Need help on aging sheep

[kgriz]

After reading all of the previous ( and sometimes quite in-depth and lengthly) explanations on how to count sheep I was wondering how so many people count them differently when the picture on the CI sheet ( you know....what the inspectors will use ) is pretty clear......There's no biology discussions and all the other BS, just a plain and simple diagram of 7 annulis 7 years old.....thats it. No 1/2 for lamb tips, 1 1/2 for lamb tip plus next....just 1, 2, 3 etc. Its pretty clear, and I'd like to hear a reasonable explanation of why anybody would deviate from the CI example....certainly if it was close and a judge may get involved. Seems pretty clear to me that other than false annuli, there should be no interpretation of how to use this diagram and yes I see it says bighorn but the thinhorns get Ci'd with this form as well and I can't see there being an age "biology" difference between the two.http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z268/mikekozak/cisheep.jpg

[bruin]

I think the deviation is because so many people learn by word of mouth, so its more like a rumor than scientific fact (I am a perfect example). I don't understand why people use the 1/2 years. During a lambs 1st spring when it turns 1 there should be no growth yet past the 1st annuli so why not just call it 1 and save us the trouble?

[kgriz]

Like I said, its pretty clear on the sheet. Assuming this is the case I've let A LOT of sheep go thinking they were 7 1/2. I won't shoot one on age anyways but like I said, its just funny that there is any controversy on the method when its pretty clear on the CI sheet!

[Bighorn hunter]

My understanding is that the ci's have changed in recent years to get rid of the 1/2 yr and strictly go the way your sheet shows. I don't know where to look but if anyone has a old ci of one of their rams maybe it will show the 1/2 year on it. I was always taught to count the lamb tip as 1/2, but my dad is a sheep hunter from way back. I like the new way, les confusion

bhh

[kgriz]

I'll give a look and get back to you

[kgriz]

Nope, sheet was the same in 1996

[Bighorn hunter]

Interesting, I will have to talk to the old man and see what he has to say.Unforunatley he is in newfoundland out on the rock hunting caribou and wont be back for a while.

[Kody94]

Sheep are typically born in May. When a ram gets shot in October, its probably about X yrs + 5 months old. So its near X.5 yo when it dies.

Also, when the sheep's growth slows in the dead of winter, that is when the annuli is created. December/Jan/Feb is also approximately half a year from the sheep's birthday. This is why many people say its X and a half years old at the annuli.

Based on the picture in the CI guidance above, the horn to the right of the 7 yo annuli represents almost another half-year of growth that is not counted. Hence it is just a technically accurate to call that ram 7.5 yo.

BCRams' diagrams are the most technically accurate on the subject. Personally, I think they should be consolidated into a manual for CI's!

Cheers
4ster

[kgriz]

It amazes me that lots of people on here want to live and die by the rules but when a glitch is found or it doesn't match their opinion....then suddenly it switches to ethics. I have always aged sheep like aforsaid methods but then it came to my attention how it doesn't seem to match the the CI form. As far as I can tell lots of people using the 1 1/2 "biological" method would get a 7 1/2 year old ram that would be 8 using the CI method. Is this right?.....do we want more young rams shot? Whatever......I'm just looking at what is given as an example on the form that is technically THE designated representative of the Regional manager AKA. the person who gives the legal age of the sheep. This ties in nicely to what I was preaching about earlier about all of this counting.....its not what the age truly biologically is......its what is determined by the CI. I would hope that they would all follow the actual example provided on the form, not the various opinions of anybody else.

[kgriz]

:-(WHOOPS.......I didn't see the correction to BCram's diagram that then meets the CI diagram. Sorry to BCrams.....but it still stands that most people I've ever seen count do the 1 1/2 thing or other variations and this doesn't meet the CI sheet or BC rams diagram. So as far as I can tell BCrams's diagram meets the CI sheet and there is no other valid interpretation; unfortunately I'm somewhat of a victim of the 1 1/2 aging process as I've let some really nice 7 1/2 ers go that were 8.

[bighornbob]

I would hope that they would all follow the actual example provided on the form, not the various opinions of anybody else.


Thats where the problem arises not just the inspectors but the CO's, bios, everybody etc.

When i took my sheep in (back in 98) the CO's did the inspection. The CO looked at it and said its not legal, I said i do you figure. He had some wonky way of holding the horns and the horn did not make the eye socket. I said, why dont we put it in the jig and see if its legal as thats what they are supposed to use. He said and I quote "you have to go to university to know how that thing works". So I actually took the jig and put the sheep horns into it. Actually its quite easy, and with some playing around I got it figured out and it showed the ram to be legal. I told the guy, see this contraption says its legal. Then he says "dont tell me how to do my f**cking job". he takes the ram out of the jig and decides to use a flexible steel hand saw as a straight edge to see if it breaks the eye socket. Again he says its not legal, I ask him how he knows the saw is level. I show him that by tilting the saw the ram is either short by three inches or legal. He agreed that the saw was not the best. Go figure. He decided to confiscate it pending a bio to look at it. A few days later a bio looked at my sheep and said it was legal and I got it back.

As you can see there are a lot of discrepancys on how things are done and how they should be done.

BHB

[kgriz]

I agree, in fact its part of the reason I jumped the gun on the BCrams diagram as the first one using the 1/2 counts is how the majority of people count including the biologist that showed me how it was done.Would I shoot what I used to count a 7 1/2 er that is actually 8 based on this? Prob. not but I'd like to at least think that if I did it wouldn't be a problem because everybody uses the same method outlined on the sheet.

[Ambush]

I took a cali in, several years ago for inspection. The first fellow spent considerable time getting it into that home-made, rinky-dink apurratus and then said it's illegal. But he readily admitted that it looked legal in his hands. He called a senior fellow in and between the three of us we got it adjusted properly on the rack and it passed easily. But they were good about it. It was plainly legal by eye and I believe they would have passed it even if the jig kept saying illegal.

Depends on the inspector I guess.

They didn't use to pass a ram whose curl was so tight that it didn't go over the nose, just curled back into it's bases. If you couldn't see horn over the bridge, not legal. That's changed also, as it should.

[livingston]

Like I said, its pretty clear on the sheet. Assuming this is the case I've let A LOT of sheep go thinking they were 7 1/2.

Seems as though you may have let a bunch of younger rams go counting with the 1/2 year aging system thinking they were 7 1/2 not 8. Which is better for sheep and you, from shooting rams that may or may not have been legal considering false annuli.

[bigwhiteys]

I'll stick to the way I've been taught to count...


Like I said, its pretty clear on the sheet. Assuming this is the case I've let A LOT of sheep go thinking they were 7 1/2.

I think as others have stated you've saved yourself some trouble.

Carl

[boxhitch]

Well, heres the way I would go about it, if the opp came up......

-the critter is born in the spring
-each annuli is formed during the winter
-if the annuli is witnessed, then its been around for one year
so each ring gets one year
-starting at the tip, count the rings, 1, 2, 3, etc.
-judge the actual rings to follow the normal growth pattern, with decreasing spacing as cirumference increases (don't guess about short or sick years)
- the 'half year' can be added to the last or current season, if its been 6 months since winter. Look for less length/distance from the last ring too the base during a spring inventory.
- don't count what is not there,without a real good idea of what would occur for growth in the area and in the species.
- you don't tell someone you are in your '18th year' , and expect to get into the bar, you say 'I'm 17', and go rent a movie.
- study the family groups, too. Look at a Lamb, a yearly, a two yr old and see what they grow, to be able to judge what may be bromed off.

Maybe I'll get a chance soon........

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There's a sheep biologist travelling around putting on aging clinics for the Compulsary Inspectors as we speak...or I guess "type".

Somehow:roll:, it has been brought to the attn of the Ministry that some inspectors are less qualified than others.


SSS

[bigwhiteys]

There's a sheep biologist travelling around putting on aging clinics for the Compulsary Inspectors as we speak...or I guess "type".


That is good to hear! Too bad he doesn't put them on for hunters.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

That is good to hear! Too bad he doesn't put them on for hunters.

Carl

Hopefull this training session will go over well.


I wonder if the WSSBC might be able to entice the same bio to give a seminar at the next AGM.

If that is successful and well received, maybe it could expand to the rest of the province....however, budgets always seem to get in the way.:???:


SSS

[Jimbo]

I wonder if the WSSBC might be able to entice the same bio to give a seminar at the next AGM.


I attended a WSSBC seminar in the mid 90's (?) in Langley, and the guest speakers were Dr. Valerius Geist, and Darryl Hebert, the regional biologist involved with the Junction herd. There was enough info that day on annual rings, habitat, predators, and horn jigs to keep a sheep hunter awake all nighthttp://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[boxhitch]

If a proper 'guide' is created, it could be used by everyone, even CI contractors. A couple of diagrams showing young sheep, so the whole 'first-second year' thing is understood, would help with broomed rams whether Bighorn or Stones. The rest is understanding growth rate and counting rings.
The confusion shown on this site is exactly why the MOE and WSS sugggest NOT using age as a reliable indicator in the field.

But it seems some hunters/inspectors still have trouble with what legal curl is too. Maybe that should still be the education focus for now.

[GoatGuy]

Also, when the sheep's growth slows in the dead of winter, that is when the annuli is created. December/Jan/Feb is also approximately half a year from the sheep's birthday. This is why many people say its X and a half years old at the annuli.



Annuli are formed during the rut.

I was taught to start at the base and work out to the tip. My 'teacher' knows sheep fairly well.

Best getting somebody that knows what they're talking about and a couple sets of horns so you can sit around and look at them. Hitting winter range if it's near you also helps big time even for determining what's legal and what isn't when it comes to bighorns.

Half years don't count so don't bother with them.

As everybody's said best off making the legal curl definition - makes things easy.

[Kody94]

Annuli are formed during the rut.



Explains why the 1st and 2nd annuli can be difficult to identify. Must be lack of nutrition that creates those ones though.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Explains why the 1st and 2nd annuli can be difficult to identify. Must be lack of nutrition that creates those ones though.

Just like the annuli that form on the horns of the ewes??

SSS

[Bighorn hunter]

Explains why the 1st and 2nd annuli can be difficult to identify. Must be lack of nutrition that creates those ones though.


perhaps its false anuli that are formed during the rut?

BHH

[6616]

Appears to me that it doesn't really matter whether you include the half year or not, nor whether you start counting annulus from the base or the tip. Either way the diagram at the beginning of this thread shows a 7 year old (or 7 1/2 year old ram). Either way you look at it he has to have one more annulus to be legal.

If you count the 1/2 year, it can be the lamb tip growth (6 months of horn growth during his first year of life), or alternativelly, it can be the growth at the base of the horn below the last annulus during the last year of his life (6 months growth during the summer to the time he was harvested).

Since the horns only grow for the 6 summer months of the year, and the lambs are born in May, and the rams are harvested in Sept/Oct, it's obvious that the actual age of harvested rams are x 1/2 years old at the time of death. Whether you call it x years old or x 1/2 years old seems a moot point as far as legality goes, but x 1/2 years is technically correct for his actual true age at the time of harvesting.