Ignorant hunters

[chilcotin hillbilly]

As I was driving to work last week I stopped and talked to a couple of young guys from Abbotsford who were getting their horses ready to go up into the mountains looking for goats. these guys said they were going up over night to get a goat and planned on being out the next day. I told them good luck as the goat population is way down and the outfitter has had a had a tough time finding a billy to harvest the last few years. These guys went up and shot 2 nannies the following day, and ran into the outfitter on their way out. This was enough to piss anyone off. Two guys who knowingly harvest 2 nannies in an area which is weak on goats to begin with should not be allowed to hunt as they give hunters a bad name. If any of you know these 2 guys that shot these nannies on their way back from caribou hunting in the Itcha mountains give them a good hard kick in the junk for me and every other hunter in BC.

[mark]

While I agree with you, they're ethics are certainly lacking, technically they broke no laws! Its tough enough trying to get every hunter in BC to abide by the laws let alone have great ethics. I think a few of ya locals should be bitching to the regional bio to close the area or restrict it if the pop is hurting!
On a side note, the first time I went goat hunting I couldnt even tell the difference a nanny or a billy.:|

[In4TheHunt]

While I agree with you, they're ethics are certainly lacking, technically they broke no laws! Its tough enough trying to get every hunter in BC to abide by the laws let alone have great ethics. I think a few of ya locals should be bitching to the regional bio to close the area or restrict it if the pop is hurting!
On a side note, the first time I went goat hunting I couldnt even tell the difference a nanny or a billy.:|


For educational purposes...What is the differance, Nannie/billy????

It would be good to know..Maybe a pic or two

Thamks in advance
Cheers

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Mark. I am pretty sure these guys know the difference as they claim to have got a nice stone sheep this year as well. In4thehunt everything you need to know is in the hunting regs. These 2 hunters shot 2 goats out of a herd of 8, common sense says that they were not billies.

[In4TheHunt]

Oh OK. I havent done any goat hunting yet so I'm just hoping to learn something...Thanks for the direction.

[3kills]

everybodies view on ethics is different...these to guys could feel they did nothing wrong cuz they harvested to legal animals..and honestly if some one came up to me and kicked me in the junk for shootin legal game cuz it was again there ethics well then they better be ready to have a long sleep cuz i will knock there head off..




Mark. I am pretty sure these guys know the difference as they claim to have got a nice stone sheep this year as well.
that really doesnt mean they know the difference between a nanny and billy..one wold think they would knw the different but ur ASSUMEing that cuz they hunted sheep they know every thing bout goats

[Ike]

Hi all,
Yes that is a tough spot, I am just west of you Chilcotin Hillbilly and would be ticked if a hunting party knowingly shot a couple of nannies during the depressed population trend we are also seeing here (and it has happened in the past), especially if it was a quarter of the group.

However, the problem lies in that the rules do allow for harvest of nannies, and MoELP numbers and estimates are supposed to be solid enough to handle that sort of thing.

I also would be ticked to see an area that is currently open (where I can hunt them if I choose - got a nice billy several years ago BTW) go to LEH just because of such an occurrance. Would I call them unethical? I would say poor judgement and lack of consideration regarding the goat population and the rest of the hunting community. Likely they also thought harvesting a goat, any goat was most important thing and thus missed a very large part of the reason we all go hunting....the experience.

Maybe some sort of special rule would be in order to allow billies to be harvested but not nannies....not sure how that would work. Maybe something tied into the CI using adaptive management and a 'penalty system' for hunters shooting nannies.
Just my .02
Cheers

[Gr8 white hunter]

guy like that dont have any junk thats why they shoot nannies

[mainland hunter]

I believe, and may be wrong, that the only reason nannies are legal is because of the difficulty in telling them apart for many hunters. Hunters are still asked to select males and leave the nannies.

[reach]

Mark. I am pretty sure these guys know the difference

In that case they are not "ignorant" - they are exactly the opposite. Ignorant means "unknowing". If they had shot the nannies thinking they were billies and not knowing there was a difference, then they would be "ignorant".

I've thought about goat hunting myself, but I don't believe I would be able to tell them apart so I haven't gone.

[ElkMasterC]

If you're hunting full curl rams, you should know what that definition means, for Bighorn and thinhorn

If you're hunting 3/4 curl it's even harder. if you don't know don't shoot.

If you're hunting goats, you should know how to tell a Billy from a Nanny.

Like Reach said, I'm not that good yet, so i don't hunt 'em.

And yes, i think it's ALL about Ethics. Goats are very sensitive to harvest, and if you don't wanna take the time to learn about the animal you're harvesting, then take a camera, and post some great Horn porn for us all! ;-)

'Nuff said.

[hunter1947]

Its just a shame the the wildlife management does not see the shortage of the goats in this one area ,if your going to kick any buddy in the **** ,it best be done to the management that allowed to nannies to be harvested from this region.

[Geo.338]

I shot my first goat last season .I watched 3 goats for a long time one was obviously a nanny and kid .Much higher on the hill was a lone goat ,Larger than the others .I examined it and decided it was a billy .When I rolled the goat over I was sickened to find it was a nanny.

This area gets little or no pressure on the Goat population but I still do not feel good about it.

Maybe there should be some kind of rule that states if you kill a nanny you can not hunt goats for a season or two.

Or one day we may see LEH for all goats in B.C.

[David Heitsman]

The reason nannies are open is to avoid the likely confiscation of all these goats shot from the bottom. It's pretty hard to sex them unless you can look even at them for the curl of the horn or the narrowing of the area between the bases or to see the swollen black glands behind the horn.

These glands are virtually impossible to see unless you have elevation or the goats are grazing entirely unaware of your presence and they drop their head to feed.

If they were taken from a herd though, the highest probability is that they are nannies.

That being said, I let a friend of mine take a lone old 10" nanny a few years ago. We were in an area with bountiful goats and yet i couldn't find any billies over 3 -4 years of age. She's a beautiful trophy today. I have forgotten how she aged out.

It's a shame they took two if the area is struggling. Perhaps the department making the rules there is aware of more herds in the GMU
than the public is knows about. Otherwise likely an LEH would have been administered by now. They seem to really be watching goats carefuly.

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Judging billies and nannies is a tough job if the goats are alone. Mistakes can happen. One of these guys had hunted goats before up the same area and harvested a goat five years ago. Shooting two goats out of a herd of eight is just stupidity. It is obvious that the goats were not Billies.If an outfitter takes to many females he will lose his Quota and be required to take an goat identification coarse before the following season.

[steel_ram]

The only reason it isn't illegal to shoot nannies is because the difference between male and female is not obvious or guaranteed. Hunters are requested to shoot males in hopes of protecting the fragile, yet sustainable population.

Thinner horns with a bit of a kink in the curve for females, as opposed to heavier more evenly curved horns for males. Males are more likely to be solitary, as females are more likely to be in groups.

The cost of shooting nannies. A reduction in opportunities foe everyone. Unfortunately many don't care about future opportunities for others as long as they get theirs.

[rocksteady]

Playing devils advocate here, just to show a differing point of view, not to stir the pot....

I hunt for meat, horns are a bonus..

I have hunted goats and have harvested "dry" nannies. I will not shoot a goat with kids....However it was excellent eating..I have eaten rutted up , ancient old billy..and it is crap...

I have an ethical issue with someone who kills a mature billy, for the sole purpose of a head mount....If you shoot it, you should eat it..

Selectively harvesting a dry nanny, in an area where the population is not sufferring, in order to provide good eating for my family, I do not find unethical.....

[goatdancer]

Those guys should have snuck up to the goats and checked under the belly to see if they had a sac. Usually goats in groups are girl goats. Those guys probably just flock shot into the goat pile and picked the 2 they liked. By the way, I did bag a goat a few years ago in the McBride area. Nice young billy just under 9" horns. He looks great on the wall and the meat was delicious. It was tough cause the first shot was at a distance of about 40 feet and the second at about 50 yards.

[steel_ram]

Define dry nanny? Kids can be lost over the summer. How can one be sure?

The Ministry biologists clearly do not want nannies taken, regardless of ones meat preference.

[rocksteady]

Define dry nanny? Kids can be lost over the summer. How can one be sure?


Usually a "dry" nanny (aka has no kids) is one that is off by herself, as compared to the usual scenario where the kids tend to hang around MOM...This is usually something you see in the spotting scope, before you even make the stalk....

You can never be 100% sure, but its like harvesting a whitey doe...If you watch her long enough and there is no fawns ripping around her, more than likely she is a "dry" doe....

[Mr. Dean]

:idea: For all you seasoned Goat Killers; instead of busting someones balls for taking a legally harvested animal,,, how about trying an 'educational' thread on why this shouldn't be done. Perhaps one that includes pics of trophy's (both sexes) that demonstrate some of the differences... Shows us some numbers/data that supports the local 'sensitivity' of the herd... Reproduction rates in general, or ????.

Lately there just seems to be (to many IMO) flame threads on goat and sheep harvests.... The 1st thing that comes to mind is an "Old Boys Club" that just sits back and sneers at others instead of attempting to lead through examples.

The more I think of it, the less I want to be a part of of it,,, which in turn makes me then think that this could be the goal - Limit the number of hunters wanting to participate... Discourage new participants.... Lets keep'em all to ourselves!

The whole thing is sickening; from the kills, to *some* of these posts. How about we try to make a difference?


Bitch-Slapping does little for making change.

Just my $00.02
Think about it, proceed as you wish.

[trailhunter]

amen Mr.Dean

[Jigger]

They were legally harvested, the guys worked for them, I say good for them..........

[steel_ram]

Not busting anyones balls! It's a well known issue with only one sure solution. No Hunting! The other solution is to hope hunters strive to be as sure as possible they are shooting billies. There is no guarantee short of very close inspection, so some loss of nannies has to be in the equation.

Of the few hunters I know that regularly take goats, none can say they've never taken a nanny. Some of the longest horns were nannies.

I would think two hunters heading up a Mountain for a quick goat hunt had every intention of shooting billies, but would rather shoot "any legal goat" than go home empty handed.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/docs/notice_to_mtn_goat_hunters.pdf

[1/2 slam]

Even in a healthy population I would not shoot a nanny. But that's just me.

[goatdancer]

The regs show some of the differences between the sexes. They also discourage the harvesting of females. One of the consequences of a high female harvest will be LEH.

Extremely good optics and a lot of time watching the animals will greatly help in the assessment of sex. However, nothing is guaranteed.

Just seems wrong to shoot 2 out of a herd of 8 when the odds were that they were both females.

[hunter1947]

If they want nannies reduced ,they should relocate them to a region that need them.

[3kills]

Define dry nanny? Kids can be lost over the summer. How can one be sure?

The Ministry biologists clearly do not want nannies taken, regardless of ones meat preference.
well if its legal by the regs its legal... ihave never goated hunted but i want to and when i do i will try hard to get a billy but if i shoot a nanny i shoot a nanny cuz its a legal animal...if they really dont want nannies to be taken then make all goats LEH and close the GOS...

[NaStY]

:idea: For all you seasoned Goat Killers; instead of busting someones balls for taking a legally harvested animal,,, how about trying an 'educational' thread on why this shouldn't be done. Perhaps one that includes pics of trophy's (both sexes) that demonstrate some of the differences... Shows us some numbers/data that supports the local 'sensitivity' of the herd... Reproduction rates in general, or ????.

Lately there just seems to be (to many IMO) flame threads on goat and sheep harvests.... The 1st thing that comes to mind is an "Old Boys Club" that just sits back and sneers at others instead of attempting to lead through examples.

The more I think of it, the less I want to be a part of of it,,, which in turn makes me then think that this could be the goal - Limit the number of hunters wanting to participate... Discourage new participants.... Lets keep'em all to ourselves!

The whole thing is sickening; from the kills, to *some* of these posts. How about we try to make a difference?


Bitch-Slapping does little for making change.

Just my $00.02
Think about it, proceed as you wish.

Thats the best post i have seen in quite a while.......

Although you did get a little carried away :)

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

I'm a lucky hunter who was drawn for goat in the koots. My tag is for either sex any age. it asks i take a billy, I have gone out 3 times now and have not seen the goat i want. But when i do be it male or female that is my choice and if i do want to take a dry nanny , i well . And if anyone wants to try and wreck my day with all this bull bring it on !! because i'm had my fill of these guys that think they own the game and the mountians

[jeeper]

:idea: For all you seasoned Goat Killers; instead of busting someones balls for taking a legally harvested animal,,, how about trying an 'educational' thread on why this shouldn't be done. Perhaps one that includes pics of trophy's (both sexes) that demonstrate some of the differences... Shows us some numbers/data that supports the local 'sensitivity' of the herd... Reproduction rates in general, or ????.

Lately there just seems to be (to many IMO) flame threads on goat and sheep harvests.... The 1st thing that comes to mind is an "Old Boys Club" that just sits back and sneers at others instead of attempting to lead through examples.

The more I think of it, the less I want to be a part of of it,,, which in turn makes me then think that this could be the goal - Limit the number of hunters wanting to participate... Discourage new participants.... Lets keep'em all to ourselves!

The whole thing is sickening; from the kills, to *some* of these posts. How about we try to make a difference?


Bitch-Slapping does little for making change.

Just my $00.02
Think about it, proceed as you wish.


A great response !

If its a legal kill then hard to fault them , but education about the issue may have caused them not to shoot a nanny ! bADMOUTHIN THEM AND CALLIN THEM NAMES AND THTHREATENNING TO BITHCSLAP THEM AND KICK THEM IN THE JUNK HAS NO PLACE TO SOMEONE HAVING SHOT A GAME ANIMAL LEGGALY !

Explain why the nannies shouldnt have been shot etc etc etc !


Bruce

[kootenay redneck]

to distiguish the billys from the nannys i've heard with very good optics that the billys horn base is wider than the nannys would be they tend to be out of the heard on a bluff and they piss all over them selves so there would be a little yellow on em, don't quote me on this i've never hunted goat.

[steel_ram]

...if they really dont want nannies to be taken then make all goats LEH and close the GOS...

That's exactly the way it's going thank you.

It is legal to take a nanny because it is near impossible to enforce a male only season. Similiar to bears.

Strong words from those that set limits would suggest they strongly discourage taking female goats. Because it's "legal", doesn't make intentionally shooting a nanny the right thing to do. If you inadvertantly take one thinking it's a billy, no worries.

A side note: How does one truly ID a dry nanny?
Is a nanny that loses it's kid to an eagle, a fall etc. etc. a dry nanny?

[steel_ram]

Explain why the nannies shouldnt have been shot etc etc etc !


Bruce


Bruce, reading "Wildlife Management 101" on page 15 and "Important notice . . ." on page 26 of this years Regulations synopsis may answer some of your questions. You may also note, that every goat open season listed through out the regulations also has the note, "Mountain goat populations are sensitive to harvest, Hunters are requested to select male mountain goat".

It's pretty clear what the wildlife managers are requesting. They're asking us nicely now.

I ask you, after reading that, what sort of responsible hunter would deliberately kill a female?

[lightmag]

this is a tough call, i've yet to hunt goat, was supposed to this year but it fell through, I will one day. I understand what people are saying about NOT taking a nanny, but that being said, they are legal, biologist's do their home work with pop. numbers and if they were that bad off, they would make nannies illegal to shoot, no matter how hard they are to tell apart, it's not their responsibility to tell them apart, it's ours! Sure a few nannies would get shot and left if made illegal, but there would be alot less killed then now when they are legal. That's my opinion.

[jeeper]

Bruce, reading "Wildlife Management 101" on page 15 and "Important notice . . ." on page 26 of this years Regulations synopsis may answer some of your questions. You may also note, that every goat open season listed through out the regulations also has the note, "Mountain goat populations are sensitive to harvest, Hunters are requested to select male mountain goat".

It's pretty clear what the wildlife managers are requesting. They're asking us nicely now.

I ask you, after reading that, what sort of responsible hunter would deliberately kill a female?


Thankyou for that reasonable and responsible response ! Im not a goat hunter and have never been goat hunting or I would have been aware of that !

We still dont know if it was a deliberate nannie kill ,, I know all things look like thats what they were doing ---IE an overnight hunt , shooting 2 outa 8 in a group etc ,

I still agree with Deans repsonse that instead of asking for BLOOD -making a post showing and educating people is the better way to go ! Just look at how many have repsonded and looked at this thread and dont know how to tell the Billies and Nannies apart ! Im sure just from this thread alone many have learned a lot and many wont shoot a Nannie understanding this !


If education wont work then it will end up having to go to leh draws ! And for those that hunt goats and do their best to harvest them resposnibly I feel for them if this happens and can understand their frustration .


Bruce

[ElkMasterC]

:idea: For all you seasoned Goat Killers; instead of busting someones balls for taking a legally harvested animal,,, how about trying an 'educational' thread on why this shouldn't be done. Perhaps one that includes pics of trophy's (both sexes) that demonstrate some of the differences... Shows us some numbers/data that supports the local 'sensitivity' of the herd... Reproduction rates in general, or ????.

Lately there just seems to be (to many IMO) flame threads on goat and sheep harvests.... The 1st thing that comes to mind is an "Old Boys Club" that just sits back and sneers at others instead of attempting to lead through examples.

The more I think of it, the less I want to be a part of of it,,, which in turn makes me then think that this could be the goal - Limit the number of hunters wanting to participate... Discourage new participants.... Lets keep'em all to ourselves!

The whole thing is sickening; from the kills, to *some* of these posts. How about we try to make a difference?


Bitch-Slapping does little for making change.

Just my $00.02
Think about it, proceed as you wish.

Well, then, fire it up!

Put your money where your mouth is Mr Dean.

I've seen from your posts that you're an articulate and passionate fan of education and the Nimrod pursuits. ;-) You have an excellent sense of humour, and passion for hunting. Take your own medicine.
Come on.
I dares ya.

[Mr. Dean]

Well, then, fire it up!

Put your money where your mouth is Mr Dean.

I've seen from your posts that you're an articulate and passionate fan of education and the Nimrod pursuits. ;-) You have an excellent sense of humour, and passion for hunting. Take your own medicine.
Come on.
I dares ya.

My post was from one standing on the outside looking in. In order for one to teach, one 1st. needs to understand. I wholeheartedly admit that I do not, so therefore, can't.

I (like others) have a tough time fully buying that these two goats were knowingly taken as nanny's. This is nothing more than a presumption at best and I could counter several other possibilities also, but they'd have as little meaning as well.

If they were (knowingly taken), well it is truly sad. The people involved obviously don't fully understand the magnitude of their actions ---------> The message isn't clear and/or isn't getting out. This is where the focus should lie.

I really like Goats and I absolutely have a 'hate-on' for the LEH system. One day I hope to have one on my wall, taken under a GOS, and hunted on my terms (non-guided). I also hope that many others are able to take that opprotunity as well. IMO, a better way of insuring this, is to better inform/educate the people's that 'seemingly' don't understand.

Building fences (calling out for a kick to the nads/supporting it) separates and divides... Solves nothing and looks bad (Old Boys Club/Nimrod Campaigns - dissensions amongst us, forever struggling and getting no where positive).
A welcoming hand, words of encouragement and direction, from my experience... Does wonders (hunters helping hunters,,, hunt - One group working towards a common goal).


Now how about a round of Kumbaya? :smile:


PS. Is there a DVD that details what to look for in harvesting/killing a goat in BC. Not some movie that shows an outfitter show-casing his tallents, but rather something that's educational and informative, directed at teaching?

Oh...... And is there one out there for sheep?

[Kirby]

PS. Is there a DVD that details what to look for in harvesting/killing a goat in BC. Not some movie that shows an outfitter show-casing his tallents, but rather something that's educational and informative, directed at teaching?

Oh...... And is there one out there for sheep?

Not sure about sheep but there is a video from MOE "Is it a billy or Nanny" it goes through how to ID from Horns, how they pee, etc etc. And it explains the biological reason behind the suggesting against taking a nanny.

Basically it's this: Nannys are the key to offspring production(same as Doe deer or Cow Elk/moose) one billy can "service" many nannies however a nanny can only have 1 or 2 offspring in Goat areas where survival is low(bad weather rough country etc etc) the successful reproduction(offspring that live to reproduce) is low, so every producing nanny is needed to maintain a healthy population or an increase.

Kirby

[Mr. Dean]

Not sure about sheep but there is a video from MOE "Is it a billy or Nanny" it goes through how to ID from Horns, how they pee, etc etc. And it explains the biological reason behind the suggesting against taking a nanny.

Basically it's this: Nannys are the key to offspring production(same as Doe deer or Cow Elk/moose) one billy can "service" many nannies however a nanny can only have 1 or 2 offspring in Goat areas where survival is low(bad weather rough country etc etc) the successful reproduction(offspring that live to reproduce) is low, so every producing nanny is needed to maintain a healthy population or an increase.

Kirby


Thanks, Kirby. I just found that it can be had from the BCWF also. If they endorse it, I'm sure it's good. I sorta understand the reasoning of attempting to kill Billy's only. While I accept it for what it is, I don't fully appreciate/understand it. Is it that goats just don't make good mothers?

[6616]

Basically it's this: Nannys are the key to offspring production(same as Doe deer or Cow Elk/moose) one billy can "service" many nannies however a nanny can only have 1 or 2 offspring in Goat areas where survival is low(bad weather rough country etc etc) the successful reproduction(offspring that live to reproduce) is low, so every producing nanny is needed to maintain a healthy population or an increase. Kirby

The above is actually true of all ungulate species more or less, 30% of any ungulate harvest being females would actually be a pretty significant ratio. It's more dangerous with goats because, as Kirby says, goats have a very high natural mortaility rate, a very low reproduction rate and are thus more sensitive to harvest then many other species. Other then that, goat population dynamics are not a whole lot different from other ungulate species.

Consider that if we want any particular herd or species of ungulates to expand we simply don't shoot the females. If the management objective is to stabilize or reduce a population the way to do that is simply to kill a controlled number of females. Allowing 30% of the deer, moose, or elk overall harvest to be females would certainly be considered a population management strategy and there is no reason to have a population management strategy for goats, yet we still shoot 30% females. The only reason for this is pure and simply because it's very hard for many hunters to tell the difference between nannies and billies.

The fact is that if we shot very few, or no nanny goats at all, the overall harvest of goats could be much larger and the whole province would probably still be on GOS for billy goats. Instead, the target harvest for billies has to be purposely depressed, simply because the F&W Branch knows that 30% of the intended billy harvest will inadvertently be nannies, and this inadvertent nanny harvest obviously has to be held to a sustainable level.

[Kirby]

Is it that goats just don't make good mothers?

Not at all, the reality is the goats live on the extremes, Extremly steep, extremely limited feed, extreme weather. The harder the conditions the lower the survival rate of offspring.

Just like if you have deer or moose living in less than ideal conditions their offspring survival will be lower than the ones living in the middle of a no predator, no snow, warm weather lots of food area.

More risk= more death

Kirby

[Mr. Dean]

Thanks guys.

Now its reported (opening post) that this particular area is more sensitive than others. References being made that the GO has had a 'tough time' finding billy's for several years and the goat population is suffering.

My thoughts are that if the GO can't find them (billy's), they likely don't exist. :shock:

Where's all the Billy Goats then???
Why is this area more sensitive than others?
What kind of harvests have been taken over the past 5 or 10 years?
Should this area be put on LEH? (would make the GO happy, I'm sure).


I keep finding myself getting 'stuck' that the only report on these killings are being made from a person that doesn't have ANY 1st hand knowledge of them. The opening post reads as if he is the messenger and/or acquaintance of the outfitter. Right now, it's all hearsay and unsubstantiated babble.

How can Joe Blow (me) find out how 'sensitive' this area is (if it is) when compared to other areas?

[Jigger]

I'm new here, but I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. If you or any resident hunter is going to listen to a guide outtfitter for info you are as smart as his horse. If a Bio tells you info, I would respect that.

[newhunterette]

IMPORTANT NOTICE FOR MOUNTAIN GOAT HUNTERS

Mountain goats are very sensitive to overharvest,
and even a small harvest of adult
females can tip the balance between
increasing and declining populations.The
Wildlife Program is attempting to address
this concern through voluntary compliance
among hunters to select a male
mountain goat (billy) while hunting.
Hunters are requested to select a
male mountain goat.
For more information on how to select a
billy, please see our website at:
www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wild/hunting/archive.htm (http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wild/hunting/archive.htm)

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/hunting/docs/notice_to_mtn_goat_hunters.pdf

You can borrow the video “Is it a Billy or
is it a Nanny?” from regional or Victoria
MoE offices to help you learn more
about billy selection.The same video is
also available from the BC Wildlife
Federation.The Wildlife Program will
continue to monitor the proportion of
nannies in the harvest and adjust hunting
opportunities in response to local goat
population trends and harvest.

this is taken right from the hunting regulations page 26

[ianwuzhere]

Crazy Lower-mainland Hunters;)

[chilcotin hillbilly]

Mr. Dean this is not second hand information. I live right across from the trail head and access this area often . I talked to these fellows my self before their hunt and in formed them of the goat population. On the way out they not only talked to the G.O. but talked to the home owner whose driveway they parked in . Both the guide and the home owner have the same story after talking to these fellows. There has been a push by the local community to have public access cut off at the main road only giving the guide access to the trail head . Alot of good this will do for the rest of us hunters that like to hunt that alpine area. In a very small community word gets around very quick and these 2 guys may have started something we might all , as hunters, have to pay for in the future. There is no reason anyone should be hunting a species they don't know enough about. I guess I am in a bad mood as earlier this week I had to give an out of town hunter crap for shooting alittle two point buck in a no shooting zone70 yards from where I was bow hunting. I just ask that all of us hunters use some common sence and good sound ethics in making our hunting desicions.

[ElkMasterC]

I just ask that all of us hunters use some common sence and good sound ethics in making our hunting desicions.

Good on ya, CH, what you said X 10

[guest]

Chil coot bill is right,
yes we are or they were allowed, but if your thinking of the "best for the Goats " thing, these guys couldn't give a rats a___!
It is no hidden fact that harvest of Nannies is just BAD ! I wish more hunters would think of the best for the animal and it's management. Man has totally interfered with the balance of nature and we count on our biologists and managers to maintain those limits. We are asked to NOT SHOOT Nannies, so here it continues to happen. Read any thing about this species and it's obvious, only the selection of Billy's can maintain allowable harvest!
The reason it's open for male and female is because it can't be won in court, lawyers find the facts of how close alike the male and female are and the damn judges let the guys off.
I turned down 2 different bills this year on 3 stalks, things were not right for possible loss of the animal or my life given the steep terrain. The Nannies and kids were near by, I don't want to shoot something I know is not healthy for a sustainable heard, if you know your hunting a species that will not support the shooting of females then why even bother. I refuse to shoot a Nanny. At the very least these guys should have selected a juvenile or kid.
Many herds depend on those senior Nannies, they are often the leaders not the Billy's as some think!

I hope these and others that harvest a Nannie feel good about there actions when they know the consequences.

Next to come ..... more closed Goat areas...... thanks guys !
C/T

[Jigger]

I think if these guys are truly proud of there trophies good for them, everyone here is talking about a couple of people that can't defend themselves. I hunt alot of goat and only shoot billies, but if someone is proud of a nannie good for them, you start talking and praising outtfitters you should get your head examined, they will screw the resident hard.:shock:

[Mr. Dean]

:twisted: Doom and Gloom :twisted:... The herd is sensitive and we should only permit the guide to hunt. :rolleyes:
Sorry, but that just hurts.

How about tellin' the guide to pack up so residents could have more opprotunity at more Billy's? Having an increase in the male population may just spare a few nanny's. :wink:


Where's the data that shows me the 'sensitivity' side of things? It sounds like this small community has put some concerted effort in,,, this info should be on hand, sitting on a neighbours table... I'd think.

[ElkMasterC]

I think if these guys are truly proud of there trophies good for them, everyone here is talking about a couple of people that can't defend themselves. I hunt alot of goat and only shoot billies, but if someone is proud of a nannie good for them, you start talking and praising outtfitters you should get your head examined, they will screw the resident hard.:shock:

We're trying to think about the big picture here.
Not only for the long-term health of a population which, in the case of goats is by it's nature isolated and slow to colonize, but also of hunting, and our public profile.
Many want to think "It's our right, and can never be lost", but that's not true. First and foremost, respect the animal you're hunting, but also respect other hunters, and others who enjoy the resource, be it thru taking pics, hiking and observing, whatever.

This whole little sub-culture of "it's legal, so I hammered it" has to be re-examined.
There's legal, and there's moral, and sometimes there's a wide gap between the two...and "Ne'er the twain shall meet"

Bring it.

[Mr. Dean]

.... I talked to these fellows my self before their hunt and in formed them of the goat population. On the way out they not only talked to the G.O. but talked to the home owner whose driveway they parked in . Both the guide and the home owner have the same story after talking to these fellows.

Soooo, these fella's went in and nabbed 2 goats. Then felt so proud of their accomplishments, they felt the need in BRAGGING it to all the locals that they met.

This sounds more like a couple of newbs that don't get it. I'm even more certain now that they thought what they had done, was right. If they did 'get it', their actions would have been very different IMO.

With a drive to get new hunters, hunting,,, this isn't all that shocking. What we should be doing is looking at better ways to drive the message home. Understand this; without them (new hunters), there WON'T be any of 'us', in the years to come. Count on it.

... And calling for a ban is just another step closer to that outcome.


Hopefully these goats were these guyz's 1st's (assuming that all reported is correct), and perhaps they get a chance to read this thread.... Congrat's on your hunt fella's, but now its time to take it a little more serious, for next time - No More Nanny For You's! :smile:

FWIW. It's also a good idea to toss back all the female crabs too. :wink:

[ElkMasterC]

Nah..kill all the female crabs.
They'll grow back, right?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

It is obvious to me that you did not read the first post Mr. Dean. One of the fellow told me he had harvested a goat up in the same place 5 years ago. I would think he was no longer a newbe? The way these guys talked they are far from newbe's spend most of the fall hunting sheep ,caribou. elk deer and goats. Another thing nobody is tootting the guides horn the guide will have access to to that trail regardless wether that road is off limits to us resident hunters as his property backs up to the trail head. This area has alot of anti hunting people. And only a few of us that take hunting very serious, I am always taking flack from the local community as to my hunting of predators even though every animal I take is done legally. I don't think you can even make a half ass intelligent comment on the effect of this on the local hunting community sitting at your computer in Langley. I used to live in Langley and had no Idea what went on around the small communities during hunting season. Moving here was a eye opener. There are plenty of hunters that don't care about the regs as each year there are bucks shot down the valley in the no shooting area. Many of these deer are shot on private property. This makes us look bad as a group. Once again lets start using some common sense and good ethical judgements before pulling the trigger.

[guest]

Well said Chil coot bill !

Our SPORT is best supported by ETHICS!

That is a no brainer, if you really enjoy OUR sport, then help support sustainability of species at hand, if our own advisors (biologists) recommend
a specified management lets follow it to the best of our ability.

Don't Shoot Nannys !!

C/T

[newhunterette]

this is also found in the hunting regulations page 15


Female Harvest




In British Columbia, female harvest is almost

universally regulated under LEH.This is because
the survival of adult females is, in almost every
case, the single largest determining factor in a
population’s growth or decline. Since the postwar
era most jurisdictions in North America
have implemented tight restrictions on female
harvest because game populations were perceived
to be at a low. However, since the
broad-scale recovery of wildlife populations
across the continent (in which BC is a leader)
managers are beginning to shift to more liberal
female hunting seasons and female harvests are
becoming an important management tool to
help ensure population viability.
There are some game species that are particularly
sensitive to female harvest. For these
species, including bears, mountain goats and
cats, we regularly request or mandate that
females are not harvested especially when they
are in the presence of their dependent young.
This is the reason for the request to not
harvest mountain goat nannies and female
cougars, or the prohibition against harvesting a
bear under 2 years old or any bear in its
company.The best available evidence strongly
suggests that for these game species, if a stable
or increasing population is desired, female





harvest should be as low as possible.

[Mr. Dean]

It is obvious to me that you did not read the first post Mr. Dean. One of the fellow told me he had harvested a goat up in the same place 5 years ago.

chilcoton;

Comutron screens aren't the best served conversation pieces of equipment. There much better for viewing pictures. :wink: BUT, here's your 1st post and I don't see anything in it that resembles your statement above.


As I was driving to work last week I stopped and talked to a couple of young guys from Abbotsford who were getting their horses ready to go up into the mountains looking for goats. these guys said they were going up over night to get a goat and planned on being out the next day. I told them good luck as the goat population is way down and the outfitter has had a had a tough time finding a billy to harvest the last few years. These guys went up and shot 2 nannies the following day, and ran into the outfitter on their way out. This was enough to piss anyone off. Two guys who knowingly harvest 2 nannies in an area which is weak on goats to begin with should not be allowed to hunt as they give hunters a bad name. If any of you know these 2 guys that shot these nannies on their way back from caribou hunting in the Itcha mountains give them a good hard kick in the junk for me and every other hunter in BC.


I really don't know what to believe...

I don't believe a seasoned goat gatherer would go in and intentionally harvest 2 nanny's and then go on about it to all that he meets on the way out. That just doesn't make any sense to me. A seasoned goat hunter wouldn't feel proud of that.

What I'm beginning to believe is that a seasoned goat hunter had received word from a GO, that a couple of nanny's were put down is his backyard; and this info flipped the wig off of that seasoned hunter. Thus resulting in a lot of emotionally charge, passionate, and perhaps,,, misdirected communications. So emotionally charged up that even he doesn't remember the story....

[Mr. Dean]

Well said Chil coot bill !

Our SPORT is best supported by ETHICS!

That is a no brainer, if you really enjoy OUR sport, then help support sustainability of species at hand, if our own advisors (biologists) recommend
a specified management lets follow it to the best of our ability.

Don't Shoot Nannys !!

C/T

Over the course of a Goat Hunters lifetime, what is an acceptable 'oops' harvest then?

It's been stated from several 'in the know' type guys that nanny's WILL be killed and that it's virtually impossible not too. I'd go on to think that Goat hunting has a learning curve that never ends.

If a 20 year veteran and a goat club president accidentally shot a nanny; would this thread have a different 'flavour' to it? Exactly when do the flames go out and where does the acceptability factor, factor in?

[budismyhorse]

It is obvious to me that you did not read the first post Mr. Dean. One of the fellow told me he had harvested a goat up in the same place 5 years ago. I would think he was no longer a newbe? The way these guys talked they are far from newbe's spend most of the fall hunting sheep ,caribou. elk deer and goats. Another thing nobody is tootting the guides horn the guide will have access to to that trail regardless wether that road is off limits to us resident hunters as his property backs up to the trail head. This area has alot of anti hunting people. And only a few of us that take hunting very serious, I am always taking flack from the local community as to my hunting of predators even though every animal I take is done legally. I don't think you can even make a half ass intelligent comment on the effect of this on the local hunting community sitting at your computer in Langley. I used to live in Langley and had no Idea what went on around the small communities during hunting season. Moving here was a eye opener. There are plenty of hunters that don't care about the regs as each year there are bucks shot down the valley in the no shooting area. Many of these deer are shot on private property. This makes us look bad as a group. Once again lets start using some common sense and good ethical judgements before pulling the trigger.

Sorry to jump from lurking this thread to responding but you have to keep a distinction between what these guys "allegedly" did (though I am fully with Mr. Dean on this situation) and what is in fact illegal poaching of game. Don't confuse the two. They are in fact very different acts.

Also about your lack of acceptance within the public..... they are likely giving you a bad time about the fact that predator hunters are more in line with trophy hunting and many don't eat what they kill...even in rural communities. Legal harvest or Not. Quite a few hunters even have ethical issues with that as well..

[Mr. Dean]

[quote]you have to keep a distinction between what these guys... and what is in fact illegal poaching of game. Don't confuse the two. They are in fact very different acts.
Exactly.

Bravo!

[Jigger]

I'm with Mr.Dean and Budismyhorse, they are saying it the way it should be told, I'm just a lurker but it really doesn't sound like there are too many goat hunters involved in this thread or one this forum. There is a short learning curve and if someone shoots a nanny big deal, we as residents are not harvesting many goats anyhow. It was good listening to this conservation, but do not confuse poachers from hunter........

[rocksteady]

but do not confuse poachers from hunter........

How can they be a "poacher" when they have done nothing illegal???

Things have changed thoug, in the regs, when I got my last goat (About 12 years ago) they only had a little one line statement....

"Hunters are urged to harvest male goats"......Now its a whole page...

[ElkMasterC]

There is a short learning curve and if someone shoots a nanny big deal

Well, the biologists say it IS a big deal.


If you're not part of the solution........

[Jigger]

I'm not saying the guys that got the nannies were poachers, someone stated a couple of thread ago about poachers in the lower mainland....

[chilcotin hillbilly]

No body said anything about these guys poaching. Some guys on here are a prime example of why there are problems. Does anybody accually read the regs? Knowingly shooting nannies is unethical . Greater care has tobe taken to prevent hunters from looking bad. The same goes to the morons that shoot 3 point bulls in an imature bull season, or a big 3 point in 4 point season. Look and think before shooting. If you are not capable of doing the right thing and making good desicions take up another sport like lawn bowling.[nothing against lawn bowlers]

[Jigger]

No body said anything about these guys poaching. Some guys on here are a prime example of why there are problems. Does anybody accually read the regs? Knowingly shooting nannies is unethical . Greater care has tobe taken to prevent hunters from looking bad. The same goes to the morons that shoot 3 point bulls in an imature bull season, or a big 3 point in 4 point season. Look and think before shooting. If you are not capable of doing the right thing and making good desicions take up another sport like lawn bowling.[nothing against lawn bowlers]

You are talking about poaching with reagrds to the immature moose and 3 point mule deer, both are against the law. If I take my 13 yr old son up the mountain and he shoots a nannie and is happy and pround, if anyone said anything to me or him negative about it, they would eat the dirt on the bottom of my shoes...:grin: I beleive in ethics and see nothing wrong with him shooting a dry nanny. sorry for the harsh words but this is the way I feel.

[Browningmirage]

what you need to actually look at here is ecological responsibility, not ethics. Personally, i wont shoot a calf moose from under a cow, as a matter of my own personal ethics; its not that i dont agree with the management policies in place for calf hunting, its just that my ethics mean i wont do it.

Its not that ethics are the issue here, personally chilcotin hillbilly, im sure that there is something in everyones ethical code that i would find absolutely appalling, but ethics are a factor of each person, and as long as the individual is operating within the law, you are in no way shape or form entitled to criticize the ethics of that individual. You may however question the law.

As for ecological responsibility, personally, i wont hunt in areas i know are short on game, i wont fish in systems or on runs that are in trouble, and i do my part to make the world a better place. Shooting a Nanny is not a question of ethics rather it is a question of ecological (or environmental) responsibilty...and as you have decided that this is a decidedly irresponsible thing to do, now you may be responsible and remedy the problem that you have discovered...if not, then you just let things like this continue, and you are part of a problem

[Jigger]

what you need to actually look at here is ecological responsibility, not ethics. Personally, i wont shoot a calf moose from under a cow, as a matter of my own personal ethics; its not that i dont agree with the management policies in place for calf hunting, its just that my ethics mean i wont do it.

Its not that ethics are the issue here, personally chilcotin hillbilly, im sure that there is something in everyones ethical code that i would find absolutely appalling, but ethics are a factor of each person, and as long as the individual is operating within the law, you are in no way shape or form entitled to criticize the ethics of that individual. You may however question the law.

As for ecological responsibility, personally, i wont hunt in areas i know are short on game, i wont fish in systems or on runs that are in trouble, and i do my part to make the world a better place. Shooting a Nanny is not a question of ethics rather it is a question of ecological (or environmental) responsibilty...and as you have decided that this is a decidedly irresponsible thing to do, now you may be responsible and remedy the problem that you have discovered...if not, then you just let things like this continue, and you are part of a problem


Well said..........................

[mainland hunter]

The point is that shooting nannies WILL result in fewer LEH tags and fewer GOS', It is legal, in order to make room for honest mistakes without having to throw the book at everyonoe who does. The Biologists are all but pleading with people to make every attempt to shoot a billy. Knowingly shooting a nanny in these circumstances is unethical imo. mistakingly shooting a nanny is not, but hunters should take it upon themselves to know the difference. Again Nannies are legal, not because the populations can handle nanny harvests, but rather to give hunters the benefit of the doubt that they will try to take billies but allow for honest mistakes. I don't understand how to tell if a nanny is dry. Her Kid may have been killed earlier, but she may still be able to have young in the future so how can one know they are shooting a dry nanny.

[Jigger]

I will put it plain and simple to resolve this question about a dry nanny. If it is raining out do not shoot her because she is probably wet, also if there is a big billy trying to breed her, she again my be wet. Same goes with all ungulates:-P

"dry" simply means there is no kid or fawn or calf with the nanny, doe or cow, very simple

[Mr. Dean]

[yawn]...... I guess I'm not goin to get any of my questions answered. Too bad,,, so sad. The info *could* have added credibility to this thread and it's originator.

Carry on with the crucifixion - Keep in mind though, I highly doubt that it'll lead to anywhere good.

[bigmike]

You are talking about poaching with reagrds to the immature moose and 3 point mule deer, both are against the law. If I take my 13 yr old son up the mountain and he shoots a nannie and is happy and pround, if anyone said anything to me or him negative about it, they would eat the dirt on the bottom of my shoes...:grin: I beleive in ethics and see nothing wrong with him shooting a dry nanny. sorry for the harsh words but this is the way I feel.
well if every goat hunter 'felt' the way you do we wouldnt have much of a population:mad:

[Johnnybear]

I'm no goat hunter (yet) but I do read the reg's and definitely respect the suggestions outlined by the wildlife biologists (take a look and you should all be black bear hunting:D). I think everyone should read the regs and respect the suggestions etc. regardless of it being legal. I passed on a nice spike buck last weekend to show my son (11 years old) about passing on a legal animal.

What disturbes me is the amount of posts lately of folks that obviously do not read the regulations very well:shock:.

[6616]

well if every goat hunter 'felt' the way you do we wouldnt have much of a population:mad:

It won't do the goat population any good that's true, but it will not devastate the goat population if the regional biologists are watching what's going on.

If the female kill climbs over 30% the hunt will go LEH and the number of authorizations made available will be established at a number much lower then the sustainable billy harvest could be because they will be taking into account that 30% of the kill is going to be females, in other words there will be far fewer authorizations then there would be if they were confident very few females would be shot.

What would happen is that you obviously won't have as much of a goat hunting opportunity anymore.

[Mr. Dean]

It won't do the goat population any good that's true, but it will not devastate the goat population if the regional biologists are watching what's going on.

If the female kill climbs over 30% the hunt will go LEH and the number of authorizations made available will be established at a number much lower then the sustainable billy harvest could be because they will be taking into account that 30% of the kill is going to be females, in other words there will be far fewer authorizations then there would be if they were confident very few females would be shot.

What would happen is that you obviously won't have as much of a goat hunting opportunity anymore.

According to hillbilly, the population is already suppressed and is in peril. The guide is having a hard time at making a living as even he can't find Billy's

It sounds as though this area should be closed NOW and perhaps a transplant Plan should be considered, for the sake of the goat populations... However, I'm not sure if this is a 'feeling' or if it is a factual response. Maybe someone told him that it was and he's comfortable with that information (???).

[bigmike]

[yawn]...... I guess I'm not goin to get any of my questions answered. Too bad,,, so sad. The info *could* have added credibility to this thread and it's originator.

Carry on with the crucifixion - Keep in mind though, I highly doubt that it'll lead to anywhere good.
WOW.....what a statement from the lead crucifier:smile:
Throughout this thread you continually question CH's credibility and call this second hand info even after he told you he talked to these'hunters' first hand.
What gives you the right to do so????were you there??
Has he given you some reason to doubt him??
As a local to the area of course he might be biased but rightfully so as im sure he sees a lot more questionable activity than any of us 'city folk'.

Cut the guy some slack......he's not the one who shot the nannies.

[Mr. Dean]

WOW.....what a statement from the lead crucifier:smile:
Throughout this thread you continually question CH's credibility and call this second hand info even after he told you he talked to these'hunters' first hand.
What gives you the right to do so????were you there??
Has he given you some reason to doubt him??
As a local to the area of course he might be biased but rightfully so as im sure he sees a lot more questionable activity than any of us 'city folk'.

Cut the guy some slack......he's not the one who shot the nannies.

You're missing my points.

Hillbilly hadn't seen the guys, or the goats, after the fact - 'He' wasn't there just as much as 'I' wasn't there. He only seen the hunters the day before. He's merely passing on a story that was told to him... From a person that may just have a chip on his shoulder (GO not liking hunters in his territory or ???). None the less, a biased source.

What I do see in his story are some embellishments to make things appear even scarier (low billy count, compromised herds...)

Hillbilly HAS changed his story... His 2nd version (twist) claims that he knows one of the guys gotta goat 5 years earlier and is a seasoned hunter. Claims it was in the opening post; but it is not.

So ya,,,, before I jump in on a witch hunt, I would like too see him start substantiating some of these *other* claims/embellishments, in order to show 'some kind' of credibility. He's hittin' pretty hard with the accusations - He's equated these hunters to the level of poachers, called out for violence to be brought upon them,,, but hasn't demonstrated anything that this story holds any water.

Is hillbilly a "NIMBY", or is he a Conservationist? Could he be a campaigner of the Anti Hunting/Anti Trophy Hunting crowd??? I don't know, but as a moderator of HBC, I believe that threads such as this, need to hold more merit than what this one does. As it is; it sneers pretty near ANY hunter that lives in the Abby district that likes to pursue Goats.

[6616]

According to hillbilly, the population is already suppressed and is in peril. The guide is having a hard time at making a living as even he can't find Billy's

It sounds as though this area should be closed NOW and perhaps a transplant Plan should be considered, for the sake of the goat populations... However, I'm not sure if this is a 'feeling' or if it is a factual response. Maybe someone told him that it was and he's comfortable with that information (???).

If that is the case the outfitter should not have a quota,,,,,should he....???? Wonder who has shot more goats in there over the last 5 or 10 years, residents, or the outfitter?

[chilcotin hillbilly]

The outfitter to my knowledge has not taken more then 2 billies any of the last 4 years. Last year he took one, this year his hunter cancelled and no goats where taken. the outfitter has a low quota already which he never comes close to filling. He is a very small time operator only taking 1 or 2 of each species. I will defend him as he has been more then kind to all the resident hunter that come to the area. The area 5-5 has three outfitters this particular guide has the worst area for goats but the easiest access fo residents. I am starting to think that Mr. Dean might be the guy behind the gun, oh yah, with 5000 posts he doesn't have time to go hunting.

[Mr. Dean]

Once again,,,, another deflection.


[SMACK]... Case Closed.

[Mr. Dean]

If that is the case the outfitter should not have a quota,,,,,should he....???? Wonder who has shot more goats in there over the last 5 or 10 years, residents, or the outfitter?

Sir, could you please explain to me the nuances of the Compulsory Inspection end of things.

As I understand it (correct me if wrong), all goats fall into this programme... How quick is the data transferred back to the local biologist? Lets say that area X takes a hard hit on nan's early in a season. Does the bio have enough time, upon getting the results, to make necessary changes in the same season?

Forgive me if I asked this of you before. As I typed it, I got me a case of deja vu! but can't remember the response it brought (CRS syndrome acting up again,,, maybe? :rolleyes:).


hillbilly; Please note that this is the 5010th post of mine. :lol:

[Hoytster]

I would hunt any animal that was legal.....those 2 hunters went goat hunting and harvested 2 goats. Not a good idea to take 2 nannies if the the population is hurting.....but that should be where the Biologists should do some work and where concerned hunters like Hillbilly and the rest should take up their concerns by writing or signing petitions to make those changes....THIS INCLUDES THE LOCAL G.O!!.....(if you have already done this then GOOD ON YA!!)...in the end...those guys more than likely had a great experience, will treat their legally taken animals with respect and enjoy their fine table fare......the regs are CLEAR on this subject.....they want the hunter to make a choice. You can take a goat, either Billy or Nanny BUT better to take a Billy.....they made a choice in the end that they were both obviously happy with. I hear what you are saying Hillbilly and I hear what Mr.Dean is saying as well......In this thread...we are going to have to agree to disagree......and I believe there are still 2 hunters out there that are not loosing any sleep over their great hunting experience......

[Hoytster]

...Ohh...one more thing..if anyone out there knows where I can find the book on "The ONLY RULES to ETHICAL HUNTING".......please...please show me where I can get a copy and info on the author!....I would like to know where he/she gets the authority to write it...

[6616]

The outfitter to my knowledge has not taken more then 2 billies any of the last 4 years. Last year he took one, this year his hunter cancelled and no goats where taken. the outfitter has a low quota already which he never comes close to filling. He is a very small time operator only taking 1 or 2 of each species. I will defend him as he has been more then kind to all the resident hunter that come to the area. The area 5-5 has three outfitters this particular guide has the worst area for goats but the easiest access fo residents. I am starting to think that Mr. Dean might be the guy behind the gun, oh yah, with 5000 posts he doesn't have time to go hunting.

It really doesn't matter how big or how small he is or what his quota is, according to MOE policy residents are supposed to have priority over non-residents and non-residents are supposed to be cut back first or at least equally if there's a conservation concern.

[jml11]

Shooting two goats out of a herd of eight is just stupidity. It is obvious that the goats were not Billies.


While I am a strong advocate of harvesting billies only I don't think this is necessarily an appropriate statement. Yes generally billies are not in groups but the area I hunt goats the nannies and billies are often together. Two years ago we took two billies out of a group of 7 goats (all 7 were billies by the way). After ID'ing them and stalking close a group of nannies and kids came and bedded right with them to make the group 15! The billy I took was nearly 10" and aged at 11 years old!

[steel_ram]

......the regs are CLEAR on this subject.....they want the hunter to make a choice. You can take a goat, either Billy or Nanny BUT better to take a Billy.....they made a choice in the end that they were both obviously happy with. ......

Huh? It's extremely CLEAR that biologists don't want hunters to take nannies, and make it clear why! Problem is, making a law that forces a hunter to shoot billies only is a waste of time, so the powers that be plead to the conservation side of educated hunters. Kind of what we preach.

The hunter training course used to be call the "Conservation Education Program". Not the blast your limit 'cus the law can't stop you.

[6616]

Sir, could you please explain to me the nuances of the Compulsory Inspection end of things.

Official harvest reports come from Victoria almost a full year late, but CI and non-resident data is well known in the region shortly after hunting season is over because that data is gathered in the regions. They know in time to make annual adjustments. The CI and non-resident data is sent to Victoria by the regions in the first place and the reports are written in Victoria and they then final reports come back to region and about a year later, but since the initial data comes from the region first so they know all they need to know to make annual adjustments.

It's a little different with GOS species as harvest questionaire data goes directly to Victoria and thus the region is little less informed. The reports are released from Victoria all at the same time so the CI info is held back until the GOS data is compiled, but in nearly all cases the regions know the rough data well before it's actually released. Region and HQ communicate regularily and HQ would immediatelly inform regions of any conservation concerns that are developing well before the reports are released, especially if they thought regions might be unaware of a situation.

LEH and quota numbers can be, and are, are adjusted annually with reliable data, as they are not regulatory changes and do not have to go through the regional advisory committees, public consultation process, or wait for legilature to sit for an OIC to be passed. Regulations are a little different and do take quite a bit of time.

[Hoytster]

Huh?....don't blame the 2 hunters because they made a choice that was given to them....they made a choice....they had a great hunt. If the Biologist didn't want them to take nannies they would not of given them a choice to begin with. Trust me on this one.....if they (Biologists) really didnt want any hunters to take nannies, it would not take much for them to change the rules without giving them a choice to begin with! What you think is right for you may not be for them....if you were in their hunting boots, then you would not pull the trigger...good for you Steel Ram...they didnt have a problem with taking their game...if the law gives them a limit and they exersized their right then good on them...there is not much you or anyone can do but post your opinion on HBC....

[mainland hunter]

The reason others are upset when hunters intentionally take nannies is because it will result in further hunting restrictions. taking billies ensures that others will have better opportunities in the future to hunt goats. This is not the same as shooting a calf in an open season. that season is there because the bios feel it's sustainable, nannies are only open because of the difficulty in differentiating the 2 for some. If more people turned down nannies as they are asked to in the regs. goat hunting opportunities would increase. as it is right now the harvest of nannies is the reason so many areas need to have tighter than necessary tag allotments.

[Hoytster]

"nannies are only open because of the difficulty in differentiating the 2 for some"

Can anyone back this up?....I have read this statement and wonder if this is the real reason why they allow nannies to be harvested....still....I find it hard to believe that if there is such a problem as stated by many, that the Biologists would leave the situation so un-attended like that....has anyone in this thread tried to contact the powers that be?? Im interested in what the feedback was......and did they get a kick in the junk for not looking after the matter??

BTW....nice taxidermy work Ray....beautiful bear!.....

[Mr. Dean]

6616;
For the most part, that's what I figured - Thx.

Hoyster;
That is correct. Flip back a pg or 2 and some posts go into detail about. The bio's are wanting us to tighten up on the current 30% harvest rate of nanny's. Keeping them 'open' pretty much to allow us wiggle room on our judgements... Is it a Billy or is it a Nanny? :smile:

OOP'S,,, it's a Nanny. :redface:


If we can't reduce the nanny mortality rate, or permit it to climb, MoE will take care of it for us. Instilling things like LEH and/or reduced allotments (tags/season). It is a very serious thing. :neutral:

[Mr. Dean]

It really doesn't matter how big or how small he is or what his quota is, according to MOE policy residents are supposed to have priority over non-residents and non-residents are supposed to be cut back first or at least equally if there's a conservation concern.

Thus the biased rationale/opinion that I refer to. Self preservation trumps everything - I'm one of the nicest guys around (I know of no better :wink:), but touch my wallet and see what happens.

I'm sure that the GO is a 'nice' guy too.

[6616]

"nannies are only open because of the difficulty in differentiating the 2 for some"

Can anyone back this up?....I have read this statement and wonder if this is the real reason why they allow nannies to be harvested....still....I find it hard to believe that if there is such a problem as stated by many, that the Biologists would leave the situation so un-attended like that...


It's true statement Hoyster, pretty much common knowledge actually, and the bio's are doing something about it,,,, for example their mountain goat harvest strategy has established the annual allowable harvest of goats at 3.0 to 4.5 % of the population estimate (purposely much lower then the sustainable harvest rate for only billies would be) because they know that 20 to 30 % of the harvest is going to be nannies. This reduces the nanny mortality to acceptable levels. If the nanny kill goes up to 35% of the total kill, the annual harvest rate would be lowered to 2.0% or less of the population estimate, and if it went up to 40% they'd probably shut the hunt down immediatelly. They're not going to put the goat population at risk to maintain hunting and by following this stratgey they won't, but it will adversely effect hunting opportunities.

It's important for goat hunters to be aware of this. For every nanny that's killed, the opportunity to harvest 2 billies is taken away. Goat hunting opportunities are going to be further restricted if nanny kills increase. There will be more opportunity if we kill fewer females, it's as simple as that, has to be that way to ensure the hunt is sustainable.

If the bios knew that all the goats harvested were for sure going to be billies the overall harvest rate could probably be up in the area of 10 to 12% of the population estimate.

Just for comparison sake, moose are harvested at 15 to 20% of the population estimate and as high as 25% of the bull estimate, , elk a little less, mule deer a little more, and white tails quite a bit more. You can sustainably harvest 30% of a white tailed deer population every year (males and females combined) without causing a decline, it's done all over North America. The variations between species depends on the natural mortaility rates and the reproduction/recruitment rates, all other factors like habitat quality being equal.

Nanny goats in the best goat habitat average less than one kid per year and these kids have a very high mortaility rate as do the adults as well. White Tailed does in good habitat average 2.3 to 2.5 fawns per year and these fawns have much higher survival rate and adult deer do as well when compared to mountain goats.

Heck, if 30% of the moose harvest was females the bios would be concerned, let alone having that occur with a sensitive species like mountain goats.

Shooting nannies is not illegal, it's not poaching, it's actually forgivable for a novice goat hunter or for a guy who is only going to shoot one or two goats ina lifetime. It's not unethical or immoral either because it is legal. It's not going to decimate the population because the overall harvest takes it into consideration. It's just biologically irresponsible for someone who knows better as some wise person said earlier in this thread. Also every nanny killed is taking two hunting opportunities away from other hunters and this could be described as selfish, and that's what understandably upsets the veteran goat hunters.

[Mr. Dean]

... Also every nanny killed is taking two hunting opportunities away from other hunters and this could be described as selfish, and that's what understandably upsets the veteran goat hunters....

Not to mention GO's (touch my wallet syndrome). :wink:

[Hoytster]

great response 6616....a great reason why I joined this site....and I can see the situation better now.....and thankfully it didnt take a kick in the junk to do it too....lol...

and since you mentioned moose....lol....up here, they have opened the calf season in 7-16 and 23 an extra few weeks!!...I heard from some Guide folks that the main reason was to decimate the over population of wolves...is this correct and is it sound management??....or maybe this is a new thread....lol

[wolverine]

Please excuse my ignorance but I have never goat hunted. Just didn't appeal to me much but.......why is it so hard to tell the difference in the sexes? Did the nuts fall off or something?? Usually,on most animals, the "junk" is pretty easy to spot.Just curious.

[6616]

great response 6616....a great reason why I joined this site....and I can see the situation better now.....and thankfully it didnt take a kick in the junk to do it too....lol...

and since you mentioned moose....lol....up here, they have opened the calf season in 7-16 and 23 an extra few weeks!!...I heard from some Guide folks that the main reason was to decimate the over population of wolves...is this correct and is it sound management??....or maybe this is a new thread....lol

Probably is a new thread but yes they are doing that in mountain caribou recovery areas as part of the caribou recovery strategy. The theory is to protect caribou which are considered secondary prey for wolves, you lower the primary prey population (moose) to starve the wolves out and lower their population.

I'm not a biologist and I won't comment on if it works or not, but it seems to me that half starved wolves might be even harder on the caribou then well fed wolves. It's true that if you lower the moose population, in time the wolf population will decline as well, but it takes some time, and what happens in the meantime especially to the caribou..??? It's controversial, not all bios believe it will work.

Also I believe, and this is my opinion only, that all you need is some guns, planes, and choppers to control the wolf population, you don't need to compromise your moose population to control wolves. But as you know that very practical solution is unacceptable to the greenie, granola cruncher, more sensitive sector of society who have significant influence now-a-days..

[Hoytster]

WHA????.......choppers...guns...planes to control the wolf population??....now you done it 6616......THAT IS NOT ETHICAL!!!!......lol..and we seem to have allot of greenie, granola cruncher more sensitive sector of society here on HBC as well.......man I love this site...thanks for the feedback 6616 and you too Mr D
ean...

[Hoytster]

Hey Wolverine...yeah its hard to sex goats for most cause of all the fur that covers things up.....this is also true for Sasquatch, unicorns and...TodBartell...so they say.....lol

[ElkMasterC]

Please excuse my ignorance but I have never goat hunted. Just didn't appeal to me much but.......why is it so hard to tell the difference in the sexes? Did the nuts fall off or something?? Usually,on most animals, the "junk" is pretty easy to spot.Just curious.

Here's a good site, Wolverine. I used it to ID Bramble's goat pics on another thread.

http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/brochure_goat.html (Complete with illustrations by Chadwick himself)

Apparently in the fall when the hair gets long it covers the genitals. However, if you get a Southern exposure of a female, you can sometimes see a black vulval patch.
Still harrrrrd to do in some circumstances.
Whenever I see a goat now, I'm gonna try and "sex" it.
(PS: Don't tell the goat farmers)


PPS: This thread is still going? LMAO Talk about http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/dead-horse.gif

[goatdancer]

After three goat hunts I have come to the conclusion that goat hunters are all crazy........... (me included)

[dana]

Reading this thread is exactly why I won't post pics here any more. The high moral ethictians that sit at their computer screens casting stones.
This year I happened to have the best day of my life watching my 12 year old son hammer his first goat. Guess what? It was a nanny. No mistake. I knew it was a dry nanny before he pulled the trigger. Does that make me a ignornate SOB? Actually, one member from this site had the adacity to be a one post wonder on another board and called me out in my son's goat thread. Nice eh? What a way to impress a young kid, by having a fat knowitall college student jump on him for killing a nanny. Luckily, I'm a mod on that site and the HBCer had his posts nuked or modified. The truth of the matter is my son did what most adults can't do, he killed a Region 3 goat. Do you know how many goats are killed in Region 3 on an annual basis. Well looking at the latest BC outdoors on the magazine rack, they have printed out the recent hunter sucess stats. I think they normally are a year behind when they print those stats so it probably is stats for 2006. That year a total of 10 goats were killed in the entire Region. Do you know how many LEH tags were handed out? Well looking back into the LEH regs it looks like they lower and raise tags from year to year but it ranges between 190-220 tags per year. Wow, that is a high hunter success rate ain't it? Looking at 10 successful harvests out of a min of 190, that is freakin pathetic. And you guys have issues with nanny harvest? If all 10 of those goats were all nannys (BCoutdoors didn't break down sex this year like other years) you still wouldn't make a blip on the pops on the goats. According to the bio, goats are still on a decline in Region 3 yet I highly doubt hunter harvest has anything to do with that. Maybe the fact that we are overrun with wolves and yet the MOE feel it is best to pay trappers large $ to live trap them so they can collar them instead of paying them to kill them has something to do with the decline. Or maybe it is the heliskiers that fly overhead for drop after drop because they paid big money and want as much vertical feet in a day as they can get? Hmmm, ever think there are many many other issues facing goats today?
But no, you guys would rather rip a hunter into pieces for going out and actually hunting instead of sitting on the computer and pretending they are hunters.

[dana]

By the way Chilcotin Hillbilly,
I got myself a new pup that I'll be training this winter. If that pup learns fast and get a female up a tree and my son is along, should I reward the pup and allow my son to take his first cougar? Have you ever killed a female before or do you just kill toms? Where does your high moral ethics stop. On some boards you'll get slammed for killing a lion regardless of sex.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Dana- Congrats to Cody!!:cool:

This situation is not much different than someone shooting 6 yr old rams. While it's not something that we all want or should do all the time, it's not the end of the world.

We're also having major problems with the goat populations here in the Okanagan and it certainly isn't the hunting that's at the heart of the problem.

SSS

[dana]

SSS,
It is a hunt that I will hold near and dear to my heart for the rest of my life. Cody did in one day what it took me 7 draws in 14 years to accomplish. How many 12 year olds can say they harvested a mountain goat? Let alone a mountain goat in the Blue River country. The GPS said we were a 3.5 km straight line shot back to the truck. Just happened to in another drainage though, so up and down and up and down. Cody packed the bulk of the deboned meat out himself. I packed the full hide and more meat. He trained for this hunt all summer long. Rode his bike 32 kms in a day numerous times. Did numerous backpack trips with me as well. Not something most hunters can accomplish and yet he did it on his first day hunting goats. Personally having 7 tags in these units over the years, I know how difficult it is to get a goat without riskin' life or limb. This is pretty vertical country. Scouting paid off and we found the goats where we left them in the summer. And it was in a doable killshot situation. Picture perfect stalk to about 150 yards. Cody figured we were close enough, set up the shooting sticks and told me he felt really comfortable. One shot from the ol' family model 99 300 Sav. and the goat dropped like a sack of potatoes. It doesn't get any better than that. He tagged out on his 3 deer the week before. Then he killed a monster black bear the day after his goat. I've been nothing but a pack mule all season, and I'm loving every minute of it.

[rocksteady]

Congrats to your boy....

12 years old with a cut tag for a goat...Good hunting Cody...

(No judgement passed by this member regarding the harvest of a dry nanny:smile: Just happy for the young hunter to be succesful, in the company of a proud father)..

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If the area in question has a suppressed local herd then maybe they should just put a local closure on it. Flip through the regs and you'll find lots of local closures for goat in much more remote country.

Going to LEH will not prevent the same thing from happenning in the future.

We are down to 1 LEH in the entire Okanagan Region.

SSS

[steel_ram]

The high moral ethictians that sit at their computer screens casting stones.

I don't think in this situation anyones doing such. It's very clearly written in the regs. and elsewhere that those that are supposed to be in the know do not want us shooting nannies and why. In otherwords no couch judgement is required. If you think you know better, and shoot nannies, there's no point in argument because your totally within bounds of the law.

If you have a wonderful, challenging goat hunt, and inadvertantly end up with a nanny, no difference to me. Congratulations!

As for "dry" nannies, chances are they have lost their kids and are likely the better breeding stock for the following year.

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

the highest mortality rate on kids is in the winter. compitition for food is really hard and goats are the worst. they are distincly aggessive toward members of their own kind. the social enviroment can be very unforgiving. to the point. nannies kill lesser nannies kids. just a thought but to me the removale of dry nannies help's the herd by letting new blood come into the herd. the book A Beast The Colour Of winter can realy open your eyes to the life of a goat. Sometimes the protection of any herd causes nothing but inbreeding and cripples the herd. just my thoughts

[MOWITCH SLAYER]

Dana - congrats to cody he should be very proud. goats are hard to hunt!! as well as the herd managment he helped with

[wolverine]

Here's a good site, Wolverine. I used it to ID Bramble's goat pics on another thread.

http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/brochure_goat.html (Complete with illustrations by Chadwick himself)

Apparently in the fall when the hair gets long it covers the genitals. However, if you get a Southern exposure of a female, you can sometimes see a black vulval patch.
Still harrrrrd to do in some circumstances.
Whenever I see a goat now, I'm gonna try and "sex" it.
(PS: Don't tell the goat farmers)

PPS: This thread is still going? LMAO Talk about http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/dead-horse.gif


Well, learn something new every day. Thanks for the explaination guys.
ElkMaster.... I wouldn't want to be sitting outside the field trying to explain to the farmer that I was just trying to "sex his goats". Just one of those things that doesn't explain well. :tongue:

[wolverine]

Hey Wolverine...yeah its hard to sex goats for most cause of all the fur that covers things up.....this is also true for Sasquatch, unicorns and...TodBartell...so they say.....lol



Ha Ha Ha.... I'll have to take your word for that one. I don't know Bartell that well.:shock:

[Hoytster]

Dana:

You've addressed the point quite well with a perfect example....congratulations on your son's goat hunt and good on ya for using your legal right to take a nanny if you choose. I still say that if the populations of goats are at risk in certain areas, they should close it for a period as needed to build the numbers. If the really nice Outfitter will have to go without the money for a few seasons then so be it....Again ..very well said Dana...

[aggiehunter]

Your Son's goat harvest has a fraction of the impact on the goat herd compared to choppers. Congrats to him.