choose to sieze the head/antlers and send them to auction,,,

Well, if they don't bother folks with truckloads of Elk cows, I wonder if they'd follow up on a found item.
Anyone have direct experience in this?
No quotes, just the facts, Ma'am.

[elkdom]

Well, if they don't bother folks with truckloads of Elk cows, I wonder if they'd follow up on a found item.
Anyone have direct experience in this?
No quotes, just the facts, Ma'am.

after more than 20 years with a BC guide license I am talking from direct experience, unless you are in possession of a permit or a cancelled tag, it is not legally yours, antler sheds your Ok to possess without permit, but even that is not allowed if antlers come from a PARK, its pretty clear in the BC regs, but you can phone MOE and check it out , probably best if you do that before marching in with the muley head and telling them your story anyway,,, If i'm wrong you can spank me!

[boxhitch]

I wonder if they'd follow up on a found item.
Picture this- you r driving out of the bush, with a fresh rack from a small two-pointer onboard,
What questions would be going through the CO's mind ?
Would/should he believe your story ?

OK now the rack is a 190 class hog. Same questions ?

Several rules, including edible portions, transporting without documents, failure to cancel tags, possibly out of season? , etc

"I found it" sounds pretty lame.

[Gateholio]

Take pics of the carcass, write a note of your intentions to submit for a permit...

Take to CO's, get permit.

I mean really- Peopel have picked up dead owls and they are "techically" in violation until they get permit. Give the CO's some credit- If you have some pics of the carcass and some documentation, and are up front about it...You have a good case.

[reaper1]

Thanks Guy's. I seen in the regs about road kill but not cat kills etc. This year I actually had to finish a 4+4 that was hit by a truck in front of us. It was dark when I did this and I called a C.O. when I got into cell range 20 minutes later. Let him know what happened and location. He thanked me for doing the right thing ethically. I went out a couple days later out of curiousity and the rack had been taken, this animal was not visable from the highway when I was done.

[elkdom]

Take pics of the carcass, write a note of your intentions to submit for a permit...

Take to CO's, get permit.

I mean really- Peopel have picked up dead owls and they are "techically" in violation until they get permit. Give the CO's some credit- If you have some pics of the carcass and some documentation, and are up front about it...You have a good case.

Agee'd, road kill is differnt, but with story of deer that shows "no evidence of death", partially eatin by preditors and scavengers there is a good chance if the mule deer head in this thread shows up at the MOE office it will be seized and sent to the laboritory for testing of CWD traces or other medical reasons why it died, the story goes there isnt much chance of hunters being where the deer carcass was located,the deer appeared healthy, so that indicates either foul play or disease that would take down a buck! so I think if the MOE gets thier hands on the deer its gonna get siezed, If it turns out the deer died of CWD, then the MOE, myself and anyone else with an ounce of brains would want it discovered ASAP, so measures could be taken to contain a possible epidemic, as for FINDING dead big game animals, the best policy is to leave them to hell alone, maybe take pics from a safe distance, avoiding disturbing the carcass, and at the SOONEST available time ,then I report the "Species,the Location and the Time" that I located the dead big game animal, tampering with anything at such scene is detroying evidence that may convict a poacher!

[BCrams]

partially eatin by preditors

What predator sign did you see if it was partially eaten by predatorss. Photo's look like something was eating the carcass.

I have photo's of a wolf kill I came upon that looks identical to the carcass you have.

[elkdom]

What predator sign did you see if it was partially eaten by predatorss. Photo's look like something was eating the carcass.

I have photo's of a wolf kill I came upon that looks identical to the carcass you have.
first off these are not my pics or my post,,, I only replied to questions about keeping the deer parts by others,,,,
It is quite obvious the deer was not partially eatin by VEGETARIANS! lol seems no BITE marks on neck or claw marks so not likely a cougar, I also say likely a wolf, a lone wolf unlikely take down buck if buck was healthy, several wolves and the deer would be completely consumed in one night, but??? no tracks no scat, and yoties make hell of a mess, if deer was Sick or Ingured then anything is possible,,,,,,,,but a deer with CWD is much like a cripple as for manuverability so then anything may catch him easily,,,,

as for what killed the deer to begin with, hard to say, it may have died from natural causes, disease, preditors, accident of some kind, without seeing it in person, it's all speculation, better left for the MOE to determine!

[ElkMasterC]

Allrighty, just catchin up here. All I observed at the site is in my first post, pretty much, and CWD is not an issue. (How did we get over there? lol)
I could also wait to see if I cancel my tag (I haven't found a Mulie I like enough to kill yet) and just cancel it at the end of the season , and pick it up. Ba-Da-Bing, all legal.

I know what the regs say, as stated, but the posts don't outline any specific cases. Technically jaywalking and spitting on the sidewalk are illegal, but not too many citations get written. I'm sure we all know folks with picked-up parts in their homes or cottages. Maybe even some folks on this site **stage wink**


If I fill my tag the delicious, meaty way I'll look into what gates suggested.

I'll take a raincheck on the spanking, lol.

[ElkMasterC]

without seeing it in person, it's all speculation, better left for the MOE to determine!

I hope their boys are in shape..... hehehehe

[BCrams]

The wolf kill I found was off a healthy 4 pt buck as well. The buck was on the field and it was a dusting of snow that put things together. I saw a slight tuff of deer hair and a speck of blood .... and 2 sets of wolf tracks ( I had also seen these 2 wolves the night before about a mile from the kill location).

The wolves were nipping on the hinds ... effectivly hamstrung the buck and by tracking the deer / wolves - the buck made it about 3/4 of a mile while the 2 wolves kept at it ... the last 100 or so meters was pretty gruesome and I found the kill .... only hours fresh. They only ate the insides and part of the hinds etc just like the photo you took and left the rest.




first off these are not my pics or my post,,, I only replied to questions about keeping the deer parts by others,,,,
It is quite obvious the deer was not partially eatin by VEGETARIANS! lol seems no BITE marks on neck or claw marks so not likely a cougar, I also say likely a wolf, a lone wolf unlikely take down buck if buck was healthy, several wolves and the deer would be completely consumed in one night, but??? no tracks no scat, and yoties make hell of a mess, if deer was Sick or Ingured then anything is possible,,,,,,,,but a deer with CWD is much like a cripple as for manuverability so then anything may catch him easily,,,,

as for what killed the deer to begin with, hard to say, it may have died from natural causes, disease, preditors, accident of some kind, without seeing it in person, it's all speculation, better left for the MOE to determine!

[elkdom]

Allrighty, just catchin up here. All I observed at the site is in my first post, pretty much, and CWD is not an issue. (How did we get over there? lol)
I could also wait to see if I cancel my tag (I haven't found a Mulie I like enough to kill yet) and just cancel it at the end of the season , and pick it up. Ba-Da-Bing, all legal.

I know what the regs say, as stated, but the posts don't outline any specific cases. Technically jaywalking and spitting on the sidewalk are illegal, but not too many citations get written. I'm sure we all know folks with picked-up parts in their homes or cottages. Maybe even some folks on this site **stage wink**


If I fill my tag the delicious, meaty way I'll look into what gates suggested.

I'll take a raincheck on the spanking, lol.

What ever floats your boat, if you want to falsify your deer tag in order to claim some dead deer you found in the bush, then go for it, I really dont give
a damm but by your own actions of cutting off the head then posting a story I think I pretty much understand what you have planned, I'd bet you that deer head with antlers is tied up high in a tree for the mag-pies and ravens to clean out! then you return with a cancelled tag at a later date! very interesting I must say!

[Fixit]

based purely on my personal thoughts and ethics, without anyknowledge of the law in this case,

id say keep the head/rack if you want. if nothing illegal has been done by said party to kill animal, then i dont see the harm done, by keeping it.

i like the pict of the whisky jack!

[humble hunter]

What ever floats your boat, if you want to falsify your deer tag in order to claim some dead deer you found in the bush, then go for it, I really dont give
a damm but by your own actions of cutting off the head then posting a story I think I pretty much understand what you have planned, I'd bet you that deer head with antlers is tied up high in a tree for the mag-pies and ravens to clean out! then you return with a cancelled tag at a later date! very interesting I must say!

If your thinking he is going to claim that he shot the buck, he has no need to. First, none of us (his buddies)would let him get away with it and second he has nicer racks than that on his wall. That is a small buck for the area anyways.

[ElkMasterC]

What ever floats your boat, if you want to falsify your deer tag in order to claim some dead deer you found in the bush, then go for it, I really dont give
a damm but by your own actions of cutting off the head then posting a story I think I pretty much understand what you have planned, I'd bet you that deer head with antlers is tied up high in a tree for the mag-pies and ravens to clean out! then you return with a cancelled tag at a later date! very interesting I must say!


Falsify? WTF? Have you been following this thread?

I've been pretty honest about what I saw , and what happened.

Most guys woulda just taken the head and said nothing. At least I'm trying to be up front about it. I'll also be calling the CO's if I want to go back and get the antlers to inquire about a permit, as previously stated.
IF they're still there,
and IF I don't fill my tags.
If you see a problem with this, please let me know. I don't and it seems most others don't either.
Geez.....

Have a great evening.

[elkdom]

[QUOTE=ElkMasterC;368692]Allrighty, just catchin up here. All I observed at the site is in my first post, pretty much, and CWD is not an issue. (How did we get over there? lol)
I could also wait to see if I cancel my tag (I haven't found a Mulie I like enough to kill yet) and just cancel it at the end of the season , and pick it up. Ba-Da-Bing, all legal.



