Can you age sheep better than Dr. Geist?

[kgriz]

After reading the statements of some lately about aging sheep I thought I would tell this story...
A friend of mine took a sheep in for CI when it was still done by gov't biologists and there was a disagreement on it being over 8. Skip ahead through all of the beaurocratic BS and my friend got in contact with Dr. V. Geist, probably one of the if not top authorities on Wild Sheep in the world. My buddy sent him huge crystal-clear blow-ups of the horns clearly showing the annuli and Dr. Geist wrote back that as far as he could tell the ram was 11 1/2. Well my buddy thought this was great and presented these findings to the local MOE in question. They then took this under consideration and sent the actual horns to Dr. G and obviously talked to him at length which would have been easy as it turns out as he either had worked directly for the Gov't or contracted to them in the past. Well, he changed his mind and then concluded that the ram was 6 1/2. There seems to be some scandalous elements to this story but that is not the point......The point is that one of the worlds' foremost experts on Wild Sheep who has seen and studied 10 times more rams than any seasoned hunter or guide of 30+ years blah blah blah could not properly age a ram from huge clear photos let alone through a spotting scope on a windy mountain.......so you think you can? Hah
Plus it doesn't matter if you could, the law states:


"8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth
annuli as determined by the Regional Manager
or designate."
and then the synopsis further adds:
"Do not use yearly horn growth
annuli to determine the age of a ram in the
field, because "false" annuli may be present."

This means that the legal age is based upon this persons' professional opinion based on horn annuli, not necessarily the true age.
My friends sheep got confiscated and as a side note, the same people that he was arguing with stated that in "this and that" area sheep do not get over the nose by 6 1/2 years old......
The beautiful irony is that 2 years later he brought in a sheep from that area 2 inches over the nose.....they aged him at 6 1/2 years old...
Hah
I think that that age clause should be removed from the regs and they should be over the nose ( for thinhorns ) only. The only reason I can see that its there is to cater to the guides who have a working relationship with the CI'ers and the Gov't and don't get bamboozled like my buddy because of it. If a sheep can get old and broken off like its often stated of why the age thing is there, good for them...let them lie on the mountain.

[bigwhiteys]

I think that that age clause should be removed from the regs and they should be over the nose ( for thinhorns ) only. The only reason I can see that its there is to cater to the guides who have a working relationship with the CI'ers and the Gov't and don't get bamboozled like my buddy because of it. If a sheep can get old and broken off like its often stated of why the age thing is there, good for them...let them lie on the mountain.

You probably need to read some more of Dr. Geists books. He seems to go over this in detail.

Carl

[kgriz]

Whatever, I'm giving my opinion at the end about changing the rule according to my ideas not quoting my knowlege on population dynamics of sheep. The fact is that one of the most noteworthy scientists could not age this sheep without having the horns in his hands in this instance. Talk about missing the point.

[bigwhiteys]

Talk about missing the point.

No - There is obviously more to that story then what you've shared... And then you go on to say yourself two years later your buddy went back in and shot another 6.5 year old ram...? He was on a roll!

Carl

[kgriz]

Well over the nose and actually he obviously didn't need to age it at all. You can be as against some of my opinions as you want but the fact is that you can only guess at which rings will be determined to be "false" and hope that somebody will agree with you when its CI'd. Sure, you can build up a postion of trust with this person or that professionally if you're a guide or somewhat personally if you are not, but then you could be stopped on route to that CI person by a CO and it could possibly go crappy from there. It's unfortunate that the true story that I had to put this across involved some rather grey circumstances but the fact stands that originally my friend got a fax or letter from Dr. G saying that he felt the ram was 11 1/2 and then for whatever reason changed his mind by 5 years later! I'm just stating beware.....it is a matter of opinion not fact when aging sheep.

