Shooting a Griz over a Moose Carcass VS Salmon Streams

[kgriz]

The old thread about shooting a griz over a dead moose that was just "found" in the bush and all the ethical bluster from this spring had me thinking as I drove past the Skeena........................................

According to all of the members who outwordly chastised the person for trying to find a griz near a dead moose he found, it should then be illegal to hunt for griz along a river during the salmon spawn....ridiculous...give your head a shake. Baiting with intent is baiting.........animals eating dead animals that were found or harvested legally should be just that.....before you jump on the moose situation think it through and realize that dead fish are the same and lots of hunting happens like this. If you shot the moose and intended to shoot a griz on the gut-pile than this seems more like baiting and I've seen lots of writing on the walls to suggest that this is common by some groups of hunters such as :

Shot Moose Sept. 1
Shot Griz Sept 3

Always moose first then griz hmmmmm8)

[BiG Boar]

If you are standing on a moose kill that you just shot and you have a grizz tag and one is coming right for you, do you shoot? What if the grizz is coming into camp? Got to imagine this is quite a plausible situation.

[Steeleco]

The baiting of all bears in BC has always been a contentious issue. I myself don't see the need to get a barrel and bait as is needed in other provinces. With that said, hunting bears over a gut pile, yours or one found, is no different than hunting bears over a well hid, but fully ripened blueberry patch?

Another issue the needs addressing in the current regulation?

[Jagermeister]

The old thread about shooting a griz over a dead moose that was just "found" in the bush and all the ethical bluster from this spring had me thinking as I drove past the Skeena........................................

According to all of the members who outwordly chastised the person for trying to find a griz near a dead moose he found, it should then be illegal to hunt for griz along a river during the salmon spawn....ridiculous...give your head a shake. Baiting with intent is baiting.........animals eating dead animals that were found or harvested legally should be just that.....before you jump on the moose situation think it through and realize that dead fish are the same and lots of hunting happens like this. If you shot the moose and intended to shoot a griz on the gut-pile than this seems more like baiting and I've seen lots of writing on the walls to suggest that this is common by some groups of hunters such as :

Shot Moose Sept. 1
Shot Griz Sept 3

Always moose first then griz hmmmmm8)
Good points, common sense does not always prevail on here.

[WoodOx]

Or another situation:

Legally baiting deer with apples during deer season.

Bear comes into your stand while your in a tree - do you pass as it could be concieved as he was being baited, or do you arrow him as he could also simply be walking by?

the intention was to bait, however it was to bait deer and a bear comes in...

This happened to me with both bear and 'yotes however none are dead as I dont know where the line is drawn with issues like this...

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Or another situation:

Legally baiting deer with apples during deer season.

Bear comes into your stand while your in a tree - do you pass as it could be concieved as he was being baited, or do you arrow him as he could also simply be walking by?

the intention was to bait, however it was to bait deer and a bear comes in...

This happened to me with both bear and 'yotes however none are dead as I dont know where the line is drawn with issues like this...

Shoot the yotes...let the bear walk.

SSS

[Krico]

Salmon stream, moose carcass, oat field, bucket of table scraps...they're all the same to the bear - food. I see no difference in hunting over one of them versus the other, apparently the MOE does.
I guess my question is "what makes bears so special???" We can bait for every other big game species. There certainly is no shortage of bears in BC, and are most often taken as an opporunistic harvest by hunters looking for something else.
I'm not sure what's worse - the regulation itself or the self righteous who chastise those operating in the "grey area."

[Orangethunder]

I think the crucial difference is a food source placed intentionally or naturally.

[boxhitch]

Looking at the Regs, it is unlawful to intentionally feed or attempt to feed dangerous wildlife including bears.
The idea being to not aclimatize bears or cats to things like campsites, bar b qs ?
This maybe in place for public protection, and maybe the whole bear baiting spun off from this.
We don't often realize the intent, so just follow the rules as they are written.
Dead salmon and blueberrys occuring in their natural state are not bait. Moving them to a convenient location may be grey.
A moose carcass could be contrived to be set up to allow the folowing harvest of a bear. Maybe maybe not, but a rule has to be set and followed.
So why dredge up the debate again ?

Oh, and the selfrighteuos are have opinions too.

[kgriz]

I "dredged" it up because lots of the ethics based stuff on here really ticks me off and its not until later that I realize that some very important points may have been missed. In this case, the person who started this thread was opennly chastised for looking for a griz around a dead moose he stumbled upon and if I remember right lots of "opinions" about it being illegal were given in a "factual" manner. Once it occurred to me that the salmon thing was no different I thought I'd throw it out there again to see if maybe people can change their opinions based on new ideas or if they will remain stubborn forever. I admit I have some strong opinions and never forget an arguement or grudge and I'll be the first to yell them out loud but I always admit when I'm wrong.

[trigger]

kgriz you are absoluley right.

[kgriz]

Thanks........Once in a while I have a coherent thought

[6 K]

I for one don't think hunting a stream is the same as baiting.
Streams are long and have many places that hold fish. You have to find the bears.(they don't often come to you) Then find the one your after and not get winded or heard while getting this done. This is not as easly acompleshed as sitting in one location waiting for something to come to you. Baiting Imho is not fair chase. Fresh, overpowering slop added everyday. Bears give in to temptation over caution in this circumstance. Streams are their natural feeding ground and although they return year after year, they still use their sences and fear.
Takeing a grizz over a kill, well I say if you knew it was there then that is baiting, if you honnestly discovered it later, well I guess that is just being in the right place at the right time, also known as getting lucky.:smile:
My 2c
Please forgive my spelling

[boxhitch]

lots of the ethics based stuff on here really ticks me off
and that will never change


if I remember right lots of "opinions" about it being illegal were given in a "factual" manner.
I missed something. Were they opinions or facts ?


Once it occurred to me that the salmon thing was no different
Its kind of obvious how the dead salmon came to be, but not so easy to determine on the moose. Not easy for the hunter, even more difficult for COs and enforcement.

The reason I am even commenting is that this issue effects me personally in how I do things professionally. Debate on!

[boxhitch]

The whole intent of most of the Regulations and the Wildlife Act is to have rules to ensue we hunters do things in what is a so-called ethical manner,
But more importantly, so that rules can be enforced somehow. Enforcement issues cause rise to most changes.

[kgriz]

The only way to enforce whether or not somebody intentionally did an act is by:
1. seeing them do it
2. admission by offender outright
3. admission by offender after the fact through "interviewing tactics"

The real question here is why bother to have to go through this when now baiting is OK for most other species? I would say that its largely due to the politics of bear-hunting itself.

[Gateholio]

Why was baiting black bears made illegal in BC, anyway? You can do it in Alaska and Alberta....
:?:

On another forum I suggested that the prevailing ethics of the day prevented it, but was told that we have no game laws that pertain to ethics, only safety and conservation...Apparently baited black bears could become a hazard to humans??

I disagree, of course, since we have no conservation issues with black bear populations, and bait for other animals might attract bears.

[boxhitch]

bait for other animals might attract bears.maybe, but never certain.

only safety and conservation...Apparently baited black bears could become a hazard to humans??
Like the other Dangerous animals ? Good chance.

[Vansmasher]

The real question here is why bother to have to go through this when now baiting is OK for most other species? I would say that its largely due to the politics of bear-hunting itself.
BINGO!!! There are more tree huggers in BC than in Alberta and Alaska combined. Not exactly sure where I was going with that..... its pretty early.

Shoot straight, shoot often.

[sealevel]

Likely is an old law to protect the bears.

In the 50s--60s the bear pop. was very low. bears were considerd vermon and were shot on site. The trafficing of bear parts was a pretty big thing then . Chinese resterants in vernon paid a good buck for bears.

[6616]

I have been told by MOE personnal that the reason for the baiting ban in BC for bears is because there's almost 100% overlap between grizzlies and black bear habitats and ranges in BC, and it is a conservation concern for grizzly bears that spawned that regulation. Once bait is placed you have no control over whether a grizz or a blackie comes in.

They don't want grizzlies baited for two reasons, they want to maintain a low harvest rate, and the potential for habituation. If the range overlap did not occur there would probably be not a concern and baiting for black bears would probably be legal.

I'm not trying to support or justify the regulation, just saying what I've been told is the reason.

[boxhitch]

it is a conservation concern for grizzly bears that spawned that regulation. Once bait is placed you have no control over whether a grizz or a blackie comes in.

They don't want grizzlies baited for two reasons, they want to maintain a low harvest rate, and the potential for habituation.
I can see their point was probably valid back in the day of GOS grizzly ( remember the good days ?) But now with LEH only, which I doubt will ever change, the LEH permit numbrs issued control the harvest, and limiting techniques further handicaps the hunter.
But in this day, I can not see the baiting rules being changed either.

[huntwriter]

If you are standing on a moose kill that you just shot and you have a grizz tag and one is coming right for you, do you shoot? What if the grizz is coming into camp? Got to imagine this is quite a plausible situation.

I have to agree with you here. If I ever would encounter a griz coming toward me while I am busy field dressing a game animal, the last thing I would do is give up MY kill to the bear, tag or no tag. The same would be true if a griz (as has happened to friends) visits a camp regularly. My advice was to kill the sucker next time he visits the camp again and slashes ATV and truck tires.

I really have no clue where that ever entered our minds that we have to bow down and out to a griz or any other bear for that matter. Fact is that each time a bear has a rewarding experience with hunters he will do it more and more and eventually will attack people without warning to gain access to what he desires. In animal behavior lingo that is called “least resistance pattern”.

[kgriz]

Pretty much agree with you huntwriter....as usual

[boxhitch]

If I ever would encounter a griz coming toward me while I am busy field dressing a game animal, the last thing I would do is give up MY kill to the bear, tag or no tag.
No tag, and you would be breaking the law.
Though shooting a G Bear to protect life and limb is accepted, and posssibly accepted to protect private property.
So then the ???. when does game become a personal possession ?

At an outfitter camp they cannot kill a bear to protect meat on a pole or in a cache.

[kgriz]

I understand the laws of it, just not the reasons anymore with it being LEH. Not to mention most of the time a small patch of green amongst a sea of snow is all you need anyways........how this is practically different beats me. As far as protecting personal stuff, I find it funny that nobody would begrudge a farmer for protecting a couple hundred dollars of fence or even a $ 1000 beef but if a hunter tries to protect a $2500 stone sheep, different for some reason in the eyes of most:roll: ( the $2500 I came up with was only the value at the annual wildlife auction in PG)

[mmcleodk]

I think the main concern with baiting for bears is it throws off their hibernation cycle.

Maybe if the regs were changed to only allow baiting during the spring and early fall and just not in the later fall when they're getting ready to hibernate?

[kgriz]

I believe that most of the decisions made (especially) around grizzly bears are politically driven; the big speach we get about our wildlife primarily being managed by science is often a farce with enough investigation......I've got some prime Griz examples of this around my home but it will have to wait .......I've got to get to work.:-P

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Interestingly.............I know of one retired CO that does not think it is illegal to shoot a g-bear off a gutpile.:???:


SSS

[Gateholio]

I tend to think it's political, too...I can put out carrion to bait a wolf, but not a black bear.

What is the difference? A bear may come into the bait just as easy (or easier) than a wolf!:wink:

So a bear may get habituated, a grizzly may come in, etc.:confused:

[huntwriter]

... when does game become a personal possession ?

I paid for the tag and hunting license and with that I paid for the animal I shot. The very moment I tag the animal it becomes my paid for possession. I am aware that this is not a popular view in these politically correct days but nonetheless it is a legal fact.

A bear that comes into my camp or to my kill comes with the sole intent to claim what he can for himself. To this end he WILL kill to get what he wants. Therefore the bear is a threat to me if I insist, quite rightly so, on not giving up what’s legally mien.

BC has the highest population on both grizzly(*) and black bears(**) in all of North America. It has reached a point were bears are becoming over populated in many areas, a nuisance, to people and wildlife. The reasonable thing to do would be to issue more generous bear licenses to cull the population down drastically. But for as long as teddy-bear huggers have more influence in the political arena then commonsense wildlife conservation efforts we can wait for that to happen until the day pigs can fly.;-)

(*) The population is estimated at 10,000 to 13,000 in 2004. Since then the grizzly bear population has grown to much higher numbers and can now be found in areas where they were not conmen, such as the Vancouver Island and the southern parts of the province.

(**) The black bear population is at over 160,000 across the province and it is feared by serious biologists that the population has outgrown its natural carrying capacity. An indication for this is the growing black bear sightings in suburban areas and even town centers all along the lower and middle part of the province where black bears have become a serious safety concern for people.

[huntwriter]

I think the main concern with baiting for bears is it throws off their hibernation cycle.

Maybe if the regs were changed to only allow baiting during the spring and early fall and just not in the later fall when they're getting ready to hibernate?
Looking at reports from U.S. States and Canadian provinces were bear baiting is legal it seems to have no adverse affect on the bears hibernation cycle. Temperature and the shortening of daylight hours trigger the hibernation not the availability or lack of food sources. In Tennessee and other southern American states where the winters are mild black bears do not hibernate even so the daylight hours are shorter.

Like the majority here I too agree that the bait ban for bears is entirely a political issue and not a wildlife conservation issue.

As an interesting side note, statistics show that where baiting bears is legal the numbers of bears taken are almost equal with the number of bears taken where baiting is not legal. That much for the "shooting fish in a barrel" theory . However, the numbers of lost and wounded bears due to poor shot placement are much higher where baiting is not legal. Understandably so, bait typically is placed between 15 yards to 25 yards away from the stand for bowhunters and between 50 yards to 100 yards for firearm hunters. Hunting a bear over bait places a relaxed animal in the perfect position (distance) for a clean ethical kill, giving the hunter time to select the best shot placement and aim properly.

[Gateholio]

Huntwriter, where are those quotes from?
thx

[Steeleco]

(*) The population is estimated at 10,000 to 13,000 in 2004. Since then the grizzly bear population has grown to much higher numbers and can now be found in areas where they were not conmen, such as the Vancouver Island and the southern parts of the province.

(**) The black bear population is at over 160,000 across the province and it is feared by serious biologists that the population has outgrown its natural carrying capacity. An indication for this is the growing black bear sightings in suburban areas and even town centers all along the lower and middle part of the province where black bears have become a serious safety concern for people.

I know these figures are in these publications. They free, I got both of them some years back. Good reads for sure.

http://www.bearsinbc.com/

[huntwriter]

Huntwriter, where are those quotes from?
thx

What quotes? The ones about the bear population numbers? They are mien. I do a lot of research when I write an article. In this case I research bear population numbers from all the readily available government resources (to numerous to list them all here) in North America. I might also talk to a few bear and wildlife biologists. Then I study bear distribution maps (also readily available in most cases, others don’t know or need a bit prodding to part with knowledge). And finally I research government and newspaper records of bear/human conflicts over the span of ten years (in this case) and human population growth and suburban development expansion. then I mix everything in a bowl and add a good messure of commensense to it.

It's a bit like cooking, first you find all the ingredients, then add a bit of personality and there is your decicious meal.;)


It’s a lot of work but also fun and above all educational for myself and hopefully for others too.