EK Elk herd bulls why so many 5x5's?

[riflebuilder]

I went for a drive this evening looking for some firewood. While out I saw 6 differnt herds of Elk, average 20 animals each. The biggest herd was over 50. A long story short every herd had at least 1 bull with them ALL WHERE 5 POINT BULLS. There is no way that these should all be 5 point herd bulls. I was able to glass the herds and had a good look at all the bulls. I hunted Pretty hard this year for Elk and only had one shot at a legal Bull and he was a guppy ( a basic 5x5 with on little point making a 6x5). I think that the 6 point only season needs to be changed to a 5 point or better to take the preassure off of the 6 points. When you see 5 points that would score over 300" those are mature bulls and they are never going to be 6 points. They almost changed the season here to 3 and better this year but some fish and game clubs rally hard against it. I think a 5 point season would accomplish the desired goal of increased harvest and at the same time take the pressure of of the mature 6 point bulls allowing better genetic bulls a chance to breed. What do you guys think?

[brotherjack]

I'd vote for it!

[Crazy.kayaker]

sounds like a good idea to me too

[BlacktailStalker]

I saw 13 5x5s in 2 weeks of hunting this year.
Just one legal bull and he was 650 yards out.

[boxhitch]

They almost changed the season here to 3 and better this year but some fish and game clubs rally hard against it.



What do you guys think?
I think the locals had their chance to get things right, but were out-gunned by a vocal-minority.
Re-fight the same battle ?

[brotherjack]

Well, either we leave the situation stupid forever, or we fight till it gets made right.

Anyone got a better idea?

[Steeleco]

They have been talking this argument in the peace country for some time.
I think the old way of thinking needs to be looked at. A big 5 will/may never get that last point and will die old age after years of passing on 5pt genes.

MHO!!

[Buckmaster123]

If you change it to 5x5, it would end up a slaughter-fest and it would be years before there would be a substantial 6x6 population again, who wants a small 5 point on the wall anyways, its 6 or go home!!!!!

[Moosenose]

You are absolutely right about this. What we are doing by taking all the 6 pointers is changing the genetics of the herd. We are culling all bulls that develop the extra points, and rewarding the large 5 pointers to take over the cows and continue breeding speading their genetics for continued large 5 pointers. I saw 2 @ 5 point bulls this year that could easily have been 7 pointers or better. They were very large bodied bulls with heavy beams in their prime. I'm sure the ungulate biologists are aware of this, and know something has to be done. Pressure from Fish and Wildlife groups is a good idea. I don't have the answer on what would be the best solution, but something should be done very soon as we are messing with nature here. When the 6 point season first came out it did a lot of good for the elk herds, but it has been too long, we need a change for the good of the elk.
Here are a few of ideas
-open for 5 point only
-open for 3 point or better (like it was)
-maybe an open season on all bulls

[Ddog]

hmmmm...wht to do,,,
i dont know whats wrong with the 6 point or better season, this year i saw a couple of legal bulls, and thats not bad considering once the gun season opened i only went about 5x.
i did see lots of 5 point bulls that were little raghorns that will be bigger bulls in the future.
and as others have said i seen lots of huge 5 point herd bulls that wont grow another point.
so in my opinion, there should be a least a one week 5 point season, but it is really hard to justify this.
out of everybody i know and have talked to they have always seen at least a half dozen 5 point bulls during the 6 point season.
so this is also something to take into consideration.
if everybody harvests a 5 point bull, how many 6 point bulls will never be?

[budismyhorse]

To answer the question in your thread title specifically......

larger bulls do NOT hang out with the herds after the rut is completely over. they are back together resting and putting on weight before the winter attempts to kill them.

a friend of mine ran into a "herd" of bulls in the end of october that was 11 strong with 6 legal bulls in it......

hunting mule deer a few days ago I glassed a huge band of ewes and lambs with a few small rams mixed in. No legal rams........maybe we should go back to the 70's and have it 3/4 curl or better....:roll:

[rocksteady]

Riflebuilder...Doing an inventory after the season is not representative of the population and its # of 6 point bulls.....I saw a tonne of 6 points PRIOR to the season.....

Yes, there are a lot of 5's out there being herd bulls, but how many moved in just because the 6's were harvested by hunters.....

Not saying we should not have a short 5 point season, just saying what you saw the other day may not be a good sample to base game managememnt on....And as Bud says, I do know a lot of the BIG bulls go back to bachelor groups after the rut..

[boxhitch]

who wants a small 5 point on the wall anyways, its 6 or go home!!!!!

if
everybody harvests a 5 point bull, how many 6 point bulls will never be?
I don't give a rats houey about 6 point elk, I want a 5'er to go in the freezer

[6616]

We may be harvesting out the best genetics with the 6 pt season, but a lot of the 6 pts that get shot are rag horns too.

Jeff and Mike make valid points, 700 to 900 6 pt bulls have recently been removed from the population so I'd guess that's why they are scarce right now, definitely not representative and not a reasonable time to take inventory.

If a 5 pt season is introduced I'd support it for a week or ten days to begin with,,,, start conservatively and closely monitor the results, didn't we hash this one over sufficiently last spring...???

[Moosenose]

Boxhitch
They almost changed the season here to 3 and better this year but some fish and game clubs rally hard against it.

If ungulate biologists recommended going to 3 or better, then it is the Fish and Game Club members that need to be educated.
I am not talking about what is better for someones freezer, or what is better for some individuals trophy room, I am talking about what is best for the entire elk population.
If Charles Darwin knew what we were doing with the genetics by culling the 6 or better, he would roll over in his grave.
It needs to be changed, the sooner the better.

[rocksteady]

It needs to be changed, the sooner the better.


IF it needs to be changed......

[brotherjack]

if
I don't give a rats houey about 6 point elk, I want a 5'er to go in the freezer

Preach it! You and me and (if surveys are to be believed), pushing 90% of the guys who hunt.

[CoqTrophys]

From what i saw this year i can say that the elk population is huge and so is the number of 6 pt bulls. Our group of 3 ended up harvesting 2 bulls this year in the E/K. We saw around 10 legal bulls but most were in spots that they can bloody well stay in. I'm not saying that nothing needs to be done because i'm not a biologist but what I am saying is that we had no problems finding 6 pt bulls this year. On that same note, this is only my third year hunting elk and we havent been as lucky in previous years.

[drakfero]

In Europe they do a selection.. they shoot any bulls except those ones which have a crown at the end of the antlers. those ones are for breeding but I do not know how it could be done over here.. in my opinion it is definitely best to leave the biggest ones for breeding

[kootenayelkslayer]

In Europe they do a selection.. they shoot any bulls except those ones which have a crown at the end of the antlers. those ones are for breeding but I do not know how it could be done over here.. in my opinion it is definitely best to leave the biggest ones for breeding

Here we have to cater to both a trophy hunting and meat hunting. There is no point in saving the trophy animals to breed when populations are so good, and we can't deny hunters the opportunity to shoot big mature bulls.
My opinion is that we should stick to the 6pt rule for now. Six point bulls are pretty plentiful, I've seen more 6 points this year than 5 points, or even cows for that matter. Like 6616 says, there are alot of young raghorn 6 points kicking around too. Implementing a 5 point regulation to me is almost making elk hunting a sure thing, which it shouldn't be. How many elk hunters would have tagged out this year if you could shoot 5pts? 75%? Whatever the statistic would've been, it would likely be an extremely high success rate, probably way to many bulls being shot.
Why is it that when we finally get a solid population we want to screw it up so badly?
The majority of 5 pts will be 6 pts the next year, so I say we just be happy with what we've got, and if you spend the time out there you'll be rewarded with a nice 6 point.

[Everett]

My Freezer doesn't have an Elk in it even though I saw over 30 bulls this year. Every herd bull I saw was a 5 except one crazy looking 4x4 who was huge. I should have shot that bugger on principle alone. I can imagine the genetics he was passing on.
Personally, I am ready to hang a trophy hunter over my fireplace I am so sick of horn hunters. The elk herd in the EK is over carrying capacity so when we have a huge winter this year or next they will starve again.
As a career ski bum I love a big winter, but as a hunter, I'm not so happy when the Elk starve. In the late 90's, the skiing was sick as the Elk died and there was less Elk on more winter range than we presently have.

So the answer is an open season on trophy hunters, or maybe even a bounty of 50 dollars a head sounds about right. That's what I used to get for coyotes in Nova Scotia.

[Ddog]

So the answer is an open season on trophy hunters, or maybe even a bounty of 50 dollars a head sounds about right. That's what I used to get for coyotes in Nova Scotia.

you make no sense what so ever. you sound like a little kid that didnt get his lolipop.
if there were more trophy hunters out there, perhaps you would have a better chance on getting a little six point. geeee ya think?

there is plenty of 6 point elk in the kootenays, and just as kootenayelkslayer was saying, the majority of the 5 points will be 6 points next season. and like i said previously, there are lots of 5 points to be seen, i can basically go out any day of the year and see a 5 point, so if there was an open season on them also like was said before how many elk hunters would tag one? i think its wayyyyyyyy more than 75% i think it would probably be in the mid to high nineties.
i would support a one week or less 5 point season. but any longer than that would be ridiculous. that would almost be a guarantee hunt

[Everett]

So whats wrong with a garuntee hunt I hunt for food first sport second and definetly not antlers.

[mwj]

i say keep the 6-point season. if you'd hunted the ek in the 70's you would know why. i think it's impossible to "shoot out" the 6-point gene.

[Everett]

Afraid I am not old enough to have hunted in the 70's but I honestly don't care about the 6 point gene. I care about a full freezer and right now there is more Elk than the winter habitat can handle in a hard winter so lets eat them instead of waiting for a bad winter and they all starve.

[Fisher-Dude]

Here we have to cater to both a trophy hunting and meat hunting. There is no point in saving the trophy animals to breed when populations are so good, and we can't deny hunters the opportunity to shoot big mature bulls.
My opinion is that we should stick to the 6pt rule for now. Six point bulls are pretty plentiful, I've seen more 6 points this year than 5 points, or even cows for that matter. Like 6616 says, there are alot of young raghorn 6 points kicking around too. Implementing a 5 point regulation to me is almost making elk hunting a sure thing, which it shouldn't be. How many elk hunters would have tagged out this year if you could shoot 5pts? 75%? Whatever the statistic would've been, it would likely be an extremely high success rate, probably way to many bulls being shot.
Why is it that when we finally get a solid population we want to screw it up so badly?
The majority of 5 pts will be 6 pts the next year, so I say we just be happy with what we've got, and if you spend the time out there you'll be rewarded with a nice 6 point.

Why did the elk population flourish with decades of 3 point or better and double the number of hunters then? Slaughter my arse.

Genetics - schemetics. All that is needed for a good population is a sperm supply, and 6 points does NOT indicate good genetics.

[Fisher-Dude]

i say keep the 6-point season. if you'd hunted the ek in the 70's you would know why. i think it's impossible to "shoot out" the 6-point gene.

I hunted the EK in the 70s and it was awesome.

[budismyhorse]

Did I mention :

"Here we go again!"

or as Micheal Buffer would put it: "LLLLLLLLLLts get ready to rumbllllllllle!"

This debate seems more like a winter event....can we hang on till after the season before we get a 30+ page thread going? :lol:

[winbuckhunter]

or at the very least.. make more LEH tags available..

[boxhitch]

bud, its a contentious issue that deserves to stay alive.
tune in or tune out, but maybe something good will come of it.

[6616]

The elk herd in the EK is over carrying capacity so when we have a huge winter this year or next they will starve again.
As a career ski bum I love a big winter, but as a hunter, I'm not so happy when the Elk starve. In the late 90's, the skiing was sick as the Elk died and there was less Elk on more winter range than we presently have.

I suspect the elk herd is over carrying capacity as well and Everett is correct, that's just asking for a major die-off. I believe there are more elk now then there was in 1996 just prior to the big winter kill, and I'm sure there is also less habitat. Everett, is correct, we're toying with a potentially dangrously situation, especially when one considers the competition for forage with deer population so high and cattle out there all summer..

That being said, if it's population control we need, and that seems to be the case, that objective cannot be reached by shooting bulls, it doesn't matter what kind of antler regulation we have. We need to shoot cows and calves. And we are shooting cows and calves right..the bio's seem to know what they are doing,,, between the youth/senior season, the LEH and bow seasons I'm sure quite a few cows bit the dust this fall.

[6616]

I hunted the EK in the 70s and it was awesome.

Me too, and elk hunting wasn't bad.. It was better in the 80's but it was still pretty good in the 70's, especially if you were a meat hunter. The trophy hunters wouldn't have liked it much.

In the 60's there wasn't as many elk, seemed to be more moose then elk around then, and mule deer by the thousands, but very few white tails..

Times have definitely changed, habitat conditions seem to favor different species today.

[6616]

and as others have said i seen lots of huge 5 point herd bulls that wont grow another point.

How do we know they won't grow another point, are we sure about that, or is this just speculation on our part...????

[Fisher-Dude]

I suspect the elk herd is over carrying capacity as well and Everett is correct, that's just asking for a major die-off. I believe there are more elk now then there was in 1996 just prior to the big winter kill, and I'm sure there is also less habitat. Everett, is correct, we're toying with a potentially dangrously situation, especially when one considers the competition for forage with deer population so high and cattle out there all summer..

That being said, if it's population control we need, and that seems to be the case, that objective cannot be reached by shooting bulls, it doesn't matter what kind of antler regulation we have. We need to shoot cows and calves. And we are shooting cows and calves right..the bio's seem to know what they are doing,,, between the youth/senior season, the LEH and bow seasons I'm sure quite a few cows bit the dust this fall.

We should have a "crossbow only" season on cows/calves! Wonder if any "bow" organizations would support it? :razz:

[brotherjack]

At the risk of telling you all how I really feel about it....

Well, here's the deal, from a meat-hunters point of view. "Success" to me, is meat in the freezer. Big ones are better than little ones, but at the beginning and the end of the day, I hunt, because it doesn't really matter if I blow $1,000 or so a year on hunting as a local, so long as I'm not paying big money for steaks from Safeway 3 or 4 nights a week on the home front. When "success" by my definition is out of reach, then I run the very real risk of spending my $1,000 or so on hunting season, every minute of my free time, and then still at the end of it paying $12 a steak at Safeway. Umm... let's just say, that's not an attractive plan, to me.

I am happy for all you guys who know how and where to find 6 point elk, and come home with stories about half a dozen legal bulls you never got a shot at, and how happy you were just to "be out there", and how it's no big deal if you hunt for 6 years in between successful (by my definition) elk hunts. Good for you - honestly.

As for me, I have logged 200+ days in the bush in the last 6 years, and I've only ever seen TWO legal bulls during hunting season. In hindsight, that's a total waste of my time and my money, and I have no intention whatsoever of continuing that waste (I was "this close" to not even buying an elk tag this year - in hindsight, I wish I hadn't). This kind of "success" is how you get guys like me to go buy a buffalo for $400 and give up hunting entirely. Furthermore, this is a big part of how you got from approximately 180,000 hunters to 80,000 hunters in an alarmingly short period of time. By the time you get to 40,000 hunters (less than 20 years at the current rate), whatever tree-hugging government the LML elects by then, is going to realize that there are hundreds of thousands of tree-huggers in BC who are anti-hunting, and a measley 40,000 hunters that only contribute a few million a year to a budget that's so big that a few million looks like peanuts, and they are going to outlaw hunting altogether -- and when that battle comes, defending hunting as a "trophy sport" (as opposed to a legitimate means of feeding a family) is not really a happening plan.

Anyway, I think I got a at least a a good bit carried away with my language here - but exaggeration isn't always a bad thing -- hopefully you can see my point in the midst of the drama.

And that, ya'll - is pretty much all I've got to say on the subject.

