sheep regs

[bayou]

With all the threads on sheep age and legalitys etc was wondering what changes if any may benifit the sheep and hunter.
Some of mine would be if stones went on a one in 5 or 10 year system and bighorn (region 4) went on the same or LEH or even one in lifetime.
Just wondering what some other thoughts may be.

[kgriz]

I would like to know the annual harvest of sheep by residents vs guide outfitted hunts before I threw around ideas like that.......I could only get one per 5 or lifetime when outfitters are filling 30 -40 tags per area around Ft. Nelson?! I think not.

[bighornbob]

With all the threads on sheep age and legalitys etc was wondering what changes if any may benifit the sheep and hunter.
Some of mine would be if stones went on a one in 5 or 10 year system and bighorn (region 4) went on the same or LEH or even one in lifetime.
Just wondering what some other thoughts may be.


Why would you want sheep on LEH??? when a regular season is quite sustainable. I think ther are only about 15 rams killed a year in the kooteneys. There numbers are not a concern so why limit the hunters.

If you want LEH for bighorns or once in a life time tags I suggest you dont hunt sheep here and start hunting sheep in the states. Guys down there oon the same sysytem you are suggesting would give their first born to be able to hunt sheep like we do.

BHB

[Bighorn hunter]

Why would you want sheep on LEH??? when a regular season is quite sustainable. I think ther are only about 15 rams killed a year in the kooteneys. There numbers are not a concern so why limit the hunters.

If you want LEH for bighorns or once in a life time tags I suggest you dont hunt sheep here and start hunting sheep in the states. Guys down there oon the same sysytem you are suggesting would give their first born to be able to hunt sheep like we do.

BHB


Ditto

BHH

[whitetailsheds]

I would only hope that if resident opportunity were decreased, that GO quotas would reflect this reduction. I can understand reduction in terms of conservation (as I'm sure alot on here would agree), but could not accurately comment on this without knowing sheep numbers.
Chasing them (stones) around as long as I have, I would hate to sit (whatever length of time) while non-residents were busy filling their tags.
Historically, a rift (percieved or not) between resident and GO has existed. Something such as reducing resident opportunities would only flare this up even more if not met with some sort of equal reduction.

[Gateholio]

With all the threads on sheep age and legalitys etc was wondering what changes if any may benifit the sheep and hunter.
Some of mine would be if stones went on a one in 5 or 10 year system and bighorn (region 4) went on the same or LEH or even one in lifetime.
Just wondering what some other thoughts may be.

What purpose woudl this serve?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

As I heard a sheep bio once say "Look after your ewes and lambs and you will have rams".

Just south of the border they are shooting huge calis but I'll take "opportunity" over that any day of the week.

SSS

[Deaddog]

stone sheep are not even close to being harvested to the extent we should look at leh's , particularly in region 6, I can't think of a better way to turn people off of hunting than a leh system as suggested.

[6616]

Resident hunters are currently not fully utilizing their share of the sheep harvest. In the East Kootenay's residents kill 15 to 20 sheep per year and the outfitters fully utilize their target harvest of 15 rams. Outfitters are killing almost as many sheep as residents, yet the allocation for residents in the EK is supposed to be 67% to 70%. Same up north, residents are not utilizing their allocation in many areas.

Regulations for sheep probably need to be loosened up, not tightened up.

If the AAH is accurate and sustainable and there's not a conservation concern, there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to use our full allocated share. If we don't at some time in the future it wil be transferred to outfitters. If there is a conservation concern then the AAH is too high and the overall harvest allocation needs to be reduced equally for both residents and non-residents and the allocation percentages maintained, but that's not the case, current AAHs appear to be sustainable so there's not really a conservation concern.

So my suggestion would be to lengthen the sheep season in the EK 5 days to allow residents to shoot a few more sheep. By that time of year (late October) the outfitters are tagged out already and they cannot increase their harvest anyway since they're on a fixed and closely regulated quota.

Up north there could be a 1 week period where sheep are only open to resident hunters, perhaps the opening week of the season or something like that, to allow residents to increase their harvest.

Further restricting BC resident hunters who are supposed to have priority over non-residents, at a time when we're not meeting our target harvest is definitely the wrong direction to go. There are only about 5000 or 6000 sheep hunters in BC. A one in 5 or one in 3 bag limit only takes the dedicated sheep hunters out of the game after a couple of years and resident harvest would decrease rapidly. That was proven in the Peace region when the one in 3 was in place and that's why it was removed. A one in a lifetime would be even worse, after a few years resident harvet would be practically non-existent and sheep hunting in BC would eventually become a solely non-resident activity.

[Krico]

The 1 sheep in 3 years was bad enough for breaking up hunting parties and keeping residents out of the mountains.
Is a once in a lifetime shooting fish in a barrel the kind of hunt you want? With no competition?
I suggest you head to a game ranch in the US.

[Avalanche123]

From what I have read, the sheep numbers are doing ok so I feel there is no need to change anything at this time.

Once in a life time draw would kill the sport.

Here is my only suggestion. Thow your support behind the Talthan and get rid of the proposed Red Chris Mine in Northern BC which threatens to negatively impact a productive sheep area.

[bayou]

I didnt think this would be to popular for most would think it takes a way there chance to shot something.Some thougths are if they are on a 1 in 5 people may think a bit more before shooting a questionable ram and this may improve the quality, Leh can better control the harvest and local, break it into Mus not all of region 4, so roughly you say 30 rams are taken in region 4 each year but add in the other half dozen are so that are hit by veichles and maybe the odd illegal one, personal I feel the quality, and amount has gone down incertain areas in the last 30 years and hunting pressure has gone way up.
Every one is different I dont see how this breaks up partys etc unless you wont go if you cant kill something. I havent shot a ram since 84 and have still hunted them every year since dont even pack a gun just go with others but for me its just about being out there dont have to be the shooter.
To answer a few of the comments BHB in the past I have applied in the states for sheep draws and think there system works and they produce some very nice sheep. Gatehouse for you it doesnt really matter about regs anyway for as you have already sated you have shot 2 biggame animals with out tags so you dont follow the laws anyway.
In the long run I think it may produce better rams and better opurtunity and will still produce the same amount of harvest

[Gateholio]

. Gatehouse for you it doesnt really matter about regs anyway for as you have already sated you have shot 2 biggame animals with out tags so you dont follow the laws anyway.


Please explain.

[daycort]

In the long run I think it may produce better rams and better opurtunity and will still produce the same amount of harvest

For who??? to you have some stats for this?? I have relatives in the states and they just drool over the fact that we can buy over the counter tags for stone and bighorn sheep.

Besides there has been some tremendous rams (thinhorn,bighorn) taken in the past 3 years that are very good trophies and rank high in the B&C book.

[6616]

I didnt think this would be to popular for most would think it takes a way there chance to shot something.Some thougths are if they are on a 1 in 5 people may think a bit more before shooting a questionable ram and this may improve the quality, Leh can better control the harvest and local, break it into Mus not all of region 4, so roughly you say 30 rams are taken in region 4 each year but add in the other half dozen are so that are hit by veichles and maybe the odd illegal one, personal I feel the quality, and amount has gone down incertain areas in the last 30 years and hunting pressure has gone way up.
Every one is different I dont see how this breaks up partys etc unless you wont go if you cant kill something. I havent shot a ram since 84 and have still hunted them every year since dont even pack a gun just go with others but for me its just about being out there dont have to be the shooter.
To answer a few of the comments BHB in the past I have applied in the states for sheep draws and think there system works and they produce some very nice sheep. Gatehouse for you it doesnt really matter about regs anyway for as you have already sated you have shot 2 biggame animals with out tags so you dont follow the laws anyway.
In the long run I think it may produce better rams and better opurtunity and will still produce the same amount of harvest

First of all it does not need to be broken down into MUs in Region 4, there are only sheep on the east side of the Trench in the East Kootenay or about 1/4 of the MUs in Region 4.
Second, quality has not gone down, book rams are shot in the EK every year. hunting pressure has not gone up, in fact it's gone way down. Hunters days are less then 1/3 of what they were 20 years ago for sheep. Resident harvest has gone down more than 50% because of this lack of participation and fewer number of sheep hunters.

Does that sound like a scenario where more restrictions are needed that will eventually reduce the number of resident sheep hunters even further?

Are you a guide outfitter?

[BCRiverBoater]

I didnt think this would be to popular for most would think it takes a way there chance to shot something.Some thougths are if they are on a 1 in 5 people may think a bit more before shooting a questionable ram and this may improve the quality, Leh can better control the harvest and local, break it into Mus not all of region 4, so roughly you say 30 rams are taken in region 4 each year but add in the other half dozen are so that are hit by veichles and maybe the odd illegal one, personal I feel the quality, and amount has gone down incertain areas in the last 30 years and hunting pressure has gone way up.
Every one is different I dont see how this breaks up partys etc unless you wont go if you cant kill something. I havent shot a ram since 84 and have still hunted them every year since dont even pack a gun just go with others but for me its just about being out there dont have to be the shooter.
To answer a few of the comments BHB in the past I have applied in the states for sheep draws and think there system works and they produce some very nice sheep. Gatehouse for you it doesnt really matter about regs anyway for as you have already sated you have shot 2 biggame animals with out tags so you dont follow the laws anyway.
In the long run I think it may produce better rams and better opurtunity and will still produce the same amount of harvest


Way more questionable rams would shot. Way more immature rams would be shot. If you only get drawn once in 5 years at best then most hunters would shoot the first legal ram they think they see. Hunters pass up rams in quest for the big hawg because we know we can hunt them every year and up our chances at the B&C ram of a lifetime. If I only get a few chances in a lifetime to hunt then I would have a hard time passing up a smaller, young ram.

[bayou]

First of all it does not need to be broken down into MUs in Region 4, there are only sheep on the east side of the Trench in the East Kootenay or about 1/4 of the MUs in Region 4.
Second, quality has not gone down, book rams are shot in the EK every year. hunting pressure has not gone up, in fact it's gone way down. Hunters days are less then 1/3 of what they were 20 years ago for sheep. Resident harvest has gone down more than 50% because of this lack of participation and fewer number of sheep hunters.

Does that sound like a scenario where more restrictions are needed that will eventually reduce the number of resident sheep hunters even further?

Are you a guide outfitter?
No not an outfitter but have worked for a couple in the past.
When I first posted this I kinda meant it for serious sheep hunters that knew the seasons were open in only certain mus in region 4. For one there is only seasons for harvest on the east side doeent mean theres no sheep on the other side.
Im not much for stats that may not be true Im more into seeing what goes on and out there,you say resident harvest has gone down because of lack of participaction but maybe its because of lack of sheep its just a matter of which way you choose to look at it.
Yes book rams are shot every year and some rather large ones but the majority of them may becoming from one general area and the larger ones are shot on LEH special draw go figure.
Lots of othe MUs that used to produce large rams just dont any more.

[bayou]

Way more questionable rams would shot. Way more immature rams would be shot. If you only get drawn once in 5 years at best then most hunters would shoot the first legal ram they think they see. Hunters pass up rams in quest for the big hawg because we know we can hunt them every year and up our chances at the B&C ram of a lifetime. If I only get a few chances in a lifetime to hunt then I would have a hard time passing up a smaller, young ram.


Thats not how I meant it for stones, they would not be on draw, you could buy a tag and hunt every year but if you shot one you had to wait 5 or 10 years to shoot another, therefore in my opinion more reason to look for that one special ram

[jml11]

Thats not how I meant it for stones, they would not be on draw, you could buy a tag and hunt every year but if you shot one you had to wait 5 or 10 years to shoot another, therefore in my opinion more reason to look for that one special ram


That would be the dumbest thing a manager could implement. How would the non-resident allocation be affected then???? If this was implemented and no changes to the non-resident allocation were made then the sheep harvest would still be the same as the guide outfitters would get all the tags. Remember the ministry has a target harvest per year and there is no way that could be maintained if every resident sheep hunter could only harvest one sheep every decade! IMO the guide outfitters would be given more tags to compensate and you would end up with tons of PO'd resident hunters and no one would be hunting anymore. If any management changes, the non-resident allocation has to be changed first. At least that is how it is supposed to work!!!

[6616]

Im not much for stats that may not be true Im more into seeing what goes on and out there,you say resident harvest has gone down because of lack of participaction but maybe its because of lack of sheep its just a matter of which way you choose to look at it.
Yes book rams are shot every year and some rather large ones but the majority of them may becoming from one general area and the larger ones are shot on LEH special draw go figure.
Lots of othe MUs that used to produce large rams just dont any more.

I know you don't like stats but you need to know the stats before making any decision Bayou. The population estimate for the East Kootenay is 2300 sheep, up from 1600 in the mid 80’s following a Pasturella disease event. The population estimate is current and up to date and has been slowly and steadily increasing since 1990. It was about 3000 before the mid-eighties die-off, but we probably cannot carry that many right now simply because the habitat suitability does not exist anymore and there’s too much competition from elk. It’s not stricter regulations that we need, it’s habitat enhancement, so the answer is to support the Forest District Eco-System Restoration Program.

There is always concerns for the well being of the sheep herd, but there is no conservation concern for sheep that could be blamed on current sheep hunting regulations or harvest levels.

Sheep are doing well in the Radium/Canal Flats area, and in the Flathead/Wigwam/Elk Valley area. The only place they’re not doing so good is between the Steeples and Premier Ridge and the reason is thought to be habitat closure due to forest in-growth. Predation is also always a factor whenever habitat closure occurs. MOE is currently doing habitat work there and transplanting sheep into there from Golden and Radium.

The LEH areas are not producing sheep harvest for residents. None have been shot in Salmo or Mount Assiniboine by residents for several years now and only one has been shot in Phillips Creek in the last five years.

Residents were shooting 70 to 90 sheep a year in the early 1990’s, there were over 500 resident sheep hunters hunting in the EK, and nearly 5000 resident hunter days of participation.

Today the annual resident harvest is 15 to 20 rams per year, there are less then 200 residents hunting sheep in the EK and less then 1800 hunter days…..and, there were less sheep in 1990 then there are today. There is also a lot more access management today then there was in the early 90’s.

It’s not really just how you look at it at all,,,, gut instinct is not good enough and cannot replace scientific management, you need to be armed with all the facts before making decisions and the data is extensive. Jumping to conclusions, like saying it could be because there’s fewer sheep, without the benefit of knowing all the facts is dangerous. Sorry to be so critical Bayou, but please find out the all facts first, then suggest what we should do, not the other way around.

Unless you are OK with more of the AAH being allocated to non-residents and less to residents in the future, we need to encourage participation, not discourage it by creating more restrictions.

[6616]

Here is my only suggestion. Thow your support behind the Talthan and get rid of the proposed Red Chris Mine in Northern BC which threatens to negatively impact a productive sheep area.

Now this is the kind of thing we should be putting our effort behind. There are real threats to sheep out there. Hunting harvest is not a threat, real or percieved.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Thats not how I meant it for stones, they would not be on draw, you could buy a tag and hunt every year but if you shot one you had to wait 5 or 10 years to shoot another, therefore in my opinion more reason to look for that one special ram

When the regs in 7 B switched to a 1/3 rule regardless of the age of a ram resident harvest started to quickly drop. Hunting parties began to split up. It's hard to find a good hunting partner but finding a good sheep hunting partner is a much harder task.

I know two guys that chased Stone's together for many years. One guy tagged out on a 8 1/2 yr old ram back a few years and they haven't hunted together since. I know the regs have changed since then but it was enough time for them to find other plans and goals(other sheep)...and other partners.

Since the regs have been relaxed, both resident participation and harvest have increased substancially.

SSS

[bayou]

When the regs in 7 B switched to a 1/3 rule regardless of the age of a ram resident harvest started to quickly drop. Hunting parties began to split up. It's hard to find a good hunting partner but finding a good sheep hunting partner is a much harder task.

I know two guys that chased Stone's together for many years. One guy tagged out on a 8 1/2 yr old ram back a few years and they haven't hunted together since. I know the regs have changed since then but it was enough time for them to find other plans and goals(other sheep)...and other partners.

Since the regs have been relaxed, both resident participation and harvest have increased substancially.

SSS
I see what your saying but then in my opinion he wasnt really that great if he wasnt willing to still go along same thing can happen with the way it is now once a guy gets his sheep his prioritys change even though his buddy didnt get his he may not want to go the next year, Im pretty sure not every group that goes hunting all tag out on sheep togther, I think you said somewhere else you were headed out today if your trying to beat some of the foot races good luck and maybe see you on the mountain.

[bayou]

I know you don't like stats but you need to know the stats before making any decision Bayou. The population estimate for the East Kootenay is 2300 sheep, up from 1600 in the mid 80’s following a Pasturella disease event. The population estimate is current and up to date and has been slowly and steadily increasing since 1990. It was about 3000 before the mid-eighties die-off, but we probably cannot carry that many right now simply because the habitat suitability does not exist anymore and there’s too much competition from elk. It’s not stricter regulations that we need, it’s habitat enhancement, so the answer is to support the Forest District Eco-System Restoration Program.

There is always concerns for the well being of the sheep herd, but there is no conservation concern for sheep that could be blamed on current sheep hunting regulations or harvest levels.

Sheep are doing well in the Radium/Canal Flats area, and in the Flathead/Wigwam/Elk Valley area. The only place they’re not doing so good is between the Steeples and Premier Ridge and the reason is thought to be habitat closure due to forest in-growth. Predation is also always a factor whenever habitat closure occurs. MOE is currently doing habitat work there and transplanting sheep into there from Golden and Radium.

The LEH areas are not producing sheep harvest for residents. None have been shot in Salmo or Mount Assiniboine by residents for several years now and only one has been shot in Phillips Creek in the last five years.

Residents were shooting 70 to 90 sheep a year in the early 1990’s, there were over 500 resident sheep hunters hunting in the EK, and nearly 5000 resident hunter days of participation.

Today the annual resident harvest is 15 to 20 rams per year, there are less then 200 residents hunting sheep in the EK and less then 1800 hunter days…..and, there were less sheep in 1990 then there are today. There is also a lot more access management today then there was in the early 90’s.

It’s not really just how you look at it at all,,,, gut instinct is not good enough and cannot replace scientific management, you need to be armed with all the facts before making decisions and the data is extensive. Jumping to conclusions, like saying it could be because there’s fewer sheep, without the benefit of knowing all the facts is dangerous. Sorry to be so critical Bayou, but please find out the all facts first, then suggest what we should do, not the other way around.

Unless you are OK with more of the AAH being allocated to non-residents and less to residents in the future, we need to encourage participation, not discourage it by creating more restrictions.
Like I said not really a stat guy kinda beleive the guys that are out there 12months outa the year for quit a few years not guys that are there a week or 2.
I dont think I ever said my sugestions were because ofconservation concern because of harvest or regs I do think if they were implemented they may cause more legal rams thus more opertunity.
Your numbers are kinda right less hunters and time equals less sheep harvested but lots of things could come into play, going by your numbers the 300 less hunters may have allready shot there sheep so nolonger have interest in sheep hunting.
Some herd numbers may be up but thats total sheep you can only harvest legal rams so if there not there then this could be why numbers are down In my opinion in certain herds the amount of legal rams is down.
As for man days of participaction it depends what you call sheep hunting a guy can buy a tag and drive around all season on the chance he sees a sheep (which happens) and mark down he hunted sheep for 30 days not real accurate in my mind.
As for LEH I was suggesting the special permits but since you bring up others lets use assiniboine for example if you no the area you no the early tag is not really any good it takes late season and weather to get the rams there dont quote me but I think this is why the season was extended for the outfitter in there a while back,In the last 10 years are so I have known about 5 of the tag holders some could have shot sheep but were holding out for something better and also lots put in for there with not really knowing what there up against so dont even go, so to say there not producing is kinda false, the outfitter seems to have fairly goood success.
Its all in how you look or interpirate the facts, you write them to look one way I see them a different way, Thats why I said it was just suggestions and an opinion.
The radium to flats herd dont winter on there traditional areas any more even tho these areas have been some what inhanced, it looks like the best inhance ment may be fairways and greens.
For me I will still go out(hunt) by what ever rules or regs you and GG say are best for everyone but you should also look at all the facts or factors.

[Avalanche123]

Why are we making a problem up for something that doesn't exist. Are you feeling argumentative bayou? Just curious.....

You started off looking for peoples opinion and now your last sentence suggests the opposite? What gives.....?

[bayou]

[quote=Avalanche123;325204]Why are we making a problem up for something that doesn't exist. Are you feeling argumentative bayou? Just curious.....

You started off looking for peoples opinion and now your last sentence suggests the opposite? What gives.....?[/quot
Sorry Dr Phil just expressing my opinion to his last comment its all in how you interpreted it.

[Fisher-Dude]

Yeah, we know exactly how a lack of information and "someone's opinion" can result in incorrect wildlife management decisions being made. I had to laugh at one of the local guide/outfitters who piped up at our FHAC meeting with the biologists this past April, saying how the hunting pressure has increased HUGE on the region 8 elk in the past 10 years. "It's more than doubled" he claimed. GoatGuy pulls up the REAL stats on his laptop, and lo and behold, elk hunting pressure (man days and license sales) have DECREASED 60% in the past 10 years in region 8. The guide's response was to call the bio after the meeting, dis GG for telling the truth, and told him to shove the stats up his ass and go with his (the G/O's) "opinion" because it was "common sense".

Preconceived notions, and misconceptions "because I saw two sheep hunters last year instead of one", does NOT mean that hunting pressure has increased. The truth, which is found in hunting statistics and population inventories, paints a totally different picture.:wink:

[SHAKER]

[quote=Fisher-Dude;325216]Yeah, we know exactly how a lack of information and "someone's opinion" can result in incorrect wildlife management decisions being made. I had to laugh at one of the local guide/outfitters who piped up at our FHAC meeting with the biologists this past April, saying how the hunting pressure has increased HUGE on the region 8 elk in the past 10 years. "It's more than doubled" he claimed. GoatGuy pulls up the REAL stats on his laptop, and lo and behold, elk hunting pressure (man days and license sales) have DECREASED 60% in the past 10 years in region 8. The guide's response was to call the bio after the meeting, dis GG for telling the truth, and told him to shove the stats up his ass and go with his (the G/O's) "opinion" because it was "common sense".

That wouldn't really happen would it??????:wink:
I wouldn't even think the ministry would ever take the GO's word over us poor resident hunters.




Hang on here..............just had a another sip of coffee! Hey that happens all the time!:twisted:

[Avalanche123]

[/quot
Sorry Dr Phil just expressing my opinion to his last comment its all in how you interpreted it.[/quote]

Yep that statement alone speaks volumes.....

So back to my question....what gives?

[Kitimat Killer]

look i had once in a life time tag and used it with pride and shot a really nice bighorn but am thinking of going back down to try my luck for a open season ram why would you want once in a life time tag when we have more sheep in are province the only one to have all 4 diffrent kinds of sheep and not get a chance to hunt them that would mean all the u.s guys who have the bigbucks to shoot all are sheep thats jsut not right i love the privlage we have to hunt sheep and love doing it every year why would you want that taken away from us

[bayou]

[/quot
Sorry Dr Phil just expressing my opinion to his last comment its all in how you interpreted it.

Yep that statement alone speaks volumes.....

So back to my question....what gives?[/quote]


All ready answered question.
All so tried to show how stats can be falsified but some wont believe that, as said before I will beleive the people that are in the area more often then someone from the okanogan or coast(other area) that spends a week or two there and thinks they no whats best for everyone. Its just opinions not saying mines any better.
I do no a few bios that I really trust there opinion and feel they no what they are talking about.

[6616]

Like I said not really a stat guy kinda beleive the guys that are out there 12months outa the year for quit a few years not guys that are there a week or 2.
I dont think I ever said my sugestions were because ofconservation concern because of harvest or regs I do think if they were implemented they may cause more legal rams thus more opertunity.
Your numbers are kinda right less hunters and time equals less sheep harvested but lots of things could come into play, going by your numbers the 300 less hunters may have allready shot there sheep so nolonger have interest in sheep hunting.
Some herd numbers may be up but thats total sheep you can only harvest legal rams so if there not there then this could be why numbers are down In my opinion in certain herds the amount of legal rams is down.
As for man days of participaction it depends what you call sheep hunting a guy can buy a tag and drive around all season on the chance he sees a sheep (which happens) and mark down he hunted sheep for 30 days not real accurate in my mind.
As for LEH I was suggesting the special permits but since you bring up others lets use assiniboine for example if you no the area you no the early tag is not really any good it takes late season and weather to get the rams there dont quote me but I think this is why the season was extended for the outfitter in there a while back,In the last 10 years are so I have known about 5 of the tag holders some could have shot sheep but were holding out for something better and also lots put in for there with not really knowing what there up against so dont even go, so to say there not producing is kinda false, the outfitter seems to have fairly goood success.
Its all in how you look or interpirate the facts, you write them to look one way I see them a different way, Thats why I said it was just suggestions and an opinion.
The radium to flats herd dont winter on there traditional areas any more even tho these areas have been some what inhanced, it looks like the best inhance ment may be fairways and greens.
For me I will still go out(hunt) by what ever rules or regs you and GG say are best for everyone but you should also look at all the facts or factors.

Do we support scientific wildlife management or not? What's more scientific, professional biologists using up to date population estimates, harvest records and all available detailed data, or mere observation by non-professionals? Observation may have it's place but observation by non-professional is much different than observations by professionals who are more qualified to interpret the observations made.

I really don't see any problem requiring more restrictive regulations but everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours Bayou, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree in this particular case. I just do not comprehend how LEH or a 1 in 5 year bag limit could produce "more" opportunity. Opportunity for whom? There are only about 5000 resident sheep hunters in BC and that number is declining, so why would we want to take the dedicated sheep hunters out of the game?

[6616]

For me I will still go out(hunt) by what ever rules or regs you and GG say are best for everyone but you should also look at all the facts or factors.

Note the concensus of opinions posted, I don't think it's just me. GG did not even post on this thread did he?

[6616]

Yeah, we know exactly how a lack of information and "someone's opinion" can result in incorrect wildlife management decisions being made. I had to laugh at one of the local guide/outfitters who piped up at our FHAC meeting with the biologists this past April, saying how the hunting pressure has increased HUGE on the region 8 elk in the past 10 years. "It's more than doubled" he claimed. GoatGuy pulls up the REAL stats on his laptop, and lo and behold, elk hunting pressure (man days and license sales) have DECREASED 60% in the past 10 years in region 8. The guide's response was to call the bio after the meeting, dis GG for telling the truth, and told him to shove the stats up his ass and go with his (the G/O's) "opinion" because it was "common sense".

Preconceived notions, and misconceptions "because I saw two sheep hunters last year instead of one", does NOT mean that hunting pressure has increased. The truth, which is found in hunting statistics and population inventories, paints a totally different picture.:wink:

We are in a vulnerable state in wildlife management in BC these days. Public opinions and public consultation are threatening to take the ability to adequately manage wildlife away from the professional managers (biologists). Managers need the ability to make scientific wildlife management decisions and not just act as mediators between public interest groups.

[Fisher-Dude]

As for man days of participaction it depends what you call sheep hunting a guy can buy a tag and drive around all season on the chance he sees a sheep (which happens) and mark down he hunted sheep for 30 days not real accurate in my mind.


So stats show that resident sheep hunting days are declining, and you suggest that many of those days are piss-poor efforts by guys driving around for 30 days, rather than pounding the hillsides in their Meindels like you did in 1984. Yet, you suggest we need to limit days hunted even further? If the few days that we are spending out there now are piss-poor efforts, they should have little effect on the sheep populations, and that flies squarely in the face of your argument for more restrictions.

The more I read your replies bayou, the more I believe that your attitude is that you have your rams on the wall already, so to hell with the rest of us who don't.

[6616]

We are in a vulnerable state in wildlife management in BC these days. Public opinions and public consultation are threatening to take the ability to adequately manage wildlife away from the professional managers (biologists). Managers need the ability to make scientific wildlife management decisions and not just act as mediators between public interest groups.

Let me clarify my above statement before someone takes it out of context. There are indeed social implications of wildlife management where public and stakeholder input is justified and required. Once social objectives have been discussed and agreed upon meeting them is usually an area of technical and scientific application and should be left to professionals.

The lines between the two are somewhat blurry and some overlap appears to exist. For example many management objectives are biologically required and thus are not just social considerations alone.

I believe forums like this serve a very useful purpose, members hear and thus consider more options, opinions and positions from each other (whether we agree or not) and are thus quite possibly better equipped to participate in MOE public consultation processes.

[bayou]

So stats show that resident sheep hunting days are declining, and you suggest that many of those days are piss-poor efforts by guys driving around for 30 days, rather than pounding the hillsides in their Meindels like you did in 1984. Yet, you suggest we need to limit days hunted even further? If the few days that we are spending out there now are piss-poor efforts, they should have little effect on the sheep populations, and that flies squarely in the face of your argument for more restrictions.

The more I read your replies bayou, the more I believe that your attitude is that you have your rams on the wall already, so to hell with the rest of us who don't.
FD wont waste much time on you for we will never see eye to eye you can tell your a stats type guy only post bits and dont really read the whole thing. Could also be how I word things for I am no writer.
I have been helping others ever since 84 find spot pack out rams etc.
Never said any ones days where piss poor efforts dont think I said to limit days dont think what I said had anything to do with retrictment argument it was about stats and yes back a few years ago it was a lot easier to find rams on the road or from trucks.
My point was the cards sent out to fill in about days hunted etc can be filled in anyway to benifit a persons cause you have a wallet full of tags and are out looking for anything if a sheep steps out its sheep if elk then elk but fill in all days out as lookking for one animal. So yes the stats can be falsly altered to help certain peoples causes out.
Sure I have rams on the wall but I dont need to kill another but I dont need a tag to be out already stated thats not what its about for me I dont have to kill things to have a reason to go out being with and helping others in there quest is just fine and if they cant go I go alone just to be out there and look.

[bayou]

Do we support scientific wildlife management or not? What's more scientific, professional biologists using up to date population estimates, harvest records and all available detailed data, or mere observation by non-professionals? Observation may have it's place but observation by non-professional is much different than observations by professionals who are more qualified to interpret the observations made.

I really don't see any problem requiring more restrictive regulations but everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours Bayou, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree in this particular case. I just do not comprehend how LEH or a 1 in 5 year bag limit could produce "more" opportunity. Opportunity for whom? There are only about 5000 resident sheep hunters in BC and that number is declining, so why would we want to take the dedicated sheep hunters out of the game?

Try to explain a little better and give a couple examples, there is guys that shoot rams every year that dont really want them just doing it to sell capes if they had to wit ten years they may not do so, thus given others a chance. Same goes for a guy shooting a squeeker ram because he nos he can look for a bigger one next year, lots of different scenarios.
If it was leh with a life time or some type of yearly limit break it down to units if the bios feel its safe to have 5 rams outa say 4-25 then thats what goes.
To me it doesnt take dedicated sheep hunters outa the game for in my opinion a dedicated sheep hunter just wants to be out there he doesnt have to be the trigger man by from what Im seeing and reading they are a real minority.

[Avalanche123]

To me it doesnt take dedicated sheep hunters outa the game for in my opinion a dedicated sheep hunter just wants to be out there he doesnt have to be the trigger man by from what Im seeing and reading they are a real minority.

I disagree. I don't think too many people are terribly interested in being a tag along, unless you are guiding someone. (BUt ok, that's your opinion, fair enough) I can't see how this does anything to increase hunter numbers either. And from everything I have seen, sheep numbers are doing fine so I can't see the logic behind this.

I know a numerous hunters who don't even belong or follow this site so I hope you are not providing your opinion on the numbers from here.

[GoatGuy]

With all the threads on sheep age and legalitys etc was wondering what changes if any may benifit the sheep and hunter.
Some of mine would be if stones went on a one in 5 or 10 year system and bighorn (region 4) went on the same or LEH or even one in lifetime.
Just wondering what some other thoughts may be.

I suppose before we start looking for answers the first two questions would be:

What is the status of thinhorns and bighorns across the province?
What is the status of resident hunters/sheep hunters across the province?
What are the limiting factors for both of these subjects?
After both questions have been answered you would normally find out why.......:frown:......... but...........


I suppose you could ask how these tie into your ideas regarding turning sheep to LEH or a 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 rule:

4. How does LEH sheep make more sheep?
5. How does LEH sheep make more hunters?




Fill in the blanks and you should have a bit more to evaluate your solutions.

[budismyhorse]

With all the threads on sheep age and legalitys etc was wondering what changes if any may benifit the sheep and hunter.
Some of mine would be if stones went on a one in 5 or 10 year system and bighorn (region 4) went on the same or LEH or even one in lifetime.
Just wondering what some other thoughts may be.


These opinions are dangerous to the future of resident sheep hunting in BC, you will not find support for this in any way shape or form......thank god.

[Gateholio]

]
Try to explain a little better and give a couple examples, there is guys that shoot rams every year that dont really want them just doing it to sell capes if they had to wit ten years they may not do so, thus given others a chance. Same goes for a guy shooting a squeeker ram because he nos he can look for a bigger one next year, lots of different scenarios.

Is this a real problem? Are many rams being shot only for thier cape, and is it a threat to the sheep populations?




To me it doesnt take dedicated sheep hunters outa the game for in my opinion a dedicated sheep hunter just wants to be out there he doesnt have to be the trigger man by from what Im seeing and reading they are a real minority.

I don't think a dedicated hunter needs to kill something on every trip, but I bet most want to have a tag in thier pocket, so they can have the option, in case what they have been looking for all thier life comes by that day.:wink:

[6616]

there is guys that shoot rams every year that dont really want them just doing it to sell capes

I find it very hard to believe that this practice is widespread.

[1/2 slam]

Bayou,

You made and accusation that Gateshouse had taken 2 animals without tags. He asked you to explain this.

Thats a serious accusation. Are you going to explain the accusation or did I miss it?

[Gateholio]

Bayou,

You made and accusation that Gateshouse had taken 2 animals without tags. He asked you to explain this.

Thats a serious accusation. Are you going to explain the accusation or did I miss it?

Yeah, I'd like to hear about that, too?:smile:


EDIT:

I think I found it:


Bayou wrote I discussed this with a CO but only about LEH animals mainly grizzly since so many people say they are going as back up. I was told it is illegal and a chargable offence if you are shooting an animal with out a speicies tag.
i no people that have been charged and animal taking away for doing this on goats. So it looks like some on here dont really think the laws/regs pertain to them

In response to a thread where I mentioned that I had shot at a buddies grizzly as an insurance shot AFTER he had shot and nailed it through both shoulders, dropping it. Apparently it's illegal,although it may be a prudent thing to do with a grizzly bear.

Of course, I drink a lot of beer, and was probably just making stuff up when I made the post, anyway. ;)

Not the first time Bayou has made allegations here, now that I review some of his posts. :wink:

[Avalanche123]

[/quot
So back to my question....what gives?

and so back to the question I asked a few times bayou...what gives or perhaps, what's your agenda.

I was wondering when GH was going to get his answer. He had to do it himself. Maybe I'll have to resort to the same thing and I think the answer lies above me with referrals to previous posts you have made.

[bayou]

Yeah, I'd like to hear about that, too?:smile:


EDIT:

I think I found it:



In response to a thread where I mentioned that I had shot at a buddies grizzly as an insurance shot AFTER he had shot and nailed it through both shoulders, dropping it. Apparently it's illegal,although it may be a prudent thing to do with a grizzly bear.

Of course, I drink a lot of beer, and was probably just making stuff up when I made the post, anyway. ;)

Not the first time Bayou has made allegations here, now that I review some of his posts. :wink:
Not the only site you have gone on and said you have shot a grizzly but never had a tag either you also said you shot your first deer before you even knew you needed a tag or license( may not be your exact words)
not acusations just what you are saying and it is illegal to shoot animals with out a tag or license.

[bayou]

I suppose before we start looking for answers the first two questions would be:

What is the status of thinhorns and bighorns across the province?
What is the status of resident hunters/sheep hunters across the province?
What are the limiting factors for both of these subjects?After both questions have been answered you would normally find out why.......:frown:......... but...........


I suppose you could ask how these tie into your ideas regarding turning sheep to LEH or a 1 in 5 or 1 in 10 rule:

4. How does LEH sheep make more sheep?
5. How does LEH sheep make more hunters?




Fill in the blanks and you should have a bit more to evaluate your solutions.
Again Im not saying Im trying to make more hunters or more sheep just maybe more oppirtunity for others at legal rams.
You guys keep saying you need more hunters but looking at the numbers given if theres 5000 sheep hunters in the province and 20 rams are taken a year in region 4 thats 250 years before every one gets one.
I will try another way if hunters are from A to Z and hunters abcand d shoot rams every year xyand z may never get a chance but if abc and d are only allowed 1 in 5 that makes 16 rams that xyand z may have a chance at and who nos b might just like hunting sheep and being out there so he still goes out and helps y.
But like I said from what I see here just liking to be out there makes you quit the minority most feel the shooting is what its all about.

[bayou]

I find it very hard to believe that this practice is widespread.
Not saying its wide spread but if 2 of your rams outa the 20 a year are taken for this thats 10% and if 10% of the harvest was taken away and given to the outfitters it would probable have a bunch of you in a up roar.

[Deaddog]

It appears Bayou has not asked a question on his first post nor does he want to hear what the rest of us think as he originally posted, rather he just wants to argue and slam others, I for one will put this post on ignore as it is hunting season and I have better things to do.... like go hunt sheep!

[Gateholio]

Not the only site you have gone on and said you have shot a grizzly but never had a tag either you also said you shot your first deer before you even knew you needed a tag or license( may not be your exact words)
not acusations just what you are saying and it is illegal to shoot animals with out a tag or license.


You are reffering to something that may have happened when I was a kid with a bow, on a remote trip with some other teens, over 25 years ago. On these trips, some of the kids would kill grouse with rocks and sticks, too. Some of the kids would catch little trout on handlines with hooks and everything from berries to cheese chunks as bait. All these things were consumed with great enthusiasm by hungry kids, enjoying fresh meat/fish for the first time in a week or 2. Since none of us really grew up in a hunting family, we didn't really know that kids needed tags. I drank my first beer before I was 19, too. ;)

I don't mind discussing topics like these, since they make for interesting discussion, but to just say that someone "kills animals without tags" without providing a context for it is somewhat misleading.


It appears Bayou has not asked a question on his first post nor does he want to hear what the rest of us think as he originally posted, rather he just wants to argue and slam others

Bayous post history is pretty interesting in that regard. :)

[Sawbuck]

When a hunter from California can hunt Stone's sheep with an outfitter in BC while my son's wait at home for a LEH tag there will be no support for LEH in my house.
We need to get the resident/non-resident harvest allocation where it needs to be - say 90% resident and 10% non-resident. This is what most other North American jurisdictions are at unlike the generous BC model where half or more go to the non-resident. This would negate the need for LEH for some time.

[6616]

Again Im not saying Im trying to make more hunters or more sheep just maybe more oppirtunity for others at legal rams.
You guys keep saying you need more hunters but looking at the numbers given if theres 5000 sheep hunters in the province and 20 rams are taken a year in region 4 thats 250 years before every one gets one.
I will try another way if hunters are from A to Z and hunters abcand d shoot rams every year xyand z may never get a chance but if abc and d are only allowed 1 in 5 that makes 16 rams that xyand z may have a chance at and who nos b might just like hunting sheep and being out there so he still goes out and helps y.
But like I said from what I see here just liking to be out there makes you quit the minority most feel the shooting is what its all about.

Except for Kootenay Pass, Mount Assiniboine, and Phillips Creek, all sheep hunting in the EK is on GOS, so I don't follow how x,y and z never get a chance just because a,b, and c shot rams. Why can't they just go if they want to go, it's a GOS hunt and there's lots of rams, all they need to do is learn how to hunt them..! If a,b, and c shoot rams every year they must be the best hunters, put the most effort in, and are the most dedicated and they've earned their rams have they not? Do you really think taking them out of the game for 5 years will cause the less intense hunters to be successful. I don't, I think being successful is a factor of effort put forth, not competition from other hunters.

In order to shoot more rams and meet the allocation less restrictive regulations are required, not more restrictive. If you lengthened the sheep hunt for 1 week that would occur and x, y and z would be able to shoot those extra rams because a, b and c would be tagged out already.

It's simply not fair to punish hunters for being more successful or more dedicated when there's no conservation concern. You also cannot make less intense hunters more successful by creating more restrictions, that takes fewer restrictions. Furthermore, I don't believe for a second that anywhere's near 20% of the sheep hunters are just cape hunters, maybe 1 or 2 %, but not 20% or even 10%.

[6616]

if theres 5000 sheep hunters in the province and 20 rams are taken a year in region 4 thats 250 years before every one gets one.

That's not really the way it shakes down Bayou, there are 5000 sheep hunters in BC, but not all of them hunt sheep every year and most of them hunt Stone's sheep much more frequently. Many of them never hunt the Kootenay's. There are only 200 to 250 sheep hunters that hunt in the East Kootenay in any given year and they shoot somewhere between 15 and 25 rams. That's not such bad odds. If a person wants a ram bad enough, learns about sheep, and is willing to pound enough shoe leather, he should be able to get one.

[Gateholio]

Do you really think taking them out of the game for 5 years will cause the less intense hunters to be successful. I don't, I think being successful is a factor of effort put forth, not competition from other hunters.

.


Even in areas more heavily used by hunters (like many deer hunting areas) there will always be some guys that produce big deer, beause they hunt harder/longer/smarter than the others.

Remove those guys and the result is not that some other guy is going ot get a crack at those big deer. The result is that those bucks won't get shot at, and die of old age.8)

[BCrams]

Even in areas more heavily used by hunters (like many deer hunting areas) there will always be some guys that produce big deer, beause they hunt harder/longer/smarter than the others.



You must miss Dana ......... :lol:

But back on track here ...... Bayou - ideas are always worth merrit but the idea of having LEH or 1 in 5 ...... will not work like you envision.....but make things worse than they already are.

[Gateholio]

You must miss Dana ......... :lol:

:razz:

He'd surely agree with me, especially if I slipped a 99% figure in there somewhere:p

[GoatGuy]

Again Im not saying Im trying to make more hunters or more sheep just maybe more oppirtunity for others at legal rams.
You guys keep saying you need more hunters but looking at the numbers given if theres 5000 sheep hunters in the province and 20 rams are taken a year in region 4 thats 250 years before every one gets one.
I will try another way if hunters are from A to Z and hunters abcand d shoot rams every year xyand z may never get a chance but if abc and d are only allowed 1 in 5 that makes 16 rams that xyand z may have a chance at and who nos b might just like hunting sheep and being out there so he still goes out and helps y.
But like I said from what I see here just liking to be out there makes you quit the minority most feel the shooting is what its all about.

Your math is wrong. You're assuming all 5000 sheep hunters are hunting in region 4. Good god! :roll: That is absolutely absurd.

There;s a pile of sheep out there including in region 4. I've been keeping an eye on a couple that broke the nose three years ago. I've got a buddy that sees around a dozen legal rams every year in region 4 - just have to go out and actually hunt. There are several people who see legal rams and are looking for something different - the point is they HAVE THE CHOICE.

Under LEH you get your tag and you shoot your animal - most hunters are so worried about never getting drawn again they pile up the first thing they come across. There have been several high profile draws that are better than 100:1 where the hunter has shot the first ram they've seen - often they're 3, 4 or 5 yr olds. Now, that's their choice, and a trophy is in the eye of the beholder but it's likely they're shooting them because they're worried they won't find another one.

Hunters don't have the ability to become good sheep hunters under LEH either. How can you go sheep hunting if you never get drawn for them?

Up north there are plenty of sheep - person just has to look for them. There were more sheep shot last year in 7B than there has been in several years. Sheep in 6 are doing extremely well and residents don't hunt them except in a couple of spots.

I think you're looking for a handout.

Deaddog has the right idea

[6616]

Your math is wrong. You're assuming all 5000 sheep hunters are hunting in region 4. Good god! :roll: That is absolutely absurd.

I agree, if that were actually the case, we'd have been on LEH decades ago and the odds would be about 100:1 and very few of us would ever get to go hunting sheep. We'd be sitting at home dreaming about it while the non-residents pile up 15 rams per year.....WTF....!

[6616]

When a hunter from California can hunt Stone's sheep with an outfitter in BC while my son's wait at home for a LEH tag there will be no support for LEH in my house.
We need to get the resident/non-resident harvest allocation where it needs to be - say 90% resident and 10% non-resident. This is what most other North American jurisdictions are at unlike the generous BC model where half or more go to the non-resident. This would negate the need for LEH for some time.

Allocation of 90/10 would be great and that's where it really should be at, but right now if MOE could get it up to at least 70/30 it would be a significant improvement.

The outfitters target harvest of 15 rams may not be excessive, but the resident harvest is being depressed by overly resrtrictive regulations. We need a 1 week longer season or a few access restrictions removed. Residents should be shooting at least 35 rams per year, and if that's not sustainable then the AAH is too high and the non-resident quota needs to be lowered.

[bayou]

You are reffering to something that may have happened when I was a kid with a bow, on a remote trip with some other teens, over 25 years ago. On these trips, some of the kids would kill grouse with rocks and sticks, too. Some of the kids would catch little trout on handlines with hooks and everything from berries to cheese chunks as bait. All these things were consumed with great enthusiasm by hungry kids, enjoying fresh meat/fish for the first time in a week or 2. Since none of us really grew up in a hunting family, we didn't really know that kids needed tags. I drank my first beer before I was 19, too. ;)

I don't mind discussing topics like these, since they make for interesting discussion, but to just say that someone "kills animals without tags" without providing a context for it is somewhat misleading.



Bayous post history is pretty interesting in that regard. :)

Thats what kills me about you guys you never say what was said I beleive I said that you stated you had killed to animals with out tags which I think you have said is true so pretty cut and dry for me you nver learned from the first time and dont feel the laws/regs apply to you

[bayou]

It appears Bayou has not asked a question on his first post nor does he want to hear what the rest of us think as he originally posted, rather he just wants to argue and slam others, I for one will put this post on ignore as it is hunting season and I have better things to do.... like go hunt sheep!

Dont really see any arguing or slaming just trying to explain some views a bit better if any one is getting slammed i would say its me but thats just fine always get a laugh when I look on here.

[bayou]

I agree, if that were actually the case, we'd have been on LEH decades ago and the odds would be about 100:1 and very few of us would ever get to go hunting sheep. We'd be sitting at home dreaming about it while the non-residents pile up 15 rams per year.....WTF....!


I never assumed there was 5000 sheep hunters in region 4 I said 5000 in provience you guys keep changing things. I think its kinda sad so many arewilling to give up and sit at home if they cant kill something.

[6616]

I think its kinda sad so many arewilling to give up and sit at home if they cant kill something.

Don't get nasty now Bayou ole buddy.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=8564&cat=500&ppuser=3468

[bayou]

Allocation of 90/10 would be great and that's where it really should be at, but right now if MOE could get it up to at least 70/30 it would be a significant improvement.

The outfitters target harvest of 15 rams may not be excessive, but the resident harvest is being depressed by overly resrtrictive regulations. We need a 1 week longer season or a few access restrictions removed. Residents should be shooting at least 35 rams per year, and if that's not sustainable then the AAH is too high and the non-resident quota needs to be lowered.


I dont get this one why is the resident harvest being depressed by overly restrictive regulations do the outfitters not have to follow the same regulations.
You say theres 250 sheep hunters in region 4 and they take 20 rams and the outfitters take 15 how many hunters are they putting thru to get that.
If an outfitter has a qouta of 2 rams I cant see him taken 10 or 20 hunters to get those 2 some that I no have the couple booked for there permits with maybe a replacement if they dont tag out.
If it was the case of having multiply back ups would it help if the permit could only go with one tag.

[Gateholio]

Thats what kills me about you guys you never say what was said I beleive I said that you stated you had killed to animals with out tags which I think you have said is true so pretty cut and dry for me you nver learned from the first time and dont feel the laws/regs apply to you

What kills me about you is you throw out a blanket statement without clarifying context.

Again, your post is misleading. It may be "cut and dry" for you, since it's clear you have limited comprehension of the circumstances and how I feel about regulations and laws.

I feel the laws apply to me just as much as anyone else. However, in the first circumstance, none of us were aware of the laws ( I believe at that time a kid didn't need a fishing license, actually, so none of us thought about tags or anything other than having a great adventure and how fantastic feeding ourselves "off the land" was) Is a few kids in a remote area learning about survival skills and food harvesting such a horrible thing? Did those kids think the law didn't apply to them? Or did they just not even think about such things, since they had no previous knowledge of game laws, and hadn't even seen any other humans in a week or 2?

In any case, there was nothing to learn from the first instance, since it wasn't until many years later I started hunting again, as an adult, and I have always followed the rules, as far as I knew.

Until discussion on the internet regarding "insurance shots" on grizzly, nobody I have ever talked to thought it was wrong. Shooting your buddys LEH moose/elk/goat instead of him shooting it, most of us agree is a wrong thing to do. But nobody really expressed a problem with getting another round into a very clearly well hit grizzly, for added insurance that he wouldn't make cover, thereby ensuring a clean and safe kill.

Again, I don't have an issue with discussing things like this, but I do have an issue with you proclaiming that I believe "the laws don't apply to me."

Most (if not all) vehicle drivers have (safely) slightly exceeded the speed limit, and you probably have, too. Do these people think the laws don't apply to them? No, of course not. Most likely, they think that slightly exceeding the speed limit has not really violated the most basic premise of traffic laws- which is operating your vehicle in a safe manner, the laws still apply to them, but they haven't done anything truly wrong.

Not to further sidetrack this thread, but there are certainly some laws which are fairly ambiguous and rely on an interpretation of the case at hand, and some that are just downright stupid- The gun registry laws are a good example of this, but I am sure that you and everyone else on this site ran right out and registered as soon as the laws came into effect..:wink:

In closing, I will be much more careful if ever in a situation with a friend and a grizzly tag again. Although I still beleive it may be prudent in some circumstances to help out with another shot, I have since I learned that it is illegal.:-D

[jml11]

I dont get this one why is the resident harvest being depressed by overly restrictive regulations do the outfitters not have to follow the same regulations.
You say theres 250 sheep hunters in region 4 and they take 20 rams and the outfitters take 15 how many hunters are they putting thru to get that.
If an outfitter has a qouta of 2 rams I cant see him taken 10 or 20 hunters to get those 2 some that I no have the couple booked for there permits with maybe a replacement if they dont tag out.
If it was the case of having multiply back ups would it help if the permit could only go with one tag.


This comment proves you have no idea what you are talking about......

Outfitters are under the same seasonal and horn restrictions as residents; however they do have an advantage over most residents.

first of all guide outfitters know there territories (and the sheep) like the back of their hand, they have hunted them for years and sometimes decades. Therefore they don't have to waste time getting to know an area like most residents would have to. Residents that do take the time to learn an area and the sheep habits over several years can harvest a ram every year if they wanted to. Hence why others have stated they see legal rams every year, just choose not to hunt them.

Secondly, outfitters have planes, horses, money and time (all season to hunt one area/species/animal) which makes access into remote areas with higher densities of sheep easier. Most residents do not have any of this or even the connections to access these sources. Most of are limited to little knowledge of an area, time constraints and quite often access (motor vehicle restrictions, can't afford flights etc.) All this knowledge and resources allows outfitters to harvest at a higher success rate than the average whirlwind weekender resident.

[Huey]

Wow there is some great info flowing here.... I find it kind of awkward thanking you Bayou for brining this up, but I have learned so much especially from GG and 6616. Thanks guys for the encouraging reports on the future of sheep hunting, it's my dream someday to take all this info I'm slowly gathering and be able to find a ram or two.

[6616]

I dont get this one why is the resident harvest being depressed by overly restrictive regulations do the outfitters not have to follow the same regulations.
You say theres 250 sheep hunters in region 4 and they take 20 rams and the outfitters take 15 how many hunters are they putting thru to get that.
If an outfitter has a qouta of 2 rams I cant see him taken 10 or 20 hunters to get those 2 some that I no have the couple booked for there permits with maybe a replacement if they dont tag out.
If it was the case of having multiply back ups would it help if the permit could only go with one tag.

Outfitters hunt from well equipped, stocked and established backcountry camps. In many cases residents have to hike many miles just to get there. Take Corral Creek as a good example.
Outfitters consequently have a much higher success rate. Also with admin guidelines, and calculating quota with success rate factors, outfitters have a combined quota of about 45 or 50 to shoot their target harvest of 15 rams.

In 2012 when the allocation policy is fully implemented success rates for calculating quota will no longer be allowed, allocation will equal quota, but adimn guidelines will still apply.

For anyone that doesn't know what admin guidelines are they allow an outfitters to exceed his annual quota. He is allowed to harvest 30% of his 5 year quota in a single year, but not to exceed his five year quota. So if an outfitter has an annual quota of two, his five year quota during that 5 year allocation poeriod is 10, 30% of 10 is three so he can harvest up to three rams a year until his five year quota of 10 is used up. Once his five year quota for an allocation period is used up he can no longer hunt sheep until the next allocation period.

[bayou]

This comment proves you have no idea what you are talking about......

Outfitters are under the same seasonal and horn restrictions as residents; however they do have an advantage over most residents.

first of all guide outfitters know there territories (and the sheep) like the back of their hand, they have hunted them for years and sometimes decades. Therefore they don't have to waste time getting to know an area like most residents would have to. Residents that do take the time to learn an area and the sheep habits over several years can harvest a ram every year if they wanted to. Hence why others have stated they see legal rams every year, just choose not to hunt them.

Secondly, outfitters have planes, horses, money and time (all season to hunt one area/species/animal) which makes access into remote areas with higher densities of sheep easier. Most residents do not have any of this or even the connections to access these sources. Most of are limited to little knowledge of an area, time constraints and quite often access (motor vehicle restrictions, can't afford flights etc.) All this knowledge and resources allows outfitters to harvest at a higher success rate than the average whirlwind weekender resident.

I beg to differ there I did say region 4 planes arnt gona help you to much there, not alot of the areas that cant hit a road by a day of walking. Vehicle restrictions also apply to outfitters you would want them lifted so they can have more access as well. Just not to many remote areas, guess you havent seen some of the going ons that happen the foot races the shooting over people the fights on the mountain, most of this usally occurs the first week or 2 usally opening day so theres some free info for ya(hunt later)

[bayou]

Outfitters hunt from well equipped, stocked and established backcountry camps. In many cases residents have to hike many miles just to get there. Take Corral Creek as a good example.
Outfitters consequently have a much higher success rate. Also with admin guidelines, and calculating quota with success rate factors, outfitters have a combined quota of about 45 or 50 to shoot their target harvest of 15 rams.

In 2012 when the allocation policy is fully implemented success rates for calculating quota will no longer be allowed, allocation will equal quota, but adimn guidelines will still apply.

For anyone that doesn't know what admin guidelines are they allow an outfitters to exceed his annual quota. He is allowed to harvest 30% of his 5 year quota in a single year, but not to exceed his five year quota. So if an outfitter has an annual quota of two, his five year quota during that 5 year allocation poeriod is 10, 30% of 10 is three so he can harvest up to three rams a year until his five year quota of 10 is used up. Once his five year quota for an allocation period is used up he can no longer hunt sheep until the next allocation period.

If we are talking the same corral creek dont think it has had alot of success since the hawaiin and chupa rams you dont get to hold a ram like the hawaiins in your hands very often. Its a walk but nothing terrible plus rams use to be taken right of the front face and first shut on the right.

Nice ram wall by the way is that a BC certificate and PY plague or local awards. Whats the story on the broken horn, fall, shot or excisting break.

Do you feel maken the permit go to the one tag holder would have any effect on the outfitters or just lower there total quota.

[jml11]

I beg to differ there I did say region 4 planes arnt gona help you to much there, not alot of the areas that cant hit a road by a day of walking. Vehicle restrictions also apply to outfitters you would want them lifted so they can have more access as well. Just not to many remote areas, guess you havent seen some of the going ons that happen the foot races the shooting over people the fights on the mountain, most of this usally occurs the first week or 2 usally opening day so theres some free info for ya(hunt later)

as you have done many times is this thread, you are putting words in peoples mouths. Did I say motor vehicle restrictions should be lifted? I don't think so!! Motor vehicle restrictions keep the average resident hunter out and unless you have horses or other means of back country access (i.e. planes) your likelihood of success is not as good as those who do have access to these sources i.e. outfitters. That is why outiftters have a higher success rate! A lot resident hunters are only able to afford weekend trips form the truck and many are only casual sheep hunters which unfortunatley reduces the success rate by residents. If statistics were detailed enough to show the success rate of the serious, hardcore sheep hunters (which guide outfitters are) their success rate would be much higher than the overall. Keep in mind a lot of the serious sheep hunters are also looking for that one special ram, so even though they may spend 2-3 weeks hunting sheep they may not get one by choice.

I don't know Region 4 at all and sure maybe planes won't help much, I was speaking on guide outfitters as a whole. Google Earth shows me that much of Region 4 is still quite remote with no roads. I'm pretty sure that horses are heavily used though! I don't know very many residents who have the resources to hunt with horses.

Yes I have seen and heard of some of the gong shows that occur in some sheep areas, but this is not different than for any other species on opening day. There are always places where people try and beat out the other hunters using unethical methods. Because so few sheep are legally harvested anyway, how would reducing the allocation to one in a lifetime hunt prevent this?? You are only going to have a couple less hunters in any given year, the overall numbers and pressure will still be high. Places where it is fight to harvest a ram on opening day have easy access and most of these areas are already on LEH. Maybe there are a few other places that may warrant this as well, but it would be very few. Like I said I am not familiar with Region 4 sheep and I can only think of one area outside of that region that may be better managed under an LEH system as I understand the management objectives are not being met and quite a few illegal rams are shot every year. Certainately I would hate to see this happen and I do need to do more research before I openly state that this area must go LEH as I the information I have is only hearsay at this point.

Have you ever hunted sheep??

[Avalanche123]

Personally, I've given up on this thread.....I was suspicious from the beginning.

[BCrams]

Regarding access issues for resident hunters: we need to promote bringing back more packers (i.e., horse packers, jet boat packers, plane operators) in order to create a competitive environment and to increase the number of resident hunters who wish to get into the back country.

When the GO's became licenced packers, they got what they wished for, and that was being able to limit residents from accessing the better hunting areas. Just because they became licenced to pack in hunters didn't mean they were going to take residents in like the regular packers used to do.

[6616]

If we are talking the same corral creek dont think it has had alot of success since the hawaiin and chupa rams you dont get to hold a ram like the hawaiins in your hands very often. Its a walk but nothing terrible plus rams use to be taken right of the front face and first shut on the right.

Nice ram wall by the way is that a BC certificate and PY plague or local awards. Whats the story on the broken horn, fall, shot or excisting break.

Do you feel maken the permit go to the one tag holder would have any effect on the outfitters or just lower there total quota.

Point is at Corral Creek the outfitter has a road accessible camp close to where the sheep are and in the past has been able to get a permit to drive to it through the VHAC while the residents have to hike in -- huge advantage for the outfitter IMO. Most residents aren't really looking for the dream ram like the Hawiian or Chupa, that's a long shot, they just want a nice representative mature ram. I think the majority of non-resident sheep hunters are probably the same.

I don't understand what you mean about the permit going to one tag holder?? An outfitter holds the quota, the clients buy the tag, and there is no restriction on how many clients with tags an outfitter can book, he's only restricted by his quota which limits the number of animals he can harvest. An outfitter is free to book a few more clients then they have quota if they want to account for success rate which is approx 31 to 33% for non-residents, and if too many clients harvest, the outfitter is allowed to exceed the quota via the admin guideline as long as he does not exceed his five-year quota during that five-year allocation period. As you can see some business management is required to fully utilize quota but not to exceed it.

Some outfitters have 100% success rates, some have poor success rates, on average the 18 outfitters that have sheep are awarded a total quota of 48 (just looked it up) to harvest 15 rams, so therefore their average success rate must be about 31 to 33 %.

(BC cert. for the Bighorn, local for the Stones)

[BCrams]

I also heard a rumour...... (not sure if true or not) that the late Bob Fontana's wife when she was the wildlife honcho, granted a key to the outfitter (Fontana's and others) to open the gates at the road closure areas so they could get their camps and their non-resident clients in while the resident hunters still had to pack in from the gate.

Unfair advantage to the outfitter? Conflict of interest? I've heard some pretty juicy info :eek:

What of the retired biologists who worked for the ministry of environment and are now bio's acting on behalf of the guide outfitters? Makes one wonder who they were working for during their tenure as MOE bio's. The public hunters of BC or the GO's and their non-resident clients?

[bayou]

Point is at Corral Creek the outfitter has a road accessible camp close to where the sheep are and in the past has been able to get a permit to drive to it through the VHAC while the residents have to hike in -- huge advantage for the outfitter IMO. Most residents aren't really looking for the dream ram like the Hawiian or Chupa, that's a long shot, they just want a nice representative mature ram. I think the majority of non-resident sheep hunters are probably the same.


Not sure if you mean the outfitter for the assiniboine that goes up the cross past corral creek to access or the outfitter that has corral creek in his area. Either way I no they have both driven in and one I believe with out permission and I feel that is BS and should not be allowed if open forone should be open for all.
Not trying to be a smart ass but were do you get the stats saying what size of ram people want to shoot I think GG said he has been watching 3 over the nose for 3 years and his buddy lets a dozen legal rams go a year.
I do agree with GG when he says a trophy is in the eye of the beholder, some would be happy with any ram with horn and some want book. To me it doesnt really matter so long it was taken legally and is appreciated.


I don't understand what you mean about the permit going to one tag holder?? An outfitter holds the quota, the clients buy the tag, and there is no restriction on how many clients with tags an outfitter can book, he's only restricted by his quota which limits the number of animals he can harvest. An outfitter is free to book a few more clients then they have quota if they want to account for success rate which is approx 31 to 33% for non-residents, and if too many clients harvest, the outfitter is allowed to exceed the quota via the admin guideline as long as he does not exceed his five-year quota during that five-year allocation period. As you can see some business management is required to fully utilize quota but not to exceed it.

Some outfitters have 100% success rates, some have poor success rates, on average the 18 outfitters that have sheep are awarded a total quota of 48 (just looked it up) to harvest 15 rams, so therefore their average success rate must be about 31 to 33 %.

(BC cert. for the Bighorn, local for the Stones)


When I say the permit goes to one tag holder I mean when joe non-resident comes to hunt with outfitter bob who has 4 permits(quota) one goes to joe and its his for that year(season) if he doesnt geta ram bob doesnt get to bring another hunter in his place. Dont quote me on that but I think thats how some sheep permits work in alberta.


Not sure why my comments to your first ? came up in your questin section Im not good at computer stuff

[bayou]

When I say the permit goes to one tag holder I mean when joe non-resident comes to hunt with outfitter bob who has 4 permits(quota) one goes to joe and its his for that year(season) if he doesnt geta ram bob doesnt get to bring another hunter in his place. Dont quote me on that but I think thats how some sheep permits work in alberta.


Not sure why my comments to your first ? came up in your questin section Im not good at computer stuff


as you have done many times is this thread, you are putting words in peoples mouths. Did I say motor vehicle restrictions should be lifted? I don't think so!! Motor vehicle restrictions keep the average resident hunter out and unless you have horses or other means of back country access (i.e. planes) your likelihood of success is not as good as those who do have access to these sources i.e. outfitters. That is why outiftters have a higher success rate! A lot resident hunters are only able to afford weekend trips form the truck and many are only casual sheep hunters which unfortunatley reduces the success rate by residents. If statistics were detailed enough to show the success rate of the serious, hardcore sheep hunters (which guide outfitters are) their success rate would be much higher than the overall. Keep in mind a lot of the serious sheep hunters are also looking for that one special ram, so even though they may spend 2-3 weeks hunting sheep they may not get one by choice.

I don't know Region 4 at all and sure maybe planes won't help much, I was speaking on guide outfitters as a whole. Google Earth shows me that much of Region 4 is still quite remote with no roads. I'm pretty sure that horses are heavily used though! I don't know very many residents who have the resources to hunt with horses.

Yes I have seen and heard of some of the gong shows that occur in some sheep areas, but this is not different than for any other species on opening day. There are always places where people try and beat out the other hunters using unethical methods. Because so few sheep are legally harvested anyway, how would reducing the allocation to one in a lifetime hunt prevent this?? You are only going to have a couple less hunters in any given year, the overall numbers and pressure will still be high. Places where it is fight to harvest a ram on opening day have easy access and most of these areas are already on LEH. Maybe there are a few other places that may warrant this as well, but it would be very few. Like I said I am not familiar with Region 4 sheep and I can only think of one area outside of that region that may be better managed under an LEH system as I understand the management objectives are not being met and quite a few illegal rams are shot every year. Certainately I would hate to see this happen and I do need to do more research before I openly state that this area must go LEH as I the information I have is only hearsay at this point.

Have you ever hunted sheep??
Wasnt gona reply to you since you always have to start off so rude but like I said before when your a minority in your views you have to beable to laugh things off. If you would maybe calm down and read slower you would see your questin was already answered, which is yes 30 plus years.

[bayou]

6616
Was trying to figure out some numbers today and will admit Im not great at it and I can only go by the numbers you have but if region 4 went on leh and you say theres only 250 sheep hunters there and you want a harvest of 35 isnt that like only 1 in 7 odds which to me are pretty good compared to the other bighorn lehs.

[6616]

Dont quote me on that but I think thats how some sheep permits work in alberta.

I believe you're right, I think the actual tags are assigned to the outfitters to sell in Alberta, rather then a quota like in BC.

[bayou]

I also heard a rumour...... (not sure if true or not) that the late Bob Fontana's wife when she was the wildlife honcho, granted a key to the outfitter (Fontana's and others) to open the gates at the road closure areas so they could get their camps and their non-resident clients in while the resident hunters still had to pack in from the gate.

Unfair advantage to the outfitter? Conflict of interest? I've heard some pretty juicy info :eek:

What of the retired biologists who worked for the ministry of environment and are now bio's acting on behalf of the guide outfitters? Makes one wonder who they were working for during their tenure as MOE bio's. The public hunters of BC or the GO's and their non-resident clients?

Good points in both last 2 threads if the info is true its not right just like the cross river closure and access given to the outfitter, someone told me it was gona be lifted but not sure. But I have hiked or biked up various closures only to have a truck load of resident hunters come up, when confronted they always say they didnt no, pretty hard to miss a 3foot by 5 foot white sign.

[6616]

6616
Was trying to figure out some numbers today and will admit Im not great at it and I can only go by the numbers you have but if region 4 went on leh and you say theres only 250 sheep hunters there and you want a harvest of 35 isnt that like only 1 in 7 odds which to me are pretty good compared to the other bighorn lehs.

It would take 35 rams shot by residents to make actual harvests match the allocation percentages, plus the 15 non-resident kills that's 50 total, I don't know if the WLB would consider that sustainable in the EK.

At the risk of pissing Tom, Dick and Harry off, the problem with LEH is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry begins to apply playing the LEH lottery game, and only half of them even use the authorzations when they get drawn, so this ends up taking the opportunity away from the few serious sheep hunters who really want to go sheep hunting. If it's left on GOS anyone who wants can go hunting, including Tom, Dick and Harry, and the hunt is sustainable due to the full curl horn regulations, that seems better to me.

I'll bet if the current GOS went LEH many more then 250 hunters would apply. The point really is if there's not a conservation concern why restrict ourselves. As far as creating more opportunity, what can be better than a GOS for that? A LEH would only serve one purpose and that's to allow rams to get older, thus creating a trophy management stratgey similar to West Kootenay elk. Do we really want to go that route? Why not involve as many people as possible and encourage hunting?

[jml11]

Wasnt gona reply to you since you always have to start off so rude but like I said before when your a minority in your views you have to beable to laugh things off. If you would maybe calm down and read slower you would see your questin was already answered, which is yes 30 plus years.

You adamantly accusing others of poaching isn't rude?? Sometimes you have to be blunt with people like yourself who just don't get what everybody is trying to say. You need to read my posts again, I am saying the same thing as everybody else. You are the minority in this thread you have admitted it yourself!


Dont really see any arguing or slaming just trying to explain some views a bit better if any one is getting slammed i would say its me but thats just fine always get a laugh when I look on here.


If you have hunted sheep for 30 years you should know the answers to these questions already and you should definitely know why guide outfitters have a higher success rate. You even asking that question in the first place indicated that you have little knowledge and experience on the subject which discredits the rest of your earlier statements in my opinion. Keep coming up with the b.s. though I enjoy, and do get a laugh mind you, at how your comments are over ruled and disproven everytime. You've annoyed a lot of people with this thread, many who have tried to reason with you and provide good information but you just have lame comments back to them and it keeps going around and around. You seem to have an alterior motive with this thread and it's not sheep management or even understanding it. I'm with avalanche and deaddog, I've got better ways to waste my time. The season opens tomorrow, go hunting or something!

[bayou]

You adamantly accusing others of poaching isn't rude?? Sometimes you have to be blunt with people like yourself who just don't get what everybody is trying to say. You need to read my posts again, I am saying the same thing as everybody else. You are the minority in this thread you have admitted it yourself!




If you have hunted sheep for 30 years you should know the answers to these questions already and you should definitely know why guide outfitters have a higher success rate. You even asking that question in the first place indicated that you have little knowledge and experience on the subject which discredits the rest of your earlier statements in my opinion. Keep coming up with the b.s. though I enjoy, and do get a laugh mind you, at how your comments are over ruled and disproven everytime. You've annoyed a lot of people with this thread, many who have tried to reason with you and provide good information but you just have lame comments back to them and it keeps going around and around. You seem to have an alterior motive with this thread and it's not sheep management or even understanding it. I'm with avalanche and deaddog, I've got better ways to waste my time. The season opens tomorrow, go hunting or something!

Your intitled to your opinion just like every one else and its you clicking the button to look Im guessing with 1500 views a few others have as well you have stated you no nothing about region 4 so really dont no what Im talking about.
As for your first comment I just stated what was said by the other guy which he explained just because he says he didnt no it was still done. Looks like hes over it and hes a big boy(probable to big to be messing with) Im sure he can take care of himself, so maybe let it go.

[bayou]

It would take 35 rams shot by residents to make actual harvests match the allocation percentages, plus the 15 non-resident kills that's 50 total, I don't know if the WLB would consider that sustainable in the EK.

At the risk of pissing Tom, Dick and Harry off, the problem with LEH is that every Tom, Dick, and Harry begins to apply playing the LEH lottery game, and only half of them even use the authorzations when they get drawn, so this ends up taking the opportunity away from the few serious sheep hunters who really want to go sheep hunting. If it's left on GOS anyone who wants can go hunting, including Tom, Dick and Harry, and the hunt is sustainable due to the full curl horn regulations, that seems better to me.

I'll bet if the current GOS went LEH many more then 250 hunters would apply. The point really is if there's not a conservation concern why restrict ourselves. As far as creating more opportunity, what can be better than a GOS for that? A LEH would only serve one purpose and that's to allow rams to get older, thus creating a trophy management stratgey similar to West Kootenay elk. Do we really want to go that route? Why not involve as many people as possible and encourage hunting?

Im not sure what camp your in thats why I have put you and GG and FD together for I think your all after the same thing which is just #s which is fine but why is it bad to have some things or areas for trophys as well.
I like the west kootenay elk and hope it stays that way.
I see what your saying but it goes against what has been said by others, they say leh is killing hunting but you say sheep goes on leh more will apply which I agree but thats sorta saying what you want.
If it was on leh you can possible control your harvest agenda better.
What happens if it stays on GOS and theres a banner year and way more rams are shot then what they consider sustanable could it cause a closure for everyone.
I dont think we will ever agree maybe have to sit at a table one day and try and explain thoughts out on a black board or something. GG can come to.
Getting late have to get up early to get in line for the race.

[6616]

Im not sure what camp your in thats why I have put you and GG and FD together for I think your all after the same thing which is just #s which is fine but why is it bad to have some things or areas for trophys as well.
I like the west kootenay elk and hope it stays that way.
I see what your saying but it goes against what has been said by others, they say leh is killing hunting but you say sheep goes on leh more will apply which I agree but thats sorta saying what you want.
If it was on leh you can possible control your harvest agenda better.
What happens if it stays on GOS and theres a banner year and way more rams are shot then what they consider sustanable could it cause a closure for everyone.

Considering where hunting is going the last 20 years I'm definitely in the recruitment/numbers camp, but having said that I don't think sheep really could be considered a recruitment species.

Generally speaking LEH "is" killing hunting, yes more people could apply but, no that's not what we're after, being able to apply is not hunting. Most people want more then just being able to apply, they want to go hunting and they can do that now under GOS. The success rate for resident sheep hunters in the EK is less then 10% so they're not hurting anything.

There has been banner years already, in the late 1980's and early 1990's residents were killing 50 to 60 rams per year, there were less sheep at that time as well, and it didn't seem to cause any permanent damage.

Within conservation limits, managing for maximum sustainable harvest vrs managing for trophy potential is a social decision that needs to be supported by the majority of sheep hunters before it should be considered. Most of the posts on this thread are obviously against managing for trophy potential with LEH. I think most sheep hunters across BC will feel the same way, the current harvest by full curl horn regulation is not excessive and results in pretty fair trophy potential already.

[willy442]

Just my 2 cents worth, but all the issue's in this thread could be resolved very easily.

If Sheep hunting was 100% percent guided only, a number of things could be resolved, for example:
The G/O's would not have any problem with taking residents into the prime area's and access restrictions in general would not be required. This would allow BC Rams and SSS to get into some of the country they wish to hunt, Fisher Dude could probably harvest a Ram off of his quad as roads could be opened up.
Residents would come closer to harvesting thier allocation due to the assistance of proffessionals. This would keep allowable harvest numbers higher allowing for more opportunity, hunter recruitment could be increased due to the higher success rates and the fact that outfitted hunts totally eliminate MOUNTAIN HOUSE as table fare.
The requirement for scientific data could be eliminated as the herds would be managed by those that are out with the Sheep. This would give 6616 more free time as he would no longer have to worry about how we should manage our herds. GG could possibly spend less time cutting and pasting and dedicate more time to working, allowing him to buy a decent airplane and maybe become a bush pilot. Bayou would be happy because the cost would keep Sheep hunting to once in a life time. Kozak Griz would be able to actually follow what is happening and stop picking numbers from thin air. We could keep the special permits, and hunters that win them would actually kill once in a life time trophy's. Gate House would have no choice but to abide by rules and regulations.

Again just my 2 cents worth.:lol:

[6616]

Just my 2 cents worth, but all the issue's in this thread could be resolved very easily.

If Sheep hunting was 100% percent guided only, a number of things could be resolved, for example:
The G/O's would not have any problem with taking residents into the prime area's and access restrictions in general would not be required. This would allow BC Rams and SSS to get into some of the country they wish to hunt, Fisher Dude could probably harvest a Ram off of his quad as roads could be opened up.
Residents would come closer to harvesting thier allocation due to the assistance of proffessionals. This would keep allowable harvest numbers higher allowing for more opportunity, hunter recruitment could be increased due to the higher success rates and the fact that outfitted hunts totally eliminate MOUNTAIN HOUSE as table fare.
The requirement for scientific data could be eliminated as the herds would be managed by those that are out with the Sheep. This would give 6616 more free time as he would no longer have to worry about how we should manage our herds. GG could possibly spend less time cutting and pasting and dedicate more time to working, allowing him to buy a decent airplane and maybe become a bush pilot. Bayou would be happy because the cost would keep Sheep hunting to once in a life time. Kozak Griz would be able to actually follow what is happening and stop picking numbers from thin air. We could keep the special permits, and hunters that win them would actually kill once in a life time trophy's. Gate House would have no choice but to abide by rules and regulations.

Again just my 2 cents worth.:lol:


Good one Willie...!

[Gateholio]

Just my 2 cents worth, but all the issue's in this thread could be resolved very easily.

If Sheep hunting was 100% percent guided only, a number of things could be resolved, for example:
The G/O's would not have any problem with taking residents into the prime area's and access restrictions in general would not be required. This would allow BC Rams and SSS to get into some of the country they wish to hunt, Fisher Dude could probably harvest a Ram off of his quad as roads could be opened up.
Residents would come closer to harvesting thier allocation due to the assistance of proffessionals. This would keep allowable harvest numbers higher allowing for more opportunity, hunter recruitment could be increased due to the higher success rates and the fact that outfitted hunts totally eliminate MOUNTAIN HOUSE as table fare.
The requirement for scientific data could be eliminated as the herds would be managed by those that are out with the Sheep. This would give 6616 more free time as he would no longer have to worry about how we should manage our herds. GG could possibly spend less time cutting and pasting and dedicate more time to working, allowing him to buy a decent airplane and maybe become a bush pilot. Bayou would be happy because the cost would keep Sheep hunting to once in a life time. Kozak Griz would be able to actually follow what is happening and stop picking numbers from thin air. We could keep the special permits, and hunters that win them would actually kill once in a life time trophy's. Gate House would have no choice but to abide by rules and regulations.

Again just my 2 cents worth.

:mrgreen::o:biggrin::grin:

Hilarious...

[bighornbob]

Bayou

As others have said a LEH would not increase the size of the heads. Guys that usually get the LEH's are so worried of not getting a ram because they have been applying for years and know they may not get a tag again so they shoot the first legal one they see. Case in point, a guy I know got the kamloops lake draw a shot a 3 year old 3/4 curl. A great trophy in his mind but no where a head what you want to see.

Another case in point. This picture was taken 3 days ago along the Fraser River.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Picture_029.jpg

There are some nice rams in there and I was chasing the biggest as he was close to full curl, but could never get a real good look to make the call. He is heavily broomed on one side and lamb tipped on the other. In the three days I watched this band of rams 2 different rams had broken off at least one of their lamb tips and the head butting and not taking crap from the others was definately increasing so I doubt the lamb tip will last much longer. The big ram was only 7 years old from what I could tell maybe eight. So he has a couple of years at least. The other good rams were in the 5-6 years range.

Well this area is on LEH for 3/4 or better and I will bet money that half of the good rams will be killed in the next few weeks as the tag holders will see 3/4 curl and shoot regardless of age. If these were able to get a few years older then you would have smoker rams, but you wont see it with odds of 30:1 or whatever it is there. A guy gets the tag knows that he probably wont get another and shoots the first ram.

Looking at the pic again may have me heading out there again this weekend:razz:

BHB

[bayou]

Just my 2 cents worth, but all the issue's in this thread could be resolved very easily.

If Sheep hunting was 100% percent guided only, a number of things could be resolved, for example:
The G/O's would not have any problem with taking residents into the prime area's and access restrictions in general would not be required. This would allow BC Rams and SSS to get into some of the country they wish to hunt, Fisher Dude could probably harvest a Ram off of his quad as roads could be opened up.
Residents would come closer to harvesting thier allocation due to the assistance of proffessionals. This would keep allowable harvest numbers higher allowing for more opportunity, hunter recruitment could be increased due to the higher success rates and the fact that outfitted hunts totally eliminate MOUNTAIN HOUSE as table fare.
The requirement for scientific data could be eliminated as the herds would be managed by those that are out with the Sheep. This would give 6616 more free time as he would no longer have to worry about how we should manage our herds. GG could possibly spend less time cutting and pasting and dedicate more time to working, allowing him to buy a decent airplane and maybe become a bush pilot. Bayou would be happy because the cost would keep Sheep hunting to once in a life time. Kozak Griz would be able to actually follow what is happening and stop picking numbers from thin air. We could keep the special permits, and hunters that win them would actually kill once in a life time trophy's. Gate House would have no choice but to abide by rules and regulations.

Again just my 2 cents worth.:lol:

Yes good onya to make everyone happy

[bayou]

Considering where hunting is going the last 20 years I'm definitely in the recruitment/numbers camp, but having said that I don't think sheep really could be considered a recruitment species.

Generally speaking LEH "is" killing hunting, yes more people could apply but, no that's not what we're after, being able to apply is not hunting. Most people want more then just being able to apply, they want to go hunting and they can do that now under GOS. The success rate for resident sheep hunters in the EK is less then 10% so they're not hurting anything.

There has been banner years already, in the late 1980's and early 1990's residents were killing 50 to 60 rams per year, there were less sheep at that time as well, and it didn't seem to cause any permanent damage.

Within conservation limits, managing for maximum sustainable harvest vrs managing for trophy potential is a social decision that needs to be supported by the majority of sheep hunters before it should be considered. Most of the posts on this thread are obviously against managing for trophy potential with LEH. I think most sheep hunters across BC will feel the same way, the current harvest by full curl horn regulation is not excessive and results in pretty fair trophy potential already.


Ya like you said earlier we will have to agree to disagree.
Im not against recruitment either but dont like some of the proposed methods or motives.
I have also yet to find a person that has quit hunting because of leh, no lots that like it (self included) but would like to see some changes to it.

[bayou]

Bayou

As others have said a LEH would not increase the size of the heads. Guys that usually get the LEH's are so worried of not getting a ram because they have been applying for years and know they may not get a tag again so they shoot the first legal one they see. Case in point, a guy I know got the kamloops lake draw a shot a 3 year old 3/4 curl. A great trophy in his mind but no where a head what you want to see.

Another case in point. This picture was taken 3 days ago along the Fraser River.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/Picture_029.jpg

There are some nice rams in there and I was chasing the biggest as he was close to full curl, but could never get a real good look to make the call. He is heavily broomed on one side and lamb tipped on the other. In the three days I watched this band of rams 2 different rams had broken off at least one of their lamb tips and the head butting and not taking crap from the others was definately increasing so I doubt the lamb tip will last much longer. The big ram was only 7 years old from what I could tell maybe eight. So he has a couple of years at least. The other good rams were in the 5-6 years range.

Well this area is on LEH for 3/4 or better and I will bet money that half of the good rams will be killed in the next few weeks as the tag holders will see 3/4 curl and shoot regardless of age. If these were able to get a few years older then you would have smoker rams, but you wont see it with odds of 30:1 or whatever it is there. A guy gets the tag knows that he probably wont get another and shoots the first ram.

Looking at the pic again may have me heading out there again this weekend:razz:

BHB

Again I kinda disagree if the guy is in a panick or worried and shoots the first legal one he sees then theres a chance for the one your watching to get bigger. For me anyway the trophy is in the eye of the beholder if the animal is legal, taken legally, appreciated and respected it works for me.
I no guys that have had leh tags and have seen legal animals and were not what they wanted so let them walk and take nothing and are fine with that.
Thats why I feel there has to be changes to some of the leh draws or regs to some species such as sheep to prevent someone from shooting a 3 year old every year and give some one else a chance. Would like to see the 1 in 5 or 10 on goats and west kootenay elk as well and higher leh costs or a upfront fee to stop the people that put in just because then dont go shoot whatever but as said most dont want animals managed for trophy they only want more people and oppertunity thus maken it even harder for your chance at your rams survival before you get him.

Good picture by the way, good luck hope you get a chance at him.

[bayou]

On a side not had a good 2 days out no legal rams seen only down side to the hike was going by 2 of the outfitters spike camps(one may be used by residents as well) and seeing all the mess plastic spread around, southern comfort bottles throwen in the bush, plastic milk jugs in the creek etc etc also wonder why so many people pack sardines on high country hunts and then just throw the can away, have found them through out B.C. the yukon and NWT.

[6616]

Ya like you said earlier we will have to agree to disagree.
Im not against recruitment either but dont like some of the proposed methods or motives.
I have also yet to find a person that has quit hunting because of leh, no lots that like it (self included) but would like to see some changes to it.

Strategies for recruitment certainly have to be balanced with conservation requirements, we can't just throw eveything wide open. As far as motives, I think the motive to increase hunter numbers cannot be questioned, but there may be persons promoting certain strategies in the name of recruitment that have certain hidden personal motives or agendas. It seems every proposal today uses recruitment as part of the justification, when in reality some of them really have questionable value as recruitment tools.

Sheep and goats are not species with huge potential for recruitment anyway. Deer, elk and moose are recruitment species since the motivation for new recruits to enter hunting is usually to put meat in the freezer.

White Tailed Deer especially probably represent the most significant opportunity for hunter recruitment. Considering the current record high population of WTD in many regions of BC I believe we could initiate an "any deer" season across the south and in the Peace similar to Alberta and Saskatchewan without any conservation risk. That would probably be the best recruitment strategy ever.

[bayou]

Strategies for recruitment certainly have to be balanced with conservation requirements, we can't just throw eveything wide open. As far as motives, I think the motive to increase hunter numbers cannot be questioned, but there may be persons promoting certain strategies in the name of recruitment that have certain hidden personal motives or agendas. It seems every proposal today uses recruitment as part of the justification, when in reality some of them really have questionable value as recruitment tools.

Sheep and goats are not species with huge potential for recruitment anyway. Deer, elk and moose are recruitment species since the motivation for new recruits to enter hunting is usually to put meat in the freezer.

White Tailed Deer especially probably represent the most significant opportunity for hunter recruitment. Considering the current record high population of WTD in many regions of BC I believe we could initiate an "any deer" season across the south and in the Peace similar to Alberta and Saskatchewan without any conservation risk. That would probably be the best recruitment strategy ever.

Ya I agree the whitetail seem to be doing very well in various regions.