6 pt bull Elk in the EK - did you see one this year?

[Kody94]

BroJack's comments on the other thread about the number of 5 points in the EK got me thinking. Are most of the guys I know just excellent elk hunters, are 6 points are far more rare than I think they are, and is BroJack's experience a lot more common than I think it is???

So I thought I'd post this quick poll and see what the collective experience of the forum members here was in the EK this season.

TIA for playing along

ps: By "seeing" a bull, I include glassing them at a distance, fleeting glances in the thick stuff, hunting with a partner that got one etc. Doesn't mean you had a good crack at one.

Cheers
4Ster

[aletheuo]

Yeah - Oct 21. :roll:

[eastkoot]

I saw 6 (yes SIX) legal bulls this year and actually missed the one that I did shoot at, I've never missed an elk before !! Anyway, I don't know what BJ is doing wrong, I'm getting old and don't trek like I used to and still manage to see my quota. Lots of 4's and 5's but they will grow up to harvest in the future.. Have fun with them regardless..They are there, honest..

[brotherjack]

Yeah - Oct 21. :roll:


I don't think out of season counts! :)

[Jetboater]

I saw quite a few 6 points... watched my wife whack one...watched my dad and his partner miss one on the road... saw lots of road hunters drive right past 6 points as well...

I think the one thing I have learned in 16 years in the kottenays is the bulls are never in the same area as they were the year before...you have to adapt and be able to get off the beaten track or off the road...

it is called hunting ... not just shooting..

[eastkoot]

Been chasing mulies in the south country last few weeks and you would be suprised at the number of bulls, sixes included, that are still alive and well. I wish a "good" muley was as easy to find as a six point elk..

[Husky7mm]

Been chasing mulies in the south country last few weeks and you would be suprised at the number of bulls, sixes included, that are still alive and well. I wish a "good" muley was as easy to find as a six point elk..
amen to that, Should be a great elk year next year but WTF is up with the mulies

[brotherjack]

I must just hunt on another planet or sumpthin... no elk on my planet, but lots of mulies....

:)

[Fisher-Dude]

I watched one 320 class 6 point up HIGHER than the friggin' goats! And he wouldn't budge. Maybe I could have crawled up and shot him, but he would have been a busted up bag of mush by the time he stopped rolling down the mountain. This one is included in eastkoot's count too, as he cursed at the same bull for being in such a BAD spot!

[ELKOHOLICBC]

In my two weeks of hunting reg. 4 for elk I saw alive 6 6pts most glassing in evening hunts and I got a crack at one on my last morning the wife and dad slept in so I went alone. Long shot ranged it at 447 yrds. Clean miss spent hour and a half looking no blood or hair. In our camp there were 6 nice quality 6pts hanging and also during those days I saw a total of another 12 different dead 6pts in other camps and guys trucks. So im sure this has to do with alot of the different opinions on this topic.For the past 10 years of hunting Reg 4 I have seen at least 1 6pt every year. Reg 4 is a big area and im sure theres more 6pts in some areas then others. I don't think you need a 5pt or 3pt season in all of reg 4. But how do you determine that I don't know. Any opinions?

[hunter1947]

I saw 4 bulls that had 6 on one side this year ,more so then any other year from the last 10 years hunting in region 4-4.

[BCrams]

I saw 4 bulls that had 6 on one side this year ,more so then any other year from the last 10 years hunting in region 4-4.

Your hunting style and choice of area will reflect what you see and how much you see.

[BCrams]

I don't think you need a 5pt or 3pt season in all of reg 4. But how do you determine that I don't know. Any opinions?

You have a population at carrying capacity. The elk herds are in a situation where they are susceptible to another big die off reminiscent of the mid 90's.

The 6 pt regulation was put in effect "only for the recovery of the herds" - this is over and was successful.

Now do you have a solution? Keeping things the same will not make hunting better or the same - it will get worse and when that 'worse' hits .... hunters like yourself, hunter1947 and a whole slew of others on here and not on here etc will be to blame............not the bio's.

[springpin]

Saw some elk. But no 6'ers

[hunter1947]

Your hunting style and choice of area will reflect what you see and how much you see.

I just know what I saw in the area I hunt and thats what counts to me as an elk hunter :smile:.

[Husky7mm]

I must just hunt on another planet or sumpthin... no elk on my planet, but lots of mulies....

:)
Sorry there are high concentrations of mulies in certian areas, but it has been hard to find a buck over 3.5 yrs of age. :wink:
I agree with hunter47 on the amount of 6points this yr.
I believe we all have different hunting priorities, if it is in elk we like to see stable to increasing herds, ie maintianing 6point regulations is helping that. If you want to see high populations of moose than that person wouldnt be supportive of a calf season.:idea:
I could just hear the rants if some great mulie areas were opened to any buck all season long and quality of mature deer dropped of due to an increased havest of younger bucks, or perhapes the outrage of a gos of half curl rams or a genorus leh ewe. The folks who care about big bucks and big rams would be floored:eek: (me included)

[BCrams]

Sorry there are high concentrations of mulies in certian areas, but it has been hard to find a buck over 3.5 yrs of age. :wink:
I agree with hunter47 on the amount of 6points this yr.
I believe we all have different hunting priorities, if it is in elk we like to see stable to increasing herds, ie maintianing 6point regulations is helping that.

How many times does this need to be highlighted for hunters to get with the program:


ELK IN THE KOOTENAYS ARE AT OR BEYOND CARRYING CAPACITY.

THE LAND BASE CANNOT SUPPORT MORE ELK.

WINTER RANGE HABITAT IS BEING OVER USED... OTHER SPECIES ARE AFFECTED (DEER AND IN PARTICULAR - SHEEP)

KEEPING THE 6pt REGULATION WILL BE DETRIMENTAL TO THE OVERALL HEALTH OF THE ELK HERD. If you want to see high populations of moose than that person wouldnt be supportive of a calf season.:idea:

7a has plenty of moose as it is and is sustainable........has been for over 30 yrs.

I could just hear the rants if some great mulie areas were opened to any buck all season long and quality of mature deer dropped of due to an increased havest of younger bucks,

4 pt regulations on mule deer bucks DO NOT CREATE MORE OR BIGGER BUCKS .......

or perhapes the outrage of a gos of half curl rams or a genorus leh ewe.

Some species obviously need regualations........

The folks who care about big bucks and big rams would be floored:eek: (me included)

I care about big bucks probably as much as anyone or more. Believe me ... I am in the camp that knows 4 pt regulations are not the answer for big bucks.

[Fisher-Dude]

I believe we all have different hunting priorities, if it is in elk we like to see stable to increasing herds, ie maintianing 6point regulations is helping that.

So what you're basically saying is, you have no concept of what carrying capacity means. What I need you to do is turn your TV on, and put a coffee cup on top of it. Now, start pouring coffee into the cup from your coffeepot. Don't stop when the cup is full (ie at carrying capacity), just keep pouring. Ooops, what happened to your TV? A disaster? Same thing you want to happen with the elk. :sad:

[BCrams]

So what you're basically saying is, you have no concept of what carrying capacity means. What I need you to do is turn your TV on, and put a coffee cup on top of it. Now, start pouring coffee into the cup from your coffeepot. Don't stop when the cup is full (ie at carrying capacity), just keep pouring. Ooops, what happened to your TV? A disaster? Same thing you want to happen with the elk. :sad:

One of the best analogies I've heard in a long time!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

If you want to see high populations of moose than that person wouldnt be supportive of a calf season.:idea:


I have the moose management strategy study for BC done by Ecodomain Consulting. 7A with its variety of seasons, including calf seasons, is cited as the best model we have in BC for managing moose herds. 7A produces MORE moose than all the other regions in BC combined (harvest in 7A is over 50% of the province's moose harvest), and provides the most hunting opportunities. Most opportunity, highest harvest, most moose. Go figure.

[Husky7mm]

Ya ya I know I'm wrong your right. All the poor elk have nothing to eat, and wacking and stacking 1 and two year old bucks definatly increases the population of deer living to be wiser and mature. And for sure some species obviously need regualations, perticulaly the ones sought for trophy quality and your opinon is the only correct view on this, here we go agian.....:roll:

[Fisher-Dude]

Ya ya I know I'm wrong your right. All the poor elk have nothing to eat, and wacking and stacking 1 and two year old bucks definatly increases the population of deer living to be wiser and mature. And for sure some species obviously need regualations, perticulaly the ones sought for trophy quality and your opinon is the only correct view on this, here we go agian.....:roll:

One question: have you read any of the studies done by the professional biologists on the management of game in BC? BCR and I have.

[GoatGuy]

Sorry there are high concentrations of mulies in certian areas, but it has been hard to find a buck over 3.5 yrs of age. :wink:
I agree with hunter47 on the amount of 6points this yr.
I believe we all have different hunting priorities, if it is in elk we like to see stable to increasing herds, ie maintianing 6point regulations is helping that. If you want to see high populations of moose than that person wouldnt be supportive of a calf season.:idea:
I could just hear the rants if some great mulie areas were opened to any buck all season long and quality of mature deer dropped of due to an increased havest of younger bucks, or perhapes the outrage of a gos of half curl rams or a genorus leh ewe. The folks who care about big bucks and big rams would be floored:eek: (me included)

Here's one of my favorite quotes:

"APRs [antler point restrictions] have been tried in most western states, but have failed to produce the desired results despite their popularity with the pbulic. APRs have increased post-hunt buck:doe ratios in some areas due to a reduction in hunters in those areas, but have almost universally failed to increase the number or proportion of mature bucks (which is why most hunters support APRs). A signifciant illeagl harvest of bucks not meeting the antler criteria was reporated in all APR trials, which defeats the purpose of the restrictions. Antler restrictions do not produce more deer or larger-anltered deer, only reducing legal harvest in hunt structure will accomplish that goal."

Mule Deer Conservation: Issues and Management Strategies

All of your comments, including sheep are wrong particularly when you look at how, when and why big rams grow. The regulations aren't doing what you think they're doing.

[GoatGuy]

BroJack's comments on the other thread about the number of 5 points in the EK got me thinking. Are most of the guys I know just excellent elk hunters, are 6 points are far more rare than I think they are, and is BroJack's experience a lot more common than I think it is???

So I thought I'd post this quick poll and see what the collective experience of the forum members here was in the EK this season.

TIA for playing along

ps: By "seeing" a bull, I include glassing them at a distance, fleeting glances in the thick stuff, hunting with a partner that got one etc. Doesn't mean you had a good crack at one.

Cheers
4Ster


Remember, the actual ability of hunters varies - time spent hunting (in years) really has very little with a hunters ability to hunt.



I think the flights show exactly how many class IV bulls there are.

Just like other species and 'trophy' animals, they're out there but dare I say most hunters often won't harvest them for one reason or another.

Elk are a meat and potato species; the harvesting regime should reflect this.

[Sitkaspruce]

So what you're basically saying is, you have no concept of what carrying capacity means. What I need you to do is turn your TV on, and put a coffee cup on top of it. Now, start pouring coffee into the cup from your coffeepot. Don't stop when the cup is full (ie at carrying capacity), just keep pouring. Ooops, what happened to your TV? A disaster? Same thing you want to happen with the elk. :sad:

LOL!!!!!! I just about spit out my beverage on that one!!!! I agree with Rams, one of the best analogies I have heard in a long...long time!!!!!

Thanks for the laugh.....and oh yea, I fully agree.


I have the moose management strategy study for BC done by Ecodomain Consulting. 7A with its variety of seasons, including calf seasons, is cited as the best model we have in BC for managing moose herds. 7A produces MORE moose than all the other regions in BC combined (harvest in 7A is over 50% of the province's moose harvest), and provides the most hunting opportunities. Most opportunity, highest harvest, most moose. Go figure.

Some folks just do not get wildlife mgmt and all that goes with it. I found that report to be pretty good and if I did not already know most of it, it would have enlightened me a lot. I recommend for ALL moose hunters to read it. Pretty interesting stuff.

Cheers

SS

[Fisher-Dude]

All the poor elk have nothing to eat, and wacking and stacking 1 and two year old bucks definatly increases the population of deer living to be wiser and mature.

http://www.fpb.gov.bc.ca/complaints/IRC144/IRC144_ml.pdf


Grassland habitats were over-used in the early 1990s when elk and white-tailed deer populations were likely lower than they are today. Overgrazing continues to be an issue today, particularly on ranges used year‐round by the non-migratory Trench elk. In addition, MFR has indicated that, overall, both availability of forage and grassland condition have continued to decline since the 1990s, even with a temporary elk and deer population crash. The administrative assignment of forage between cattle and wildlife has not changed (it remains at 25 percent to each). These factors indicate that grassland carrying capacity continues to be
exceeded by the current combination of both wildlife and cattle.


Finding

Elk and deer numbers have increased over the past decade. It appears that the combination of wildlife and cattle use continues to exceed the carrying capacity of the grassland ecosystem.

[Husky7mm]

Perhapes all the armchair management specialist should all go to work for the MOE if they feel so strongly about this:lol:

[GoatGuy]

Perhapes all the armchair management specialist should all go to work for the MOE if they feel so strongly about this:lol:

And deal with this?

Not a chance.


Rather clean outhouses with my hands.

[Kody94]

Remember, the actual ability of hunters varies - time spent hunting (in years) really has very little with a hunters ability to hunt.



I think the flights show exactly how many class IV bulls there are.

Just like other species and 'trophy' animals, they're out there but dare I say most hunters often won't harvest them for one reason or another.

Elk are a meat and potato species; the harvesting regime should reflect this.

Remember, the ONLY point of this thread was to see if BroJack's experience of not seeing ANY legal bulls is truly a reflection of 90% of elk hunters, as he was making it out to be. Since my observation is nearly the polar opposite and I couldn't imagine that my perspective was that FAR from the mainstream, I figured it was worth a poll...

The poll/thread has SFA to do with the sustainability or suitability of a continued 6 pt season in the EK.

I do have a question though and not because I disagree (ie I don't), its just that one little comment above makes me wonder....who decides what species are "meat and potato" species?

It seems to me that the people should decide what species gets managed for volume (assuming thats what you mean by meat and potatoes) and what gets managed for quality (either "trophy" or "experience")...and that it doesn't have to be the same across the province necessarily.

[Fisher-Dude]

If you're suggesting that elk should be managed as a "trophy species" rather than a "meat and potatoes species", then wouldn't you rather have fewer elk competing for the available food sources, thus ensuring a nutrition level that favours growth of trophy animals? Look at the lakes you fish - the ones with millions of little trout/low feed levels versus the low-population/high food source "trophy lakes" that have the lunkers in them.

It would seem that a lower population of elk would favour growth of larger animals. Maybe we're all going to benefit from harvesting a few more animals. ;)

[Kody94]

If you're suggesting that elk should be managed as a "trophy species" rather than a "meat and potatoes species", then wouldn't you rather have fewer elk competing for the available food sources, thus ensuring a nutrition level that favours growth of trophy animals? Look at the lakes you fish - the ones with millions of little trout/low feed levels versus the low-population/high food source "trophy lakes" that have the lunkers in them.

It would seem that a lower population of elk would favour growth of larger animals. Maybe we're all going to benefit from harvesting a few more animals. ;)

I am not suggesting anything...is strictly a "procedural" type question. You might want to re-read what I typed....

I don't disagree with the rest of your comments.

[Fisher-Dude]

Animals are managed for opportunity under the allocation policy on a "relative importance" scale. Demand for moose in region 4, for example, is higher than grizzly bear in region 7B. Moose and elk are at the very high end of the relative importance scale because of their ability to feed a family. The scale is largely determined by the number of LEH applications versus available tags for these species.

[J_T]

SSSSTer, it would appear, regardless of your noble intentions, you are going to be unfavourably labelled, for what you do say, and for what you don't say. Not necessarily painted into a corner, but certainly judged and challenged. I assumed, you were merely taking a neutral position and looking to collect observations. Not state a position.

The "power of the internet" provides the opportunity to judge someone, without knowing them.

[GoatGuy]

Remember, the ONLY point of this thread was to see if BroJack's experience of not seeing ANY legal bulls is truly a reflection of 90% of elk hunters, as he was making it out to be. Since my observation is nearly the polar opposite and I couldn't imagine that my perspective was that FAR from the mainstream, I figured it was worth a poll...

The poll/thread has SFA to do with the sustainability or suitability of a continued 6 pt season in the EK.

I do have a question though and not because I disagree (ie I don't), its just that one little comment above makes me wonder....who decides what species are "meat and potato" species?

It seems to me that the people should decide what species gets managed for volume (assuming thats what you mean by meat and potatoes) and what gets managed for quality (either "trophy" or "experience")...and that it doesn't have to be the same across the province necessarily.

Sorry, I figured seeing as there's data on class IV bulls in region 4 assessing the 'rarity' of the animals isn't possible; the actual sighting and harvesting is left to the hunters abilities (physical and otherwise). What I'm trying to say is we know the number of 6 pts pre and post hunt. If hunters aren't finding and harvesting them it comes back to the hunter not the number of animals.

As far as sightings when you go through data a common expression is that 10% of the hunters shoot 90% of the game particularly when it comes to trophy animals (I use that term loosely). This is especially true when you look at K selected species. I'm sure you already know that. Your observation varies from BJ either because of where you hunt or how you hunt, not because of the number of 6 pts.

In my experience I've met several people who in 50 yrs of hunting have never shot a 4 pt mule deer, 4 pt wt or a 6 pt bull elk. I know a fellow who has harvested 19 elk, not one of the a 6 point.



Hunters decide what is a meat and potato specie is and today most of that has been regulated by conservation. The stats on demand are pretty clear - at times it becomes somewhat obscured and less representative as we move down through 'public consultation' chain.

So far as other species go there was a time when sheep were not considered a trophy species for locals - however, vertical pressure from people outside and inside BC demanded more trophy opportunity thus squeezing the average sheep hunter out. It's happening with other species as well. Ironically enough, all the regulations in the world haven't helped those guys.

[GoatGuy]

SSSSTer, it would appear, regardless of your noble intentions, you are going to be unfavourably labelled, for what you do say, and for what you don't say. Not necessarily painted into a corner, but certainly judged and challenged. I assumed, you were merely taking a neutral position and looking to collect observations. Not state a position.

The "power of the internet" provides the opportunity to judge someone, without knowing them.

SSSter hasn't been labeled at all.

Seems like a thinker to me.

[goatdancer]

I have the moose management strategy study for BC done by Ecodomain Consulting. 7A with its variety of seasons, including calf seasons, is cited as the best model we have in BC for managing moose herds. 7A produces MORE moose than all the other regions in BC combined (harvest in 7A is over 50% of the province's moose harvest), and provides the most hunting opportunities. Most opportunity, highest harvest, most moose. Go figure.

Is that because of the hunting opportunities or is that because of other factors such as habitat?

[Fisher-Dude]

Is that because of the hunting opportunities or is that because of other factors such as habitat?

It's due to good management of the moose population by maintaining a healthy harvest of all age classes. We're not kicking the crap out of one part of the age/sex class, so we're maintaining good bull:cow ratios, and that in turn leads to good birthrates and good recruitment of animals from all age classes. Makes sense for ungulates province-wide, IMO.

[PGK]

http://www.fpb.gov.bc.ca/complaints/IRC144/IRC144_ml.pdf


Grassland habitats were over-

used in the early 1990s when elk and white-tailed deer populations were likely lower than they are today. Overgrazing continues to be an issue today, particularly on ranges used year‐round by the non-migratory Trench elk. In addition, MFR has indicated that, overall, both availability of forage and grassland condition have continued to decline since the 1990s, even with a temporary elk and deer population crash. The administrative assignment of forage between cattle and wildlife has not changed (it remains at 25 percent to each). These factors indicate that grassland carrying capacity continues to be
exceeded by the current combination of both wildlife and cattle.

Finding

Elk and deer numbers have increased over the past decade. It appears that the combination of wildlife and cattle use continues to exceed the carrying capacity of the grassland ecosystem.


Cattle and elk together are bad news. They eat the same stuff. IF the elk are really the priority, which we both know they're not...well....no point explaining any further is there?
The money's in the cattle. I'll bet five on the dollar the bios down there (knowing nothing about any of them) are hoping the population crashes again

[goatdancer]

Cattle and elk together are bad news. They eat the same stuff. IF the elk are really the priority, which we both know they're not...well....no point explaining any further is there?
The money's in the cattle. I'll bet five on the dollar the bios down there (knowing nothing about any of them) are hoping the population crashes again

I gotta agree with you there. Even in the Okanagan we have %$&# cows everywhere. Saw some the first week of November at about the 6000 ft mark. I understand the Ministry of Forests controls the cattle grazing and F&W gets the shaft. Its time the wildlife got a chance. Then the elk would population would have a better chance to increase.

[smoothbor]

We Hunted The Ek For 5 Days For Elk, Seen Numerous Bulls Lots Of Fives And Saw 4 Sixes And Harvested 2 Of Them