[Fisher-Dude]

Me too, and elk hunting wasn't bad.. It was better in the 80's but it was still pretty good in the 70's, especially if you were a meat hunter. The trophy hunters wouldn't have liked it much.


That 3% of the BC hunting population shouldn't be calling the shots on what seasons we all have to live by. :shock:

[6616]

We should have a "crossbow only" season on cows/calves! Wonder if any "bow" organizations would support it? :razz:

I'll not bite on that one Pat.....

[6616]

At the risk of telling you all how I really feel about it....

Well, here's the deal, from a meat-hunters point of view. "Success" to me, is meat in the freezer. Big ones are better than little ones, but at the beginning and the end of the day, I hunt, because it doesn't really matter if I blow $1,000 or so a year on hunting as a local, so long as I'm not paying big money for steaks from Safeway 3 or 4 nights a week on the home front. When "success" by my definition is out of reach, then I run the very real risk of spending my $1,000 or so on hunting season, every minute of my free time, and then still at the end of it paying $12 a steak at Safeway. Umm... let's just say, that's not an attractive plan, to me.

I am happy for all you guys who know how and where to find 6 point elk, and come home with stories about half a dozen legal bulls you never got a shot at, and how happy you were just to "be out there", and how it's no big deal if you hunt for 6 years in between successful (by my definition) elk hunts. Good for you - honestly.

As for me, I have logged 200+ days in the bush in the last 6 years, and I've only ever seen TWO legal bulls during hunting season. In hindsight, that's a total waste of my time and my money, and I have no intention whatsoever of continuing that waste (I was "this close" to not even buying an elk tag this year - in hindsight, I wish I hadn't). This kind of "success" is how you get guys like me to go buy a buffalo for $400 and give up hunting entirely. Furthermore, this is a big part of how you got from approximately 180,000 hunters to 80,000 hunters in an alarmingly short period of time. By the time you get to 40,000 hunters (less than 20 years at the current rate), whatever tree-hugging government the LML elects by then, is going to realize that there are hundreds of thousands of tree-huggers in BC who are anti-hunting, and a measley 40,000 hunters that only contribute a few million a year to a budget that's so big that a few million looks like peanuts, and they are going to outlaw hunting altogether -- and when that battle comes, defending hunting as a "trophy sport" (as opposed to a legitimate means of feeding a family) is not really a happening plan.

Anyway, I think I got a at least a a good bit carried away with my language here - but exaggeration isn't always a bad thing -- hopefully you can ignore the drama and see my point.

And that, ya'll - is pretty much all I've got to say on the subject.

Well I think you've said a lot BJ and you've brought up a very critical point indeed, and one that the BCWF is very concerned about..
90% of hunters are meat hunters. Possibly we've been catering too much to the remaining 10% for too long now! That's a social issue.

On a bilogical front, and considering the Region 7a moose regulation discussion, maybe it's better to harvest a cross section of the population each year instead of just 6 pts, or even 5 and 6 pointers. Maybe we need to throw it wide open to any bull for a week and harvest a number of spikes and 3 pointers as well and thus harvest broader a cross section of age classes and thus improve the social structure of the elk population.

[Moosenose]

I like what you said there 6616; open it up for a week for all bulls. This would take pressure off the 6 point or better bulls, and give meat hunters an better chance for success.
We need to change the 6 point season.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3809146

Here is an exerpt:
If the number of points on the antlers is genetically determined in elk as it is in white-tailed deer, these plans may be selectively eliminating genetically superior bulls and retaining inferior bulls. Continued use could cause a progressive decrease in frequency of genes favorable to development of large well branched antlers, and consequently could cause a progressive loss of trophy class animals.

Once again I suggest:
We need to change the 6 point season.

If both trophy hunters and meat hunters will benifit then:
We need to change the 6 point season.

I am mainly concerned with the elk population as a whole, not necesarily in numbers (that will be looked after by harvest and winter), but what continued culling of genetically superior bulls will do.
Whatever we do we need to change the 6 point season.

[riflebuilder]

I know that big bulls leave the herds after the rut, but even during the season I only saw 2 legal bulls. One in the Park and the one I killed. Now I love to shoot big horned animals don't get me wrong who does'nt. But it is pretty depressing for a 14 yr old boy to see 35 bulls and never be able to shoot one. My kid was exstatic over his 2 point whitetail. It tasted just as good as my 4 point. Maybe what they should do is have a GOS on any bulls after the rut and a LEH for trophy bulls. But if you hold a LEH tag you can not hunt the late any bull season.

[tmarschall]

Maybe what they should do is have a GOS on any bulls after the rut

After reading 4 pages, this is the best line I have read. The idea has done wonders for many years if you look around!

[6616]

I know that big bulls leave the herds after the rut, but even during the season I only saw 2 legal bulls. One in the Park and the one I killed. Now I love to shoot big horned animals don't get me wrong who does'nt. But it is pretty depressing for a 14 yr old boy to see 35 bulls and never be able to shoot one. My kid was exstatic over his 2 point whitetail. It tasted just as good as my 4 point. Maybe what they should do is have a GOS on any bulls after the rut and a LEH for trophy bulls. But if you hold a LEH tag you can not hunt the late any bull season.

I don't think we need LEH of any kind for bull elk. If we had a week of any bull GOS we should consider what the objective would be. If the objective is to reduce the kill of 6 pointers and replace that harvest with bulls from younger age classes, perhaps it would be better to have it during the rut, if 500 hunters tagged out on younger bulls, that probably equates to approximately 500 fewer 6 pointers shot each year..

The Thelen abstract that was posted poses some interesting questions. It maintains the trophy quality of elk will eventually decrease if we maintain the 6 point GOS season. It also poses a social question regarding elk management, that is do we manage for a high yield, or a high trophy potential. I think since over 90% of hunters are meat hunters the answer to that is obvious.

To maintain a good age class structure in the elk population we might be better off harvesting some cows and calves (LEH), plus a mixture of young and old bulls (a cross section of the population). Harvesting from a single age class like we do now skews the age classes of the population and probably effects overall behaviour. What is causing the current behaviour pattern that results in so many elk being non-migratory....???? This is another issue of significant concern.

[Fisher-Dude]

I know that big bulls leave the herds after the rut, but even during the season I only saw 2 legal bulls. One in the Park and the one I killed. Now I love to shoot big horned animals don't get me wrong who does'nt. But it is pretty depressing for a 14 yr old boy to see 35 bulls and never be able to shoot one. My kid was exstatic over his 2 point whitetail. It tasted just as good as my 4 point. Maybe what they should do is have a GOS on any bulls after the rut and a LEH for trophy bulls. But if you hold a LEH tag you can not hunt the late any bull season.

I agree with most of what you say, BUT we do not need any more LEH. LEH kills hunting and breaks up hunting parties, and causes further detrioriation of hunter numbers. There is no conservation concern if we were to open up a 5 or 3 point season, that is fact from our biologists.

Why we keep a trophy season that is, as Moosenose has so rightly pointed out, doing long term harm to our elk herd, just to please the yapping minority at the FHAC table, baffles me.

[6616]

I agree with most of what you say, BUT we do not need any more LEH. LEH kills hunting and breaks up hunting parties, and causes further detrioriation of hunter numbers. There is no conservation concern if we were to open up a 5 or 3 point season, that is fact from our biologists.

Why we keep a trophy season that is, as Moosenose has so rightly pointed out, doing long term harm to our elk herd, just to please the yapping minority at the FHAC table, baffles me.

Hey Pat, it wasn't so much the advisory committee. While it is true many of the BCWF clubs and the guides opposed the idea, the bowhunters supported it and the committee's position was pretty close to a 50/50 split in the end. The decisive factor was that out of some 90 responses from the general public on the web site, nearly 80% opposed the proposed 1 week 3 pt season (last year).

I think a couple of things need to happen:
- The hunting public needs to educate themselves better, good for Moosenose for posting the Thelen Abstract.
- The hunting public needs to get more concerned about recruitment/retention and listen to the wise words from Brotherjack. We should be managing for a higher yield and a lesser trophy component.
- The general hunting public has to become less conservative in their approach to wildlife management, we are no longer in the recovery mode, with elk and white tailed deer we are probably over carrying capacity and asking for a significant winter mortality event. Seems we are deathly afraid these days to try something new for fear of a slight over-harvest without consideration of the resiliancy of these populations to bounce back should such an event occur. Just five short years ago we were managing elk by a management strategy that was designed to recover the population from the lows of the late 90's, we no longer need to manage so conservatively.

[6616]

Considering the current elk and white tailked deer populatioins, and the overgrazed condition of the Trench winter ranges, all we need is one bad winter like 96/97 again and we'll be right back where we were in 1998 and the entire discussion above will be redundant because we'll be in the recovery mode again.

It would be very advantageous to avoid that scenario by getting elk and white tailed deer within the population parameters that the current winter range conditions would support in a bad winter.

[J_T]

Let's keep in mind that we "are" making change to the elk hunt in the EK now. Small steps manage the risks that some are concerned about.

Not that long ago, the bowseason was a 6 pt only. We worked it down to 3 point and now it's any bull in the back country, and any elk in the agricultural front country.

We've introduced a Jr/Sr 10 day antlerless season for the agricultural lands.

I support a 3 pt or less GOS hunt. What would be up for discussion is when? And how long?

I support the continued any elk for archers in the front country, during the Jr/Sr season.

I do have concerns about hunting our mature bulls. Whether they are 6's or 5's. If we have a 3 pt or better, or a 5 pt or better, I would be concerned about harvesting some of our breeding stock.

[boxhitch]

One of the main concerns brought up at the meetings, was the large stampede of hunters to the small window of opportunity.
The habitat has changed, the access has changed, development is unbridled.
How is this to be addressed, if it is an issue?
If the option is a LEH moose in 7 or a GOS elk in 4, lots of traffic will head east instead of north. I think the big picture has to be worked out instead of the current micro management.

[ELKOHOLICBC]

This topic comes up every year. To me it's all the hunter that didn't get thier elk that are complaining. I've hunted the EK for elk now for ten years, also with a group of guys that have been going back there to the same spot for 22 years now. Elk hutning isn't made to be an easy sure thing. Put your time in get out of your truck and hike the high country, you'll be rewarded. I saw 43 elk this past season in ten days of hunting. 21 different bulls, 6 6pts others 5s, 4s and some spikes. I didn't connect this year but I don't care. Why change something thats is working. In our camp alone there were 6 large 6pts hanging in ten days of hunting between 10 hunters. I think that's not bad odds.Every year i've gone back there I have always had chances at nice quality 6pts. All these guys I hunt with say that it was a gong show back when its was 3 pt or better. You never saw any 6pts because they never had a chance to get mature. One of the guys that is in this group, probally one of the best elk hunters I know(even the guides hate when he's there) showed me the picture of his elk racks from the EK, there were seven 6s well over 300. All shot since they changed it to 6 pt or better, explain that. BC isn't known for your trophy elk so the GUYS saying im sick of trophy hunters think about it. It's guys that want to shoot a decent bull. You guys hate trophy hunters just like I hate guys that shoot spikes. Everyone hunts for different reasons and has diffferent opioins on these topics. My opioin is leave it the way it is, it's working, nobody said you have to go elk hunting thats your choice if you don't get your animal thats why they call it hunting not killing. Also if you don't like the rules try something or somewhere else( maybe it's not the rules its the way you hunt).

[Buckman]

I agree on the 5 pt or better!

[budismyhorse]

.......I think the big picture has to be worked out instead of the current micro management.

Very good point Boxhitch, I'm not sure front-loading the season will be the answer for this problem. Given hot weather and a tonne more pressure, I don't think all that many more hunters will be successfull....some...but not enough to obtain the desired result...which is meat in the freezer for every hunter who is currently demanding it. I like the "big-picture" approach.

However, what do you envision as the change that is required?

[mark4]

I live here in the East Kootenay's- Fernie to be exact. I understand the frustration of seeing dozens of huge five pointers every year with only a handful of six pointers. For all you guys that don't like the present situation- and want meat for the freezer, why not get a compound or crossbow and take any bull during the 10 day bow season ??? You could get yourself a bull of any antler size every year this way. Most of the five pointers turn into six spikes the following year but not all. I find it encouraging to see lots of five pointers- and don't beleive for a minute that there are no sixers out there anymore lol. Every year there would have to be hundreds of new six pointers- as the fives grow an extra point or two. You want to shoot a five point ?? right on man -Get a bow and get busy !!! You're already allowed to do that !! The only thing now is that there are no more excuses lol. If you see one of these big fives that are fully mature and won't ever get another point- set up on him the very next bow season and take him down. Just a suggestion you might want to consider.

[aletheuo]

Regarding the many comments about the suggested one-week open season for 5 point elk. I like the idea but I am concerned more about how many non-resident hunters we are getting here in the EK and that open week would be insane in the bush. Too many people. If it were only open to residents then that would be fine.

I can't believe the number of people I run into that comment on how quiet the bush gets after elk season is over. Was talking to a forester the other day and he says he always notices that after Oct 15th there is way less traffic around here.

[mark4]

I can't help you with that one yet Ken lol - but my crossbow is accurate out to 50 yards. Set up a treestand on a well used wallow and that is close enough i'm thinking- ofcourse it's easier said than done- no doubt about it. I always tell non-residents to be sure to bring their quads- because quads really work good for getting an elk lol- Drive around on that thing all day and success will come !!!The elk definitely don't HEAR them- and definitely DON'T KNOW WHERE TO EXPECT THEM lmao. Hey we all play games like this to some degree. It's like telling some other hunter you haven't seen a thing when really you did. What a jerk I am !!!

[guest]

Why fix something that is not broken.
The MOE plan is producing some great bulls, just work harder, longer and smarter. A good 6 pt. bull from the Kootenay usually do not come easy.

I would rather see leh's though for the youth and senior season, the present early season has some what created a gong show out there and at times is out and out dangerous. Too many guys in the bush at once.

C/T

[brotherjack]

4 years ago, I got into bow hunting for just that reason - thought it would be easier to get an elk. 4 years later, no elk to show for it. (I did, however, discover that I really enjoy bow hunting whitetails, so it wasn't a total wash).

[mark4]

hmmm - I wonder if making the bow season a little longer might help folks connect on any bull- instead of ten days make it twenty. That might be alright because then Joe Blow can't just jump out of his pickup and smash a five with his 300 win mag. The bowhunters that are actually out there working for it will win instead of the road hunters who refuse to hike around. I don't feel sorry for the road hunters that get skunked.

[6616]

It's interesting that the people opposing this idea are opposing it based on bull elk quality (trophy potential) and even suggesting LEH for meat hunters (youth/seniors) but not for themselves. As some one suggested earlier, maybe it's the mature bulls that should be on LEH? Not that it's currently necessary, but if we really had to restrict opportunties maybe it should be for the minority group. The minority group should not be dictating regulations nor should they expect other hunters to adapt to their personal hunting values and philosophies by saying "hunt harder - hunt smarter - you'll get you six point if you hunt hard and smart enough". That smacks of a minority group of trophy hunters trying to protect the trophy hunt at the expense of the multitude of ordinary meat hunters.

If the youth/senior hunt was not sustainable as far as numbers harvested that would be one thing, but just to improve the quality of the hunt (reduce crowding) for the trophy bull hunters who are in the minority doesn't seem really fair.

Again we have to remember that 95% of elk hunters are meat hunters not trophy hunters. Hunter numbers are declining, trophy management regimes will hurt hunting over the long term.

The theory that if it's not busted don't try to fix it does not hold water either guys. The habitat is dying, one bad winter could end elk hunting as we know it today. The management regime is currently changing, it has to guys, the harvests will be directed to cows and calves more and more until the population is under control and the habitat can then have a chance to recover.

