Sheep Ed 101

[Deadshot]

Starting this thread in response to the closing of 'First Sheep!!'
Alot of good reading in that thread. Leave it up for viewing by all means. I don't want to see what transpired be removed from the spotlight though. Now is the chance for certain organizations (WSSBC & BCWF) to step up & push a drive for membership, with a promise to put an emphasis on education. No doubt the Ministry will scrutinize their end of things.:roll:
Sheep hunting is not done on a whim by anyone. I think that the money spent on gear & transportation, the hours spent training, nights at the gun range, research,etc, etc, etc, all show a huge passion for this particular hunt. But to have it break down because the only ID education are a few regs & a couple of pics on a hunting forum is weak at best.
I don't know what membership costs for the WSSBC, but it must pale in comparison to the loot spent to go on the average sheep hunt.
Anyone that's been up on the mountains with those sheep know they deserve it!

[NaStY]

Not to sound condescending, but what would a membership do for me? I am a member of alot of different organizations and haven't heard anything from any of them.

Again just a question??????

[Deadshot]

I would'nt know, I'm not a member(yet).
I said it was a good time for them to step up & offer something in the form of education. Who knows maybe it can be done without the membership attachment.

[bigwhiteys]

I am a member of the WSSBC and FNAWS. They are both organizations that act as a voice for the sheep and sheep hunters not only in BC but around the world.

It's cheap to be a member of either and if you join FNAWS you'll also get the Wild Sheep magazine quarterly and it's packed with sheep hunting stories, pics, auctions, all kinds of stuff. Through FNAWS you can also have access to some pretty cheap draws for once-in-a-life time donated hunts.... (A 12 year old boy won one of these hunts back in the 90's through FNAWS that my Grandfather had donated. He came up and harvested a great 38" Stones ram as an example)

WSSBC also sends out a newsletter every few month with local information, stories, pics, and conservation effort highlights.

If you attend the annual conventions for FNAWS they put on all kinds of aging and field care seminars from experienced sheep hunters/guides etc...

Both organizations do an excellent job following up with members and keeping you informed. If you hunt sheep my feeling is why not?

Carl

[Avalanche123]

Both organizations do an excellent job following up with members and keeping you informed. If you hunt sheep my feeling is why not?

Carl

Hmmm good question! Maybe I should.....

[bighornbob]

As a director of the Wild Sheep Society I encourage you to join up. Its a great organization. Money raised by the sheep society is spent here on sheep projects. At one of my first Wild Sheep banquets I was impressed that the members present got to vote on what projects the sheep society put their money toward. That was 10 banquets ago.

Money is primaryily raised through the annual fundraiser and a quad raffle. Like I said money is used on sheep projects like transplanting sheep to (check out this http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=19086&highlight=transplant) radios collars, funding for studies, burns etc etc.

If you love sheep hunting one should really be a member ($35 a year). If you want more information just check out our website at www.wildsheepsociety.org (http://www.wildsheepsociety.org) (just noticed its down).

BHB

[trapntrav]

the website has been down for a few days

[bigwhiteys]

the website has been down for a few days

Somebody needs to renew the domain name.

Carl

[NaStY]

Somebody needs to renew the domain name.

Carl


Sorry guys but thats just too funny...........

Again no personal attack. Its just funny.......

[Deaddog]

We are working on getting the domain name issue corrected, should be tomorrow if things go well, however for those that hunt sheep I suggest you join one of the sheep organizations as it is those that belong to the various groups that are proactively looking after the sheep, ensuring the habitat is taken care of, numbers are monitored, burns are done, as well as actively working on dealing with the issue of domestic and wild sheep mixing, so in answer to the "whats in it for me" question, the above issues are whats in it for you, as well the fundraisers are a great place to meet people with like interests. Always easy to sit back and let others step up and help out......hopefully all sheep hunters will take an interest in helping wild sheep in all areas by joining one of the conservation groups. DD

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If I would not have joined the WSSBC back in 2000 I would not have realized the serious implications of domestic and wild sheep interaction.

Just this past Monday I witnessed and reported domestic sheep within 1km of where recently transplanted californians are known to frequent....so hopefully some "education" of the landowner will occurr...before something disasterous happens.

Since joining I have learned lots of interesting stuff from the seminars and magazines/newsletters and have met lots of like-minded individuals.

Oh ya...forgot to mention....it's good karma. As soon as I committed to a lifetime memebership I shot my first ram.
That guarrentee comes with every life membership:wink:...and some secret sheep hunting locations:-P.

SSS

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's some horn curl education for you newer guys.

Would you shoot this ram based on the horn view that you have in this pic???

For all you that know the history and age of this ram.....please refrain from posting and let the newer guys have a chance.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Stone_2005_110.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7820&ppuser=1509)

SSS

[Deadshot]

I'll bite. A toughie for sure. Passenger side shows the first annuli so I'll guess 9.5. Even looking at it over & over again, & thinking 8.5-10.5 there's no doubt I'm pulling the trigger.
Nice ram SSS!

[BCRiverBoater]

Tough one based only on showing annuli. He is broomed off and is a hog...I would pull the trigger. He only looks like 8.5 to me. Going by rgs one could say only 7.5 without being caped.

[NaStY]

That would be too hard for me to be sure and would pass. The mass is huge but the angle is hard to be sure about full curl. Is there a pic of the other side?

Glad to hear the site will be up soon and will take the time to join when it is. I could use the exercise now that i quit smoking :biggrin:

[Dirty]

I would like to shoot him but some other guy already bagged the ram I was stalking too. *******. All kidding aside I would not shoot until I was on the appropriate elevation to determine that the tip breaks the bridge.

[bigwhiteys]

How about these ones... Only one of these is an underage (6.5 - full curl) ram. Can you spot which one...?


http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram1.jpg

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram2.jpg


http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram4.jpg

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram3.jpg


Carl

[NaStY]

The last pic appears to be the 6.5yr old....

[BCRiverBoater]

The first picture is close but I would say the last picture from those angles.

[Krico]

Gotta be the last one.

[Lil Buck]

Last pic

But what do I know

[Kitimat Killer]

hey guys here is a good pic of my stone to tell age should be easy for you guys on here but let the rookies try
kk
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/n615940112_962941_4544.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10209&size=big&cat=500)

[willy442]

Probably cleared inspection at 8.5 years but looks more like 7.5 and between 37 and 38 inches in length.

[NaStY]

Full curl by about a mm

[Kitimat Killer]

Probably cleared inspection at 8.5 years but looks more like 7.5 and between 37 and 38 inches in length.

close thats for sure he was 7 yrs and broke by an inch on that side the pic dose not show good the full curl i took this pic for age and was 36 inch curl on both sides

[bigwhiteys]

The last pic appears to be the 6.5yr old....




The first picture is close but I would say the last picture from those angles.



Gotta be the last one.




Last pic But what do I know


Yep... It's the last ram. The first ram was actually 11.5

Anyone want to venture a guess as to length/age/score? B&C Eligibility on any of these rams?