[Deadshot]

Sure, you can build up a postion of trust with this person or that professionally if you're a guide or somewhat personally if you are not, but then you could be stopped on route to that CI person by a CO and it could possibly go crappy from there.
This possibility is one of the reasons inspections should be done by CO's. Takes away the 'conflict of interest' thing.

[willy442]

Well over the nose and actually he obviously didn't need to age it at all. You can be as against some of my opinions as you want but the fact is that you can only guess at which rings will be determined to be "false" and hope that somebody will agree with you when its CI'd. Sure, you can build up a postion of trust with this person or that professionally if you're a guide or somewhat personally if you are not, but then you could be stopped on route to that CI person by a CO and it could possibly go crappy from there. It's unfortunate that the true story that I had to put this across involved some rather grey circumstances but the fact stands that originally my friend got a fax or letter from Dr. G saying that he felt the ram was 11 1/2 and then for whatever reason changed his mind by 5 years later! I'm just stating beware.....it is a matter of opinion not fact when aging sheep.

I personally know Dr G and have taken his aging seminar in Reno Nevada at the FNAWS show along with other seminars and photograpy shows. I would like to see your friends letter as I don,t believe DR G would have put himself out on a limb via a photo, especially if there was a legal question on the Ram. So I call bullshit plain and simple. Also if you personnaly are incapable of determining false annuli from the real thing, you should not be questioning those that can.

Ignorance is bliss so I'll just ignore your trying to stir the pot bye.

[willy442]

Whatever, I'm giving my opinion at the end about changing the rule according to my ideas not quoting my knowlege on population dynamics of sheep. The fact is that one of the most noteworthy scientists could not age this sheep without having the horns in his hands in this instance. Talk about missing the point.

Now you want to change a rule that you have no idea why it exists! Are you aware that some sheep will never break the bridge of the nose? Are you aware that in some areas depending on feed and how brittle the actual horns are older Rams can be heavily broomed and never break the bridge of the nose? In both cases these are usually older rams and the type that should be the target of G/O's and residents alike, rather than the young breeding stock, such as 6 and 7 year olds. I suggest that until you at least have a vague idea of what you are talking about, you don't confuse the issue of aging and the regulations any more than it is to many.

The fine print in your very first post pretty much tells the tale of your knowledge. Before you make accusations that the age thing is for guides you should really do some research. Guide are the ones that are punished by the harvesting of young Rams. If shot by residents or them selves for your info.

[Deaddog]

Five years is an extremely large number to mistake, perhaps the photo's were not as clear as your friend made out,, in any event not harvesting broomed off rams is a conservation issue, as pointed out before a number of broomed off rams will never make full curl in the legal sense, however they would be the older non productive rams, by not harvesting these animals the pressure would be moved solely to the full curl rams, many of those are 6 to 7 year old rams which are the prime breeding stock, thus taking this harvesting tool away from all user groups would negatively impact the population. As seen by the number of pics on this site, the broomed off rams are being taken by residents and outfitters alike, I believe that the responsibility goes to the shooter regarding their compentancy in aging sheep. DD

[kgriz]

Well said deaddog, I already claimed that I was not bothering to investigate the population dynamics of it all.....my idea for making the age requirement disapear was to help get rid of a rule that is very subjective. Its funny that the regs give a quick little picture of how to count and then say don't do it because its a little unreliable. Did they think that hunters that shoot one over the nose just wanted the method of aging provided to satisfy their curiousity? Of course people would use it. The story I provided is controversial and that's the point....I was pointing out that people have their own agendas on these things; its all subjective, thats the problem.

[srupp]

shheeeesh Im getting scared of actually seeing a shooter ram..end up being 1 1/2 years old...

Steven

[Avalanche123]

You'll be fine. Just don't post the pic on here! LOL
Just kidding! :)

[willy442]

shheeeesh Im getting scared of actually seeing a shooter ram..end up being 1 1/2 years old...

Steven

Hmmm.. A BIG BAD BEAR GUIDE scared of Mary's little Lamb:confused::smile: