Wow.. 5-04, what a let down...

[CheekyRick]

So, 8 days out in 5-04 A,B&C road hunting, slash hunting, forest hunting.. alternating walking with still hunting, hunting creek valleys with mountain sides and tops - 2 out of the 4 had individual bull moose hunts, and 2 had a group hunt for bull. We all had deer tags.

Out of 8 days, and 2500km total driving from Vancouver to 5-04 (Big Creek / Williams Lake area) and around, we SAW 4 does and 1 cow moose and a few sign.

AND THAT WAS IT

What a let down, man we hunted hard and covered a huge area - but the wolves were out (a pack of 20 were around our camp, spent the nights howling and barking and had already taken a horse and several resident ranches dogs).

The area was absolutely dead - what a let down, especially as it was my first hunting trip - I'm not dissuaded, just felt sorry for my 3 other friends :(

[Jagermeister]

I suspect that there were a lot of game in that area shot by the light of the silery 1,500,000 CP "moon". Some family members of a lady that I'm aquainted with hunted the same area and were successful, they managed two moose in their party. The CO told them they were very lucky, nobody else that he had checked had their success and were in line with your score. "Traditional pit lamping", all I can do is shake my head and if anybody were to tell me that supreme court justices were intelligent and used logic in arriving at a sound judgement, I would say, "Not if it has any female members on it". Sorry Ladies.

[CheekyRick]

Hey Jager... I have to agree.. we stopped by one of the first nation gas stations, the guy pumping looked into the truck with 4 hunters in full gear and 4 ready rifles and then asked.. where's your light?

I'm sure he asked that on purpose.

My view is if first nations want to hunt my light as they traditionally did, then let them do it.. but with a fecking lantern not a 10,000,000 candlepower spot light.

Out of several hunters we spoke to in the area.. all were in the same boat..

I'm sure a full moon had an influence, as well as several large packs of timber wolves. Glad we've decided not to go there again!

[srupp]

Lots of dusk till dawn action happening..:frown:.....plenty of gut piles..

steven

[BCLongshot]

Are they really pit-lamping ? Really ?

If so why are we being so passive about it ?

I promise if I'm told to my face or have proof I will go completley POSTAL !!!

I'll never shut up and stop working to stop it but it's gotta be proven.

[CheekyRick]

Yea.. and the guy said, after we told him how difficult we were finding animals and he asked us were our lamp was, with a smirk on his face, 'oh, you're not allowed to lamp are you?'

Damn rule for them and another for us... equality, not political pandering by weak yellow bellied government civil servants and politicians!


Are they really pit-lamping ? Really ?

If so why are we being so passive about it ?

I promise if I'm told to my face or have proof I will go completley POSTAL !!!

I'll never shut up and stop working to stop it but it's gotta be proven.

[Stresd]

Are they really pit-lamping ? Really ?

If so why are we being so passive about it ?

I promise if I'm told to my face or have proof I will go completley POSTAL !!!

I'll never shut up and stop working to stop it but it's gotta be proven.


We proved it with video years ago. Caught two young bucks on camera in the process of opening up a cow moose. (LEH Bull onlyand still dark AM)They even offered us the moose saying that they had made a mistake. Had it all on Video. Gave the video to the CO from Alexis (Steve)when he finally made it out to our camp 2 days later. By then they had come back and taken the moose.They were from the T. Band at Riskey. We were told at the time that probably nothing could be done about it. And that is exactly what happened, nothing. We were in 5 4b again in Sept this year and have pics of what we thought were acouple more pitlamped moose. I will post some pics when I get my camera back and then you can decide. Some strange things about them. Two moose probably cow with rib cage and a calf, and then about 4 days later another Moose. This time just the head and hide were dumped right beside the others. Used to be a very productive country, but not anymore. The Co's as well as the local ranchers know what is going on. Just bugger all they can do about it.

[treeclimber]

I just spent the last weekend in willams lake, we saw lots of deer, I was sitting on skid trail,(I arrived at dark) and was awaiting first light when a truck was driving by and a doe jumped in front of them and ran behind me "they" piled out guns blazing I jumped up waving my arms and yelling and they just hoped back in the pick up and drove away not even looking if they hit the deer at a 20 yrd shot,(i looked saw no blood)......I guess thats what I get for hunting by the road that close to the reserve

[knighthunter]

I hate all night hunters. It's a problem over here too.

[EvanG]

Yeah a buddy of mine who lives up in that area and who worked on the on a ranch up there for years couldnt even pull a bull out of the area. Those stupid S****S in that riske creek area are a waste or skin. I swear if between stealing from camps, burning bridges and poaching. If I had been up there when they blocked the highway when the immature season was opened you would have never seen my brakes lights, only a monument of lucky cans on the side of the road.

[sparkes3]

spent 6 days hunting around puntzi lake didnt see nothing except coyotes and a outfitter that guaranteed me a moose .all i had to do was give her 3500 bucks for five days.pretty bright up there in the night as well but the moon was travelling along the roads pretty quick

[Glenny]

Same with 5-2...All shot out! Such a sad situation for an area with no GOS in the first place.

[Akula]

Hey Cheek, my buddy and I were in the same areas last week. 5-2, 5-4, 5-13, and 5-14. We saw two bull moose and a cow in the 5-14 area, a few does and the ass ends of two bucks that were fully spooked. It seemed the locals did allright, we passed alot of camps with animals hanging up. We were hunting the same as yourself, we had hiked alot of area with nothing to show for. Lots of sign, but also lots of wind and very warm weather, also a full moon through the nights didn't help much either. We found eight deer hides in one camp alone, both does and bucks. Somebody did okay, it certainly wasn't us.

[browningboy]

Same with 5-2...All shot out! Such a sad situation for an area with no GOS in the first place.

I would have to agree, we were at Dog Creek for a week and didn't see too much, full moon almost every night didn't help, but anyway we did the same, roads, trails, hiking etc. and it just simply sucked ass! Going back to my old stompin grounds next year, people can have 5-02.8-)

[mrdoog]

The area was absolutely dead - what a let down, especially as it was my first hunting trip - I'm not dissuaded, just felt sorry for my 3 other friends
__________________
So you figure the area was dead?
Blame it on wolves and pitlampers?
Hmm, I'm guessing your 3 buddies were neophytes as well?
If there were wolves there, the animals were there as well.
Gutpiles, let me guess they were all beside the road.

Did you and your buddies climb up onto the highest point of land in a clearing?
In the area you were hunting that may be a dirt pile a half km off the road, find that and you'll start finding fresh sign.
You guys probably drove by lots of animals and didn't even realize it.
Seeing as it's your first trip you don't even have your "deer eyes" yet.
The flick of an ear, the wag of a tag, the stump sittin sideways in the sun?

Don't give up, you and your buddies probably had a good time BSing around the fire. Life long memories are made from trips such as yours.

Besides once you kill one of the beasts the work begins.

[jml11]

Are they really pit-lamping ? Really ?

If so why are we being so passive about it ?

I promise if I'm told to my face or have proof I will go completley POSTAL !!!

I'll never shut up and stop working to stop it but it's gotta be proven.


I personally witnessed a truck pit-lamping over the long weekend around farwell canyon (5-4 sdie), tried to get a plate number but didn't want to get too close either as I didn't want to find out what these yahoo's would do if they knew I was trying to get their plate...

[Jagermeister]

There is absolutely nothing that prevents the FN's from stroking the hillside with 10,000,000 candle power strobes. The Supreme Court of Canada, in their infinite wisdom decided that since it was a traditional practice, the First Nations were entitled to use modern technology in the continuance of the practice.
This all stems from an incidence of two FNs on VanIsle that were caught and convicted of pit lamping. The case was eventually advanced to the Supreme Court of Canada, where three of five Justices over-ruled the convictions on the basis of tradition. Two Justices were totally opposed to the use of modern equipment. The three Justices that prevailed for the convicted were women, hence my reference to them in my first post.
It's a far cry from the traditional method of pit lamping, where a fire was built on a flat stone placed on the front of a canoe and the entourage floated down the stream. As far as I know, this practice was only carried out in Eastern Canada.
You would think that the Cariboo/Chilcotin area would be teeming with moose since the area has been under an LEH for the past 10 or so years. I see no reason why the MOE do not just initiate a GOS for moose in Region 5 and be done with it. Of course, it is mandatory to have FNs consultations before taking that bold step, but that's all that is needed. Consult, note their concerns and get on with it. Ironically, moose were not indigenous to the west side of the Rockies until after the furtraders, goldminers and other white persons made a path to what is now known as BC.
As I write this, my mind started to wander and I thought about the possibilities that perhaps there is a backdoor trade in moose meat such as there is for FN caught salmon.

[CheekyRick]

Hey MD.. I think there was a lot of factors, full moon, the 'locals', the wolves, late winter, etc.. The guys that I was with with all experienced hunters, and chats with other guys in the area, we were all in the same boat, some sign, but no animals other than a few does.

Trust me, we travelled far and wide within 5-04. We spent days from 5-6am through to half an hour after sunset in remote slashes, new and old.. and nothing. We covered over 800km in my truck alone travelling to different spots, we walked for hours into the back of slashes, doing quiet walks, loud walks, walks through the timber, hiding on the edge of 5-7 yr old meadowed slash and glassing for a complete day. We tried everything (that we could think of!).

We had a great time (if not for being woken up continously through the night by the baying of wolves).. but yeap.. 4 guys together with beer and poker is always fun :-)

We did get one grouse though - at around $2000 for the trip for all of us, it was an expensive, yet tasty, appy (especially with steak seasoning!) ;-)


The area was absolutely dead - what a let down, especially as it was my first hunting trip - I'm not dissuaded, just felt sorry for my 3 other friends
__________________
So you figure the area was dead?
Blame it on wolves and pitlampers?
Hmm, I'm guessing your 3 buddies were neophytes as well?
If there were wolves there, the animals were there as well.
Gutpiles, let me guess they were all beside the road.

Did you and your buddies climb up onto the highest point of land in a clearing?
In the area you were hunting that may be a dirt pile a half km off the road, find that and you'll start finding fresh sign.
You guys probably drove by lots of animals and didn't even realize it.
Seeing as it's your first trip you don't even have your "deer eyes" yet.
The flick of an ear, the wag of a tag, the stump sittin sideways in the sun?

Don't give up, you and your buddies probably had a good time BSing around the fire. Life long memories are made from trips such as yours.

Besides once you kill one of the beasts the work begins.

[bad arrow]

Ya cheeky, ya know the same thing happened to us, 3 guys 2 draws, 10 days in 3-37 we saw 1 bull and maybe 10 sets of tracks, the weather was poor, no sign of pitlamping, the wolves were like I've never seen before, carcasses wherever we went, there will have to be a wolf kill soon. Other guys were also in the same boat. places that should of held moose did not, it seemed odd that there just wasn't much sign.

[xcaribooer]

We spent a week at Big Creek in November two years ago.While there were two bulls taken by other parties while we were there we only saw i cow. The thing that I remember most about that trip(besides the -20 weather) was the large amount of wolf tracks EVERYWHERE you went.

[Stresd]

We spent a week at Big Creek in November two years ago.While there were two bulls taken by other parties while we were there we only saw i cow. The thing that I remember most about that trip(besides the -20 weather) was the large amount of wolf tracks EVERYWHERE you went.

We were west of you in Vedan and took two bulls out that year in Nov. Like you said . Wolves all over the place. Doesn't help the Moose population at all. The majority of Deer all move out in late Sept in that area and the Cattle are down, so the only large feed animal left would be the Moose.

[wetcoasthunter]

I am a little suspicious that using light was a traditional hunting practice.

They claim they originally used torches. Well has anyone ever walked outside in the dark with say a Coleman lantern (which is way more concentrated light than ANY torch could ever hope to have)? I have, you can see whats directly around you for only a short distance, since the light doesn't project in a beam, it gets dispursed and even shines into your eyes a little, further messing with your ability to see any distance. I just think that using a torch that spreads light everywhere, AND scares animals, would not be something the natives of old would even try and do, seems kinda ******ed. Thoughts?

[bad arrow]

I agree with wetcoasthunter, totally.

[TimberPig]

I personally witnessed a truck pit-lamping over the long weekend around farwell canyon (5-4 sdie), tried to get a plate number but didn't want to get too close either as I didn't want to find out what these yahoo's would do if they knew I was trying to get their plate...

By road, 5-04 is about 35 km away from Farwell. Farwell is right on the northern border of 5-03 and south end of 5-14.

Anywhere relatively close (ie, under 150 km) of any of the reserves out there is going to get hammered by the native pressure, including some using rather questionable methods and ethics.

The increasing wolf populations is not helping in the slightest. They would do well to make all of the region no bag limit on wolves as in 5-02 and 5-15.

[ElkMasterC]

I am a little suspicious that using light was a traditional hunting practice.

They claim they originally used torches. Well has anyone ever walked outside in the dark with say a Coleman lantern (which is way more concentrated light than ANY torch could ever hope to have)? I have, you can see whats directly around you for only a short distance, since the light doesn't project in a beam, it gets dispursed and even shines into your eyes a little, further messing with your ability to see any distance. I just think that using a torch that spreads light everywhere, AND scares animals, would not be something the natives of old would even try and do, seems kinda ******ed. Thoughts?


Exactly.
A lamp or torch ruins your night vision.
If ya wanna hunt traditional any time of year, day or night, use a bow and arrow.
No crossbows, guns, trucks, horses, or electric light.
No quads, radios, winches or cellphones.

No harm, no foul.

I'm all for them keeping their traditions, it's part of our Canadian Cultural diversity, and I collect native art, so I do appreciate the uniqueness of other cultures.

But to use modern inventions, from other cultures to perpetuate a so-called "Traditional" means of harvest is an insult to everyone that has to follow the rules, and eat tag soup, because some choose to twist the law to their own advantage.
And to the distinct disadvantage of others.
It's no better than what white settlers did to them with market Gunning.
That was wrong, and so is this.
Yeah, I hunted there too, Moose draw in 07.....it was a waste of time and money, and just maddening.

[blackdome]

I agree that any type of "night hunting" as unethical and dangerous, but to assume that only the local natives are the culprits is wrong.
The rumours usually start with "my buddy was talking to a so and so and he said "yada yada".
Well, my buddy was talking to a CO in the Williams Lake area a few years back and the CO said that they caught more Non-natives hunting at night than First Nations.

Elkmaster,
I agree that hunting with a night light hunting is wrong.
As for hunting with bow and arrows, I don't agree with your reasoning. Cultures are ever adapting. Heck I don't think First Nations were the first to use the Bow and arrow. With your reasoning, First Nations would not be allowed to use them. First Nations cultures have adapted to everything from horses to Pit lamps. Pit lamps being on the extreme side of the spectrum. The bottom line is people in general are lazy and if there is an easier way to put meat in the freezer (via pit lamping) they will use it.

TimberPig,


Anywhere relatively close (ie, under 150 km) of any of the reserves out there is going to get hammered by the native pressure

I disagree with this statement somewhat. Given the relatively small population of First Nations reserves, say 200 on reserve, of those, maybe 20-30 of those hunt, of those maybe 5-10 spot light. I just think it's hard for a relatively small group of hunters "hammer" an area with hunting pressure.
Take Churn Creek for example. I went for a hunting trip on the long weekend (I usually avoid the Gang/Churn areas at these times) to show a buddy some of my old hunting areas and we past maybe 20 trucks with hunters and another 30 camps. If you haven't guessed it by now, my buddy and I are First Nations from a local band and we only saw non-native hunters.
One thing I can say for certain is that pressure by First Nations for moose in the Cariboo region is high.

Blackdome

[ElkMasterC]

Well, what's your opinion, then, as someone on the "other side" of the issue (although I suspect we agree on a lot of things, judging by your calm, and informative post).

I gets frustrating when the general public is spending time and money filling out LEH ballots, planning trips, waiting for that letter to come from the Ministry, or taking time off work for General open Seasons (GOS's), only to finally get out to hunt camp and see nothing.

You have to admit there's a lot of (yes, sometimes circumstantial ) evidence that there's rampant poaching, night hunting, and pit-lamping going on. I have not witnessed it here, but I have in Ontario, and it wasn't pretty. I have a further tale from a Elk Foundation Member (a professional Forester) that personally witnessed two truckloads of FN individuals coming out of Indian Arm a few years back with a whole herd of Elk in the back of the trucks.
In the morning.
That was the whole seed herd that the foundation spent tens of thousands of raised money to transplant in there. They wiped out the whole herd and drove off, Scot-Free. (Ugh...now I'm gonna get it from the Scots;-))

Do you think the Local Band should do more to prevent/punish this?
I'd be fine with that, if they were fair to all.
If not, would the FN's that disapprove of this behaviour be in favor of everyone living under the same rules? And the same punishment for all?

I am sorry if any of my words offended you, but we ALL need more clarity, openness and hard facts on this issue.

Both sides are crying "foul!"

I'd appreciate your input.

[mpotzold]

IMO The unusually mild weather

[TimberPig]

One thing I can say for certain is that pressure by First Nations for moose in the Cariboo region is high.

Blackdome

This is definitely putting it mildly.

The First Nations pressure on deer is certainly much lower, but that is primarily because of the increased effort put on hunting moose.

Even using your relatively conservative numbers, it is entirely possible to produce significant effects upon localized areas of the population of a given species. When one area becomes harder to find game in, move on to another area. If the population is not allowed to recover adequately, it can become difficult to find the given species in that area for a time, no matter what the source of the pressure is.

[frenchbar]

I agree that any type of "night hunting" as unethical and dangerous, but to assume that only the local natives are the culprits is wrong.
The rumours usually start with "my buddy was talking to a so and so and he said "yada yada".
Well, my buddy was talking to a CO in the Williams Lake area a few years back and the CO said that they caught more Non-natives hunting at night than First Nations.

Elkmaster,
I agree that hunting with a night light hunting is wrong.
As for hunting with bow and arrows, I don't agree with your reasoning. Cultures are ever adapting. Heck I don't think First Nations were the first to use the Bow and arrow. With your reasoning, First Nations would not be allowed to use them. First Nations cultures have adapted to everything from horses to Pit lamps. Pit lamps being on the extreme side of the spectrum. The bottom line is people in general are lazy and if there is an easier way to put meat in the freezer (via pit lamping) they will use it.

TimberPig,

I disagree with this statement somewhat. Given the relatively small population of First Nations reserves, say 200 on reserve, of those, maybe 20-30 of those hunt, of those maybe 5-10 spot light. I just think it's hard for a relatively small group of hunters "hammer" an area with hunting pressure.
Take Churn Creek for example. I went for a hunting trip on the long weekend (I usually avoid the Gang/Churn areas at these times) to show a buddy some of my old hunting areas and we past maybe 20 trucks with hunters and another 30 camps. If you haven't guessed it by now, my buddy and I are First Nations from a local band and we only saw non-native hunters.
One thing I can say for certain is that pressure by First Nations for moose in the Cariboo region is high.

Blackdome Welcome to the site Blackdome.Couldnt agree more in what you posted.

[blackdome]

ElkMasterC,
I can understand your frustration. (sorry to say, not from experience) I have very limit..., ok, non-existant experience with LEH forms etc..and quite honestly many First Nations take our hunting and fishing rights for granted. There will come a time, maybe we're there, when FN harvesting of game will have to be regulated. This is opens a another can of worms as to who, where, how and when this will take place. Especially, as FN populations increase.
I have some friends that apply for LEH's in some areas out west and the number of tags given out by the Ministry in some areas seemed unrealistic. Could the ministry be setting up people for failure? I have a buddy who got a LEH in a region out west and didn't even bother to go because of the timing of the permit (after the rut). I suppose the ministry has a better grasp of moose populations than I do.
Well, it's a sad thing, killing a desired Elk population before they have a chance. It happen here in the Cariboo in the Late 80's. FN's from a local band, shot 6 elk that were transplanted at night in a Farmer's field.
I think local bands should do more, but right now they don't have much power. The bands are run like a municipality with Federal gov't funds. Perhaps after treaties, with some form of self government FN's may have the power to manage hunting and fishing within their territories. I read in a recent hunting magazine about how the blood reserve in Alberta is managing game on reserve lands and is able to run it's own guide outfitter. Apparently, Mule deer and Whitetails are thriving and producing some excellent hunting. The blood reserve is a fairly large reserve, 60 x 20 miles, so they have the land base to manage.
Sidetracked, I agree FN should regulate and punish offenders, but I"m not sure if they have the power to do so yet.
I hope this answer has been a little insightful.

TimberPig,
Agreed, High moose pressure, low deer pressure.
My numbers are totally unscientific, just a quick estimate in my head of my own FN band and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Blackdome

[TimberPig]

ElkMasterC,
I can understand your frustration. (sorry to say, not from experience) I have very limit..., ok, non-existant experience with LEH forms etc..and quite honestly many First Nations take our hunting and fishing rights for granted. There will come a time, maybe we're there, when FN harvesting of game will have to be regulated. This is opens a another can of worms as to who, where, how and when this will take place. Especially, as FN populations increase.
I have some friends that apply for LEH's in some areas out west and the number of tags given out by the Ministry in some areas seemed unrealistic. Could the ministry be setting up people for failure? I have a buddy who got a LEH in a region out west and didn't even bother to go because of the timing of the permit (after the rut). I suppose the ministry has a better grasp of moose populations than I do.
Well, it's a sad thing, killing a desired Elk population before they have a chance. It happen here in the Cariboo in the Late 80's. FN's from a local band, shot 6 elk that were transplanted at night in a Farmer's field.
I think local bands should do more, but right now they don't have much power. The bands are run like a municipality with Federal gov't funds. Perhaps after treaties, with some form of self government FN's may have the power to manage hunting and fishing within their territories. I read in a recent hunting magazine about how the blood reserve in Alberta is managing game on reserve lands and is able to run it's own guide outfitter. Apparently, Mule deer and Whitetails are thriving and producing some excellent hunting. The blood reserve is a fairly large reserve, 60 x 20 miles, so they have the land base to manage.
Sidetracked, I agree FN should regulate and punish offenders, but I"m not sure if they have the power to do so yet.
I hope this answer has been a little insightful.

