7A Moose Calf Season

[Mooseman]

As you can imagine, this is one of the most disagreed on subjects regarding moose management in 7A. Hunters and guides offer an equal difference in opinion on the issue. How do you feel?

Here are some con's:

Mortality is naturally high in this age group
Prevents them from growing up to become big bulls, cows or spike-fork's
Has a high risk to alter the overall population down the road thus reducing opportunityHere some pro's:

Very good meat
Fairly easy to get for the less physical hunter
Offers lots of opportunity for moose hunting success

[6616]

Here are some con's:

Mortality is naturally high in this age group
Prevents them from growing up to become big bulls, cows or spike-fork's
Has a high risk to alter the overall population down the road thus reducing opportunity

IMHO I don't believe your cons are completely accurate. Due to the natural high mortality rate of calves, their harvest is largely compensatory (merely replaces winter mortality) and should not effect the population dynamics too much. The big thing is that the recruitment rate has to be carefully monitored, if you have 25 calves per 100 cows or more being recruited as yearlings each spring I don't think shooting some calves is a big issue.

Don't forget 60% of them end up as wolf food or winter-kill anyway. The same debate holds true for the spike/fork harvest and the bios feel it is sustainable because they too have a high natural mortaility rate. If forage availability is the factor that generally establishes winter survival rates, reducing the herd size in the fall probably increases the survival chances for the rest of the population. Anyway this is what the sustainability of these hunts are based on.

[Sitkaspruce]

Yep, I agree with 6616. At first, when I moved up there, I could not stand the calf hunt. Then I got a chance to talk to Val Giest, and he, IMO, is one of the best, if not the best, ungulate Bio out there today.

He told me that if he had his way, he would have nothing but a calf season, and all bulls on LEH, for elk and moose, everywhere. He talks about calf mortality being high anyways, so harvest a certain % will have a lasting effect on the general pop. He explains it, and I doing in in a nut shell, that if you remove a certain % of calves, then the remaining ones have a better chance of surviving due to less comp for winter food, they are more spread out, so less chance of wolves finding them, less chance of disease, ticks and anything else that might effect a herd of moose, the cows who do not have a calf (lost it or otherwise) are in better health through the winter as less comp for food and not having to worry about the calf when wolves are around, less stress, yes stress, on the cow and there were other reasons. He stated that what is going on in 7A is actually working and there is a healthy population of mixed age class bulls and cows spread out across the area. A couple of years layer he wrote a essay in The Bugle about harvesting calf elk and why we need it.

Granted, a hard winter and/or ticks/or predators also play into the dynamics of populations, so we need to set seasons based on sound info and no political input.

He reminded us that the main reason, and to him the only reason to hunt, is for the meat, and there is nothing better than calf moose to fill your freezer.

I cannot remember when that copy of The Bugle came out, but I would guess 10 y or so.

If you Googled this info, you would probably find it or another writen by him. He is a most fasinating man and is very layed back in his approach, but you can tell he is confident in his knowledge and knows what he is talking about.

Cheers

SS

[CanuckShooter]

Competition for food?? For moose?? That has to be one of the most dumb azz things I have ever heard !!~!! I own 160 acres of moose habitat and I can tell you it would take an enormous number of moose to push it to the point where they would have to compete for grub!! And I live right in the heart of MU 7A.

More spread out...wolves have less chance of finding them?? Another whoozer !! Wolves can easily travel over 20 miles in a day...and can smell food over amazing distances.....good gawd man...what a laugh!!

Less stress after loss of a calf...now that one I can buy...

What has been done in 7A isn't working, in my humble opinion. WE have had moose hunting under LEH here for over 30 years, AND huge reductions in the numbers of hunters...and still they cannot see fit to loosen the regulations. THAT is the truest measure of the BS they are telling you when they say it's working !! I call BS on that one. Unless you want to perhaps measure the number of permits being allocated to guide outfitters?? Maybe that went up, eh?

[ianwuzhere]

I found this year to be very tough for moose. i put a lot of time in and seen many moose just wasnt able to see the right one and did not fill my leh bull.
I dont think calf season is a good idea-maybe get rid of it and make something like a 3 point or smaller bull or possibly a shorter season with more antler options?
Im not sold on the 60% calf mortality either, as there are far too many factors.
I have seen more wolves this year then ever before and think it would be a good idea to have a no closed season/ no bag limit on wolves tho...

[boxhitch]

I have seen more wolves this year then ever before and think it would be a good idea to have a no closed season/ no bag limit on wolves tho...There is a closed season ? there is a bag limit? ooopppsss.

[boxhitch]

IIRC , Willow River /Bowron lakes area has had a calf season fora couple of decades. This during a period when that area was Canadas largest clear-cut, visible from space, Through to now with 20 some years of new vegetation. That tells me the food supply there has gone through some drastic changes, especially when they were Chemical-bombing to kill off the deciduous re-growth. And there are still moose there.
The 'lack of winter food' point is lost on me.

[CJ-Jim]

Some of you guy,s should take a trip up north in the winter - I,ve been on the north side of the Fraser and the moose are all over the road,s feeding and starving why = because the foresty in their Wisdom have used Herbicide on the clear cuts and there is NO winter feed for the moose .
I,m for stopping the use of Herbicide,s - then lets see what the death rate of calf,s really is !!
When you concentrate the Moose population into a small area It,s NO wonder the Wolfs have a field day
BEST CJ-Jim

[Sitkaspruce]

Competition for food?? For moose?? That has to be one of the most dumb azz things I have ever heard !!~!! I own 160 acres of moose habitat and I can tell you it would take an enormous number of moose to push it to the point where they would have to compete for grub!! And I live right in the heart of MU 7A.

And YOUR 160 ac is the typical moose habitat that covers all of 7A??? You probably live in the ag zone around PG, which has more of the atypical moose country than what we are talking about. If I can find the video we took of over 60 moose in an area that is less than 5 km long, all competeing for some valuable willow and a few other food sourse, due to deep snow and a a more typical river valley, I would think that the suggestion of what he mentions has more true merrit. Yes the ag zone has more food, and probably gets hit the hardest with hunter #s and harvest rate, hence the harvest of calves is probably higher than more out of reach places, IE 7-38, which buy the way is where we have seen lots of moose and seen some good winter kill from deep snow and lack of food. Moose will eat themselves out of house and home and slowly die. I have seen first hand of this in the spring after a heavy snowfall and tough winter. The last for me was 2006/07, lost count on the # of dead, mostly whole, moose along the Omineca and Fall and Diver lake, and no, the ticks were not bad in that area. Willow was shreaded, there was nothing above 2-3' above ground and even that stuff is not very pallitable and has poor nutrition. And I also found a few dead wolves mixed in with the moose. Starved??? Not sure as they were all pulled apart and scattered, probably by there family members. The bears ate them selves sick in that area that spring.

More spread out...wolves have less chance of finding them?? Another whoozer !! Wolves can easily travel over 20 miles in a day...and can smell food over amazing distances.....good gawd man...what a laugh!!

Again, when they are concentrated in the deep of winter, wolves do not need the energy to find prey, but when the moose are more spread out, then more energy is needed to search and look for food. And once again, the ag zone allows more freedom for preds to roam, but in all my time studing wolves, hunting them and observing them, I have never seen a pack move more than 3-5 miles in a day in the winter. Unless snow conditions are pristine, wolves just do not run much, once they find where winter has pushed prey into an area, they wait for the prey to move to them. Saves valuable energy needed to run the prey down. They set up ambush points, usually around lakes and ponds, where their prey as little chance to escape. Have watched collered wolves do this a few times. Maybe wolves can travel 20 miles in a day in summer, or in the ag zone around PG or Vanderhoof, but not in winter, at least not in the Omineca, Takla, Mitchell and other mountain ranges.

Less stress after loss of a calf...now that one I can buy...

