deer season region 7b peace river

[bridger]

just wondering what some of the guys think about the deer and elk seasons in 7b that have been implemented to reduce the deer and elk populaion by 50% in the ag zone. attended a local meeting last nite and seems a lot of people think it is time to slow it down as about 50% of the mule deer have winter killed the last two years.

[KevinB]

Were any numbers reported at that meeting? I'd want to know what the harvest levels and population numbers in the ag zone have been, and what the harvest levels and population numbers are in the remainder of the MU's, before I would want to come up with any opinion. I don't personally have any first-hand knowledge of the situation in the Peace and how or if the ag zone harvest really has much effect on the overall populations.

[ape]

I was up there this year for this season. I can tell you in the area we were in there was no reduction in the deer populations over the last couple of winters. When you can drive down the road before dusk and see 100-200 deer in one field I think there is still room for it. I have yet to hear the farmers complain about the thinned out deer and elk heards.

[elkdom]

as there has not been an official deer/elk/moose survey or organized game numbers count recently, it is only rumour as to how many deer,elk, moose were "winter killed' over the last few winters,
NO MOE in depth SURVEY to date! so its all speculation! and it usually ends up this way,
Guys that can find lots of game, surmize there is lots of game!

Guys that can not find lots of game, surmize they all died last winter!

[ape]

Guys that can find lots of game, surmize there is lots of game!

Guys that can not find lots of game, surmize they all died last winter!

I think I will take this a compliment:smile:

[elkdom]

I think I will take this a compliment:smile:

you welcome lol

I live here, for me first 2 weeks of deer season after nov1st,

39 bull moose, at least 80/90 cows calves

well over 200 elk,all sizes,lots of big bulls still alive

mule deer at least 30 bucks 3 point or more, antlerless who knows, but hundreds

whitetails about the same or more, some Ag areas whities are out numbering mulies about 3 to 1

Grizzly 6 adults,7 cubs, one momma grizz had 3 last years cubs in tow!

black bears 3

wolves 5

wolverine 1

lynx 1

cougar 0, but couple sightings of fresh tracks

fisher 1

river otter 3


I usually hunt an area about 10 miles wide and about 15 miles in length, , my opinon is game numbers in southern 7-20a are good

[7mag700]

as there has not been an official deer/elk/moose survey or organized game numbers count recently, it is only rumour as to how many deer,elk, moose were "winter killed' over the last few winters,
NO MOE in depth SURVEY to date! so its all speculation! and it usually ends up this way,
Guys that can find lots of game, surmize there is lots of game!

Guys that can not find lots of game, surmize they all died last winter!

x2 above lol :biggrin:

I certainly didn't think there would have been much winter kill last year, it was pretty mild and very little snow. I hear there was lots of snow the year before though.

Both of my deer were taken in the ag zone. They're everywhere! Only issue was finding a legal buck - I saw dozens of two-pointers and spikers, but had to work pretty hard to bag my 3-point.

Next year I'll probably take a doe out of 7-20A again if the regs remain the same, but intend to go a little further north for a bigger buck this time.

[mgnm300]

i can't wait to come up in january or febuary ,we have 4 leh tags for any elk. we were up there 2 years ago for the antlerless leh and managed to fill all four. what an awesome time and looking forward to it again!

[lunatic]

Like some others in this area, I have no problem finding game. I do question however, the length of the GOS for 3 pt and up elk and antlerless in the so called "ag zone". Like Elkdom stated, there has been no recent surveys / counts done so this seemed a little drastic to me. I think what should have been done is a short GOS for 3pt and up and antlerless for a year or even two, then re-evaluate. Just like the first two weeks of any size bull moose in this area, we were invaded by hunters from all over the province for this elk season. Don't get me wrong, i'm not one of those "stay in your own area types". I have given good info to many non-local residents. I only question how it will impact the numbers. A number of prime breeders were culled and obviously many of the cows would have been impregnated so this may have a larger impact than we know.....and for how many years? Some of this "ag zone" was a long way from any agricultural areas and then there is still the either sex LEH to come yet.