[mark4]

With all due respect- and also understanding your take on it and admitting it holds some merit- Do you not think that a rifle season for five pointers would be an absolute slaughter ?? I think promoting LEH is a dangerous game - because I never get drawn- yet the government still gets their money out of it. It's like thanks for your money and sorry !! I personally don't think that hunter numbers are declining because I see more and more hunters every year personally and not a few more- way more. I really want to know who is saying that the hunter numbers are way down. In the states they have way way more elk per kilometer than we do - in states like colorado, montana ,idaho. Look up the elk populations in those states to see for yourself. Then compare the size of those states compared to bc. I don't know if we truly are on the brink of disaster with our habitat and what it can support. I honestly see a whole lot of disgruntled road hunters lol. I am not a trophy hunter- any legal bull is good enough for me. When we try to accomodate road hunters that want easy meat- we are losing touch with what hunting is all about. Sometimes we elk hunters get skunked - it's part of the game- changing all the rules to make it easier for us and our high power weapons is a mistake in my book-I say keep everything the same but double the length of the bow season to find a happy medium-this should result in approximately twice as many bulls harvested during bow season - but you know what they say about opinions..............

[Fisher-Dude]

Regarding the many comments about the suggested one-week open season for 5 point elk. I like the idea but I am concerned more about how many non-resident hunters we are getting here in the EK and that open week would be insane in the bush. Too many people. If it were only open to residents then that would be fine.

I can't believe the number of people I run into that comment on how quiet the bush gets after elk season is over. Was talking to a forester the other day and he says he always notices that after Oct 15th there is way less traffic around here.

Pardon me? You define "non-resident hunter" as a BC resident who doesn't live in your neck of the woods? Get over yourself already, these elk belong to ALL the residents of BC, regardless of where they live!

You've really opened your mouth and proven exactly what I was kicked in the balls for suggesting the last time this debate was on - that EK residents want "their" elk all to themselves, and to hell with those of us who can only get a week or two to hunt them (when we're lucky).

[6616]

With all due respect- and also understanding your take on it and admitting it holds some merit- Do you not think that a rifle season for five pointers would be an absolute slaughter ?? I think promoting LEH is a dangerous game - because I never get drawn- yet the government still gets their money out of it. It's like thanks for your money and sorry !! I personally don't think that hunter numbers are declining because I see more and more hunters every year personally and not a few more- way more. I really want to know who is saying that the hunter numbers are way down. In the states they have way way more elk per kilometer than we do - in states like colorado, montana ,idaho. Look up the elk populations in those states to see for yourself. Then compare the size of those states compared to bc. I don't know if we truly are on the brink of disaster with our habitat and what it can support. I honestly see a whole lot of disgruntled road hunters lol. I am not a trophy hunter- any legal bull is good enough for me. When we try to accomodate road hunters that want easy meat- we are losing touch with what hunting is all about. Sometimes we elk hunters get skunked - it's part of the game- changing all the rules to make it easier for us and our high power weapons is a mistake in my book-I say keep everything the same but double the length of the bow season to find a happy medium-this should result in approximately twice as many bulls harvested during bow season - but you know what they say about opinions..............

First of all Mark4, I'm not singling you out or anyone else in particular, I just am recalling the many pages of comments made last time we hashed this over on this site, and to be sure, your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses.

Also I'm not promoting LEH, I hate it as much as you, I was only using it as an example.

No, I don't think a 5pt, 3pt, or any bull GOS would be a slaughter, it just needs to be short enough to prevent that.

I'm also not catering to road hunters, I'm trying to cater to the ordinary every day average hunter (95% of hunters) who is much more meat oriented then antler oriented. Bowhunters are normally advanced hunters with a great deal of hunting know-how and experience. The ordinary Joe may not have a bow or crossbow, they may not be interested in buying one, they may or may not have the know-how to harvest an elk with a bow, but regardless we still need to keep them on board, we need a balanced set of opportunties so there's something for everybody (or as many people as possible) including bow hunters and the less then expert elk hunters. With lower numbers we are losing political clout.

There were 173,000 resident hunters in BC in 1978, that declined to 80,000 by 2003, and we have approximatelly 88,000 in 2008. These are the facts from government stats no matter what it appear like out there in the popular hunting areas.

[Fisher-Dude]

With all due respect- and also understanding your take on it and admitting it holds some merit- Do you not think that a rifle season for five pointers would be an absolute slaughter ??

No. Decades of 3 point season and twice the number of hunters gave us a flourishing elk population with no conservation concern. You have no comparative to suggest the opposite.

I think promoting LEH is a dangerous game - because I never get drawn- yet the government still gets their money out of it. It's like thanks for your money and sorry !! I personally don't think that hunter numbers are declining because I see more and more hunters every year personally and not a few more- way more.

Your little world gives you one opinion, but the true statistics point to the opposite. We had 176,000 hunters in the 80's, and we have 86,000 now. Those stats reflect what is really happening, not your perception that the 5 hectares you hunt had a truck or two parked there this year.

I really want to know who is saying that the hunter numbers are way down. In the states they have way way more elk per kilometer than we do - in states like colorado, montana ,idaho. Look up the elk populations in those states to see for yourself. Then compare the size of those states compared to bc. I don't know if we truly are on the brink of disaster with our habitat and what it can support. I honestly see a whole lot of disgruntled road hunters lol. I am not a trophy hunter- any legal bull is good enough for me. When we try to accomodate road hunters that want easy meat- we are losing touch with what hunting is all about. Sometimes we elk hunters get skunked - it's part of the game- changing all the rules to make it easier for us and our high power weapons is a mistake in my book-I say keep everything the same but double the length of the bow season to find a happy medium-this should result in approximately twice as many bulls harvested during bow season - but you know what they say about opinions..............

You would rather roll the dice and gamble with seeing the elk numbers wiped out again with a bad winter than allow hunters to have better success. That's obvious. Bow season harvest is so miniscule that doubling it will not make any difference to the fact that the herd is busting the seams of sustainability and teetering on the brink of another disaster. Do we point at you and the other naysayers in a year or two or three and say "I told you so" when the weather kills off all of our elk hunting opportunities, or do we manage the herd properly and utilize the game that's out there? This 6 point season is proven to harm the herd - why do you want it continued? Don't you care that it's harming the elk?



....................

[Islandeer]

Pardon me? You define "non-resident hunter" as a BC resident who doesn't live in your neck of the woods? Get over yourself already, these elk belong to ALL the residents of BC, regardless of where they live!

You've really opened your mouth and proven exactly what I was kicked in the balls for suggesting the last time this debate was on - that EK residents want "their" elk all to themselves, and to hell with those of us who can only get a week or two to hunt them (when we're lucky).

Uh OH!! Sounds like the NIMBI clash has sprung. For the sake of this squabble I propose that all EK fisherman be banned from fishing for Tyee size springs!! Let them catch the pinks.

I am hunting near Jaffray on Thursday and promise to only shoot one small runty whitey. :-P

Seriously, a LEH for 3 to 5 spikes might help a bit. Or maybe any bull. :shock:

[aletheuo]

For the record in my minds-eye what I was picturing was an amazing amount of guided hunts in a one-week 5-point season. Obviously my six posts to this forum declares my rookie nature. I enjoy the benefits of the BC coastal waters, too. Please, by all means, come to the EK for your elk hunt but please stop at the local stores while you are around.

[J_T]

Managing our elk and providing hunting opportunity for elk can involve all kinds of solutions. And can meet the needs/wants of most hunters. It doesn't have to be one versus another.

[tikka]

this year out me and some friend of mine seen around 10 legal 6 point bulls late in the season too. we we harvisted 2 of them but others were just too high to get at with the time we had. we have seen legal bulls every year. you have to be willing to do some work and good optics are varey important. i think staying with a six or better season is good, because it give younger bulls a chance to grow up. shure there are some that will never brake the 5 mark but what fune is it if you are going to get a bull every time you go out. it took me and my friends 3 years to get a bull and i am not complaining thats just the funn of it. i think if the season goes to 5 or evin 3 point bulls it will devistate the herds and then it will take years to get any good bulls back. and if you want a young bull you always have a chance in archery season. thats just my 2 cents.

[bosch]

To answer the question in your thread title specifically......

larger bulls do NOT hang out with the herds after the rut is completely over. they are back together resting and putting on weight before the winter attempts to kill them.

a friend of mine ran into a "herd" of bulls in the end of october that was 11 strong with 6 legal bulls in it......

hunting mule deer a few days ago I glassed a huge band of ewes and lambs with a few small rams mixed in. No legal rams........maybe we should go back to the 70's and have it 3/4 curl or better....:roll:Totally agree with this post, the season should allow 5 points and dis-allow anything over that except for some LEH's. This would keep the genenetics healthy for years to come and eliminate the raghorn population. Just an opinion of course!

[J_T]

I support a combination of continued Jr/Sr opportunities on antlerless, archery opportunities on any elk, continued GOS 6 pt (Sept 10 - Oct 20) and the introduction of a 3 pt or less GOS for a shorter duration.

[DWH]

Same crap over and over again.

There are a ton of 6 pts in the EK, (recovered nicely since DiMarchi). Enough for all who are willing to get off the roads and walk into some beautiful country. Spent 4 days hunting and left with two 6 pointers. If your talking about increase opportunities for new hunters - BS - the ones that stand to benefit the most will be the 'regulars' the ones that routinely frequent the area during the season. Besides, who wants a bunch of hunters that becomed conditioned to getting things handed to them on a silver platter. "Earn your keep - if you know what I mean".


'Nuff said.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Same crap over and over again.

There are a ton of 6 pts in the EK, (recovered nicely since DiMarchi). Enough for all who are willing to get off the roads and walk into some beautiful country. Spent 4 days hunting and left with two 6 pointers. If your talking about increase opportunities for new hunters - BS - the ones that stand to benefit the most will be the 'regulars' the ones that routinely frequent the area during the season. Besides, who wants a bunch of hunters that becomed conditioned to getting things handed to them on a silver platter. "Earn your keep - if you know what I mean".


'Nuff said.

Amen. I spent about 5 days in total hunting elk this year in the east and west kootenays. Shot the 6th six point that I saw during those 5 days.
There are lots of six points to go around.

[mark4]

Fisher-dude if you think I hunt in five hectares you definitely don't know me lol. I see the point though - mabye since all I see in the EK is thousands of hunters showing up instantly- is why I have the view that hunter numbers are anything but declining. Yes all bc residents have a right to hunt elk anywhere in bc- to me that makes sense. This thread is a good place to throw around ideas- nothing is written in stone and everyone has there good points to add to the discussion. Your view is just as important as my view. Mabye we need to stay calm when others disagree with us lol. I would appreciate seeing the proof you spoke of that a six point season is horrible for the elk population.

[BCrams]

Amen. I spent about 5 days in total hunting elk this year in the east and west kootenays. Shot the 6th six point that I saw during those 5 days.
There are lots of six points to go around.

Now that we have established there are indeed lots of 6 pt bulls to go around.

The elk herd must have recovered.....right???

What is your suggestion to deal with the elk population in the EK which is at and pushing the threshold of carrying capacity and consequent habitat damage?

Something needs to be done! Any ideas? Or do you just keep with the current 6 pt season which was designed "for recovery" of the EK elk population.

The "recovery" stage is over. Now a solution needs to be put in place to manage the high elk population. What do we do?

Keep in mind, the direction is also to recruit hunters and provide opportunity.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Now that we have established there are indeed lots of 6 pt bulls to go around.

The elk herd must have recovered.....right???

What is your suggestion to deal with the elk population in the EK which is at and pushing the threshold of carrying capacity and consequent habitat damage?

Something needs to be done! Any ideas? Or do you just keep with the current 6 pt season which was designed "for recovery" of the EK elk population.

The "recovery" stage is over. Now a solution needs to be put in place to manage the high elk population. What do we do?

Keep in mind, the direction is also to recruit hunters and provide opportunity.

Thats a good point, and your probably right. Something has to happen. I'd rather see them open up a November cow/spike season. That way everyone who bitches about only seeing 5 points during the rut can still have a good chance to put elk meat in the freezer later in the season. And everyone else who can find 6 point bulls will continue to have the opportunity to harvest mature animals.

[guest]

I second that late season, c/c spike. Thing, also that way the problem elk that are feasting on the ranches even though they are migrators get nailed.
The MOE has a good thing going to produce some great bulls again, lets not try to make something better then it is, just get off your lazy #@#@@SS and work for your ELK ! Sooner or later it will happen if your doing things right in the right place.
C/T

[kootenayelkslayer]

I second that late season, c/c spike. Thing, also that way the problem elk that are feasting on the ranches even though they are migrators get nailed.
The MOE has a good thing going to produce some great bulls again, lets not try to make something better then it is, just get off your lazy #@#@@SS and work for your ELK ! Sooner or later it will happen if your doing things right in the right place.
C/T

Exactly, we are starting to get good bulls again. And imagine how many potentially big bulls we would lose each year if we started whacking young 5 points.

[riflebuilder]

in some states that produce huge bulls the trophy class animals are on LEH. the GOS are on the young bulls, and you have the opertunity to hunt any Elk in archery season and some primitave weapon seasons(muzzeloaders). I like hunting Elk and love eating Elk meat. If we need more harvest have a limited late primitave weapons season. This could either be on LEH or GOS but the pupose would be to control the population and would end with when a set number of Elk both bulls and cows have been harvested. They use seasons like this in certian states to keep winting populations of Elk within the carring capacity of the winter range.

[boxhitch]

It's interesting that the people opposing this idea are opposing it based on bull elk quality (trophy potential) and even suggesting LEH for meat hunters (youth/seniors) but not for themselves. As some one suggested earlier, maybe it's the mature bulls that should be on LEH? Not that it's currently necessary, but if we really had to restrict opportunties maybe it should be for the minority group. The minority group should not be dictating regulations nor should they expect other hunters to adapt to their personal hunting values and philosophies by saying "hunt harder - hunt smarter - you'll get you six point if you hunt hard and smart enough". That smacks of a minority group of trophy hunters trying to protect the trophy hunt at the expense of the multitude of ordinary meat hunters.

If the youth/senior hunt was not sustainable as far as numbers harvested that would be one thing, but just to improve the quality of the hunt (reduce crowding) for the trophy bull hunters who are in the minority doesn't seem really fair.

Again we have to remember that 95% of elk hunters are meat hunters not trophy hunters. Hunter numbers are declining, trophy management regimes will hurt hunting over the long term.

The theory that if it's not busted don't try to fix it does not hold water either guys. The habitat is dying, one bad winter could end elk hunting as we know it today. The management regime is currently changing, it has to guys, the harvests will be directed to cows and calves more and more until the population is under control and the habitat can then have a chance to recover.Great post . This shows the whole picture. There is more to the picture than trophy quality, like some here are arguing. Sure, not everyone is successful, nor can everyone put in the effort required to be successful under the current Regs, But if opps can be opened up, without conservation concerns, how can anyone argue against it ?
But I do think the seasons would have to be liberalized in a broader time frams and geographic area or the Gong Show will/may/can happen.
That vast majority of yuck! non-resident spituey! hunters come from the LML, no brainer that is where the population center is. So give these guys a chance at options for a hunt IE - 8 hours north or 8 hours east, 10 day early season or ten day late season.
The way recruitment is going, the finite number of elk hunters won't double overnight, no mass hysteria.
The Big Picture I see is management of a provincial scale, not a NIMBY microcosm

[6616]

I second that late season, c/c spike. Thing, also that way the problem elk that are feasting on the ranches even though they are migrators get nailed.
The MOE has a good thing going to produce some great bulls again, lets not try to make something better then it is, just get off your lazy #@#@@SS and work for your ELK ! Sooner or later it will happen if your doing things right in the right place.
C/T

In November the migratory and non-migratory elk will be mixed together on the winter ranges and it will be impossible to target the non-migratory component.

[BCrams]

Exactly, we are starting to get good bulls again. And imagine how many potentially big bulls we would lose each year if we started whacking young 5 points.

Trophy hunting mentality and regulations which promote trophy animals have contributed in part to killing off hunter numbers.

I know you'd still find 6 pt bulls with relative ease if there was a 3 pt season. :wink:

[6616]

in some states that produce huge bulls the trophy class animals are on LEH. the GOS are on the young bulls, and you have the opertunity to hunt any Elk in archery season and some primitave weapon seasons(muzzeloaders). I like hunting Elk and love eating Elk meat. If we need more harvest have a limited late primitave weapons season. This could either be on LEH or GOS but the pupose would be to control the population and would end with when a set number of Elk both bulls and cows have been harvested. They use seasons like this in certian states to keep winting populations of Elk within the carring capacity of the winter range.

Any low elevation population control hunt should occur before Oct 15th in order to target the non-migratory component.

[6616]

Great post . This shows the whole picture. There is more to the picture than trophy quality, like some here are arguing. Sure, not everyone is successful, nor can everyone put in the effort required to be successful under the current Regs, But if opps can be opened up, without conservation concerns, how can anyone argue against it ?
But I do think the seasons would have to be liberalized in a broader time frams and geographic area or the Gong Show will/may/can happen.
That vast majority of yuck! non-resident spituey! hunters come from the LML, no brainer that is where the population center is. So give these guys a chance at options for a hunt IE - 8 hours north or 8 hours east, 10 day early season or ten day late season.
The way recruitment is going, the finite number of elk hunters won't double overnight, no mass hysteria.
The Big Picture I see is management of a provincial scale, not a NIMBY microcosm

I agree Bill we need a provincial elk management strategy.

[Jetboater]

I dont know where to weigh in on this but we hunt the EK each year... for the last 16 years I have watched the hunting get better and better... I think only once this year did I see a bull that I would consider as a genetic 5 Point. he was a 300+ inch bull that had grand whale tail points but that was the only one... there is a lot of small 5 points (raghorn bulls) that are exactly that 3-4 year old bulls that have not matured completely coming in easily to any bugle or hanging around a populated rd hoping a cow might not be chased by a big guy...
Just because you dont see em out of the truck window doesnt mean they are not there...

Leave it as a 6point or better and offer more draws and youth senior hunts in the trench... do it until the 25th of october...Killing all the five points is not the answer....

I love how people are mad at LML for hunting their Elk... Give me a break... I spend 3 weeks a year scouting the Kootenays so to try and limit hunter access because of where in the province we are located is BS.... thats like saying people from the kootenays should have to choose where to hunt shhep... region six or 7...

[kootenayelkslayer]

Trophy hunting mentality and regulations which promote trophy animals have contributed in part to killing off hunter numbers.

I know you'd still find 6 pt bulls with relative ease if there was a 3 pt season. :wink:

So do you agree that opening up a late cow/calf/spike season could be beneficial? That way us "trophy hunters" (which i don't think is a fair statement) can still get our 6 points every year, and the hunters that don't have any luck during the rut can still get an elk. This option would probably recruit hunters, promoting an easier elk hunt, all the while controlling the poplulation.
The problem with the six point rule is that it usually requires a difficult hunt in order to be successful, and this turns alot of people off and results in alot of unfilled tags. I'm not saying everyone that is complaining about the 6pt rule isn't hunting hard enough...but i think that might be part of the problem.
So why not promote a hunt that doesn't involve hiking into the back country and packing out 400 pounds of meat, because many people aren't up for that. And leave the mature animals for those that are willing to go the extra distance.

[BCrams]

[quote=kootenayelkslayer;357656]So do you agree that opening up a late cow/calf/spike season could be beneficial? That way us "trophy hunters" (which i don't think is a fair statement) can still get our 6 points every year, and the hunters that don't have any luck during the rut can still get an elk.

I don't live in the Koots but if anything 6616 says about the late season is correct - probably not beneficial.

This option would probably recruit hunters, promoting an easier elk hunt, all the while controlling the poplulation.

Might be able to work something similar but during earlier time frames?

The problem with the six point rule is that it usually requires a difficult hunt in order to be successful, and this turns alot of people off and results in alot of unfilled tags. I'm not saying everyone that is complaining about the 6pt rule isn't hunting hard enough...but i think that might be part of the problem.

BINGO!! The 6 pt regulation turns off a lot of people!!! Many just quit hunting!!

Why even have a 6 pt season anyways considering most hunters will not even get back to where these 6 pt bulls live right! You and other hunters in the Koots who will continue to hunt these places will always be successful on 6 pt bulls even if they liberalized the elk regulations.

So why not promote a hunt that doesn't involve hiking into the back country and packing out 400 pounds of meat, because many people aren't up for that. And leave the mature animals for those that are willing to go the extra distance.

Exactly! Hence, having a 1 week 3 pt season shouldn't hurt guys like you at all ... because there is no way in hell those guys you're talking about (the target of the said promoted hunt) will hike into the back country to whack a lil 3 or 4 pt bull to pack out .... it will be guys like you who want the 6 pt bulls.

Now ... aside from the big 6 pt bulls you still want to keep around for guys like you to hunt .....lets not forget we still need to manage the herds as a whole .... the continued 6 pt is counter productive to deal with the overall population.

[kootenayelkslayer]

Wow...talk about a conversation getting heated up in a hurry.
There are a couple guys on here that are telling others to get off their arse and work for their elk and To those guys that say this....I say get off your high horse and quit acting like your the best hunters to ever hunt elk!!
I don't own a quad and use my boots to look for elk. I don't road hunt but hell yes I would drop a 6 point bull in the middle of a switch back if I was given the chance.
Now I must say that I was opposed to any other season except 6 but I have changed my mind. There are tons of 3's, 4's and 5's out there and there are 5 points that are way too abnormally large for the area I hunt and I want one lol.
Everyones views on this subject are good views but I have to say shut the hell up when I am told to get off my arse and work for my elk.
Anyway for all those that think the 6 point season in region 4 should stay, your in for a bad year next year.
There will be a 3 point or bigger season for bull elk and ...Oh yea....there is gonna be a GOS for spike fork bull moose as well...isnt that cool

I'd shoot a six point on a road too, haha but it just doesn't happen to me. Like i said before, I'm not saying that if you don't shoot a 6 pt your not working hard enough. I just think that those who are fed up with not finding 6pts should look to other options that don't include shooting young bulls that are about as easy to kill as a moth.

[BCrams]

I just think that those who are fed up with not finding 6pts should look to other options that don't include shooting young bulls that are about as easy to kill as a moth.

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at the number of hunters out there who would give their left nut for a reasonable chance at a 3-5 pt bull thats as easy to kill as a moth!

You will retain / increase more hunters with increased opportunity while at the same time dealing with the high elk population.

There's a hint of preservationist there regarding the thought hunters should look at other options.

[6616]

[quote=kootenayelkslayer;357656]So do you agree that opening up a late cow/calf/spike season could be beneficial? That way us "trophy hunters" (which i don't think is a fair statement) can still get our 6 points every year, and the hunters that don't have any luck during the rut can still get an elk.

I don't live in the Koots but if anything 6616 says about the late season is correct - probably not beneficial.

This option would probably recruit hunters, promoting an easier elk hunt, all the while controlling the poplulation.

Might be able to work something similar but during earlier time frames?

The problem with the six point rule is that it usually requires a difficult hunt in order to be successful, and this turns alot of people off and results in alot of unfilled tags. I'm not saying everyone that is complaining about the 6pt rule isn't hunting hard enough...but i think that might be part of the problem.

BINGO!! The 6 pt regulation turns off a lot of people!!! Many just quit hunting!!

Why even have a 6 pt season anyways considering most hunters will not even get back to where these 6 pt bulls live right! You and other hunters in the Koots who will continue to hunt these places will always be successful on 6 pt bulls even if they liberalized the elk regulations.

So why not promote a hunt that doesn't involve hiking into the back country and packing out 400 pounds of meat, because many people aren't up for that. And leave the mature animals for those that are willing to go the extra distance.

Exactly! Hence, having a 1 week 3 pt season shouldn't hurt guys like you at all ... because there is no way in hell those guys you're talking about (the target of the said promoted hunt) will hike into the back country to whack a lil 3 or 4 pt bull to pack out .... it will be guys like you who want the 6 pt bulls.

Now ... aside from the big 6 pt bulls you still want to keep around for guys like you to hunt .....lets not forget we still need to manage the herds as a whole .... the continued 6 pt is counter productive to deal with the overall population.


The problem with the late season is that 30 to 50 % of the East Kootenay elk herd is non-migratory at this time. These elk are consuming forage off the winter ranges from May to October along side of 8000 head of cattle and they're leaving little forage for the migratory elk to eat when they come down from the high country in mid October. A non-migratory elk that feeds off the winter range for twelve months is using up enough forage to support two migratory elk that only use these ranges from mid-Oct to mid-May. The non-migratory elk are effectivelly and significantly reducing the overall number of elk we can support in the EK. They are reducing the carrying capacity.

Every range unit in the EK is showing some sign that it's being overgrazed, some more then others, some are in very bad shape. It will take some of these areas up to 20 years for native plant communities to recover. The main reason the East kootenay is elk country in the first place is because the native plant community has lots of Blue Bunch Wheatgrass, Rough Fescue and Idaho Fescue, plants that carry high nutrient levels into the winter dormancy period, without these plant species the carrying capacity for elk will decline significantly. These plant species are vulnerable to and are being threatened by overgrazing.

Considering the above the wintering elk population is probably over carrying capacity and a winter die-off (starvation) situation is seriously possible. Last February when the bio's did the elk survey they said they'd never seen such large numbers of elk in such poor condition before. That's pretty darn scary, last winter was borderline, anything more severe then last winter could easily trigger a major die-off event like the winter of 96/97.

So, the elk herd needs some level of population control, but considering the large non-migratory component and the overall damage they are doing, it seems logical that is the component we should be targeting for reduction. If we wait until after the 15 to 20th of Oct the migratory and non-migratory elk will be mixed together on the winter ranges and selecting non-migratory elk will be impossible.

[kootenayelkslayer]

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at the number of hunters out there who would give their left nut for a reasonable chance at a 3-5 pt bull thats as easy to kill as a moth!

You will retain / increase more hunters with increased opportunity!!

There's a hint of preservationist there regarding the thought hunters should look at other options.

So why can't that 3-5 pt bull instead be a cow/calf/spike? Why do we have to kill the young bulls?

[Fisher-Dude]

I'd shoot a six point on a road too, haha but it just doesn't happen to me. Like i said before, I'm not saying that if you don't shoot a 6 pt your not working hard enough. I just think that those who are fed up with not finding 6pts should look to other options that don't include shooting young bulls that are about as easy to kill as a moth.

You're still coming across as "elitist" when you say that a younger bull is "easy" to kill. That's pure BS. I've hunted elk in the EK for 31 years, and the only "easy" one I killed was a 323 inch 6 point! Elk hunting is no gimme. Seeing large numbers of non-migratory elk on ranches that you can't hunt (or that allow only their buddies to hunt) leaves the rest of the backcountry for the majority of hunters, and believe me, there are no herds of "stupid raghorns" standing around waiting for a bullet.

Misinformation like this is what causes game managers to bow to ill-conceived notions and make decisions that ruin hunting opportunities, hinder hunter recruitment and retention, and harm the health of the herds by allowing them to explode over carrying capacity. Remember, the kill off of cows/calves through way too many LEHs in the late 80s/early 90s was because misinformation was used by the ranching community to pressure managers into poor decisions. You're risking this again by allowing too high a population to face a difficult winter - the resulting die-off will be catastrophic.

[BCrams]

So why can't that 3-5 pt bull instead be a cow/calf/spike? Why do we have to kill the young bulls?

I believe the elk harvest should occur across the entire age / sex demographic.

Don't worry - there will be lots of 6 pt bulls around for you to chase and hunt!!

[kootenayelkslayer]

[quote=BCrams;357665]

So, the elk herd needs some level of population control, but considering the large non-migratory component and the overall damage they are doing, it seems logical that is the component we should be targeting for reduction. If we wait until after the 15 to 20th of Oct the migratory and non-migratory elk will be mixed together on the winter ranges and selecting non-migratory elk will be impossible.

I agree. So why can't focus more on targeting cows instead of young bulls? Wouldn't that work better for controlling populations?
The young bulls aren't really contributing to the increasing population, its the cows and the big bulls that are doing the breeding.

[Fisher-Dude]

I would appreciate seeing the proof you spoke of that a six point season is horrible for the elk population.

Here is one study:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3809146

Here's an exerpt:
If the number of points on the antlers is genetically determined in elk as it is in white-tailed deer, these plans may be selectively eliminating genetically superior bulls and retaining inferior bulls. Continued use could cause a progressive decrease in frequency of genes favorable to development of large well branched antlers, and consequently could cause a progressive loss of trophy class animals.


When I can find the EK elk recovery plan online again, I'll post the link. 6616 may have it. It does categorically state that the 6 point season is only recommended to rebuild the herd, and that leaving it in place will harm the health of the herd. We're way past the "rebuilding" stage here (too bad the Maple Leafs can't say that :tongue:).

[kootenayelkslayer]

I believe the elk harvest should occur across the entire age / sex demographic.

Don't worry - there will be lots of 6 pt bulls around for you to chase and hunt!!

Haha, I do like to debate with you about elk! What if we were talking about an idea that threatened to reduce all those trophy mulies that you love to hunt? :)

[The Hermit]

If you change it to 5x5, it would end up a slaughter-fest and it would be years before there would be a substantial 6x6 population again, who wants a small 5 point on the wall anyways, its 6 or go home!!!!!

Who cares about horns on the wall... most of us are interested proper management and in meat in the freezer.

[Fisher-Dude]

The young bulls aren't really contributing to the increasing population, its the cows and the big bulls that are doing the breeding.

Where do you get that information? I agree that cows are doing the breeding (no doubt!), but are you sure that a demographic of big bulls is doing all the breeding when we are targeting all of our hunting efforts on them? Are we pressuring that segment of the elk population to the point that hunter-pursued 6 points are being disturbed from their duties, losing their cows when chased by hunters, and the younger, non-targeted and undisturbed bulls are slipping in to perform the task?

[rocksteady]

So do you agree that opening up a late cow/calf/spike season could be beneficial? .


I asked this of the local biologist who said they would not touch it because too many people feel that the cows would be "pregnant" at the time....Howeveer, if you have an early rut, the cows are pregnant before the bow season even opens on Sep 1.

Too much of a political hot-potatoe !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[kootenayelkslayer]

Here is one study:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3809146

Here's an exerpt:
If the number of points on the antlers is genetically determined in elk as it is in white-tailed deer, these plans may be selectively eliminating genetically superior bulls and retaining inferior bulls. Continued use could cause a progressive decrease in frequency of genes favorable to development of large well branched antlers, and consequently could cause a progressive loss of trophy class animals.


When I can find the EK elk recovery plan online again, I'll post the link. 6616 may have it. It does categorically state that the 6 point season is only recommended to rebuild the herd, and that leaving it in place will harm the health of the herd. We're way past the "rebuilding" stage here (too bad the Maple Leafs can't say that :tongue:).

If you start bashing my Maple Leafs too then this thread might start to really get out of hand haha.
But i think the the 6-point antler is not so much a genetic trait as it the trait of a mature elk. The majority of bulls will grow into six points, genetics will just determine what kind of six point is grown.

[6616]

I believe the elk harvest should occur across the entire age / sex demographic.

Don't worry - there will be lots of 6 pt bulls around for you to chase and hunt!!

One could easily control population growth through harvesting cows and calves, as a matter of fact one absolutelly has to, you simply cannot control population densities by harvesting males only, that's what the youth/senior, bow, and LEH season is designed to do.

I agree with BCrams, a balanced age class and social structure is essential to any species and antler point restrictions that target specific age classes eventually do harm to a population. The mule deer 4pt regulation inclusive. Many biologists agree that these need to be temporary measures at best. Hunting harvests should represent a cross-section of the herd age and sex classes.

It makes no sense to hunt six point bulls only when we have 30+ bulls per 100 cows. If we had a very low bull/cow ratio we might want to, but we're growing a lot of elk, bulls included, and white tailed deer right now to feed wolves and cougars, which in turn are expanding and compromising mule deer and sheep populations. That is another situation we don't want getting out of balance. That already happened in the EK once and it made it very difficult to recover the deer and elk populations after the 96/97 die-offs. That's why the BCWF is considering promoting an "any deer" white tail management strategy like they have on the prairie provinces.

Why waste potential hunting oportunties (to feed wolves or to starve to death) when we're trying to expand the ranks of hunters? We need to look at the bigger picture and the long-term objectives of wildlife management don't we guys?

[kootenayelkslayer]

Where do you get that information? I agree that cows are doing the breeding (no doubt!), but are you sure that a demographic of big bulls is doing all the breeding when we are targeting all of our hunting efforts on them? Are we pressuring that segment of the elk population to the point that hunter-pursued 6 points are being disturbed from their duties, losing their cows when chased by hunters, and the younger, non-targeted and undisturbed bulls are slipping in to perform the task?

Thats a good point. But I think its safe to say that the majority of the breeding gets done by the herd bull, which is usually a mature bull. And you're right, the odd young bull gets in there and gives a cow a poke.
But i think most of the 6 points that are getting shot aren't actually herd bulls, so I don't think that we are necessarily targeting breeding bulls.

[6616]

Here is one study:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3809146

Here's an exerpt:
If the number of points on the antlers is genetically determined in elk as it is in white-tailed deer, these plans may be selectively eliminating genetically superior bulls and retaining inferior bulls. Continued use could cause a progressive decrease in frequency of genes favorable to development of large well branched antlers, and consequently could cause a progressive loss of trophy class animals.


When I can find the EK elk recovery plan online again, I'll post the link. 6616 may have it. It does categorically state that the 6 point season is only recommended to rebuild the herd, and that leaving it in place will harm the health of the herd. We're way past the "rebuilding" stage here (too bad the Maple Leafs can't say that :tongue:).

I'm glad you didn't say Canucks Pat...! That 1999 - 2003 elk management plan is no longer posted on the MOE web site, but I do have it, if anyone wants a copy PM me an e-mail address.

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm glad you didn't say Canucks Pat...! That 1999 - 2003 elk management plan is no longer posted on the MOE web site, but I do have it, if anyone wants a copy PM me an e-mail address.

If Luongo hadn't been so damned good the past 3 games, I wouldn't have editted my post and put the Maple Laughs in there!

I found the 2000-2004 strategy. Pay attention to the bolded portion. In 4 years, we were to assess the population to see if 6 point was still needed - if so, keep it or restrict it further. OTHERWISE, liberalize the seasons! We've FAILED to follow the study's recommendations!



HARVEST MANAGEMENT OBJECTIVES AND STRATEGIES
1) Optimize hunting opportunity within the constraints of population and demographic
objectives.
• Maintain the current 6 point bull elk harvest strategy to minimize harvest without
restricting hunter participation, and to provide recovery of the bull segment.
• Evaluate the effectiveness of the six point regulation in achieving objectives after
it has been in place for four years (ie. evaluate post 2001 season; implement
possible amendments in 2002 season) ;
• If after 4 years the recovery objectives for bull escapement are not achieved, (e.g.
> 20 bulls/100 cows, 10 branch-antlered bulls/100 cows) modify the bull harvest

43

regulation by further restricting harvest by closing the hunting season,

implementing Limited Entry Hunting or a combination of season closure and
LEH.
• Once population and demographic objectives are met, employ more liberal
seasons designed to provide more recreational opportunity and to maintain elk numbers at desired levels (eg. short, three-point bull seasons, expanded archery seasons).
• Although a standard regulation for the entire sub-region is preferred, it may be
necessary to vary harvest strategies depending on objectives established for the
individual Elk Management Zones.

[riflebuilder]

Late season post rut hunts are the normal seasons for rifle hunts in most States. We are really lucky to be able to hunt during the rut for Bull Elk. I would keep the GOS 6 point rule for the rut and have a 3 or better GOS post rut hunt. And if needed a late season cow, calf quota hunt to keep population numbers at or below carring capacity. To deal with the non-migrating herds the youth senior hunt is good and should be expanded in length to spread out the pressure. Just my opinion

[6616]

I e-mailed you a copy already Pat, now you've got two......(just like the Canucks have two good players)

I've got to go to Cranbrook tomorrow for an all day meeting, seems likely I'll not be able to keep up with these elk threads much longer as I expect there might be a lot of postings..

[Fisher-Dude]

Re: carrying capacity. The most recent elk inventory has estimates in the 32,000 - 35,000 range for the EK, with some pundits placing the actual population even higher. Note that in 2000, the net carrying capacity of the EK was 24,400! Think we aren't in for a big die-off the next time we have a tough winter? Think again!



Preliminary results from the capability/suitability mapping project indicate that the East Kootenay sub-region has the gross capability to support about 67,800 elk, assuming all habitat (public and private) is in optimal condition to provide elk winter range. Netting out, or removing all capability associated with private land reduces this figure to 40,600. Current habitat condition on all potential winter range (gross suitability) is estimated to support 41,400 elk, while the net suitability (minus private land) has the potential to support 24,400 elk. Net winter habitat suitability by Elk Management Zone (Appendix 1) indicates the two zones comprising most of the East Kootenay Trench could support about 16,500 elk, the Elk Valley 3,100, and Upper Columbia 4,800 elk.

[DWH]

Here is one study:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3809146

Here's an exerpt:
If the number of points on the antlers is genetically determined in elk as it is in white-tailed deer, these plans may be selectively eliminating genetically superior bulls and retaining inferior bulls. Continued use could cause a progressive decrease in frequency of genes favorable to development of large well branched antlers, and consequently could cause a progressive loss of trophy class animals.


When I can find the EK elk recovery plan online again, I'll post the link. 6616 may have it. It does categorically state that the 6 point season is only recommended to rebuild the herd, and that leaving it in place will harm the health of the herd. We're way past the "rebuilding" stage here (too bad the Maple Leafs can't say that :tongue:).

As I don't have access to the rest of this article (without shelling out $$$), I have to assume that you have read the rest of it, and as such I have a question that hopefully you can answer.

Since this report is based on a computer simulation of parameters, after all the author first statement is: "Because long-term effects of harvest on elk are largely unknown...", what is the efficacy of the results that result from altering the variables that are input? More simply put, how close to reality are the results that a computer spits out based on a bunch of entered data that includes a range of inputs? How true are computer simulations when considering "real-world" applications? Would you be willing to bet a elk population's health, conservation and longevity on a computer program that may be fundamentally flawed?

If it ain't broke why fix it? Or in this case, why alter it? Is it because we guess that it isn't good for for the population (Seems to be doing OK right now), to improve hunter recruitment/retention (limited at best), to reduce habitat impacts (how about livestock impacts), to reduce non-migratory populations (targets should be at the cows/calves at lower elevations to reduce these numbers), to make hunting easier (why the hell should that be a priority).

To err on the side of caution would indicate that taking baby steps would be more prudent to ensure that population impacts are minimal. Such as trying a limited opening at 5 pt or better before jumping to 3 pt. And combining it with similar openings in other areas of the province to distribute the pressure the area would see if antler restrictions were drastically reduced (just ask hunters in MU 8-15 last year that had to deal with the new elk season there - and it was 6 pt or better!).

Of course with anything that has been typed in this thread (and the many other threads like this one), this is only one person's opinion. Saying that seemingly allows me to be able to say anything I want without repercussions.

[Fisher-Dude]

As I don't have access to the rest of this article (without shelling out $$$), I have to assume that you have read the rest of it, and as such I have a question that hopefully you can answer.

Since this report is based on a computer simulation of parameters, after all the author first statement is: "Because long-term effects of harvest on elk are largely unknown...", what is the efficacy of the results that result from altering the variables that are input?

The report I'm referring to doesn't open with that statement. Are you looking at Raedeke's 1985 report?

More simply put, how close to reality are the results that a computer spits out based on a bunch of entered data that includes a range of inputs? How true are computer simulations when considering "real-world" applications? Would you be willing to bet a elk population's health, conservation and longevity on a computer program that may be fundamentally flawed?

I'm willing to bet that the next bad winter is going to decimate the elk herd in the EK again. Decades of wildlife research has shown that ungulate populations near, at, or over carrying capacity will suffer huge losses during bad winters.

If it ain't broke why fix it? Or in this case, why alter it?

It is broke. See the above statement on carrying capacity.

Is it because we guess that it isn't good for for the population (Seems to be doing OK right now), to improve hunter recruitment/retention (limited at best), to reduce habitat impacts (how about livestock impacts), to reduce non-migratory populations (targets should be at the cows/calves at lower elevations to reduce these numbers), to make hunting easier (why the hell should that be a priority).

"Seems to be doing OK right now" - so were the record populations we had before the last crash. We didn't react properly to manage those populations.

Hunter recruitment and retention is a huge issue when looking at elk opportunities. From the study: Elk Valley - hunters went from an average in the 80s of 3500 - 4000 down to 900 - 1500 when the restrictive seasons came in. East Trench hunters went from 4000 - 4800 down to 1000 - 1500. West Trench went from 3500 - 4500 to 1700 - 2500. Those hunter number changes are a direct result of lost hunting opportunities.

Livestock - if we were half as good at lobbying as the ranchers, we'd be miles ahead in game management in this province. Sadly, we're a bunch of unpaid volunteers, while they are well-funded and in it for the $$$.

Why the hell should we make hunting easier? Because, if you've seen the demographics of the hunting population in BC, you will see a huge shift in the majority of hunters being in the 45 - 65 age range, where 20 years ago, the majority was in the 25 - 45 year old range. We're a geriatric bunch. The vast majority of us can't hike in 30 km and pack a 6 point elk out of a road closure anymore. We need to retain this hunter age group as mentors for new hunters. Kill these guys off by making hunting tough, and you lose their kids from the sport (recruitment) too. That will spell the end of all hunting for sure. We can't risk that - and when populations will support more opportunities for folks, we need to support it, not fight it.

To err on the side of caution would indicate that taking baby steps would be more prudent to ensure that population impacts are minimal. Such as trying a limited opening at 5 pt or better before jumping to 3 pt. And combining it with similar openings in other areas of the province to distribute the pressure the area would see if antler restrictions were drastically reduced (just ask hunters in MU 8-15 last year that had to deal with the new elk season there - and it was 6 pt or better!).

8-15 is a good example of opening up an area to provide more opportunity without a corresponding conservation concern from harvest. High odds LEH in 8-15 in 2006 resulted in 15 elk being harvested. The combined early season LEH and late season GOS 6 point resulted in 17 elk being killed in 2007. An increase in opportunity, and no statistical increase in harvest. And this despite the huge pressure that you allude to!

I agree with you on opening MORE areas to help distribute hunters. I have a plan to open all bull moose and 3 point elk province wide (where there are no conservation concerns) with coordinated seasons, aggregate bag limit of one (either an elk or a moose, not both). Who needs more meat than one of these animals?

Of course with anything that has been typed in this thread (and the many other threads like this one), this is only one person's opinion. Saying that seemingly allows me to be able to say anything I want without repercussions.

Flail away! I sure as hell do! :p



............

[boxhitch]

I have a plan
Driv'er, Macgiver ! Whats the schedule for 'F-D on tour' ?

[PGK]

Funny, a late cow season will fly in the Peace, but not in your backyard because of goody goody feelings about dead fetuses? What a joke.

Hunter recruitment and retention will ruin this province's game populations. What began as a good idea has turned into a slaughter-all mess, opening up seasons left and right with no thought for proper (conservative, conservation-based) management. I'm embarrassed to say that I had a helping hand in kicking this program off the ground!

Has anyone considered what will happen to wolf or cougar populations if and when this supposed overpopulated EK elk population crashes? You're probably going to get a hell of a lot of predation on everyone's favourite mule deer herds, not to mention the already fubared caribou populations.

What a mess

[Fisher-Dude]

Kris, I thought you were a self-professed fish guy? :biggrin:

[BCrams]

I'm embarrassed to say that I had a helping hand in kicking this program off the ground!



What? embarrassed? Why?

[PGK]

Kris, I thought you were a self-professed fish guy? :biggrin:

I'm just stoking your fire. So you can have something to complain about on a wednesday night.

From what I hear, the guys that don't see 6pts are the guys on quads.

I don't like getting involved in this crap anymore because all it ends up being is whiney whiney around the board room table and the actual decisions get made behind closed doors by the people who actually matter, who probably read this garbage and shake their collective heads.

Giggle.

[Fisher-Dude]

What? embarrassed? Why?

I think he's referring to the hybrid doe proposal that recruited and retained several hunters in the McBride area. Okay, that's enough, hijack over! :tongue:

[rocksteady]

Funny, a late cow season will fly in the Peace, but not in your backyard because of goody goody feelings about dead fetuses? What a joke.




That is the way that some locals look at it....East Kootenay Evironmental Society, Wildsite, BearAware...You name it, we have defenders of it...

[hunter1947]

I know that the EK can handle a 5 or better GOS for a few years.

They should open it up for a year or two for 5 or better to thin out some of these 5x5.

My thought on why there are so many 5 point elk is that there is a poor jean pool and a lot of these 5 points will not develop into a 6 or better.

Buy opening up the season for one or two years will help reduce these poor jean pool RME.

There are still a number of good jean pool bull elk out there but the numbers are declining as the years go on they do get some breeding in before a number get shot off.

I have been seeing less heard bulls like 6x or bigger in the past 6 years of hunting these RME.

These poor jean pool bulls are breeding with the cows and passing there jean pool on to there younger generation and thats not a good thing that is happening.

There still is a few strong jean pool elk that are being recruited that will grow up to be a strong jean pool heard bull but not like years ago when the took the presser off the 6 or better buy opening the season up for 3 or better in the latter part of sept.

I say go for it and open up a GOS for 5 or better but management will have to keep tabs on the GOS for REM is they do decide to do this ,one year or two will tell us if this will work out or not and if it does not work out then go back to 6 or better GOS ,thats my opinion H-47http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[ELKOHOLICBC]

Not cutting my tag doesn't say anything about the way I hunt Kenkell. This was my wifes year to pull the trigger, I shot mine last year. You my want to read my reply better, I didn't say anyone sucks at hunting just you might want to change your ways of hunting or where you hunt. The funny thing everyone complains theres no 6pts and what do you think everyones going to complain about in a few years , THERES NO 5PTS NOW lets have an any bull open season we dont see any 5s to shoot. And Kenkell im sure you haven't shot every animal that you could of. For me I dont rate my success on if I cut my tag or not, hunting trips are a vacation for me not a trip of oh my god I have to kill the first bull elk i see.

[DWH]

Originally Posted by DWH http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=357787#post357787)
As I don't have access to the rest of this article (without shelling out $$$), I have to assume that you have read the rest of it, and as such I have a question that hopefully you can answer.

Since this report is based on a computer simulation of parameters, after all the author first statement is: "Because long-term effects of harvest on elk are largely unknown...", what is the efficacy of the results that result from altering the variables that are input?

The report I'm referring to doesn't open with that statement. Are you looking at Raedeke's 1985 report?

You tell me by clicking on the link that you posted. It is titled: "Effects of Harvest on Antlers of Simulated Elk Populations" and the author is Thomas H. Thelen.

More simply put, how close to reality are the results that a computer spits out based on a bunch of entered data that includes a range of inputs? How true are computer simulations when considering "real-world" applications? Would you be willing to bet a elk population's health, conservation and longevity on a computer program that may be fundamentally flawed?

I'm willing to bet that the next bad winter is going to decimate the elk herd in the EK again. Decades of wildlife research has shown that ungulate populations near, at, or over carrying capacity will suffer huge losses during bad winters.

So if the population is at 35,000 and we have a hard winter, how many will be left? Compare that with a population of say 15,000 (after overexagerated liberal hunting season) and how many will be left? Liberal hunting season and harsh winters decimated the elk herd back when the bio was DiMarchi. How long has the population taken to recover from that $hite-show? Does the current hunter numbers necesitate a jump back to that regime just to see if it works this time?

If it ain't broke why fix it? Or in this case, why alter it?

It is broke. See the above statement on carrying capacity.

The EK management plan was developed when? Is it a possiblilty that habitat conditions have changed since then? Variables such as the amount of logging that has occurred since then, management directions to enhance elk habitats (HCTF funded), and even such things as less harsh winters due to global climate change. There are a multitude of factors that have come to be a reality of making a decision based on an outdated sustainability model not responsible.


Is it because we guess that it isn't good for for the population (Seems to be doing OK right now), to improve hunter recruitment/retention (limited at best), to reduce habitat impacts (how about livestock impacts), to reduce non-migratory populations (targets should be at the cows/calves at lower elevations to reduce these numbers), to make hunting easier (why the hell should that be a priority).

"Seems to be doing OK right now" - so were the record populations we had before the last crash. We didn't react properly to manage those populations.

Hunter recruitment and retention is a huge issue when looking at elk opportunities. From the study: Elk Valley - hunters went from an average in the 80s of 3500 - 4000 down to 900 - 1500 when the restrictive seasons came in. East Trench hunters went from 4000 - 4800 down to 1000 - 1500. West Trench went from 3500 - 4500 to 1700 - 2500. Those hunter number changes are a direct result of lost hunting opportunities.

Of course this is only my opinion... but I think that there are also a multitude of factors that have combined to reduce numbers. If you consider wanting individuals to become hunters at a younger age (shortly after being able to hunt) then of course the baby-boom would have resulted in numbers that were high as there were more people to fall into that category. High to the point that those numbers were an abnormality and not the norm. The resulting numbers now are low but more significantly, lower than back then. The other variables that you have to factor in are numerous (costs for travel, fuel, etc..., increased difficulty getting a license, closed areas, and the extend of regulations, etc, etc...). Assuming that the baby-boomer parents were also involved in hunting, were the regulations changed (more liberal) to make hunting easier for them to keep them in the sport longer. I doubt it, there were enough up-and-coming hunters in the inflated next generation. When you ask an old-timer why they are planning to get out of hunting, the easiest option to pick is because of low success (and then go ahead and blame someone else for it - MoE game management) rather than other variables that may or may not factor in just as much or more in determining their continuation in the pursuit of game. You've said it plain and simple (see below), the old-timers are just that old and having a tough time getting game if it isn't on the road. Does the long-term sustainablilty of hunting rights and opportunities necessitate catering to this dwindling population? Of course when I get to be as old as you (I'm so kidding here) I will want to bend if not break all the rules to make things easier to get my meat in the freezer.

Livestock - if we were half as good at lobbying as the ranchers, we'd be miles ahead in game management in this province. Sadly, we're a bunch of unpaid volunteers, while they are well-funded and in it for the $$$.

Why the hell should we make hunting easier? Because, if you've seen the demographics of the hunting population in BC, you will see a huge shift in the majority of hunters being in the 45 - 65 age range, where 20 years ago, the majority was in the 25 - 45 year old range. We're a geriatric bunch. The vast majority of us can't hike in 30 km and pack a 6 point elk out of a road closure anymore. We need to retain this hunter age group as mentors for new hunters. Kill these guys off by making hunting tough, and you lose their kids from the sport (recruitment) too. That will spell the end of all hunting for sure. We can't risk that - and when populations will support more opportunities for folks, we need to support it, not fight it.

Of course you are welcome to an opinion about hunting dying off because our parent-population is making the decision to exchange the walking boots for a walking cane but it has happened since hunting licensing and regulations came about and there will always be a retiring number of hunters every year. It is just that there are more hunters in that category now as the baby-boomer generation ages.

To err on the side of caution would indicate that taking baby steps would be more prudent to ensure that population impacts are minimal. Such as trying a limited opening at 5 pt or better before jumping to 3 pt. And combining it with similar openings in other areas of the province to distribute the pressure the area would see if antler restrictions were drastically reduced (just ask hunters in MU 8-15 last year that had to deal with the new elk season there - and it was 6 pt or better!).

8-15 is a good example of opening up an area to provide more opportunity without a corresponding conservation concern from harvest. High odds LEH in 8-15 in 2006 resulted in 15 elk being harvested. The combined early season LEH and late season GOS 6 point resulted in 17 elk being killed in 2007. An increase in opportunity, and no statistical increase in harvest. And this despite the huge pressure that you allude to!

Seeing more than 30 hunters a day in areas that were well removed from the roads is scary hunting pressure. And all for what?!? An additional 17 elk for how many hunters, hundreds, thousands? Not much of an opportunity and not much success either. If you are going to debate that it is still increased opportunity, well you can head to the EK for an opportunity to shoot a 6 pt or better too!


I agree with you on opening MORE areas to help distribute hunters. I have a plan to open all bull moose and 3 point elk province wide (where there are no conservation concerns) with coordinated seasons, aggregate bag limit of one (either an elk or a moose, not both). Who needs more meat than one of these animals?

How about adding a couple tweeks to that FD?

- Such as not jumping to 3 pts in the first year but 5 pt. If target goals are met (reducing population within limits AND increasing hunter recruitment and retention) then phase into 4 pt and so on as the situation calls for.

- Or even limit the length of the more liberal season until it can be determined that the effects don't exceed limits.

- Adding some component of reporting so that managers can determine if favourable changes are not risking the long-term health of the population. I am not sure how this could be achieved but it would attempt to offset the limited budget that game managers currently have to monitor stocks.

Of course with anything that has been typed in this thread (and the many other threads like this one), this is only one person's opinion. Saying that seemingly allows me to be able to say anything I want without repercussions.

Flail away! I sure as hell do! :razz:

[Moosenose]

This thread has created a lot of interest and that is good.
Lots of banter back and forth and suggestions. A few cheap shots (not so good, but on the open forum, part of the package).
Back to the subject of why so many 5X5's.
Yes, there are a lot of 5X5's that will grow and mature into 6 or better, but there are a lot of large mature 5X5's in their prime, as pointed out by many sightings reported here. These genes will be passed on and numbers of these big mature 5 point beasts will increase geometrically if the current culling of 6 points continues. Since man domesticated animals they have been bred to develop and improve certain qualities, size, meat, milk, wool, etc. We are going the wrong way with the continued 6 point season. The EK Management Plan suggested 6 points until 2001. It was a good idea for population recovery, but we are there now, and we are starting to mess with genetics. As pointed out by many here, other areas (provinces and states) have addressed this. Our own BC ungulate biologists know all of this, so expect some hunting season changes. The future will be better for both meat and trophy hunters, and more importantly the elk.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This thread has created a lot of interest and that is good.
Lots of banter back and forth and suggestions. A few cheap shots (not so good, but on the open forum, part of the package).
Back to the subject of why so many 5X5's.
Yes, there are a lot of 5X5's that will grow and mature into 6 or better, but there are a lot of large mature 5X5's in their prime, as pointed out by many sightings reported here. These genes will be passed on and numbers of these big mature 5 point beasts will increase geometrically if the current culling of 6 points continues. Since man domesticated animals they have been bred to develop and improve certain qualities, size, meat, milk, wool, etc. We are going the wrong way with the continued 6 point season. The EK Management Plan suggested 6 points until 2001. It was a good idea for population recovery, but we are there now, and we are starting to mess with genetics. As pointed out by many here, other areas (provinces and states) have addressed this. Our own BC ungulate biologists know all of this, so expect some hunting season changes. The future will be better for both meat and trophy hunters, and more importantly the elk.

Best thing to happen was Woods' retiring....and going to work for the GOABC:-?.

Maybe the management of a "trophy season" is a thing of the past??? And we can get rid of the recovery restrictions.......



SSS

[Onesock]

Ya know, there are not too many biologists here I don't think. Whether you can find a 6 point or not really shouldn't be the question. If continuing the 6 point season will harm the herd by all means change it. We have to do what is best for the elk herd now that we have one. I say change all the season to bow only seasons then we can all hunt for 6 months. Good hey!

[Chasinracks]

not trying to derail the main topic but instead of changing current rules now, how about transplanting some elk or even a moose to region 2-2, 2-3 to relieve hunting pressures in EK area?

[aletheuo]

Plenty of people have tried transplanting fish into our lakes around here... now we have plenty of bass and no trout in many lakes in the east kootenays. Although I'm sure you were'nt serious, ideas like this are dangerous. :?

There's always displacement that happens when non-native species are introduced... perhaps you lose your deer because the land can't carry both... many other ramifications we can't even begin to picture. Ecosystem disruption of major proportions. You don't want this in your areas.

Consider the invasive nature of the european starling. A total of 120 were released in New York city between 1890 - 1891. Look what we have now.

I suppose if the elk wanted to be there they would have walked there by now :razz:

[ELKOHOLICBC]

It isnt about cutting a tag for me either ...hell I never cut a tag this year although I could have if 5 pnt was open.
It's about sustaining what we have now and if the elk are over carrying capacity that spells disaster in the long run....it is only a matter of time.
I have seen it before and don't care to ever re-live it.


Well I think it would be something to look at but it doesn't have to be done in drastic measure right away. This year was a year of 5pts in close for me and the wife also. If theres going to be season like that next year take some areas and try it out or do another LEH in some areas for 3pt or 5pt or any bull. I think changing it down to 3pt or better isn't the right answer to the problem. Controlling the herds is an over looked thing in BC, just like our salmon fishing on the coast, the people in control don't always make the right decision at the time. I think they have to do a little more homework before making these decisions.

[Everett]

No LEH on Elk under any circumstances once there on LEH they will never come off.
Here is my proposal 6pt Sept1 to Till Oct 1, than Oct. 1 till Oct 15th 3pt than back to 6pt from Oct 15th till Oct 25th
Trophy hunter have there 6pt season and us meat hunters get a chance at meat in the freezer.
Oct1 till Oct 15 closed to the guide outfitters
For the bow hunters/muzzleloader hunters an Augest 20th till Sept1 Any Elk season.
The herd could easily handle this at its present numbers.
In conjunction with this switch the west kootenay to 6pt instead of LEH
Any thoughts?

[ELKOHOLICBC]

So you actually want to extend Elk season by 5 days from the current close date of Oct 20?
The way you explain the season I would need a calendar stapled to my forehead so I new how many points to look for LOL. (Just joking)


Your right, it would be hard for the COs to monitor that type of season and I think you would run into the problem of elk getting shot illegally. What would an open season in the WK do to thier populations Everett? Could it with stand it?

[Fisher-Dude]

Your right, it would be hard for the COs to monitor that type of season and I think you would run into the problem of elk getting shot illegally. What would an open season in the WK do to thier populations Everett? Could it with stand it?

Elk already get shot illegally. We have mule deer seasons that are split in the manner Everett speaks of. We cannot manage game under a set of rules in fear of poaching/mistaken kills. We don't cut down every tree on the side of the road for fear that someone will drive into it, do we?

We must manage game for the health of the herd, and to afford hunting opportunities when we can. If it requires some inventive measures to do so, that is what we will use.

Absolutely the WK can handle a GOS. The head bio for the area is trying to get it opened up for a 6 point GOS. The area is steep, thick, and has limited access. There is NO conservation concern for a 6 point GOS in the WK.

[aggiehunter]

NO Conservation concern for GOS 6pt in the Wk is a bold statement.

[Fisher-Dude]

NO Conservation concern for GOS 6pt in the Wk is a bold statement.

From the senior biologist who has studied the hell out of those elk, has studied all the management techniques from other jurisdictions, knows the habitat, knows the history (yes, the ANY elk season that used to be in place), knows how we've hunted 4-18 for years on GOS with NO conservation concern (and we still take dandies every year from 4-18 )...

Bold? Not really. Tell me, what does a detractor like you, aggie, know about managing WK elk? Science please.

[hunter1947]

Aggiehunter Fisher D is right about saying no conservation concern.

What FD means is that the elk are hard to get at so there will be no conservations concern on the WK elk population.

[Everett]

Elk already get shot illegally. We have mule deer seasons that are split in the manner Everett speaks of. We cannot manage game under a set of rules in fear of poaching/mistaken kills. We don't cut down every tree on the side of the road for fear that someone will drive into it, do we?

We must manage game for the health of the herd, and to afford hunting opportunities when we can. If it requires some inventive measures to do so, that is what we will use.

Absolutely the WK can handle a GOS. The head bio for the area is trying to get it opened up for a 6 point GOS. The area is steep, thick, and has limited access. There is NO conservation concern for a 6 point GOS in the WK.

Thanks FD you said it better than I could have, I will add two points though I personally believe there is no need for a 6 point season at all but what I proposed is a compromise to keep the GO`s and the trophy hunters happy.
The core point remains the same the herd in the trench is over carrying capacity and in a bad winter they will starve. If this happens the chief Bio should get the sack because a blind man can see it coming.

[BCrams]

(and we still take dandies every year from 4-18 )...

.

Didn't a monster bull elk come out of there this year??

FD is correct though. The bio on staff knows his stuff and there is absolutly no reason why there cannot be a GOS 6 pt season to start things off in the W. Koots.

[BCrams]

The core point remains the same the herd in the trench is over carrying capacity and in a bad winter they will starve. If this happens the chief Bio should get the sack because a blind man can see it coming.

The bio's have seen this coming for the last few years and want to make the changes......however, the vocal minorities (i.e., Rod and Gun Club membership down there have said they don't want any changes, as do the "trophy hunters" )

[6616]

NO Conservation concern for GOS 6pt in the Wk is a bold statement.

I believe a 6pt season is almost a fail-safe season for bull elk, I don't think it would ever be possible to over-harvest under this scheme. It would be appropriate for the West Kootenay elk if increasing the harvest over the current LEH level is desired.

I don't believe it would be a good strategy over the long term, as explained in other posts regarding genetics and maintaining age class structures in the herd, but it would be a good first step away from LEH.

[6616]

No LEH on Elk under any circumstances once there on LEH they will never come off.
Here is my proposal 6pt Sept1 to Till Oct 1, than Oct. 1 till Oct 15th 3pt than back to 6pt from Oct 15th till Oct 25th
Trophy hunter have there 6pt season and us meat hunters get a chance at meat in the freezer.
Oct1 till Oct 15 closed to the guide outfitters
For the bow hunters/muzzleloader hunters an Augest 20th till Sept1 Any Elk season.
The herd could easily handle this at its present numbers.
In conjunction with this switch the west kootenay to 6pt instead of LEH
Any thoughts?

I envision something very similar to this as well. In conjunction with the youth/senior GOS hunt and an annually adjustable number of antlerless LEH authorizations to regulate population growth, it's almost a perfect solution.

The extension into August, the introduction of muzzle loaders in the bow season, and the exclusion of guide-outfitters during part of the season might require some further thought and discussion since they're somwhat controversial, but generally speaking this is a good workable suggestion in my opinion. Good job Ev.

[6616]

There's also another alternative that has been suggested that no one has commented much on, and that's the suggestion of a "3pt or smaller" GOS. Perhaps a GOS on spike bulls? Would the sustainability of this not be similar to the spike/fork moose season? Are a percentage of yearling elk 4 pointers? What percentage of the yearling population would be vulnerable in a 3pt bull GOS, or a spike bull GOS? Would the survivability level still be sufficient to fill the recruitment requirements?

[Fisher-Dude]

There's also another alternative that has been suggested that no one has commented much on, and that's the suggestion of a "3pt or smaller" GOS. Perhaps a GOS on spike bulls? Would the sustainability of this not be similar to the spike/fork moose season? Are a percentage of yearling elk 4 pointers? What percentage of the yearling population would be vulnerable in a 3pt bull GOS, or a spike bull GOS? Would the survivability level still be sufficient to fill the recruitment requirements?

Since 1978 in the EK, I have seen:

One 2 point bull (freaky bugger at that!)
Zero 3 point bulls
Numerous spikes
One dead 1x6 freak

The rest have been 4 and more points. Moose have about 40% of yearling bulls that meet spike/fork regulations, meaning 60% are not available for harvest, and thus ensuring sufficient escapement for recruitment. I don't believe the same can be said about spike bull elk - any 4 points or larger that we harvested were 2.5 or more in age. Thus, I wouldn't support a 3 point or less season because I feel it would target close to 100% of a single age class, ie all yearling bulls with no age class escapement possibility.

[riflebuilder]

I don't think you need to exclude guide outfitters from hunting during the 3 and better season just regulate that all non-resident harvest of Elk is 6 point or better. I like the idea of a longer early season primitive weapons season, along with a late season LEH on cow calf the population will be able to be kept at desired levels and offer a lot of hunting opertunities for resident hunters. I do believe that the GOS in the rut should stay at 6 point or better. Just my opion

[Kody94]

There's also another alternative that has been suggested that no one has commented much on, and that's the suggestion of a "3pt or smaller" GOS. Perhaps a GOS on spike bulls? Would the sustainability of this not be similar to the spike/fork moose season? Are a percentage of yearling elk 4 pointers? What percentage of the yearling population would be vulnerable in a 3pt bull GOS, or a spike bull GOS? Would the survivability level still be sufficient to fill the recruitment requirements?


Since 1978 in the EK, I have seen:

One 2 point bull (freaky bugger at that!)
Zero 3 point bulls
Numerous spikes
One dead 1x6 freak

The rest have been 4 and more points. Moose have about 40% of yearling bulls that meet spike/fork regulations, meaning 60% are not available for harvest, and thus ensuring sufficient escapement for recruitment. I don't believe the same can be said about spike bull elk - any 4 points or larger that we harvested were 2.5 or more in age. Thus, I wouldn't support a 3 point or less season because I feel it would target close to 100% of a single age class, ie all yearling bulls with no age class escapement possibility.

6616,
I have apparenlty seen about a hundred times more 3pt and less bulls than F-D (heck, I have even picked up at least a half dozen 2 pt elk sheds, which are by all accounts quite rare, and have observed 3 3pts in one single road hunt this year), but my only concern with 3pt and less season is the same as yours. I am not sure how many bulls with 3pts or less on one antler are 2.5 or older, or how many 1.5 yo's would be 4 pts and greater (escapement).

[Chasinracks]

Plenty of people have tried transplanting fish into our lakes around here... now we have plenty of bass and no trout in many lakes in the east kootenays. Although I'm sure you were'nt serious, ideas like this are dangerous. :?

There's always displacement that happens when non-native species are introduced... perhaps you lose your deer because the land can't carry both... many other ramifications we can't even begin to picture. Ecosystem disruption of major proportions. You don't want this in your areas.

Consider the invasive nature of the european starling. A total of 120 were released in New York city between 1890 - 1891. Look what we have now.

I suppose if the elk wanted to be there they would have walked there by now :razz:


i don't think there's any animal to displace on these MUs man! Maybe a couple of blacktails but it's already been harvested by 2 of our members here.
The chilliwack/hope area is a wide wilderness that's connected to MU-8 and you're right, I wonder myself why them elks or moose haven't wandered to these areas. Maybe they immigrated to the USA instead!

[J_T]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Everett http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=358445#post358445)
No LEH on Elk under any circumstances once there on LEH they will never come off.
Here is my proposal 6pt Sept1 to Till Oct 1, than Oct. 1 till Oct 15th 3pt than back to 6pt from Oct 15th till Oct 25th
Trophy hunter have there 6pt season and us meat hunters get a chance at meat in the freezer.
Oct1 till Oct 15 closed to the guide outfitters
For the bow hunters/muzzleloader hunters an Augest 20th till Sept1 Any Elk season.
The herd could easily handle this at its present numbers.
In conjunction with this switch the west kootenay to 6pt instead of LEH
Any thoughts?

I envision something very similar to this as well. In conjunction with the youth/senior GOS hunt and an annually adjustable number of antlerless LEH authorizations to regulate population growth, it's almost a perfect solution.

The extension into August, the introduction of muzzle loaders in the bow season, and the exclusion of guide-outfitters during part of the season might require some further thought and discussion since they're somwhat controversial, but generally speaking this is a good workable suggestion in my opinion. Good job Ev.

I feel what we do with the elk in the EK, must be considered with what we are, or are not doing with the elk in the WK. Most data presented suggests we can certainly enhance hunting opportunity in the WK without conservation concerns.
West Kootenay of Reg 4
I would propose enhancing/creating more hunting opportunity - Sept 1 - 9 archery season. Currently exists in 4-18, would be additive to the hunting experience and would take some pressure off the EK.
Open some MU's in the WK to a 6 pt season. Consider access restrictions and private land issues.

East Kootenay of Reg 4
Align the start of the season to Aug 23rd. This is the same as Reg 1.
Aug 23rd - Sept 9 - bow only (continued Jr whitetail Rifle) Any elk in the Agricultural Lands, bulls only elsewhere
Sept 10 - 19 - Jr / Sr antlerless elk in the Agricultural Lands. Supports elk reduction in over grazed areas of the trench and elk rancher conflict.
Sept 10 - Oct 20 - GOS 6 pt elk. Maintains status quo for 6 pt hunters.
Sept 10 - 19 - archery "any elk" in the agricultural lands. Additive opportunity for most hunters. Targets elk/rancher conflict. (Uptake, minimal)
Sept 21 - Sept 30 - 3pt or less elk. (not isolated to the Agricultural Land)

[Fisher-Dude]

6616,
I have apparenlty seen about a hundred times more 3pt and less bulls than F-D (heck, I have even picked up at least a half dozen 2 pt elk sheds, which are by all accounts quite rare, and have observed 3 3pts in one single road hunt this year), but my only concern with 3pt and less season is the same as yours. I am not sure how many bulls with 3pts or less on one antler are 2.5 or older, or how many 1.5 yo's would be 4 pts and greater (escapement).

Well, that explains it, you're one of those damned road hunters! :tongue:

I'll say I've seen 100s of spikes, but squat for 2s and 3s. And go figure, the 2 point was 30 feet from me during that 90s "transitional phase" where 3 point or better season started after the rut! :?

[ratherbefishin]

so -what accounts for so many 5 points-and so few 6 points?It seems to me,not being a biologist-that either many 5 points NEVER will become 6 points-or there is some mysterious die off of 6 point bulls.Can someone knowleable in genetics tell me if a 5 point will almost always be a 6 point the following year?[I know many blacktails never go beyond forks-could the same be true of 5 point bull elk -they are mature breeding bulls but will never go beyond that?

[brotherjack]

so -what accounts for so many 5 points-and so few 6 points?It seems to me,not being a biologist-that either many 5 points NEVER will become 6 points-or there is some mysterious die off of 6 point bulls.Can someone knowleable in genetics tell me if a 5 point will almost always be a 6 point the following year?[I know many blacktails never go beyond forks-could the same be true of 5 point bull elk -they are mature breeding bulls but will never go beyond that?

Other than genetics, which you will eventually get a predominance of under a 6 point harvest strategy -- It's an age related thing, is my understanding (admittedly I say that based on some fairly casual reading of some fairly non-casual research). 5 point is typically the default size for a younger bull - and in any wild population of animals, the younger ones outnumber the older ones by a fairly large percentage -- even in un-hunted populations, there are probably 2 yearlings for every one 2.5 year old, predation, winter-kill, etc cut the numbers down pretty fast before they get to be old animals (and they die off pretty fast for the same reasons once they get old enough to be weaker).

I also think, that with elk in particular, the problem of locating a six point (other than for a select few of you), is that when you find a herd - the biggest bull in the bunch is probably not the one that comes over to see you when you play with your elk call, it's probably one of the younger ones (who, as mentioned, is probably a 5 point).

And of course, the situation is also one, that 6 points get shot, and 5 points don't, which makes for fewer six points.

So, basically, unless you're one of those people who know the secret to locating 6 point elk that the other 90% of us don't (and no, it's not "get out of the truck" - I wear out a pair of boots every year, and it hasn't helped one bit) - your odds of coming upon a 5 point are really pretty good, and your odds of coming on a 6 point are nearly nil.

[6616]

6616,
I have apparenlty seen about a hundred times more 3pt and less bulls than F-D (heck, I have even picked up at least a half dozen 2 pt elk sheds, which are by all accounts quite rare, and have observed 3 3pts in one single road hunt this year), but my only concern with 3pt and less season is the same as yours. I am not sure how many bulls with 3pts or less on one antler are 2.5 or older, or how many 1.5 yo's would be 4 pts and greater (escapement).

I agree, I would want to know a lot more about the demographics of the yearling to 2 1/2 year old age classes before supporting the 3pt and under idea, however I would be somewhat more comfortable with a spike season. There could be a considerable number of yearlings with branched antlers which would provide recruitment from the better gene pool. Again that assumption would have to be known first.

[6616]

I feel what we do with the elk in the EK, must be considered with what we are, or are not doing with the elk in the WK. Most data presented suggests we can certainly enhance hunting opportunity in the WK without conservation concerns.
West Kootenay of Reg 4
I would propose enhancing/creating more hunting opportunity - Sept 1 - 9 archery season. Currently exists in 4-18, would be additive to the hunting experience and would take some pressure off the EK.
Open some MU's in the WK to a 6 pt season. Consider access restrictions and private land issues.

East Kootenay of Reg 4
Align the start of the season to Aug 23rd. This is the same as Reg 1.
Aug 23rd - Sept 9 - bow only (continued Jr whitetail Rifle) Any elk in the Agricultural Lands, bulls only elsewhere
Sept 10 - 19 - Jr / Sr antlerless elk in the Agricultural Lands. Supports elk reduction in over grazed areas of the trench and elk rancher conflict.
Sept 10 - Oct 20 - GOS 6 pt elk. Maintains status quo for 6 pt hunters.
Sept 10 - 19 - archery "any elk" in the agricultural lands. Additive opportunity for most hunters. Targets elk/rancher conflict. (Uptake, minimal)
Sept 21 - Sept 30 - 3pt or less elk. (not isolated to the Agricultural Land)

I think this is a supportable combination. I would feel really good about supporting it if the Peace region would also initiate a 3 pt season for the same time frame (Sept 21st to Sept 30th).

Of course this would all be on top of the LEH antlerless which is the main population control measure that we really need.

I would also consider some flexibility with the date of the Youth/Senior GOS as we want that to impact the over-populations situation as well as the non-migratory population so we want it timed to harvest as many antlerless elk as possible and early enough that the harvest is largely from the non-migratory component. We also want it timed so as not to disrupt too much other elk hunting activity, as I've been told is is a fairly serious disruption.

All antlerless hunts must end before Oct 15 to 20th to maximize applying the harvest pressure to the non-migratory component. If we need to reduce the elk population it only makes sense to apply the reduction to the non-migratory component as much as possible.

[6616]

Other than genetics, which you will eventually get a predominance of under a 6 point harvest strategy -- It's an age related thing, is my understanding (admittedly I say that based on some fairly casual reading of some fairly non-casual research). 5 point is typically the default size for a younger bull - and in any wild population of animals, the younger ones outnumber the older ones by a fairly large percentage -- even in un-hunted populations, there are probably 2 yearlings for every one 2.5 year old, predation, winter-kill, etc cut the numbers down pretty fast before they get to be old animals (and they die off pretty fast for the same reasons once they get old enough to be weaker).

I also think, that with elk in particular, the problem of locating a six point (other than for a select few of you), is that when you find a herd - the biggest bull in the bunch is probably not the one that comes over to see you when you play with your elk call, it's probably one of the younger ones (who, as mentioned, is probably a 5 point).

And of course, the situation is also one, that 6 points get shot, and 5 points don't, which makes for fewer six points.

So, basically, unless you're one of those people who know the secret to locating 6 point elk that the other 90% of us don't (and no, it's not "get out of the truck" - I wear out a pair of boots every year, and it hasn't helped one bit) - your odds of coming upon a 5 point are really pretty good, and your odds of coming on a 6 point are nearly nil.

I pretty much agree BJ. There "is for sure" a die-off of 6 pointers every year, about 800 to 1000 to be exact, and it's really not all that mysterious, they fall to us, the two legged predator packing heat.

Most yearlings are spikes, but there may be a component of fork or three pointers as well as a few small 4 pointers.

Most 2 1/2 year olds are raghorn five pointers, but there is also a component that are 4 pointers and possibly 3 pointers, even a few that are raghorn 6 pointers.

Most 3 1/2 year olds are 5 pointers or rag horn 6 pointers, and beyond 3 1/2 years of age most are 6 pointers of varying size depending on age and genetics.

Bull elk move from spikes to raghorn 5 pointers very quickly, many in conscecutive years, making 4 pointers and 3 pointers less then numerous.

I'm sure there is a component of large 5 pointers that will never be six pointers but I suspect the number not as high as people think, however I also suspect and it concerns me that this number could be increasing due to our current 6 pt only harvest strategy. We need to remember that a 5 point season is certainly not guaranteed to eliminate this genetic trait as most elk killed in a five point season are going to be between the ages of 2 1/2 and 4 1/2.

I still believe the best harvest strategy is a stratgey that would result in harvest from all age and sex classes to maintain functional herd social structures. This would keep the elk population healthier and would also allow the maximum sustained yield to be harvested. Antlerless harvests would primarily serve the purpose of keeping the herd densities to comfortable levels.

[brotherjack]

I still believe the best harvest strategy is a stratgey that would result in harvest from all age and sex classes to maintain functional herd social structures.

I was having a chat with a guy down in Idaho a month or two back. Their GOS season is any-bull, as well as a short GOS antlerless season to boot. Seems to work pretty well for them - he said he couldn't recall the last year he didn't dine on elk meat all winter.

I know, I know, different terrain, different demographics, different population dymanics, would never work here, etc...

[Kody94]

So, basically, unless you're one of those people who know the secret to locating 6 point elk that the other 90% of us don't (and no, it's not "get out of the truck" - I wear out a pair of boots every year, and it hasn't helped one bit) - your odds of coming upon a 5 point are really pretty good, and your odds of coming on a 6 point are nearly nil.

BroJack...that last paragraph is just a little over the top, no?

The actual success rate on 6 pt bulls is closer to 20% than nil. And practically everyone I know 'came across' at least one 6 point in the course of the season (although many did not connect). Many of these people only shoot a 6 point every 2 to 5 years on average. Only a couple of them would qualify as the "select few" that manage to shoot one every year.

One of the guys in my office was in on 3 6pt bull kills this year. All near Cranbrook.

You may not be one of the lucky ones, but I don't think your stats are particularly accurate. I believe your rate of success on finding 6pts is a lot less common than you might be thinking. It is possible to flip 10 heads in a row....but odds will win out eventually. You're likely due for a flood of bulls.

[Kody94]

Well, that explains it, you're one of those damned road hunters! :tongue:

I'll say I've seen 100s of spikes, but squat for 2s and 3s. And go figure, the 2 point was 30 feet from me during that 90s "transitional phase" where 3 point or better season started after the rut! :?

A guys gotta do what he can. :)

On the elk, well, I am in the Koots at least 50 weeks a year. I get to look at a LOT of elk compared to you OK guys.

[brotherjack]

The actual success rate on 6 pt bulls is closer to 20% than nil. And practically everyone I know 'came across' at least one 6 point in the course of the season

Yeah, well, good for practically everyone you know. I don't personally know anyone who even saw a six point this year, and it certainly wasn't for lack of trying.

* edit * not entirely true, now that I think about it - one friend of mine came across two different six point's that had been killed and lost/unrecovered (either that, or someone left em because the antlers were too small) up in the area he and I both often hunt elk.

[Kody94]

Yeah, well, good for practically everyone you know. I don't personally know anyone who even saw a six point this year, and it certainly wasn't for lack of trying.

My comments were for perspective, not to rub anything in.

I am curious though...are you still convinced that the 20'ish percent success rate on 6 point bulls is attributed just those 10% of hunters (ie. not the 90% you are lumping yourself with) that have figured out the highly elusive secret of the 6 point bull?

Don't get me wrong either, I am not advocating for maintaining a 6 point season. I just don't like seeing either side of the argument being misrepresented.

[brotherjack]

I am curious though...are you still convinced that the 20'ish percent success rate on 6 point bulls is attributed just those 10% of hunters (ie. not the 90% you are lumping yourself with) that have figured out the highly elusive secret of the 6 point bull?

Well, I will often be the the first to decry anecdotal "evidence" being bandied about in a serious discussion, but without an audit of harvest data cards, it's all I've got to work with at the moment.

That said, of the hunters I am personally acquainted with (ie: not counting HBC storytelling), there are two who gets a 6 point elk almost evey year, and then there are the rest of us (a dozen or so) who don't even see a legal elk between us in a typical year (three or four of us in that group who each spend 20 to 40 mornings a year hunting, to boot).

So yeah, I am pretty convinced that there are some tricks or maybe it's just the places you go -- that most of us don't know. I'm also pretty convinced that if you ran hunter numbers from harvest data cards, that you'd find that, while not universal, that 20% success rate tended to be clustered in the same bunch of hunters.

[Kody94]

Well, I will often be the the first to decry anecdotal "evidence" being bandied about in a serious discussion, but without an audit of harvest data cards, it's all I've got to work with at the moment.

That said, of the hunters I am personally acquainted with (ie: not counting HBC storytelling), there are two who gets a 6 point elk almost evey year, and then there are the rest of us (a dozen or so) who don't even see a legal elk between us in a typical year (three or four of us in that group who each spend 20 to 40 mornings a year hunting, to boot).

So yeah, I am pretty convinced that there are some tricks or maybe it's just the places you go -- that most of us don't know. I'm also pretty convinced that if you ran hunter numbers from harvest data cards, that you'd find that, while not universal, that 20% success rate tended to be clustered in the same bunch of hunters.

Fair enough. I posted a poll on the topic to see if one or both of our experiences are outliers...at least relative to the experience of the board members here.

The math you use has to be off somewhat though....if 20% of elk hunters are successful, it can't just be 10% of the elk hunters that are shooting them....unless the bag limit was increased to 2 when I wasn't paying attention. ;)

[6616]

Not knowing off-hand who's math is correct I went and looked it up. This is from the 2006 official harvest report from Victoria, which is the newest one available. It is for all elk in Region 4 including the WK LEH harvest. The report is broken down by MU but not EK vrs WK.

Here's the bottom line: Note these numbers are for all elk, not just 6 pt bulls.
1653 elk were harvested, 1148 were bulls, 387 were cows, and 118 were juvenilies.

There were 8646 elk hunters who exerted 67,386 days of hunting effort.

Success rate = 19.12%

Each elk killed required 46.76 days of hunter effort

Now to break down this data and see if we can get some idea of the success rate for 6 pt bulls. Tara tells me the success rate for antlerless elk is about 40% Thus to shoot 505 antlerless and juvenile elk must have required approximately 1263 hunters.

That leaves about 7383 hunters who were chasing 6pt bulls. and harvested 1148 bulls. Thus the success rate for bull hunters was approximately 15.6% Of couse this is approximate only since it includes the WK LEH bull harvest. If anyone wants to break it out by MU and calculate the actual success rates for the EK alone, I will send you the spread sheet.

[Fisher-Dude]

47 days of hunting to kill an elk, and even that is watered down by gravy LEH stats. Gotta think the 6 point kill will take close to 60 days. I get about 10 days a year to hunt elk, so I should get one every 6 years or so. I shot my last 6 point in 2002 - I'm overdue.

I hunt deer locally about 40 - 50 days a year, so I can see why the 4E residents tend to favour the 6 point season, if they can put in a similar effort for elk in their back yard.

Tell a new hunter, or even a 60 year old guy, that it will take him 60 days to get an elk to feed his family, and he will sell his gun and buy new golf clubs. :|

[Moosenose]

If the biologists understand the situation (and I'm sure they do), and they wanted to change the season but succumbed to pressure from fish and game clubs, then why not give them some pressure from HuntingBC.ca?
There is power in numbers, and this forum represents a large cross-section of hunters from across the province. I wonder if it would be possible for this group to get together and come up with an improvement proposal? I doubt if it would ever be uninanimous with such diverse expectations, but even a strong majority, based on a vote or poll could help these biologists do what they already know has to be done. We would need someone with a good insight into elk populations, a good understanding of how the current 6 point season is affecting genetics, someone with good research capabilities, and someone fairly well connected. HHHHHmmmmmmmm, hey 6616, are you up to it?

[6616]

If the biologists understand the situation (and I'm sure they do), and they wanted to change the season but succumbed to pressure from fish and game clubs, then why not give them some pressure from HuntingBC.ca?
There is power in numbers, and this forum represents a large cross-section of hunters from across the province. I wonder if it would be possible for this group to get together and come up with an improvement proposal? I doubt if it would ever be uninanimous with such diverse expectations, but even a strong majority, based on a vote or poll could help these biologists do what they already know has to be done. We would need someone with a good insight into elk populations, a good understanding of how the current 6 point season is affecting genetics, someone with good research capabilities, and someone fairly well connected. HHHHHmmmmmmmm, hey 6616, are you up to it?

Sorry if I sound a little negative on this idea Moosenose even though I'm delighted that you would think I would be the right person to undertake this task, but, do you really think we could get anywhere near a decisive majority from this board? I've put proposals together many times with input from 10 East Kootenay Fish and Game Clubs and that's hard enough. When you have 10 clubs it seems you have at least 5 to 10 different ideas how things should be done, now you're talking about 3500 individual opinions...? Besides there are professional biologists on this board who would be 100 times more qualified then myself. I'm not flat out saying I wouldn't do it or wouldn't participate, but I'm sure you know what a daunting task this could be considering the size of our membership and considering the diversity of responses to the several pollls and threads we've had on this topic.

We'd probably end up doing reasearch to assemble data that F&W already has, and even then if and when we had all the data do we really have enough expertise to interpret it correctly and come up with a serious proposal?

Why don't we recruit a RPBio amongst our membership to simply ask Garth Mowat to identify for us what he thinks would be the best all round biologically sound strategy for elk management for Region 4, and then put our full support and cumulative persuasive efforts behind him to implement his proposal? We have many influential club, BCWF/UBBC/etc members on this board and we surely have enough members to influence the public web site feedback results, that is if we ever could see things somewhat in agreement with each other, which of course could represent the greatest challenge. We have some pretty diversified opinions, especially regarding the West Kootenay program.

Important points to remember are that the EK and WK management strategies have to be compatible with each other and a similar strategy in the Peace Region and potentially the Okanagan Region as well would be a huge asset.

[rocksteady]

I get about 10 days a year to hunt elk,


I hunt deer locally about 40 - 50 days a year, so I can see why the 4E residents tend to favour the 6 point season, if they can put in a similar effort for elk in their back yard.

:|

So are you saying you want the regs changed because you only hunt elk for 10 days and have the expectation to get an elk every time???

Whether its 6 point elk, 2 point moose, or the elusive 4 point muley, you have to put in thetime to be successful. If you only have 10 days to hunt elk, maybe you need to try an area that has less restrictions, even if its a further drive for you...

[weatherby_man]

LEH on 5 points?

[Fisher-Dude]

So are you saying you want the regs changed because you only hunt elk for 10 days and have the expectation to get an elk every time???

Whether its 6 point elk, 2 point moose, or the elusive 4 point muley, you have to put in thetime to be successful. If you only have 10 days to hunt elk, maybe you need to try an area that has less restrictions, even if its a further drive for you...

Nope. What I'm saying is that we can all see why some 4E residents like you tend to be vocal in keeping the status quo, even though it has been shown to hurt the elk herd over time. It's because 4Eers can hunt them all season long, just like I do with deer and immies here.

I'm not looking for a change based on my hunting patterns, I'm seeking a change for the health of the herd and to provide opportunities for all of BC's residents, and have stated that right from the get-go. My motivations are certainly NOT the same as yours Rocky. Hell, even if I could hunt with a native buddy and get a freezer full of elk meat without worrying about point restrictions, I'd still favour a change to accomplish herd health and opportunity for all. :lol:

Why the hell should we force people to drive 24 hours north when we have a herd closer to home that we can hunt, in fact, a herd that NEEDS to be hunted more to ensure its survival, just because you don't want us there? :p

[rocksteady]

Hell, even if I could hunt with a native buddy and get a freezer full of elk meat without worrying about point restrictions,

If you reread the posts, that was HIS elk....I got my own six -point later on.....Are you implying that I hunt with him just to get around regulations?????...Better have your facts straight before you go there..

[6616]

47 days of hunting to kill an elk, and even that is watered down by gravy LEH stats. Gotta think the 6 point kill will take close to 60 days. I get about 10 days a year to hunt elk, so I should get one every 6 years or so. I shot my last 6 point in 2002 - I'm overdue.


It would be interesting to break out the EK and WK stats into different spread sheets.

It would also be interesting (but impossible) to know the difference in success rates between locals and non-locals.

There has to be a lot of EK hunters who see elk almost every day on a year-around basis due to work, etc, and have an intimate knowledge of the country and the behaviour and movement patterns of elk herds, and would thus require significantly less then the average time to bag a six pointer.

It also follows that out-of-area hunters who do not have this significant advantage would take considerably more then the average # of hunter days to bag an elk.

These disperities will always exist no matter what area is being discussed and that's just reality.

[Fisher-Dude]

If you reread the posts, that was HIS elk....I got my own six -point later on.....Are you implying that I hunt with him just to get around regulations?????...Better have your facts straight before you go there..

I'm implying that you have a meal ticket. I know he shot the elk, and I'd never suggest otherwise. You know you got meat from it, yet few seemed willing to call your hypocracy on it. It didn't really matter whether you got your 6 point later on (congratulations, by the way), you were already set. You have a vested interest in keeping hunting pressure off elk under 6 points. It's obvious why.

[one-shot-wonder]

Why the hell should we force people to drive 24 hours north when we have a herd closer to home that we can hunt, in fact, a herd that NEEDS to be hunted more to ensure its survival, just because you don't want us there? :p

Here, here.....better open some of them elk up before the buzzards and coyotes over endulge!

[6616]

You hit the nail right on the head there FD......some peeps can be pretty Hypocritical if you ask me !!!!

Kenkell1, how do you feel about doing away with LEH for the West Kootenay bull hunt?

[GoatGuy]

I went for a drive this evening looking for some firewood. While out I saw 6 differnt herds of Elk, average 20 animals each. The biggest herd was over 50. A long story short every herd had at least 1 bull with them ALL WHERE 5 POINT BULLS. There is no way that these should all be 5 point herd bulls. I was able to glass the herds and had a good look at all the bulls. I hunted Pretty hard this year for Elk and only had one shot at a legal Bull and he was a guppy ( a basic 5x5 with on little point making a 6x5). I think that the 6 point only season needs to be changed to a 5 point or better to take the preassure off of the 6 points. When you see 5 points that would score over 300" those are mature bulls and they are never going to be 6 points. They almost changed the season here to 3 and better this year but some fish and game clubs rally hard against it. I think a 5 point season would accomplish the desired goal of increased harvest and at the same time take the pressure of of the mature 6 point bulls allowing better genetic bulls a chance to breed. What do you guys think?


Getting back to the question the reason why there are so many 5X5s is because that's all we're harvesting.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that over the course of time, your 'breeding' bulls will increasingly be 5x5s because nobody shoots, not on purpose that is. :redface:

Ask a biologist and he'll tell you the 6 pt regulation is the worst thing you can be doing for elk management especially where the population is near habitat carrying capacity.

[GoatGuy]

Fair enough. I posted a poll on the topic to see if one or both of our experiences are outliers...at least relative to the experience of the board members here.

The math you use has to be off somewhat though....if 20% of elk hunters are successful, it can't just be 10% of the elk hunters that are shooting them....unless the bag limit was increased to 2 when I wasn't paying attention. ;)

10% of the hunters consistently harvest wildlife. It's only a general rule. The other half of the harvest is for the guys who get 'lucky' every once in a while.

[boxhitch]

It would also be interesting (but impossible) to know the difference in success rates between locals and non-locals.
.I have seen stats like this. The info comes in from Hunter Survey cards, so not likely very accurate.

[GoatGuy]

It would be interesting to break out the EK and WK stats into different spread sheets.

It would also be interesting (but impossible) to know the difference in success rates between locals and non-locals.


Easy to do both - just takes time.

Across the region for harvest and effort stats the results would be considered relatively significant; certainly more significant than many if not most wildlife population estimates across the province. On the MU level you can't necessarily rely on the harvest data but regional trends are certainly a good indicator.

Data goes back to the early 80s.

Just need somebody to do it if that will drive any kind of epiphany or even just change.

[hunter1947]

My friend that did live in cranbrook had done years of steading on the elk in the EK.

If you remember back a few years ago when the EK elk population was at its low they got a Montana biologist up to the EK to give his advice on what we need to do to bring back the EK elk herds.

The one thing my buddy said to me that the biologist said to the elk management is that POINT RESTRICTIONS DON'T WORK.

[6616]

My friend that did live in cranbrook had done years of steading on the elk in the EK.

If you remember back a few years ago when the EK elk population was at its low they got a Montana biologist up to the EK to give his advice on what we need to do to bring back the EK elk herds.

The one thing my buddy said to me that the biologist said to the elk management is that POINT RESTRICTIONS DON'T WORK.

Yes, his name was Dr Ken Raedeke, PhD, of Seattle Washington.

He actually felt that bulls should be on LEH, but considering local resistance to this his final recommendations included the 6 pt bull season specifically to bring up the bull cow ratio.

His final report dated April 1998 was about 100 pages long but there is a 12 page executive summary. Unfortunatly neither is available on the web.

He also noted that the 6pt bull season would have little effect on recovery of the overall population abundance and to increase the elk population he recommended termination all antlerless seasons.

He also noted that it was not a concern for the bull season to overlap the rut which was an issue of significant controversy in the local area. Many people felt that the bulls should not be hunted during the rut.

Obviously there are many different ways to reach the same objective of reducing the harvest.

[rocksteady]

I'm implying that you have a meal ticket. I know he shot the elk, and I'd never suggest otherwise. You know you got meat from it, yet few seemed willing to call your hypocracy on it. It didn't really matter whether you got your 6 point later on (congratulations, by the way), you were already set. You have a vested interest in keeping hunting pressure off elk under 6 points. It's obvious why.

I am not even going to respond to this as you and I don't see eye to eye and it will probably never be resolved......You have your opinion of me and likewise I also have an opinion of you...

To reiterate though, in my previous posts I have agreed that slacking off the point restrictions in a conservative manner would be acceptable, I am just not in favour of big changes that could severely impact the elk population in the long term..