Carl

[branthunter]

Here's some horn curl education for you newer guys.

Would you shoot this ram based on the horn view that you have in this pic???

For all you that know the history and age of this ram.....please refrain from posting and let the newer guys have a chance.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Stone_2005_110.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7820&ppuser=1509)

SSS
I guess the best answer for me lies in what I actually did. On a trip to the Gathto about 10 yrs. ago I spent a very chilly, anxiety filled hour about 125 yds. from one that looked very much like yours. He was similarly broomed (more rounded and less fractured at the end) but a bit blacker of mane and chest. I had worked my way into a position that was at exactly the same level on the slope as he was. He was bedded down on a small scoop in the slope and he had with him a younger ram standing on the slope just above him that clearly had a year or three to go, but the bigger guy was hard to tell. I was a neophyte sheep hunter (and remain so, never having had---or should I say created---the opportunity again) so all of these judgements were based on zero experience. This was the first time I'd ever even seen a sheep except for highway sheep in the parks. He knew I was there and was looking right at me so I couldn't get a side view on him . I would hold the binocs on him continuously until my arms got so tired I had to let them down and twice, yup, wouldn't you know it, he turned sideways just as I did so. I of course would quick up again with the glasses but each time the movement caused him to look my way again and the opportunity was lost. Perseverance paid off however and eventually I got the glasses on him with a perfect sideways alignment. I tried hard, but I just couldn't catch a glimpse of horn tip over the nose---short by about 1/4". Despite being convinced that he was legal by age (to the extent my inexperience would allow) on the basis of how close he was to breaking the bridge of the nose and the brooming and how big and black he was I made the decision to let him go and eventually he got up, seemed to stretch a bit, and walked away over the little ridge crest behind him, the younger one in tow. Both the guys I was with took rams that trip but I have always considered the time I spent with that fellow and the view of him walking away over the mountainside to be the greatest, most valued trophy of my hunting life. An added bonus of that trip is that the two fellows I was spike camped with, and who I had met for the 1st time 2 days before when they were good enough to give me a ride from the FSJ airport to the Prophet R. strip, have become lifelong pals and hunting buddies.

[yama49]

great post- great info
sss i wouldnt shoot yours because i cant age it properly
i GUESSED kk at 7.5
nice pics bw , some amazing rams

jason

[NaStY]

hey guys here is a good pic of my stone to tell age should be easy for you guys on here but let the rookies try
kk
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/n615940112_962941_4544.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10209&size=big&cat=500)

I would say 7 1/2 yrs

[trapntrav]

More practice for you!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/07_stone_sheep6.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10215&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=9394&sl=t)




8.5 yrs old 37.5" long 14 1/4 bases 164B+C

[NaStY]

More practice for you!

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/07_stone_sheep6.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=10215&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=9394&sl=t)




8.5 yrs old 37.5" long 14 1/4 bases 164B+C

Very nice ram you got there......

[bigwhiteys]

Nice Ram Trav - It's pretty easy to get 8.5 out of him!

Carl

[trapntrav]

there was nothing easy about it !!! :wink:

[livingston]

Some awesome looking sheep I can't wait to get into the mountains!!

Carl, that second sheep in your pictures is really heavy horned he must have had large bases. I would guess the ram in the third pic has the longest curl?

[Avalanche123]

This is great practise and I really enjoy this thread however for myself it builds a false confidence. I will only shoot a ram that is based on where is horns are as opposed to his age. I do not have the confidence in myself to do this.

As I would be pulling back my bow to take the shot, the question of confidence would affect my concentration and I would risk blowing the shot.

Again, great thread!

[trapntrav]

At this point of my sheep hunting career I will only shoot based on the horn above the nose as well.

[Krico]

Counting rings on a still shot showing a perfect view in good light of a downed ram really is no big deal-although many experienced sheep guys still will come up with different numbers.
Counting rings on a live ram, through glass, with the excitement of a hunt in full effect, is not so easy...
I agree with Avalanche that it can build false confidence.
The only way I would shoot on age is if the ram was broomed heavy, just at the nose and I had a minimum 1, preferably 2 extra rings for "backup."

[Sitkaspruce]

Here is my first one I got way back in '91.

I have read of some hunters saying you should not shoot any ram under a certain age as it is the big ones we should be hunting.

Would anybody let this one go, especially for a first Ram????

Age and horn length???

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/creatures002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/Misc004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/creatures003.jpg

Cheers

SS

[NaStY]

Here is my first one I got way back in '91.

I have read of some hunters saying you should not shoot any ram under a certain age as it is the big ones we should be hunting.

Would anybody let this one go, especially for a first Ram????

Age and horn length???

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/creatures002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/Misc004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/creatures003.jpg

Cheers

SS

OLD! REALLY OLD

[bigwhiteys]

The only way I would shoot on age is if the ram was broomed heavy, just at the nose and I had a minimum 1, preferably 2 extra rings for "backup."

Good Idea...


Carl, that second sheep in your pictures is really heavy horned he must have had large bases. I would guess the ram in the third pic has the longest curl?

The 2nd sheep is really heavy horned... He scores higher then the rest... Good guess on the longest, it's actually ram #4 he is 44"x44" and 11 years old.


TrapnTrav - there was nothing easy about it !!! :wink:

How long did you sit there studying this ram before you decided to actually shoot...?

Carl

[Avalanche123]

Would anybody let this one go, especially for a first Ram????

Age and horn length???
Cheers

SS

I wouldn't worry about the age as the horn length breaks the bridge of his nose. In addition, I can't even count to "8" let alone try to guess if he is 36" or whatever. LOL:)

So yep, If I could get within range with my bow and he gave me the proper shot, I'd shoot!

[Avalanche123]

My "rule of thumb" is: If I "think" he is legal, he isn't. No shot. I will proceed to look him over but my concern is that over time I will convince myself he is legal.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Here's some horn curl education for you newer guys.

Would you shoot this ram based on the horn view that you have in this pic???

For all you that know the history and age of this ram.....please refrain from posting and let the newer guys have a chance.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/Stone_2005_110.jpg (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=7820&ppuser=1509)

SSS

For those of you that would not pull the pin based on this view you made the correct call.
The near broomed side is just short of full curl....and he is only 7 yrs old. I shot hime based on his other side breaking the bridge of the nose...which is something that you can't clearly see from this angle.

Wait for a better view or let him walk.....or both.

SSS

[Avalanche123]

I have a tough time giving this guy 7 years just because I find the annuli tough to discern and I am not good at it. I think I would have passed on this guy SSS unless that right horn obviously breaks the nose.

From the pic the right one does appear to break the nose but this angle isn't great so I'd wait until he presented a better angle.

[budismyhorse]

Good post SSS....

that will go along ways for rookie thinhorn hunters like myself.

I found the hardest thing was telling myself "they don't HAVE TO BE LEGAL". I felt like where I was legal rams will be in every band due to lack of annual hunting pressure.