[ARC]

I received a report by email yesterday "Relationship between weather factors and survival of mule deer fawns in the Peace Region of BC." In it they list annual deer count results since 1991. They follow the same transects every spring counting mule deer. The total number of deer counted in 2005 was 690 and 693 in 2006, that dropped down to 392 in 2007 and 490 in 2008. So overall a fairly substantial reduction.

I am still seeing deer on my trips up north, but nowhere near the numbers I was a few years ago.

[Jetboat]

I own a farm and work full time in the northern part of the Peace agricultural zone. My job (Oil/gas operator) has me driving around daily in the rural areas and farm country. The numbers of mule deer we are seeing are way down from 2 years ago but whitetails seem to be holding their own and increasing in some areas. Elk are doing about the same as ever which is stable to increasing. This year the moose seem to be recovering from the lows we saw last year with a lot of calf recruitment despite the increasing populations (observed) of wolves & black bears. In parts of the agri. zone, grizzlies are plentiful especially in oat crop fields in the fall. These are what we "Joe Average" fellows see daily at work and at home. We also spend a fair amount of time in helicopters (spring-summer-fall) as a lot of our facilities are only accessable by road in the winter months. As an example, at times, I will spend an entire week in good elk country and only see a couple cows and the next week, they are everywhere. The same with moose. Last week I spent several hours flying at low elevations in a helicopter and our moose count (in prime country) was four animals! A few days later, in the same general area, driving along the newly opened winter roads I observed over a dozen in one day. I haven't spent time at my favorite butcher to see what was coming in this year, but between myself and friends I've talked to, we really didn't tag much this year. A couple cow elk were taken along with several moose and a few meat bucks, both whitetail & muley. Although we had the opportunity, not many cow elk & doe deer were taken by the locals I know.

[Creeker]

I have hunted for approx 20 years north of the peace river and have noticed an extreme reduction in that area on the mule deer and moose.

As I do beleive the popualtion of mulies will rebound and the herd should be stronger, just how long will it take?

My issue is with the doe season up there right now. I find it crazy to open up the does there when there really are few left there.
For years we were wondering why the mulie season was so wrong. They reduced to 1 buck in 3 years and no doe season?? Then 1 buck in 2 years. Back when there should have been a very aggressive season (like current). There should have allways been a 3 point season.
Now with the ag pressure up there they opened it up after the bad winter.
Most likely to slow their rebound?

I think the problem was the drought in certian areas before all the snow. I know we had a very dry poor crop that summer which accounted for some more of the kill. The elk did fine as they tend to move where ever.

I dont know really what one could do. I understand that other areas in the ag zone are doing fine.

I moved to another area 40 miles away and focused on a better whitetail buck, I did see deer everyday and a decent number off immature bucks. Just didnt run into the big guy this year.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Still don't understand why it's a 4 pt whitey buck rifle season:?.

SSS

[HD95]

Mule deer numbers appear to be down this year,whitetail seem to be doing alright.My rancher pals tell me two years ago the snow was very deep for a long time.In the spring there were carcasses everywhere.Yotes in large packs lickin up the remainders.We managed to have a good hunt regardless(this year).I think it needs to be closely monitered,the ministry seems slow to react to natural(weather related)die-off.No science here,just an opinion.I believe they've probably achieved the reduction they were looking for....

[whitetailsheds]

Thanks for posting that ARC. I'd say those numbers do reflect generally what has been going on up here.
With that in mind, and seeing a downward trend, it is something to try and understand why harvest rates (GOS and LEH) would be allowed to go up at that time. AND...be allowed to continue when #'s are recovering.
Crazy...just thought of something though...I bet the decision to increase harvest numbers were based on surveys (and not the one ARC has pointed out) flown over Elkdom's hunting spot.
Elkdom, in all matter of confidentiality, I swear not to divulge any inkling of your hunting area. Could you PM me where you hunt?
I'd like to spend some time in there and see for myself these numbers you are seeing.

