Age This Stone

[Wild Images]

Here is the ram that Rand wanted me to post for you guys to age Co got 11 1/2 yrs
Have fun, I will let Rand answer any questions
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/69062.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10366&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2692)
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/22692.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10368&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=2692)

[Stone Sheep Steve]

10 1/2+ and maybe one more depending on what's under the hailine. Once they get that old there "may" be another one hidden down low.

Old enough for me:smile:.

SSS

[Gateholio]

My guess was 10.5 as well...:?

[Kitimat Killer]

im with you guys 10.5 for me too but im no expert

[bighornbob]

I get 9 1/2 and I am the expert:tongue:

BHB

[whitetailsheds]

8.5 or 9.5

[tomahawk]

9 ...................

[hunter1947]

My guess is 11 years old.

[willy442]

9.5 years and by the new growth markings at the base, no chance of a hidden growth ring.

[Avalanche123]

I came up with 10.5 too. Now I can only imagine trying to come up with that with a spotting scope under less than ideal conditions. Now one can see why "quality" optics are essential.

That sure looks good up against that wood wall!

[Buckwheat]

i got 10.5 on this big boy!!!

[BCrams]

I am sticking with 8.5 as it is from the photo's boys. (there is no way he is a 11.5 year old ram).

This time, I highlighted the false annuli in BLUE. Now with the last blue highlighted ... the markings are almost identical going backwards but the line is less pronounced on the underside of the horn ..... clearly false annuli (which can be tricky on many sheep).

The RED highlights the true horn growth rings.

I too, also doubt there is more under the hair at that point.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/69062.jpg

[MichaelB]

I'm guessing 10 1/2 but it depends on what side I look at, which eye I use, and moon phase.

[MichaelB]

I guess I type too slow..don't I feel silly. I'm changing my answer from 7-12 to be safe.

[Sitkaspruce]

I get 9.5 as I think one of BCRam's FA is an real Annuli. Between 2.5 and 3.5, although it would be tough to tell unless it was in my hand. With the other side I get 8.5 or 9.5 if I count that annili as well. Pretty tough to tell.

But really, who cares, he is legal, so.......bang, on the wall he goes.

For me, life is to short to be worried about age and such, if he is full curl, down he will go, I do not care about age, score or anything else that guys might look at before shooting. All the power the the guys who do, thats just not for me. Besides, you might never get another chance, as life might through you a curve that will not allow you a second chance.

By the way, very nice ram!!! Congrats to the shooter!!!

Cheers

SS

[BCrams]

Here is the other side to match ....... and the 'lines' you see on the other side thinking they are growth rings (the false annuli) are not as pronounced on this side......

My verdict is still sitting at 8.5 yrs until I am shown otherwise.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/22692.jpg

[BCrams]

I get 9.5 as I think one of BCRam's FA is an real Annuli. Between 3.5 and 4.5.

SS

:tongue: Look on the other horn between 3.5 and 4.5 :smile: No growth ring at all. Same as between 2.5 and 3.5.

It is indeed a super ram where the 'who cares' about the age! He's more than full curl.

I think the issue arising from the whole thing is how inefficient many CI's and CO's are at being able to properly age rams.

[Avalanche123]

I have two questions:
1) Why the jump in age from 3.5-4? Why not 4.5? How do you know this?
2) What about all those other lines between 7.5 and 8.5?

Ok I guess that was three questions...no wonder I can't count annuli!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here is the other side to match ....... and the 'lines' you see on the other side thinking they are growth rings (the false annuli) are not as pronounced on this side......

My verdict is still sitting at 8.5 yrs until I am shown otherwise.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/22692.jpg

So are you saying the last annuli (the 8 1/2) to the base is not another year. It looks like where you're drawn it is where the dark new growth begins. Aren't you giving it another year?? So 9 1/2??
He seems to carry his growth well the last few years(from 5 on)

SSS???

[Buckwheat]

i can tell what are the proper rings i just must have counted 2 to many!!!!
ray told me a bit of how to tell what is real and what is fake!!!!

[BCrams]

So are you the last annuli ( the 8 1/2) to the base is not another year. It looks like where you're drawn it is where the dark new growth is. Aren't you giving it another year?? So 9 1/2??
He seems to carry his growth well the last few years( from 5 on)

SSS???

It looks that way the way I numbered it ... better way to look at it is to remove the .5 and the 8.5 should read '8' ... then add the .5 to the end when it was shot.

Very good growth and consistent as it ages..... in particular the growth of its last summer.

Now when you're looking at the false annuli (FA) ........ for example .... lets start at Year 4 from the first picture I put up ..... if we were to count the FA as "rings" ... the growth pattern(s) would look pretty darned funny for each summer ....... SO start at the number four and we get a pattern of:

Short -> Wide -> Wide -> Short -> Short -> Wide -> Wide -Short

That just doesn't happen. Rings typically are progressive in their reduction of growth...as clearly demonstrated with the 'red' lines.

Thats it for Sheep Aging 101 today folks.

[rand]

Well I came up with 8 1/2.But the COs counted and recounted and came up with 11 1/2 years.He had no teeth on the bottom right,and one tooth on the top left.On the botton left his teeth were all fused together with a hard glaze.His teeth makes him old.As for the true age, this one is a tough one.

[BCrams]

Well I came up with 8 1/2.But the COs counted and recounted and came up with 11 1/2 years.He had no teeth on the bottom right,and one tooth on the top left.On the botton left his teeth were all fused together with a hard glaze.His teeth makes him old.As for the true age, this one is a tough one.

Teeth are sometimes and sometimes not an indicator of age.

Rams break teeth all the time if they don't keep their chin down when bashing horns.

Conversely, you get a ram which feeds its whole life in a lush burn area can have pretty decent teeth ...

Whereas - you get a ram like where you shot yours where the terrain is rocky, its primary food source means snipping and grinding away at short vegetation in the rocks and on the rocks .... teeth can and will wear out faster ....

You can tell the CO he's out to lunch if he says its a 11.5 year old ram. Just because he's in the uniform or a person is with the government, or a person appointed by the government ....doesn't mean they know how to age sheep properly.

Rand - your guess was on the mark!!

[HD95]

The CO your're all talking about is actually a CI contractor.He has very limited experience with sheep.I'm with BCRams on this one,although its really a moot point,as its a good ram and most all of us would have squeezed the trigger too.

[BCrams]

The CO your're all talking about is actually a CI contractor.He has very limited experience with sheep.I'm with BCRams on this one,although its really a moot point,as its a good ram and most all of us would have squeezed the trigger too.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone taking such a ram. He's a beaut!!

[6 K]

9 and over........shoot him, shoot him now!

[daycort]

8.5 maybe 9.5 if there is another ring in the hair line.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't care what the rest of you guys think - I believe BCRams is the BEST photoshop-line-drawer-label-maker on HBC! :tongue:

I'm no expert but I'm thinkin' 8.5 or 9.5.

[BCrams]

8.5 maybe 9.5 if there is another ring in the hair line.

There won't be another ring in the hair line. :tongue:

[BCrams]

I don't care what the rest of you guys think - I believe BCRams is the BEST photoshop-line-drawer-label-maker on HBC! :tongue:

I'm no expert but I'm thinkin' 8.5 or 9.5.

Ha ....... I have to be good at something :redface:

[srupp]

Im getting sheep horn education 101 201 qand advanced..very well done gang..

steven

[mark4]

I came up with 9.5- Have they ever raised a wild sheep in captivity and monitered exactly how old it really was ?? As in it was born on june 15th 2002 and now it has x amount of annuli at x amount of years. If they have can someone here please post that study for us to see ??? I like concrete evidence and I'm sure others would appreciate that too.

[BCrams]

For those who guessed 9.5 you're doing pretty good. Although the false annuli will throw you off. For those who want, you can highlight where you are getting the extra year for me to see ....

Mark4 - there are numerous instances of wild sheep in captivity which have demonstrated the age of sheep. Earliest I know of are Desert bighorns on a ranch in 1964 which was published in a paper.

*** BUT given Stone's sheep - young rams have been radio collared and their exact ages are known (i.e., 2-4 year old rams captured --- easy to age) and when the animal dies, whether by predation, accident, sickness, hunter harvest, old age etc ...... the radio signals tell us when the ram is dead and the carcass is investigated and collar retrieved...... and the horns are usually recovered and can be used to exactly tell the rings vs known age.

What you will find, is no different than what I am showing you and others on here.

I believe I mentioned something along those lines here in a pm to you ;)

[Lil Buck]

9.5 kill him here is a bullet

[BCrams]

9.5 kill him here is a bullet


Are some of you guys calling that false annuli between 2.5 and 3.5 as a growth ring? If so.....its a false annuli. A quick look at the other horn view shows nothing in between which supports the FA. In addition the growth rate between the 2.5 to the FA to the 3.5 is another indicator.

As for under the hair, the growth is as such as willy also says, very doubtful of another growth ring at that point.


lil buck - a bullet....I would hope so - he's clearly more than full curl !!

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Looks like I'll have to raise my buffer to 2 yrs.......or let my partner do the aging:smile:.

Mark4- The couple that used to do th CI's down in OK Falls worked at the Penticton Game farm for many years. They had a Stone ram that they raised completely in captivity so they knew his exact age. His horns looked quite different(very smooth) as his winters were pretty damn easy compared to wild sheep.
They used that ram in TV commercials as the "Dodge Ram"....of course this is going back a quite a few years.


SSS

[mark4]

I guess I just want to see the pictures at each birthday for myself, If anyone can get these pictures please do. The proof is in the pudding- post the aging pics.

[Nimrod]

Sorry not trying to high jack the thread.
I posted this one before, this one's tricky, he had a injury when he was young which can be seen in the close rings. you might think it's a false ring but it's not ( not the 2 that almost touch )
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/Even-tide/P1040053.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/Even-tide/P1040055.jpg

[srupp]

hmmmm 8 1/2 for sure..and Id gues he was a year older @ 9.5 years

hmmm w/i 72 hours I get to try this on LIVE stone sheep...how did ya get this guy to lay so still for you to take such wonderful close photos from both sides..

Steven

[whitetailsheds]

9.5, it's the 1.5 and 2.5 that are close together......

[whitetailsheds]

I'd do the arrows and numbers like Greg, but it's a pain in the ass getting the felt/ ink off the monitor's screen.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I'd do the arrows and numbers like Greg, but it's a pain in the ass getting the felt/ ink off the monitor's screen.

Getting the marks off your computer screen is easy but getting them off the Swarro is a huge PITA:roll:.

SSS

[BCrams]

Using both methods this time :cool:

10.5 yrs

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/P1040055-1.jpg

[daycort]

Sorry not trying to high jack the thread.
I posted this one before, this one's tricky, he had a injury when he was young which can be seen in the close rings. you might think it's a false ring but it's not ( not the 2 that almost touch )
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/Even-tide/P1040053.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d193/Even-tide/P1040055.jpg

Would I be wrong saying this ram is 10.5?? its what I come up with.

[Lil Buck]

this one I say 8.5 dont know why but that is what I get.no fake crap just mu guttttttt

[Nimrod]

the rings close to the skull are to close together to see in the picture, he was aged at inspection at 12.5

BC ram nailed the false rings, his brisket was a mass of scar tissue, must have taken the wind out of his sails for a couple season. I think he took a fall and got injured in his 3rd year normally this year produces a lot of horn growth in healthy sheep.

[Kody94]

Chiming in late...was camping for a few days.

I got the same as BCRams for both sheep (9.5/10.5). Excellent job on the photos BTW, BCRams! (edited version especially!)

Both rams are FANTASTIC! Congrats to the hunters!

Cheers,
4Ster

[NO-LEH-4-ME]

9.5 by my guess. Looks like you'll have time to count now that he is in the wall.

[Jigger]

I get 8-10 it's a picture, you can play with photo shop all day and say what ever you want, go and hold it then have this talk, you must be really bored to photo shop this pic...................................:oops:

[325 wsm]

9.5 years, but it's actually easier to tell by looking at the rings in between the horns

[ryanb]

He's at least 8 and over the nose and a real nice ram...who cares if he's 9, 10, or 11?

The problem I would have ageing this one as a beginner is that there is no obvious 3rd year ring, so I just counted from the first very obvious ring and got 8.5...

[Lil Buck]

9 years 8months 16 days ....lol full curl kill it if you want it..

Bang dead.I would let him go ..

lb:razz:

[GoatGuy]

I'll go with BCRams on this one - course I ain't no expert.

[bruin]

I'd call him 10 with the possibility of a double on yr 5 but that would take a close inspection

[6616]

So are you saying the last annuli (the 8 1/2) to the base is not another year. It looks like where you're drawn it is where the dark new growth begins. Aren't you giving it another year?? So 9 1/2??
He seems to carry his growth well the last few years(from 5 on)

SSS???

I thought the same as SSS and get 9 1/2.

[Ridge Runner I]

It looks that way the way I numbered it ... better way to look at it is to remove the .5 and the 8.5 should read '8' ... then add the .5 to the end when it was shot.

Very good growth and consistent as it ages..... in particular the growth of its last summer.

Now when you're looking at the false annuli (FA) ........ for example .... lets start at Year 4 from the first picture I put up ..... if we were to count the FA as "rings" ... the growth pattern(s) would look pretty darned funny for each summer ....... SO start at the number four and we get a pattern of:

Short -> Wide -> Wide -> Short -> Short -> Wide -> Wide -Short

That just doesn't happen. Rings typically are progressive in their reduction of growth...as clearly demonstrated with the 'red' lines.

Thats it for Sheep Aging 101 today folks.



Interesting discussion...... I look at the first ram’s age and get 9 plus (using the true annuli from Bcrams enhanced diagram.... ) but I don’t understand your method of subtracting the first six month of growth and then adding the 6 months to the 8.5 (or 8 as you call it later) annuli to the time of death? And adding 6 month to the last annuli ( do you feel the annuli is formed in March?)I’m confused how you can get an absolute age when you discard a segment of the horn? I think there is some confusion surrounding annuli and how and when they are formed.
A sheep is born in the spring; let us use the first week of June as a parturition date. At this point the horns are very small and are in the early stages of any development and may not show anything but small lumps on the head. Sheep horns grow continually throughout the sheep’s life, and for Rocky Mountain Bighorn in the southern portion of this province the horns of a lamb in a healthy population during it’s first winter will be apprx. 10 cm long ( I’m not sure why you are subtracting this growth when the sheep was obviously alive and contributing to it’s total age). The first annuli formed which you have marked .5 and is a somewhat weak annuli and is due to several factors: weaning off, winter conditions, and available habitat during the winter months. These combined factors equal a slowing in growth (putting available energy into survival and maintenance, not into horn growth) and cause the small pseudo annuli to be formed. It is important to remember that this annuli was formed during the winter (Nov-April) which gives us a minimum of 6 months of age. Horn growth is slow during the winter months and picks up in the spring with green up, and the horn continues to grow but maximum horn growth is during the spring, summer and fall.
The second annuli formed is a little more pronounced due to the ram maturing, having his testis become more developed and drop (producing testosterone and maturing). This annuli is formed during the on set of the rut which for a ram means increased testosterone, increased activity, and decreased foraging. Remember this annuli is formed during late November. From now on the annual annuli will be formed during the rut in late November, so in between segments annuli equals one year starting in late November and ending in late November. As the ram continues to mature more testosterone is released and that is why the third or fourth annuli is usually the first predominate annuli observed, which is due to reaching sexual maturity( I agree with Bcrams on this call to skip the false one, it’s not defined enough). It is the testosterone level which influence the annuli development the most, and this is why trying to age ewes (females) using annuli is an exercise in futility. Ewes do get annuli forming like rams but are inconsistent and due to other factors, winter weather conditions and habitat availability, age of first reproduction, reproduction, maternal and lactating costs and these are all variable factors and can change annually. So ageing ewe’s using this technique is not recommended.
So back to the age of the ram, we have .5 (six months) then 1.5 and so on to 8.5, which I totally agree with but from the 8.5 till time of death would be a minimum of 9 months if the ram was harvested during August and the annuli was formed during late November. So that would make this individual 9 years and 3 months minium years of age.
The one thing I do find very interesting is the range of ages folks have thrown out here....... I really wonder if it is a good management strategy to have when a lot of people have difficulty ageing at less than1 meter regardless of up to several hundred meter and a moving head?

I also think some of the confusion is if you look on the Ministry Compulsory Inspection forms; they call the first six month annuli (one year of age) and then only count to the last annuli present, therefore getting a more accurate age of a harvested ram during the legal season.

Just some thoughts, RR

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Wasn't this the thread that BCRams addmitted to making a boo-boo?? (making a hasty post at work?)

He started a new thread addmitting and correcting his mistake....IIRC

SSS

[Ridge Runner I]

Sorry I must have missed that......but there is some food for thought.

and yes I'm still working, no time for the wicked!!!!!


Cheers, RR

[ElkMasterC]

Big deal.

Age THIS Stone:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/keithrichards-1.jpg

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Sorry I must have missed that......but there is some food for thought.

and yes I'm still working, no time for the wicked!!!!!


Cheers, RR

Yep.
This is the one. Sorry for bringing this up again....Pard:tongue:
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=25428

SSS

[Caveman]

Big deal.

Age THIS Stone:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/keithrichards-1.jpg


Can't be done!! :eek:

[boxhitch]

they call the first six month annuli (one year of age) and then only count to the last annuli present, therefore getting a more accurate age of a harvested ram during the legal season.

Concise and easy. Like horseshoes, its close enough.

[boxhitch]

Keith has been around since Dec '43, and probably started his stone at a young age.
So I guess 45.

Big deal.

Age THIS Stone:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj313/Heliox18/keithrichards-1.jpg