Spences Bridge Ram

[Huey]

Here's a ram I saw on the way up to 5-01. He's got a few years before he's a shooter. I really hope he lasts till then, the way he was crossing the highway I don't think his chances are very good.
What is the silver tag on his horn?
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/20081017_0301.JPG

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/20081017_0299.JPG

[mark]

I sure wish I had seen something like that where I was!
Im far from an expert but is that sheep not 8 years old making him a shooter???

[newhunterette]

Scott, we saw that ram yesterday on our drive home - I tried to video them but Peter drives so flippin fast I just got zoom zoom zoom nothing

big ram and about 30 other smaller sheepies in the bunch :)

such a beauty sight when going through Spences

[MattB]

Looks like 6.5 to me...?


I sure wish I had seen something like that where I was!
Im far from an expert but is that sheep not 8 years old making him a shooter???

[slowkey]

yeah sasw him on the side of the road yesterday as well, a couple of younger rams as well. with the way traffic was stopping all over the hiway to video tape either the rams will get killed or someone will get hit.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Can't tell for sure but maybe 7?? Looks like he's got lots of new growth.

Going to be a gooder for sure....if no one runs him down.:|


SSS

[CT.45]

You guys stay away from my ram!!! I have been watching that guy for 3 years now. Season after next he will be legal and mine!!! ha-ha-ha
I know where he lives when not hanging out on the highway. ha-ha-ha!!!

[BCrams]

I know where he lives when not hanging out on the highway. ha-ha-ha!!!

So do I :mrgreen:

[Dirty]

If you guys know where he lives then start leaving food and mineral out for him so his horns grow faster. That way I can come up and shoot him when he is legal. :biggrin:

[guest]

I keep him well salted up, he likes me, he knows I have treats for him, funny thing .... I feed him my ghost shrimp while steel heading the Thompson, he likes seafood ....unreal eh? He's mine when legal !
C/T

[newhunterette]

How about y'all just step aside and let the ram be mine when he is legal - I could never do a sheep hunt like most of ya so let me have an easy one :)

just kidding I know there is no such thing as an easy sheep hunt - I still see the effects it took on Peter lol

[bighornbob]

I saw that ram this weekend as well, got about 120 pics of the guy, the closest from about 5 feet away. He is 7.5 years old for sure but he may be 8.5 this year. It was tough to tell from 25m with the spotter between 7.5 and 8.5 as they are close together.

I jumped two rams like that in the timber. The bigger one was looking straight at me so I could not count rings too well even as he walked off at 60m. The other ram walked within 15feet before he spooked. I called him back twice and through the crosshairs at 15m I could see he was only 6.5 years old. There was slight brooming (maybe a inch) but he was just to the top of the eyeball.

BHB

[bighornbob]

What is the silver tag on his horn?


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/20081017_0299.JPG


The silver tag is actually white and it is bird crap. He had another dropping just up from that one.

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If you guys know where he lives then start leaving food and mineral out for him so his horns grow faster. That way I can come up and shoot him when he is legal. :biggrin:

You've got about 6hrs left in the season!

Anyone got miracle grow for sheep??

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I saw that ram this weekend as well, got about 120 pics of the guy, the closest from about 5 feet away. He is 7.5 years old for sure but he may be 8.5 this year. It was tough to tell from 25m with the spotter between 7.5 and 8.5 as they are close together.

I jumped two rams like that in the timber. The bigger one was looking straight at me so I could not count rings too well even as he walked off at 60m. The other ram walked within 15feet before he spooked. I called him back twice and through the crosshairs at 15m I could see he was only 6.5 years old. There was slight brooming (maybe a inch) but he was just to the top of the eyeball.

BHB

To get that close and to be able to "call" him back you must have been wearing your "ewe outfit".:-D

Trojan Bob does it again!!8-)

SSS

[mark]

How do you call in sheep??? Baaaa, Baaa??? Please explain!

[bighornbob]

How do you call in sheep??? Baaaa, Baaa??? Please explain!

Its not so much of calling them in but stopping them or making them curious. Its hard to explain the type of sound but I have used its more then a few times and it seems to work.

I first heard the sound while hunting stones one year. As I was stalking two older rams and a young ram was following me. When i crested the hill I looked back and the 1/2 curl was trotting to catch up. I thought great he's is going to screw thing up. I ran about 15 feet and hid in between some boulders. The ram walked about 10ft past me and stopped at a ledge. He was looking down and all around and made this sort of sound a few times while looking for me, I guess he thought I was another sheep or something. He eventually wondered off. I made my way to the two large rams and saw they weren't legal. Just as i was going to leave another ram saw me in the rocks and was not sure what i was. I made the sound the other ram made and sure enough the ram came towards me. As he got closer I laid flat on the hill amongst the rocks and could hear him walk by. When he went off a ways I made the call again he came back again looking for me. I have used the call ever since.

Another time I tried it on a Rocky and it seemed to work again. Like I said the ram on the weekend knew something was there and came to see what it was. At about 15 feet he saw me kneeling in the short grass and took off down the hill. I called and could tell he stopped. When I began to stand up I could see he was coming back and I would crouch again. I held the camera above my head and snapped a pic and he took off downhill again. I called again and he came back again and i got another pic (will post later).

I am not sure what I am saying or doing (not too much reading out there on sheep vocalizations) but it is sort of calms them down and makes them curious. I have used it with sheep along highways etc etc and it does not work as well as when you see them in the woods. Might have something to do with a sheep not looking like a pick-up:-P or a person walking toward them.

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

How do you call in sheep??? Baaaa, Baaa??? Please explain!

Perfect! BHB is going to put on a " Let's Sheep Talk" (as apposed to "Let's Talk Sheep") seminar at the next WSSBC AGM:smile:.

SSS

[BCrams]

Perfect! BHB is going to put on a " Let's Sheep Talk" (as apposed to "Let's Talk Sheep") seminar at the next WSSBC AGM:smile:.

SSS

Sign me up!!

[bighornbob]

Sign me up!!

Oh, like you will be allowed to go:eek:

If you are allowed, I got a room for you on the first night. Will have to share with SSS, but that wont be a problem as you two like to get cozy. I will even bury a few EatMore's in the back yard to make you guys feel at home:-P

BHB

[newhunterette]

HELLO

I believe I put my dibs in for that there big ram and being the lady I think y'all should just bow graciously and teach me how to talk to them sheep

hehehehehehehe

[Crazy_Farmer]

Saw him too on saturday as we were heading back down from clinton. I even had a sheep tag too dammit :mrgreen:

I agree with the traffic comment, when we watched him he ran across the road about 50 feet infront of a fully loaded semi trailer.
http://members.shaw.ca/stevensml/hunting/sheep.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/stevensml/hunting/sheep2.jpg

[Bighorn hunter]

Hey bighornbob, could you post up a pic from up close? I can only get 6 yrs out of him

[Crazy_Farmer]

May be a different one but this is one of the best ones I took of the rings.

http://members.shaw.ca/stevensml/hunting/sheep3_800x600.jpg

[Bighorn hunter]

Thanks Crazy Farmer, this ram looks 6 to me?

BHH

[Kody94]

A lot of guys would drop that hammer on that ram, thinking he'll squeak
by.

Looks at least 7 to me.

Cheers

[Huey]

I'd be passing on this one.... Not a chance for me! The most I got him at is 6.5yrs

[mark]

A lot of guys would drop that hammer on that ram, thinking he'll squeak
by.

Looks at least 7 to me.

Cheers

How do you figure hes even close??? Gotta be over the breach for spences area!

Do to his popularity and this post, I assume he'll be dead at fist light on sept. 10, 2009!

[Kody94]

How do you figure hes even close??? Gotta be over the breach for spences area!

Do to his popularity and this post, I assume he'll be dead at fist light on sept. 10, 2009!

My bad....I was thinking full curl bighorn, not mature bighorn (bridge of nose)...I don't hunt Spences!

I agree on your second point too. ;)

[calvin L]

Big Horn Bob I feel so cheep and used ! You will pimp out my half of the room for drunken sheep talk ! I am disapointed in you uncle bob . As I have started to work on Kim for that weekend as an outting for my self . I gess I could put my tent in the back yard . With your dogs help (I can't spell is fing name )we can beat the to love birds to the eatmores :tongue:

calvin L

[Stone Sheep Steve]

May be a different one but this is one of the best ones I took of the rings.

http://members.shaw.ca/stevensml/hunting/sheep3_800x600.jpg


Thanks for the extra pic.
I was able to zoom in and it looks like he's 8 1/2:shock:.

SSS

[Ambush]

[quote=Stone Sheep Steve;344921]Thanks for the extra pic.
I was able to zoom in and it looks like he's 8 1/2:shock:

Are you seeing [or assuming] a ring between 6:00 and 9:00 o'clock?

Maybe one of you can repost the picture and add the little white arrows pointing out the rings. Any body that's not on there way to Spences Bridge that is.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This is an instance where Willy442's technique there the first visible annuli is 3 (the one @ 9:00) but if you use this technique don't forget to stop at the last visible annuli. He's broomed just above the 1 1/2 yr annuli ....it's just visible about 1" from the tip.

I don't have the computer skills like BCrams...maybe he can do it overnight.

Bedtime..................

SSS

[Dirty]

How far away from the highway does he have to be?

[bigwhiteys]

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/bighornage.jpg

[mark]

If he was in a full curl area, I would dump him! If he is 8 years old Im pretty sure you could of got within bow range, Maybe knife??? But as of darkness tonight hes safe for another year, probably get hit by a car anyway!

[BCrams]

In my own mind, I am willing to say the ram is 8.5 but given hunting conditions, I would be a mighty nervous hunter deciding to pull the pin on him or not based on age. To me, it wouldn't be worth it.

Bigwhiteys has identified the same spot I would be calling the 8 yr mark ....but to me the photo just didn't cut it for me to mark it for hunting purposes.

The reason I stuck with 7.5 from the photo is due to the amount of growth reduction from the 7.5 to 8.5 which would appear to be out of sync with overal horn growth reduction for each year.

Anyone would be taking a mighty big chance hoping the ram was legal if someone dropped the hammer on him from any distance.

Therefore - you'd be a better hunter to let this ram walk until next year

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/sheep3_800x600.jpg

[bigwhiteys]

In my own mind, I am willing to say the ram is 8.5 but given hunting conditions, I would be a mighty nervous hunter deciding to pull the pin on him or not based on age. To me, it wouldn't be worth it.

I went with 8.5 based on the fact that he's sporting some pretty thick hair at his bases and does show some fairly new growth. Holding off would likely be a sound decision as there isn't any room for error...

I am pretty sure I have video of this ram (and another) from last year... I'll have to go back and look at the footage.

Carl

[Ambush]

Thanks guys. You are fast and skilled. I certainly would not have givin him 3 years at 9:00 O'clock. It may sound funny but, if you look at the cubic inches of horn growth between 3:00 and 4:00, you have credited him way less growth between 2:00 and 3:00.
What you have called ring #3 I would have called #2
I think the bulge [ring] just above the brooming is #1
From here I can only get seven[1/2]
If I was standing there with an arrow on the string I might try harder! http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[boxhitch]

Interesting thing about growth rates.
They happen the greatest at the prime of life.
Does an 8 yr old kid put on as much size as a 14 yr old ?
Good markings , BCR
Maybe a closeup with a good flash would show up another ring at the base.
Need to compare with others for 8th year growth rate.

[One Shot]

What is the silver tag on his horn?
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/20081017_0299.JPG

I paid the F&G Dept. to put my name on it in reserve for when he's legal.:tongue:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Didn't Willy mention that there is usually an annuli where the dark new growth starts???(just like Carl marked)

Stringfling...normally I would call that first easilly visible 2 1/2. Using that technique you would continue counting right to the base.....but using willy's technique by calling it 3 you must stop counting at the last visible annuli.
They both give the same results....but you need to know where to stop counting. This is where Mark IV erred.

BTW---there is no way I would pull the pin on that ram. I've proven to myself that I need 2 years for error. Field conditions are waaaay tougher.

So anyone got any guesses on score?? Looks like he drops down below the jaw pretty good. It would be nice for a head-on shot to help with guessing a score. Anyone got one??

SSS

[Bighorn hunter]

In my own mind, I am willing to say the ram is 8.5 but given hunting conditions, I would be a mighty nervous hunter deciding to pull the pin on him or not based on age. To me, it wouldn't be worth it.

Bigwhiteys has identified the same spot I would be calling the 8 yr mark ....but to me the photo just didn't cut it for me to mark it for hunting purposes.

The reason I stuck with 7.5 from the photo is due to the amount of growth reduction from the 7.5 to 8.5 which would appear to be out of sync with overal horn growth reduction for each year.

Anyone would be taking a mighty big chance hoping the ram was legal if someone dropped the hammer on him from any distance.

Therefore - you'd be a better hunter to let this ram walk until next year

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/sheep3_800x600.jpg

I would half to disagree with tha majority on this one. To me there doesn't seem to be enough growth between the 2nd and 3rd rings. I would half to call the 3rd yr 2 making him 6.5.

but what do I know, I'm just a carpenter
BHH

[Kody94]

In my own mind, I am willing to say the ram is 8.5 but given hunting conditions, I would be a mighty nervous hunter deciding to pull the pin on him or not based on age. To me, it wouldn't be worth it.

Bigwhiteys has identified the same spot I would be calling the 8 yr mark ....but to me the photo just didn't cut it for me to mark it for hunting purposes.

The reason I stuck with 7.5 from the photo is due to the amount of growth reduction from the 7.5 to 8.5 which would appear to be out of sync with overal horn growth reduction for each year.

Anyone would be taking a mighty big chance hoping the ram was legal if someone dropped the hammer on him from any distance.

Therefore - you'd be a better hunter to let this ram walk until next year

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/sheep3_800x600.jpg

That is zactly how I saw it....a ram in that kind of condition living the high-life in Spences should have grown a fair bit this season...I wanted to see a growth ring after your "7", but I wouldn't chance it either. Another growth ring between there and the base would have meant he had a poor year last year and an even worse summer/fall so far.

Cheers
4Ster

[bigwhiteys]

I would half to disagree with tha majority on this one. To me there doesn't seem to be enough growth between the 2nd and 3rd rings. I would half to call the 3rd yr 2 making him 6.5.

Once you understand their growth patterns picking out the 3rd year ring becomes obvious.

If you called him 6.5 to be on the safe side there is nothing wrong with that. On this ram there is no room for error... For that reason alone I'd watch him and keep hunting.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What?? No guesses on the score???

Here's a hint....his bases are over 16":shock:.


SSS

[BCrams]

What?? No guesses on the score???

Here's a hint....his bases are over 16":shock:.


SSS


Awww he's dead ....

I don't know bighorns too well but I'll out on a limb and call 180"

[bighornbob]

Well I would hate to break it to you all but you all are missing a ring. I have 150 pics taken from Thursday to saturday and watched him for over three hours from a distance of 100m down to 6 feet.

His 1 year ring is about where his brooming is. The first visable ring what BC rams is calling 3 is actually his second ring. A three year old ram has way more mass then that. I am basing this on the fact I was also watching and taking pics of 2 and 3 year old rams. You also have to remember in that area a 2 year old will have close to 12-15 inches of growth. A 1 1/2 year old ram has bases about the same as this guy does at about his brooming place.

The rest of the rings are right until the last one. Between BCRams 7 and 7 1/2 line there is another ring. It is just above the dark coloring of horn. I have a few pics that I will try and post tonight that better shows it. I snapped 3-4 pics off pretty quick when he was turning his head and you can see the line start at the side and continue to the front of the horn.

This also lends it self with others saying that the space between annuli should be decreasing as the ram is getting older.

So the ram is eight or 8 1/2 and legal.

If you called this ram 6 or 7 that is fine as you would never be able to count that last ring under real hunting situations. Like I said I was watching the ram for hours from about 100m with the spotter on 45 power. You basically have to catch the horn from all angles and different light settings. I quick snap shot of the side does not give you a good view.

Like I said earlier I jumped two rams still hunting in some timber. The big guy stared at me and I knew by size he was at least 6 years old. When he turned his head and started walking away and kept looking back, counting rings past 5 years, through the 10X binos or my 10X scope was next to impossible.

If you would not shoot this ram you made the right call.

On score I guess he has 16 1/8 bases and scores around the 180 mark:wink:

BHB

[BCrams]

I don't know bighorns like I do stone's ...

Can you post up the pics of the other angles.

We both agree right around the brooming is the 1/2 - 1 yr mark.

But if you call what I have the 3 as being 2 .... then he would be a 7.5 year old ram and not 8.5 ...... and that would be including the mark between 7 and 7.5

I figured there was another ring between the 7 and 7.5 but from the photo I wasn't 100% confident (bigwhiteys called it as I suspected).







Well I would hate to break it to you all but you all are missing a ring. I have 150 pics taken from Thursday to saturday and watched him for over three hours from a distance of 100m down to 6 feet.

His 1 year ring is about where his brooming is. The first visable ring what BC rams is calling 3 is actually his second ring. A three year old ram has way more mass then that. I am basing this on the fact I was also watching and taking pics of 2 and 3 year old rams. You also have to remember in that area a 2 year old will have close to 12-15 inches of growth. A 1 1/2 year old ram has bases about the same as this guy does at about his brooming place.

The rest of the rings are right until the last one. Between BCRams 7 and 7 1/2 line there is another ring. It is just above the dark coloring of horn. I have a few pics that I will try and post tonight that better shows it. I snapped 3-4 pics off pretty quick when he was turning his head and you can see the line start at the side and continue to the front of the horn.

This also lends it self with others saying that the space between annuli should be decreasing as the ram is getting older.

So the ram is eight or 8 1/2 and legal.

If you called this ram 6 or 7 that is fine as you would never be able to count that last ring under real hunting situations. Like I said I was watching the ram for hours from about 100m with the spotter on 45 power. You basically have to catch the horn from all angles and different light settings. I quick snap shot of the side does not give you a good view.

Like I said earlier I jumped two rams still hunting in some timber. The big guy stared at me and I knew by size he was at least 6 years old. When he turned his head and started walking away and kept looking back, counting rings past 5 years, through the 10X binos or my 10X scope was next to impossible.

If you would not shoot this ram you made the right call.

On score I guess he has 16 1/8 bases and scores around the 180 mark:wink:

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Cheaters!!

Yes, he's dead....but he did not get shot on the side of the hwy......but they did get him home in one piece.

There is an annuli right at the dark new growth....as BHB mentioned. Too bad there isn't a field pic with BHB holding the ram:???:.

Err on the side of caution as many people did.

SSS

[MattB]

I didnt have the balls to pull the trigger on him, if this is the same ram i am thinking of...

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v615/matthew_brown69/?action=view&current=P1020439.flv

http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v341/223/99/566330004/n566330004_4497566_9949.jpg

http://photos-e.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v341/223/99/566330004/n566330004_4497564_8087.jpg

[Kody94]

Well I would hate to break it to you all but you all are missing a ring. I have 150 pics taken from Thursday to saturday and watched him for over three hours from a distance of 100m down to 6 feet.

His 1 year ring is about where his brooming is. The first visable ring what BC rams is calling 3 is actually his second ring. A three year old ram has way more mass then that. I am basing this on the fact I was also watching and taking pics of 2 and 3 year old rams. You also have to remember in that area a 2 year old will have close to 12-15 inches of growth. A 1 1/2 year old ram has bases about the same as this guy does at about his brooming place.

The rest of the rings are right until the last one. Between BCRams 7 and 7 1/2 line there is another ring. It is just above the dark coloring of horn. I have a few pics that I will try and post tonight that better shows it. I snapped 3-4 pics off pretty quick when he was turning his head and you can see the line start at the side and continue to the front of the horn.

This also lends it self with others saying that the space between annuli should be decreasing as the ram is getting older.

So the ram is eight or 8 1/2 and legal.

If you called this ram 6 or 7 that is fine as you would never be able to count that last ring under real hunting situations. Like I said I was watching the ram for hours from about 100m with the spotter on 45 power. You basically have to catch the horn from all angles and different light settings. I quick snap shot of the side does not give you a good view.

Like I said earlier I jumped two rams still hunting in some timber. The big guy stared at me and I knew by size he was at least 6 years old. When he turned his head and started walking away and kept looking back, counting rings past 5 years, through the 10X binos or my 10X scope was next to impossible.

If you would not shoot this ram you made the right call.

On score I guess he has 16 1/8 bases and scores around the 180 mark:wink:

BHB

I can't quite figger that...maybe you could 'splain me again, but slower... :)

How did you subtract one year (calling the first obvious ring 2 yo instead of 3), then add one year (a difficult to see annulus near base, between BCRams "7" and "7.5"), and still come out at 8.5?

[Lil Buck]

Matt B the last ram in your video I think I would wak nice ram.Prob 175ish
Walks like an older ram perhaps 8-9 ..
Nice video job

[bigwhiteys]

I figured there was another ring between the 7 and 7.5 but from the photo I wasn't 100% confident (bigwhiteys called it as I suspected).

The "pie" between his 6 and 7 year should be larger then the "pie" between his 7 and the base not smaller as the horn growth slows down. The ram looks pretty healthy.... heavy, broomed, late cape, some dark fresh growth... Easier to call here then in the field... I still don't know Bighorns (horns) well enough to shoot based on age... I'd go on Curl.

Congrats to whoever killed him if it's in fact true.

Carl

[MattB]

Matt B the last ram in your video I think I would wak nice ram.Prob 175ish
Walks like an older ram perhaps 8-9 ..
Nice video job
We got within 60 yards, but there were too many pine in the way to age them and they spooked. I got up to 7.5 on the bigger heavier ram, but there was no way i was even gonna shoot a ram based on age :wink:

[Huey]

Man, i thought you guys were just jokin around that he'd been shot. When was he taken? Last night, last light? I'd be very interested to here what the CI ages this ''mature'' ram.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Man, i thought you guys were just jokin around that he'd been shot. When was he taken? Last night, last light? I'd be very interested to here what the CI ages this ''mature'' ram.

He's definitely 8yrs old...and it wasn't just me that aged him(someone with much more experience and was taught by the bio that is currently doing the training of the CIs).........but it might depend on which inspector inspects him.

Actually, from what I understand, this ram will most likely have to be handed over the the regional bio for inspection since he's broomed. The CI's are only allowed to count the rings that they actually see.

I measured his bases and got 16 1/8" but did not measure the rest. IIRC was told he went about 39 1/2".

SSS

[Huey]

He's definitely 8yrs old...and it wasn't just me that aged him(someone with much more experience and was taught by the bio that is currently doing the training of the CIs).........but it might depend on which inspector inspects him.
Actually, from what I understand, this ram will most likely have to be handed over the the regional bio for inspection since he's broomed. The CI's are only allowed to count the rings that they actually see.
I measured his bases and got 16 1/8 but did not measure the rest. IIRC was told he went about 39 1/2
SSS
Then I owe an appology for being cynical. I'm still a student of sheep aging, and got a ways to go to yet before hunting down first ram... so what do I know!? Congrats to the hunter/hunters!
I'm glad he's not going to be just a stain on the highway!

[boxhitch]

Big Horn Bob I feel so cheep and used ! You will pimp out my half of the room for drunken sheep talk !
calvin L
The sounds should be entertaining, but I can't wait to see the costumes !

[Kody94]

He's definitely 8yrs old...and it wasn't just me that aged him(someone with much more experience and was taught by the bio that is currently doing the training of the CIs).........but it might depend on which inspector inspects him.

Actually, from what I understand, this ram will most likely have to be handed over the the regional bio for inspection since he's broomed. The CI's are only allowed to count the rings that they actually see.

I measured his bases and got 16 1/8" but did not measure the rest. IIRC was told he went about 39 1/2".

SSS

Using BCRams lines and adding one closer to the base, I can see that it would be 8.5. I don't have an issue with that, assuming the ring that I can't see in the picture is there.

Curious though SSS, when you aged it in person, did you call the rings the same as in BCRams drawing?

I am not surprised about the bases at all, but I would never have guessed it at 39 1/2" on the curl!! I guess its a lot droopier than it appears in 2D photos! Explains the 180 score too, which I would not have guessed either (I guessed it at no more than 36/7" length and down to 9/10" circ by the 3rd quarter....a 170'ish ram).

Cheers
4Ster

[blackbart]

This particular thread causes me some concern. With all of the new hunters and potential future sheep hunters reading the attached material I am concerned that certain elements of "sheep hunting" are completely absent.

Here goes my particular rant:
Shooting a ram in proximety to a highway or urban environment is not a measure of success as a sheep hunter, regardless of final score, legality or taxidermy displayed on a wall in the future.

Sheep hunting is about spending time in the mountains observing nature and wildlife in their natural environment. It is not about counting rings from a pickup window within spitting distance of a bar and then waiting for a particular ram to cross the line into a legal shooting zone.

Although the information included about how to age a ram is excellent material, the new sheep hunters observing this thread need to understand that in a true hunting environment it would be impossible to accurately age this particular ram at 8 years plus. Granted taking digital photo's from a truck window and then blowing them up and counting rings worked in this case it makes for a pretty poor story to tell around the campfire.

We as hunters need to be aware of the public perception that comes from this behaviour. In order to protect our future sheep hunting rights it is everyone's responsibility to conduct themselves in an ethical fashion that promotes the essence of sheep hunting. Please note that this does not mean the bare legal minimum requirements. Jow blow urban tourist taking pictures of a ram one minute and then watching someone pull up in a pickup and shoot it will not result in increased sheep hunting opportunities in the future.

[ElectricDyck]

Shooting a ram in proximety to a highway or urban environment is not a measure of success as a sheep hunter, regardless of final score, legality or taxidermy displayed on a wall in the future.

Sheep hunting is about spending time in the mountains observing nature and wildlife in their natural environment. It is not about counting rings from a pickup window within spitting distance of a bar and then waiting for a particular ram to cross the line into a legal shooting zone.


From what I hear glassing from the highway is a frequently used and effective method of spot and stalk in that area. I would guess sheep hunting is about different things to different people.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This particular thread causes me some concern. With all of the new hunters and potential future sheep hunters reading the attached material I am concerned that certain elements of "sheep hunting" are completely absent.

Here goes my particular rant:
Shooting a ram in proximety to a highway or urban environment is not a measure of success as a sheep hunter, regardless of final score, legality or taxidermy displayed on a wall in the future.

Sheep hunting is about spending time in the mountains observing nature and wildlife in their natural environment. It is not about counting rings from a pickup window within spitting distance of a bar and then waiting for a particular ram to cross the line into a legal shooting zone.

Although the information included about how to age a ram is excellent material, the new sheep hunters observing this thread need to understand that in a true hunting environment it would be impossible to accurately age this particular ram at 8 years plus. Granted taking digital photo's from a truck window and then blowing them up and counting rings worked in this case it makes for a pretty poor story to tell around the campfire.

We as hunters need to be aware of the public perception that comes from this behaviour. In order to protect our future sheep hunting rights it is everyone's responsibility to conduct themselves in an ethical fashion that promotes the essence of sheep hunting. Please note that this does not mean the bare legal minimum requirements. Jow blow urban tourist taking pictures of a ram one minute and then watching someone pull up in a pickup and shoot it will not result in increased sheep hunting opportunities in the future.

While I love hunting sheep for my own reasons(many of the same reasons as you), this ram was not shot near a hwy or an urban environment(unless you call a "sheep camp" an urban environment). These pics were taken in such an area but sheep can travel up a mtn pretty quick.

I have a few animals that adorn my walls....some came easy, some came hard. Some mean more TO ME than others.

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Using BCRams lines and adding one closer to the base, I can see that it would be 8.5. I don't have an issue with that, assuming the ring that I can't see in the picture is there.

Curious though SSS, when you aged it in person, did you call the rings the same as in BCRams drawing?

I am not surprised about the bases at all, but I would never have guessed it at 39 1/2" on the curl!! I guess its a lot droopier than it appears in 2D photos! Explains the 180 score too, which I would not have guessed either (I guessed it at no more than 36/7" length and down to 9/10" circ by the 3rd quarter....a 170'ish ram).

Cheers
4Ster

Actually BCR doesn't have it quite right this time.:???:

Closest is Carl.

The lambtip 6 month annuli is long gone

There is a 1 1/2 yr annuli about 1" down from the tip on one side. It's broomed completely off on the other side.

The annuli that BCR has marked as 2 is not there.

The next annuli is where BCR has it marked 3 but I count it as 2 1/2(Carl has it marked 3 but he stops counting at the last annuli and not the base... therefore we get the same results)


From there the annuli are identified properly and there is definitley an annuli right where the new dark growth starts....which I would call 7 1/2.

I continue counting to the base as 8 1/2.

I'll try to re-mark it later from home. Describing it most likely makes it more confusing:???:.


SSS

[Kody94]

Thanks for the reply SSS.

I am still a little confused though...a drawing would help. Actually, it probably wouldn't...I am having trouble with the tips being broomed off near 1.5 years (effectively the rams 2nd birthday or 2 years the way I prefer to count). That would mean its entire lamb tip and all but an inch of its second growth season are gone. The tips just don't look that big to me....but I also don't think it looks 39.5"...so maybe it is just way bigger in person.

Cheers
4Ster

[BCrams]

Actually BCR doesn't have it quite right this time.:???:

Closest is Carl.

The lambtip 6 month annuli is long gone

There is a 1 1/2 yr annuli about 1" down from the tip on one side. It's broomed completely off on the other side.

The annuli that BCR has marked as 2 is not there.

You're right. I failed to look at the other horn which shows 'clean' growth.

The next annuli is where BCR has it marked 3 but I count it as 2 1/2(Carl has it marked 3 but he stops counting at the last annuli and not the base... therefore we get the same results)

We're both right on this count. 2 1/2 (end of summer / early fall) is the front of the ring whereas the 3 is the end of the ring (after the winter)

From there the annuli are identified properly and there is definitley an annuli right where the new dark growth starts....which I would call 7 1/2.

I suspected this but did not mark it. It is indeed 7 1/2 but also 8 after the ring and then the extra 1/2 year growth to the base for 8.5

I continue counting to the base as 8 1/2.

I'll try to re-mark it later from home. Describing it most likely makes it more confusing:???:.


SSS

Over all my error stems with the 2 and the broomed portion of the ram ...... as 1 1/2 but I can see on the other horn in another picture which I should have looked at.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/20081017_0299.jpg

[newhunterette]

with all this sheep aging I think y'all are getting a little ****y hehehehe had to bleep my word didn't want to have my hands slapped

[Kody94]

Over all my error stems with the 2 and the broomed portion of the ram ...... as 1 1/2 but I can see on the other horn in another picture which I should have looked at.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/20081017_0299.jpg

I dunno...that circle still looks like the annuli at the base of the lamb tip to me. I have trouble seeing it growing just a few inches in length and having a 3" base after its first two growing seasons, only to then grow nearly 12" in length and form a 10 or 11" base all in its 3rd growing season.

[boxhitch]

Lets see a picture of a three or four year old from the same herd.



I suspected this but did not mark it. It is indeed 7 1/2 but also 8 after the ring and then the extra 1/2 year growth to the base for 8.5

I continue counting to the base as 8 1/2.


I'm with Ali.

[CT.45]

I personally have not seen this sheep. My first post about staking it out was BS. Who got it? Let's have the details!!!

[boxhitch]

Theres lots of confusion added when talking about the 1/2 year. The space between two rings is one year, no more no less. The space at the base after the last ring, is the growth in the last growing season, so August or Sept would be about 6 months.
The lamb tip is the growth in the first year, indicated by the first ring.

[CT.45]

I don't think anyone is getting $hitty here. I think that sheep aging for the purpose of legally harvesting a ram is a very important and it is rarely easy.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's a clearer view of the bases.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Spences_Ram_002.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10899)

SSS

[BCrams]

yep ... thats a ring starting where it gets dark!

[CT.45]

So, who harvested it? Any details on the hunt?

[Huey]

I don't think anyone is getting $hitty here. I think that sheep aging for the purpose of legally harvesting a ram is a very important and it is rarely easy.
Ali was simply trying to lighten the mood. I'm pretty confident she meant HORNY.

[newhunterette]

Ali was simply trying to lighten the mood. I'm pretty confident she meant HORNY.

dang it Scott, you know me too well shhhhhhhhh

give a hug to that darlin son of yours and one to Dorothy too - tell her time to get with the flow and get her CORE

[CT.45]

oh, totally misread that, no wonder I didn't get the joke

[PGK]

So he does age 8.5 then? The last full ring in the pic posted by SSS makes 8, and the almost complete ring makes 8.5? Someone either shot first and counted later, or got really freakin close to be able to see those rings.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So he does age 8.5 then? The last full ring in the pic posted by SSS makes 8, and the almost complete ring makes 8.5? Someone either shot first and counted later, or got really freakin close to be able to see those rings.

Considering he was born in May and shot on the last day of the season....I would give him the complete 1/2 yr:wink:.

Call him 8 or 8 1/2 yrs makes no difference for legal purposes. He got that last visible annuli last winter before the turned 8 this spring.

SSS

[budismyhorse]

Hey SSS, that is a very cool pic, thanks for sharing that.

But I gotta say it is confusing me like crazy.

Aren't the sheep heading into the time when the annual rings are formed...ie the winter? meaning that ring just above the black zone above the hairline was put down last winter?

I am including a drawing to get my point across.

which one is it the top drawing or the bottom?
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Spences_Ram_0021.jpg

[bighornbob]

I will try and post some pics tonight of the live sheep. I will also post some 1 1/2, 2 1/2 and 4 1/2 year old rams as well and then it will make it easier for a lot of the guys.

Next year I am taking my bow to Spences:-P:-P

BHB

[BCrams]

The photo image now makes it really clear regarding the final ring.

Its the bottom one.

The beginning of your 8 is 8 yrs while the growth to the base is the .5 hence 8.5 yr old ram.

The ring on the edge of the dark zone indeed was put down last winter.



Hey SSS, that is a very cool pic, thanks for sharing that.

But I gotta say it is confusing me like crazy.

Aren't the sheep heading into the time when the annual rings are formed...ie the winter? meaning that ring just above the black zone above the hairline was put down last winter?

I am including a drawing to get my point across.

which one is it the top drawing or the bottom?
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Spences_Ram_0021.jpg

[bighornbob]

So he does age 8.5 then? The last full ring in the pic posted by SSS makes 8, and the almost complete ring makes 8.5? Someone either shot first and counted later, or got really freakin close to be able to see those rings.

I knew that ram was 8 on friday afternoon and I would have shot him if I saw him anywhere but in town. But I did watch him for awhile and I know what to look for.

BHB

[PGK]

Got bigger balls than me :D I'd be scared shitless of shooting anything like that then posting it here.

[budismyhorse]

THanks Rams, I guess that growth rate is acceptable given a steady decline when the ram hits maturity.

My stone has a similar ring and the CI didn't give it credit.I'll post up pictures one of these days.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I knew that ram was 8 on friday afternoon and I would have shot him if I saw him anywhere but in town. But I did watch him for awhile and I know what to look for.

BHB

Surprized you didn't try to lure him out of town by talking to him.
I'm going to call you "Sheep Whisperer" from now on.:-D

You've got too many books on the wall already....should have been looking for a Cali on the last day.


SSS

[bighornbob]

You've got too many books on the wall already....should hve been looking for a Cali on the last day.


SSS

I went and looked for a Cali on the Thursday and no luck there. Wanted to head to spences and try and find that ram that gave me the slip on the last day last year.


Surprized you didn't try to lure him out of town by talking to him.
I'm going to call you "Sheep Whisperer" from now on.:-D

SSS

When I snapped a pic from 6 feet away, I was thinking of grabbing my tow rope and attaching it to my mirrow and tossing the other end over his horns and hit the gas. I figured by the time I got to the end of town, he would have been ground down to about the shoulder mount stage and he would have been easy to chuck in the back of the truck:mrgreen:

BHB

[BCrams]

When I snapped a pic from 6 feet away, I was thinking of grabbing my tow rope and attaching it to my mirrow and tossing the other end over his horns and hit the gas. I figured by the time I got to the end of town, he would have been ground down to about the shoulder mount stage and he would have been easy to chuck in the back of the truck:mrgreen:

BHB

Road hunter. Wasn't FD riding shotgun? :lol:

[bighornbob]

Road hunter. Wasn't FD riding shotgun? :lol:

He got tired of the sheep after 10 minutes, I dropped him off Log Cabin Pub, he was mumbling something about meeting a friend there.:razz:

BHB

[Kody94]

The photo image now makes it really clear regarding the final ring.

The beginning of your 8 is 8 yrs while the growth to the base is the .5 hence 8.5 yr old ram.

The ring on the edge of the dark zone indeed was put down last winter.

I agree that it is a real age ring. Thanks for the pic SSS.

Maybe I am denser than usual today but I am still confused how the ring just below the broom is 1.5 (=2) years and not 0.5 (=1) years.

[The Hermit]

We saw hat herd on Sunday on the way home from the moose hunt too. He was way off the highway, they were all running down the hillside.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I agree that it is a real age ring. Thanks for the pic SSS.

Maybe I am denser than usual today but I am still confused how the ring just below the broom is 1.5 (=2) years and not 0.5 (=1) years.

I guess we need some pics of bighorn lamb rams during their first winter to show how long their horns are.

SSSSter- you live in bighorn country...think about the lambs you've seen during their first winter.

Would also be helpful to see some pics of rams that are 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 like BHB promised.

For Stones......they are never over two inches long..more likey closer to an inch. Think about how thick the horn is at that point.

BCrams has a text book that has pics of young rams. They helped me quite a bit.

SSS

[smoke-eater]

Some close pics of a 6 month old BH and others...... hope these help

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/efdkelly/061.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/efdkelly/071.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/efdkelly/057.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/efdkelly/081.jpg

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg203/efdkelly/076-1.jpg

[CT.45]

Other than the lambs, are they one 3 yrs, and the last 2 pics are the same ram @ 5?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Are those more Cadomin pics?? If so, they don't grow any bigger.... anywhere in N America.... even if our winters in the southern interior are easier.

I had my Cali inspected by Kathy Lacey who worked at the Penticton Game Farm for many years. They had captive, wild sheep(an oxymoron I know:?) so .....if anyone knows how big a ram can get in it's first year it's her.

My ram had almost identical brooming to the ram from Spences and was aged at 8 1/2....even if it's a heap smaller:?.

I'll dig up a pic.

SSS

[smoke-eater]

EK sheep.....

[Kody94]

SSS,
Here is a pic of a 2 year old bighorn, ID'd by Marco Fiesta-Bianchet (its from his website).

http://pages.usherbrooke.ca/mfesta/youngram.jpg

[BCrams]

Here's the young ram.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/youngram.jpg

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Excellent.

Always helps to know what time of year the pic was taken....

Now think of how heavy that Spences ram is where he's broomed.....and think of the space to the first really visible annuli. Safe to say that the first easilly visible annuli is 2 1/2?? The best growth usually occurs from 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 years....at least from what I've seen.

It would be nice to see a close up of the 2 1/2 yr old ram to see where his 1 1/2 annuli is. Safe to say it is closer to the tip than it is to the middle....say in the 4-7" range??

Here's the pics of my Cali that I mentioned.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_001.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10904)

There's an annuli visible just at the bottom of the curl which is 1 1/2.
Here's apic of the inside of the horn which helps.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_002.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10905)



Nest annuli is at about 9:00...2 1/2

Other side which is broomed pretty much at the 1 1/2 annuli....not really visible

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_003.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10906)

Other than the size this rams ages pretty much like the Spences ram.

Note the annuli right at the dark new growth.

As soon as you see the first visible annuli has some decent girth to it, it's usually the 1 1/2 yr annuli.
For a ram to be broomed back past the 2 1/2 annuli, takes some serious brooming!!

It doesn't take much to broom off their lambtips. Lambtip annuli(6 months) aren't usually easy to see...although that isn't a golden rule.

SSS

[Kody94]

BCRams,

I agree, although I think the nub might have been a little longer. I see the same 1.5/2 year ring as you...if the Spences ram had similar growth, I really don't see how it was broomed off to just shy of that point.

For about 5 years I had an office where ewes, lambs and young rams would often be eeding just a few feet from my window (the window ws ground level, and the grass was was shoulders height when I was standing at the window)...it was fascinating.

The two year old rams (or at least what looked like it to me) always had horns close to 12" long.


Cheers
4Ster

[BCrams]

I'm not concentrating ..

Here's that nub just an inch or so further along .. no more.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/youngram-1.jpg

[Stone Sheep Steve]

BCRams,

I agree, although I think the nub might have been a little longer. I see the same 1.5/2 year ring as you...if the Spences ram had similar growth, I really don't see how it was broomed off to just shy of that point.

Cheers
4Ster

Brooming up to the 1 1/2 yr annuli (and a little beyond) is feasible but brooming up to the 2 1/2 yr annuli is a pretty good stretch.

SSS

[Kody94]

Brooming up to the 1 1/2 yr annuli (and a little beyond) is feasible but brooming up to the 2 1/2 yr annuli is a pretty good stretch.

SSS

I agree. I just have trouble seeing that the Spences ram in question has broomed as far as the 1.5 year annuli....it just doesn't seem to have enough circumference at that point. But pictures are tough.

I will finally put up a couple pics of my stone (which I have said I would do a number of times now) just to illustrate how large the lamb tip is (it is very clear) and where 1.5 yo is.

I will post clean ones for BCRams to work his majic on, should he so desire. :)

Cheers
4ster

[Kody94]

I'm not concentrating ..

Here's that nub just an inch or so further along .. no more.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/youngram-1.jpg

That's where I pictured it. Thanks. :)

[willy442]

This particular thread causes me some concern. With all of the new hunters and potential future sheep hunters reading the attached material I am concerned that certain elements of "sheep hunting" are completely absent.

Here goes my particular rant:
Shooting a ram in proximety to a highway or urban environment is not a measure of success as a sheep hunter, regardless of final score, legality or taxidermy displayed on a wall in the future.

Sheep hunting is about spending time in the mountains observing nature and wildlife in their natural environment. It is not about counting rings from a pickup window within spitting distance of a bar and then waiting for a particular ram to cross the line into a legal shooting zone.

Although the information included about how to age a ram is excellent material, the new sheep hunters observing this thread need to understand that in a true hunting environment it would be impossible to accurately age this particular ram at 8 years plus. Granted taking digital photo's from a truck window and then blowing them up and counting rings worked in this case it makes for a pretty poor story to tell around the campfire.

We as hunters need to be aware of the public perception that comes from this behaviour. In order to protect our future sheep hunting rights it is everyone's responsibility to conduct themselves in an ethical fashion that promotes the essence of sheep hunting. Please note that this does not mean the bare legal minimum requirements. Jow blow urban tourist taking pictures of a ram one minute and then watching someone pull up in a pickup and shoot it will not result in increased sheep hunting opportunities in the future.

Black Bart; Good post I agree totally.

[Kody94]

BCR, SSS;

This is the "short" side. The entire lamb tip is broken off, just a little core of horn that goes up inside the tip remains.



This is the long side. The whole lamb tip is there. It is starting to separate, so you can see just where it ends. You can see why I am still pissed off at the NIMROD CI that plugged it for me (and spilled white glue on it that cannot come off!!!).




I'm not too worried about someone thinking he's not legal age or curl. :D
Cheers
4Ster

[boxhitch]

I'm not concentrating ..

Here's that nub just an inch or so further along .. no more.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/youngram-1.jpg
Looks like a wintery picture. Would guess the third year annuli hasn't formed yet ? I count the first in your pic as 1 yr. the second as 2 yrs. and the rest leads up to his next birthday, maybe 10 months here ?

[Kody94]

My point with this is just that even with a skinny little thinhorn like this (it only has 13 1/8" bases), it still looks as thick to me where the lamb tip is broken off (at the 0.5 or 1 year annulus) as that bighorn does.

The 1.5/2 year annulus is only about 6 inches from the lamb tip...but if it was broomed to that point it would look much thicker at the broomed tip than that bighorn does.

Anyhoo, thanks for indulging me guys...I find this stuff very interesting and always educational.

Cheers
4Ster

[BCrams]

Looks like a wintery picture. Would guess the third year annuli hasn't formed yet ? I count the first in your pic as 1 yr. the second as 2 yrs. and the rest leads up to his next birthday, maybe 10 months here ?

You can call the first one 1/2 or 1. The outcome will be the same. I do it both ways.

[Kody94]

You can call the first one 1/2 or 1. The outcome will be the same. I do it both ways.

Me too, but I tend to prefer the whole number method and add the 1/2 at the base.

Just depends on which side of the annulus your counting. :D

[BCrams]

Easy to age the ram of yours. Stone's definatly have their 1/2 - 1 yr nub shorter.....hence I can see the thinking when it comes to the bighorn ram in question.


My point with this is just that even with a skinny little thinhorn like this (it only has 13 1/8" bases), it still looks as thick to me where the lamb tip is broken off (at the 0.5 or 1 year annulus) as that bighorn does.

The 1.5/2 year annulus is only about 6 inches from the lamb tip...but if it was broomed to that point it would look much thicker at the broomed tip than that bighorn does.

Anyhoo, thanks for indulging me guys...I find this stuff very interesting and always educational.

Cheers
4Ster

[boxhitch]

.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_001.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10904)
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_002.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10905)



http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_003.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10906)

SSSSo why not just call the first visible as '2', the rest as 3,4,5,6,7,8 and the rest to the base as the half ?
Fir all intents, the portion of growth between the winter and the birthday is negligible.

[BCrams]

Me too, but I tend to prefer the whole number method and add the 1/2 at the base.

Just depends on which side of the annulus your counting. :D

When hunting - whole number plus 1/2 at the base

When aging (CI aging) I'll look at both and include the 1/2 marks.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So why not just call the first visible as '2', the rest as 3,4,5,6,7,8 and the rest to the base as the half ?
Fir all intents, the portion of growth between the winter and the birthday is negligible.

As long as we end end up at the same place it makes no difference. Count the "pies" between annuli if you like. Same result.:smile:


SSS

[daycort]

What a dinker ram :roll: :eek:


I was about to say the smae thing!!!

[Kody94]

What a dinker ram :roll: :eek:

The upside of not having kids or being "officially" married is that I don't have to lie about what the best day of my life was so far. :D

I think everyone's pretty clear on that...

Cheers
4Ster

[Bighorn hunter]

Any chance of a head on pic of your ram 4ster? That thing is a pig!

BHH

[BCrams]

lol ... you have that right 4ster!

This has to be one of the biggest (no pun intended) hijacks I have seen.

What bighorn?

[Kody94]

lol ... you have that right 4ster!

This has to be one of the biggest (no pun intended) hijacks I have seen.

What bighorn?

:D My bad, again.

I have broken the links to the pics...just wanted to show you and SSS what I was having trouble understanding. The 1.5 yr annulus on mine is right at the bridge of the nose, and if it was broomed there it looks like it would be heavier there then the bighorn in question...which doesn't make sense to me. Could be a function of looking at pics and not having a real sense of scale.

I am still torn on the bighorn age, and flip flop every time I look at the pics.

Have found this very educational though...thanks to you and SSS for indulging my questions, etc.

Will save my stone pics for other aging discussions in the future. :)

Cheers
4Ster

[Ambush]

Could you please post a picture of the complete horn of this sheep and point out the rings with arrows. I'm still a bit confused and I just love looking at sheep. This sheep is obviously legal, as judged by some very competent people, but I still can't see it.

Thanks. And I would add that this thread should only be hijacked by posting sheep pictures. [lots ands lots of pictures]http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

[bsa30-06]

You guys stay away from my ram!!! I have been watching that guy for 3 years now. Season after next he will be legal and mine!!! ha-ha-ha
I know where he lives when not hanging out on the highway. ha-ha-ha!!!

Yeah the log cabin pub!!!!There were 2 full curls in the parking lot last week.

[Bighorn hunter]

I am surprised to see this thread die so quickly? What was the results of the C.I.?

Bhh

[blackbart]

After reading some related sheep age threads on this site I have to agree with Bighorn hunter. What is the official age as determined by the CI on this particular ram? Either SSS or Bighornbob seems to be in the know on the specific details and can pehaps post the results in order to end the age debate.

I, and perhaps all other current and future sheep hunters on this site would certainly benefit from knowing how the official's aged the ram.

Thank-you for your response.

[6616]

After reading some related sheep age threads on this site I have to agree with Bighorn hunter. What is the official age as determined by the CI on this particular ram? Either SSS or Bighornbob seems to be in the know on the specific details and can pehaps post the results in order to end the age debate.

I, and perhaps all other current and future sheep hunters on this site would certainly benefit from knowing how the official's aged the ram.

Thank-you for your response.

It must be really frustrating and confusing for a novice sheep hunter reading all these various sheep horn threads.

To be a legal 8 year old ram, there simply has to be 8 visible annuli, but this is not as simple as it sounds since the first annulus is really only a bump on the horn, is often invisible or more often completely broomed off.

Thus if you don't worry about the first annulus and count from the second annulus there needs to be seven vivible annuli, but the reality is I would not recommend this. The only safe way to go is to not shoot any rams unless they make the legal definition for horn length as per the diagrams in the regulations.

As you will note from several recent threads, basing a decison to shoot on counting annuli can be the onset of a serious $hit storm of trouble.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If I hear anything further I'll let you know.

SSS

[boxhitch]

would certainly benefit from knowing how the official's aged the ram.


May take awhile. If the local C.I. can't do it, Then the SuperOfficial (or is that OfficialOfficial) has to do the inspection.
To Summerland office ?? or do they do housecalls ?

[budismyhorse]

It must be really frustrating and confusing for a novice sheep hunter reading all these various sheep horn threads.

To be a legal 8 year old ram, there simply has to be 8 visible annuli, but this is not as simple as it sounds since the first annulus is really only a bump on the horn, is often invisible or more often completely broomed off.

Thus if you don't worry about the first annulus and count from the second annulus there needs to be seven vivible annuli, but the reality is I would not recommend this. The only safe way to go is to not shoot any rams unless they make the legal definition for horn length as per the diagrams in the regulations.

As you will note from several recent threads, basing a decison to shoot on counting annuli can be the onset of a serious $hit storm of trouble.

I agree Andy!

So I'll ask a question that may sound dumb to the guys who hunt these rams, but I live in the Koots and our Bighorns cannot be harvested on "age"

sooooooooo with bighorns being difficult to properly age, why can you shoot those bighorns based on age???? what sets these bands of sheep apart? horn growth?

[bighornbob]

I agree Andy!

So I'll ask a question that may sound dumb to the guys who hunt these rams, but I live in the Koots and our Bighorns cannot be harvested on "age"

sooooooooo with bighorns being difficult to properly age, why can you shoot those bighorns based on age???? what sets these bands of sheep apart? horn growth?

Just a few years ago you had to shoot a full curl (like the kootenays) and a ton of sheep were being killed. I remember 37 killed in one year. That is basically from one unit. A lot of these rams were real young, I have heard of more then one 3 year old ram being full curl. So as you can imagine the horn growth in the unit can be awesome.

So to increase the age of the rams killed they went to the Mature Ram regulation (above the nose or 8 years of age). The following year only about 7 rams were killed.

With The regulation it is hoped that the young rams will broom their horns a bit making them not legal until they have at least 6 or 7 years and above the bridge of the nose. The age restriction was brought in so you can still take a old heavily broomed ram that will never break the bridge of the nose.

BHB

[budismyhorse]

makes sense, thanks BHB.

Hopefully the harvest number is working its way back up (to a happy medium) for you guys out there.

....3 year old full curls?!?!? crazy.

[bighornbob]

makes sense, thanks BHB.

Hopefully the harvest number is working its way back up (to a happy medium) for you guys out there.

....3 year old full curls?!?!? crazy.


Its working good in my mind. I saw 5 different rams that were full curl plus, above the eye) and at least 6 years of age. Now if I can only catch up to one that is eight (thats not in town) or above the nose:mrgreen:

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The most important thing that people should get out of this thread is not necessarily "how to age sheep" but more importantly "how difficult it can be to age sheep in field conditions" (particularily bighorns).

Almost everyone here on this forum(no matter how much sheep hunting experience they have had) said they would not drop the hammer on this ram....and the pictures we had of this ram were as ideal as they come. You can't get a whole lot closer in the field(except for BHB in his ewe outfit :p).

I believe during more than one season the "illegal" harvest of rams in 3-17 exceeded the "legal" kill :frown:.

MOE was considering going to LEH but the WSSBC convinced them to leave it the way it was (for now) and push the education aspect....hence the "Horn curl education program"
http://www.wildsheepsociety.org/node/35

I believe that signs have (or will be erected) in the area...maybe BHB knows for sure?

Hunters are still not using "due dilligence" when deciding pulling the pin.
Not only do we owe it to the sheep, we owe it to our fellow hunters of the Province.

http://www.wildsheepsociety.org/node/44

Was this ram given "due dilligence"? I don't know the hunter so I can't answer that one.....with absolute certainty.

When a ram dies over in that country it is almost certain that someone is watching or is within close "earshot".

Last year a guy, who's life is wildlife, watched a ram and aged him at 9yrs(he really knows his sheep)...made a stalk and in the fading daylight shot the ram. Unfortunately, there was another short ram that he didn't see that was only 7yrs old.
He realized his error, took care of the sheep and was going to turn himself in but when he got back to the truck the CO was already there waiting for him. Someone was watching and said told the CO that there was no other 9 yr old ram.

Fine was in the $600+ range IIRC.

There's a lot riding on your decision.

Don't take it lightly.

You can never make a mistake when you err on the side of caution.

SSS

[Flinch]

I don't know the shooter, just the guy who was with him (and is in the pictures)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Spences2.JPG


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Spences1.JPG

[bighornbob]

I believe that signs have (or will be erected) in the area...maybe BHB knows for sure?


Signs were put up on Sept 6 by some handsome looking fella:p One at the bottom of Murrey Creek Rd and the other at the bottom of Botanie Creek FSR. They are 4 foot by 4 foot signs cant miss them.

As SSS has stated the ministry wants/is/was looking at putting this area on LEH if the illegal harvest (less then the bridge of the nose or less then 8 years of age) continues. Like SSS said one year 3 legal rams were taken and 3 illegal rams were taken.

Like the sign says, If in Doubt do not Shoot


BHB

[BCrams]

He must be a bonafide expert at counting rings ...... he sure isn't full curl by a mile.


I don't know the shooter, just the guy who was with him (and is in the pictures)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Spences2.JPG


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Spences1.JPG

[bighornbob]

I don't know the shooter, just the guy who was with him (and is in the pictures)

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Spences2.JPG


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Spences1.JPG


That pale faced hunter is a killing machine, I have seen pictures of him with big elk, moose, mulies and grizzly on here before.:mrgreen::mrgreen:

BHB

[blackbart]

This particular thread continues to provide a wealth of usefull sheep hunting information. Not only has the how to age a ram question been explored in detail, but now we have an answer to some of the ongoing footwear debate that has occurred in the past.

Forget about the Meindl versus Lowa debate. We all need a pair of "vans". Likely easier to find in any department store and probably cost less than the other footwear options.

I now stand firmly behind previous comments about what the escence of sheep hunting should mean. In my mind this is not how sheep hunting should occur. This style of sheep hunt has the potential to put the current GOS season under scrutiny.

As always differing opinion or feedback on this post is welcom.

[boxhitch]

blackbart, that is stuff for another thread.
Where the ethics squads can battle it out.

[boxhitch]

He must be a bonafide expert at counting rings ...... he sure isn't full curl by a mile.
Or maybe a stupid guy got lucky.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I now stand firmly behind previous comments about what the escence of sheep hunting should mean. In my mind this is not how sheep hunting should occur. This style of sheep hunt has the potential to put the current GOS season under scrutiny.


Ever hunt Spences??

Footwear should come as no surprise as I did mention that they got it home whole.

SSS

[6616]

Just a few years ago you had to shoot a full curl (like the kootenays) and a ton of sheep were being killed. I remember 37 killed in one year. That is basically from one unit. A lot of these rams were real young, I have heard of more then one 3 year old ram being full curl. So as you can imagine the horn growth in the unit can be awesome.

So to increase the age of the rams killed they went to the Mature Ram regulation (above the nose or 8 years of age). The following year only about 7 rams were killed.

With The regulation it is hoped that the young rams will broom their horns a bit making them not legal until they have at least 6 or 7 years and above the bridge of the nose. The age restriction was brought in so you can still take a old heavily broomed ram that will never break the bridge of the nose.

BHB

We have a few of those big real old broomed rams in the Koots too Alex, and we have to let them walk and die of old age...

[bighornbob]

This style of sheep hunt has the potential to put the current GOS season under scrutiny.

As always differing opinion or feedback on this post is welcom.

Have you hunted Bighorns in the Spences bridge area or the Kootenays for that fact.

Most times you spot the ram and its a race up the hill. The fastest guy gets the sheep. In a lot of the cases the slower guy tries a stupid far off shot or fires in the air to scare the sheep away. Trust me, I have seen it more times then I care to think about.

this happens when guys have hunted for years and I mean upwards of ten years and have never seen a legal ram. Or they get a LEH after years of not getting one and they feel compelled to kill a sheep.

The days of spotting a band of Bighorn rams sunning themselves on a patch of grass and a hunter casually stalking his prey and observing them from a distance before deciding to shoot are almost non existant. Yes you can still find that up north but down here, good luck. If you know a spot like that, so do the other ten trucks with spotting scopes sticking out windows.

The spences bridge area probably has the most access of any sheep unit also the least access. You have 40km of highway which gives good glassing of large areas. But then you have the river to deal with. Are you willing to walking 15km up or down the river from lyyton or Spences. Do you have a raft or canoe where it saves you the walking but drowning in the river is strong possability. Choose your poison.

But to sum it up, how's that saying go, something about a Gift Horse. For an example my uncle started sheep hunting at around the age of 50 and has taken 4 rams out of the East Koots. His last ram came after he retired from the mine and hunted all season. He would hear a story about a ram somewhere and the next thing you know the quad and travel trailer are heading in that direction. On the 2nd last day of the season he went to a area he knows rams hang out at that time of year. he started glassing and everywhere he looked there were already hunters up the hill 9must have slept on the mountain). All morning he glassed and got frustrated with the amount of hunters in the hills. So he heads for home at 1pm calling it a season.

He's heading down the road and sees 30 sheep crossing the dirt road. With his bear eyes he spots rams at the back, he pins the truck to get closer and bails out at over 200 yards. He drops the ram at the back. His best ram of the 4 and shotten 20m from the road and gutted on the tailgate. Is this ram any differnet then the ones he packed up the hill for days on end. Not in his mind, not in mine or many others. As with most hunting he was in the right place at the right time.

BHB

[MattB]

Ever hunt Spences??

Footwear should come as no surprise as I did mention that they got it home whole.

SSS
Hmm, looks just like the timber we snook up on them in...definetely not tough to get into there.

[bighornbob]

Hmm, looks just like the timber we snook up on them in...definetely not tough to get into there.

And any timber between Chase and Lytton:mrgreen:

BHB

[boxhitch]

We have a few of those big real old broomed rams in the Koots too Alex, and we have to let them walk and die of old age...
Gotta love BC for its diversity.

[BCrams]

Hmm, looks just like the timber we snook up on them in...definetely not tough to get into there.

snook?? :???: :roll:

You're going to "snook" up on a muley in November:lol:

[MattB]

Its a combo of "sneek" and "look"...you know, snook! :wink:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

We have a few of those big real old broomed rams in the Koots too Alex, and we have to let them walk and die of old age...

Didn't they try to throw in a regulation in the Koots regarding age and it turned out to be a flop??? Lots of illegals taken??

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

This style of sheep hunt has the potential to put the current GOS season under scrutiny.



Please explain??

SSS

[ElectricDyck]

Signs were put up on Sept 6 by some handsome looking fella:razz: One at the bottom of Murrey Creek Rd and the other at the bottom of Botanie Creek FSR. They are 4 foot by 4 foot signs cant miss them.

Yep saw it on the way in.

[Bighorn hunter]

Please explain??

SSS

I agree with SSS and some of his earlier comments that some sheep are easier than others. I don't see how any legally taken ram should call for GOS scruteny and possable shut down. It is the illegally taken rams that are really going to hurt us. I really like the way the season is at Spences because it gives us as hunters tha chance of taking a big mature broomed ram that is not otherwise legal. I definatly hope that this ram is legal like some on this site are saying, because the biologists in kamloops don't need any more fuel for their wanting to close the area down.

but like Lil Buck says, what do I know
Bhh

[Stone Sheep Steve]

We have a few of those big real old broomed rams in the Koots too Alex, and we have to let them walk and die of old age...

While hunting Spences a number of years ago, a friend found some rams in the heavy timber. One was legal but he was bedded beside an old heavily-broomed warrior.
He couldn't bring himself to shoot the smaller ram as the old ram dwarfed the youger ram. The old ram was short of being legal so he let them be.

That old ram was found dead the next year and went 191":shock:.
The following hunting season the changed the reg to a "Mature Bighorn" season.
Nothing wrong with letting an old warrior die a "noble, natural death" but he was well past his breeding age when he met his demise.
Personally, I like the Mature regs.....as long as we do our part.



Another story to show what Spences has to offer despite its heavy pressure.................Two friends were hunting there two years ago and spotted a decent ram that they figured was legal. They were debating if he was worth a stalk, when two other hunters appeared on the hillside....one older gray-haired fella and one youger guy. The older guy seemed to be the more "sheep-savy" of the two and was calling the shots.
The younger guy shot the ram and was happier than a pig'n'poop!!

Instead of being jealous, my friends thought it was great to see an older guy still out there hunting sheep and were happy for the other guy.

With Spences', anything can happen at anytime...and offers a relatively close place to chase rams while not burning a pile of holidays or fuel.

Hell, a place like this can even give an old, out of shape, former sheep guide with bad knees some inspiration to get back out and do some glassing for big rams:smile:.

They're there and they know how to hide:cool:.

BUT if you're looking for a wilderness sheep hunting experience for bighorns, try Kakwa.....not Spences':-|.




SSS

[GoatGuy]

We have a few of those big real old broomed rams in the Koots too Alex, and we have to let them walk and die of old age...

Tell me about it! :cry:

I'm glad the education angle is being tackled; there's immense benefit to resident hunters on this one.

Not much opportunity when leh odds on an any ram hunt are from 100:1-400:1. Tough to become a sheep hunter when you'll never get drawn.

[6616]

Didn't they try to throw in a regulation in the Koots regarding age and it turned out to be a flop??? Lots of illegals taken??

SSS

Yes it was full curl or 8 years once and close to half the rams killed were illegal, it was a nightmare and MOE was threatening LEH. It was actually the local clubs who pushed to do away with the age option. The way they look at it is "so what" some old broomed rams die of old age, maybe one can't have his cake and eat it too in all cases...? Going back to an 8 year age option comes up again and again nearly every year and the local clubs soundly shoot it down every time.

Saying that the Koot has a very good sheep population (about 2300) and they are spread over a wide range of habitat from Radium all the way to the USA border, so a mature full curl horn regulation shoudn't be necessary.

It's a good time to note also that hunting sheep in the Koots does not have to be a race up the mountain with only the fastest guy winning the race. It will always be that way in the accessible and popular well known hot-spots, but there are many places in the Koots where a sheep hunter can enjoy a good quality wilderness style sheep hunt without running into a bunch of hunters. It just takes a lot of scouting and a good knowledge of the country, no one will reveal these spots, prospective sheep hunters must do their own legwork.

[6616]

Have you hunted Bighorns in the Spences bridge area or the Kootenays for that fact.

Most times you spot the ram and its a race up the hill. The fastest guy gets the sheep. In a lot of the cases the slower guy tries a stupid far off shot or fires in the air to scare the sheep away. Trust me, I have seen it more times then I care to think about.BHB

That certainly happens in the Koots in the well known and popular hot-spots Alex, but it doesn't have to be that way. There are many places to hunt sheep in the Koots where this scenario doesn't take place and a good hunt without interference from other hunters is easily possible.

Ask goatguy about his recent sheep hunt to the EK. How many rams did he see, how many other hunters did he run into, the key question - how many miles did he put on his boots because you can bet it was lots. These good quality sheep hunts are available but not off the side of the highway or the Forestry Mains. There's still a lot of wild country in the Koots.

[Kody94]

It's a good time to note also that hunting sheep in the Koots does not have to be a race up the mountain with only the fastest guy winning the race. It will always be that way in the accessible and popular well known hot-spots, but there are many places in the Koots where a sheep hunter can enjoy a good quality wilderness style sheep hunt without running into a bunch of hunters. It just takes a lot of scouting and a good knowledge of the country, no one will reveal these spots, prospective sheep hunters must do their own legwork.

Good post Andy.

What a lotta people don't seem to understand is that tight-lipped sheep hunters are seldom protecting a patch with huge rams...they just finally found a few places with few other hunters and would prefer to keep it that way! Its hard work finding and getting to quiet sheep spots...just telling one loose lipped guy can fill the place up with other guys and negate all that hard work.

I always hope my track record on bighorns will be a deterrent to people thinking of following me. :D

[cxvalleyman]

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p347/cxvalleyman/hunttrip08012.jpg

I saw these one in cache cheek oct 16/08 on our way to Savona.

[cxvalleyman]

http://i344.photobucket.com/albums/p347/cxvalleyman/hunttrip08005.jpg

This guy is a dandy

[srupp]

great posts guys...

cheers

Steven

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Ask goatguy about his recent sheep hunt to the EK. How many rams did he see, how many other hunters did he run into, the key question - how many miles did he put on his boots because you can be it was lots.

Funny....just last night GG claimed the never even saw a sheep and never left the cab of the truck. Of course, it's hard to glass a mtn from the cab when your Timmies keeps steaming up your rifle scope:?...........................:wink:.

SSS

[mark4]

6616- You hit the nail on the head. Sheep hunters need to do their own legwork and then keep there mouths shut lol. The well known hotspots are a foot race unless you are already spike camped up there the night before. Then there is the grumbling when you see other sheep hunters camped up there too lol. Kind of a shame that a huge broomed old ram never ends up on a wall because he isn't full curl -but what do ya do there needs to be some compromise somewhere along the line. I for one obviously am dead set against any 8 year or older sketchy aging system. It needs to be cut and dry and the way it is now is actually pretty good IMO.

[Fisher-Dude]

Funny....just last night GG claimed the never even saw a sheep and never left the cab of the truck. Of course, it's hard to glass a mtn from the cab when your Timmies keeps steaming up your rifle scope:?...........................:wink:.

SSS

I heard the same thing last night. I guess he was telling Andy about some dream he had while dozing in the truck.

[6616]

Funny....just last night GG claimed the never even saw a sheep and never left the cab of the truck. Of course, it's hard to glass a mtn from the cab when your Timmies keeps steaming up your rifle scope:?...........................:wink:.

SSS

Talk about tight lipped sheep hunters...!

[6616]

I heard the same thing last night. I guess he was telling Andy about some dream he had while dozing in the truck.

Do you guys know his hunting partner from Edgewater, if you did you'd know there is serious life threatening implications about telling too much...!

[6616]

6616- You hit the nail on the head. Sheep hunters need to do their own legwork and then keep there mouths shut lol. The well known hotspots are a foot race unless you are already spike camped up there the night before. Then there is the grumbling when you see other sheep hunters camped up there too lol. Kind of a shame that a huge broomed old ram never ends up on a wall because he isn't full curl -but what do ya do there needs to be some compromise somewhere along the line. I for one obviously am dead set against any 8 year or older sketchy aging system. It needs to be cut and dry and the way it is now is actually pretty good IMO.

Then there's the part Mark4, about the ability to have a quality sheep hunt in the Koots without interference from other hunters, getting away from the foot race up the mountain, etc.

I watched a ram for 4 days once while I tried to figure out a way to get to him. I finally had to descend the range completelly, drive up the valley several miles and go up from the other side. He never moved more then 500 yards in those 4 days and he ended up making the BC book.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11008&cat=500&ppuser=3468


There were no other hunters for miles around and his hangout was not visible from any roads or highways. Quite a few guys know where this spot is but no one seems willing to climb a mountain unless they can see a ram from down below first and few are willing to endure the trip into this spot just on spec that there might be something there worth shooting.

(PS, Goatguy and his partner were in this spot a couple weeks ago)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Do you guys know his hunting partner from Edgewater, if you did you'd know there is serious life threatening implications about telling too much...!

That would explain GG's reaction when someone casually asked him last night "where" they went hunting.

He face went white...
he started to speak but stopped.....
reached into his pocket......
pulled out a piece of paper...
read it.....
put it back in his pocket....
looked straight ahead much like a Zombie
.....and said in a robotic monotone voice...."Region 4" .

Never pick an "honest" guy for a sheep hunting partner.

I think "D" has him tuned-in pretty good;).

SSS

[bigmike]

That would explain GG's reaction when someone casually asked him last night "where" they went hunting.

He face went white...
he started to speak but stopped.....
reached into his pocket......
pulled out a piece of paper...
read it.....
put it back in his pocket....
looked straight ahead much like a Zombie
.....and said in a robotic monotone voice...."Region 4" .

Never pick an "honest" guy for a sheep hunting partner.

I think "D" has him tuned-in pretty good;).

SSS
*****......

[Fisher-Dude]

That would explain GG's reaction when someone casually asked him last night "where" they went hunting.

He face went white...
he started to speak but stopped.....
reached into his pocket......
pulled out a piece of paper...
read it.....
put it back in his pocket....
looked straight ahead much like a Zombie
.....and said in a robotic monotone voice...."Region 4" .

Never pick an "honest" guy for a sheep hunting partner.

I think "D" has him tuned-in pretty good;).

SSS

Good thing he put that massive plate full of pepperoni in front of me. I was so busy chompin' that stuff down that I couldn't make a good plan to catch him off guard to find out where he was. He knew what he was doin'. I think he's learning a few sheep hunter secrets from that Edgewater Redneck he was huntin' with! :wink:

[6616]

That would explain GG's reaction when someone casually asked him last night "where" they went hunting.

He face went white...
he started to speak but stopped.....
reached into his pocket......
pulled out a piece of paper...
read it.....
put it back in his pocket....
looked straight ahead much like a Zombie
.....and said in a robotic monotone voice...."Region 4" .

Never pick an "honest" guy for a sheep hunting partner.

I think "D" has him tuned-in pretty good;).

SSS

You got it exactly right...! That piece of paper probably had a funeral home address on it.

[boxhitch]

Good thing he put that massive plate full of pepperoni in front of me. I was so busy chompin' that stuff down that I couldn't make a good plan to catch him off guard to find out where he was. He knew what he was doin'. I think he's learning a few sheep hunter secrets from that Edgewater Redneck he was huntin' with! :wink:It was good wasn't it ?
I did manage to trip up GG for some info . Had him talking quick, excited about bears, tossed in a question about EKElk he had seen recently, got a name, then a stumble backpedal retraction, and an offer of another beer.....Damn I was close though.

[GoatGuy]

Funny....just last night GG claimed the never even saw a sheep and never left the cab of the truck. Of course, it's hard to glass a mtn from the cab when your Timmies keeps steaming up your rifle scope:?...........................:wink:.

SSS

Truck? I hunt out of a car.

Look for a 1977 green honda civic. Call it the pickle.

Windows down, heat on full blast all year long - got to keep the exhaust out of the cab.

Drive all weekend on a tank of gas with it.

[Huey]

Any updates on the ram?

[mikek blacktail]

isaw him yesterday he was nice

[Stone Sheep Steve]

isaw him yesterday he was nice


Was he looking a little pale??

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

Truck? I hunt out of a car.

Look for a 1977 green honda civic. Call it the pickle.

Windows down, heat on full blast all year long - got to keep the exhaust out of the cab.

Drive all weekend on a tank of gas with it.

I kinda like Calvin's comments about your new dually: he said, when you get a truck with those big flares on the rear, soon you'll have a woman with big flares on the rear. :lol:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Any updates on the ram?

Aged @ 7yrs.

Confiscated, charges laid and going to court:shock:.

It might take a while for another update.

I've learned a lot....particularily that you cannot age a bighorn like thinhorn.

Let the flames begin.....................

I should not have posted this but we all need to learn something from this whole ordeal.

When in doubt, don't shoot!

SSS

[boxhitch]

SSS, glad youdid post. It clears things up. OR does it ? At a time when the whole CI procedure is in doubt.http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Spences2.JPG


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Spences1.JPG[/quote]

[budismyhorse]

SSS, Thanks for the update!!! This was a hotly debated thread it deserves to continue educating us hunters.....

[bruin]

Good education SSS, could save a ram from being shot next year. Thanks for posting.

[Rubicon500]

Seen this one coming, the guy was either a complete Idoit and didnt know they had to bridge the nose(Herd he shot it based on the eye) or had balls the size of water mellons and shot it based on his counting skills. We watched that guy for 3 days, no way either of us were going to pull the trigger on him. No matter how many times we counted it never got older than 7.5 :?
Brent who inspected it ? Shawn out of vernon?

[Bighorn hunter]

Seems there were several in this thread who aged it as legal, Like SSS says, you cannot age bighorns as easily as thinhorns. Hopfully this is not the ram that breaks the camels back and the area gets closed

BHH

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Seen this one coming, the guy was either a complete Idoit and didnt know they had to bridge the nose(Herd he shot it based on the eye) or had balls the size of water mellons and shot it based on his counting skills. We watched that guy for 3 days, no way either of us were going to pull the trigger on him. No matter how many times we counted it never got older than 7.5 :?
Brent who inspected it ? Shawn out of vernon?

I believe it was passed on to the regional bio in 3. If the CI's can't count 8 it is automatically passed onto the regional bio in the region it was shot. Don't know who originally inspected this ram but I would lay a bet that they knew it was coming.

SSS

[boxhitch]

Brent who inspected it ? Shawn out of vernon?Rookie, I hope not.

[boxhitch]

SSS did you have a photo of the horns w/o the cape ?

[6616]

Seems there were several in this thread who aged it as legal, Like SSS says, you cannot age bighorns as easily as thinhorns. BHH

Me included. Lesson well learned though like Brent says.
BCRams was right all along.

[Huey]

Then I owe an appology for being cynical. I'm still a student of sheep aging, and got a ways to go to yet before hunting down first ram... so what do I know!? Congrats to the hunter/hunters!
I'm glad he's not going to be just a stain on the highway!

I'd like to retract this half hearted apology! Thanks for the great work Bob!!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Me included. Lesson well learned though like Brent says.
BCRams was right all along.

The vast majority here made the right call in that they would not shoot this ram...no matter where they found him. That's a "good thing".

In the recent testing and training of MOE and Compulsary Inspectors it was clear that the thinhorn bios knew thinhorns and the bighorn bios knew bighorns. There was only one MOE bio that was an expert in both.

I think we all did fine in recognizing the annuli but the debate came from what to call the first visible annuli in this broomed ram.
In the last couple of years I've been trying to figure out how much a bighorn ram lamb can grow in his first 6 months of life...but I had a problem getting that info.
I've picked the brain of a couple of bios but couldn't get a definite answer. Genetics can vary from herd to herd and even within a herd ..and growth can also be dependant on the year due to environmental conditions(like we see in deer moose and elk).
Thanks to 6616, GG and SSSSter I've found out the "typical" growth can be in the 3-5" range and maybe even more given strong genetics and a good growing season. Not only is the lambtip longer but the mass will be much greater.
So where one might expect to see the second annuli in a thinhorn, this may indeed be only the lambtip annuli in a bighorn. Aging can be much more difficult once brooming occurs.

Note how much brooming would have to occur for this ram to broom back to his 1 1/2 yr mark(near the bottom of the curl).


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Spences_Ram_001.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11427)

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

One thing I noticed about this ram is the fact that he didn't seem to put on much growth this year if he really is only 7.......but if we remember that this was one of the coldest(if not "thee" coldest) springs on record, maybe it makes more sense:confused:.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Spences_Ram_002.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10899&ppuser=1509)

SSS

[6616]

I found this thread to be very informative and educational. It's truely remarkable how much horn this guy had at 1 1/2 years old. I guess old dogs can also learn new tricks. Good job SSS and BCR.

[willy442]

The vast majority here made the right call in that they would not shoot this ram...no matter where they found him. That's a "good thing".

In the recent testing and training of MOE and Compulsary Inspectors it was clear that the thinhorn bios knew thinhorns and the bighorn bios knew bighorns. There was only one MOE bio that was an expert in both.

I think we all did fine in recognizing the annuli but the debate came from what to call the first visible annuli in this broomed ram.
In the last couple of years I've been trying to figure out how much a bighorn ram lamb can grow in his first 6 months of life...but I had a problem getting that info.
I've picked the brain of a couple of bios but couldn't get a definite answer. Genetics can vary from herd to herd and even within a herd ..and growth can also be dependant on the year due to environmental conditions(like we see in deer moose and elk).
Thanks to 6616, GG and SSSSter I've found out the "typical" growth can be in the 3-5" range and maybe even more given strong genetics and a good growing season. Not only is the lambtip longer but the mass will be much greater.
So where one might expect to see the second annuli in a thinhorn, this may indeed be only the lambtip annuli in a bighorn. Aging can be much more difficult once brooming occurs.

Note how much brooming would have to occur for this ram to broom back to his 1 1/2 yr mark(near the bottom of the curl).


http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Spences_Ram_001.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11427)

SSS

I can't believe how everyone on here is putting so much credibility on the regional Bio's decision with this ram. It has been pointed out many times that even these so called proffesionals are subject to making mistakes on aging. I don't care to refer to myself as a pro by any means but I can say I've taken many seminars and attended many discussions on aging sheep. I still think this Ram is eight years old and I hope who ever the shooter is has the means to take the ministry to task on thier decision and force them to send out a tooth. If this is done I for one am sure he will recieve his horns back. In fact I'm willing to donate funds to his cause and support what I BELIEVE IS RIGHT.

[budismyhorse]

So for educational purposes (not trying to be a jerk here) please tell us where you come up with 8 yrs? If you can't extrapolate annuli in the field and the ram has to have 8 visible rings on the horn.... how do you justify shooting this ram when there are clearly only 7 rings on the horn. I've had several CO's tell me to my face, you can't shoot a thinhorn/mature bighorn based on age unless there are 8 rings on the horn. In that case, arguing the true age of the ram is moot if you couldn't infact see 8 rings on the horn and only assumed it was 8 yrs old based on estimation or tooth evidence.

[willy442]

So for educational purposes (not trying to be a jerk here) please tell us where you come up with 8 yrs? If you can't extrapolate annuli in the field and the ram has to have 8 visible rings on the horn.... how do you justify shooting this ram when there are clearly only 7 rings on the horn. I've had several CO's tell me to my face, you can't shoot a thinhorn/mature bighorn based on age unless there are 8 rings on the horn. In that case, arguing the true age of the ram is moot if you couldn't infact see 8 rings on the horn and only assumed it was 8 yrs old based on estimation or tooth evidence.

If you start at the base on this Ram and count toward the lamb tip (which is broomed off) you can easily count 7 annuli up to the broomed portion of horn. Once you add what has been broomed, you have an eight year old Ram. If the ministry chooses not to count what they can't see, so be it. This just points out the reason to have a tooth sent out and just maybe the end result will educate our CI's a little more. This could as the end result, benefit all Sheep hunters.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If you start at the base on this Ram and count toward the lamb tip (which is broomed off) you can easily count 7 annuli up to the broomed portion of horn. Once you add what has been broomed, you have an eight year old Ram. If the ministry chooses not to count what they can't see, so be it. This just points out the reason to have a tooth sent out and just maybe the end result will educate our CI's a little more. This could as the end result, benefit all Sheep hunters.

Willy
You're not alone in thinking that this ram is 8 yrs old. Almost everyone I know that knows how to age thinhorns came up with 8 for this ram.

In the recent testing and training session, the MOE thinhorn bios did not do well on bighorns and vice versa....except for one.

The bighorn sheep bio that did did the best has yet to see a bighorn ram broomed back to his 2nd annuli(1 1/2 yrs). This ram is only moderately broomed.



SSS

[budismyhorse]

Thanks Willy,

I imagine that this ram has lived on this earth for 8 yrs and is therefore mature, but strictly from a regulations POV, if the regs state you need evidence on the horn, you can't legally kill that ram.....hence I speculate this ram was taken away for this reason.

I guess if we are all in this debate for the purpose of education, that is the main point we should be taking away from this. If you don't see 8 on the horn, you can't shoot the ram. No??

[willy442]

Willy
You're not alone in thinking that this ram is 8 yrs old. Almost everyone I know that knows how to age thinhorns came up with 8 for this ram.

In the recent testing and training session, the MOE thinhorn bios did not do well on bighorns and vice versa....except for one.

The bighorn sheep bio that did did the best has yet to see a bighorn ram broomed back to his 2nd annuli(1 1/2 yrs). This ram is only moderately broomed.



SSS

Thinhorn Sheep, Big Horn Sheep and let's include Goat are all horned animals. The structure of annuli and how they are formed is the same in all three. I do not agree for one second that any major difference is present in the counting of annuli.
The close up you posted shows 3 annuli and the lack of growth in the last year indicates a mature Ram. (8 or older) If you count out from the base you reach 7 and still have the broomed portion of horn left. Maybe this Bio can explain in what year the extra horn was grown. If you start counting this Ram from the tip in, it would be impossible to make it legal because you then come under the fact, that you can't count what you can't see. Like I said I hope your friend fights this one and I'm serious about sending funds if he wants.

[willy442]

Thanks Willy,

I imagine that this ram has lived on this earth for 8 yrs and is therefore mature, but strictly from a regulations POV, if the regs state you need evidence on the horn, you can't legally kill that ram.....hence I speculate this ram was taken away for this reason.

I guess if we are all in this debate for the purpose of education, that is the main point we should be taking away from this. If you don't see 8 on the horn, you can't shoot the ram. No??

Many Rams are`over the age of 8 and broomed back to the point which makes aging difficult. Due to the ministry regulation and lack of capability to accurately age all sheep. Should we as residents and hunters be penilized for harvesting Rams that have reached maturity. I think absolutely not, I agree we need to educate the hunter and the inspector both on this proccess. We should not be restricted from shooting these old broomed Rams because of a poor aging system in the ministry. Remember many of these Rams are the real big boy's, the kind accomplished Sheep hunters like to find. The capability of the hunter to judge what he is looking at should stay the determining factor. Education can improve hunter and CI judgement and in the end may help with the setting of harvest levels through out the Province, through more accurate aging.

[6616]

If you start at the base on this Ram and count toward the lamb tip (which is broomed off) you can easily count 7 annuli up to the broomed portion of horn. Once you add what has been broomed, you have an eight year old Ram. If the ministry chooses not to count what they can't see, so be it. This just points out the reason to have a tooth sent out and just maybe the end result will educate our CI's a little more. This could as the end result, benefit all Sheep hunters.

I also originally aged this ram at 8 1/2. That was based on the second annuli from tip. It just seemed that there was too much horn there for this to be the 2 year annuli so I concluded it was the 3 year annuli and counted from there starting at three and allowing the portion below the last annuli to the skull to 1/2 year..

If in fact this this actually is the 2 year annuli then this ram would thus appear to be 7 1/2 years old.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Thinhorn Sheep, Big Horn Sheep and let's include Goat are all horned animals. The structure of annuli and how they are formed is the same in all three. I do not agree for one second that any major difference is present in the counting of annuli.
The close up you posted shows 3 annuli and the lack of growth in the last year indicates a mature Ram. (8 or older) If you count out from the base you reach 7 and still have the broomed portion of horn left. Maybe this Bio can explain in what year the extra horn was grown. If you start counting this Ram from the tip in, it would be impossible to make it legal because you then come under the fact, that you can't count what you can't see. Like I said I hope your friend fights this one and I'm serious about sending funds if he wants.

Not a friend of mine that shot this ram.

The Regional Bio that had the final say in this is also the MOE bio that did the recent training of bios and C Inspectors for bighorns...so if anyone is qualified on aging bighorns it is him.

From what I understand... the first visible annuli that is ~1-2" from the broomed tip has been recognized as his frist annuli(6 months). We calculated roughly 5-7" broomed off. If this was a thinhorn...an 7-8" lamtip would not be possible. In southern bighorns, it is quite possible.....at least from what I've recently learned....or at least "tried" to learn.


SSS

[willy442]

Not a friend of mine that shot this ram.

The Regional Bio that had the final say in this is also the MOE bio that did the recent training of bios and C Inspectors for bighorns...so if anyone is qualified on aging bighorns it is him.

From what I understand... the first visible annuli that is ~1-2" from the broomed tip has been recognized as his frist annuli(6 months). We calculated roughly 5-7" broomed off. If this was a thinhorn...an 7-8" lamtip would not be possible. In southern bighorns, it is quite possible.....at least from what I've recently learned....or at least "tried" to learn.


SSS

I strongly disagree and really hope a tooth goes out. Like I said count from the base out and this Ram is 7 excluding the broomed portion. If the broomed portion is his first year of growth, this makes him 8+.

[Bighorn hunter]

SSS can you post up a pic of your spences ram? From your field photo it looks like it may still have its lamb tips.

Thanks BHH

[Bighorn hunter]

I can't believe how everyone on here is putting so much credibility on the regional Bio's decision with this ram. It has been pointed out many times that even these so called proffesionals are subject to making mistakes on aging. I don't care to refer to myself as a pro by any means but I can say I've taken many seminars and attended many discussions on aging sheep. I still think this Ram is eight years old and I hope who ever the shooter is has the means to take the ministry to task on thier decision and force them to send out a tooth. If this is done I for one am sure he will recieve his horns back. In fact I'm willing to donate funds to his cause and support what I BELIEVE IS RIGHT.


I Thought we went through this before? In the regs does it not state visible horn growth to be legal, not the use of a tooth.

Edit: disregard as I just read back a few posts and saw budismyhorse stated the same thing

[mark4]

Would be awesome to be able to harvest these big massive rams that are broomed back too far -and thus presently not full curl. What a trophy.

[6616]

Would be awesome to be able to harvest these big massive rams that are broomed back too far -and thus presently not full curl. What a trophy.

That's true, but this ram didn't fit that catagory, he only had his lamb tips broomed off.

[GoatGuy]

If you start at the base on this Ram and count toward the lamb tip (which is broomed off) you can easily count 7 annuli up to the broomed portion of horn. Once you add what has been broomed, you have an eight year old Ram. If the ministry chooses not to count what they can't see, so be it. This just points out the reason to have a tooth sent out and just maybe the end result will educate our CI's a little more. This could as the end result, benefit all Sheep hunters.

As a lamb 6 months (first fall) is ~ 4", probably even more where that sheep was killed.

As yearlings they're going to have to broom off around 12+" before you get to that first annuli. Horns would be like pop cans to get back that far.

Does that ram have 12" of horn broomed off?



Asking the professional of course.


I'm also wondering how accurate teeth are when it comes to aging sheep?

Feel free to cite as many papers as you want.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

The lower jaw is gone. As soon as I knew it was going to be controversial I asked if he still had it but it was too late.

Can they use another tooth??

SSS

[boxhitch]

Here's the pics of my Cali that I mentioned.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_001.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10904)

There's an annuli visible just at the bottom of the curl which is 1 1/2.
Here's apic of the inside of the horn which helps.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_002.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10905)



Nest annuli is at about 9:00...2 1/2

Other side which is broomed pretty much at the 1 1/2 annuli....not really visible

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Cali_annuli_003.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10906)

Other than the size this rams ages pretty much like the Spences ram.

From post #100 page 10

[willy442]

As a lamb 6 months (first fall) is ~ 4", probably even more where that sheep was killed.

As yearlings they're going to have to broom off around 12+" before you get to that first annuli. Horns would be like pop cans to get back that far.

Does that ram have 12" of horn broomed off?



Asking the professional of course.


I'm also wondering how accurate teeth are when it comes to aging sheep?

Feel free to cite as many papers as you want.

Unlike some I have some knowledge on the subject, I have no need to cite papers. How about you tell me what amount of horn is broomed off. Please also explain why the 6 and 7 year annuli drop of so bad if this area produces such tremendous growth. The point here being this Ram has 7 annuli from the base to the broomed horn. Any horn growth past this is in his eigth year and should be treated as such. Although the credibility of aging by teeth is some what questionable, I for one believe it is most likely more accurate than our CI's even if trained by the so called SHEEP EXPERT SSS refered to.

If you are going to start your typical quote's from others and cut and paste papers, please spare us the trouble of having to dig through all the crap.

If you are looking for an arguement, you can also look else where, I fail to have the time to waste on you.

Thanks Bill

[willy442]

From post #100 page 10

I agree your Cali is very much the same and I also get him at 8

[Bighorn hunter]

Hey Willy, why such a hate on for the CI's, get something confiscated lately?

[willy442]

Hey Willy, why such a hate on for the CI's, get something confiscated lately?

BH; No I have never had anything ever confinscated by the CI's. I don't have a hate on for them either. The problem I have is our ministry originally set up the CI thing on sheep to be done by people that were some what qualified to age Sheep. This went out the window and they then hired any Joe Blow to do it with minimal training. This is where the majority of inconsistencey started with the aging. Our allowable harvest and many other sheep management stratagies are affected by the age of harvest along with other information. Over the years I have watched this whole structure of sheep harvest and the aging proccess fail time after time and continually affect the allowable harvest.
Hope this clears it up for you.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's my rocky from Spences. My ram has way inferior genetics than the other ram in question. Bases on my ram are a full 3" smaller.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/pics_001.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11453&size=big&cat=500)

The first visible annuli is at 4 1/2"(righ on par with what I've been told by the pros). Originally, I thought this was his second annuli but now I'm convinced it's only his lambtip annuli.

Next visible annuli is at 13 1/2". If this Spences ram in question broomed back this far his girth at the brooming would be much higher.

We estimated that the ram in question had only broomed ~5-7" but maybe less since his horns are so much heavier than my ram.

I'm now convinced that my cali is also only 7yrs.

Willy-Have you had the chance to observe rockies from different herds on their winter range? Collar and follow any lambies for a few years???

I haven't but I don't claim to be an expert.

Just trying to learn........

SSS

[6616]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/DSCN00021.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11454&size=big&cat=recent&limit=recent)

The annuli on SSS's bighorn stand out pretty well. That is not always the case with bighorns and some can be darned near impossible to age by annuli in the field.

Here is a ram I shot in the EK in 1991. I did not even try to age him since one horn was over the bridge of the nose and I don't think I could have if I'd of tried. The very experienced CO who CIed this ram counted annuli on both horns several times before he reached a conclusion, and that's with the horns right in his hands!

It turned out he was correct, and we know that because this ram had a very small numbered tag in his ear about 1/2"x1" in size. He was tagged at Stoddard Creek winter range at the age of three by Anna Fontana and Bill Warkinton and the date recorded, so to get the true age all we had to do was cross-reference the Cranbrook sheep tag data base.

How old do you think he is? Would you shoot this ram based on counting annuli alone if both horns were broomed off?

[6616]

Did you get 9 1/2?

Would you be sure enough to shoot not considering horn length?

[3kills]

i have only started learnin bout countin annuli this fall with threads like with sayin that i get 8 years...but no wouldnt shoot with just that...

[willy442]

Here's my rocky from Spences. My ram has way inferior genetics than the other ram in question. Bases on my ram are a full 3" smaller.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/pics_001.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11453&size=big&cat=500)

The first visible annuli is at 4 1/2"(righ on par with what I've been told by the pros). Originally, I thought this was his second annuli but now I'm convinced it's only his lambtip annuli.

Next visible annuli is at 13 1/2". If this Spences ram in question broomed back this far his girth at the brooming would be much higher.

We estimated that the ram in question had only broomed ~5-7" but maybe less since his horns are so much heavier than my ram.

I'm now convinced that my cali is also only 7yrs.

Willy-Have you had the chance to observe rockies from different heards on their winter range? Collar and follow any lambies for a few years???

I haven't but I don't claim to be an expert.

Just trying to learn........

SSS

This Ram is 5 1/2 years old and most likely the reason he is lacking the mass of the other Ram.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'm glad you got 5 1/2 Willy. If you aged him like a Stone you most likely would have got 6 1/2?? No??

Now how much brooming do you think the other ram has?? Which annuli is near the tip of his brooming??

That ram had substantial more girth @ 3yrs than my ram had a 5yrs.

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's a refresher for us to help us guesstimate how much is broomed.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Spences_Ram_001.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=11427)

Which annuli if his first obvious one....@ say 5:00??
SSS

[Bighorn hunter]

I get 7 yrs on yours 6616


SSS 5:00 is where I see the first obvious as well, adn thanks for posting your rocky. That should be proof enough for anyone that a bighorn can grow 13" by the age of 1.5/2.

[Bighorn hunter]

BH; No I have never had anything ever confinscated by the CI's. I don't have a hate on for them either. The problem I have is our ministry originally set up the CI thing on sheep to be done by people that were some what qualified to age Sheep. This went out the window and they then hired any Joe Blow to do it with minimal training. This is where the majority of inconsistencey started with the aging. Our allowable harvest and many other sheep management stratagies are affected by the age of harvest along with other information. Over the years I have watched this whole structure of sheep harvest and the aging proccess fail time after time and continually affect the allowable harvest.
Hope this clears it up for you.

Thanks for the reply willy442, I totally agree with the lack of training in the last number of years, Hopfully the training they are doing now will help everyone.

thanks again BHH

[BCrams]

For those who thought the ram was too close to call and decided not to shoot him based on the live photos ....... you made the correct call.

It is unfortunate the individual in question made the choice to shoot the ram.

Next - are sources of information I acquired from two sources of which cannot be beat regarding bighorn horn growths in their first 4-6 months of growth. I'll bet some current ministry bio's do not even know this detailed information:

First Source:

In the first 6 months horns of bighorns grow up to 6 inches. The growth
pattern is as follows:

0-1 week-no horns.
1-4 weeks- horns appear as tuffs of hair ~ 1 inch high.
1-2 months- horns just appearing above tuffs of hair.
3 months- horns 1-1.5 inches above hair.
4 months- horns 2-3 inches in males and 1-1.5 inches in females.
5 months- horns 3-4 inches in males and 2-3 inches in females.
6 months- horns 4-6 inches in males and 3-4 inches in females.

Second Source:

For about 160 male lambs September-November (so age 4-6 months), the
average horn length is 93 mm (SD = 69.96)

If you look at the first annulus in adult rams, the average is about 82 mm - but that is affected by wear, so it decreases with ram age. So, if you want inches, I'd say anything between 2 and 5 inches would be about 'normal' - but there's a lot of variation.

As for CI inspections ..... it appears to me from reading the above statements - a person with a bighorn ram which is borderline legal / not legal by age could enhance their odds of having the ram aged as a "legal" 8 year old ram by taking the ram into someone who does "a lot" of Stone's sheep on the chance they will get that 'extra' year out of it as if its aged like a Stone's ram rather than properly like a bighorn.

Its been educational all around - myself included.

[Bighorn hunter]

just looked at your ram again 6616, I believe its actually 8(final answer)

[willy442]

For those who thought the ram was too close to call and decided not to shoot him based on the live photos ....... you made the correct call.

It is unfortunate the individual in question made the choice to shoot the ram.

Next - are sources of information I acquired from two sources of which cannot be beat regarding bighorn horn growths in their first 4-6 months of growth. I'll bet some current ministry bio's do not even know this detailed information:

First Source:

In the first 6 months horns of bighorns grow up to 6 inches. The growth
pattern is as follows:

0-1 week-no horns.
1-4 weeks- horns appear as tuffs of hair ~ 1 inch high.
1-2 months- horns just appearing above tuffs of hair.
3 months- horns 1-1.5 inches above hair.
4 months- horns 2-3 inches in males and 1-1.5 inches in females.
5 months- horns 3-4 inches in males and 2-3 inches in females.
6 months- horns 4-6 inches in males and 3-4 inches in females.

Second Source:

For about 160 male lambs September-November (so age 4-6 months), the
average horn length is 93 mm (SD = 69.96)

If you look at the first annulus in adult rams, the average is about 82 mm - but that is affected by wear, so it decreases with ram age. So, if you want inches, I'd say anything between 2 and 5 inches would be about 'normal' - but there's a lot of variation.

As for CI inspections ..... it appears to me from reading the above statements - a person with a bighorn ram which is borderline legal / not legal by age could enhance their odds of having the ram aged as a "legal" 8 year old ram by taking the ram into someone who does "a lot" of Stone's sheep on the chance they will get that 'extra' year out of it as if its aged like a Stone's ram rather than properly like a bighorn.

Its been educational all around - myself included.

So if the Ram grows 6 inches June to November and starts growing again in late April, early May and grows again until November is he not now 1.5 years old in the fall season? He may have a horn length that could be over 12 inches at this age, I agree. Now lets say the Ram only grew 4 inches in the first 6 months and about 6 inches in the second growth year. Now we have a Ram that can very easily be broomed back to his 1.5 year annuli and not be any different than the Ram in Spences Bridge. By the photo I see this Ram did not have what I would call tremendous growth in any year. For the 3 years near his bases his growth was rather poor for a Big Horn in fact. I believe that the annuli at the broom is the 1.5 annuli and this would result in the Ram being 8 years old.

The claim that there is a difference in the aging proccess between a Big Horn and a Thin Horn simply is out to lunch. I agree the rates of growth may be different and need to be considered.

The good of this though is if all sheep hunters on here believe the Ram is 7 and don't shoot if they fail to break the bridge of the nose, it will create a harvest of young Rams like the 2 SSS has posted. It will also leave some monsters around for the accomplished Sheep Hunter.

[willy442]

I'm glad you got 5 1/2 Willy. If you aged him like a Stone you most likely would have got 6 1/2?? No??

Now how much brooming do you think the other ram has?? Which annuli is near the tip of his brooming??

That ram had substantial more girth @ 3yrs than my ram had a 5yrs.

SSS

No don't think so, to be honest on the mountain I would not have even given him a second look. It is immediatly obvious that he is a juvinille ram.

I would estimate that the Spences Bridge Ram has broomed 7 to 9 inches of horn from his date of birth.

The only reason this Ram had more girth than what you say yours had is plain and simple he is one year older than what you make him. Hence more growth and a heavier horn.

[6616]

just looked at your ram again 6616, I believe its actually 8(final answer)

It was CIed at 9 1/2 and the biologist who put in the ear tag in 1984 recorded the ram as being 2 1/2 years old at that time. This adds up,,,,,,, but considering the new information that BCRams and SSS have dug up, there's actually a very good chance the ram was actually only 1 1/2 instead of 2 1/2 when the ear tag was put in which would have made him 8 1/2 when shot in 1991. Very interesting and informative thread.

[BCrams]

So if the Ram grows 6 inches June to November and starts growing again in late April, early May and grows again until November is he not now 1.5 years old in the fall season?

Yep.....and the horn growth is more in its second growing season than the first when it was a lamb.

He may have a horn length that could be over 12 inches at this age, I agree. Now lets say the Ram only grew 4 inches in the first 6 months and about 6 inches in the second growth year. Now we have a Ram that can very easily be broomed back to his 1.5 year annuli and not be any different than the Ram in Spences Bridge.

The angle of the one photo on the table appears to offer more horn growth than the one I see with the fellow holding it in the field .... hence my opinion it is indeed the 1/2 yr mark if I was to imaginary place 6-7" of horn growth onto the end in the field photo shot.

By the photo I see this Ram did not have what I would call tremendous growth in any year. For the 3 years near his bases his growth was rather poor for a Big Horn in fact. I believe that the annuli at the broom is the 1.5 annuli and this would result in the Ram being 8 years old.

Did a little digging around and talking around but I do believe this ram is now 7.5 yrs and not 8. I can see the ram horn differences in mass as well between the two rams (SSS and the Spences) ...... tight curl vs one going back and down before sweeping up.

The claim that there is a difference in the aging proccess between a Big Horn and a Thin Horn simply is out to lunch. I agree the rates of growth may be different and need to be considered.

Not different in the aging process but just accounting for the rates of growth need to be taken into consideration. For example - a person who is used to CI'ing Stone's is used to looking for that 1/2 yr mark at 1-2 inches and may count for it on a bighorn ram when he/she should not.

The good of this though is if all sheep hunters on here believe the Ram is 7 and don't shoot if they fail to break the bridge of the nose, it will create a harvest of young Rams like the 2 SSS has posted. It will also leave some monsters around for the accomplished Sheep Hunter.

...........

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Willy
I want this ram to be 8, believe me. We're on the verge of Spences going to LEH. Nobody wants that.
I, and many others, first aged him @ 8 just like you did. But the more I have learned since this thread began (from the guys that are the real experts on bighorns) the more I am confident the he's only 7.

One bighorn bio that really knows his stuff said that he has yet to see a bighorn ram broomed back to his second annuli. If the annuli are the way you say they are then the Spences ram is close to that with only moderate brooming.

This ram never had great growth in any year?? You Serious?? If this ram had not broomed he would have easily been over 45" and that's at 7 (or 8) yrs of age. I'm sure you can judge Stones but I'm really second guessing your ability to judge bighorns:???:.

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

BTW Willy...you can save your sheep guiding tips as I learned that he's getting free lawyer service as one of his partners happens to be one.

SSS

[BCrams]

How this whole thing plays out in the end will be interesting.

I wouldn't want to see the Spences herd going to LEH but with the number of 'illegal' rams taken from the area in any given year - its crazy.

[willy442]

Willy
I want this ram to be 8, believe me. We're on the verge of Spences going to LEH. Nobody wants that.
I, and many others, first aged him @ 8 just like you did. But the more I have learned since this thread began (from the guys that are the real experts on bighorns) the more I am confident the he's only 7.

One bighorn bio that really knows his stuff said that he has yet to see a bighorn ram broomed back to his second annuli. If the annuli are the way you say they are then the Spences ram is close to that with only moderate brooming.

This ram never had great growth in any year?? You Serious?? If this ram had not broomed he would have easily been over 45" and that's at 7 (or 8) yrs of age. I'm sure you can judge Stones but I'm really second guessing your ability to judge bighorns:???:.

SSS

I guess your bio has never gone into any place with huge Big Horns then. Send him to Cadomin and have him study some of those Rams. I have seen many Big Horns that are broomed past the 1.5 years.

You think this Ram could have been 45". THAT'S FUNNY! Have you ever seen a 45" Ram?

[willy442]

BTW Willy...you can save your sheep guiding tips as I learned that he's getting free lawyer service as one of his partners happens to be one.

SSS

Perfect! How about a side bet. I'm a gambler.

[willy442]

...........
Did a little digging around and talking around but I do believe this ram is now 7.5 yrs and not 8. I can see the ram horn differences in mass as well between the two rams (SSS and the Spences) ...... tight curl vs one going back and down before sweeping up.

There is no comparison between these 2 Rams. The age difference accounts for the growth.

Just because one has aged more Thin horns than Big Horns is no reason to suspect he failed to take into account the better horn growh in the early years of a Big Horn
.

[6616]

From what I have read on this topic the only annuli on bighorns that is always characterized by "rounded bump" is the lamb tip annuli and the second annuli and all the rest are always characterized by the clearly defined groove. Considering this the annuli near the broomed off tip would be the lamb tip annuli making the ram only 7 1/2. I also initially aged him at 8 1/2 and have changed my mind (unfortunately) following reasearch and information presented by BCRams and SSS. I fear that freebie lawyer may have his work cut out for him. In the end this may be settled in court by who the expert witness is going to be and how he personally ages sheep horns. It might have to be God himself to settle this...!

[Bighorn hunter]

You think this Ram could have been 45". THAT'S FUNNY! Have you ever seen a 45" Ram?[/quote]


What are you saying here?The ram was measured at around 39", With 6" broomed he would be 45". With your statements woulde he be over 50"?

[willy442]

You think this Ram could have been 45". THAT'S FUNNY! Have you ever seen a 45" Ram?


What are you saying here?The ram was measured at around 39", With 6" broomed he would be 45". With your statements woulde he be over 50"?[/quote]

Would be could be really don't matter you can't add growth that isn't there. The Ram has reached maturity and his growth has dropped of to nothing. He has broomed 1 year off the lamb tip. You tell me how he is ever going to reach 45".

If you were to ever go look at some of the real big rams taken you would see what kind of annual growth it takes to make a 45 inch Big Horn and this ram don't have it.

I can't wait for the guy that shot this ram to kick the ministry's ass and get his horns back.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If you were to ever go look at some of the real big rams taken you would see what kind of annual growth it takes to make a 45 inch Big Horn and this ram don't have it.

I can't wait for the guy that shot this ram to kick the ministry's ass and get his horns back.

Saying that this ram never had any good growth years compared to the Cadomin rams is like saying that your low 170's Stone never had any good growth years when compared to the Chadwick ram:neutral:.

Of course, "good" is a subjective term and can mean anything that you want it to.

Willy, with your gift to argue any side of the discussion maybe you should represent this fella in court:roll:.

SSS

[Bighorn hunter]

What are you saying here?The ram was measured at around 39", With 6" broomed he would be 45". With your statements woulde he be over 50"?

Would be could be really don't matter you can't add growth that isn't there. The Ram has reached maturity and his growth has dropped of to nothing. He has broomed 1 year off the lamb tip. You tell me how he is ever going to reach 45".

If you were to ever go look at some of the real big rams taken you would see what kind of annual growth it takes to make a 45 inch Big Horn and this ram don't have it.

I can't wait for the guy that shot this ram to kick the ministry's ass and get his horns back.[/quote]


yes I agree that it can only be guessed at the amount of horn growth that is broomed, however iI feel that 6 " isnt unresonable, so add that to what he has and with his lamb tips he could quite possably be 45".I to have been to cadomin several times, and held big rams at fnaws.I am no expert but do feel that I have some experience with sheep.

What i find laughable is that a few posts ago you said you did not have the time to bother arguing this issue, yet now you are almost blue in the face.

Certainly waiting your reply
BHH

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Acutally, maybe I can give the lawyer Willy's name so he can be called to testify as the expert witness for the Defence.

I can just see it now "Geist vs Sorenson"....standing room only in the court room. I know I'd book the day off work to catch that showdown:cool:.

SSS

[willy442]

Acutally, maybe I can give the lawyer Willy's name so he can be called to testify as the expert witness for the Defence.

I can just see it now "Geist vs Sorenson"....standing room only in the court room. I know I'd book the day off work to catch that showdown:cool:.

SSS

I can tell you that Dr. Val Giest I'm sure will determine this Ram to be 8 years old if he becomes an expert in this case.
Unless you have some Rams in the closet that you haven't posted pictures of yet. I really don't think some one who only has two juvenile rams life time is in a strong position to argue.

[willy442]

yes I agree that it can only be guessed at the amount of horn growth that is broomed, however iI feel that 6 " isnt unresonable, so add that to what he has and with his lamb tips he could quite possably be 45".I to have been to cadomin several times, and held big rams at fnaws.I am no expert but do feel that I have some experience with sheep.

What i find laughable is that a few posts ago you said you did not have the time to bother arguing this issue, yet now you are almost blue in the face.


I'm not argueing the fact that if he still had all the horn he grew he would be 45". What I am argueing is he fails to have what he broomed and don't have enough growth now to ever make a 45" Ram period.

My statement on arguing the matter of this Ram was directed to GG and only him.


What I find laughable is most the sheep hunters on here buy into anything determined or posted by the Ministry or anyone else. They jump around and back and forth on anything. I'm not buying into this program on what I determine and believe to be a legal Ram. The fact is if more people were educated on some of these matters with sheep just maybe the ministry and Bio's would smarten up on some matters.

To even consider info on Sheep aging or harvest from many on here is like reading a comic.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I can tell you that Dr. Val Giest I'm sure will determine this Ram to be 8 years old if he becomes an expert in this case.
Unless you have some Rams in the closet that you haven't posted pictures of yet. I really don't think some one who only has two juvenile rams life time is in a strong position to argue.

I'm not arguing MY opinion...just relaying the opinion of two veteran bighorn bios and what they got for an age of this ram.

SSS

[jml11]

I think is is great thread and extremely educational; however I am a bit confused and it stems from willys statements.

Willy has agreed that SSS spences ram is 5 1/2 which means he also agrees that the 1 1/2 year annuli is at 13 1/2 inches from the tip of the horn. I'm guessing the horn circumfernece at this point is in the 8-9" range.

However Willy still feels the latest spences ram is 8 1/2 years old which means that the first visible ring right at the brooming would have to be the 1 1/2 ring would it not? This would also mean that this ram has broomed off 12-14" (or more) but only has 4-5" circumference at that point??

I've looked at numerous photos of bighorn on google images at it seems that the majority would have a horn circumefence in the 8-10" range at the 1 1/2 mark, which corresonds with the 2nd visible ring (@ 5:00 in the capped out photo posted by SSS) on the latest spences ram.

Just looking for some clarification as it seems the horn size at the same age should be fairly consistent with both Spences Rams

[Bighorn hunter]

[quote=willy442;363013]yes I agree that it can only be guessed at the amount of horn growth that is broomed, however iI feel that 6 " isnt unresonable, so add that to what he has and with his lamb tips he could quite possably be 45".I to have been to cadomin several times, and held big rams at fnaws.I am no expert but do feel that I have some experience with sheep.

What i find laughable is that a few posts ago you said you did not have the time to bother arguing this issue, yet now you are almost blue in the face.


I'm not argueing the fact that if he still had all the horn he grew he would be 45". What I am argueing is he fails to have what he broomed and don't have enough growth now to ever make a 45" Ram period.






I'm glad to see you agree that with lamb tips he could have been a 45" ram. IMO thats preaty good genetics to achieve that growth by the age of 7. And yes I agree that with his brooming and had he continued to live and broom more he never would have made it to 45"

Something we need to remember is that if these rams were at cadomin they would likely be just as good as the residents. It is amazing what good feed and low predation can do for horn growth. When I have been to cadomin in the winter the rams are so fat they almost have a hard time climbing the hills.

Another interesting thought would be if the cadomin rams horn is as strong as rams else where that do not have the same amount feed.This being said, and it is only my thoughts, would it be this that enables them to broom further back?

[horshur]

How this whole thing plays out in the end will be interesting.

I wouldn't want to see the Spences herd going to LEH but with the number of 'illegal' rams taken from the area in any given year - its crazy.

current common philosophy would suggest that this herd should be exterpated rather than protected...open them up they were introduced.

[GoatGuy]

Unlike some I have some knowledge on the subject, I have no need to cite papers. How about you tell me what amount of horn is broomed off. Please also explain why the 6 and 7 year annuli drop of so bad if this area produces such tremendous growth. The point here being this Ram has 7 annuli from the base to the broomed horn. Any horn growth past this is in his eigth year and should be treated as such. Although the credibility of aging by teeth is some what questionable, I for one believe it is most likely more accurate than our CI's even if trained by the so called SHEEP EXPERT SSS refered to.

If you are going to start your typical quote's from others and cut and paste papers, please spare us the trouble of having to dig through all the crap.

If you are looking for an arguement, you can also look else where, I fail to have the time to waste on you.

Thanks Bill

I didn't know you were trained in aging sheep by teeth; I'm pretty sure you're not.

If you aren't and you can't cite anything on it you're best keeping your 'knowledge' to yourself. My guess is you don't have any idea what you're talking about. Just like Dr.Moose, nanny/sow harvest and harvesting 7 yr old rams.


"Although the credibility of aging by teeth is some what questionable"

There's nothing credible of aging teeth and there's nothing that's somewhat questionable. When we talk about accuracy we talk about specifics as in numbers, not vague comments.

Why do sheep horns get plugged anyways?

[boxhitch]

current common philosophy would suggest that this herd should be exterpated rather than protected...open them up they were introduced.Common ??? Whose campfire ? They aren't protected. they have a controlled harvest, and currently a GOS in an area that gets hunter into Rocky's.
WSS has made efforts on behalf of all hunters to keep this area open for GOS opportunity, and with the recent fires they should be doing better than ever.


exterpated
?? This coming from a BC hunter ??

[boxhitch]

Willy442, the sheep sheriff guy -
Thanks for your knowledgeable input on this matter. BUT it is getting watered down by the mixed emotions and dissingcusions.
Maybe we need a lesson from yourself, your pictures, your explainations, your arrows,
You may have some good stuff to pass on, help us get it right, but we need your fresh perspective.
I hope don't sound like I am calling you out, but if you can offer it up, and it is a good lesson, we all will benefit.
'Thanks

Or maybe I should have this as a new thread ??

[jasper]

how much bigger does he need to be is it mature or full curl

[willy442]

Willy442, the sheep sheriff guy -
Thanks for your knowledgeable input on this matter. BUT it is getting watered down by the mixed emotions and dissingcusions.
Maybe we need a lesson from yourself, your pictures, your explainations, your arrows,
You may have some good stuff to pass on, help us get it right, but we need your fresh perspective.
I hope don't sound like I am calling you out, but if you can offer it up, and it is a good lesson, we all will benefit.
'Thanks

Or maybe I should have this as a new thread ??

The arrows and pictures were all posted already a few times this year if you look back through some of the Sheep threads.

I think it is probably best to let the novice sheep hunter stay hunting under the full curl rule only and not waste anymore time on the subject. This will as I said before result in more rams of the 5 year old lamb tipped variety like SSS's being shot and like I said before eventual limited entry. When I stated the ministry always used age of harvest to help make regulation it was argued strongly by GG and others, now I see concern over the Spences Bridge area going lel. This would be a good thing as driving down through the canyon seeing the hunters lined up looking across is disgusting. IS THAT REALLY SHEEP HUNTING.

It is no different now than it was thirty years ago on the aging of these rams. The arguements on annuli etc were the same back then amongst the bio's, hunters and guides. Then they studied and tried aging by teeth until it became questionable on how accurate that was. The bright side is like I said the good old big broomed rams will be available for the knowledgable hunter, guide and the occassional lucky novice.

[325 wsm]

I've read a lot of different opinions and heard a lot of questions being asked throughout this thread, as have those that have been reading it. That being said maybe their should be a type of sheep specific "core" program developed that all hunters are required to take before they can purchase a sheep tag. hopefully a program like this could have most of these questions answered before a hunter could step out into the field, thereby reducing the odds of an "ilegal" sheep being shot. Also (and just throwing this out there to get people thinking more about options and solutions) a point system in which hunters get say... 10 bighorn points and 10 thinhorn points in a life time. If you shoot an illegal ram you loose about 5 to 7 points lets say. A ram within 1 year or 1 inch of being legal and you loose 2 to 4 points. a ram more than 2 years or inches of being legal and you only loose 1 point. of course this would not be a perfect system but i'm sure it will lead to more discussion and hopoefully some right answers that will allow sheep hunting to continue in B.C. for a long long time

[bigwhiteys]

10 bighorn points and 10 thinhorn points in a life time. If you shoot an illegal ram you loose about 5 to 7 points lets say. A ram within 1 year or 1 inch of being legal and you loose 2 to 4 points. a ram more than 2 years or inches of being legal and you only loose 1 point. of course this would not be a perfect system but i'm sure it will lead to more discussion and hopoefully some right answers that will allow sheep hunting to continue in B.C. for a long long time

Interesting idea... I think go back to 1 sheep in 3 years if you harvest under 8 years of age. Harvest 8+ and you can hunt every year. Penalizes those who aren't helping out the sheep and keeps those who are hunting.

Carl