Did anyone notice this!!!! ?

[grizzly_taker]

Watching wild tv with my 13 year old step son who is getting into the hunting sport, we were watching Outdoor Edge-love of the hunt. It aired at 6:30 Monday Nov. 24. They showed a young hunter taking his first deer and his dad let him shoot a doe that was with two fawns. I even rewound it and looked at the footage a second time just to confirm that it was a wet doe with twins. You could see the teets on the doe were swollen. What a great way to start one young hunters career and for another to watch this unethical kill of a mother deer with twins.:mad:

[Browningmirage]

I watched one on wild with a bear hunt in ontario...two bears to choose from, one cinnamon and one big black, he was considering both, even though he knew the cinnamon had cubs (you could see them in the vid). He shot the black, but he had lined up on the sow

In some places i believe people often shoot does with fawns. not sure what the science is regarding mortality rates for fawns, and im not going to hazard a guess

[Will]

Many places tags are simply antlerless, quite legal to take the fawn or the doe. Whether the local pop can handle a doe/fawn season is left to some that we hope are better equipped to decide then us.

There is No need in the World for Anti hunting groups etc.....
We are our own worst critics at times.

Ethics....an individual belief with no real right or wrong answers.

Glad the Boy took a deer while out hunting with his Dad. :grin:

[Chuck]

I guess some people just don't know, have little or no experience or maybe just want to get three for the price of one. Obviously, and since this was filmed, this guy just didn't have a clue. Oops!

[grizzly_taker]

They talk about getting young generation involved, and yes anti-hunting groups will be watching these shows....you have a anterless tag and you come upon a doe with a fawn than you should opt to take the fawn, when you kill the doe, the fawn is most likely not to survive that winter to follow!

[dana]

Grizzly taker,
Come fall, the fawns are weaned. They don't rely on momma anymore. This is why the bios can have antlerless seasons come fall. Those that think the fawns won't be able to survive are the ones that don't have a clue.

[rocksteady]

Many places tags are simply antlerless,

There is No need in the World for Anti hunting groups etc.....
We are our own worst critics at times.

Ethics....an individual belief with no real right or wrong answers.

:grin:

You hit the nail on the head

[PGK]

Grizzly taker,
Come fall, the fawns are weaned. They don't rely on momma anymore. This is why the bios can have antlerless seasons come fall. Those that think the fawns won't be able to survive are the ones that don't have a clue.

Is that so lord dana? How bout the studies done in CO recently that show fawns without mothers will have a higher mortality than those without because they're shorter and can't make it in deep snow. Whereas fawns still attached to their mothers can follow in the trail broken by the doe. Quality of winter range and other factors notwithstanding.

Never occurred to your massive mule deer stat spitter outter brain?

:razz:

[dana]

I guess Tinney or PGkris is back and willing to speak again out of his ass eh? Want to attack more kids do ya? PGK, after your attack on me and my kid regarding his mountain goat this year, I won't even give you the time of day. You want to speak out of your ass again and make a fool out of yourself for the zillioneth time, go for it.

[Monashee]

Grizzly taker,
Come fall, the fawns are weaned. They don't rely on momma anymore. This is why the bios can have antlerless seasons come fall. Those that think the fawns won't be able to survive are the ones that don't have a clue.


A lone fawn is more subsceptible to predation ie. not having another pair of ears, eyes and a nose to alert for danger, it doesn't have its mothers experience from which it can learn from , breaking trail in snow, best area to bed down in to save calories, maybe even support mentally to some degree.

I'm not a fan of most doe seasons , not many areas of the province could be said to have an excess of deer or a shortage of food for more deer. When you have a doe season you are effectively taking out at least 2 deer, more really. I wonder how much of a "maximizing revenue" position is responsible for the doe seasons in the province ?

[dana]

Not many areas of the province could be said to have an excess of deer???? Where have you been hunting??? If you listen to the powers that be, we are actually overrun by the rats in this province and if we don't knock back the numbers, nature will do it for us. Fawns can and do survive quite well without their mothers, but you are right, they are succeptable to predation, as are most fawns. Less fawns competing for a limited winter range food source isn't a bad thing given our high deer numbers.

[PGK]

I guess Tinney or PGkris is back and willing to speak again out of his ass eh? Want to attack more kids do ya? PGK, after your attack on me and my kid regarding his mountain goat this year, I won't even give you the time of day. You want to speak out of your ass again and make a fool out of yourself for the zillioneth time, go for it.

You got nothin. Cause you know I'm right. Now take your toys and git :twisted: Little boy

[6616]

Grizzly taker,
Come fall, the fawns are weaned. They don't rely on momma anymore. This is why the bios can have antlerless seasons come fall. Those that think the fawns won't be able to survive are the ones that don't have a clue.

I don't think this should be shown on TV due to what it does to hunter image, but the fact of the matter is that Dana is correct, this is not unethical nor does it represent any kind of a conservation concern at all.

Considering the current density of white tailed deer in the southern half of the procvince and the Peace I expect (barring a huge winter kill) we're going to see a lot more antlerless seasons in the next few years.

Antlerless seasons are a viable management tool and really the only effective tool managers have to bring expanding populations under control. We need to support this, not trash it, or we'll take the antlerless option away from managers and then the dire predictions of major winter die-off are sure to occur sooner or later.

Statistics have shown that the fawn kill in antlerless seasons is only about 8 to 12 % of the total antlerless kill, and there is also no overwhelming scientific evidence that survivial rates of fawn orphaned during the fall hunting season have a dramatically reduced survivial rate.

[grizzly_taker]

Not many areas of the province could be said to have an excess of deer???? Where have you been hunting??? If you listen to the powers that be, we are actually overrun by the rats in this province and if we don't knock back the numbers, nature will do it for us. Fawns can and do survive quite well without their mothers, but you are right, they are succeptable to predation, as are most fawns. Less fawns competing for a limited winter range food source isn't a bad thing given our high deer numbers.
From what I been hearing the deer numbers are not that great in a lot of places

[jessbennett]

From what I been hearing the deer numbers are not that great in a lot of places



errrrmmmm............ there is deer everywhere!!!! the population of deer in b.c. is getting crazy. and with an overun deer population, comes predators. take a look at wolf populations around.

[Dannybuoy]

Grizzly taker,
Come fall, the fawns are weaned. They don't rely on momma anymore. This is why the bios can have antlerless seasons come fall
I would go with Dana on this one ... sure the odds would be slightly higher that the fawn wouldnt survive due to predatation but the populations are quite healthy .

[silvercreek20]

errrrmmmm............ there is deer everywhere!!!! the population of deer in b.c. is getting crazy. and with an overun deer population, comes predators. take a look at wolf populations around.

I agree with Jess, there are deer everywhere. They are being hit on the road to work 3 or 4 a day. I think this might be more specific to our region here in Williams Lake and not so much for other parts of the province. There is a govenment funded project in place here for farmers to receive monies back for lost crops.

[lunatic]

Not many areas of the province could be said to have an excess of deer???? Where have you been hunting??? If you listen to the powers that be, we are actually overrun by the rats in this province and if we don't knock back the numbers, nature will do it for us. Fawns can and do survive quite well without their mothers, but you are right, they are succeptable to predation, as are most fawns. Less fawns competing for a limited winter range food source isn't a bad thing given our high deer numbers.


I could be wrong but it doesn't sound like you have much respect for the game you pursue if you refer to them as "rats". As for the survival rate of fawns without the mother....I think that would be a no-brainer. Scientific studies done or not, I could not be convinced that it doesn't make a difference. Whether you believe it is ethical or not it just isn't right IMHO.

[boxhitch]

Dana , I'm with you on this one too. And 6616 and others.
The fawns are not reliant on the Doe for food, and yes may have trouble getting along if alone. But who has ever seen a lone doe or fawn in the winter ? They always group up on good winter range, for safety as well as the passing on of habits.
This whole maternal sanctity doesn't wash with me. If numbers support a harvest, it doesn't matter what component is targetted, not one rats azz.

[jessbennett]

what i dont understand, is how williams lake doesnt have a doe season without an leh???? :roll:. you'd think that here of all places could support a doe season. and not only mule deer, but whitetail also! and they are taking over the mule deer range. cougar numbers and wolf numbers are on the swift uprise as well.

[boxhitch]

I wonder how much of a "maximizing revenue" position is responsible for the doe seasons in the province ?I think of it as maximizing hunter opportunity, and population control where holding capacity is an issue.

[6616]

what i dont understand, is how williams lake doesnt have a doe season without an leh???? :roll:. you'd think that here of all places could support a doe season. and not only mule deer, but whitetail also! and they are taking over the mule deer range. cougar numbers and wolf numbers are on the swift uprise as well.

I believe that an "any deer" White Tail (probably not for Mule Deer) management regime just like they have in Saskatchewan and Alberta would be sustainable in all of southern BC and the Peace, regions 3, 4, 5, 8, and 7b. I would like to know what the professional biologists think of this concept.

[BigBanger]

Im thinkin the fawns have a better chance makin it with mom around .
Walk alone down hastings and someone steals your five bucks , got mom with ya they be takin her loot while you run .

That being said , I helped out with a doe hunt this year and she sure hits the spot .

I saw the show and I dont see a need for that crap to be showin on t.v.

[jessbennett]

I believe that an "any deer" White Tail (probably not for Mule Deer) management regime just like they have in Saskatchewan and Alberta would be sustainable in all of southern BC and the Peace, regions 3, 4, 5, 8, and 7b. I would like to know what the professional biologists think of this concept.


well whitetail are really moving in as of late, and they take over fast. i just dont understand how p.g. and the north can have a doe season for mulies but not here in the ol puddle? or at least every second year have a doe season.

[KevinB]

Scientific studies done or not, I could not be convinced that it doesn't make a difference


That's unfortunate...


Are you just referring to this specific instance, or do you come up with all of your opinions this way? "I don't care what the data says, this is what I think"...?

[6616]

well whitetail are really moving in as of late, and they take over fast. i just dont understand how p.g. and the north can have a doe season for mulies but not here in the ol puddle? or at least every second year have a doe season.

Well not knowing much about those deer herds and the habitat features up there I don't know, but wildlife management is a regional responsibility within MOE and many regional biologist have different opinions, and many management strategies are impacted (sometimes negatively) as well by the public and regional advisory committees. Maybe we need a more centralized influence in management..???

[Dannybuoy]

If I am not mistaken :eek: they did a study some years ago in this area and found those a high % (80?) of whitetails had twins while mulies were around 20% twins thus explaining the population explosion of whities , coupled with their ability to live in urban areas of course ...

[6616]

As for the survival rate of fawns without the mother....I think that would be a no-brainer. Scientific studies done or not, I could not be convinced that it doesn't make a difference. Whether you believe it is ethical or not it just isn't right IMHO.

Of course it makes a difference Lunatic, that would be obvious, but the question is whether it makes a big enough difference to be a serious conservtion issue, and there just haven't been many studies on this so, despite the huge number of opinions, no one really knows for sure.

There are many strong beliefs passed down from father to son over generations of hunting, and many of them have been subsequently proven to be untrue, but they still often get in the way of modern scientific management. "don't ever shoot does" and "always take the fawn instead of your breeding age doe" and "4 pt antler restriction produce more mature trophy bucks"..... are just a few of them. The reality is we need to self-educate and let the "old wives tales die a natural death"

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Did anyone catch the credits and figure out where it was filmed ????

if you got a real problem with the show ...why dont you email WildTV ...and voice your concerns
http://www.wildtv.ca/index.php?page=contact-us

The Guys Name in charge of Programming is Scott Stirling ...

Tell him that Mikey in Prince George told you to complain to him instead of Bitching about it on a website that has nothing to do with WildTV

[lunatic]

That's unfortunate...


Are you just referring to this specific instance, or do you come up with all of your opinions this way? "I don't care what the data says, this is what I think"...?



Well lets just say that there are lots of so called "experts" that from what i have experienced don't know s--t! Someone post this "scientific evidence" if it exists and then maybe i'll change MY opinion. Or maybe I should let some "scientist" tell me what my opinion should be. Not every area would be the same so it would also depend on where that study was done. Down in the LML i'm sure the survival rate would be a lot different than in the Peace Country where it can be -40 for weeks and 10+ feet of snow. Scientific "data" also said the pine beetle would never reach the Peace Country and if it did would not happen till at least 2014. Guess what..... been here lately?

[Island Blacktail]

You shouldn't shoot Does!!

[Will]

You shouldn't shoot Does!!
Yes you're right on ! :roll:

Heck keep that up and we really shouldn't be shooting anything then should we ?

If it's a Lawful season and a sustainable critter......Kill it and grill it !

Like I said, we are our own worse critics.....

[Walksalot]

If a hunter is following a, and a believer in a responsible wildlife management strategy the the responsible thing to do, when faced with the decision whether to take the doe or fawn, do is take the fawn. If the hunter takes the doe then the chances of survival for the fawn or fawns is lessened plus the doe may well be impregnated at that time. The spin off effect can result in more than one animal being removed from the population. The power of reason separates us from the rest of the predators and is a trait we should exercise when ever we can.

[GoatGuy]

I'm not a fan of most doe seasons , not many areas of the province could be said to have an excess of deer or a shortage of food for more deer. When you have a doe season you are effectively taking out at least 2 deer, more really. I wonder how much of a "maximizing revenue" position is responsible for the doe seasons in the province ?

LMAO. Antlerless authorizations are practically the mainstay of the BC economy.

[KevinB]

Well lets just say that there are lots of so called "experts" that from what i have experienced don't know s--t! Someone post this "scientific evidence" if it exists and then maybe i'll change MY opinion. Or maybe I should let some "scientist" tell me what my opinion should be. Not every area would be the same so it would also depend on where that study was done. Down in the LML i'm sure the survival rate would be a lot different than in the Peace Country where it can be -40 for weeks and 10+ feet of snow. Scientific "data" also said the pine beetle would never reach the Peace Country and if it did would not happen till at least 2014. Guess what..... been here lately?

This should really be in another thread but...

Lunatic, the statement I was referring to was when you said you could not be convinced of something no matter what studies are done. I wasn't talking about the particular situation of fawn survival etc. Since you have now said that good enough data or evidence could change your opinion on something, than I'll stand corrected and assume that I read too much into your initial statement and for that (and the thread hijack) I apologize.

I'm not disputing most of your points. Of course there's all kinds of things that experts say that turn out not to pass and there are a lot of "no-so-expert" experts out there. But there are also a whole lot of experts out there who DO really know their stuff. Because of a few percieved misinformed experts, a lot of people seem to automatically discount (and I don't mean just skeptical, that's a good thing) what other "experts" have to say and this is exactly what I see all the time on here (and everywhere, really). This kind of thinking gets under my skin a bit hence the small rant.

If I have anything to add on the actual topic of this thread, I'd say that I agree with 6616 and most of the others - not necessarily a great scene to show on television, but mostly for social reasons (anti-hunters are always watching this stuff).


At risk of hijacking this even further, what set of data are you referring to that said that the MPB would never reach the Peace, or at least not until 2014?

[lunatic]

This should really be in another thread but...

Lunatic, the statement I was referring to was when you said you could not be convinced of something no matter what studies are done. I wasn't talking about the particular situation of fawn survival etc. Since you have now said that good enough data or evidence could change your opinion on something, than I'll stand corrected and assume that I read too much into your initial statement and for that (and the thread hijack) I apologize.

I'm not disputing most of your points. Of course there's all kinds of things that experts say that turn out not to pass and there are a lot of "no-so-expert" experts out there. But there are also a whole lot of experts out there who DO really know their stuff. Because of a few percieved misinformed experts, a lot of people seem to automatically discount (and I don't mean just skeptical, that's a good thing) what other "experts" have to say and this is exactly what I see all the time on here (and everywhere, really). This kind of thinking gets under my skin a bit hence the small rant.

If I have anything to add on the actual topic of this thread, I'd say that I agree with 6616 and most of the others - not necessarily a great scene to show on television, but mostly for social reasons (anti-hunters are always watching this stuff).


At risk of hijacking this even further, what set of data are you referring to that said that the MPB would never reach the Peace, or at least not until 2014?


Well I ranted somewhat too so I also apologize. I was referring to this particular topic of fawn survival. Everything I have seen throughout my years in the bush ( In this particular area of the province ) go totally against what was said. If a doe is taken prior to winter in this area, then from what I have seen the fawn survival is at or near zero ! As for the MPB statement.....I don't remember exactly where I read that.....either in the paper or a magazine. I do remember though that a study or something was done saying it would probably never reach the Peace and if it did would take at least till 2014. I remember this because it was the next spring that i was taking a riverboat trip up to Kinuseo falls when I first noticed all the trees that were turning red. I thought about the article and remember thinking how wrong they were as it was only 2005 at that time.

[KevinB]

Sounds like that article you read was getting some of its facts wrong. So in that case, it was a journalist who didn't do their research worth s**t, rather than an expert who didn't know s**t.

Lunatic, PM sent. :wink:

[dutchie]

I actually saw that one too.... I was perplexed on the issue but if i can remember it was in Iowa or Nebraska or somthing and then the next show they were talking about how every one buck you take you should take 10 does.

The best thing you can do for your step son is explain to him that the laws in BC, and each Province and State are all different.

I saw another eppisod and the hunters shooting turkey and there were yotes around. One hunter exclaimed that these animals are so vital to the enviroment and they is why they should never be shot."

I just look at us killing yotes to help the deer population and there is nothing wrong with it.

looking into the regs that killing a wet doe is legal there. It is kind of like killing a nanny... they do not encourage it but there is no problem.

Needless to say killing a wet doe is definatly not legal here. And that should be VERY clear to your stepson

my 2 cents

dutchie

ps did not read the whole forum because it was hijacked... I think that this was on topic tho. :)

[Will]

Needless to say killing a wet doe is definatly not legal here. And that should be VERY clear to your stepson

"not legal" Where exactly ? :?

[GoatGuy]

I actually saw that one too.... I was perplexed on the issue but if i can remember it was in Iowa or Nebraska or somthing and then the next show they were talking about how every one buck you take you should take 10 does.

The best thing you can do for your step son is explain to him that the laws in BC, and each Province and State are all different.

I saw another eppisod and the hunters shooting turkey and there were yotes around. One hunter exclaimed that these animals are so vital to the enviroment and they is why they should never be shot."

I just look at us killing yotes to help the deer population and there is nothing wrong with it.

looking into the regs that killing a wet doe is legal there. It is kind of like killing a nanny... they do not encourage it but there is no problem.

Needless to say killing a wet doe is definatly not legal here. And that should be VERY clear to your stepson

my 2 cents

dutchie

ps did not read the whole forum because it was hijacked... I think that this was on topic tho. :)

I haven't seen it anywhere that it is illegal to kill a wet doe in BC.

As far the mortality thing. The 'trick' with random harvest is that you may increase mortality for that fawn BUT by choosing a dry doe you don't necessarily help the herd either.

A dry doe could be:
a yearling who may have/may not have been bred as a fawn and who lost her fawn - - big potential for the future here
a mature doe who lost her fawn to predators, a car accident, due to mal-nutrition - also big potential here
a barren doe who won't produce fawns - not much potential

You really don't know.........

Walksalot logic makes sense. If you're worried then harvest the fawn. Either way in terms of the population it isn't a big deal.

[huntwriter]

Grizzly taker,
Come fall, the fawns are weaned. They don't rely on momma anymore. This is why the bios can have antlerless seasons come fall. Those that think the fawns won't be able to survive are the ones that don't have a clue.

Not quite true there great Dana. Even if a fawn is weaned it relies for survival on the mother. Fawns are quicker weaned then they been trained by their mothers. Fawns do not instinctively know how to survive in a hostile environment. They have to learn it. I can show you the research result of orphaned fawn survival at different stages of their age (see paragraph below).

Orphaned fawns in the lactation period have zero survival chance. Orphaned fawns past the lactation period (weaned) but not matured have less than 34% survival chance. Matured orphaned fawns have a survival chance of over 40%. The reason that the survival chances are slim for orphaned fawns is because all orphaned fawns, regardless of age and with few exceptions, are outcast from the herd.

Having said that it bears to remember that TV hunting shows are filmed all over north America and what here in BC might not be considered “appropriate” is elsewhere not only encouraged but the game law. Take Tennessee for instance where hunters can kill as many as ten deer or Connecticut where hunters have to “earn” a buck tag by first killing seven does wet or dry.

Here in BC we’re spoiled for open land while in the states mentioned above and many others pretty much everything is suburban and on top of that they have to deal with a deer herd numbering in the millions. Take Illinois, a small state that would fit 30 times into BC has a deer herd of over a million.

Unless these states take very drastic management measures, like Wisconsin where hunters can apply for as many as 20 antlerless tags, deer will over populate and in some areas deer already have overpopulated to the point where they exceed the available habitat. The only way to lower the deer numbers is no kill does, bucks have no impact on herd populations does do.

I am not trying to hijack this tread but the afore information might help to understand that other areas of North America have different game laws than we do because they have other conservation needs. Rather then getting upset about how others hunt and what they hunt we need to know why and then explain it to the children.

[GoatGuy]

Orphaned fawns in the lactation period have zero survival chance. Orphaned fawns past the lactation period (weaned) but not matured have less than 34% survival chance. Matured orphaned fawns have a survival chance of over 40%. The reason that the survival chances are slim for orphaned fawns is because all orphaned fawns, regardless of age and with few exceptions, are outcast from the herd.


Which area/jurisdiction was this from and what was mortality for fawns that were not orphaned?


__________________________________________________ __________


This is the best I could come up with. Luckily I found it on the net and didn't have to retype. Out of Pennsylvania

"The social organization of the whitetail is largely matriarchal with the most common social group being an adult doe, her fawns and her yearling female offspring. Sometimes three or four generations of related does are present in a family group.

When fawning season rolls around in late May, adult does leave the family group and remain alone to bear and rear their fawns. Once a pregnant doe leaves the family circle to bear her fawns, her yearling offspring are left on their own for the summer. At this time, young males may disperse from their mother's home range.

If siblings remain together throughout most of summer, yearling bucks will separate in September as the rut approaches, and disperse from the mother's home range. Whether they disperse in the spring or fall, yearling bucks in Pennsylvania and other areas will travel about 5 miles on average (Nelson 1993, Rosenberry et al. 1999); however, distances of more than 20 miles are possible.

Yearling does remain in the mother's home range and generally rejoin their mother and her new fawns between September and October. During the breeding season adult and yearling bucks tend to stay alone except when in pursuit of a female approaching estrus. After the breeding season in late January, yearling and adult bucks form loose associations of small groups, usually two to four animals, which remain together throughout most of the winter and summer months. These groups break up around September when the rut starts."

Of course this implies that survival is higher when the fawn is not orphaned but the question is: How much more?

[boxhitch]

Of course this implies that survival is higher when the fawn is not orphaned but the question is: How much more?
Boo-hoo, I don't care if it costs another billion dollars......if it saves just one life.
Oop s off topic

[huntwriter]

Which area/jurisdiction was this from and what was mortality for fawns that were not orphaned?


__________________________________________________ __________


This is the best I could come up with. Luckily I found it on the net and didn't have to retype. Out of Pennsylvania

"The social organization of the whitetail is largely matriarchal with the most common social group being an adult doe, her fawns and her yearling female offspring. Sometimes three or four generations of related does are present in a family group.

When fawning season rolls around in late May, adult does leave the family group and remain alone to bear and rear their fawns. Once a pregnant doe leaves the family circle to bear her fawns, her yearling offspring are left on their own for the summer. At this time, young males may disperse from their mother's home range.

If siblings remain together throughout most of summer, yearling bucks will separate in September as the rut approaches, and disperse from the mother's home range. Whether they disperse in the spring or fall, yearling bucks in Pennsylvania and other areas will travel about 5 miles on average (Nelson 1993, Rosenberry et al. 1999); however, distances of more than 20 miles are possible.

Yearling does remain in the mother's home range and generally rejoin their mother and her new fawns between September and October. During the breeding season adult and yearling bucks tend to stay alone except when in pursuit of a female approaching estrus. After the breeding season in late January, yearling and adult bucks form loose associations of small groups, usually two to four animals, which remain together throughout most of the winter and summer months. These groups break up around September when the rut starts."

Of course this implies that survival is higher when the fawn is not orphaned but the question is: How much more?

It’s from a study I read around 1990 and was obtained from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Services. Yes it’s another of “those” American studies. As far as I remember the study was a compilation form various U.S. states. The survival of non-orphaned fawns was given at around 40+ percent, surprisingly low I thought. But I guess taking different weather and habitat conditions (north v. south -grassland v. dersert), predation and hunting into consideration it is about right.

To your article above with the Pennsylvania study. I have found many times, especially in high deer population areas, that doe herds can consist of as many as 40 does and bachelor buck groups as many as 20 animals. From the sheer size of these herds I conclude that it is quite possible that deer from different family bands will form one large herd if necessary.

And with that we have succesfully hijacked this thread. Sorry.:redface:

[Blktail]

Fawns are for the most part weaned by hunting season in these parts. Female fawns can actually go into estrus during their first rut. While they are hanging with mom, they are not dependent on her.

[dana]

I could be wrong but it doesn't sound like you have much respect for the game you pursue if you refer to them as "rats". As for the survival rate of fawns without the mother....I think that would be a no-brainer. Scientific studies done or not, I could not be convinced that it doesn't make a difference. Whether you believe it is ethical or not it just isn't right IMHO.

So how does the term 'rat' disrespect a deer? Did I hurt their feelings or something? God made both the rat and the deer. I respect both critters.:p

You boys spend too much time putting your own human emotion into a situation. I believe this line of thinkin is a direct result of the Disney Bambi propaganda and you guys fell for it. The fact is, nature is a bitch. She doesn't kill based on man's preconceived notions does she? Does a wolf pass on a doe that has a fawn? How bout a cougar, does it decide it is unethical to kill a doe over a fawn? How many fawns are orphaned every year due to vehicle collisons? How bout the winter? Does ol' man winter give a rats ass about whether he starves a fawn or it's mother?

[lunatic]

Yep....that must be it. Disney Bambi propaganda. :rolleyes:

[6616]

Orphaned fawns in the lactation period have zero survival chance. Orphaned fawns past the lactation period (weaned) but not matured have less than 34% survival chance. Matured orphaned fawns have a survival chance of over 40%. The reason that the survival chances are slim for orphaned fawns is because all orphaned fawns, regardless of age and with few exceptions, are outcast from the herd.

No wonder they have so many deer in Pennsylvania and every hunter has to shoot multiple does in an attempt to keep the population under control. If mature orphaned fawns have a better than 40 % survival rate that would indicate unorphaned fawns have an even higher survival rate, and a suvival rate like that I think would be considered quite remarkable in the north west.

Orphaned or not orphaned, and who really knows what percentage are orphaned,,, but combining all fawns I would guess that the white tailed deer herds in western Canada have an overall fawn survival rate of less then 35% in a good year and probably less then 10 or 20 % following a bad winter.

[huntwriter]

No wonder they have so many deer in Pennsylvania and every hunter has to shoot multiple does in an attempt to keep the population under control. If mature orphaned fawns have a better than 40 % survival rate that would indicate unorphaned fawns have an even higher survival rate, and a suvival rate like that I think would be considered quite remarkable in the north west.

Orphaned or not orphaned, and who really knows what percentage are orphaned,,, but combining all fawns I would guess that the white tailed deer herds in western Canada have an overall fawn survival rate of less then 35% in a good year and probably less then 10 or 20 % following a bad winter.

The studies have been done by observations in the field and only include orphaned fawns not overall fawn survival rates. The numbers are based on the age of the fawns. To me it makes sense that a dependent fawn has less of a survival chance then a more mature fawn that had time to learn survival skills from the mother. As I mentioned in another post animals have to learn how to survive they do not know instinctively what to do. Even in America with favorable whitetail deer conditions the overall fawn survival rate is at a round or slightly over 30 percent. Of this thirty percent zero percent of depended orphaned fawns survive and around 40% of the matured fawns survive. Which is really not a lot given the base figure of overall fawn survival into full adulthood.

The survival rate may be much higher in America because of favorable habitat. Most of the Mid-West and the southern part and all the way east to New York is intensive crop agriculture land. It’s a whiptail deer paradise with plenty of high nutrition food all year round in form of corn, soybean, grain and alfalfa. Then there are high nutritious woodland food sources such as white and red oak, persimmons and honeysuckle to name a few. In addition there is no predators to speak of. The few coyotes that are still left are not really a threat to deer.

Compare that to BC. With the exception of the Lower Mainland and the lower part of region eight. We basically have no crop agriculture to speak of and very little high nutritious wild food, speak very poor food quality, and to complicate matters further a very high and diverse predator population. With that in mind I would think that fawn survival is a lot lower here then in areas where the habitat conditions are perfect for deer.

[sawmill]

I tagged an LEH Whitetail doe a few weeks back,passed on MANY does till I found this one all by herself.Pulled the trigger and 8 more deer jumped up and milled around.This one was a dry doe but unless you get close enough to milk them you can`t know for sure.

[6616]

The studies have been done by observations in the field and only include orphaned fawns not overall fawn survival rates. The numbers are based on the age of the fawns. To me it makes sense that a dependent fawn has less of a survival chance then a more mature fawn that had time to learn survival skills from the mother. As I mentioned in another post animals have to learn how to survive they do not know instinctively what to do. Even in America with favorable whitetail deer conditions the overall fawn survival rate is at a round or slightly over 30 percent. Of this thirty percent zero percent of depended orphaned fawns survive and around 40% of the matured fawns survive. Which is really not a lot given the base figure of overall fawn survival into full adulthood.

The survival rate may be much higher in America because of favorable habitat. Most of the Mid-West and the southern part and all the way east to New York is intensive crop agriculture land. It’s a whiptail deer paradise with plenty of high nutrition food all year round in form of corn, soybean, grain and alfalfa. Then there are high nutritious woodland food sources such as white and red oak, persimmons and honeysuckle to name a few. In addition there is no predators to speak of. The few coyotes that are still left are not really a threat to deer.

Compare that to BC. With the exception of the Lower Mainland and the lower part of region eight. We basically have no crop agriculture to speak of and very little high nutritious wild food, speak very poor food quality, and to complicate matters further a very high and diverse predator population. With that in mind I would think that fawn survival is a lot lower here then in areas where the habitat conditions are perfect for deer.

This all makes perfect sense to me Oth. Since the WTD deer herds aren't hunted near as hard in Western Canada, and live under more severe climactic conditions, they are basically density dependent on winter and early spring weather conditions (forage availability), especially here in BC where we shoot very few does and make little or no attempt at overall population density management.

With buck/doe ratios of around 10/100 does and natural mortality rates of 10 to 12 % for adult does in average winters we really only need a recruitment rate of about 25 fawns per 100 does to maintain herd numbers in most (average winters) years

The trend here in BC is for 8 to 10 mild winters in a row where populations peak at or above carrying capacity just in time for one of our rare severe winters and then there are huge losses and the cycle starts all over again.

I know there are a lot of regional biologists and biologists in HQ that would like to change this and maintain deer herds at about 70% of carrying capacity thus allowing much higher survival rates in the hard winters, and maintaining more stable populations over time, but it seems change is very hard to sell to the general hunting public.

[curt]

I dont agree with shooting females of any animal species unless it's your x wives!!!

[huntwriter]

This all makes perfect sense to me Oth. Since the WTD deer herds aren't hunted near as hard in Western Canada, and live under more severe climactic conditions, they are basically density dependent on winter and early spring weather conditions (forage availability), especially here in BC where we shoot very few does and make little or no attempt at overall population density management.

With buck/doe ratios of around 10/100 does and natural mortality rates of 10 to 12 % for adult does in average winters we really only need a recruitment rate of about 25 fawns per 100 does to maintain herd numbers in most (average winters) years

The trend here in BC is for 8 to 10 mild winters in a row where populations peak at or above carrying capacity just in time for one of our rare severe winters and then there are huge losses and the cycle starts all over again.

I know there are a lot of regional biologists and biologists in HQ that would like to change this and maintain deer herds at about 70% of carrying capacity thus allowing much higher survival rates in the hard winters, and maintaining more stable populations over time, but it seems change is very hard to sell to the general hunting public.

6616 – You seem to know a lot about conservation and current trends. Do you know, or have a fair idea, what the current whitetail and mule deer herd percentage to habitat is. I am aware that this may vary from region to region. I am just curious and it would help me as a starting point for future reference, discussions and study. Thanks in advance.

[GoatGuy]

6616 – You seem to know a lot about conservation and current trends. Do you know, or have a fair idea, what the current whitetail and mule deer herd percentage to habitat is. I am aware that this may vary from region to region. I am just curious and it would help me as a starting point for future reference, discussions and study. Thanks in advance.



Ok, so in this study regular fawn survival was 30% and orphaned fawn survival was 40% less than regular fawn survival?

So regular fawn survival was 30/100 and orphaned was 18/100?

I'm disregarding the pre-mature fawns as that's irrelevant when it comes to hunting.

Do you have the sample size?

[6616]

6616 – You seem to know a lot about conservation and current trends. Do you know, or have a fair idea, what the current whitetail and mule deer herd percentage to habitat is. I am aware that this may vary from region to region. I am just curious and it would help me as a starting point for future reference, discussions and study. Thanks in advance.

I can only speak for the East Kootenay and there's not much data on habitat carrying capacity or current suitability level, but I'm guessing that WTD and elk are both near, at, or over K in the EK. This is based on range conditions and the amount of agri-land depredation so it's a pretty loosey-goosey guess.

[6616]

Ok, so in this study regular fawn survival was 30% and orphaned fawn survival was 40% less than regular fawn survival?
So regular fawn survival was 30/100 and orphaned was 18/100?


The way I read it was orphaned fawn survival rate was 40% of the overall average of 30%, or 12%.... ???

[hunter1947]

I would never take a doe that had young ones with her.
I would take a lone female that had no young ones.

To me if you do shoot a doe that had this years fawns the fawns might not survive the winter months.

sometime does don't give birth till late July or into Aug.

[huntwriter]

The way I read it was orphaned fawn survival rate was 40% of the overall average of 30%, or 12%.... ???

Sorry I am little late here. It's exactly as you explain it to Goat Guy 6616. While 40% sounds a lot it isn't really considering the average of ALL fawn survival is only 30%.

To the habitat carrying percentage that is what I have expected to hear. I have looked high and low, far and wide and never could find any figures here in BC only educated guesses. Thanks.

[jessbennett]

I checked out wild tv for a week or so while it was free on my sattelite feed and saw very little that had much to do with hunting as I know it. Every show seemed to be about selling stuff and the dead animals were merely props to bolster sales.

The show that made me turn it off for good featured long range shooting at game that from my lazy-boy vantage all looked stalkable. 900 yard shots at moose, 600 yard shots at grizzly and black bear etc. All thinly disguised as hunting but really trying very hard to sell fancy scopes and bullets to every lazy weekend warrior too unskilled to stalk game and convinced of having some innate sniper talent. Turned my stomach and I can imagine how a non hunter channel surfing might have perceived it.

I personally have no problem with people killing and eating does or fawns if it is legal and the hunt is sustainable. Do we really need to portray a doe being shot in front of its fawns on TV though? For the same reason we wouldn't want to see head shots from magnum rifles on TV I believe some restraint can be shown here.

The image of hunting has everything to do with what the majority will impose upon us hunters in terms of hunting privileges. Such images go along way to getting our hunting opportunities curtailed and converting non-hunters into anti-hunters IMHO.



were these long shots kills?????

[eastkoot]

You boys spend too much time putting your own human emotion into a situation. I believe this line of thinkin is a direct result of the Disney Bambi propaganda and you guys fell for it. The fact is, nature is a bitch. She doesn't kill based on man's preconceived notions does she? Does a wolf pass on a doe that has a fawn? How bout a cougar, does it decide it is unethical to kill a doe over a fawn? How many fawns are orphaned every year due to vehicle collisons? How bout the winter? Does ol' man winter give a rats ass about whether he starves a fawn or it's mother?
With evolution and a higher intelligence that we (most of us anyway) have over other animals, we should be able to pass on a doe with a fawn unlike a cougar or wolf that depends on instinct and the food source to survive. As for vehicle collisions, that's no one's decision, that is a fact of life that can't be avoided. No one here needs to kill a doe to eat. If you do, there are soup kitchens and welfare..It's your decision and you have evolved (I hope) enough to make that decision and live with it.. I find it odd that no one here has mentioned that maybe the doe has been bred and 2 deer die, even 3 as the ones in my back yard drop twins. So when a doe is killed as well as the concern for last years fawn surviving, be it 30-40% survival rate, how many deer are actually impacted?? Doe + last years fawn + 1 or 2 not born = 3 maybe 4. And for what, 40-50 lbs of meat

[eastkoot]

Dana , I'm with you on this one too. And 6616 and others.
The fawns are not reliant on the Doe for food, and yes may have trouble getting along if alone. But who has ever seen a lone doe or fawn in the winter ? They always group up on good winter range, for safety as well as the passing on of habits.
This whole maternal sanctity doesn't wash with me. If numbers support a harvest, it doesn't matter what component is targetted, not one rats azz.

__________________


Don't know if you've have had a chance to watch how an orphan gets along with the rest of the herd but does do not accept fawns from another doe. They are actually quite mean, kicking and chasing them away from any food source, moreso if she has her own fawn. After all its survival and in nature there is no room for compasion. Some fawns follow the bucks for one reason or another but are not accepted. I watch them every day and it is a cruel world for an orphan. That being said, it is an individuals right in a legal season to do whatever they are comfortable with..

[6616]

If you don't like shooting does or fawns, or does accompanied by fawns,,,, don't,,, that's your right. However is it right for one to try to force his personal beliefs and convictions on others, especially if it's to the detriment of the wildlife populations?

There are wildlife management objectives that sometimes require reductions in herd density to match habitat conditions, or to correct the social age and sex structure of populations. These objective often require the harvest of does/cows/calves/fawns. These objectives always represent the eductated opinions of biologists and are for the betterment of the herd in general. Is it not up to hunters to support these programs for the good of the herd? Is it right to refuse to support these programs based on personal beliefs even if that is to the detriment of the herd?

Remember when the sheep poulation along the Fraser near OK Ranch had a large non-migratory component and the Wildlife Branch issued some ewe permits for the area in an attempt to correct a dangerous situation. Hunters refused to shoot ewes and some private landowners refused access to those who intended to shoot ewes. They felt shooting ewes was just not right...! They were essentially trying to take control of wildlife management away from the biologists and they succeeded. The non-migratory ewes did not get killed and the result was a significant outbreak of Pasturella which killed a far larger and indiscrimiant number of sheep of all ages and sexes.

The scenario of hunters refusing to support antlerless/female seasons when populations were over capacity, has historically led to several severe winter events where the mortailty far exceeded the level that would have occurred if the poulation had of previously been reduced to within carrying capacity. History repeats itself and it appears it may continue to do so...! Why don't we just let the biologists do their job, and us do ours?

[GoatGuy]

sometime does don't give birth till late July or into Aug.

If you're seeing a lot of fawns aren't being born until July or Aug we've got a SERIOUS problem.

If it's born that late I doubt it'll make the winter.

[GoatGuy]

With evolution and a higher intelligence that we (most of us anyway) have over other animals, we should be able to pass on a doe with a fawn unlike a cougar or wolf that depends on instinct and the food source to survive. As for vehicle collisions, that's no one's decision, that is a fact of life that can't be avoided. No one here needs to kill a doe to eat. If you do, there are soup kitchens and welfare..It's your decision and you have evolved (I hope) enough to make that decision and live with it.. I find it odd that no one here has mentioned that maybe the doe has been bred and 2 deer die, even 3 as the ones in my back yard drop twins. So when a doe is killed as well as the concern for last years fawn surviving, be it 30-40% survival rate, how many deer are actually impacted?? Doe + last years fawn + 1 or 2 not born = 3 maybe 4. And for what, 40-50 lbs of meat




Vehicle collisions are preventable - that's society's decision. At the individual level people choose to speed and choose to ignore wildlife signage. People choose not to harvest wildlife to prevent/mitigate vehicle collisions. People also choose not to erect fencing which protects wildlife and people.

No one needs to harvest any wildlife to live.

As you say with evolution comes 'higher intelligence'.

Is it better not to harvest does annually to provide food for your family or to wait for the population to rise and through winter let hundreds or thousands of deer die of starvation?

One doe may impact a couple of deer in the future, however it may impact up to 80% of the herd.

Not harvesting does will surely cause a far greater number of deer a slow, painful death, long-term negative impact on habitat and hunters (even those who don't harvest does) and society at large.

My favorite part of the hunting regs from this year :wink:

Wildlife Management 101

Female Harvest

In British Columbia, female harvest is almost
universally regulated under LEH.This is because
the survival of adult females is, in almost every
case, the single largest determining factor in a
population’s growth or decline. Since the postwar
era most jurisdictions in North America
have implemented tight restrictions on female
harvest because game populations were perceived
to be at a low. However, since the
broad-scale recovery of wildlife populations
across the continent (in which BC is a leader)
managers are beginning to shift to more liberal
female hunting seasons and female harvests are
becoming an important management tool to
help ensure population viability.

With 'higher intelligence' comes a greater degree of responsibility.

A hunter wouldn't watch a deer die a slow death from a poorly placed shot; why would a hunter save the bullet and stand idly by, watching several deer die a slow, painful death?

[Will]

The act itself of Hunting IS the Trophy.......not the animal you killed.

When everyone figures this out we'll all be better off:wink: