5x5 elk season in reg. 4

[bozzdrywall]

Do you think there should be a 5 point season in reg 4? The only reason i ask is that there seem to be more and more 5 points out there that only seem to get bigger and not grow the extra 6th point needed to harvest them. i think we should get rid of some of the genetic 5 points out there so the big 6 points will come back. This has happend in lots of other areas and the big bulls are comming back thats what we need to see around here. What do you all think.

[jml11]

had a group form work come back from up by ft.nelson, they had three elk two 6 points and a 5 point (it was during the three point season). The 5 poitn was much larger and thicker than both the 6 points.

I've hunted the same area three years running and have seen plenty of large mature 5 points with a harem of cows which dwarf most of the 6 points we see. At the same time we have seen some pretty punny 5 points which are certainly not mature bulls. Antler restrictions are a complicated genetic game!

[brotherjack]

I think antler restrictions are one of the most annoying things ever (right up there with Stephan Dion, Carbon Taxes, and Disco). Sure, I'd vote to lower it (heck, I'd vote to do away with it!). :)

[Tikka7mm]

I hunted reg 4 last year for Elk and came across a couple 5 points but no 6's within range....only from a distance. I'm no expert on antler restriction but I can say that one good reason to bring in a 5x5 season would be to limit the number of 5 points that are illegally shot and left to rot. I spoke to a couple locals up there last year who said they'd come across more dead 5 points in the bush than live 6 points or better walking around....no excuses but it's a lot easier to count 5 points than 6.

[Jetboater]

isnt this what hunting is all about... I alwasy find 5 points are in easier to access areas, therefor people want the easy season... get off your butt and hunt... last year in region 4 I passed on 5 or 6 different 6 points looking for a good one...

I have noticed that 5 points always seem to be near the road...

[springpin]

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no excuses but it's a lot easier to count 5 points than 6for some...

[brotherjack]

isnt this what hunting is all about... I alwasy find 5 points are in easier to access areas, therefor people want the easy season...

And why do you say that like it's a bad thing? For 90%+ of hunters (including me), "success" is measured in quantity of steaks in the freezer, not inches of antler on the wall.

[Jetboater]

All I am saying is people always want it easier, next it will be a 4 point elk season.... then a three, then a spike and after that the quality of animals will be way down again, one big winter and it will be all over... granted if I see a decent six I am the first to pull the trigger but I will not pull it on a small barely legal 6....

last year the best bull I called in was a 300+ inch 5 point... funny thing is I wasnt dissapointed....I dont belive the I hunt for food only bull that so many want to believe...

[hunter1947]

I myself know that there should be a 5 or better GOS on 5 points in the EK ,I counted 12 last year and come home with nil.

The numbers are up and as good as back in the eary 80ties.

[J_T]

During the bow only season, I was up close and personal with 15 separate bulls in Reg 4. Not one was a 6 point. Some where 1x4's 3x5's but no 6 pts. They all had cows, all came to the bugle and all acted as herd bulls.

If I was a farmer, I wouldn't want to cull my prime breeding bulls out of the herd. I'd rather cull a younger animal.

Most of the 5 pts I was in on, were two year olds. Only one magnificent 5 pt was a big animal.

I vote for a 3pt or LESS season. Not a 5 pt or better season. A 5 pt or better season will simply take away whatever breeding stock there might be. Leave the 6 pt season as it is GOS for those that want to pursue a 6pt and open a new (perhaps short) season for 3 pt or less.

[kootenay redneck]

I would like to see it 3 point or better every time i've gone to the east koots i've seen 5 and 4s but never a six one trip our camp in 5 days seen 10 bulls none were a six point the winter of 96 was bad sure putting the 6 point rule 12 years ago has helped tremendously I relly would like to see it switched back I strongly believe its the outfitters who relish the six pont system to produce quality for the clients..all well mabey this year i'll get lucky.

[BCRiverBoater]

I would like to see it 3 point or better every time i've gone to the east koots i've seen 5 and 4s but never a six one trip our camp in 5 days seen 10 bulls none were a six point the winter of 96 was bad sure putting the 6 point rule 12 years ago has helped tremendously I relly would like to see it switched back I strongly believe its the outfitters who relish the six pont system to produce quality for the clients..all well mabey this year i'll get lucky.

I think this is why the season is only 6 or better. If the number of 6 points are low then they need to protect the younger bulls and allow them to get to 6. Our season up here as been 6 or better for over 10 years as well (except for this year) and our elk numbers have been increasing nicely.

They opened up for 3 or better this year just in the ares close to town where the farms are. This is to keep the numbers under control to help the farmers etc.

I am a big fan of conservation and a 6 point season as well as shooting only 8 yr old rams or older is a must to ensure we have animals for our kids and grand kids to hunt.

If we shoot all the 2-3 yr old bulls, there will never be 6 points. They must survive the first 3 years to be a six and pass on their genetics.

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

isnt this what hunting is all about... I alwasy find 5 points are in easier to access areas, therefor people want the easy season... get off your butt and hunt... last year in region 4 I passed on 5 or 6 different 6 points looking for a good one...

I have noticed that 5 points always seem to be near the road...

First of all I dont know to many guys that pass up 5 or 6 ,6 point elk in a season to get a good one.Did you shoot a ''good one last year'' and what did it score.Also didnt your brother shoot a five point last year ,maybe you should have let him shoot one of the 6 points you passed on.

[Jetboater]

actually Chris's bull was a 6x5 buy an inch and legal, it was also his first bull, good Job there Corny...try to nock a kid down, and yes I did pass on that bull three days earlier, and I passed on 4 other bulls, the first bull I called in of the season I should have shot, but I tried to get him closer...
this year I will aslo hold out for a great bull, my wife is getting first crack at her first bull.... we saw 27 5 points last year... and I wasnt upset at all.... let see some of your bulls Corny.... and not your old mans....I heard you have to be in shape to kill elk but that might be a rumour....BTW I will be up there for 21 days... right till the closing.....

[road warrior]

I think elk hunting has never been better.I went out 2 days ago saw 5 bulls 2 6 pnts 2 5's and a spike the only thing that stoped me from shootin is I di'nt want to pack them off the mountain.
I can remember when it was 3 or better hunting for a week nd not seeing a bull now you can find bulls almost every day if you look hard enough.
I think a smaller bull season will only lower the bull cow ratio and do nothing good for the elk heard.If numbers are too high the only way to fix it is by taking cows not a bunch of small bulls and some times it would be nice to get rid of some big 5's but the problem is most people would shoot a 2 or 3 year old and say it's mature.One last thing is I know people that have lived in th EK and hunted for over 30 years and they all say there's more big bulls shot now than ever.Anyway thats my 2 cents.

[Fisher-Dude]

If we shoot all the 2-3 yr old bulls, there will never be 6 points. They must survive the first 3 years to be a six and pass on their genetics.

Absolutely wrong. Genetics are the same in a spike as they are when he's a 6 point. Genetics do NOT change as an animal ages. Also, it is a proven scientific fact that all that is needed for successful breeding is a sperm supply, and it does not matter if that sperm is from a 3 point, 4 point or a 6 point. Strong calves come from good genetics - and the genetics are irrespective of the age of the animal doing the breeding.

The 6 point season was put in place in reg 4 to rebuild the herd after the winter die off in '97. The herd numbers are now at or above pre-97 levels. The herd is also at or above carrying capacity. If we get another tough winter, we will be back to square one. Optimally, the herd must be kept below carrying capacity in order to have good survival of a tough winter. The 6 point season has been shown, in other jurisdictions, to be detrimental to the health of the herd if left in place too long.

Now that you have the science in front of you, it should be obvious that reg 4 can be returned to 3 point or better with no conservation concern, as the chief bio for the area wants to do. The politics of local clubs standing in the way of the science is the only real problem the elk now face. :?

[The Hermit]

Absolutely wrong. Genetics are the same in a spike as they are when he's a 6 point. Genetics do NOT change as an animal ages. Also, it is a proven scientific fact that all that is needed for successful breeding is a sperm supply, and it does not matter if that sperm is from a 3 point, 4 point or a 6 point. Strong calves come from good genetics - and the genetics are irrespective of the age of the animal doing the breeding.

The 6 point season was put in place in reg 4 to rebuild the herd after the winter die off in '97. The herd numbers are now at or above pre-97 levels. The herd is also at or above carrying capacity. If we get another tough winter, we will be back to square one. Optimally, the herd must be kept below carrying capacity in order to have good survival of a tough winter. The 6 point season has been shown, in other jurisdictions, to be detrimental to the health of the herd if left in place too long.

Now that you have the science in front of you, it should be obvious that reg 4 can be returned to 3 point or better with no conservation concern, as the chief bio for the area wants to do. The politics of local clubs standing in the way of the science is the only real problem the elk now face. :?

I agree with F-D on this one, except perhaps about the carrying capacity of the EK. I understand that some more habitat enhancement (controlled burns) of the winter ranges is needed and then the CP could easily double.

[Tikka7mm]

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no excuses but it's a lot easier to count 5 points than 6for some...

all I'm saying is that it is easier to misjudge a 6 point than it is to misjudge a 5 point....yah, yah i know hunters should be sure before they squeeze etc...etc but obviously this isn't always the case...

[BCRiverBoater]

I am not arguing the genetics thing. Obviously genetics are with a bull from birth. But typically your 2-3 yr old bulls are not breeding. Of course if there was no bulls what so ever they would be the ones doing the breeding.

Northern BC has had 6 or better for a long time. No one has a hard time getting bulls and the number of good bulls keeps increasing. I am no biologist nor do I pretend to be one. I just feel that if people are claiming to not see any 6 points then the one thing you do not want to do is open up the 3 point season. If you have a good number of mature bulls and it supports the herd and breeding bull to cow ratio then it would do no harm. But because people only see 3's or 5's does not necessarily mean you have to open them up.

A 6 point bull should be treated the same as a 4 point mule deer. Some areas do just fine with these restrictions and hunters are still successful.

Having a 6 point season all the time may not be a good thing long term but I know that a 3 point season is not good long term either.

[Tikka7mm]

Absolutely wrong. Genetics are the same in a spike as they are when he's a 6 point. Genetics do NOT change as an animal ages. Also, it is a proven scientific fact that all that is needed for successful breeding is a sperm supply, and it does not matter if that sperm is from a 3 point, 4 point or a 6 point. Strong calves come from good genetics - and the genetics are irrespective of the age of the animal doing the breeding.

The 6 point season was put in place in reg 4 to rebuild the herd after the winter die off in '97. The herd numbers are now at or above pre-97 levels. The herd is also at or above carrying capacity. If we get another tough winter, we will be back to square one. Optimally, the herd must be kept below carrying capacity in order to have good survival of a tough winter. The 6 point season has been shown, in other jurisdictions, to be detrimental to the health of the herd if left in place too long.

Now that you have the science in front of you, it should be obvious that reg 4 can be returned to 3 point or better with no conservation concern, as the chief bio for the area wants to do. The politics of local clubs standing in the way of the science is the only real problem the elk now face. :?

good argument....!

[6616]

If the bios think a 3pt or 5pt season for a week or ten days is sustainable from a population density point of view, why not go for it, it opens up a lot of opportunity.

The justification for it has to be poplulation dependent however, I don't necessarily believe it would be real useful in culling the older 5 pts, you can bet the farm that a ton of raghorn 5pt would also be taken, and we would just start finding abandoned 4pts.

A 3pt or better season for a week would likely be just as good and would result in fewer illegal kills and would put more harvest on the younger animals that have a higher natural mortality rate. For this reason the 3pt and smaller hunt J_T suggests would also likely be a sustainable season.

Thinking back to the several threads on this topic from last year, it's obvioulsly more than sustainability thats involved, it's also a very heavily discussed social decision as well.

Regarding a winter kill and starting over from scratch, that's more likely going to happen if we maintain the status-quo since we're probably near to, at, or maybe even over carrying capacity, the winter ranges are not in good shape, and that is the situation where severe losses occur when a bad winter comes along. This situation is exasperated by the high White Tailed Deer populations and cattle grazing as well. It might also be important right now to get the WTD population under control as well. How about an "any deer" GOS for WTD like Saskatchewan and Alberta have? If it were implemanted on a provincial basis it would probably disperse hunters over the entire southern half of the province.

[BCRiverBoater]

That is the problem with a 3 pt season. A majority of the 5's being taken will be young bulls that are not yet breeding. If you could cull the old boys it would be a perfect world.

[6616]

I understand that some more habitat enhancement (controlled burns) of the winter ranges is needed and then the CP could easily double.

I doubt if it could double Bill, but it could undoubtedly go up and ER is certainly the key. We are getting about 2000 HA of ER work done per year depending on the burning window and total costs to bring a single Ha to full phase restoration is nearly $1000.00 for some projects. We're currently stressing the funding sources to the limit.

[finish]

I could see a 10 day 5 point season, this year I have seen alot of 6's. The herds are gettin BIG!! Alot of Bulls, and cows. I would not want to see a three point season at all, it would be a slaughter. I have also heard a "RUMOUR" that there may be a GOS on cow and calf next year....JUST a RUMOUR as of now.... I hope this DOES NOT happen'!!!!!!!

[Fisher-Dude]

Having a 6 point season all the time may not be a good thing long term but I know that a 3 point season is not good long term either.

Really? So the three decades of sustainable 3 point season, with twice the number of hunters than we currently have, was not good long term? The elk herd was in fact increasing substantially with the 3 point season, to the point where the die off occurred and large amounts of crop depradation were happening. Thirty years of history showing no conservation concern from harvest doesn't prove to you that 3 point season isn't good for elk long term?

[6616]

I have also heard a "RUMOUR" that there may be a GOS on cow and calf next year....JUST a RUMOUR as of now.... I hope this DOES NOT happen'!!!!!!!

A GOS on cow/calf would have to be very short and probably below the 1100 meter elevation. I cannot see it happening, but if it does and you think the youth/senior season is a gong show, just wait. What might help a lot is if it coincides with a similar season in the Peace to disperse the pressure a little....

[BCRiverBoater]

Really? So the three decades of sustainable 3 point season, with twice the number of hunters than we currently have, was not good long term? The elk herd was in fact increasing substantially with the 3 point season, to the point where the die off occurred and large amounts of crop depradation were happening. Thirty years of history showing no conservation concern from harvest doesn't prove to you that 3 point season isn't good for elk long term?

Not going to argue with you as I am not a biologist and do not pretend to be one. I know around FSJ we had a 3 point season for 10 days years and years ago. They went to 6 point or better and the population exploded.

I do not know the ins and outs but I feel an open season long term for one or the other may not be the way to go. I think you need to do counts and talk to the GO and see what is happening with the herds year to year.

The wide open season this year in 7-20 is a slaughter and will have effects we will need to live with for years. If it is only done once this year then we should be fine but longer than that and we may be in trouble.

But who am I to judge. I do not hol a degree. Only going by past articles etc.

[Elkaholic]

Not going to argue with you as I am not a biologist and do not pretend to be one. I know around FSJ we had a 3 point season for 10 days years and years ago. They went to 6 point or better and the population exploded.

I do not know the ins and outs but I feel an open season long term for one or the other may not be the way to go. I think you need to do counts and talk to the GO and see what is happening with the herds year to year.

The wide open season this year in 7-20 is a slaughter and will have effects we will need to live with for years. If it is only done once this year then we should be fine but longer than that and we may be in trouble.

But who am I to judge. I do not hol a degree. Only going by past articles etc.

6 pt season is a short-term tool used to bring the numbers up. It is not meant as a long term solution at all. I am in full agreement with FD on this one. 3pt season should be viable without any issues. Sure more bulls will get shot but don't you think that most folks will shoot the first legal bull that comes their way, thus leaving the herd bull to do his duty and pass on the genetics? I think that the groups that balk at changing the season should let the damn BIO here do his job and do what he thinks is right for the herd.

[J_T]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Hermit http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=329141#post329141)
I understand that some more habitat enhancement (controlled burns) of the winter ranges is needed and then the CP could easily double.

I doubt if it could double Bill, but it could undoubtedly go up and ER is certainly the key. We are getting about 2000 HA of ER work done per year depending on the burning window and total costs to bring a single Ha to full phase restoration is nearly $1000.00 for some projects. We're currently stressing the funding sources to the limit. Of course Andy whenever we talk about carrying capacity of today versus yesterday we have to factor in the total loss of habitat in today's world due to high fencing.


A GOS on cow/calf would have to be very short and probably below the 1100 meter elevation. I cannot see it happening, but if it does and you think the youth/senior season is a gong show, just wait. What might help a lot is if it coincides with a similar season in the Peace to disperse the pressure a little.... I agree, the pressure in every definition of the word, would be intense. It might be a one time solution to reduce populations, but likely not sustainable as a recurring opportunity.

I believe the current opportunities/strategies in the trench are having a positive impact on managing elk numbers in the agricultural lands. As a hunter, I want more elk. Ranchers want many less.

[6616]

Of course Andy whenever we talk about carrying capacity of today versus yesterday we have to factor in the total loss of habitat in today's world due to high fencing.

About 11,000 Ha of private land behind exclusion fences today, if remember the number correctly.

[bozzdrywall]

Ok to set the record straight Iam not talking about a three or better season iam talking about a five or better season. the only reason is to get rid of some of the genetic five points out there and to let the big bulls the six point or better bulls do there thing and let the strong genetics come through. And for all out there that dont belive that there is such thing as a genetic five point do some more research because there is and there will always be. Now iam not a lazy hunter that just wants to tag a bull. But i am a hunter that wants to see the bigger stronger bulls out there. I walk alot of km in a season and i know some of the best areas for elk and from what i can see is there is more and more five points out there than there used to be. Iam still young but i have put my time in to hunting these beutiful creatures. And for the most part i just would like to see more big six points out there. Not the HUGE fives that are spoilling the gen. pool by giving out bad five point gen. Not that there are totaly bad its just making less sixes for us to hunt. JUST MY OPINION

[J_T]

Ok to set the record straight Iam not talking about a three or better season iam talking about a five or better season. the only reason is to get rid of some of the genetic five points out there and to let the big bulls the six point or better bulls do there thing and let the strong genetics come through.Yup, I understand that. And I respect your thoughts.

While many will quote science to suggest that the genes of a 6pt are still prevelent in the herd in cows and in smaller bulls. I'm not so sure that reasoning is sound.

The best bulls are the best breeders. An immature bull, even if he has the genes for 6pt, might poke the cow, but he may not substantially complete the deal. It takes a herd bull that has worked hard with heart and determination to become that herd bull and to breed well.

We have hunted our 6's hard and now we consider a big 5pt a herd bull. Which they are, but it is the seed of the 5pt (never to be a 6) that is taking over. I feel, we may be eliminating 6pt bulls by focusing the hunt entirely on them.

My position is, if we open up the hunt to 5 or better, we are taking out any herd type bulls remaining. And soon we will have forgotten about 6 pts, we'll be thinking about those darn 4 pts, which will never become 5's.

We have to diversify our elk harvest and elk hunting opportunities taking the pressure off of those 6's, those herd bulls.

As 6616 said earlier. All discussion on elk is as much social and moral to the hunter as it is biological to those responsible for management. We probably aren't going to resolve it here. But.... We must work to create opportunity for all hunters, while managing our wildlife appropriately.

Spikes and 3 pts are basically yearlings and 2 year olds. Many 5 pts are 2 year olds. These animals probably provide many hunters with a higher chance of success and they will cater to the needs of the meat hunter and remove pressure off or our herd bulls, without negatively impacting our herd populations.

For what it's worth, I was in close on over 15 bulls this past bow only season. Not one a 6 pt and some very strange horn configurations.

3pt or less.

[6616]

I think J_T is right. The best scenario would be if the harvest was a cross-section of the population, some cows, some calves, some young bulls, not just old bulls. Maintain normal population densities of all age classes and thus maintain a functional and natural elk herd age structure.

A short (one week) five or better season would allow the harvest of some young bulls and thus might (I repeat might) reduce the harvest of older bulls, but would definitely spread the harvest over a wider range of bull age classes.

I don't know if it would change or eliminate the genetics of "5 forever bulls" because there's no way to concentrate the harvest on those older 5pt herd bulls. Young 2 1/2 and 3 1/2 five pointers would probably make up the bulk of the harvest.

I don't think overall, it would be a bad thing.

[bozzdrywall]

Thank you. At least someone understands what iam trying to say. Iam no expert but my thoughts are just food to chew on so to speak.

[6616]

Thank you. At least someone understands what iam trying to say. Iam no expert but my thoughts are just food to chew on so to speak.

Your concerns have been reiterated by hunters and biologists for decades. Antler point regulations for deer, moose, elk, etc. as well as horn curl regulations for sheep have always been a topic of dicussion regarding genetic modifications to specific populations. I don't know if there's any real facts or if there's any research been done on this, but there's sure a lot of theory out there on it. A research project to dig deeply into this matter I'm guessing would require many years of controlled and consistently gathered data, probably 30 years worth or more. We may never know the answer to this.

What is known and has been researched quite a bit is what the potential effects of antler point and horn curl regulations do to age class and social stucture in a heavily hunted wildlife population, and it's pretty much agreed between biologists that these should not be maintained as long term management strategies.

Do not be concerned about sheep in the EK and the effects of the full curl horn regulation. We harvest 35 to 45 sheep per year out of a population of 2300 and that does not consitute a heavily hunted population.