TimberPig,
Agreed, High moose pressure, low deer pressure.
My numbers are totally unscientific, just a quick estimate in my head of my own FN band and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

Blackdome

Blackdome,

I have to say that response shows a very sound, rounded view of things. You are obviously far more progressive and realize that you can benefit more by working within the system to your own advantage than trying to work against it. Too bad there are many that fall into the latter category, hence the present mess.

I have to agree that some form of regulation/management to ensure that First Nations harvesting of the fish and wildlife resource is balanced and sustainable is going to have to come into play at some time in the future, hopefully not before it is too late. This would greatly help in cracking down on the small percentage of individuals who are the majority of the problem. The majority of FN individuals exercise their rights to utilize the resource only to the extent they and their family need. Unfortunately a small percent feel they need to take more, including to the extreme point of illegal sales of game, pit lamping etc.

At the present time though, the CO's are basically unable to do anything even when problems occur. Perhaps if the band was reporting the individuals causing the problems, they might be less hesitant to try and tackle an obvious problem that is benefiting no one, especially not the resource.

[bad arrow]

blackdome said; I think local bands should do more, but right now they don't have much power. The bands are run like a municipality with Federal gov't funds. Perhaps after treaties, with some form of self government FN's may have the power to manage hunting and fishing within their territories
Why wait until some form of government help, you and other FN have been independant for thousands of years. If you're waiting for the man to help you find a solution then its doomed to failure. howcome a solution cannot be found within you're own community, without spending 1 dime, by using traditional method's like elder influence etc. Other bands have done this, hunting at night is a sin against the creator, whoever hunts with a light has no respect for any animal or the community which they live, no matter race. Self government is something that has always been, but now it is gone for a variety of reason's. Sorry if I'm sounding to simplistic, don't wait for treaties, or the man for any help cause there wont be any

[CanuckShooter]

blackdome said; I think local bands should do more, but right now they don't have much power. The bands are run like a municipality with Federal gov't funds. Perhaps after treaties, with some form of self government FN's may have the power to manage hunting and fishing within their territories
Why wait until some form of government help, you and other FN have been independant for thousands of years. If you're waiting for the man to help you find a solution then its doomed to failure. howcome a solution cannot be found within you're own community, without spending 1 dime, by using traditional method's like elder influence etc. Other bands have done this, hunting at night is a sin against the creator, whoever hunts with a light has no respect for any animal or the community which they live, no matter race. Self government is something that has always been, but now it is gone for a variety of reason's. Sorry if I'm sounding to simplistic, don't wait for treaties, or the man for any help cause there wont be any

Who is to say they aren't managing it now?? Perhaps it really doesn't make much difference to the community if they kill the animal during the daylight hours or under a high power light..dead is dead, meat is meat. Perhaps they couldn't care less if the animal was snared/speared or shot with a high powered rifle??? Sometimes it seems kinda funny that the FN that live there year round are expected to share local resources with outsiders that want to restrict their hunting/gathering??

[wetcoasthunter]

Sometimes it seems kinda funny that the FN that live there year round are expected to share local resources with outsiders that want to restrict their hunting/gathering??

Outsiders??!! I thought we are all Canadians/British Columbians?? This type of attitude is exactly the f'in problem, different rules for different people based on race. Others that think I have less of a right to a resource because I am not a local or not a native can get bent.

[CanuckShooter]

Outsiders??!! I thought we are all Canadians/British Columbians?? This type of attitude is exactly the f'in problem, different rules for different people based on race. Others that think I have less of a right to a resource because I am not a local or not a native can get bent.

We are, no offense intended, just trying to look at the issue from a few different angles. Just a few hundred years ago [perhaps less] the FN had exclusive unrestricted hunting where they live...now-a-days..some of us want them on LEH...under regulations..etc WHY? So we can have more to spread out amongst ourselves...kinda like they [previous governments] did with the land...we wanted more so kick them to the reserves. I would hazard a guess that the FN look at the issue more in the same manner we do with giving higher and higher allocations to guide outfitters while adding more restrictions for the locals {us}.?? Seems to me there is a parallell here.

The FN in the area have been hunting there for thousands of years [we're told] and some posters on this issue clearly believe that there has been a sudden increase in this activity that is negatively affecting the wildlife populations. The whole idea of 'sustenance' hunting is that your hunting to feed your family using your constitutionally protected hunting rights....so again I ask what difference does it make if you kill the animal at night, in the daylight [I don't agree with pit lamping because I think it's dangerous and unnecessary]...or if you shoot it with a high powered rifle or use a bow and arrow?? What difference does it make if you take your moose in June or Sept.?

[CheekyRick]

If you wanted to take that attitude, then ALL of us should be able to shoot what we want, when we want - does, bucks, cows, bulls, whatever.

the UNFORTUNATE thing is that now, people are a LOT less responsible and have a far greater impact on the environment than people 100 years or more ago. They were restricted by walking and by the range of their weaponry - now, we think nothing of travelling perhaps 100-200km in a day and shoot 200m for our target with rifles we could take out a herd in a few minutes. Think back 100 or 200 years and you could travel as far as you could walk or ride in a day, and we restricted to how much you could load a horse or carry, you'd also be restricted to anything within arrow range, which means closer to your quarry and ultimately less chance of a kill.

NOW is not THEN and never will be. We need consistent, fair and even controls for ALL parties, first-nations, canadians, pink, blue, yellow or green. It HAS to be an even playing field for all parties, as our wildlife is a natural resource that has to be managed carefully for all of our futures.

It's one thing that REALLY pisses me off is one rule for us, and one rule for them. Fair enough the 'white man' 'took over' their lands, but most, if not all, were bartered and traded for fairly and it's only now that they're realizing how much they missed out and want to change the rules. There is a lot the 'white man' has brought to Canada and it's sickening the perpetual whining that groups of people make when they are being catered for hand over fist.

Isn't it funny, and something that makes me think, how they 'respect the land', respect the wildlife and are at peace with their homeland - except, have you EVER seen a first nations township that's neat and tidy or that shows respect for their immediate environment? With advertising hoardings on first nations roadside property, houses in disrepair, a culture of laziness and entitlement and our government pandering to their every desire - from my limited experience it doesn't look good - I'm not trying to be stereotypical or racist - but EVERY SINGLE FIRST-NATIONS AREA that I have seen is like the above, whether it's in the Vancouver area, the island or the Cariboo region I went to - it feels like they're the ones that are raping the countryside and leaving a stinking mess!

Obviously i'm not tarring every single first-nations person with the same brush, it just seems to be that the MAJORITY ruin it for the MINORITY.

How I wish things were different!


We are, no offense intended, just trying to look at the issue from a few different angles. Just a few hundred years ago [perhaps less] the FN had exclusive unrestricted hunting where they live...now-a-days..some of us want them on LEH...under regulations..etc WHY? So we can have more to spread out amongst ourselves...kinda like they [previous governments] did with the land...we wanted more so kick them to the reserves. I would hazard a guess that the FN look at the issue more in the same manner we do with giving higher and higher allocations to guide outfitters while adding more restrictions for the locals {us}.?? Seems to me there is a parallell here.

The FN in the area have been hunting there for thousands of years [we're told] and some posters on this issue clearly believe that there has been a sudden increase in this activity that is negatively affecting the wildlife populations. The whole idea of 'sustenance' hunting is that your hunting to feed your family using your constitutionally protected hunting rights....so again I ask what difference does it make if you kill the animal at night, in the daylight [I don't agree with pit lamping because I think it's dangerous and unnecessary]...or if you shoot it with a high powered rifle or use a bow and arrow?? What difference does it make if you take your moose in June or Sept.?

[bad arrow]

Canuckshooter Writes : Perhaps it really doesn't make much difference to the community if they kill the animal during the daylight hours or under a high power light..dead is dead, meat is meat
Other than the immoral act of shooting something at night, "nothing I guess" Actually I'm not beating up on a FN right to hunt, I'm beating up on the waiting for some form of gov help to find a solution. I't would be easier to just read my post, than for me to copy and paste. I dont have a problem with FN hunting, its hunting with lights, and if a community does not have a problem with it then--- thats where the problem stems.

[MacK]

I was up in 5-3 back in October with a Bull tag, same thing saw few cows, managed 2 bucks but its pretty sad

[CanuckShooter]

Canuckshooter Writes : Perhaps it really doesn't make much difference to the community if they kill the animal during the daylight hours or under a high power light..dead is dead, meat is meat
Other than the immoral act of shooting something at night, "nothing I guess" Actually I'm not beating up on a FN right to hunt, I'm beating up on the waiting for some form of gov help to find a solution. I't would be easier to just read my post, than for me to copy and paste. I dont have a problem with FN hunting, its hunting with lights, and if a community does not have a problem with it then--- thats where the problem stems.

They built a subdivision with pig farms on three sides....never had a problem with the smell of pig sheet in the community until all the urban city dwellers moved into the houses ?? Who should change the new community members or the pig farmers...another dilly lemma?

To make it clear I don't support pit lamping....and I am jealous of FN hunting rights [particularily because I am non=status], but that is the law.

[Stresd]

Got my camera back so here are some pics. My brother and myself with over 80yrs of Moose hunting between us came to some conclusions. Interesting to hear what you think. Background info:
Pics taken end of Sept in 5.4 . Leh only in that area didn't start til the 10th of Sept and was for Bulls only.
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g86/Stresd/P1000218shrunk.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g86/Stresd/P1000212shrunk.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g86/Stresd/P1000217shrunk.jpg
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g86/Stresd/P1000214shrunk.jpg

[born2hunt]

well im all for the aboriginals having there rights but do it with tradition if they wanna hunt then widdle your bow from a fhkin branch and make ur canoe from a log if you wanna pit lamp do it with a cloth and flints to make fire and not with a rifle made by the white man nor a 35 hp johnston mounted on a zodiak that the government bought for you, are worst mistake was givin them reserves as soon as we did that we cancelled equality and opened our cheque books . I can tell you one thing if myself and a few of you went out and blocked a road into some where along with swinging a gun around drinking beer we,d be in fhkin jail..

[ianwuzhere]

Isn't it funny, and something that makes me think, how they 'respect the land', respect the wildlife and are at peace with their homeland - except, have you EVER seen a first nations township that's neat and tidy or that shows respect for their immediate environment? With advertising hoardings on first nations roadside property, houses in disrepair, a culture of laziness and entitlement and our government pandering to their every desire - from my limited experience it doesn't look good - I'm not trying to be stereotypical or racist - but EVERY SINGLE FIRST-NATIONS AREA that I have seen is like the above, whether it's in the Vancouver area, the island or the Cariboo region I went to - it feels like they're the ones that are raping the countryside and leaving a stinking mess!




Very well said Rick. I dont go downtown prince george anymore solely due to the attitude and what many of first nation people have done to the downtown. Last time i was down there i was called f!@#ing whitey because i did not spare any change for a drunk FN. it all comes back to respect and thats why its especially important we respect the areas which we hunt and keep the Tim horton cups or beer cans off the dirt roads and back in the vehicles we brought them out.
I see nothing wrong with FN hunting when they need the meat to feed their family no matter what time of year it is, disagree with pitlamping but would also agree if the FN gave back to the community with respect and/or a yearly fee of some kind to be given to the wildlife federation to help maintain animal numbers and healthy environment for everything as well.
We can only take and take for so long, its not the 1800's anymore, ya know??

[blackdome]

Geez, where do I start. It's a common theme in any thread regarding FN topics to become too broad with people sharing their generalizations and, sorry to say, stereotypes.
How can you judge a particular race on what you see in a downtown setting where your exposed to the worse FN people have to offer. There are also non-aboriginal street people. Maybe people aren't understanding the situation.

Honestly, How many people here know that 70% of all aboriginals live below the line of poverty in Canada?

Just so you know I'm not pulling these numbers out of my nose.


from 1996 when almost two-thirds of Saskatoon's
Aboriginal population (64 per cent) lived below the poverty line.
http://announcements.usask.ca/news/archive/2005/02/aboriginal_pove.html

These living standards bring a host of sociological problems. Every thing from sexual and physical abuse to suicide (which is five to six times higher than those of thier aboriginal peers. www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/mr131-e.htm )


except, have you EVER seen a first nations township that's neat and tidy or that shows respect for their immediate environment?

Now, given the same living conditions as above, say in a trailer park of any human beings, would you expect to see a different environment?
I think not.

I agree that the wellfare system can sometimes breed a habit of co-dependance and laziness amongst those who recieve it. It's a cycle of we as FN are working hard to break.

Given these huge tasks FN are battling, where do you think the management of hunting rights on the priority scale rate? That right, close to bottom. There are bigger issues to deal with and many FN communities don't have the resources required.



Last time i was down there i was called f!@#ing whitey because i did not spare any change for a drunk FN.

Racism is a two way street. I'm hear racist slurs once or twice a year.I've been called a "friK#n N*gg#r or "Indian" by people driving by or a group of guys walking along a street. I'm there's someone out there cursing racial profanities at the computer as I write this. BUT, I have the pleasure of knowing too many non-aboriginal people that have already made a positive influence in my life to hate any race. If it's not being a jew, black or Protestant, indifference will alway be here and someone will always find a reason to hate you.


Fair enough the 'white man' 'took over' their lands, but most, if not all, were bartered and traded for fairly and it's only now that they're realizing how much they missed out and want to change the rules.


That's not the case in BC. Land was not traded for and Treaties were not signed, except for the Douglas treaty on the Island.

blackdome

[CheekyRick]

Hi BlackDome.

I appreciate the informative comments you made, I believe that my opinions are formed from what I see and what I hear. I am from England, and only arrived about 4-5 years ago, I'm white and I'm 33 with a wife and a 10 month old daughter (there's a bit of background for you!).

I'm a big, a huge, believer, in supporting people who want to help themselves. One thing I am against, is the culture of entitlement. I believe you get out of life what you put in, and you don't get something for nothing.

So, sitting on the sidelines, viewing first nations properties up and down Vancouver Island, in the lower mainland, in the Cariboo regions around Williams Lake, it's frustrating to see that the MAJORITY of FN properties are run down, with crap all over the place, rusty cars rotting in the front gardens, their property unmaintained, the buildings in disrepair, the FN attitude (and a good friend of mine is FN so I'm not saying ALL, but MOST) of entitlement, and the catch 22 of "I can't get a job because I don't have the skills, and I can't get the skills because I don't have a job", so instead of doing something about it, they do nothing and blame everyone else.

BUT

I also believe it's a two sided fence, FN needs help in moving forwards, but with lethargic communities I can see the difficulties, government want to be supportive, but what the FN are doing is alienating the rest of Canada, it appears to be hindsighted land grabs and constant whineing when they are not doing anything internally to help themselves and asking Canadians, and government, to aid themselves in fixing themselves.

I only know a tiny bit about FN culture, but it seems their structure of respect for the land, for elders, for others seems to have completely waned. No-one wants to help someone who's coming out cap in hand. Do you support a beggar by giving them cash, only for them to spend it on alcohol and drugs, or do you teach them to support themselves in the hope that they get better?

I've actually been told to go back to the country I come from, by rednecks and by FN, and whilst being white does stop a lot of the inner racism - I still have to deal with a lot of hearing 'F*cking immigrants taking all of our jobs' (funny when I hear that and that this is a country built on immigrations!) before people realize that I'm not a Canadian. I was actually a cop in the middle of Manchester, a huge multi-cultural boiling pot, where it was hugely reported if a group of white guys threw racist slurs at east asians, but never reported the other way round. Looking at the stats, there was actually 4 x more east asian on white racist crime than the other way round - as well as the classic line if I stopped anyone who wasn't white was "you're stopping me because I'm black/asian/east asian/pink/yellow/blue".

As a fairly recent newcomer to Canada, I'm just trying to understand it, and see it as I see it, and it appears from my limited experience and passing that the majority of FN peoples have no respect for themselves, no respect for their property, no respect for their land, nor traditions of their ancestors,
and have that dreaded culture of entitlement.

I realize that people, in the past, when coming to Canada have made mistakes, a quick look in Wiki at the history of conflict between Europeans and aboriginal peoples substantiates that. But has someone who has been involved in a fair amount of PR, the FN really have shot themselves in the foot and that is why they are not supported in what they want to achieve.

IF FN people came out, showed Canadians that they're the opposite of what they're portraying (above), I'm sure they would have a HUGE following - you only have to look at how open the gay community is (especially in Vancouver) compared to somewhere like England, to see that it can work - its just the FN really needs to get themselves sorted out and figure out what they want - do they want equal rights, which means you have to have the same rights and expectations as all Canadians (look at hunting for example), or do you want special rights, and then complain when they're treated differently. I believe in fair, open, even and rights for everyone despite race, gender, sexual orientation - but to get those rights, you have to expect to abide by the same expectations as everyone else.

What is it the FN want, and do you REALLY think they are heading in the right direction to get what they want?

(Sorry for rambling, had a few wines :-) )

[Theo722]

Hi,
I'm a new hunter with no family hunting background. T'sall new.
I'm quite deflated to read about the stuff going on.
I'm also an immagrant from 33 years ago and my first racism experiance was when I was called a F***in Whiteman while fishing as a 10 year old. Not knowing the language I spent some time looking it up.
Didn't thing shopping carts across directed streamflow in the Cap was fair, but I'm just white.

[blackdome]

CheekyRick,
Your experiences and views of FN lifestyles was a little disturbing.
I can't dispute your life experiences and good to hear another perspective.

I'm also married, 32 years old, and I have a 10 month old son.



What is it the FN want, and do you REALLY think they are heading in the right direction to get what they want?



Ok, I'll bite, I can't speak for all FN and I don't really want to open another can of worms. To keep it simple, I'm guessing we want to keep our culture and identity and want our own lands for future generations.
Are we headed in the right direction? I'm not sure. Their are pro's and cons of treaty.

Thanks, it's been interesting.

Blackdome

[rainman]

i started a thread about this in august,about fn in pink mountain and it got banned pretty quick,so get ready.

[CheekyRick]

Yea.. I think we better get off this topic, just to finish it though I do want to make it clear, as I've said it before, I believe in equality for all, but it must be complete equality, no matter what your colour, creed, attitude or even whether you like chocolate or not.

I can only really go on what I see (albeit limited to bc and a bit of alberta), and I wanted to put over that i was disappointed with majority what I saw being new to FN culture. I'm sure people like you blackdome will help push FN to better times and equality, and can only hope there are more people out there committed to doing the same.

Congrats on the 10 month old son, they're fantastic eh.. I was once told a great phrase "if you have a boy, you only have one dick to worry about.. if you have a girl, you have everyone elses to worry about!!", so she aint dating till she's 30 (especially if she dates guys like me!).


CheekyRick,
Your experiences and views of FN lifestyles was a little disturbing.
I can't dispute your life experiences and good to hear another perspective.

I'm also married, 32 years old, and I have a 10 month old son.



Ok, I'll bite, I can't speak for all FN and I don't really want to open another can of worms. To keep it simple, I'm guessing we want to keep our culture and identity and want our own lands for future generations.
Are we headed in the right direction? I'm not sure. Their are pro's and cons of treaty.

Thanks, it's been interesting.

Blackdome

[blackdome]

CheekyRick,


I'm sure people like you blackdome will help push FN to better times and equality, and can only hope there are more people out there committed to doing the same.

Thanks,



Congrats on the 10 month old son, they're fantastic eh.. I was once told a great phrase "if you have a boy, you only have one dick to worry about.. if you have a girl, you have everyone elses to worry about!!", so she aint dating till she's 30 (especially if she dates guys like me!).



Yeah, my son is the joy of my life. He keeps me on my toes.
That's funny, I haven't heard that one.
later

Blackdome

[kripp]

Is pitlamping and poaching really going on?! Wake up and smell the gutpile boys! Of course it is and not just region 5 either. Every region is being robbed, and allthough I am not familliar with your area I am sure the same thing goes on up there as it does on the island. Damm FN rape this province not only in season but all year long. You could say I have an ear in on one such rezervation, and they are ruthless. It sickens me to know that my two sons will never have the opportunity to even see an elk or moose because of these buggers and the way they destroy our province with there so-called "self-regulation". I can think of one season i'd like to see open--hmmmmm.

[Andy83]

It is a shame that some people choose to take advantage of what they are given to such vile purposes. Makes me sad that people would choose to do this. I know not all FN are like that. I would like to see equality across the board. No special treatments for any particular group. Special rules for certian groups based on ethnicity only promote racism.

[Glassman]

I didn't know that saying a person was an "indian" is rascist. The indians need to get over the fact that they are a conquered people and should be happy that they as a nation are still alive and not extinct. It could be worse, like what happened in Rawanda some years ago where 800,000 got murdered in what was called "ethnic cleansing" largely supported and done by catholic and protestant religions. Here in Canada the catholics abused the indians, over-there they actually hacked them to death with hoes and machetes.

[RJ]

no good can come from reviving this thread :-?

[Glassman]

Learn from the past and then hopefully don't do it again in the future.

[Andy83]

I didn't know that saying a person was an "indian" is rascist. The indians need to get over the fact that they are a conquered people and should be happy that they as a nation are still alive and not extinct. It could be worse, like what happened in Rawanda some years ago where 800,000 got murdered in what was called "ethnic cleansing" largely supported and done by catholic and protestant religions. Here in Canada the catholics abused the indians, over-there they actually hacked them to death with hoes and machetes.

Its lucky for them that they weren't conquored by the spaniards. Look what the spaniards did to the mayans and the incas. In mexico, native mayans dont have special native rights. And there are no more incas.