There are large sheep out there that are not legal. This is only learned by experience, and just because you busted your ass for days and days doesn't mean every large ram is of age or full curl.

The mountains owe you nothing.

[Bighorn hunter]

here's another tough one to get a age on, thankfully he was over the nose
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/cam2sheep06.jpg

[bigwhiteys]

here's another tough one to get a age on
http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/cam2sheep06.jpg
Major differences between thinhorns and bighorns... but YES - That one would be fun!

Carl

[BCrams]

OLD! REALLY OLD

You might want to reconsider ever aging a sheep in your lifetime and stick with full curl only to save yourself a big headache.

Try again.

[bigwhiteys]

You might want to reconsider ever aging a sheep in your lifetime and stick with full curl only to save yourself a big headache.

Try again.

I was waiting for that one!!! LOL 6.5 could be 7.

Carl

[willy442]

Here is my first one I got way back in '91.

I have read of some hunters saying you should not shoot any ram under a certain age as it is the big ones we should be hunting.

Would anybody let this one go, especially for a first Ram????

Age and horn length???

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/creatures002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/Misc004.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Sitkaspruce/creatures003.jpg

Cheers

SS

Not Another one!
Just think how many other big RAMS could be out there if this fellow was left to BREED until a RIPE OLD AGE OF 8 or more

Sitka; I,m not faulting for shooting this Ram. Agreed anyone would as a guide this Ram could not or should not be shot due to his age the G/O's have had to only select rams over 8 in order to maintain quota. This is where Kozakgriz is out to lunch in his post on the other thread. Goat Guy posted saying quota is no longer set by the average age of the harvest. I hope this is true so Rams of this caliber do not affect harvest stratagies

[Avalanche123]

You might want to reconsider ever aging a sheep in your lifetime and stick with full curl only to save yourself a big headache.
Try again.

Give the guy a break. He gave his best guess and was wrong. No need to be sarcastic as that does nothing to encourage learning IMHO.

And if you weren't being serious, I take it back but ya forgot the "smiley" in that case.

[bigwhiteys]

Give the guy a break. He gave his best guess and was wrong. No need to be sarcastic as that does nothing to encourage learning IMHO. And if you weren't being serious, I take it back but ya forgot the "smiley" in that case.

You make a good point... My laughing wasn't at Nasty5000 guess... It was at BCRams bluntness. Sitkas Ram would be one that aging not required to make him legal... However... What would one do if you ran into a band of 5 rams that were all clearly legal by curl and sitkas was one of them....? How would you determine which ram(s) to shoot?

Carl

[Timbow]

I find it too funny that there are a lot of experts on aging sheep, yet the season is open and here you are on the computer....maybe next year:smile:

[NaStY]

You might want to reconsider ever aging a sheep in your lifetime and stick with full curl only to save yourself a big headache.

Try again.


I was waiting for that one!!! LOL 6.5 could be 7.

Carl

Just a little tired. Been packing for 2 days. Moving to Kelowna today. Have fun with the teaching's. May try and keep up with this one down the road.....

[bigwhiteys]

I find it too funny that there are a lot of experts on aging sheep, yet the season is open and here you are on the computer....maybe next year:smile:

Yep, getting ready to leave in a week ;) Not everyone needs to be a part of the August rush.

Carl

[willy442]

I find it too funny that there are a lot of experts on aging sheep, yet the season is open and here you are on the computer....maybe next year:smile:

I have guided for around a 100 and have shot 1 book Stone Ram for myself a photo of it is included in the pic's posted by BW. I really can't see the need for another. I have gone out on a few trips with friends and would only shoot if I was to find a bigger one. But for now at my age, I'll just get my kicks out of watching the Sheep Hunters on HBC. :smile:

[Avalanche123]

Yep, getting ready to leave in a week ;) Not everyone needs to be a part of the August rush.
Carl

Ditto on that. Looks like I am going to going to hop on the "sheep train" for the last week of Oct. Wht the hell, might as well as see what its all about!

[bigwhiteys]

Ditto on that. Looks like I am going to going to hop on the "sheep train" for the last week of Oct. Wht the hell, might as well as see what its all about!

I've never hunted them that late, but I've seen firsthand how many guys are in the hills in August... At least in Sept some of the focus has shifted to other species.

Carl

[Avalanche123]

However... What would one do if you ran into a band of 5 rams that were all clearly legal by curl and sitkas was one of them....? How would you determine which ram(s) to shoot?
Carl

If they are all clearly legal, I would put the stalk on the one IMHO was the oldest of the gang. As a bowhunter this becomes even more difficult and if there was a younger legal ram that offered better odds of getting closer, I'd have a decision to make.

I'd do my best to count annuli in this case too to help determine age. I have not counted annuli in the field. From the counting I have done on this site, I run about a 50:50 chance of getting it right which isn't good enough. However, I am reasonably confident I would see the difference from 7 yrs to 11 yrs....I hope! Also an older ram has an older body appearance too than a younger ram but that does not work for determining legality as we all know.

[Mik]

WOW, What a great thread....lots of info. I'm not a Sheep hunter, but what I gather from all of this is that after all the time and money invested in a sheep hunt,climbing,exhausting yourself, sleeping in a little fly tent, eating freeze dried food.....you must be "man enough", (on the first few hunts),to pass up on a sheep and call it quits. Sounds like hunting to me.

Just a question, What happened to the basics...ie: if you're not sure of the target,don't shoot?8-)

[Sitkaspruce]

Sitkas Ram would be one that aging not required to make him legal... However... What would one do if you ran into a band of 5 rams that were all clearly legal by curl and sitkas was one of them....? How would you determine which ram(s) to shoot?

Carl

That is almost exactly what happened. There was 4 rams and we spotted them from the lake. One was really dark and the others were really light w/grey. After a 5 hour hike up, we found three of them, the dark one, a really broomed off heavy horned guy and a younger, smaller ram. As I had first shot, so we watched the heavy horned one for about 10 minutes and just could not tell. I then switched to the darker on and after about 30 seconds, could tell he was over the nose. Two shots later he was down. As I was watching mine through the scope as he lay, my partner whispered to me that he had found another one, higher up the slope, and across from us, but he could not tell. I quickly mover over to watch the new one and cranked up my scope to 9 (the spotting scope was in my pack, which was now my rest). After about a minute of watching, he gave me the perfect angle and I said he is legal. One shot and nothing, then I heard cursing and looked to see a rookie mistake of short cycling as he had jamed a new cartridge in with the old. Just as I was ready to pass my gun to him, the ram fell on his face and rolled down the slope. We watched for a couple of minutes and when everything was still we stood up. There stood the heavy broomed off one about 40 yards from us, just looking around. He was massive and now that he was on level ground and was just looking around, we could see that he was a vet of the mountain and was just over the bridge. Oh well we were happy as hell, two rams down and a first for both of us, including the second animal that my partner ever shot. We did not care about age, just that they were over the bridge of the nose.

His ended up being 41x39x15 and was aged at 9.5 and his one shot went through two ribs, the heart and out through two ribs, never hitting a bone. He didn't know he was dead on his feet.

I have been on a few more but have never found a more prettier ram then my first, so I have been more of a guide and packer for many others.

Today, my knees will not let me last more than a day or two in the hills and I have a bigger passion for mulies than sheep or goats, although goats still stir my blood.

Good luck to all those who are heading out, my fav time was in late Sept, as you can tell from the coat on the sheep.

Cheers

SS

[bigwhiteys]

That is almost exactly what happened. There was 4 rams and we spotted them from the lake. One was really dark and the others were really light w/grey. After a 5 hour hike up, we found three of them, the dark one, a really broomed off heavy horned guy and a younger, smaller ram. As I had first shot, so we watched the heavy horned one for about 10 minutes and just could not tell. I then switched to the darker on and after about 30 seconds, could tell he was over the nose. Two shots later he was down. As I was watching mine through the scope as he lay, my partner whispered to me that he had found another one, higher up the slope, and across from us, but he could not tell. I quickly mover over to watch the new one and cranked up my scope to 9 (the spotting scope was in my pack, which was now my rest). After about a minute of watching, he gave me the perfect angle and I said he is legal. One shot and nothing, then I heard cursing and looked to see a rookie mistake of short cycling as he had jamed a new cartridge in with the old. Just as I was ready to pass my gun to him, the ram fell on his face and rolled down the slope. We watched for a couple of minutes and when everything was still we stood up. There stood the heavy broomed off one about 40 yards from us, just looking around. He was massive and now that he was on level ground and was just looking around, we could see that he was a vet of the mountain and was just over the bridge. Oh well we were happy as hell, two rams down and a first for both of us, including the second animal that my partner ever shot. We did not care about age, just that they were over the bridge of the nose.

His ended up being 41x39x15 and was aged at 9.5 and his one shot went through two ribs, the heart and out through two ribs, never hitting a bone. He didn't know he was dead on his feet.


Great Story SitkaSpruce, thanks for sharing!

Carl

[BCrams]

Good story SS!

Nasty - the ram certainly was clearly legal by full curl definition but I just cringe if the same ram with the same horn characteristics was under full curl and you called him 'old' and legal.

[daycort]

How about these ones... Only one of these is an underage (6.5 - full curl) ram. Can you spot which one...?


http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram1.jpg

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram2.jpg


http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram4.jpg

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram3.jpg

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/goodram5.jpg

Carl

Carl,

My pick of a close to a dream ram would be sheep #2. That wouldn't be your old mans ram would it??

Geat pics by they way, everybody.

[BCRiverBoater]

A buddy of mine just went on a guided dall hunt in the NWT. (I will ask if I can post pictures later) He was constantly listening and asking questions on sheep and aging etc. He learned a ton.

One new thing I heard from him was interesting as I have never heard it mentioned before. He had 2 guides and they both said it is the first thing they look at when deciding if the ram is worth a stalk. Of course they are looking for mature large rams. This outfit as a rule no ram under 10 unless absolute hog. So far this year as of last week they are averaging 12 year old rams of the season.

If anyone of you with guides in the family have heard of this let me know because I have never heard it out of a guide before. But it makes sense.

Anyways they look for the 4th year ring immediately. It is the darkest and most prominent. Of course they know what they are looking at but they look at the 4th year ring.

1) If the ring is pointing down, the ram is young and less than 35" walk away without a doubt. By pointing down I mean from the back to the front. Back of horn high pointing down inwards toward nose.

2) If the ring is horizontal the ram is worth a good long look as it will be 36"-39" and mostly likely mature as in 8 or older. Ram may be very respectful so worth a stalk and close look.

3) If ring is pointing upward from back of horn to front of horn facing the nose. Load your gun and start shooting. Stalk it and kill it. It is well over 8 and is 40" plus.

I looked over a few of the rams on this thread today and it looks to be so true. Obviously a young ram with little growth will have the 4 yr ring higher on the horn closer to the skull. This naturaly makes it point upward. A respectful/mature ram will have the ring right the middle of the back curl making it horizontal. An old hog will have extra growth causing the ring to be way down the horn forcing it to point upward.

Very interesting information. Of course you must know rams and be able to find the 4th year growth ring but they said it is the most prominent ring and the easiest for newer hunters to spot. I will be adding this technique to my glassing and guessing game.

AS always respond and take it for what it states and do not rely on it 100% of the time.

[willy442]

A buddy of mine just went on a guided dall hunt in the NWT. (I will ask if I can post pictures later) He was constantly listening and asking questions on sheep and aging etc. He learned a ton.

One new thing I heard from him was interesting as I have never heard it mentioned before. He had 2 guides and they both said it is the first thing they look at when deciding if the ram is worth a stalk. Of course they are looking for mature large rams. This outfit as a rule no ram under 10 unless absolute hog. So far this year as of last week they are averaging 12 year old rams of the season.

If anyone of you with guides in the family have heard of this let me know because I have never heard it out of a guide before. But it makes sense.

Anyways they look for the 4th year ring immediately. It is the darkest and most prominent. Of course they know what they are looking at but they look at the 4th year ring.

1) If the ring is pointing down, the ram is young and less than 35" walk away without a doubt. By pointing down I mean from the back to the front. Back of horn high pointing down inwards toward nose.

2) If the ring is horizontal the ram is worth a good long look as it will be 36"-39" and mostly likely mature as in 8 or older. Ram may be very respectful so worth a stalk and close look.

3) If ring is pointing upward from back of horn to front of horn facing the nose. Load your gun and start shooting. Stalk it and kill it. It is well over 8 and is 40" plus.

I looked over a few of the rams on this thread today and it looks to be so true. Obviously a young ram with little growth will have the 4 yr ring higher on the horn closer to the skull. This naturaly makes it point upward. A respectful/mature ram will have the ring right the middle of the back curl making it horizontal. An old hog will have extra growth causing the ring to be way down the horn forcing it to point upward.

Very interesting information. Of course you must know rams and be able to find the 4th year growth ring but they said it is the most prominent ring and the easiest for newer hunters to spot. I will be adding this technique to my glassing and guessing game.

AS always respond and take it for what it states and do not rely on it 100% of the time.

I think these guides are confusing the third and fourth year rings and this would make sense as a 12 year old average seems awful high especially in Dall Sheep country. But yes you are right as a rule of thumb, providing you are able to determine the proper ring.

[BCRiverBoater]

I think these guides are confusing the third and fourth year rings and this would make sense as a 12 year old average seems awful high especially in Dall Sheep country. But yes you are right as a rule of thumb, providing you are able to determine the proper ring.


Could be but they are setting their season best this year for old rams. They actually shot a 16 yr old a few years ago. Was the oldest that Territory has ever seen. They have shot several 13 year old rams this year I guess. Either way they are setting high standards if they are asked to shoot only 10 yr old rams unless hawgs.

Regardless the info was great but like you said providing you can get the right ring to start with.

[GoatGuy]

Not Another one!
Just think how many other big RAMS could be out there if this fellow was left to BREED until a RIPE OLD AGE OF 8 or more

It's likely that there wouldn't be any more bigs rams if sitka hadn't shot his ram, same with plenty of other young rams that are harvested. In most areas it makes no difference.

My guess is where Sitka hunts residents probably don't shoot rams and really there's no need for a full curl restriction at all. Many parts of Region 6 are that way. Little to no pressure and no resident harvest - most of the outfitters manage their areas extremely well and would only be harvesting mature rams regardless of 'the law' or quota.

Furthermore, genetics are a two way street. The ewe contributes just as much as the ram. :roll:

Also, if you've been reading what they've been doing in the Yukon you're going to find that horn growth (genetics in your mind) is most often linked to good habitat and good growing conditions for the first 2-3 years. Genetics are part of the story but the weather makes a huge difference especially when you're talking about young rams breaking the nose. Have a look at the ci data for the YK and you'll see that it's directly correlated to wx.




Sitka; I,m not faulting for shooting this Ram. Agreed anyone would as a guide this Ram could not or should not be shot due to his age the G/O's have had to only select rams over 8 in order to maintain quota. This is where Kozakgriz is out to lunch in his post on the other thread. Goat Guy posted saying quota is no longer set by the average age of the harvest. I hope this is true so Rams of this caliber do not affect harvest stratagies

7B quota and age aren't linked together. That's only occuring in region 6.

Last year non-residents in 7B shot 31% of the rams under 8.

You'll also have to look into harvest at the MU and region level. The 8 yr old rule is another 'fail-safe' regulation. There are several areas where a 3/4 curl or probably an any ram would be sustainable.

"Trophy" is a definition that is loose and is interchanged from person to person - not everybody shares the same views on what is and isn't a trophy ram.

[willy442]

It's likely that there wouldn't be any more bigs rams if sitka hadn't shot his ram, same with plenty of other young rams that are harvested. In most areas it makes no difference.

My guess is where Sitka hunts residents probably don't shoot rams and really there's no need for a full curl restriction at all. Many parts of Region 6 are that way. Little to no pressure and no resident harvest - most of the outfitters manage their areas extremely well and would only be harvesting mature rams regardless of 'the law' or quota.

Furthermore, genetics are a two way street. The ewe contributes just as much as the ram. :roll:

Also, if you've been reading what they've been doing in the Yukon you're going to find that horn growth (genetics in your mind) is most often linked to good habitat and good growing conditions for the first 2-3 years. Genetics are part of the story but the weather makes a huge difference especially when you're talking about young rams breaking the nose. Have a look at the ci data for the YK and you'll see that it's directly correlated to wx.




7B quota and age aren't linked together. That's only occuring in region 6.

Last year non-residents in 7B shot 31% of the rams under 8.

You'll also have to look into harvest at the MU and region level. The 8 yr old rule is another 'fail-safe' regulation. There are several areas where a 3/4 curl or probably an any ram would be sustainable.

"Trophy" is a definition that is loose and is interchanged from person to person - not everybody shares the same views on what is and isn't a trophy ram.

GG; I think in the last couple of weeks the fact that the information gathered on Stone Sheep age should be documented on SCOTTIES Tissue, so you can do what, you know what with it.
Due to this; Like I have told you many times your info is only as good as the sources gathering it and the numbers can be manipulated to reach whatever end result you wish through formula's.

Tell me how long have you spent studying Sheep? Actually better yet how many Sheep have you ever seen in the wild? I rest my case. Take your info and use it in the same place as the SCOTTIES!:roll:

[willy442]

Could be but they are setting their season best this year for old rams. They actually shot a 16 yr old a few years ago. Was the oldest that Territory has ever seen. They have shot several 13 year old rams this year I guess. Either way they are setting high standards if they are asked to shoot only 10 yr old rams unless hawgs.

Regardless the info was great but like you said providing you can get the right ring to start with.

That's a pretty amazing age to maintain. Outfitter must have a decent management plan, including some form of predator control. He would my choice of Outfitter if, I was in the market.

[GoatGuy]

GG; I think in the last couple of weeks the fact that the information gathered on Stone Sheep age should be documented on SCOTTIES Tissue, so you can do what, you know what with it.
Due to this; Like I have told you many times your info is only as good as the sources gathering it and the numbers can be manipulated to reach whatever end result you wish through formula's.

Contact the bios in the YK and NWT - they'd probably be more than willing to send you information. You will need to understand a bit about statistics.

You can also get the papers from the Sulphur/8 mile project although you probably won't find too much on horn growth.

You can probably google information on genetics but if you haven't realized that daddy isn't the only one who contributes to juniors physical attributes you probably won't get it.




Tell me how long have you spent studying Sheep? Actually better yet how many Sheep have you ever seen in the wild? I rest my case. Take your info and use it in the same place as the SCOTTIES!:roll:

I don't study sheep - have a couple of good buddies who do. Not my program; however, I do understand research, statistics and math fairly well.

As far as sheep I've only seen pictures of them in magazines. :mrgreen: Look for a rubber ducky on floats...................................

[BCRiverBoater]

For starters...when my buddy got his inspected and plugged he asked how the resident pressure was. He knew it is low in the NWT. Guess what? Only 6 rams killed last year by residents he said. They do have a lot of bears and wolves but I think they treat their wolves like we did in the 70's. Do not know for sure but I bet they have a better predator management program than us. They do not have Victoria bugging them.

I find it hard to believe they shoot mostly 10 yr old rams or older but I have tend to believe my buddy. They do hunt their area exclusively with not other pressure. He say over 50 rams in a week and most were legal as they only need to be 3/4 curl there. He said at least 10 were well over the nose. He was also in great shape so they took him to a seldom hunted area where there is known to be less sheep but larger ones.

Never heard of a 16 year old ram. Must have had no teeth or anything.

He did not see the cranker the guides wanted. But say a ton of rams and got a decent one.


That's a pretty amazing age to maintain. Outfitter must have a decent management plan, including some form of predator control. He would my choice of Outfitter if, I was in the market.

[willy442]

Contact the bios in the YK and NWT - they'd probably be more than willing to send you information.

As far as sheep I've only seen pictures of them in magazines. :mrgreen: Look for a rubber ducky on floats...................................

Let me make this a little more clear so you can understand! I REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT REPORTS FROM BIO's.

Your rubber ducky is a Cessna 172, gutless beginner aircraft and not capable of getting to anywhere I might be, so not a whole lot of need to watch for it.:smile:

[Avalanche123]

Personally, I think there is merit in the "science" of it. I also am a firm believer in field experience.

Too bad you too don't see eye to eye. That said, I still find I can get alot out of what you both have to say.

Just keep the comments "civil" so the thread doesn't get locked. Nobody would benefit then...except maybe the last person to get their word in but that's kinda small anyway.

:)

[bighornbob]

Let me make this a little more clear so you can understand! I REALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT REPORTS FROM BIO's.



So are we "the uneducated" supposed to take the numbers from a guide/ outfitter????


BHB

[willy442]

So are we "the uneducated" supoosed to take the numbers from a guide/ outfitter????


BHB

BHB; I don't think for a moment that you or Goat G_ _f are uneducated. My point is to put all your eggs in one basket, believing data that is very often lacking in accurate information is a poor start to managing our Sheep. The Mark 4 rams inspection should make this loud and clear, by bringing what has been brought to the attention of the Ministry many times, out into public view.
These young biologists are no doubt well educated in mathematical formula's, alot like the Engineers I work with everyday. The problem is with out field experience they are always working from a disadvantage and very often fail to see reality. No one can show me valid data that shooting young Rams is good management practice, here in BC or any where else. The problem being these 6 and 7 year olds that seem to fall countinuosly to the inexperienced are the easiest to locate on mountain tops and therefore preyed upon.
Tell me why is it the experienced both on here and in G/O camps can find mature (over 8 year old Rams) with relative ease? Should we change and start harvesting young Rams because some Bio has all of a sudden changed his mind again, I think not.

Don't confuse Thin Horn management with that of the Big Horns and as a member of the Sheep Foundation you should have access to better data than a bio in the Yukon.

[Deadshot]

Tell me why is it the experienced both on here and in G/O camps can find mature (over 8 year old Rams) with relative ease?
The experienced hunter no doubt has his 1st ram & therefore should be more selective. Also the experienced hunter is fully aware of the effort needed to harvest a bigger ram.
G/O's are in their territory alot more than joe hunter & for the most part have an inventory of what's coming of age. I've seen G/O's make moves on 'lesser' legal rams because of client capabilities.
You guys are so full of stats & info (which is fantastic!) that it's borderline intimidating to get into the disscusion.
Keep it coming.

[Avalanche123]

You guys are so full of stats & info (which is fantastic!) that it's borderline intimidating to get into the disscusion.
Keep it coming.

Hmmm I don't find it intimidating, I just can't add alot as I don't have the mileage....yet.

I have to say though that this has certainly been very informative. It all leads to making better decisions in the field.

[GoatGuy]

BHB; I don't think for a moment that you or Goat G_ _f are uneducated. My point is to put all your eggs in one basket, believing data that is very often lacking in accurate information is a poor start to managing our Sheep. The Mark 4 rams inspection should make this loud and clear, by bringing what has been brought to the attention of the Ministry many times, out into public view.
These young biologists are no doubt well educated in mathematical formula's, alot like the Engineers I work with everyday. The problem is with out field experience they are always working from a disadvantage and very often fail to see reality. No one can show me valid data that shooting young Rams is good management practice, here in BC or any where else. The problem being these 6 and 7 year olds that seem to fall countinuosly to the inexperienced are the easiest to locate on mountain tops and therefore preyed upon.
Tell me why is it the experienced both on here and in G/O camps can find mature (over 8 year old Rams) with relative ease? Should we change and start harvesting young Rams because some Bio has all of a sudden changed his mind again, I think not.

Don't confuse Thin Horn management with that of the Big Horns and as a member of the Sheep Foundation you should have access to better data than a bio in the Yukon.

Biologists don't do CI's in BC anymore - it's contracted out. Age can be screwed up, horn measurements are pretty tough.

If you looked at the research and CI data in the YK you could come to one of three conclusions.

1) Weather affects horn growth significantly, particularly in the first 2-3 years and this is demonstrated in following years with big horned rams

or

2) randomly, every once in a while there's a big crop of rams with big horns that the stork came by and dropped off.

or

3) Genetics only kick in every couple of generations


You also seem to 'think' it's all about trophy sheep and you 'think' you need to shoot only 8+ years olds to do that.

You think it's all about trophy hunting and it's not - that's only your opinion. Your opinion has little to do with conservation and does not consider how many sheep could be harvested out of a population. Case and point - your justification for residents on LEH was messy camps around Muncho. :idea: Conservation??????

Your opinion does not consider that there are populations where residents do not, have not, and will not harvest sheep. There's absolutely no reason not to bring restrictions off. You do not consider exactly what makes a big ram besides age and harvest. There are so many factors that affect your 'trophy' idea that are not related to age and harvest that it's unbelievable.

Funny enough, your mentality is actually based on biology that has setup a 'fail-safe' season for thinhorns - created by biologists for folks like you.

Most of the sheep biologists are and were guides and hunters - not just in Dady's area. Some of them are very well researched, traveled and have guided and/or hunted both thinhorns and bighorns across Western Canada.

The comment about engineers is a good one. I'm certain, given the right conditions 'in the field', you could deign and engineer a the boeing dreamliner.:wink: Get them engineers right out of a job.

[Gateholio]

Keep it NON personal, guys...

[willy442]

Biologists don't do CI's in BC anymore - it's contracted out. Age can be screwed up, horn measurements are pretty tough.

If you looked at the research and CI data in the YK you could come to one of three conclusions.

1) Weather affects horn growth significantly, particularly in the first 2-3 years and this is demonstrated in following years with big horned rams

or

2) randomly, every once in a while there's a big crop of rams with big horns that the stork came by and dropped off.

or

3) Genetics only kick in every couple of generations


You also seem to 'think' it's all about trophy sheep and you 'think' you need to shoot only 8+ years olds to do that.

You think it's all about trophy hunting and it's not - that's only your opinion. Your opinion has little to do with conservation and does not consider how many sheep could be harvested out of a population. Case and point - your justification for residents on LEH was messy camps around Muncho. :idea: Conservation??????

Your opinion does not consider that there are populations where residents do not, have not, and will not harvest sheep. There's absolutely no reason not to bring restrictions off. You do not consider exactly what makes a big ram besides age and harvest. There are so many factors that affect your 'trophy' idea that are not related to age and harvest that it's unbelievable.

Funny enough, your mentality is actually based on biology that has setup a 'fail-safe' season for thinhorns - created by biologists for folks like you.

Most of the sheep biologists are and were guides and hunters - not just in Dady's area. Some of them are very well researched, traveled and have guided and/or hunted both thinhorns and bighorns across Western Canada.

The comment about engineers is a good one. I'm certain, given the right conditions 'in the field', you could deign and engineer a the boeing dreamliner.:wink: Get them engineers right out of a job.

GG; No doubt weather, feed, daylight hours, genetics and many other factors come into play in horn growth. ( All grade 1 information )

Biologist only aged sheep for a very short period of time in BC and quit for a few reasons, not all monetary. (again old info and no need for detail) They were no better at it than the contractors are now. Example MARK 4, you don't even have to go to the Yukon to get the info, it's posted right here on this site.

Yes; Sheep hunting is primarily trophy hunting. I have yet to meet anyone that heads out after a ewe for meat. (maybe when you graduate from a courier pilot to a biologist this, can change as you educate us on best harvest practices)

Have I not explained to you before that limited entry is a form of managing people not wildlife. Hence accessable areas should be on limited entry or some form of regulation. The areas you speak of that are harder to access can be left less restricted ( again grade 1 management).

I fail to remember ever stating that messy camps was the reason for restriction, you have twisted what I stated around to match what you want, just like the harvest numbers you so freely quote. I did say that since restrictions have come about there are less messy camps that need cleaned up.

As for the biologists being guides and spending countless hours watching sheep. I have come across 1 that was actually out in the field more than a couple of weeks per year. Many of these Biologists that you repeatedly speak of and cut and paste articles from, fail to agree amongst themselves on the info you are backing. Let me also remind you, I was hunting sheep and guiding long before any real management was taking place, then we could hunt into December. This was long before, Biologists came up with your so called " FAIL SAFE " harvest management plan. I know you weren't around back then so you never had a chance to view game management practices of the era. To help you out in those times we (the guides and outfitters) conducted habitat burns, administered predator control programs and game counts on our own. These forms of management worked very well at the time. Then along came Biologists and with them came Politics and fail safe methods to manage our back country under one big umbrella. Predator control was stopped, Burns were conflicting with the Forestry so they were stopped, then restarted, when and how burns could be conducted changed. They even came up with a new name for them (PRESCRIBED BURNS) the only trouble is when they want to prescribe one it's alway's too early in the spring to do any damn good. Game counts for a while were conducted from aircraft, as a pilot you should know how reliable that is looking down through the Spruce and Poplar branches, give them credit though it didn't take long and they caught on to the way the old guy's did inventory, on the winter ranges at a time when counting was easy. The Biologists and Politicians have done a good job though, they have people such as yourself buying into thier scheme of things whole heartedly. Just maybe if you had been around long enough to see these changes, you would understand the sceptisism of myself and other old timers.

Biologists are trying to manage on poor data. They do not have the funding to do it properly, no money for proper studies, little opportunity to burn, no predator control and habitat is reducing to make way for developement. These items and the fact that our hunting dollars go straight into general revenue, instead of back into the resource, leaves me thinking politicians will always be distributing inadequate funds and the endless circle will continue, a circle that you have also bought into whole heartedly as shown by your postings.

Now if you need the last word please reply to my post, try using info that you have gained through personal knowledge, not that which has been given to you by all your schooled friends. Like stated in an earlier post I've seen the material you keep refering to a thousand times, a name change at the bottom of the paper really won't do anything for management.

[Gateholio]

Yes; Sheep hunting is primarily trophy hunting. I have yet to meet anyone that heads out after a ewe for meat. .

There is a guy that used to post on HBC that got a leh ewe draw and not only did he kill one for the meat, he had the head mounted.:oops:

:wink:

[GoatGuy]

GG; No doubt weather, feed, daylight hours, genetics and many other factors come into play in horn growth. ( All grade 1 information )

Biologist only aged sheep for a very short period of time in BC and quit for a few reasons, not all monetary. (again old info and no need for detail) They were no better at it than the contractors are now. Example MARK 4, you don't even have to go to the Yukon to get the info, it's posted right here on this site.

Yes; Sheep hunting is primarily trophy hunting. I have yet to meet anyone that heads out after a ewe for meat. (maybe when you graduate from a courier pilot to a biologist this, can change as you educate us on best harvest practices)

Have I not explained to you before that limited entry is a form of managing people not wildlife. Hence accessable areas should be on limited entry or some form of regulation. The areas you speak of that are harder to access can be left less restricted ( again grade 1 management).

I fail to remember ever stating that messy camps was the reason for restriction, you have twisted what I stated around to match what you want, just like the harvest numbers you so freely quote. I did say that since restrictions have come about there are less messy camps that need cleaned up.

As for the biologists being guides and spending countless hours watching sheep. I have come across 1 that was actually out in the field more than a couple of weeks per year. Many of these Biologists that you repeatedly speak of and cut and paste articles from, fail to agree amongst themselves on the info you are backing. Let me also remind you, I was hunting sheep and guiding long before any real management was taking place, then we could hunt into December. This was long before, Biologists came up with your so called " FAIL SAFE " harvest management plan. I know you weren't around back then so you never had a chance to view game management practices of the era. To help you out in those times we (the guides and outfitters) conducted habitat burns, administered predator control programs and game counts on our own. These forms of management worked very well at the time. Then along came Biologists and with them came Politics and fail safe methods to manage our back country under one big umbrella. Predator control was stopped, Burns were conflicting with the Forestry so they were stopped, then restarted, when and how burns could be conducted changed. They even came up with a new name for them (PRESCRIBED BURNS) the only trouble is when they want to prescribe one it's alway's too early in the spring to do any damn good. Game counts for a while were conducted from aircraft, as a pilot you should know how reliable that is looking down through the Spruce and Poplar branches, give them credit though it didn't take long and they caught on to the way the old guy's did inventory, on the winter ranges at a time when counting was easy. The Biologists and Politicians have done a good job though, they have people such as yourself buying into thier scheme of things whole heartedly. Just maybe if you had been around long enough to see these changes, you would understand the sceptisism of myself and other old timers.

Biologists are trying to manage on poor data. They do not have the funding to do it properly, no money for proper studies, little opportunity to burn, no predator control and habitat is reducing to make way for developement. These items and the fact that our hunting dollars go straight into general revenue, instead of back into the resource, leaves me thinking politicians will always be distributing inadequate funds and the endless circle will continue, a circle that you have also bought into whole heartedly as shown by your postings.

Now if you need the last word please reply to my post, try using info that you have gained through personal knowledge, not that which has been given to you by all your schooled friends. Like stated in an earlier post I've seen the material you keep refering to a thousand times, a name change at the bottom of the paper really won't do anything for management.


Who/what are you managing sheep for?

[willy442]

[quote=GoatGuy;321922]Who/what are you managing sheep for?[/quote



SHEEP!:smile:

[GoatGuy]

Who/what are you managing sheep for?



SHEEP!:smile:

How are you managing for sheep?

Tell us how it works.

Be specific.

[willy442]

Corb to age a Ram. Please do not make your decision to shoot on any one thing other than above the bridge of the nose. Sheep have a few different tell tale signs of age, size, health etc. In my post on your thread of how to age a Ram, I got into this a bit. Things to look for are 1. Is he above the bridge of the nose? 2. If not over the nose is he broomed? 3. If 1&2s answers are no then we go to step 4. Age. Before even attempting to count rings, look at the signs of age ie; roughness of the leading edge in the area of the bases, the tightness of annuli in the same area, what is the amount of dark black horn resembling new growth this year. If some or all of these signs resemble the photos you have seen of good Rams (the rams in Big Whiteys post are all sheep I've taken study them for the signs I refer to)then we go to step 5. This is the actual counting of annuli, my suggestion here is you do a count using both methods ie; a count from the base out and also one from the tip in and compare your results, because very often you will pick up new or false annuli when comparing. Tricks to determing annuli are 1. the rings themselves, 2. the amount of growth between what you are calling annuli decrease symetrically over the horn as the Ram ages. ( if a ram is injured or sick for a period of time this may change because horn growth will decrease over the period of illness) you will see the annuli become close together for a year and the growth increase with health. These types of Rams are usually shorter in horn length and easily picked up on even to the untrained eye. When in the area of the bases rings are hard to count and could be covered by hair on later hunts, so look for the blackness of recent growth (your ram is a good example of this) at the top of that growth start counting towards the tip. Under doing this the third year ring should become very apparent to you. It will be the last ring that looks like the ones you have been counting. Remember the second year ring could also be prominent, but it will be slightly less defined than the third year and up. The indented darkness of the 2nd ring most often fails to give good detail all the way around the horn also. Once you have picked up the third ring count in towards the bases and if you can come up with 8 before you run out of horn pull the trigger. Because really any eight year old and up Sheep is a trophy ram.

To answer the other part of your question. Lambs are born in late June we hunt them starting in August so really the time people refer to as half a years is 2 months. In the first summer as a lamb the horn growth will be about 1.5 inches by the time horn growth stops in October. Then the lamb will grow again starting in May/June and grow 5-6 inches before stopping again and creating the second annuli. The third summer the Ram will grow atround 6-8 inches and the annuli made starting in October will be his third. On a Ram with lamb tips you will see it about 11-15 inches from the tip to the third year ring. Once determined countinue counting the visible rings. Do not call any ring that fails to show uniform growth as a year through optics. For most false years can only be truely determined on a bench.

Good Luck Corb. Feel free to quiz me anytime.
Bill

[GoatGuy]

Who/what are you managing sheep for?



SHEEP!:smile:

Are you going to elaborate on that?

How many sheep should be harvested and why?

Please be specific.......

[willy442]

Are you going to elaborate on that?

How many sheep should be harvested and why?

Please be specific.......

No need to elaborate and waste my time in a dispute with some one who can only read and post from anothers studies and reports.

As long as the harvest is kept at 8 years of age and hunters are educated in judging older rams, there is no real need for any more restriction as the sheep herds seem to do just fine. If the 6 & 7 year old rams continue to be taken our herds will no doubt decline in numbers. Argue if you want I really don't care.

Now you asked at one point " just what have I done for Sheep" How about you contact FNAWS and ask what the value of hunts we donated from thier inception up until 1993 was, once you get a value for that, then include various water hole projects in Arizona, Nevada and transplants in Idaho. On a more local level annual counts with in our guide area (that were documented and report to the Ministry as they asked). Various habitat burns, predator controls, flying time and countless hours of meetings questioning info like you post here on site.

Now besides cutting and pasting others information that you seem to trust without question. Please tell me what you have done. Standing in front of a crowd giving a power point presentation of some one else's information don't count.

This has been an educational thread to many, that you are trying to take side ways, which is a real shame, but falls right in line with what you do personnally, for the preservation and longivity of our hunting.:-(

[GoatGuy]

No need to elaborate and waste my time in a dispute with some one who can only read and post from anothers studies and reports.

As long as the harvest is kept at 8 years of age and hunters are educated in judging older rams, there is no real need for any more restriction as the sheep herds seem to do just fine. If the 6 & 7 year old rams continue to be taken our herds will no doubt decline in numbers.


Why does the harvest need to be 8 years of age?

What does it mean if some 6 & 7 year old rams are harvested? Can we harvest any 6/7 yr olds?

Can we harvest any other age classes of rams or some ewes?

How does that affect the population?

Why is there no doubt there will be a decline in numbers if 6&7 yr old rams are harvested?

Why are there different horn curl regulations for thinhorns in other jurisdictions?

Why do we have full curl horn restrictions in BC if we should only be harvesting 8 yr old rams?

Finally, how does this all tie into conservation requirements for stone's sheep?

I think this is very beneficial - it would be great if you shared your expertise on this.

[Avalanche123]

Wow....that is a lot of questions there Goat Guy. Poor Willy442 must be having flash backs from high school!:)

I do look forward to the answers though. It is educational.

[willy442]

Why does the harvest need to be 8 years of age?

What does it mean if some 6 & 7 year old rams are harvested? Can we harvest any 6/7 yr olds?

Can we harvest any other age classes of rams or some ewes?

How does that affect the population?

Why is there no doubt there will be a decline in numbers if 6&7 yr old rams are harvested?

Why are there different horn curl regulations for thinhorns in other jurisdictions?

Why do we have full curl horn restrictions in BC if we should only be harvesting 8 yr old rams?

Finally, how does this all tie into conservation requirements for stone's sheep?

I think this is very beneficial - it would be great if you shared your expertise on this.

GG; You are the guy with access to all the stats. I have posted what I have learned over many years of climbing mountains and hunting Sheep. For me to waste my time replying to your smart ass attitude accomplishes nothing and like I said before will ruin a good thread.
On every occassion when a question is posed to you it's avoided and the circle continues. If you want more information on Sheep get it elsewhere or go gather it with your Cessna 172.(good luck)
My focus is on helping those that have respect for experience on this site and want info, many of which PM me constantly with questions that I'm sure you are incapable of answering.:roll:

[GoatGuy]

GG; You are the guy with access to all the stats. I have posted what I have learned over many years of climbing mountains and hunting Sheep. For me to waste my time replying to your smart ass attitude accomplishes nothing and like I said before will ruin a good thread.


They're very simple questions.

You believe people shouldn't be harvesting 6 and 7 yr olds and telling them what they should be shooting. You're stating that shooting rams under 8 will hurt sheep and that there shouldn't be anything under 8 yrs old harvested:

Why?

How does this tie into conservation?

Where did you get the idea?


Please be specific - feel free to share your own experiences.


This thread is about learning. You'll notice I've refrained from the banter - only asking very pointed questions which seem to be very relevant to the thread. People should know why somebody with your experience believes nobody should harvest anything under 8 yrs old.

[horshur]

Jessie Z have you read any of David Petersens books? Such as "Elkheart",'Hunters Heart", "Heartsblood" ????

[willy442]

This thread is about learning. You'll notice I've refrained from the banter - only asking very pointed questions which seem to be very relevant to the thread. People should know why somebody with your experience believes nobody should harvest anything under 8 yrs old.

How about you tell them at the same time as you answer the questions posed to you on just what you have done for Sheep in another post.

You seem to have difficulty understanding that communicating with you through these posts is a waste of my time. Your idea's and copy and paste articles are not really relevant or required in a post directed at helping a hunter determine if a Ram is legal or not, through horn length or age. Which is what this post is about.

If you are set on starting a debate about Sheep management with me. Start a post of your own that is directed at that instead of continually trying to side track this one.

[Goathunter]

Very informative Willy442. Nice to hear from someone actually out in the field. Thanks for all the sheep conservation efforts. All sheep hunters should appreciate them.