ticked off with LEH....

[ratherbefishin]

I'm right ticked off with the LEH system-in 10 years I've had only 2 draws-and one moose.I'm 61-so according to logistics-I have about a life expectancy of about 15 years-which means I might get 2 or 3 more draws in my lifetime-if I'm lucky.Yes,I can go and hunt the early season-with flies and hornets-or I can shoot a calf-or try for the illusive ''immature''.This year we went up to the ''any bull'' area on the Yukon -BC border-1400 miles drive-and a week early.I probably drove past 2000 miles of prime moose country-but it may as well been on the moon[yes we saw moose,coming and going]IF I want a bull-I'm not picky-a nice 3 or 4 year old will do nicely-do I have to shell out thousands of dollars and go with a guide who has an allotment?

Maybe if I lived where I could hunt moose every weekend,and luck into an immature-it wouldn't be so bad-but I've got just one week a year to go moose hunting-I like hunting in early October when the weather gets colder-but something just doesn't seem right about this system-are moose populations REALLY that low in British Columbia we have to be so restrictive of it-especially when hunter numbers are about half what they were 30 years ago?[Even choosing low odds areas and group applications doesn't seem to help much]

Anyway-thats my rant....and frustration with the system-anybody else feel the same way?[and is this one reason for the declining numbers of hunting licences sold?]

[SLIK]

Maybe if I lived where I could hunt moose every weekend,and luck into an immature-it wouldn't be so bad-but I've got just one week a year to go moose hunting



then maybe you should move

[KodiakHntr]

That was my thoughts too......

Random draws are just that...Random. Some guys win, most guys lose....

[PGK]

SIMPLE! Stop putting in for high odds!

[Byson]

my Luck in the Leh hasn't been too bad over the years, i did get skunked this year i was a little pissed when i checked on the computer. what really gets me pissed is when some one tells me ya i got a moose draw this year and im not going to use it i hear this every year, this is what got to change some how so we could put these tags back into the system and people could take a last second draw and make atempt to hunt the draw

[ElkMasterC]

10 years I have never got a draw for so much as a rabid gopher in heat for god sakes

Someone ELSE hunts those?

(Whew) ... I thought I was alone........
:rolleyes:

[todbartell]

one moose draw in 10 years, sounds about right for alot of BC leh zones............

[ratherbefishin]

We put in for group hunts in 4 or 5 to 1 odds area's-hardly high odds area's so on that basis I agree getting 1 draw every 5 years is about right.

My question is-after years of LEH management-the moose populations should be INCREASING back to historic levels and LEH odds should be GOING DOWN-and increasing hunting opportunities-especially when only half the hunters are in the field.I'd even be happy with a every second or third year guarantee of getting a group chance to harvest a bull...

[mountainman]

This is why the Alberta system works better for everyone. If you plan properly you will know exactly when you get your draw.
Moose in the G.P. area is approximatly every 3-4 yrs. Plus if you don't want your draw one year you 999 it and still gain priority.

[Mr. Maverick]

15 years for this guy. 2 doe draws and thats about it. My buddy put in last year and it was his first year of hunting and got a moose draw but oh well they are random draws and i can't expect anything. I'll keep trying and when i finally get one i might go live in the bush for the full draw.

[trailhunter]

im going on 15 years with one doe draw...........maybe i should put in with my buddies dad.........he seems to get a moose draw every year

[rocksteady]

I don't bank on LEH, they are just a bonus.....

The generous open seasons we have in BC are pretty good, as long as you have the time to commit....

The last one I got was the year that they had the "stand in line cow/calf tags" at teh MoE office here in Cranbrook....

My hunting buddies Mom camped out all night in a lawn chair and got us 4 tags (only harvested 2 )....It was like she was waiting for Rolling Stones tickets or some damn thing...

[DeerWhisperer]

The worst is when you get skunked on a draw in the main area that you go hunting where you have your cabin. Than you find out that somebody has a draw for right where you wanted it and has never been up there in their entire life.. That pisses me right off

[todbartell]

The worst is when you get skunked on a draw in the main area that you go hunting where you have your cabin. Than you find out that somebody has a draw for right where you wanted it and has never been up there in their entire life.. That pisses me right off

or how about guys who live a half days drive away and come up and kill MY moose :-P









:roll:

[ratherbefishin]

I'm not against prudent game management-but I'd just like some reassurance its working-and that should be increased harvest opportunities-especially when we only have half the number of hunters in the bush.I'd also like some better system of alloting draws-the ''group hunt ''was a good concept-but maybe we should go to something like what was posted how Alberta handles it-increased chances every year you are not drawn.I'd be more than happy with one moose for a 3 member group-or being offered increased odds if 3 guys said 1 moose was ennough,if it increased their odds by not going in for 2.But-unless we ask-chances are we won't get it-does anybody know if the FISH and GAME Department monitors these websites for input?

[ianwuzhere]

One week a year?? lemme guess you live on the lower mainland?..
right now the roads seem extremely busy with hunters to me and seems to be more all the time expecially as more roads are put in.
Its why they call it hunting i guess and not just shooting. sometimes you really have to work to harvest an animal and sometimes lucks on yer side. Ive been out tons this year and have seen tons of animals just not the right things - so i see your frustration when are unable to harvest an animal.
Ive got a shared hunt and we've been out many weekends lookin for the bull moose but still unable to locate it which is also frustrating at times, but i just enjoy being able to get out and see animals even if its not the ones im looking to harvest..
-We might just have to fill the freezer with fish instead.. ;)

[killman]

I think the people who live in the area should get theirs first.:redface:

[Sitkaspruce]

I don't bank on LEH, they are just a bonus.....

The generous open seasons we have in BC are pretty good, as long as you have the time to commit....

The last one I got was the year that they had the "stand in line cow/calf tags" at teh MoE office here in Cranbrook....

My hunting buddies Mom camped out all night in a lawn chair and got us 4 tags (only harvested 2 )....It was like she was waiting for Rolling Stones tickets or some damn thing...

Yup, it is just a bonus to get the draw, I never count on it. If you do not get a moose draw, take your week and go elk hunting, or shoot a couple of deer or....well I will let you figure it out. And there is a ton of GOS moose country to hunt in BC, just need to put your time in and learn it. And if you got a draw, there is no guarantee you will get one...the avg success in BC for moose is somewhere around 28%.

I have been 9 for 12 on moose draws in the last 13 years (did not put in this year as I knew I could not make it). I put in for a lower odd draw (less than 3-1) and then I learned the area. I am 100% success on those 9 draws. On the 4 years I did not get one, I went to the region 6 open season from Oct 20-26, went two for for on that hunt. I am not bragging or anything, I am showing that you can still kill a moose in a GOS and that if you find an area with low odds and learn it, you can also be successful.

By the way I am 1 for 26 years for Island elk, but I will keep puting in:razz::tongue:

For me the draw is just a bonus and I do not base my hunting around it. BC has too much GOS for me to base my whole hunting season on a random draw, and way too much new area for me to explore.

I do not know where I read it, but the Alberta draw will not work here in BC with the moose and such. I believe it was posted here sometime back when we had a person MOE try to answer our ?'s about LEH.

Cheers

SS

[cxvalleyman]

Well i got nil in 25 years. And you are crying with two draws in ten years.

[Ron.C]

As per above,

LEH is just a bonus.

[Gateholio]

I treat LEH like raffle tickets. Fun to buy, fun to anticipate..Every now and then I get lucky, most times I don't...

I've had 3 LEH draws in about 10 years.:p

[Dirty]

An LEH doesn't guarantee that you are going to harvest an animal. Just like an open season doesn't guarantee you are going to harvest an animal. If you rely on LEH for success you will forever be disappointed. The real success is getting out into the field and learning about an area where you enjoy to hunt. We are able to harvest 3 deer, an elk, and a moose in BC each yeah. There are places where you can easily harvest these with a little effort and a little time. I am talking generous seasons in Northern BC, Archery Season in the Kootenays, and Low Odds LEH in the Peace for Elk. If you really need the meat go out and buy a side of beef, it will cost you as much as driving up and road hunting a moose LEH. :razz:

[Brambles]

I get drawn a reasonable amount but nothing high odds.
1 moose
3-4 doe draws over the years
3-4 goat draws
1 grizz draw
and a hord of NIL's but they are a tough hunt.


But I apply and put in for almost every species each year. One year I got 4 draws. Some years I get zilch.

Although I don't set my hunting schedule in stone until after the draw, but I don't expect to get drawn either.

[Mr. Dean]

IF I want a bull-I'm not picky-a nice 3 or 4 year old will do nicely-do I have to shell out thousands of dollars and go with a guide who has an allotment?


I say the exact same thing for me wanting to hunt a Grizz. IMO, resi's should get SOME kind of priority,,, and no, having the lottery system isn't one (priority); it's spit in the face.

Hell, I'd even be willing to pay the same coin as the GO would, for that 1 little tag...... :frown:

[hunter1947]

I get a little down every years when I get the nil back every year.

But then I look at it this way when i don't get a draw.

I look forward to the areas that are open for GOS and concentrate on hunting them.
I am happy that I can still hunt areas throughout BC during the GOShttp://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[ratherbefishin]

Anybody who thinks its about getting ''free meat''is deluding themselves[ I spent about $2000 on gas and ferry fares this year-had a great hunt drifting the river-but no bulls even seen by 8 guys who hunted morning and evening for a week-we were probably a week early]. Nor am I talking about aplying for high odds hunts like grizzly,Vancouver Island Elk or bison-I'm talking about what used to used to be considered a staple of many people's diet-moose-hardly an endangered specie.

I enjoy getting out with my boys for a week in the bush-and I get a thrill out of hearing a bull answear a call-but at the same time its nice to THINK you might get a chance at taking a bull-even if you don't .I'm just not convinced the habitat is so poor, the moose population is so low in most of BC,and the numbers of hunters so great that we can only allot one''any bull'' ticket once every 5 years or so....and I've talked to a few guys who just don't bother to go any more -is that a contributing factor to declining hunting licence sales?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Don't forget that moose numbers took a substantial hit in both Reg 6 and 7 (some areas) two winters ago. Prior to that numbers were quite high....so most likely predator numbers were also high as well. Predator numbers might keep their come back slower than expected.

SSS

[Little Hawk]

Howdy RBF,

Have to concur with the rest of the boys here; getting an LEH draw is simply a bonus for me. I don't bother with low-odds draws like Island Elk any more and something usually comes my way every coupla'-three years. LEH failure will never stop me from hunting; there are simply too many other opportunities out there to ignore.

Yes, hunter numbers are declining and I believe THAT issue and (new-hunter recruitment) should be every BC Hunter's primary concern right now, not the staus of LEH sucess. With all the anti-hunting lobbiest's out there and whimsy politicians willing to bend to special interest groups - like a willow in the wind - our favorite pasttime, like our wild salmon, is tenuously close to becoming exinct. Think about that for a minute - not being able to hunt...

[steel_ram]

Maybe less hunters, but with access and mobility increased, whether by increased roads or the common use of ATV's, I suspect hunter success has increased and the, out of reach sanctuaries for game have decreased. Just a theory.

[ratherbefishin]

I'm NOT advocating seasons that would jeoprodise moose populations-which would be very short sighted,but at the same time, I'm a little suspicious of the''professional's'' estimates -case in point how they''predict'' salmon numbers....I guess what I'd like is confirmation that what they are doing in restricting moose harvest is actually working in increasing populations -and harvest opportunity-and do we really need to be so restrictive?How much is hunter harvest actually a factor in the general population-with road and rail line kill, habitat ,predators,weather ,disease and native harvest all added in?

[Mr. Dean]

Anybody who thinks its about getting ''free meat''is deluding themselves[ I spent about $2000 on gas and ferry fares this year-had a great hunt drifting the river-but no bulls even seen by 8 guys who hunted morning and evening for a week-we were probably a week early]. Nor am I talking about aplying for high odds hunts like grizzly,Vancouver Island Elk or bison-I'm talking about what used to used to be considered a staple of many people's diet-moose-hardly an endangered specie.

I enjoy getting out with my boys for a week in the bush-and I get a thrill out of hearing a bull answear a call-but at the same time its nice to THINK you might get a chance at taking a bull-even if you don't .I'm just not convinced the habitat is so poor, the moose population is so low in most of BC,and the numbers of hunters so great that we can only allot one''any bull'' ticket once every 5 years or so....and I've talked to a few guys who just don't bother to go any more -is that a contributing factor to declining hunting licence sales?

ABSOLUTELY!

As hunter47 states, only the ones that were willing to settle for 2nd's (left-overs), remained. IMO the LEH is a crippling factor for retention and recruitment and very likely unnecessary for many species and regions, at this present time.

Once upon a time it likely was a good thing. Times have changed....

[Geo.338]

I too was frustrated with only getting a moose tag once every 3 or 4 years .I have also seen areas that were open for any bull go to LEH .I truly believe that LEH is necessary for many areas otherwise there would be so much hunter pressure on some areas that the moose would not stand a chance .

I would not even bother to go north for immy moose or calfs .I do however seek out GOS for any bulls and concentrate on that.We have also started to put in for low odds draws and we get drawn almost every year .These are remote areas that is why the odds remain low.

Three of us have drawn 3 tags the last three years and GRizzly the last two years for two of us.

I hope that we never see the Alberta system here and I hope that the enhanced odds aspect gets tossed as well as this is unfair if this is to be a true lottery which it claims to be .

If a person is lucky enough to get back to back draws then so be it
but to penalize someone for previous success is not right .

[ratherbefishin]

moose ''stood a chance''and thrived for many years-with far more hunters in the field.What changed?There may be a case for selective GOS-but,I've talked to people in some to these areas that say they get huge pressure-resulting in reducing moose populations resulting in shutting it right down in subsequent years- could it be that it would be better to have a wider GOS area to choose from-and spreading out the hunters rather than concentrating them in small areas of GOS?
Again-we've had this management model for a long time now-has it resulted in increased populations and harvest opportunities?-because whether or not -hunting licences sold have been cut in half....

[bushpig slayer]

ihave been putting in for elk on vancouver island for 20+ years and have never got one where i know other hunters get repeat tags.i even put in where they do and still nothing.luck of the draw i guess.sucks to be me,so i know what you are harping about.

[6616]

IMO the LEH is a crippling factor for retention and recruitment and very likely unnecessary for many species and regions, at this present time.


I agree 100% Dean, it's one of the primary cause of hunters giving up the sport in my opinion, and research actually proves that to be correct.

I also agree, it's not necessary in many cases. Lots of the goat draws in the East Kootenay are not even fully subscribed to and residents are not meeting their target allocation. Why are they even on LEH? It's crazy to have a 12 week LEH season on goats when very few are even going to go up there in November. Why not a 4 or 5 week GOS instead?

Guaranteed success, forget it, success rates for the moose and goat hunts in the eK are 20 to 40 %. Even cow elk draws are only 60% successful most years. Want a guarantee, apply for a deer antlerless tag!

Two moose tags in 16 years for me, and that's better then some poor blokes I see so I'm not complaining about that, only complaining that LEH is away over used today. Due to reduced budgets in F&W and no money for inventory the Branch bio's are just scared $hitle$$ of GOS seasons. We all hate it like dog$hit I'm sure!

[6616]

Want a guarantee, apply for a deer antlerless tag

Come to think of it, why are Whitey Flat-tops even on LEH with the population explosions we have in the entire interior of BC. Why are we not managing WTD with an "any deer" GOS just like they do in Alberta????

[PGK]

Come to think of it, why are Whitey Flat-tops even on LEH with the population explosions we have in the entire interior of BC. Why are we not managing WTD with an "any deer" GOS just like they do in Alberta????

We are. Nov 10-20 most MU's in 7A.

I normally get one LEH per year. Be in antlerless deer, moose, elk up north, whatever. If you don't get draws, take a long look at the odds you're applying for. Probably higher than 5:1 I don't bother with ANY draws that are higher than 8:1

[Sitkaspruce]

Due to reduced budgets in F&W and no money for inventory the Branch bio's are just scared $hitle$$ of GOS seasons. We all hate it like dog$hit I'm sure!

That is one reason why we have LEH, but the biggest reason, in my opinion, is the almighty $$$$$$

Take the Peace LEH for cow elk last year. 1000 tags, 4-1 odds, so at $6 a pop, 4000x6 equals $24000 to the government with out a shot being fired, add another $25000 (1000 tagsx$25/tag), so total to the government of $49000 for the elk draw. Now add up all the LEH applications per year and you can see why it is profitable. I wonder what would happen if we stopped buy LEH for certain Species?????

I agree that some areas could probably with stand a GOS season, but it would last only a few years before we would be back on LEH. Access, all the toys we own to make hunting easier (GPS, RF, Radio's, Quads Etc), MPB and tough winters would bring the population back down. Hunting is not like it used to be.

SS

[dawn2dusk]

Yeah try and move to the US and see how good they got it. Here in BC we are spoiled if anything. $15 for a deer tag or whatever is i am not sure cause i spend more on beer in a night than i do on a tag. We also have lots of opportunities and access to crown land. Go hunt in europe and see what you have to access to and what it will cost. We have it awesome......for now.

[oldtimer]

63 years old. First moose draw this year. Had a few doe draws as well. Like Gatehouse said> treat it like the lottery. Mike

[ElkMasterC]

** Wonders how many people have talked to their Biologist for the area they plan to hunt Moose in **


**Wonderrssssss, he does..**

[6616]

That is one reason why we have LEH, but the biggest reason, in my opinion, is the almighty $$$$$$

Take the Peace LEH for cow elk last year. 1000 tags, 4-1 odds, so at $6 a pop, 4000x6 equals $24000 to the government with out a shot being fired, add another $25000 (1000 tagsx$25/tag), so total to the government of $49000 for the elk draw. Now add up all the LEH applications per year and you can see why it is profitable. I wonder what would happen if we stopped buy LEH for certain Species?????SS

I wonder how much it costs to process all those applications etc, or in other words what the actual net return to government is.....????

[ratherbefishin]

I suspect the serious hunters still hunt-but the casual guys-who would buy a licence and go out once or twice,just to get out in the bush, are the ones who decided with all the LEH restrictions, it just isn't worth it anymore.Another reason may be some antler restrictions [ie-tri palm]make it so guys don't want to make a mistake.Again-the question that doesn't seem to be addressed is-is the moose LEH system actually working?- and if so-there should be more harvest opportunities,and odds should be getting better to get a draw -especially with ''group'' hunts-even accepting one moose among 3 or 4 guys would be better than not getting a chance at all,which is an option I would like to see made available-you could opt for one moose tag for one hunter-one for two hunters-one for three,or one for four-with the odds increasing.

[Mr. Dean]

I suspect the serious hunters still hunt-but the casual guys-who would buy a licence and go out once or twice,just to get out in the bush, are the ones who decided with all the LEH restrictions, it just isn't worth it anymore.Another reason may be some antler restrictions [ie-tri palm]make it so guys don't want to make a mistake.Again-the question that doesn't seem to be addressed is-is the moose LEH system actually working?- and if so-there should be more harvest opportunities,and odds should be getting better to get a draw -especially with ''group'' hunts-even accepting one moose among 3 or 4 guys would be better than not getting a chance at all,which is an option I would like to see made available-you could opt for one moose tag for one hunter-one for two hunters-one for three,or one for four-with the odds increasing.


IIRC, our allotment #'s went up for several species and regions last year (?). I remember a bunch of us comparing draws in the leh 'thingy'.

[stickbow]

Well here some food for thought ,I have been applying for moose in the same mu. since 1994.Back then there were 50 bull tags to be had. The odds were at that time 3.1-1 .Now fast forward 14 years,keeping in mind hunter numbers have been on the decline,there now are 76 tags to be had yet the odds are now 6.4-1. Do the math if thats not a scam then I don't know what is.

[KevinB]

I wonder how much it costs to process all those applications etc, or in other words what the actual net return to government is.....????

Probably costs them money...:roll:...Tags on the other hand can make them more $$ - say in SS's example, instead of selling 1,000 tags and 4,000 LEH applications for a total of $49,000, they had a GOS and sold, say, 2,000 tags for $50,000 and definitely less overhead (I bet they might sell more than 2,000 tags). And maybe put in some access restrictions, or make the season fairly short or whatever, and maybe you still get a similar number of elk shot as you do now with the LEH giving out 1,000 authorizations. Maybe once a certain harvest limit has been met, then close the season down - that way anyone that wants to still can hunt elk there in the GOS, and you still have a mechanism for controlling the harvest numbers. I don't know, just throwing out food for thought.

It's obvious that in many instances, there are better ways of doing things than the LEH that do a lot more for retention and recruitment and general hunter happiness and still allow a sustainable harvest. The problem is, when the Wildlife Branch is as underfunded and understaffed as they are, the LEH is an easy way to take care of things and compared to using a bunch of varied approaches it is a lot simpler to administrate - every time you try to do something different, it increases your administrative burden and increases the chances that you might screw up, because you don't have enough $$ or people to be sure that the information you're basing decisions on is the best it can be. If I were a Bio, you bet I'd be a bit cautious about responding to hunter pressure and opening up more liberal seasons, without being confident in my data - if things went south, the fault wouldn't be mine, really, but guess who would get the blame ...sure as heck not the upper echelons! Luckily right now we seem to have a lot of very strong game populations coupled with lower hunter numbers (although as others have rightly pointed out, there is a lot more access etc. too) and if we're going to try experimenting, now would be a pretty good time to try it...

[6616]

Probably costs them money...:roll:...Tags on the other hand can make them more $$ - say in SS's example, instead of selling 1,000 tags and 4,000 LEH applications for a total of $49,000, they had a GOS and sold, say, 2,000 tags for $50,000 and definitely less overhead (I bet they might sell more than 2,000 tags). And maybe put in some access restrictions, or make the season fairly short or whatever, and maybe you still get a similar number of elk shot as you do now with the LEH giving out 1,000 authorizations. Maybe once a certain harvest limit has been met, then close the season down - that way anyone that wants to still can hunt elk there in the GOS, and you still have a mechanism for controlling the harvest numbers. I don't know, just throwing out food for thought.

It's obvious that in many instances, there are better ways of doing things than the LEH that do a lot more for retention and recruitment and general hunter happiness and still allow a sustainable harvest. The problem is, when the Wildlife Branch is as underfunded and understaffed as they are, the LEH is an easy way to take care of things and compared to using a bunch of varied approaches it is a lot simpler to administrate - every time you try to do something different, it increases your administrative burden and increases the chances that you might screw up, because you don't have enough $$ or people to be sure that the information you're basing decisions on is the best it can be. If I were a Bio, you bet I'd be a bit cautious about responding to hunter pressure and opening up more liberal seasons, without being confident in my data - if things went south, the fault wouldn't be mine, really, but guess who would get the blame ...sure as heck not the upper echelons! Luckily right now we seem to have a lot of very strong game populations coupled with lower hunter numbers (although as others have rightly pointed out, there is a lot more access etc. too) and if we're going to try experimenting, now would be a pretty good time to try it...

Very good points, I agree 100%.

[KevinB]

Well here some food for thought ,I have been applying for moose in the same mu. since 1994.Back then there were 50 bull tags to be had. The odds were at that time 3.1-1 .Now fast forward 14 years,keeping in mind hunter numbers have been on the decline,there now are 76 tags to be had yet the odds are now 6.4-1. Do the math if thats not a scam then I don't know what is.

Stickbow, your assumption that just because hunter numbers are declining overall, you should somehow be seeing better odds in LEH hunts doesn't work and it's screwing up your math. Think of it this way, then re-do that math...in 1994, Region 5 was on a GOS for any bull, and there were less restrictive seasons in many other areas as well. Some goes for other species in many other areas. There was a lot more opportunity for hunters to go out and get something (any bull moose, any muley buck, 2 whitetail bucks in the OK, etc) without feeling like they needed to bother with LEH. Fast forward to 2008, you are more limited to where you can just go out and shoot any bull in a GOS, deer seasons are a lot more restricted, etc etc. - LEH has become the order of the day if you really want to maximize your hunting opportunities, especially for Moose. Bottom line, your LEH hunt has a lot more hunters applying for it, and you end up with worse odds even with more allocations than there were before.

I just see that as another reason why LEH isn't working well for us - fund the wildlife branch better, allow them to get much better data , and then if the data shows it to be okay, open up more and longer GOS seasons all over the place, open up more and way longer youth and seniors seasons, spread the pressure around instead of concentrating it, use some creative means to control harvest in areas where and if that is needed, and I bet you'd see a lot more hunters. And I don't think you'd see that huge of a spike in harvest number- after all, it it the serious hunters, who are the ones still hunting, that probably account for the lion's share of harvest anyway - all the other potential hunters, new hunters, once-in-awhile hunters,and hunters that have quit because of restrictive seasons and/or LEH, will probably be happy with a deer in the freezer once in awhile, and if some of them become more serious than that, then great, we'll need them in the future!

[stickbow]

Hey KevinB, I did the math your way and that adds up too,but I still like the scam theory :mrgreen:

[Gunner]

my Luck in the Leh hasn't been too bad over the years, i did get skunked this year i was a little pissed when i checked on the computer. what really gets me pissed is when some one tells me ya i got a moose draw this year and im not going to use it i hear this every year, this is what got to change some how so we could put these tags back into the system and people could take a last second draw and make atempt to hunt the draw THis is what gets me POed!I ran into a party near Pink Mountain 2 weeks ago that had draws for the PG area,with no intention of using them.This is the 2nd time in 4 years they've done this,and it screws those people who applied in their area unsuccessfully.They also take up space(and animals!) where they were hunting when they SHOULD have been in their draw area.I don't see any way around this though,it's legal just not ethical in my mind. Gunner

[rocksteady]

Hunter numbers down.....LEH odds are up...

I wonder how many people are applying for LEH and if Unsuccessful are not bothering to even buy a hunting licence....

I guess there is no real way to compare that......Unless the MOE database is able to cross reference them....

Would be interesting to see if there are people that do this and the % of all LEH applicants that don't bother to hunt after....

[Sitkaspruce]

Hunter numbers down.....LEH odds are up...

I wonder how many people are applying for LEH and if Unsuccessful are not bothering to even buy a hunting licence....

I guess there is no real way to compare that......Unless the MOE database is able to cross reference them....

Would be interesting to see if there are people that do this and the % of all LEH applicants that don't bother to hunt after....

Add to this list all the anti's who apply and then throw them away i successful. I have put a couple people through CORE who told me at the end that they had no interest in hunting, just wanted to get the LEH so some animal would not be shot. Also know a couple of others who apply every year with the intension of saving an animal.

I do believe that it is a low % who do this, but it does increase the odd is someplaces.

SS

[BCrams]

For those who were around long enough to remember - there was also an "open bull moose" season for moose in 7A around PG in the 80's at the end of the year. They got rid of it in the late 80's.

I beleive there are more moose now in 7A than when there was an open bull season. I cannot remember though if there was a calf season as well back then as we have now.

[Jetboater]

every year I am let down, I never get my Kamloops sheep draw, or kootenay moose draw, Grandby Goat draw...Kwatna Grizzly, and pink Mountain Buffalo .... the whole system must be screwed up.....to the people that complain .... I say suck it up and find a spot that works for you....

[6616]

Hunter numbers down.....LEH odds are up...
I wonder how many people are applying for LEH and if Unsuccessful are not bothering to even buy a hunting licence....
I guess there is no real way to compare that......Unless the MOE database is able to cross reference them....
Would be interesting to see if there are people that do this and the % of all LEH applicants that don't bother to hunt after....

The MOE data base has all this info and I have a spreadsheet for each LEH species (region 4 only) that was given to us during the Allocation Policy Review process. These spreadsheets have data from 1990 to 2003, I do not have the complete data from 2003 to 2008. Here is the summary of statistics for Region 4. These are the totals for the 13 year period.
I did not include bighorn sheep since most of the region 4 hunts are GOS.

Moose:
7606 authorizations were issued out of 87,228 applicants for an average draw odds of 11.47 to 1.
There were 6130 of the people with authorizations that bought tags, or 80.6% of them over the 13 year period.
These hunters killed a total of 3234 moose over the 13 years for an average success rate of 52.8%

Grizzly Bears:
3823 authorizations awarded, 21,835 applicants, draw odds 5.7:1
2118 of the 3823 bought tags or 55.4% of them.
540 bears were killed for an average success rate of 25.5%.
Data over a 13 year period.

Mountain Goats:
23,218 authorizations were issued over the 13 year period to 49,433 aplicants for an average draw odds of 2.1:1.
9043 of those authorization holders bought tags, or 38.9% of them.
4036 goats were killed for an average success rate of 44.6%

The participation rate for goats declined steadily over the 13 year period. By 2003 there were 1658 successful applicants, but only 437 of them reported actually hunting goats, or a mere 26.3% of them...!
WTF is going on????

Are nearly 74% of the goat authorizations currently being non-used by anti-hunters. I really doubt it, so why are only 26% (current figure) of those drawn for goats bothering to even use them???? Are resident hunters too old on average to hunt goats, are they just not interested, if so why do they even apply? Is there really that many hunters playing the lottery game with LEH with little or no actual intention of using these authorizations. Is it too much access restrictions? Is it because people apply for these hunts not knowing about access or difficulty levels which later turns them off? WTF is it, I'd sure like to know, so would the regional bio.

The result of this is that residents cannot utilize their allocated share of the AAH and eventually that allocation may be transfered to non-residents.

I have the data for other regions but it's in these huge cumbersome multi-page MOE spreadsheets and I didn't try to seperate it for all 8 regions, but the numbers show similar trends in most regions. Are hunters a dying breed, sure looks like it...!

[Geo.338]

I think that people are putting in for Goats as well as Elk and Moose .When they do not get the Moose or Elk they are not going to go all that way for just a Goat .

[Gun Dog]

I think a lot of hunters dream of that moose or grizzly or goat hunt but the logistics of making it happen (time off work, finding partners, doing recon, keeping the spouse happy) makes it not happen.

[PGK]

For those who were around long enough to remember - there was also an "open bull moose" season for moose in 7A around PG in the 80's at the end of the year. They got rid of it in the late 80's.

I beleive there are more moose now in 7A than when there was an open bull season. I cannot remember though if there was a calf season as well back then as we have now.

What's the feeling downtown about going back to that season?

[rocksteady]

I think a lot of hunters dream of that moose or grizzly or goat hunt but the logistics of making it happen (time off work, finding partners, doing recon, keeping the spouse happy) makes it not happen.

I have succesfully drawn goat tags in the past, but ended up never going, for different reasons...

Shoulder injury 1 year

Got my elk and an early season whitey, so really did not need the meat, as well it had been a hell of a fire season (2003) and I was absolutely fatigued....

I do not make a habit of it, but it does happen

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I've been guilty of getting a few Koot Goat draws and not going.

I'm only interested in a late season billy and have focused on going Nov Long weekend or towards the end of November. Sometimes my partners have bailed but mostly it has been the weather forecast that has been unfavorable. Having an extra day off on the long weekned has mostly been burned chasing local deer.
That's the way it goes for late season goat hunting. Pretty much have to live a lot closer and go when the weather permits.

Most of those odds have been 1.5:1 or less.

Most of those years I've bought a tag....since it's only valid after a couple of days.

One of these years it will come together:?.

SSS

[resqmedic02]

I agree with KILLMAN. People who live in the area should have first choice on all game. I live in the cariboo for the hunting, fishing and outdoors.
If I wanted highrises, concrete and polution I would move to the lower mainland....
Why should I have to travel many hours to another region with a GOS when I have the same game here in my backyard but am not allowed to hunt it....\

I too disagree with those who put in for draws with no intemtion of using them.
I have suggested that the MOE keep track of successful draws which purchase license/tag and those that are successful draws with no purchse of license/tag. I say boot the ones with no license tag purchase and let other have a chance.
I too have had only one successful draw since the dawn of time...



Just my opinion.

[Vader]

You will never see that. Bad for the economy.. the more hunters move around... the more they stimulate the provinces economy.. spread the wealth program is what we have..
Any data on LEH geographical assignments? As in .. if there are a guesstimated, (not an accurate number I know), 25,000 hunters in East kootenays applying for moose tags locally.. how many did they get compared to the rest of the province applying for the same area for
moose? How many out of area hunters apply for this region by comparrison?
I can see where the numbers would be skewed in the north for moose as I believe most of the province applies for those LEH's due to the higher number of available tags. If you are a local here I think the percentages are not in your favor although numerically they shopuldn't be any different than anybody elses chances.

You can make a conspiracy out of just about anything a government does.

[KevinB]

The participation rate for goats declined steadily over the 13 year period. By 2003 there were 1658 successful applicants, but only 437 of them reported actually hunting goats, or a mere 26.3% of them...!
WTF is going on????

Great post 6616...
My reaction would be...if the odds are generally good, and the participation of even those drawn is so low then why the F are these hunts still on LEH??? :confused: With such a low utilization rate, is it possible that even with a GOS residents wouldn't hit their allocation numers...or am I wrong here???

Are nearly 74% of the goat authorizations currently being non-used by anti-hunters. I really doubt it, so why are only 26% (current figure) of those drawn for goats bothering to even use them???? Are resident hunters too old on average to hunt goats, are they just not interested, if so why do they even apply? Is there really that many hunters playing the lottery game with LEH with little or no actual intention of using these authorizations. Is it too much access restrictions? Is it because people apply for these hunts not knowing about access or difficulty levels which later turns them off? WTF is it, I'd sure like to know, so would the regional bio.

I'd guess the same things as the last few posters? You see this happening all over the place for lots of different hunts - prime example that comes to mind is the 3-46 bull moose draw. The strength of the LEH system (everyone can apply for anything they want) is also one of it's big weaknesses.

The result of this is that residents cannot utilize their allocated share of the AAH and eventually that allocation may be transfered to non-residents.

I'd again say then WTF are goats still on LEH in reg. 4? I don't understand the reasoning there (please enlighten me, I don't know anything about the specific situation other than what I've read on these boards)...Also, more generally but I think this is important, is that to a lot of us on these forums this outcome is obvious, and we tend to take it for granted that most hunters realize that this would be the result of unused allocations. But in reality most hunters have no clue how things work, and have no clue what the consequences of unused resident allocations might be. People have to be made aware that this is going on, and a few of us yakking about it in these forums ain't gonna do it. If the Ministry is so worried about this, then WTF aren't they doing more about - spell it out in big bold notices all over the LEH synopsis, and on the LEH cards, for example - don't pussyfoot around. Or think of some incentive (other than saying 'please') to encourage successful draw holders to actually go use their draws - maybe for hunts where the residents are underusing their allocations, create an system that somehow gives hunters that harvest in these hunts, enhanced odds in other LEH hunts? Or those that don't utilize their draws, get their odds reduced in other LEH hunts? Maybe underutilized hunts should be more expensive to enter. People might scream "not fair" but in reality if something like this isn't done we stand to lose a lot more. Pretty quickly, I bet you'd see a reduction in the number of 'casual' applicants for these hunts that are underutilized, such that there could be an increase in GOS's (might take a few or several years), and in the end an increase in hunters utilizing our share of our allocations?? does that sound far-fetched at all??? Or are there special-interest hunting lobbies preventing things like this from happening?

I have the data for other regions but it's in these huge cumbersome multi-page MOE spreadsheets and I didn't try to seperate it for all 8 regions, but the numbers show similar trends in most regions. Are hunters a dying breed, sure looks like it...!

I don't believe hunters are choosing to be a dying breed but there are a lot of circumstances that are killing us off and some out of the box thinking is needed to remedy this...if what we are doing now isn't working, then change what we are doing.


rant over...:?

[boxhitch]

Just a WAG here, but possibly the LEH is used to distribute pressure/effort. Goats populations are suseptable to over harvest.
Same goes for moose. If Reg 3 or 5 were GOS, who from the LML would travel to 7, especially with todays travel costs ?
The increase in odds in some hunts bears this out too. Why apply for a remote hunt if it isn't in the budget ? My G Bear apps go to an area I know I will get to, with or without a partner.

No, hunting isn't what it used to be. Average age is up, access methods have changed, development in habitat changes access, predator numbers are up everywhere while calf/lamb/kid/fawn survival is down ......

The points that I see having the most impact on satisfaction with the LEH system are
- the inability for managers to react and change available permit numbers to reflect interest and success. Bison is a good example, though recent changes are good.
- LEH hunts with poor effort may be too short to allow hunter participation. Its already LEH so why only a 2 week window ?

[6616]

rant over...:?

Yes Kevin, I believe it's possible that some of these hunts would come short of meeting resident allocation even if they were GOS. Some of these areas are tough terrain and hard to get into. Many also have access management measures in place. Some years there is no resident harvest at all in some of these areas. There just seems like there is no good solid justification at all for them to be on LEH. I would guess they are on LEH simply because that provides an overall cap on potential harvest and thus gives the regional biologists some comfort that an over-harvest can never occur even if that's only a remote possibility.

I agree, there needs to be a method to discourage the "casual" applicants, but I also believe the first thing that should be done is to review all LEH hunts in BC and get rid of LEH where it's not decisively required. There are many other management strategies that can be utilized to control harvest rates and these seem to have been forgotten about completelly. LEH should be the "last resort" after other strategies have proved to be insufficient. Does a East Kootenay goat hunt need to be three months long and on LEH, or would it be better for it to be 1 month long and on GOS? Could the LEH hunts be GOS for archery or for youths? Does an area with strict access management measures in place need to be on LEH?

I'll bet a review like that would cut the number of LEH hunts down by 1/3 to 1/2.

AS Boxhitch infers, LEH has it's legitimate purpose, and distribution of pressure is a very useful and important factor. There are many hunts in BC that always will be, and always should be on LEH, but I feel we've over-used LEH in BC, or that we've resorted to using it as a crutch to avoid other more intensive and expensive management strategies, and/or to compensate for poor inventory data, and that this is costing residents hunting opportunities.

[Mr. Dean]

I agree with KILLMAN. People who live in the area should have first choice on all game. I live in the cariboo for the hunting, fishing and outdoors.
If I wanted highrises, concrete and polution I would move to the lower mainland....
Why should I have to travel many hours to another region with a GOS when I have the same game here in my backyard but am not allowed to hunt it....\


A pleasant reminder that 'it' isn't YOUR backyard.... I live in BC because I like what it has to offer too all it's residents.

If I wanted stubble and potash; I'd live in Saskatchewan. :wink:

Don't forget that the LML exists to supply all of the province with services of one type or another. You are as guilty as I for it's existence. Take a look around; how many products and services are at your disposal that weren't handled or manipulated by a person that doesn't reside here (LML)?

Call it a symbiotic relationship. Fairness of that relationship would end once we limited the movements of one another and/or started to pull cords and turn off switches. As long as provincial taxation is paid and collected, BC'ers will maintain the right/privilege of taking in THEIR backyard.

Now if you really want to create a 'your own backyard',,, you could start to lobby a petition for you and your community to separate,,,, I guess. :smile:

[Mr. Dean]

AS Boxhitch infers, LEH has it's legitimate purpose, and distribution of pressure is a very useful and important factor. There are many hunts in BC that always will be, and always should be on LEH, but I feel we've over-used LEH in BC, or that we've resorted to using it as a crutch to avoid other more intensive and expensive management strategies, and/or to compensate for poor inventory data, and that this is costing residents hunting opportunities.


10-4 Rodger that!

[moosinaround]

I'm right ticked off with the LEH system-in 10 years I've had only 2 draws-and one moose.I'm 61-so according to logistics-I have about a life expectancy of about 15 years-which means I might get 2 or 3 more draws in my lifetime-if I'm lucky.Yes,I can go and hunt the early season-with flies and hornets-or I can shoot a calf-or try for the illusive ''immature''.This year we went up to the ''any bull'' area on the Yukon -BC border-1400 miles drive-and a week early.I probably drove past 2000 miles of prime moose country-but it may as well been on the moon[yes we saw moose,coming and going]IF I want a bull-I'm not picky-a nice 3 or 4 year old will do nicely-do I have to shell out thousands of dollars and go with a guide who has an allotment?

Maybe if I lived where I could hunt moose every weekend,and luck into an immature-it wouldn't be so bad-but I've got just one week a year to go moose hunting-I like hunting in early October when the weather gets colder-but something just doesn't seem right about this system-are moose populations REALLY that low in British Columbia we have to be so restrictive of it-especially when hunter numbers are about half what they were 30 years ago?[Even choosing low odds areas and group applications doesn't seem to help much]

Anyway-thats my rant....and frustration with the system-anybody else feel the same way?[and is this one reason for the declining numbers of hunting licences sold?]
Hell, LEH is one thing, but i am PISSED OFF at lotto 649!!!! I have been buying these rotten lottery tickets for 30 freakin years!!! Throw me a bone already!! Wheres my million bucks?? I got 25 more years before retirement and I have a lot of plans not payed for yet!! Its MY TURN!!! Thats what I feel like ranting about!!! :wink: Moosin

[chinooker]

LEH is crap it is nothing more than a lazy approach to wildlife management!!!:mad:

[doubled]

That is why is is called a lottery. Sure odds and ratios come into play but you have to remember it is a draw not a guarantee. I have been entering these for 15 years now and have gotten 3 deer draws and 1 moose group draw.

[6616]

A pleasant reminder that 'it' isn't YOUR backyard.... I live in BC because I like what it has to offer too all it's residents.

If I wanted stubble and potash; I'd live in Saskatchewan. :wink:

Don't forget that the LML exists to supply all of the province with services of one type or another. You are as guilty as I for it's existence. Take a look around; how many products and services are at your disposal that weren't handled or manipulated by a person that doesn't reside here (LML)?

Call it a symbiotic relationship. Fairness of that relationship would end once we limited the movements of one another and/or started to pull cords and turn off switches. As long as provincial taxation is paid and collected, BC'ers will maintain the right/privilege of taking in THEIR backyard.

Now if you really want to create a 'your own backyard',,, you could start to lobby a petition for you and your community to separate,,,, I guess. :smile:

Not to mention that us southern drylanders like to go out to the coast and catch a Tyee occasionally, or go up north stone sheep hunting so it works both ways.....! Coast people like to come to the interior to hunt, go house boating on Shuswap Lake, sun themselves on the beaches of Okanagan Lake, etc. The resources of BC belong to all citizens equally regardless of locations, and all citizens have an equal voice in how they're managed. I believe I have equal "say" in how coho salmon, stone sheep, and East Kootenay elk are managed, no matter where Ilive in BC. To have it any other way would be blatantly unfair and undemocratic.

[6616]

Hell, LEH is one thing, but i am PISSED OFF at lotto 649!!!! I have been buying these rotten lottery tickets for 30 freakin years!!! Throw me a bone already!! Wheres my million bucks?? I got 25 more years before retirement and I have a lot of plans not payed for yet!! Its MY TURN!!! Thats what I feel like ranting about!!! :wink: Moosin

Good rant Moosin, I won ten bucks once, I guess that means I've had my chance and blew it,,,,, dag nab it...!

[boxhitch]

The resources of BC belong to all citizens equally regardless of locations, and all citizens have an equal voice in how they're managed. I believe I have equal "say" in how coho salmon, stone sheep, and East Kootenay elk are managed, no matter where Ilive in BC. To have it any other way would be blatantly unfair and undemocratic.

In a bubble world maybe, but not here in BC today. Local meetings have local input, which may or not fit with the BCWF ideal.

[bighornbob]

I agree with KILLMAN. People who live in the area should have first choice on all game. I live in the cariboo for the hunting, fishing and outdoors.
If I wanted highrises, concrete and polution I would move to the lower mainland....
Why should I have to travel many hours to another region with a GOS when I have the same game here in my backyard but am not allowed to hunt it....\
Just my opinion.

So using your analogy if you get cancer and have to go to a cancer clinic in Vancouver or kelowna, you can wait your turn behind all the people that live in the town where the cancer clinics are as they get first dibs becuase they live there. Hope your kids never have to use Childrens hospital in Vancouver as it should not be allowed as you chose to live in the sticks:rolleyes:

BHB

[resqmedic02]

I figured I would PO a few people with my statement. I did not say that I do not welcome hunters from other areas, what I stated was that those that live in a particular management area should have first choice. I would accept a 50/50 split on the LEH's between locals and out of MU, not the current 80/20 in favor of out of MU. Although I would like to see more GOS as this would benifit all hunters in this province. Numbers are declining (hunters) and more GOS would more than likely up these.
I work in the collision industry and I do anywhere from 3 to 12 animal hit estimates a week. Most of these are deer, but moose, wolves, bears and cougars have been hit also. With one shop doing this many estimates just for animal hits wouldn't one say that there are lots of deer out there. Now multiply those figures by 4 more bodyshops in town, thats a lot of animal hits. There are also many that are never reported/claimed for damages.


No Hard feelings, just miss hunting the good ol days....

[boxhitch]

I would accept a 50/50 split on the LEH's between locals and out of MU, not the current 80/20 in favor of out of MU.
Seems to be some misinformation here. There is no split in the current LEH system. Everyone has equal chances.



With one shop doing this many estimates just for animal hits wouldn't one say that there are lots of deer out there.
Also indicates how many idiot drivers are on the highways driving at speeds with no regard for the presence of wildlife.
Maybe Walt Disney should do a cartoon showing the carnage around the province.

[Sitkaspruce]

I figured I would PO a few people with my statement. I did not say that I do not welcome hunters from other areas, what I stated was that those that live in a particular management area should have first choice. I would accept a 50/50 split on the LEH's between locals and out of MU, not the current 80/20 in favor of out of MU.

Tell that to your local gas station, food store amd others who rely on the influx of hunters who come up to "YOUR" area to hunt. I bet they would love that. I know the small town I lived in estimated that hunters brought in ~ 3/4 of a million $$$ in to the local economy for the LEH moose season and calf season. LEH is a lottery and I do not see why you (locals) should have any more chance over anybody else for the draws.

Although I would like to see more GOS as this would benifit all hunters in this province. Numbers are declining (hunters) and more GOS would more than likely up these.

Maybe, although I do not believe that LEH is the only problem with declining hunter #'s. Ageing demagraphics, high fuel costs, locals who do not welcome out of town hunters, cost of gear and a ton of other reason are also in the mix

I work in the collision industry and I do anywhere from 3 to 12 animal hit estimates a week. Most of these are deer, but moose, wolves, bears and cougars have been hit also. With one shop doing this many estimates just for animal hits wouldn't one say that there are lots of deer out there. Now multiply those figures by 4 more bodyshops in town, thats a lot of animal hits. There are also many that are never reported/claimed for damages.

Not sure what you mean buy this. Are you suggesting that we shoot more deer?????
No Hard feelings, just miss hunting the good ol days....

When was the good old days??? I have been hunting for 30 years and still enjoy the hunt as much, if not more, than the good old days.

Lastly, where is home??? Kind of curious as to what LEH you are talking about.

I am ranting because I am getting tired of the complaints about LEH. If your whole hunting existance is based on the LEH, then your are truely missing out on the best hunting in NA. BC has the best GOS in NA and also some of the cheapest. I cannot think of one place in BC where there is a GOS for at least two species of big game, most have a lot more.

Treat LEH for what it is, a bonus lottery, and if you get a NIL, then plan your hunting season around what this great province has to offer.

And lastly, instead of bitching about it here, write letters to your local Bio, Regional manager and Victoria on your suggestions. Put them in the spotlight and ask THEM the questions you ask on here.

Rant Over, now back to resting my screwed back.

Cheers

SS

[PGK]

LEH is crap it is nothing more than a lazy approach to wildlife management!!!:mad:

Please explain how you would do better.

[6616]

In a bubble world maybe, but not here in BC today. Local meetings have local input, which may or not fit with the BCWF ideal.

You're right, regional advisory committees have lots of influence, and wildlife management is still largely a regional decision making process. I don't mind that a whole lot as long as they remember that hunting opportunities need to be open to all British Columbians.

The thing about local decisions like keeping the LEH for bull elk in the West Kootenay and managing for trophy bulls, is that it actually disfavors locals, most of the successful tag holders will always be out of region folks.

[6616]

SitkaSpruce is correct, there are multiple reasons for the decline of hunters. Firearms legislation could be one of the the biggest factors.

There's not much we can do about age demographics, gas prices, equipment prices, firearms legislation, etc, but there are other reasons for the decline of hunting that we "can" do something about.

These include removing unnecessary LEH, modifying regulations to attract new hunters, the availability and cost of CORE, etc, and if we're concerned we should be doing something about these things we have some control over.