.as I understand in what you stated above, your saying it is legal/permissible by law to cancel a species tag for something you you did not harvest in order to claim the so called "found buck" well I will call BULLSHIT on that if you figure that is LEGAL, you have things a bit mixed up as far as what is proper use of a species licence! and you may get away with it and you may not, and besides that, the buck you "found" is hardly worth the effort,
so it appears the thread went from "found buck" to a "claimed buck" issue ! and the truth is that the buck remains the property of the "CROWN", MOE, no matter where it is at this time.

[ElkMasterC]

"the so-called found buck"?
Don't insult me, Pal, unless it's to my face.
You'd better be REAL careful what you say to me.

On another note, everyone I have talked to/posted with is of the opinion you can legally claim the head if you cut a tag for that species.
If you have an objective opinion about this, and not the stuff you've been recently posting, let me know. If I didn't care about the law, I wouldn't have taken photos and asked questions.
You started out strong, then faded.....what happened there?
Solid start, weak finish.

[elkdom]

"the so-called found buck"?
Don't insult me, Pal, unless it's to my face.
You'd better be REAL careful what you say to me.

On another note, everyone I have talked to/posted with is of the opinion you can legally claim the head if you cut a tag for that species.
If you have an objective opinion about this, and not the stuff you've been recently posting, let me know. If I didn't care about the law, I wouldn't have taken photos and asked questions.
You started out strong, then faded.....what happened there?
Solid start, weak finish.

as for insulting you, it han't been my intention, if you wish to think so,
thats no DOO DAH off my rear end, as for cancelling tags for big game you didnt harvest, sorry! that is not correct or lawfull, any one may apply for permit as I have already mentioned, a for your threats about
QUOTE> "You'd better be REAL careful what you say to me." that I will take witha grain of salt, people who threaten others tend to over rate themselves,,,

[ElkMasterC]

I'm pretty much done talking to you, Sparky.

I hope this was an aberration of sorts, on your part.

Have a lovely Xmas.

[elkdom]

I'm pretty much done talking to you, Sparky.

I hope this was an aberration of sorts, on your part.

Have a lovely Xmas.


seems you have kept your word! you KILLED your own thread,

Merry Christmas to you also!

am I allowed to say that on here???? lol

[Gateholio]

In hindsight...

Cancelling your tag and recovering head isn't legal, as far as I know.

Your best bet is to call local CO's and tell them what you found, and can you keep the antlers.

And gentlemen- Please try to play nice.

[hunter1947]

I was hunting for deer with my xbow earlier this year ,I hit my deer with a bolt ,it got away ,I looked for this deer for 6 days ,I finally found this deer ,I cut my tag and took the antlers off it ,now does this mean it is illegal to do so ????.

Seams like it would be the same if I found a buck in the bush that was not that many days dead and I took the antlers off it ,or in the ditch on the side of the road ???.

[ElkMasterC]

Good question, Hunter '47. I guess I'll find out.

Tell ya what, I'll call anyway. Gates has the right idea, I just go to the source. Maybe a permit is easy to get, or there's another way. Or it's just porkeepine food. Whatever. IF I get back up there this year, I wanna do so with a clean conscience.

And you must admit, Gatehouse, I was pretty restrained after an unprovoked attack, and virtually being called a poacher. Despite the fact that I'm going outta my way to be totally transparent about this. I thought I was quite nice. Even got a "Merry Xmas" outta me. ;-)

Maybe I'm maturing. (YIKES!! That's a scary thought)

:-)

[longhairmtnman]

No tooth marks on throat or muzzle.

Any other thoughts??



Cougar goes for throat/neck for the most part. I'd say wolves, as they go for the hind end. Nice find no matter who you talk to. Mid. november we found 5 deer kills within 2k of each other, all different age kills. It was in an area near where you describe, and contains an overly healthy # of wolves. Btw, Co's can smell b.s. a mile away. I'd let them decide the legalities.
m2cw
Montana.

[ElkMasterC]

Cougar goes for throat/neck for the most part. I'd say wolves, as they go for the hind end. Nice find no matter who you talk to. Mid. november we found 5 deer kills within 2k of each other, all different age kills. It was in an area near where you describe, and contains an overly healthy # of wolves. Btw, Co's can smell b.s. a mile away. I'd let them decide the legalities.
m2cw
Montana.

It seems the whole province has an over-abundance of wolves lately.

My friend the rancher is going to make a project out of thinning the herd this winter, as it were. I hope to help him as much as I can.
Good way to make yourself welcome on ranchers land, BTW, fellow hunters. Shoot a wolf or two first.
I bet you get the keys to the gate, and maybe a Farmer's Daughter's heart. lol