What has been done in 7A isn't working, in my humble opinion. WE have had moose hunting under LEH here for over 30 years, AND huge reductions in the numbers of hunters...and still they cannot see fit to loosen the regulations. THAT is the truest measure of the BS they are telling you when they say it's working !! I call BS on that one. Unless you want to perhaps measure the number of permits being allocated to guide outfitters?? Maybe that went up, eh?

I find this amuseing because if you listen to all the reports that I read on here, and the info I have gathered from friends in FSJ, moose #s are down or wolves are up or any number of other reasons that hunters never got anything, but everyone agrees that there is way to many hunters conentrated in a small area hunting a moose. I could not imagine a GOS in the ag zones around PG, Vanderhoof and Mcbride. maybe the outlying areas that do not get the pressure might be able to take it, but with increase access, huge cutblocks and large #'s of hunters all concentrating in a small area, my feeling is it would be a slaughter. Hell in Fort St. James, we once counted ~500 hunters within a 30 mile radius of the Fort during calf season. And yes calf season is a GOS, so I could not imagine what it would be like if we had a GOS for bulls during the rut!!! And then where would we be, back to square one again, listening to the whining and bitching from the arm chair biologists.

Oh and for your info, the moose allocation for the area I guide in went down two, from 16-14/year, and this includes two cow/calf tags.

I am not going to argue over something we have differences of opinion on, but I do trust one of the best Bio's in NA and I believe what he says has merrit. If you don't, give him a ring, he lives in Port Alberni and I am sure he would love to here your ideas and why YOU think HIS are BS.

Cheers

SS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The long term harvest numbers say that 7A had the longest running sustainable, highest harvests in the province.

I'd post the study here but it way to big.
If anyone wants a copy just PM me with your email addy.

SSS

[oldtimer]

Well we had a shared cow draw in 7A and when I dropped the cow the calf stood up and we took it as well. Makes perfect sense to me. There are a ton of moose up here and as long as the rules are what they are we will continue to hunt within them. Would I go out specifically for a calf, probably not but only because of the numbers of hunters up here at that time of year. But with a cow draw--- you bet. Mike

[Browningmirage]

Competition for food?? For moose?? That has to be one of the most dumb azz things I have ever heard !!~!! I own 160 acres of moose habitat and I can tell you it would take an enormous number of moose to push it to the point where they would have to compete for grub!! And I live right in the heart of MU 7A.

More spread out...wolves have less chance of finding them?? Another whoozer !! Wolves can easily travel over 20 miles in a day...and can smell food over amazing distances.....good gawd man...what a laugh!!

Less stress after loss of a calf...now that one I can buy...

What has been done in 7A isn't working, in my humble opinion. WE have had moose hunting under LEH here for over 30 years, AND huge reductions in the numbers of hunters...and still they cannot see fit to loosen the regulations. THAT is the truest measure of the BS they are telling you when they say it's working !! I call BS on that one. Unless you want to perhaps measure the number of permits being allocated to guide outfitters?? Maybe that went up, eh?


You must be a biologist...why im betting you did your undergrad...then your grad, then your PHD, just so you can criticize the regional bio.

All the facts that you cite (abundance of food, predators covering massive areas, etc.) are only matters of your opinion...im guessing you have strategically surveyed the entirety of 7A and determined that nowhere in it, is food a limiting factor, and have radio colared wolves to see that they can run 20 miles in a day through snow...food is almost always a limiting factor, and predators do not like to waste energy "running 20 miles", when there is no reason to.

But it was good to hear from you...a guy who has all the facts...and obviously knows better than the biologist

[CJ-Jim]

I agree that 7A has the the longest running sustainable harvest in B.C. , what what would happen if the Moose population was increased ??
Lets stop the use of herbicides and increase the amount of over-winter feed !!
Hunter numbers are down for 135K to 85 K , yet the individual success rate is still the same , how come ??
And has anyone thought how fish and game control,s the Number of Hunters in a given MU using the LEH system ? COME-ON !! 800 DOE TAGS for 5-14 - when if you don,t permission to access private land you will not be successful !!
ALL I,M SAYING ARE WE AS HUNTERS GETTING GOOD VALUE FOR OUR TAX AND LICENCE DOLLARS BEING SPENT BY FISH AND GAME ??
i KNOW THIS MAYBE TAKING AWAY FROM THE ORIGINAL QUESTION BUT I BELIEVE THAT THES ARE ALL ISSUES THAT AFFECT THE CALF SEASON QUESTION .
BEST CJ-Jim

[jwe63]

I'm new to moosin. Is there a calf season in 7a or other MU's as well? Is it only a high winter kill that allows a calf season? ie there isn't a calf season in the Okanagan

[PGK]

Guess what. There's a ton of moose in 7A. And with the continual increase in clearcutting, there will be EVEN MORE MOOSE in the years to come.

Hell, right now in 16 and 23 they're trying to knock back the moose numbers so that the predator numbers go down to give the 'bou some breathing room. The moose pops are as high as they've ever been, and so are the preds, and they're only going to keep going up as all this beetle kill timber gets cut out.

I love the calf season, without it, I wouldn't know what weekends to avoid :lol: If you hate the calf season, you are either misinformed, or have an agenda to push.

[ThisIsLiving]

Well we had a shared cow draw in 7A and when I dropped the cow the calf stood up and we took it as well. Makes perfect sense to me. There are a ton of moose up here and as long as the rules are what they are we will continue to hunt within them. Would I go out specifically for a calf, probably not but only because of the numbers of hunters up here at that time of year. But with a cow draw--- you bet. Mike


I could'nt agree with you more... i myself or my dad has had a cow draw in 7a on a couple occasions not seeing the calf untill it stood up then we took it as well.... it makes perfect sense with the way they have the calf season and cow draws set up there is most definetly no shortage of moose in 7a pretty much no matter what MU your in...... Keep the calf season going

[ianwuzhere]

You must be a biologist...why im betting you did your undergrad...then your grad, then your PHD, just so you can criticize the regional bio.

All the facts that you cite (abundance of food, predators covering massive areas, etc.) are only matters of your opinion...im guessing you have strategically surveyed the entirety of 7A and determined that nowhere in it, is food a limiting factor, and have radio colared wolves to see that they can run 20 miles in a day through snow...food is almost always a limiting factor, and predators do not like to waste energy "running 20 miles", when there is no reason to.

But it was good to hear from you...a guy who has all the facts...and obviously knows better than the biologist

Im gonna have to agree with CS on the 20 miles a day through snow. I think having to radio colar wolves to find out info like that would be a waste of time as it can easily be done, especially when conditions are right and the wolves can run on top of the snow.


Your right as food is a limiting factor, i believe the population is high of moose and think we should aim to keep it high with knowledge from both biologists and veteran hunters...

[6616]

One of the most famous and highly respected biologists that specialized specifically in moose management was the late Anthony Bubenick from Ontario. He claimed that moose hunting should be managed to harvest animals from all age and sex classes in order to maintain functional social structures within a moose population unit. This would include harvest of calves, cows and yearlings as well as limited harvest of mature bulls. The easiest component of the population to over-harvest is mature bulls. Due to the breeding stratgey of moose high bull to cow ratios of at least 30 bulls per 100 cows are required.

I believe Ken Child tried to build a moose management regime in 7a that closely followed Anthony Bubenick's recommendations, and currently the management of moose in Region 7a is acclaimed as being the best in the Pacific-Northwest.

In March 2008 Ecodomain consulting released a report entitled "Towards an Inproved Moose Management Strategy for BC". This is a very good read and maybe essential reading for anyone who wants to change the management system in 7a.

I can send a copy by e-mail,,, if anyone wants it PM me.
Is this the same report you offered to send Brent (SSS)?

Is a moose GOS sustainable in 7a? I would guess it probably is, don't forget it doesn't have to be two or three months long, it could be for only a week or two and only in the more remote areas, it doesn't have to include the ag-areas around PG and in the Robson Valley, and it doesn't have to include mature males if that's a concern. A GOS can be as restrictive as required to meet conservation concerns.

[PGK]

One of the most famous and highly respected biologists that specialized specifically in moose management was the late Anthony Bubenick from Ontario. He claimed that moose hunting should be managed to harvest animals from all age and sex classes in order to maintain functional social structures within a moose population unit. This would include harvest of calves, cows and yearlings as well as limited harvest of mature bulls. The easiest component of the population to over-harvest is mature bulls. Due to the breeding stratgey of moose high bull to cow ratios of at least 30 bulls per 100 cows are required.

I believe Ken Child tried to build a moose management regime in 7a that closely followed Anthony Bubenick's recommendations, and currently the management of moose in Region 7a is acclaimed as being the best in the Pacific-Northwest.

In March 2008 Ecodomain consulting released a report entitled "Towards an Inproved Moose Management Strategy for BC". This is a very good read and maybe essential reading for anyone who wants to change the management system in 7a.

I can send a copy by e-mail,,, if anyone wants it PM me.
Is this the same report you offered to send Brent (SSS)?

Is a moose GOS sustainable in 7a? I would guess it probably is, don't forget it doesn't have to be two or three months long, it could be for only a week or two and only in the more remote areas, it doesn't have to include the ag-areas around PG and in the Robson Valley, and it doesn't have to include mature males if that's a concern. A GOS can be as restrictive as required to meet conservation concerns.

I don't really believe it is, considering the pressure it would get. EVERYONE that hunts between Chet and Pink Mtn Aug 15 would just save their gas and use PG as camp. It would be a ridiculous slaughter. The immediate moose hunting area centered around PG is not large enough to sustain a bull GOS. It would be destruction out there. Absolute murder for the first two years, then everyone would be wondering where the hell all the moose went. Doug Heard is a smart guy, and he's building from the solid foundation Ken Child built for him, let him do his job.

[6616]

I don't really believe it is, considering the pressure it would get. EVERYONE that hunts between Chet and Pink Mtn Aug 15 would just save their gas and use PG as camp. It would be a ridiculous slaughter. The immediate moose hunting area centered around PG is not large enough to sustain a bull GOS. It would be destruction out there. Absolute murder for the first two years, then everyone would be wondering where the hell all the moose went. Doug Heard is a smart guy, and he's building from the solid foundation Ken Child built for him, let him do his job.

I was actually thinking the same Tony, that's why l suggested the immediate and accessible areas around PG, possibly Vanderhoof, and the Robson Valley would not necessarily be included in a GOS, just the remote areas.

At any rate I'm not heavily leaning towards or pushing for a GOS. You're absolutely right about Ken and Doug, the 7a moose management stratgey is highly regarded and Doug certainly knows what's sustainable and what isn't.

[Sitkaspruce]

One of the most famous and highly respected biologists that specialized specifically in moose management was the late Anthony Bubenick from Ontario. He claimed that moose hunting should be managed to harvest animals from all age and sex classes in order to maintain functional social structures within a moose population unit. This would include harvest of calves, cows and yearlings as well as limited harvest of mature bulls. The easiest component of the population to over-harvest is mature bulls. Due to the breeding stratgey of moose high bull to cow ratios of at least 30 bulls per 100 cows are required.

I believe Ken Child tried to build a moose management regime in 7a that closely followed Anthony Bubenick's recommendations, and currently the management of moose in Region 7a is acclaimed as being the best in the Pacific-Northwest.

In March 2008 Ecodomain consulting released a report entitled "Towards an Inproved Moose Management Strategy for BC". This is a very good read and maybe essential reading for anyone who wants to change the management system in 7a.

I can send a copy by e-mail,,, if anyone wants it PM me.
Is this the same report you offered to send Brent (SSS)?

I would like a copy of this 6616. I will PM you with an addy. Sounds like an interesting read.

Is a moose GOS sustainable in 7a? I would guess it probably is, don't forget it doesn't have to be two or three months long, it could be for only a week or two and only in the more remote areas, it doesn't have to include the ag-areas around PG and in the Robson Valley, and it doesn't have to include mature males if that's a concern. A GOS can be as restrictive as required to meet conservation concerns.

We already have a GOS, it is for cows and spike/two points. If it did go to a GOS and it was only for a couple of weeks, and not in the rut, I believe you would hear the same whinning and bitching we hear now. I think all the arm chair Bio's would cry fowl!!!! Maybe a 6 day season like in region 6, during the same time. If nothing else it would reduce the # of hunters in that gong show:shock::tongue:. We have to remember that if we went to a GOS, the guys who put in for the region 3 and 5 draws will be up in 7a in a second and then use their draw later. I just cannot imagine all the pressure of ~ 75% of the provinces moose hunters in one area. Just look at the region 6 GOS and how that has turned into a gong show hunt. Too many hunters in an area will also be asking for trouble down the road. I actually think there is a post about it, hunters and locals.

Cheers

SS

[lip_ripper00]

[quote=PGK;355512]
Hell, right now in 16 and 23 they're trying to knock back the moose numbers so that the predator numbers go down to give the 'bou some breathing room. Great point, but is this the 'bou's natural range?

[Mooseman]

I have never been a follower and like to question things when they don't make sense or if I disagree. Therefore I don't blindly nod my head when someone says something is ok. I like and respect Glen and Doug but I challenge them every time when I see a problem. Always with respect and open to learn!!!

My hopes are clear. I would like a higher population of moose in BC and fear that the calf season is not helping. A higher population would create more opportunity, quality experiences, success and hunter recruitment and retention.

Ray Demarchi's paper talks about how to increase license sales (revenue) without increasing the moose population. Meaning, putting more hunters in to the bush looking for the same moose you are looking for.
Nowhere does it mention or suggest ways to better your experience hunting moose in BC. I don't know why you hunt, but I can buy meat cheaper at a farmer thus I hunt for the experience and the quality time I spend with my friends and kids in a beautiful setting.

I would suggest it might be a mistake to take Reg. 7A's model "as is" and apply it province wide.

[CanuckShooter]

I am not going to argue over something we have differences of opinion on, but I do trust one of the best Bio's in NA and I believe what he says has merrit. If you don't, give him a ring, he lives in Port Alberni and I am sure he would love to here your ideas and why YOU think HIS are BS.

Cheers

SS

If we have any moose starving for lack of food within a 100 miles of our place I'd eat his shorts....there are and have been instances where accessing food has been a problem. ie. the deep and heavy snows of a couple of years ago. But in general terms, in my humble uneducated mind, competition for forage is a non issue. Unfortunately I tend to call BS when I think it's being spewed and anyone that tells me that the moose management strategy in 7A is working is just plain spewing it. IMO We have had LEH here for over 30 years, and there are no more moose here now than there were 30 years ago...and during that 30 years hunter participation has plummeted. If the current system was working as they are telling you the moose population should be expanding expotentially. It isn't, so what is happening? Extremely high mortality rates on rail lines, more predation [bears/wolves], and possibly expanded migration.

[CanuckShooter]

You must be a biologist...why im betting you did your undergrad...then your grad, then your PHD, just so you can criticize the regional bio.

All the facts that you cite (abundance of food, predators covering massive areas, etc.) are only matters of your opinion...im guessing you have strategically surveyed the entirety of 7A and determined that nowhere in it, is food a limiting factor, and have radio colared wolves to see that they can run 20 miles in a day through snow...food is almost always a limiting factor, and predators do not like to waste energy "running 20 miles", when there is no reason to.

But it was good to hear from you...a guy who has all the facts...and obviously knows better than the biologist

Your assuming that because you went to university and got a graduation paper that you know what your talking about. It wasn't that long ago that long distance runners were reporting to their doctors that they were experiencing withdrawal symptoms when they stopped running....of course those doctors that had years of education thought they were nuts...now they know that when those people stop running they do experience withdrawal symptoms. So much for relying completely on education.

Sometimes what you hear from the educated one is the 'company line', blindly accepted as fact.

I have never seen moose starving in 7A because there were too many moose per acre competing for food. I have followed wolf tracks for miles and miles and miles on snowmobile tracks and/or roads. I don't see anymore moose while hunting now than I did 30 years ago...so I have an opinion....PHD or not.

When what you see doens't jive with what your told...what's wrong with questioning it??

[Vansmasher]

IMO the calf season in 7A should not exist. Its all about the money it generates, guaranteed there are many minivan hunters that would not even buy a moose tag and hunt them if the season was gone. Competition for moose food?? No freakin' way, the government is the puppet master and the biologists are one of their puppets.... by stating a lack of food is a partial reason for justifying the season is complete and utter BS. There is far less herbicide application treatments by forest licencees these days.
I've been in the central interior for 15 years and in my opinion the moose population has definitely declined somewhat.
Ditch the calf season and put a bounty on wolves and lets see how the population does.
For the most part I'm thinking locals to 7A are going to be opposed to the season and those that travel here to hunt are going to be for it..... ??

[willyqbc]

I have mixed opinions on this issue so I'll throw out a few random thoughts in response to some of the threads on here...as awlays, just my opinion!

1. It makes no sense to get rid of the cald season until you remove the cow LEH....I would imagine the mortality rates on calves who are orphaned in October must be almost 100%

2. For those who do not think there is competition for food for the moose. The ministry for years has been coming up with ways to suppress the growth of forage plants in the blocks. For whoever suggested that herbicide use is down....you're probably right, but with the use of "processing at the stump" logging they are creating the same effect of suppressing the growth of plants that compete with the young replanted pine. It used to be a portion of the blocks got herbicide....now virtually every block cut gets the process at the stump treatment. I don't know if you folks have noticed but we are logging vast tracts in traditional moose areas....has to be putting a food crunch on the swamp donkeys.

3. If they are going to continue with a cow draw/calf season, I would like to see the bull LEH and the spike/fork season suspended for those two weeks. Having every moose in the bush open to someone during the rut makes no sense to me. It concentrates non local hunters into that 2 week period and I do believe that number of hunters has to be disruptive to the rut. It would lessen the stress on the moose as they get ready for winter if we broke up the different opportunities in 7A so that 80% of the moose hunting is not packed into 10% of the season.

Just a few thoughts
Chris

[BCBRAD]

i have no issue with the calf moose hunt, the moose population in the Yellowhead corridor, Tete Jaune to Smithers has remained stable with the conservation efforts as they are. What i do have issue with is the way LE's are handed out. If your a native any time is moose hunting time for nose's, tongues and hind quarters. CN claims about as many in the winter months, and highways a few more. The wolves take care of the young and the week first then everything else as the winter progress's. In my household we can get 3 LEH permits in one year, if lucky enough to get whats left over from the above. One moose is lots for a year in our house. However , we all like hunting and busting the two other tags is just over kill, so they rarely, if we have more than one tag, get filled. So we all get tags one year we are at the bottom of the heap for 4-6yrs in our area. We hunt 2spike moose and calfs in season, again one is enough. Now the group hunt is something I don't like. 4 big bull tags in one camp, 8 people thats 8 quads and 4 pick-up trucks hunting 6-8 hours a day for two weeks. This has happened in our small valley two years in a row. That much pressure effects the big bull population in that small area, adversely. If its about conservation then the allocation system must be overhauled, done equitably will make for more opportunities for more people. EG: if the chances are 6:1 for big bull I would expect that my household, of 3, would get an LE every second year, not three in one year and nothing for 6 years.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

If you tell a rancher that the best way to controll and build his stock is to shoot every second young head ... he would tell you that you are on drugs

That is my opinion of the BC Moose conservation plan ...
50% will die anyway ... so we go out and harvest ....
do any of you actually think that because we harvested that 50% the other 50% will Survive ...
I do not ... of the remaining 50%, 50% of that will die off natuarally etc... thus leaving a total of 25% of the original population .....
No freakin wonder alot of People i know didnt see a moose this year

[Schmaus]

Alls I gotta say for all the people that say they didn't see any moose this year is......... Maybe you should try a little harder :) There are moose everywhere around PG.

[ThisIsLiving]

lol agreed..... down in vernon i can go out for an afternoon and see up to 10 in an evening....lol and up in the PG area 7-5 MU i have never been up there without not seeing a good 20 moose or more per trip.... this is not during the rut :).... for all you people with the opinion of getting ripped off 7 dollers for an LEH dont put in if you think your odds of getting one are that bad all the more for my family and friends :)

[kgriz]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing..........

[Stone Sheep Steve]

[quote=6616;355555]

In March 2008 Ecodomain consulting released a report entitled "Towards an Inproved Moose Management Strategy for BC". This is a very good read and maybe essential reading for anyone who wants to change the management system in 7a.

I can send a copy by e-mail,,, if anyone wants it PM me.
Is this the same report you offered to send Brent (SSS)?

quote]
SorryAndy, haven't followed this thread for a couple of days.

Yes, that's the same report.

SSS

[jml11]

IF you disagree with the moose calf season, then you must also disagree with all the LEH and GOS antlerless seasons in the province as well???? As under these seasons it's perfectly legal to shoot a fawn deer, calf elk or calf moose.

Anyone who thinks moose pops are declining in 7A should go one one of the annual winter census flights and your opinions would be quickly changed. Seeing 10-12 moose per cutblock is quite a common site during these flights. The moose population in 7A is counted/assesed every year, so MOE knows excatly how the populations are doing. The fact that seasons are getting more liberal suggests they are doing fine.

[308Lover]

Can this season! A dead moose has NO chance of becoming the elusive spike/fork. I'm also sick of the gong show that occurs when hunters converge up north for the deer/calf moose season.As for massive count from the air? Don't make me laugh. A hundred thousand hectares of herbicide-sprayed cutblocks are as dead as the moon. Small unsprayed blocks have a few moose because there's no where else to go!Calf mortality around here is due to black bear predation,lack of feed and hunting pressure. COLOR ME AGAINST CALF SEASON. It was only implemented because people bitched about cow season closures.I attended many meetings about this one!

[BCrams]

Here are some con's:

Mortality is naturally high in this age group
Prevents them from growing up to become big bulls, cows or spike-fork's
Has a high risk to alter the overall population down the road thus reducing opportunityAs others have stated already - I have no idea where you plucked those points from .... I disagree on all three points.

The moose management system in 7A has been around for a long time. (~30 yrs) If the harvest of calf moose was detrimental to the overall moose population in 7A - we would have seen changes by now. The current system is one of the best moose management systems in North America. Its sustainable.

When we have something which works for as long as it has, not a whole lot of tweaking needs to be done.






.............

Face it, cutblocks are moose habitat until they're over 15yo regen. Take a look at 7A on Google earth and tell me there's a shortage of sub 15yo cutblocks!!

Actually - cut blocks up to 15 years are great for hunting as you can see the moose.....but the reality is ...cutblocks in the 20-30 yr range are peak habitat for moose. They're there but difficult to see .... hence hunting style needs to change to target bulls in these older cuts.

[hunter1947]

I'm against the calf cow season these are the up coming generations and if a big percentage of them get shot off in different regions then the populations numbers will be reduced.

Winter kill ,predators as for hunters all bare a factor on the numbers.

I can see the management open up calf ,cow for a region that bull cow numbers is out of wack to get it back on track in order to have the right numbers.

[BCrams]

I'm against the calf cow season these are the up coming generations and if a big percentage of them get shot off in different regions then the populations numbers will be reduced.

Winter kill ,predators as for hunters all bare a factor on the numbers.

I can see the management open up calf ,cow for a region that bull cow numbers is out of wack to get it back on track in order to have the right numbers.

Its guys like you with opinions as such that really 'screw' up wildlife. Such as wanting to keep the EK elk the way they are .... when in fact opinions like yours are to the detriment of wildlife populations.

Bluntly put - you have no clue what you are talking about.

[GoatGuy]

As you can imagine, this is one of the most disagreed on subjects regarding moose management in 7A. Hunters and guides offer an equal difference in opinion on the issue. How do you feel?

Here are some con's:

Mortality is naturally high in this age group
Prevents them from growing up to become big bulls, cows or spike-fork's
Has a high risk to alter the overall population down the road thus reducing opportunity Here some pro's:

Very good meat
Fairly easy to get for the less physical hunter
Offers lots of opportunity for moose hunting success

Google search Ken Childs, Terry Bubnik?? out of Ontario. Also selective harvest strategy moose, netherlands, norway, sweden etc., I'm sure you'll find something.:oops:


By the way this:



Mortality is naturally high in this age group
Prevents them from growing up to become big bulls, cows or spike-fork's
Has a high risk to alter the overall population down the road thus reducing opportunity
Is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyyyyyyy out of line.

There's a pile of reading you need to catch up on.

[GoatGuy]

Hunting calf moose calves emulates natural mortality more closely than bull-only hunts. Because fewer calves survive through winter than any other age category, a higher percentage of calves that are harvested by hunters would die over the winter anyway. “Most calves and fawns will soon die. Only the luckiest and fittest will survive. Therefore either hunters or Mother Nature can take them. The logical harvesting strategy is to take calves or fawns during the fall hunting seasons, before winter can waste them.”

-Valerius Geist, Professor Emeritus of Environmental Science at the University of Calgary, Alberta, and leading authority on wild ungulates .

Some people are genuinely taken aback to realize that game managers use calf hunts as part of their strategy to manage moose populations in some areas. I have even heard dyed-in-the-wool hunters claim that it is unethical to kill calves - and that it will destroy moose populations.

In truth, calf hunting is a widely used and effective management tool. A quick look at game management and the history of the “buck only” hunting ethic will clear up these misconceptions about harvesting antlerless animals.

The word ‘calf’ conjures the image of a helpless newborn lying wet in the grass, hiding still and silent from predators. It is important to note that calf hunts take place in the fall when calves are relatively large and capable of living on their own. By September moose calves can weigh 300-400 pounds, roughly the size of an adult bull caribou, and yield about 100 pounds of boned-out meat.

Cow and calf hunting was not a contentious issue until the turn of the 20th century. Widespread market hunting and unrestricted hunting for food culminated around the 1890s, and many game animals in the Lower 48 were virtually eliminated. In that era, all ages and sexes of animals were harvested - people hunted for meat and it made little difference if there were antlers on the animal’s head. People also did not understand the principle of sustainable yield and many held the attitude that it was only a matter of time before there would be no game left - so they had better get their share.

Fortunately, at the turn of the century game management agencies began to implement and enforce regulations to protect and increase the remaining game populations. To grow the populations agencies prohibited the harvest of antlerless animals - a good strategy for low or declining populations.

Pennsylvania was one state to spearhead this effort to rebuild their obliterated white-tailed deer population. Initially, resistance to the “buck only” policy was considerable, and enforcement was difficult. Over time, efforts to educate the public were successful, and attitudes began to change. Enforcement became more effective, and the deer population rebounded.

“All western states allow taking of calves and fawns,” said Fairbanks Area Biologist Don Young. Recently, Colorado hunters took more that 4,000 elk calves, and Pennsylvania hunters took more than 100,000 deer fawns. Many Canadian provinces and all Scandinavian countries allow taking of moose calves. “Forty percent of the moose harvest in Scandinavia is composed of calves,” Young said.
Alaska had no regulation prohibiting the harvest of moose calves from 1959 until 2002, and it has always been legal to take calf caribou and fawn deer in Alaska. A short-lived statewide prohibition on harvesting moose calves was rescinded at the 2004 Board of Game meeting because there was no biological need to protect calves statewide.

“The repeal of the calf harvest prohibition does not make it legal to harvest calves throughout the state,” said Young. “It only makes it legal in areas where there is an any-bull bag limit, an antlerless-moose bag limit, or a specified calf hunt is in place.” This same scenario has existed since statehood.

Alaska is a huge state with incredibly diverse ecosystems, habitat and animal populations. No two populations face the same conditions - habitat, weather, predator pressure and hunting pressure is different across the state - and different management strategies are used in different areas.

Controlled calf hunts can allow managers to:

• Increase hunting opportunity while stabilizing high density, increasing populations.
• Help reduce the hunting pressure on adult bulls where the bull:cow ratio is below management objectives.
• Increase the sustainable yield of a population to help meet intensive management harvest objectives.
http://www.wildlifenews.alaska.gov/pubs/wildlife_news//images/522.jpg These “broomed” willows near Fairbanks show the impacts of overbrowsing by moose in the area.
Young manages the largest moose population in the state, on the Tanana Flats region outside of Fairbanks (Unit 20A and 20B). Although large and increasing, the population is nutritionally stressed and is managed for intensive harvest. Young is a major proponent of a selective harvest strategy which he describes as the movement from general harvest of bulls-only to more selective harvest across age and sex class (bulls, calves, and cows). Selective harvest ultimately increases yield and allows for micromanagement and stabilizing of populations.

“Calf hunts are not the appropriate management tool in all locations, but a combination of high moose density, poor habitat, and an intensive management mandate make Unit 20A an ideal location,” Young said.

Young said biologically, harvesting calves emulates natural mortality more closely than a bull-only hunt. Because fewer calves survive through winter than any other age category, a higher percentage of calves that are harvested by hunters would die over the winter anyway--either from starvation or predators. Biologists call this compensatory mortality. Harvest of adult animals, on the other hand, is called additive mortality because adults are far less likely to die over the winter.

Taking a low percentage of calves can increase hunting opportunity and yield, while having little effect on the population stability. This is an important concept when faced with intensive management. How else can you provide more hunting opportunity, put meat on more tables, yet apply minimal extra pressure on a population?

New tools have helped biologists fine-tune game management. “We have seen many advances in moose ecology, population studies and management methods during the past 30 years,” said ADF&G Research Biologist Rodney Boertje.

The use of radio collars, moose density surveys, twinning surveys, and vegetation studies now provide managers with a reliable way to determine when cow and calf hunts are appropriate. In addition, all antlerless hunts in Alaska must be approved annually by citizen advisory committees and the Board of Game to ensure that the harvest is having the desired effect.

Today, cow hunts are so common in certain areas that they hardly raise an eyebrow. In fact, many drawing permits for cow moose are coveted. Cow hunts are a critical tool for managers to maintain healthy moose herds and protect the public, especially near urban areas where there are lots of moose/auto collisions, or in high density moose populations. Bull-only hunts have their place, but so do cow and calf hunts. Managers need all the tools they can use to ensure sustainability of Alaska’s moose, one of our most important natural resources.

For a more information about Selective Harvest Strategy in Region III and/or a brochure about Moose Calf Hunts as a Management Tool, contact:

Don Young, Area Biologist
Alaska Department of Fish and Game
Division of Wildlife Conservation
1300 College Road
Fairbanks, AK 99701-1599
Phone: 907 459-7233
Fax: 907 452-6410
Email: don_young@fishgame.state.ak.us

[GoatGuy]

It's a use it or loose it resource.

Feed the wolves or feed your family



Tough decisions.....................:lol:

[Hoytster]

Food for thought.....this year, in my very limited time I had to spend in the bush,...I counted 23 cows!.....this was over a period of 2 days from 6:30am-5:30pm......I saw NO CALVES!! with any of these cows..NONE!.....I have never in the 18 years that I have been in the same 7A Mu, seen this before...has me worried a bit.

[BCrams]

Food for thought.....this year, in my very limited time I had to spend in the bush,...I counted 23 cows!.....this was over a period of 2 days from 6:30am-5:30pm......I saw NO CALVES!! with any of these cows..NONE!.....I have never in the 18 years that I have been in the same 7A Mu, seen this before...has me worried a bit.

You likely saw the same cow several times over a couple days :lol:

Really though - nothing to worry about.

[hunter1947]

Its guys like you with opinions as such that really 'screw' up wildlife. Such as wanting to keep the EK elk the way they are .... when in fact opinions like yours are to the detriment of wildlife populations.

Bluntly put - you have no clue what you are talking about.

BC Ram I do know what I am talking about .
Hunting the EK for elk for 41 years tell me what I have seen done over the years out in the hunting field ,its people like you that have to wake up and open your eyes :roll::roll::roll: LOL :lol:.

[BCrams]

BC Ram I do know what I am talking about .
Hunting the EK for elk for 41 years tell me what I have seen done over the years out in the hunting field ,its people like you that have to wake up and open your eyes :roll::roll::roll: LOL :lol:.

Typical hunter who "think" you know what there is to know.




I'm against the calf cow season these are the up coming generations and if a big percentage of them get shot off in different regions then the populations numbers will be reduced.


Explain this comment. You said you know what you're talking about.

Back up your statements. With a system in 7a which has been deemed the most successful moose management in N.A. ....... tell us or rather ... why don't you educate us .. how your statement is the right one.

Hunters like you with statements like yours are pretty rampant. You need to read up more to supplement your hunting experience to gain a better understanding of management.

Then perhaps you won't spew off the cuff comments like you do.

[GoatGuy]

I have never been a follower and like to question things when they don't make sense or if I disagree. Therefore I don't blindly nod my head when someone says something is ok. I like and respect Glen and Doug but I challenge them every time when I see a problem..

It's good to challenge things.

I'd love to be in the room when you tell Doug this

Cons


Mortality is naturally high in this age group
Prevents them from growing up to become big bulls, cows or spike-fork's
Has a high risk to alter the overall population down the road thus reducing opportunity
I've really gotta laugh. No offense but I think he'd light you up like a Christmas tree. That grumpy old bugger isn't really PC when it comes to this sort of stuff. Makes me chuckle.

[hunter1947]

Typical hunter who "think" you know what there is to know.




Explain this comment. You said you know what you're talking about.

Back up your statements. With a system in 7a which has been deemed the most successful moose management in N.A. ....... tell us or rather ... why don't you educate us .. how your statement is the right one.

Hunters like you with statements like yours are pretty rampant. You need to read up more to supplement your hunting experience to gain a better understanding of management.

This means all species.

Then perhaps you won't spew off the cuff comments like you do.

It was you that spewed off the cuff comments BC Ram ,not me :smile:.

As you know in any region it takes all to as a hole to have a stable head of animals in any species.

For moose and others it takes habitat ,cow to bull ratio as for hunting presser ,winter kill ,and predator kills.

What I know is that if you reduce the number of cows and calf's to a low.
It is not managed properly the numbers in that region will be at a low.

It will take a number of years for the animals to recover and it might take sever actions from the wildlife management to get the numbers back to a respectable number.

[Sitkaspruce]

BC Ram I do know what I am talking about .
Hunting the EK for elk for 41 years tell me what I have seen done over the years out in the hunting field ,its people like you that have to wake up and open your eyes :roll::roll::roll: LOL :lol:.

Wayne

I respect your opinion on a lot of things, but I have to disagree on this one. Just because you have been in the field for 2-3 weeks/year in the EK, does not give you the total picture of what is happening there. Things change and unless you are there all the time, it is not a great idea to think that just because.....that you know all that is happening. I respect Rams on his opinions, as I know him personally:shock::wink: and what his background is. He does keep his finger on the pulse of what is happening and it is time that a few of the "Arm Chair Bio's" listen to what he has to say. Of course everyone is intiteled to his/her opinion, so I just threw mine out there.

I guess I have a question for all the nay sayers out there....

actually I will put it in.......Another Poll:shock::shock:

Cheers

SS

[hunter1947]

Wayne

I respect your opinion on a lot of things, but I have to disagree on this one. Just because you have been in the field for 2-3 weeks/year in the EK, does not give you the total picture of what is happening there. Things change and unless you are there all the time, it is not a great idea to think that just because.....that you know all that is happening. I respect Rams on his opinions, as I know him personally:shock::wink: and what his background is. He does keep his finger on the pulse of what is happening and it is time that a few of the "Arm Chair Bio's" listen to what he has to say. Of course everyone is intiteled to his/her opinion, so I just threw mine out there.

I guess I have a question for all the nay sayers out there....

actually I will put it in.......Another Poll:shock::shock:

Cheers

SS

As you said SS ,everyone has got there opinions ,and that was my opinion.
I loose respect for some people even if they do know a lot.
That gives no right for BC Ram to do any name calling.
People should keep the name calling off the site and stick to the issue.

[BCrams]

As you said SS ,everyone has got there opinions ,and that was my opinion.
I loose respect for some people even if they do know a lot.
That gives no right for BC Ram to do any name calling.
People should keep the name calling off the site and stick to the issue.

I don't recal calling anyone names. Unless its this comment:

"Typical hunter who "think" you know what there is to know."

If so, and it offends you - I appologize....however asking for an explanation regarding your statement regarding calf moose harvest was not out of line. You clearly avoided the question. If you say something - whether an opinion or not - you're bound to be asked to back up what you say.

[hunter1947]

I don't recal calling anyone names. Unless its this comment:

"Typical hunter who "think" you know what there is to know."

If so, and it offends you - I appologize....however asking for an explanation regarding your statement regarding calf moose harvest was not out of line. You clearly avoided the question. If you say something - whether an opinion or not - you're bound to be asked to back up what you say.

BC Ram I am backing up what I am saying as a field hunter in places I have hunted over the years.

AS I said 7A is just one region that is mentioned.
Its what I see in other regions over the years is what I know.

This cow calf numbers out there are low in any region for that one species your going to have low birth rates ,it does not take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
Look what happened to the elk in the kootneys when they opened it up for the slaughter to the cow elk in the earl 90ties.

As for the wording you said back a few posts ago ,what you said is ,you have no cleu what you are talking about.

Everyone has there opinion and you have to respect people for theirs.
I was wrong on the name calling ,you are right you did not name call ,I apologize.

[BCrams]

BC Ram I am backing up what I am saying as a field hunter in places I have hunted over the years.

AS I said 7A is just one region that is mentioned.
Its what I see in other regions over the years is what I know.

This cow calf numbers out there are low in any region for that one species your going to have low birth rates ,it does not take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
Look what happened to the elk in the kootneys when they opened it up for the slaughter to the cow elk in the earl 90ties.

Fair enough.

How about this one -

A region - (lets call it the East Kootenays :smile:)

Has an elk population - at and above carrying capacity.

The 6 pt regulation was great to help recover the population since the mid 1990's.

Now we have a situation at hand ...... something needs to change and keeping the 6 pt in effect is a bad choice ...

A proposed 1 week 'conservative' 3 pt season has already went to the table ....... yet defeated by vocal people who 'believe otherwise' ...

Whats the solution??

I do know the bio's on staff will not get the blame this time....

[hunter1947]

Fair enough.

How about this one -

A region - (lets call it the East Kootenays :smile:)

Has an elk population - at and above carrying capacity.

The 6 pt regulation was great to help recover the population since the mid 1990's.

Now we have a situation at hand ...... something needs to change and keeping the 6 pt in effect is a bad choice ...

A proposed 1 week 'conservative' 3 pt season has already went to the table ....... yet defeated by vocal people who 'believe otherwise' ...

Whats the solution??

I do know the bio's on staff will not get the blame this time....

# 1 BC Ram The elk capacity is above carring capacity in the EK.

# 2 Have a 3 point season for 10 days or a 5 point season to reduce the numbers to a leavel where the elk have enough habitat..

# 3 Don't change the 6 point season other then having it open for 10 days for 3 point or 5 points for 10 day season starting the last 10 days of the elk season..http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

[dryflyguy57]

The rail line is a definate problem.I have heard the reported numbers for CN,s moose hits is extremley low but actual kills according to a fly over is somewhere around 170 dead moose between Smithers and Endako. Does anybody else know the numbers or know if this is getting out to the public. The rail traffic has increased big time what with containers , coal and soon potash going into Ridley Terminals . Seems like a great place for political interference to manipulate the bueracrats .

[BCrams]

# 1 BC Ram The elk capacity is above carring capacity in the EK.

# 2 Have a 3 point season for 10 days or a 5 point season to reduce the numbers to a leavel where the elk have enough habitat..

# 3 Don't change the 6 point season other then having it open for 10 days for 3 point or 5 points for 10 day season starting the last 10 days of the elk season..http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif.

Good to have you on board!!!

Start convincing the members of the Kootenay clubs and other individuals who think nothing should change.

[Mooseman]

It's good to challenge things.

I'd love to be in the room when you tell Doug this

Cons


Mortality is naturally high in this age group
Prevents them from growing up to become big bulls, cows or spike-fork's
Has a high risk to alter the overall population down the road thus reducing opportunity
I've really gotta laugh. No offense but I think he'd light you up like a Christmas tree. That grumpy old bugger isn't really PC when it comes to this sort of stuff. Makes me chuckle.

Here how my post continues: .......... Always with respect and open to learn!!!

My hopes are clear. I would like a higher population of moose in BC and fear that the calf season is not helping. A higher population would create more opportunity, quality experiences, success and hunter recruitment and retention...........
__________________________________________________ _____________________

Hi GoatGuy,

I am happy to have provided you with a laugh and a chuckle ;-)

Best Regards,
Michael

[PGK]

Here how my post continues: .......... Always with respect and open to learn!!!

My hopes are clear. I would like a higher population of moose in BC and fear that the calf season is not helping. A higher population would create more opportunity, quality experiences, success and hunter recruitment and retention...........
__________________________________________________ _____________________

Hi GoatGuy,

I am happy to have provided you with a laugh and a chuckle ;-)

Best Regards,
Michael


Michael, you are wrong, but they are not helping to explain why you are wrong. I understand you opinion. But it isn't the right one.

Greg et al: Maybe sit down and try to explain the moose management plans for 7A so that mooseman et al can form a more educated opinion on the matter. There's no sense in sitting there telling them they're wrong without telling them why they're wrong.
There's also no point in telling them to back their opinions up, when you know they can't.

[Mooseman]

Hi Greg,
Please show me where I am wrong. Like I said, I am always willing to listen (in this case read) and learn.

I can back up my opinion. Can you?

[PGK]

Hi Greg,
Please show me where I am wrong. Like I said, I am always willing to listen (in this case read) and learn.

I can back up my opinion. Can you?

You better do it then! Because BCrams et al are not going to give you one inch if you don't start now! I like a good discussion as much as the next guy, but there's no point in both of you sitting here telling each other you're right without explaining why!

[killman]

IMO Moose numbers in certian area's are dropping, but I don't think it is from hunting pressures. The area I usually hunt and have be hunting for quite some time we have been seen fewer and fewer moose each year. But we have also been seening more and more Elk and Wolves. I think both are causeing the moose to move.

Just my opinion :wink:

[barry1974w]

Well, I'm in support of the calf season even if I don't hunt it. Without the calf season there wouldn't really be a reasonable chance of anybody getting moose on a regular basis without a draw, and taking calves has little impact on long term populations.
I don't hunt during calf season because I don't like hunting with crowds. On a side note, I live on 500 acres outside of Prince George where I can't keep a no trespassing without owners permission sign standing. We've been having lots of problems with "hunters" (using the term loosely) taking down the signs and poaching game off our land. If any of you guys know these people, let them know they're giving all of us a bad name.

[killman]

Well, I'm in support of the calf season even if I don't hunt it. Without the calf season there wouldn't really be a reasonable chance of anybody getting moose on a regular basis without a draw, and taking calves has little impact on long term populations.
I don't hunt during calf season because I don't like hunting with crowds. On a side note, I live on 500 acres outside of Prince George where I can't keep a no trespassing without owners permission sign standing. We've been having lots of problems with "hunters" (using the term loosely) taking down the signs and poaching game off our land. If any of you guys know these people, let them know they're giving all of us a bad name.

Where? Can I have permission :smile:

[Mooseman]

I am not principally against a "lower risk" calf season. I do believe though that a GOS calf season as we have it in 7-A is to high of a risk to the moose population. I also would suspect that this season was created for political reasons. As is the proposal to take it province wide.


Bears go after calf's from May on
Wolfs are after them from May on
FN's harvest some calf's
Train kills are mostly cows and calf's
GOS season on calf'sThat is a lot of pressure on this important age group, don't you think?

I have to say that I am pleased to see the poll results at 53.33% against the calf season. I would guess that if one would start a poll with the option to have a "low risk" calf season, like LEH or 5 day calf season, that number would go up higher yet.

I would also guess that most votes "for a GOS calf season" are from people not living in Reg 7-A.

[GoatGuy]

I am not principally against a "lower risk" calf season. I do believe though that a GOS calf season as we have it in 7-A is to high of a risk to the moose population. I also would suspect that this season was created for political reasons. As is the proposal to take it province wide.

Bears go after calf's from May on
Wolfs are after them from May on
FN's harvest some calf's
Train kills are mostly cows and calf's
GOS season on calf'sThat is a lot of pressure on this important age group, don't you think?

I have to say that I am pleased to see the poll results at 53.33% against the calf season. I would guess that if one would start a poll with the option to have a "low risk" calf season, like LEH or 5 day calf season, that number would go up higher yet.

I would also guess that most votes "for a GOS calf season" are from people not living in Reg 7-A.
Instead of giving you answers I'll give you some work. :smile:

The season was created by Ken Childs in the 80s. There's plenty of litt on it. Read that to start. That will give you the history on moose in 7A.

Call Heard and ask him to send you some litt. I'm sure he has a pile of it. There were a couple of good articles in Alces a couple years ago as well. He probably has them avail on PDF. Read those.

He might even send you his magic wand :shock:

Ontario's looking at their calf harvest strategy and all of that is based on post hunt ratios. Read about their harvest and targets and their experience with the selective harvest strategy.

Look at how it's worked overseas.


Read everything off here including census data.


http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/omr/esd/faw/index.html



Finally, what kind of calf:cow ratios during winter flights are you looking for an increasing, stable, decreasing population?

Calves per 100 cows.

Then compare to what you have in 7A and get back to us. Don't forget to include what's going on in the Parsnip: success rates, LEH authorizations, targets and current status of the moose population.

I think it will be better if you come up with this stuff than having somebody else say it.


This should give you the answer without loose generalizations. This is a good one because we actually have all the research and the data at our fingertips.

This is a good one.

[GoatGuy]

__________________________________________________ _____________________

Hi GoatGuy,

I am happy to have provided you with a laugh and a chuckle ;-)

Best Regards,
Michael



Makes me smile. Mr.Heard's quite the character!

[Tron]

I am not going to argue over something we have differences of opinion on, but I do trust one of the best Bio's in NA and I believe what he says has merrit. If you don't, give him a ring, he lives in Port Alberni and I am sure he would love to here your ideas and why YOU think HIS are BS.

Cheers

SS

I agree with SS. I took a calf this year and hunted hard to get it. I was in the same area last year with a leh bull tag and filled it. But between this year and last year the wolf sign has increased and the moose sign had decreased.

The few animals we hunters harvest does not compare to what the wolf's and some bad winters are doing and that's just my opinion.