[Sunny]

look very good a must for me to go next year

[daycort]

I'd like to spend some time in there and see for myself these numbers you are seeing.

Me too. My hunting partners and I hike into some real good deer spots and there is hardly anything there. Not like it was a few years ago.

I have permision in one of the nicest valleys in all the peace country, free run of the land if you will, it used to be like driving from Hudsons Hope to FSJ. This year hardly anything, there was a group of mule deer hanging around the ranchers house about 6 breeding doe's and a decent buck and that was it for mule deer and the white tails same thing just a few with no real mature deer. Between the bad winter 2 years ago and the over whelming number of dogs, are anterless GOS needs to be reconsidered, for now, until we can get are numbers back up to a comfortable carrying capacity and then have a short anterless season so this thing doesn't happen again.

Born and raised in the peace country (farm boy) and have been driving and riding the backroads my whole life 13 years by myself working a and countless miles in the saddle just looking around. I agree with Creeker when the bad die off was the same season as the drought the summer before no grub for deer in the bush, grazing cattle ate it down in my hunting areas bad, there was no grass anywhere and the high amounts of deer died off I think from the lack of grub and maybe to many deer???


SSS, you are right the 4 point rule should be changed to 3 or any buck.

[elkdom]

Thanks for posting that ARC. I'd say those numbers do reflect generally what has been going on up here.
With that in mind, and seeing a downward trend, it is something to try and understand why harvest rates (GOS and LEH) would be allowed to go up at that time. AND...be allowed to continue when #'s are recovering.
Crazy...just thought of something though...I bet the decision to increase harvest numbers were based on surveys (and not the one ARC has pointed out) flown over Elkdom's hunting spot.
Elkdom, in all matter of confidentiality, I swear not to divulge any inkling of your hunting area. Could you PM me where you hunt?
I'd like to spend some time in there and see for myself these numbers you are seeing.

Who was the "consulting firm" that realeased those numbers?? who funded them?? while they were at the MULE deer count, did they notice any moose, elk, or white tails ??,to compare species numbers?? should be easy to count all, since there are only a few left??

Example! I go check out some fields on Tuesday, sunrize, midday and dusk, total count for tuesday about 7 mule deer on six quarter sections of forage!, so Thursday I go back to same forage fields at same times of the day and count a whopping 158 mule deer, in the same fields that a few days before only held 7 mule deer, what "day" should I use as an indication of deer herd population??, WTF?? , I must be very fortunate to personally know where about 50% of the surviving mule deer population still resides in secret!, lmao

490 muley fawns for 2008 in the Peace region, 690 muley fawns in 2005, what a friggin joke, sorry! I know what I see from the areas I hunt,I also take some pics! I dont get my info from some bullshit survey on the internet! and NO I wont show where you can count deer in my hunting mecca, but maybe some one can GOOGLE "mule deer" and come up with the location, lol

[whitetailsheds]

Ok...........

[lunatic]

Aw come on Elkdom ! Share with everyone ! lmao. I don't get to spend nearly as much time as you do in the bush around home due to my job but.....every time i'm home and go riverboating, quadding, sledding, etc I have no problem seeing lots of game. While the inlaws were up the second week of September we saw at least 35 moose, g-bears, black bears, lots of deer and tons of elk. Numbers in the Peace as far as I am concerned are just fine.

[ARC]

Who was the "consulting firm" that realeased those numbers?? who funded them?? while they were at the MULE deer count, did they notice any moose, elk, or white tails ??,to compare species numbers?? should be easy to count all, since there are only a few left??

Example! I go check out some fields on Tuesday, sunrize, midday and dusk, total count for tuesday about 7 mule deer on six quarter sections of forage!, so Thursday I go back to same forage fields at same times of the day and count a whopping 158 mule deer, in the same fields that a few days before only held 7 mule deer, what "day" should I use as an indication of deer herd population??, WTF?? , I must be very fortunate to personally know where about 50% of the surviving mule deer population still resides in secret!, lmao

490 muley fawns for 2008 in the Peace region, 690 muley fawns in 2005, what a friggin joke, sorry! I know what I see from the areas I hunt,I also take some pics! I dont get my info from some bullshit survey on the internet! and NO I wont show where you can count deer in my hunting mecca, but maybe some one can GOOGLE "mule deer" and come up with the location, lol

The report was released by the Fish and Wildlife Branch in FSJ. The numbers I quoted (690, 490, etc), weren't the number of mulie fawns in the Peace region. Every year since 1991 a deer count has been taking place in the spring. It is spread out over approx. 200 km, mainly between FSJ and Hudson's Hope, and just north of FSJ. The numbers I gave were the total number of mule deer observed during the count.

It is possible populations in different areas have faired better.

[elkdom]

from what I have observed over the last 10/15 years, whitetails are becomming more and more invasive, many areas that had only mulies 15 years ago, now are crawling with whities, many areas that previously 10/15 years ago had 5 mule deer to every 1 white tail you would see, now those numbers are reversed, documented from all across north america it is found that white tails are able to "push" out mule deer, so when over population happens as did up until a couple of years, the whitetails will increase, same old problem happening all over again, 4 point rule for white tails and for the first time ever, and long over due, a white tail antlerless GOS "up untill 2008", all 7B white tail does died of old age or road kill, they were un-huntable protected species! unbelievable! the most prevelent Big game species in north america, and BC MOE regulates them almost like they were endangered species! then people wonder why so many deer die in a extreme winter with heavy snow fall??? WHO made efforts to feed the starving deer??? 7B had huge numbers of deer up until 3 years ago, too many for the available feed, here is why the farmers/ranchers had issue with deer, too many, probably about double of what should be up until 3 years ago. and as far as the area between FtSt John and Hudsons Hope, wait till "Site C" hydro electric dam is complete, then do a deer,elk,moose count! think its lonley out there now,??? just come around ckecking for game in about TEN years! there will be much not to talk about then,,,,

[killman]

from what I have observed over the last 10/15 years, whitetails are becomming more and more invasive, many areas that had only mulies 15 years ago, now are crawling with whities, many areas that previously 10/15 years ago had 5 mule deer to every 1 white tail you would see, now those numbers are reversed, documented from all across north america it is found that white tails are able to "push" out mule deer, so when over population happens as did up until a couple of years, the whitetails will increase, same old problem happening all over again, 4 point rule for white tails and for the first time ever, and long over due, a white tail antlerless GOS "up untill 2008", all 7B white tail does died of old age or road kill, they were un-huntable protected species! unbelievable! the most prevelent Big game species in north america, and BC MOE regulates them almost like they were endangered species! then people wonder why so many deer die in a extreme winter with heavy snow fall??? WHO made efforts to feed the starving deer??? 7B had huge numbers of deer up until 3 years ago, too many for the available feed, here is why the farmers/ranchers had issue with deer, too many, probably about double of what should be up until 3 years ago. and as far as the area between FtSt John and Hudsons Hope, wait till "Site C" hydro electric dam is complete, then do a deer,elk,moose count! think its lonley out there now,??? just come around ckecking for game in about TEN years! there will be much not to talk about then,,,,


I agree the whitetail are and will take over.

[BCrams]

I am still scratching my head over the 4 point white-tailed buck restriction......

[6616]

Who was the "consulting firm" that realeased those numbers?? who funded them?? while they were at the MULE deer count, did they notice any moose, elk, or white tails ??,to compare species numbers?? should be easy to count all, since there are only a few left??

Example! I go check out some fields on Tuesday, sunrize, midday and dusk, total count for tuesday about 7 mule deer on six quarter sections of forage!, so Thursday I go back to same forage fields at same times of the day and count a whopping 158 mule deer, in the same fields that a few days before only held 7 mule deer, what "day" should I use as an indication of deer herd population??, WTF?? , I must be very fortunate to personally know where about 50% of the surviving mule deer population still resides in secret!, lmao

490 muley fawns for 2008 in the Peace region, 690 muley fawns in 2005, what a friggin joke, sorry! I know what I see from the areas I hunt,I also take some pics! I dont get my info from some bullshit survey on the internet! and NO I wont show where you can count deer in my hunting mecca, but maybe some one can GOOGLE "mule deer" and come up with the location, lol

I have the report as well. The numbers quoted were not for the whole region, just for the transect line areas (test blocks) which are a small part of the region. The report also stated that white tailed deer and elk were not impacted near as much as the mule deer by the winter die-off..

[whitetailsheds]

6616/ ARC, how did you recieve this report? Mail? E-mail? I guess I could see if it's available down here in Dodge.
Interesting to hear of the whitetail being less impacted. Just from personal observation and hearing from others, that they had been hit pretty good as well.
My whitetail spot reflected that.

[6616]

If anyone wants the report PM me an e-mail address.

Report was authored by Nick Baccante and Bob Woods, F&W Section FSJ.

[6616]

I have the report as well. The numbers quoted were not for the whole region, just for the transect line areas (test blocks) which are a small part of the region. The report also stated that white tailed deer and elk were not impacted near as much as the mule deer by the winter die-off..

It's also important to note that the surveys this report is based on do not represent an attempt to count deer or extrapolate actual population densities, the actual numbers of deer counted is inconsequential. The purpose is merely to determine fawn/does and buck/doe ratios in early spring, and thus the winter survival rates of fawns can be estimated.

[elkdom]

the last 2 spring, summers and fall it is very rare to see a doe without a fawn, most does have 2 fawns and some have 3, as the last 2 winters have been quite normal and have not had heavy snows, feed has been abundant, maybe MOE should pay close attention to other fators such as disease or predation?? also road kill in my area has not seemed to be lacking in numbers much over the last couple of years,,,

[6616]

I am still scratching my head over the 4 point white-tailed buck restriction......

I'm also patiently waiting to see if anyone has an explanation for this......???

[daycort]

just for the transect line areas (test blocks) which are a small part of the region.

I heard from a good source that the volunteers for this count last year didn't stay in htere test blocks and just about everyone decided to count deer in Montney and Rose Prairie.


white tailed deer and elk were not impacted near as much as the mule deer by the winter die-off..

Mule deer numbers 2 summers ago were very high and in highly concetrated areas, thus the competion for feed was fierce.

I think the white tail deer and elk are more likely to move around to find feed, not so residential.

Just my thoughts.

[CanuckShooter]

I'm also patiently waiting to see if anyone has an explanation for this......???

X2.....Why the 4pt whitetail restriction? Unless it has been determined that a WT population is more desireable that a MD one??? Pure speculation or a good guess???

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Does a 4pt whitey reg exist anywhere else in North America??? I know we used to have one in the OK to coincide with a 4pt early muley rifle season(sept 1st-10th) but that was tosssed out years ago.

SSS

[6616]

In the Alberta Peace Block (Zone 8) right next to you guys the buck harvest target for White Tailed Deer (WTD) is 10% of the total population estimate and the doe target is 6% of the population estimate. Target havests are reached by adjusting the "any deer" and 'bucks only" season lengths (no antler point restrictions). They have about 13,000 hunters chasing WTD in the Peace Block with 100,000 hunter days of hunter opportunity. Effort is about 7.5 days per kill. Their WTD population continues to expand. Weather patterns and habitat capability must be very similar or maybe even exactly the same as in 7-33 and 7-20.

What does this tell us...?

Not to be overly critical of BC Fish and Wildlife, Alberta F&W has much better budgets than the BC F&W Branch. They survey deer populations twice in every five year period and they survey habitat once every five uears. Do you guys ever recall a habitat survey being done in Region 7? With more comprehensive data they can be more aggressive in harvest strategies.

[BCrams]

Does a 4pt whitey reg exist anywhere else in North America??? I know we used to have one in the OK to coincide with a 4pt early muley rifle season(sept 1st-10th) but that was tosssed out years ago.

SSS

Missouri has a 4 pt regulation in trial stages (4th or 5th year) along with all you can buy antlerless tags. The whole idea behind this is to increase "trophy bucks" and increase the harvest of 2 1/2 year old or older deer.

Mississippi has had the 4 pt rule now since 1995. 85% of hunters are in favour of the 'trophy rule' --- "More and Bigger Syndrome / Belief"

HOWEVER:

"Statistics show a decrease of 19 inches of antlers in the Boone and Crockett (B&C) scores of 3 1/2-year-old bucks taken on the WMA since the 4-point rule was adopted. This is exactly the effect that some biologists forewarned, because the restrictive rule protects smaller antlered yearlings and allows the harvest of larger antlered yearlings."


"In the years before the regulation, 2 1/2-year-old bucks harvested averaged 87 inches on the Boone and Crockett scale. After the 4-point, they averaged 78 inches," Demarais explained. "Before the regulation, a 3 1/2-year-old deer averaged 113 inches; now it's down to 94 inches." Such statistics suggest that harvested bucks are actually losing some of the length and mass of antler that the 4-point rule was set up to increase.


Kansas, Alabama, Pennsylvania and a host of others also have the point restrictions ......

Some quotes from various works regarding point restrictions on white-tailed deer to supplement what we already know about mule deer and elk antler restrictions:

Interestingly - it was "hunters, game clubs etc" that pushed the biologists to implement these restrictions with the ideaology that point restrictions would produce more and bigger bucks"

Read what what they are saying now:

"Many hunters had hoped that with rules against shooting small bucks, more record-class deer would be taken. For whatever reason(s), it hasn't happened."

"When the 3-point rule first went into effect we saw an immediate and dramatic increase in antler size of the bucks entered in our contest," "But in the last couple of years that trend has leveled off and maybe even decreased a little bit."

"With statewide deer kill down by as much as 40 per cent over the last two seasons, Natural State hunters are for the first time asking a lot of questions concerning the management plan currently in place." --> the point restrictions

"everyone involved needs to understand that antler restrictions, including the so-called 3-point rule, are not the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. What they are is one step in the right direction. They are designed to quickly push a lot of bucks into an older age bracket, and, in conjunction with other methods, including doe harvest, the can produce dramatic results in a fairly short period of time. They are not, in themselves, a long-term management plan."

"Generally, our concern is that we may be degrading future deer populations by the continued removal of the 'better' [larger-antlered] members of the yearling age-class"

"his statistics show a decrease of 19 inches of antlers in the Boone and Crockett scores of 3 1/2-year-old bucks taken on the WMA since the 4-point rule was adopted. This is exactly the effect that some biologists predicted: Over time, the restrictive rule protects smaller-antlered yearlings and allows the harvest of larger-antlered yearlings"


"Protecting smaller-antlered bucks and harvesting larger-
antlered bucks within an age class reduces average
antler size in older age classes – if antler development in
younger bucks predicts future antler development. This
is called “high grading” and is similar to removing better quality
timber and leaving lower-quality timber for later
harvest"


"On these public management areas, gross
Boone & Crockett scores decreased 5 to 9 inches for
21⁄2-year bucks and 10 to 17 inches for 31⁄2-year bucks."


"The big shift in prevalence of antler points within the 3

1⁄2-year age class on this public property shows how the 4-point antler restriction
can decrease average antler size."

[GoatGuy]

Missouri has a 4 pt regulation in trial stages (4th or 5th year) along with all you can buy antlerless tags. The whole idea behind this is to increase "trophy bucks" and increase the harvest of 2 1/2 year old or older deer.

Mississippi has had the 4 pt rule now since 1995. 85% of hunters are in favour of the 'trophy rule' --- "More and Bigger Syndrome / Belief"

HOWEVER:

"Statistics show a decrease of 19 inches of antlers in the Boone and Crockett (B&C) scores of 3 1/2-year-old bucks taken on the WMA since the 4-point rule was adopted. This is exactly the effect that some biologists forewarned, because the restrictive rule protects smaller antlered yearlings and allows the harvest of larger antlered yearlings."


"In the years before the regulation, 2 1/2-year-old bucks harvested averaged 87 inches on the Boone and Crockett scale. After the 4-point, they averaged 78 inches," Demarais explained. "Before the regulation, a 3 1/2-year-old deer averaged 113 inches; now it's down to 94 inches." Such statistics suggest that harvested bucks are actually losing some of the length and mass of antler that the 4-point rule was set up to increase.


Kansas, Alabama, Pennsylvania and a host of others also have the point restrictions ......

Some quotes from various works regarding point restrictions on white-tailed deer to supplement what we already know about mule deer and elk antler restrictions:

Interestingly - it was "hunters, game clubs etc" that pushed the biologists to implement these restrictions with the ideaology that point restrictions would produce more and bigger bucks"

Read what what they are saying now:

"Many hunters had hoped that with rules against shooting small bucks, more record-class deer would be taken. For whatever reason(s), it hasn't happened."

"When the 3-point rule first went into effect we saw an immediate and dramatic increase in antler size of the bucks entered in our contest," "But in the last couple of years that trend has leveled off and maybe even decreased a little bit."

"With statewide deer kill down by as much as 40 per cent over the last two seasons, Natural State hunters are for the first time asking a lot of questions concerning the management plan currently in place." --> the point restrictions

"everyone involved needs to understand that antler restrictions, including the so-called 3-point rule, are not the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. What they are is one step in the right direction. They are designed to quickly push a lot of bucks into an older age bracket, and, in conjunction with other methods, including doe harvest, the can produce dramatic results in a fairly short period of time. They are not, in themselves, a long-term management plan."

"Generally, our concern is that we may be degrading future deer populations by the continued removal of the 'better' [larger-antlered] members of the yearling age-class"

"his statistics show a decrease of 19 inches of antlers in the Boone and Crockett scores of 3 1/2-year-old bucks taken on the WMA since the 4-point rule was adopted. This is exactly the effect that some biologists predicted: Over time, the restrictive rule protects smaller-antlered yearlings and allows the harvest of larger-antlered yearlings"


"Protecting smaller-antlered bucks and harvesting larger-
antlered bucks within an age class reduces average
antler size in older age classes – if antler development in
younger bucks predicts future antler development. This
is called “high grading” and is similar to removing better quality
timber and leaving lower-quality timber for later
harvest"


"On these public management areas, gross
Boone & Crockett scores decreased 5 to 9 inches for

21⁄2-year bucks and 10 to 17 inches for 31⁄2-year bucks."


"The big shift in prevalence of antler points within the 3

1⁄2-year age class on this public property shows how the 4-point antler restriction
can decrease average antler size."


There's a pile more like this.

People have tried antler restrictions and more often than not the older aged bucks have actually declined.

Very seldom do biologists/researchers/managers support them but somehow the experiment continues.

This is a good thread.

[BCrams]

There's a pile more like this.

Lots of info out there. Its pretty easy for a hunter to educate themselves if they wanted to without being so headstrong that point restrictions like for elk etc what we need.

People have tried antler restrictions and more often than not the older aged bucks have actually declined.

Nearly all studies have concluded this. First few years are good but then its all downhill from there as far as older age class bucks / antler sizes go.

Very seldom do biologists/researchers/managers support them but somehow the experiment continues.

Many cases in the States where these point restrictions came into effect, was because the "hunters / game clubs / outfitters" wanted it and "believed" it would make things better. Not entirely the fault of biologists/researchers/managers but there are several instances where they wanted to implement point restrictions as well.



.............

[7mag700]

"When the 3-point rule first went into effect we saw an immediate and dramatic increase in antler size of the bucks entered in our contest," "But in the last couple of years that trend has leveled off and maybe even decreased a little bit."

Great posts BCrams.

Pardon my ignorance here, wildlife management strategy is new yet intriguing to me. Do they continue the thought process? If the three-point rule results in short-term gain, shouldn't there then be a 'stage two' to the strategy? More stages over a 5-year (ish) rotation?

7m7

[bridger]

I can appreciate that if you don't live in the peace that it is hard to believe the mule deer population is down at least 50% from 2005 the 2006/2007 winter was our most severe in 20 years that and a late spring brought the deer numbers way down. the spring 2007 carry over counts by moe staff confirmed this. the issue now is that the moe sucumbed to pressure from the regional district and dept of agriculture and publicly announced that the deer and elk poplulation in the ag zone of 7b was to be reduced a further 50%. one moe official told me personally "I know you won't like this but we are going to kill every elk in the ag zone due to pressure from ranchers etc." the whitetails are holding up well and increasing in some areas. the winter of 206/07 also saw the moose pop in the 7b ag zone reduced by about 25% (moe spring carry over counts) caused by a heavy tick infestion and extreme weather. Heavy wolf predation in parts of 7b are also contributing to the over all decline. be interesting to see the results in a year or two from now.

[6616]

the issue now is that the moe sucumbed to pressure from the regional district and dept of agriculture and publicly announced that the deer and elk poplulation in the ag zone of 7b was to be reduced a further 50%. one moe official told me personally "I know you won't like this but we are going to kill every elk in the ag zone due to pressure from ranchers etc."

Sounds very familiar. It was pressure from ranchers that led to the issuing of 10,000 antlerless elk tags in the East Kootenay in 1986,1987, and 1988. The problem arose in 1989 througth the early ninties when they reduced tags and the elk population continued to plummet. They had reduced the population so fast that a severe predator pit situation had been created. Scary situation since the Peace also has it's share of wolves.

[whitetailsheds]

"Kill every elk....", powerful statement, but I think a wee bit delusional. Kinda like putting a wall or fence up for the whole ag zone, with towers and armed guards.
I can understand pressure from ranchers/ landowners, but, c'mon, "kill every elk"?
Sounds to me like an easy answer on the MOE's part. Throwing their hands and shoulders in the air, and saying, "screw it, kill 'em all".

[GoatGuy]

In the Alberta Peace Block (Zone 8) right next to you guys the buck harvest target for White Tailed Deer (WTD) is 10% of the total population estimate and the doe target is 6% of the population estimate. Target havests are reached by adjusting the "any deer" and 'bucks only" season lengths (no antler point restrictions). They have about 13,000 hunters chasing WTD in the Peace Block with 100,000 hunter days of hunter opportunity. Effort is about 7.5 days per kill. Their WTD population continues to expand. Weather patterns and habitat capability must be very similar or maybe even exactly the same as in 7-33 and 7-20.

What does this tell us...?

Not to be overly critical of BC Fish and Wildlife, Alberta F&W has much better budgets than the BC F&W Branch. They survey deer populations twice in every five year period and they survey habitat once every five uears. Do you guys ever recall a habitat survey being done in Region 7? With more comprehensive data they can be more aggressive in harvest strategies.

Smoky district is down 50% as well. Winter severity's the killer for sure - they've been scalling things back a bit the last couple of years when it comes to antlerless mule authorizations BUT they also had control of their deer prior to the dieoff. Should come back faster than the Peace as they probably suffered greater losses because they had no control over their deer.



I wouldn't get too hung up on the huge loss and blah, blah, blah - start with the right question first.


Where should the deer be?