[kgs]

I would like calf season to continue but at the same time I would like to see more spike moose. Maybe they can skip a calf season every 2nd year maybe that will help produce more spike moose. I definitely would not want to see the total end of calf season all together. How about suspending calf seasons on a rotational basis in different MU's in 7A.

[Mooseman]

Instead of giving you answers I'll give you some work. :smile:

The season was created by Ken Childs in the 80s. There's plenty of litt on it. Read that to start. That will give you the history on moose in 7A.

Call Heard and ask him to send you some litt. I'm sure he has a pile of it. There were a couple of good articles in Alces a couple years ago as well. He probably has them avail on PDF. Read those.

He might even send you his magic wand :shock:

Ontario's looking at their calf harvest strategy and all of that is based on post hunt ratios. Read about their harvest and targets and their experience with the selective harvest strategy.

Look at how it's worked overseas.


Read everything off here including census data.


http://wlapwww.gov.bc.ca/omr/esd/faw/index.html



Finally, what kind of calf:cow ratios during winter flights are you looking for an increasing, stable, decreasing population?

Calves per 100 cows.

Then compare to what you have in 7A and get back to us. Don't forget to include what's going on in the Parsnip: success rates, LEH authorizations, targets and current status of the moose population.

I think it will be better if you come up with this stuff than having somebody else say it.


This should give you the answer without loose generalizations. This is a good one because we actually have all the research and the data at our fingertips.

This is a good one.

Hi GoatGuy,
Sorry but I don't need more work :razz: and my knowledge comes more from looking at moose vs. reading about them. I am not so much a stat's guy even though I have read most of the literature you mention.

Comparing European moose management with no or little predation will not help us much as that is my point. We don't need to ad to the mortality rate on the calf component and absolutely, I would like to see an increase in the moose population.

Doesn't everyone want more moose out there?

[GoatGuy]

Hi GoatGuy,
Sorry but I don't need more work :razz: and my knowledge comes more from looking at moose vs. reading about them. I am not so much a stat's guy even though I have read most of the literature you mention.

Comparing European moose management with no or little predation will not help us much as that is my point. We don't need to ad to the mortality rate on the calf component and absolutely, I would like to see an increase in the moose population.

Doesn't everyone want more moose out there?

I see, this is unfortunate.

I can't support the logic and generalization about an entire region when you hunt out of one of the smallest territories in 7A. You aren't the only person who's guided moose out of 7A, believe me! ;)

Ontario has plenty of preds and all kinds of data with the same management system.

So does Alaska.

BC has some data.

Look at all the census data between all the regions and mu's that skip across an imaginary line and you'll find your answer.

If you aren't willing to do the work you won't know the answer. If you had read all that info you'd already know the answer.

I think this thread's been a red-herring, but I'd love to be a fly on the wall when Heard hears about it.

[Mooseman]

No, no red herring here. Just wanted to see how many hunters think the calf season in 7-A should stay or go.

And that is the honest truth.

Lets just agree that we disagree and I wish you happy hunting.

Best Regards,
Michael

[GoatGuy]

No, no red herring here. Just wanted to see how many hunters think the calf season in 7-A should stay or go.

And that is the honest truth.

Lets just agree that we disagree and I wish you happy hunting.

Best Regards,
Michael



Same to you.

[PGK]

Wonder what happens if somebody drops a link to this thread in Mr. Heard's email inbox?

[GoatGuy]

Wonder what happens if somebody drops a link to this thread in Mr. Heard's email inbox?

I'm sure he's already heard from mooseman about this. :smile:

[hunter1947]

Hunters keep taking away calf's and cows as for the GOS for bulls it won't take to long before there is a low number of animals.

You get less and less recruitment in the years to follow.
Winter kill takes a good percentage of calf's as well as for predators take there fair share as well.

The only way I will agree with cow calf season to be opened up is if the cow calf ratio gets out of line.
This is my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

[6616]

Hunters keep taking away calf's and cows as for the GOS for bulls it won't take to long before there is a low number of animals.

You get less and less recruitment in the years to follow.
Winter kill takes a good percentage of calf's as well as for predators take there fair share as well.

The only way I will agree with cow calf season to be opened up is if the cow calf ratio gets out of line.
This is my opinion and I'm sticking with it.


This calf moose season is not a new thing Wayne, it has been open for many years now, probably a couple of decades. The interesting thing is that your predicted results to adult moose numbers has never occurred.

In fact the opposite has occurred. While moose numbers, moose annual harvests and moose hunting opportunities have declined across the province in all other regions, they have been maintained in Region 7a. how do you explain that?

[PGK]

I'm sure he's already heard from mooseman about this. :smile:

I was thinking in terms of the poll results!! SURPRISING!! I wish this poll had been made public!

[GoatGuy]

I was thinking in terms of the poll results!! SURPRISING!! I wish this poll had been made public!

It isn't surprising; there are plenty of hunters who think that by shooting calves you'll bring the population down despite what biology and wildlife management have found over the past 30 years across the world and here in Canada.

For some reason many hunters have this concept that shooting any of the female component or recruitment off is a bad thing. They couldn't be more wrong, but they really don't get it and many don't want to get it.


While the efforts to educate the public have dwindled since Wildlife Review was stopped there is still plenty of literature available and hunters should be a bit more willing to read up on this sort of thing.

Edit: Mr.Heard's also smart enough to figure this stuff out. He's also more than willing to put you in your place which is nice in today's day and age.

[PGK]

It isn't surprising; there are plenty of hunters who think that by shooting calves you'll bring the population down despite what biology and wildlife management have found over the past 30 years across the world and here in Canada.

For some reason many hunters have this concept that shooting any of the female component or recruitment off is a bad thing. They couldn't be more wrong, but they really don't get it and many don't want to get it.


While the efforts to educate the public have dwindled since Wildlife Review was stopped there is still plenty of literature available and hunters should be a bit more willing to read up on this sort of thing.

I did my part this year :mrgreen: Tasty ol bitch she is :mrgreen:

[ThinAir]

Good points on either side..

My un-educated 2cents... I'm personally not a fan of the calf season. I do have faith that our biologists know what their doing and that it doesn't effect populations.

I've shot a few calves over the years and been on a few other calf kills.
I got tired of having momma call out to her downed calf, while nuzzling it to get up.:cry: It got old.

I always thought maybe drop the calf season and give us a GOS 3 point bull season. I often see yearling 3 point bulls- alot skip the 2 point.
This would give a guy without a draw a good shot at a moose, plus you have the whole season.

The pop could still be managed through LEH keeping the bull/cow ratio in check.

[Mooseman]

I'm sure he's already heard from mooseman about this. :smile:


I have a feeling you are much closer to Doug then I am :smile:

What I was hoping for as well from this thread and you guys is a realization and support for some predator control. With that we don't have to argue about allocation or seasons.

[GoatGuy]

I always thought maybe drop the calf season and give us a GOS 3 point bull season. I often see yearling 3 point bulls- alot skip the 2 point.
This would give a guy without a draw a good shot at a moose, plus you have the whole season.


The entire point of the 2 pt reg is it is a 'fail-safe' regulations and that you're harvesting the non-breeding component of the population.

The fail-safe part is that, as you said many bulls will be greater than a 2 pt on both sides ensuring recruitment. 50% is often quoted and some of the stuff I've seen indicates as little as 30% of yearling bulls are 2 pt or less. The ensures that no matter what some of the bulls will make it through the season.

Secondly you're harvesting the non-breeding segment. Part of the problem, particularly with moose is that conception can be delayed which results in late calves which are susceptible to higher mortality. Deer studies have shown that this does not apply to buck:doe ratios and age structure.

[GoatGuy]

What I was hoping for as well from this thread and you guys is a realization and support for some predator control. With that we don't have to argue about allocation or seasons.


If that's what you wanted to discuss post it up there. You're pointed in the right directions - instead of getting a bigger piece of the pie you create a bigger pie.

I don't think you'll have anybody who disagrees with you.:wink: