First sheep !!

[mark4]

Hello fellow hunters- I am thrilled to say that I finally got my first sheep. It is far from a record book or monster but for me it was excellent. I just had him inspected and plugged and he is a legal eight year old. On the fifth day of our hunt ( August 7th) I saw some rams feeding in a basin below our vantage point, they were slowly working their way up the mountain as they grazed so I picked a hidden route and got closer. Once I was closer I glassed them again and they were still coming up the mountain, At 800 yards- I couldn't move or the rams would have seen me foresure. I waited until the rams went over top of this little hill, then I booked it across two more ugly slides to get closer. It took two hours to reach them. The last 200 yards I went real slow and careful until I reached where I had last seen the rams. As I peered over the top I could see the rams bedded down about 80 yards below me. I pulled out the binoculars and counted annuli over and over again for atleast an hour- the ram was not full curl but he was legal. For the longest time there was another ram bedded directly behind the shooter so I had to wait or risk killing both rams with one shot. Other rams, Ewes and lambs started showing up and I thought I was going to get busted lying so close to them. Finally the ram in behind changed positions and was out of the way. A few minutes later all the sheep on that bench looked downhill and away from my position. I sat up- took the safety off - and used my knee as a gun rest. I shot the ram once on the spot and he died instantly. This was a very tough hunt overall, the amount of hiking was mind boggling- we hiked for an average of 12 hours a day. It was an excellent adventure I will never forget. This entire trip came together because of a tip from another BC hunter- thank you so much- you are the man. To all the other sheep hunters out there - my only advice - KEEP ON TRYING until your ram goes down !!!

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff222/bc338/100_1628.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff222/bc338/100_1636.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff222/bc338/100_1612.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff222/bc338/100_1639.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff222/bc338/100_1623.jpg

[daycort]

good stuff!! I bet it was all worth it.

[Deadshot]

Congrats!
Way to take the time to age him.
Nice dark cape, should make for a nice mount!

[catwelder]

Congrats on a nice ram!!!! hope i have that kind of luck next year

[BigBanger]

Great job . Nice looking ram .

[ursus]

Good for you! You will always remember your first!;)

[srupp]

great ram CONGRADULATIONS....and wonderful photos...good job on aging the ram..something few can do accuratly...

and ANY LEGAL RAM...is a great ram and a lifelong memory to be celebrated in song and dance..


cheers

Steven

[Deadshot]

a lifelong memory to be celebrated in song and dance..


cheers

Steven
LOL! Videos PLEASE!:biggrin:

[BiG Boar]

Man that is awsome! Good work, and a great story also on how it all went down. I love reading about hunts like this a dreaming! Sweet!

[Jelvis]

Great work hunting and connecting on a wonderful head. Congratulations the memories will be in technicolor lol. Great thanks for the pictures. Jel-sheepish-mark4

[Avalanche123]

Well done on get the first one done! Looks like great weather and a very well deserved sheep. Love the pics too!

[2slow]

nice job, sounds like memories to last a lifetime

[NaStY]

Very nice!

Hope to do that one day as well.....

[Krico]

Congrats big time, well done. To harvest any legal sheep is a major accomplishment. You will relive those final moments over and over, and for good reason!

[LeverActionJunkie]

Congratulations on a great ram. Thanks for sharing.

[whitetailsheds]

Nice ram, congrats!

[Mr. Dean]

cheers!!!!!

[guest]

Good on ya Mark 4 ! Just a short time ago you were asking for " Any Tips ?"
Well it appears you listened to the many !!
Right on !! The first is special, you'll never forget the hard work and appreciation for these animals and the places they live !
Again .... CONGRATS !
C/T

[livingston]

Good job!! Nice pictures!! I can't wait to get up in the mountains, I don't leave for another two weeks. August is dragging by:-D

[MichaelB]

Congratulations! Beautiful ram.

[BCrams]

Congrats on your ram!! Beautiful country too!

Beware of the sheep bug. Its life afflicting.

[bozzdrywall]

way to go man i hope i can tell a story about a ram hunt next year i will be back in fernie next week i will get ahold of you

[jml11]

All these sheep showing up on here and in my email inbox are making me question my decision to not go looking for Stone's this year!!!

Congrats on your first ram, and as BCrams said be aware of the sheep bug. I got my first ram last year and am now chronically infected with sheepitis. I blame him for talking me into going, LOL.

[CT.45]

Nice story to go with a fine trophy. Congrats. I sure would love a similar one for sure. Lots of jealous guys here for sure.

[mark4]

Thank you guy's for all the congrat's. I appreciate all the advice I recieved. Yes just a few weeks ago I was asking for tips from some of you experienced sheep chasers. I kept hearing glass, glass, glass, it was very true. I never realized how much terrain there was to glass- it's endless and those sheep really do blend in like crazy. Ten four on the whitey Darrell- we'll stick you in one of those nutbar funnels with rubs as thick as your leg - you better bring a gun LOL. Good luck to all BC hunters this fall. Thanks again for the help and congrats !!!

[Orangethunder]

Congrats on the ram. Sounds like an awesome hunt. I imagine it was pretty exciting waiting for the other sheep to clear when you knew you had a legal ram in range. Thanks for the pics and sharing the story.

[kennyj]

Excellent ram and excellent photos.Congratulations!
Kenny

[quadrakid]

first sheep,does it get any better? congrats

[happygilmore]

Soooo jealous...congrats . heydo you think you could post a closer side pic of the ram? Need practice counting annuli.

[Blainer]

GREAT STORY!
GREAT PICTURES!
GREAT RAM!
Very happy for you.
I try for my first in 6 days,and yes I'm counting.
Good on ya.

[Tikka7mm]

well done....

[srupp]

hmmm only 20 more sheeps...errrr make that sleeps..till our go at it....

great ram..

Steven

[Mtnhunter]

Congratulations Mark4!!! And good Luck to you Steve!

[Fisher-Dude]

Nice ram! Good optics pay off big time again! Now that your tag is punched, I'm expecting you to PM me the GPS coordinates of the easiest bighorn in region 4! :biggrin:

[308Lover]

Looking at that country and also stories from SSS and Co., a new word in my vocab is "sheep Shape" You better be in awesome shape to hunt with these guys. Thanks for sharing that great hunt, cool air, and pack-in food! A nice ram --I'd be happy with it for sure!

[scoot]

Soooo jealous...congrats . heydo you think you could post a closer side pic of the ram? Need practice counting annuli.

Yah, Would be cool to have a good side profile. I am headed in for my first sheep in 12 days. Still am not confident enough counting:-|

[Dale]

good job!!! sounds like you deserve that one with all the work that you put into him. well done.

[ohno]

That is a nice ram, and beautiful country.

[mark4]

As you guy's already know- counting annuli is pretty difficult unless you have a real good view of your ram- I was lucky in that I was only 80 yards away and above the ram so I had quite a bit of time to review his rings over and over again. The 10 x 42 Swarovski's didn't hurt the situation either- worth every penny. I have used these same binoculars to see stickers on bull elk that made them legal six pointers- when they looked like five pointers through the rifle scope or naked eye. Anyway's I realize that counting annuli is a dangerous game- so I don't want to really encourage new hunters to try their luck and shoot an illegal ram !! I had a hard time finding info on the subject myself- there are a lot of guy's on this site that could school me on the subject but I have included some close-up pictures to show what a legal ram looks like. I like to start at the tip, I count the first real prominent ring as a three year ring- this ring is usually about 6 or 7 inches back from the tip, and it means the ram has completed three years of life. The next "space" is his fourth year, the space after that is his fifth year, the next space after that is his sixth year, and so on. The spaces should get smaller and smaller with each year, as you get closer to the skull. You should be able to count five spaces after his third year ring. If anyone else would like to add any useful info please do- hopefully I am not confusing this process or sending out faulty info !! here are a few pics.

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff222/bc338/100_1688.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff222/bc338/100_1689.jpg

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff222/bc338/100_1690.jpg


At any significant distance it is virtually impossible to tell forsure if it's legal- hopefully you guy's will run into rams that have horns that go past the bridge of the nose. This is still not that easy either, as those rams move their heads so much!! All I can say is make sure before you fire- It would be a crying shame to kill a beautiful ram that would have been legal the very next year.

[bigwhiteys]

Can someone please help me out on this one.... Where is the 8th year annuli on this ram?
http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/ramannuli.jpg

If it's legal I would like to know how...? Was this ram inspected in FSJ?

Carl

[rafike]

Great sheep, what type of rifle scope and caliber and how far was the shot.
Pete

[Orangethunder]

Can someone please help me out on this one.... Where is the 8th year annuli on this ram?
http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/ramannuli.jpg

If it's legal it's legal I am not disputing that fact but I would like to know how...? Was this ram inspected in FSJ?

Carl


I always have bitch of time with these. I have done tons of reading on annuli, false annuli, how to etc ect etc. I got one of the local CO's to look at some rams (he had) and we had a BS session. After it was all said and done I decided to only shoot based on curl OR VERY obvious age, ie 10+ and even then not for sure. Congrats on bagging a ram.

[buckguy]

Nice looking ram! Bet all the hiking and hard work seems worth it now. Way to take the time and paitence to make him legal.

[Deadshot]

I aged that ram at 6.5 years old also. Had F. Gilbert age a ram last year at 7.5 and I swear it was and still is 8.5. My taxidermist agreed! It shouldn't be up for debate in my eyes. The people that know, should know!

[whitetailsheds]

Shouldn't be up for debate? Perhaps not. It's been inspected and plugged as Mark4 has said. End of discussion? This is an excellent opportunity to learn. I have picked up so much on here from the experienced/ knowledgeable sheep hunters. And now some are asking for a simple explanation as to how to count rings on this ram. I'd like to know how to get an age of 8 on this guy. Cause I think I've passed up quite a few rams that were legal then.

[mark4]

If you count the spaces instead of the rings you will come up with six. The longest space on the tip is worth three and the rest are worth one. On the diagram you showed, the 2.5 year ring is what I thought was a three year ring. I read it somewhere anyway. It is so easy to mis-count and to think that there are false annuli there sometimes.

[Rattler]

Congrats on your first Stone....

[bigwhiteys]

If you count the spaces instead of the rings you will come up with six. The longest space on the tip is worth three and the rest are worth one. On the diagram you showed, the 2.5 year ring is what I thought was a three year ring. I read it somewhere anyway. It is so easy to mis-count and to think that there are false annuli there sometimes.

If you go by the first annuli you see as 3.5 by my count the sheep still doesn't make 8 years of age until next spring.

http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/ramannuli2.jpg

Carl

[jml11]

Can someone please help me out on this one.... Where is the 8th year annuli on this ram?
http://www.bchuntingblog.com/mypics/ramannuli.jpg

If it's legal it's legal I am not disputing that fact but I would like to know how...? Was this ram inspected in FSJ?

Carl

No help here I would have called it same as you. I always thought the first ring you can slightly see was 1.5 years which would make the first ring you can definitely see 2.5. Is there another ring just above the hairline?

[jml11]

I imagine there will be thread on this soon enough, just thought I would post a side profile of a ram we got last year. A full curl 38 inch ram inspected at 7.5 years (I think this makes the first prominent ring at the very bottom of the curl 2.5 years??). Hopefully this will help those interested in counting rings.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/P9060005.JPG

[BCrams]

I have the ram aged at 6.5 years.

(I just didn't want to say anything earlier).

I would love for someone to tell me where the extra year is.

Better yet - I would love to meet the guy who did the aging of this ram and explain how he ages the sheep he inspects. He should not be inspecting rams.

[BCrams]

I imagine there will be thread on this soon enough, just thought I would post a side profile of a ram we got last year. A full curl 38 inch ram inspected at 7.5 years (I think this makes the first prominent ring at the very bottom of the curl 2.5 years??). Hopefully this will help those interested in counting rings.

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/P9060005.JPG

Bottom annuli is indeed the 2.5 yr marker and clearly 7.5 years.

[BCRiverBoater]

I as well had 6.5 yesterday. Maybe 7.5 if I missed one. I had a buddy who lost a ram years ago that we all said was 8.5 or 9.5 and was at the nose give or take a mm. He had the ram inspected and they said 7.5 and took it away. The inspector was a first year student...

He got a ram 3 years later (they made him keep his tag canceled and therefore had to wait 3 years) that was a lot smaller but over the nose. It is still the biggest ram he has taken to date. Talk about being upset.

[mudbud]

ok this may be a silly question, but how do they "check" full curl?

[jml11]

I as well had 6.5 yesterday. Maybe 7.5 if I missed one. I had a buddy who lost a ram years ago that we all said was 8.5 or 9.5 and was at the nose give or take a mm. He had the ram inspected and they said 7.5 and took it away. The inspector was a first year student...



I wonder if you are able to contest an inspection? Get a second opinion...

Did the inspector use a jig? They are supposed to on sheep that are borderline full curl. If he didn't I would definitely have some concerns and try to appeal the decision. I realize it was many years ago and probably water under the bridge now...too bad.

[BCrams]

Here's one profile from aging.

Now some of you will be like "how did I determine the 1/2 year to start" ......

Stay tuned ...... its easily shown in another photo to come ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/100_1689.jpg

[jml11]

ok this may be a silly question, but how do they "check" full curl?


See my previous post.

They use a jig, never seen it used or know what it looks like but as far as I know the sheep skull is placed in the 'jig' which has a flat board portion on hinges. With the sheep secured in the jig the board is lowered and will either hit the horns first (if curl legal) or the bridge of the nose (if short). Can someone concur?? Another tip, always bring borderline sheep in with cape removed...gives you a favorable fraction of inch if you need it....

[BCRiverBoater]

He never contested the full curl part as he was certain the ram was 8.5 or even 9.5. He thought the ram may be full curl when he shot but counted rings to pull the trigger.

I do not know all the details on how the inspecting went but I know he was choked. Have not heard of the jig but that was not the real debate.

[bighornbob]

The "jig" is a wooden contraption with a horseshoe shaped metal plate on a wood holder. The sheeps skull fits in between the inside sides of the horse shoe. The back of the horns sit on the inside curve of the horse shoe. There is a windage screw the pushes down and holds on to the nose of the skull.

Where a sheep must be a full curl (eye socket). The definition is the horn must break a line from the back edge of the horn bases and the bottom of the eye socket. So with the skull sitting on the metal horse shoe (back edge is touching), you use the tightening screw to push down on the nose until the bottom edge of the eye socket is level with the steel plate which is the horse shoe. The horse shoe is flat and about 2 inches wide. You can take a straight edge and hold flat against the shoe and see if it lines up with the eye socket. If it does you now have your stright line as the back edge of the horns bases are sitting on the horse shoe. You then take the same straight edge and holding it flat against the metal plate (shoe) spin it around. If it hits horn, then the horn has crossed the line between the back of the bases and the eye socket meaning it is a legal sheep.

I hope thats not too confusing.

BHB

[jml11]

The "jig" is a wooden contraption with a horseshoe shaped metal plate on a wood holder. The sheeps skull fits in between the inside sides of the horse shoe. The back of the horns sit on the inside curve of the horse shoe. There is a windage screw the pushes down and holds on to the nose of the skull.

Where a sheep must be a full curl (eye socket). The definition is the horn must break a line from the back edge of the horn bases and the bottom of the eye socket. So with the skull sitting on the metal horse shoe (back edge is touching), you use the tightening screw to push down on the nose until the bottom edge of the eye socket is level with the steel plate which is the horse shoe. The horse shoe is flat and about 2 inches wide. You can take a straight edge and hold flat against the shoe and see if it lines up with the eye socket. If it does you now have your stright line as the back edge of the horns bases are sitting on the horse shoe. You then take the same straight edge and holding it flat against the metal plate (shoe) spin it around. If it hits horn, then the horn has crossed the line between the back of the bases and the eye socket meaning it is a legal sheep.

I hope thats not too confusing.

BHB

This is for bighorns only. I think the question was targeted at thinhorns, which must break the bridge of the nose to be considered full curl. They may use the same jig, that I don't know.

[mark4]

What I read was that the first very prominent ring about six inches from the tip marks not only the end of the rams third year but the beginning of his fourth year. The very next ring you see marks the end of the rams fourth year but also the beginning of his fifth year. The very next ring marks the end of his fifth year but also the beginning of his sixth. The ring that big whitey's marked as 6.5 to me is the END of the rams 7th year but more importantly the BEGINNING of his eighth year. The horn formed in between this 7th ring and the skull was formed after the rams seventh year of life had completed and his eighth year had begun. We all know that the rings are formed in the winter and that sheep are born in the spring. If he had a visible 8th annuli he would actually be 9 because each ring marks not only the end of a year but the beginning of another. The eighth anulli would mark the end of eight years of life and the beginning of his ninth year. I think the confusion lies in that people think that the first prominent ring shows the ram "just turned" three as opposed to he has aleady lived three full years and is starting his fourth year. If you look at the diagram again and count the first prominant ring as a marker for the end of three years and the beggining of the fourth year it will make sense. This was supposed to be the quickest and easiest way to age a ram in the field. Supposed to being the key words LOL

[Stone Sheep Steve]

What I read was that the first very prominent ring about six inches from the tip marks not only the end of the rams third year but the beginning of his fourth year. The very next ring you see marks the end of the rams fourth year but also the beginning of his fifth year. The very next ring marks the end of his fifth year but also the beginning of his sixth. The ring that big whitey's marked as 6.5 to me is the END of the rams 7th year but more importantly the BEGINNING of his eighth year. The horn formed in between this 7th ring and the skull was formed after the rams seventh year of life had completed and his eighth year had begun. We all know that the rings are formed in the winter and that sheep are born in the spring. If he had a visible 8th annuli he would actually be 9 because each ring marks not only the end of a year but the beginning of another. The eighth anulli would mark the end of eight years of life and the beginning of his ninth year. I think the confusion lies in that people think that the first prominent ring shows the ram "just turned" three as opposed to he has aleady lived three full years and is starting his fourth year. If you look at the diagram again and count the first prominant ring as a marker for the end of three years and the beggining of the fourth year it will make sense. This was supposed to be the quickest and easiest way to age a ram in the field. Supposed to being the key words LOL

Going back to the "Let's Talk Sheep" thread, BHB and I cautioned newer sheep hunters about using the method of identifying the "first prominent ring" and calling it "3yrs". I mentioned that there are some rams that have a very prominent 1 1/2 yr annuli(like this ram). This method works for seasoned sheep hunters who know what they are looking at and know where to expect to see that ring.

I, too, got 6 1/2yrs on this ram.

If you still have a tooth, send it in. There is a place in the states that does it for a small fee and the results are yours...not our province's.

SSS

[mark4]

I am not saying you guy's are wrong and I am right. I know both SSS and BCrams know what they are talking about. There seems to be two groups of thought on aging sheep. I have heard that even inspectors themselves can get in heated debates about it. It's too bad that it seems to be such a confusing topic. After hearing others views I would have to say that counting rings is not the way to go- tips past the bridge of the nose or nothing. I wonder how consistent the inspectors are- and if some guy's have lost legal sheep and others have kept illegal sheep. There shouldn't be any confusion but there definitely is. Some guy's say don't bother with all the half year stuff and six month ring etc.. and others diligently look for rings in between the tip and the first prominent ring. Our province needs to make clear what is a legal sheep and what isn't because it seems to be a little grey - or I wouldn't have passed the inspection and had him plugged if he is only 6.5. The inspector and I both figured he turned 8 this spring.

[BCrams]

Here's one profile from aging.

Now some of you will be like "how did I determine the 1/2 year to start" ......

Stay tuned ...... its easily shown in another photo to come ...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/100_1689.jpg


Here is the other side of the horn. It should be pretty clearcut.

There should be 'no' debate with inspectors interpretations of aging ram horns.

Could you provide the name / person who did the inspection of your ram.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/BCrams/ramage.jpg

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Since the province decided to save a little money and contract out the compulsary inspection jobs, there's is a tonne of inconsistancy. Some are very good at what they do and others, not so good:?. Hell, even some of the CO's who used to do it were not that good.

I was questioning a seasoned sheep biologist on how much horn growth a bighorn ram can put on in his first six months(since the winters don't start as early and are shorter than thinhorn country) as all he could tell me(for absolute certain) is that the only way to confirm that a ram is only 6 months of age is the tricuspid tooth(Period). Body and horn size can vary greatly. He could give you a opinion on how old he "thought" a ram was based on body and horn size but it would only be his "opinion".

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

Going back to the "Let's Talk Sheep" thread, BHB and I cautioned newer sheep hunters about using the method of identifying the "first prominent ring" and calling it "3yrs". I mentioned that there are some rams that have a very prominent 1 1/2 yr annuli(like this ram). This method works for seasoned sheep hunters who know what they are looking at and know where to expect to see that ring.

Yep... What a shining example! If you know what to expect for growth the method works as mentioned. If you're trying to make an obviously illegal ram legal this method won't help you. Without even counting annuli this is an obviously underage and illegal ram.


If you still have a tooth, send it in. There is a place in the states that does it for a small fee and the results are yours...not our province's.

I think this ram should be in possession of the province and then placed in the WSSBC horn curl program. The inspector who aged this ram should clearly not be aging rams...

Carl

[trapntrav]

well, as my first post here, I hate to say it but that ram should be illegal ! Counting rings from a photo is the worst way to age a ram but this one is so far away from being legal it's not funny. I too age it at 6.5, at best it's 7.5 if there is an annuli at the hairline (possible but unlikely). IF he was inspected and plugged as you say then it doesn't really matter does it! Can you show a photo of the inspection sheet (minus the location killed and other sensitive info of course) that should tell us what the inspector was thinking.

[bigwhiteys]

IF he was inspected and plugged as you say then it doesn't really matter does it! Can you show a photo of the inspection sheet (minus the location killed and other sensitive info of course) that should tell us what the inspector was thinking.

Yes... It does matter. And anyone who calls themselves a serious sheep hunter should not have hesitated in calling this ram exactly what it is... Now the real question is what is anyone going to do about it...?

Carl

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

I think you talked yourself into believing or hoping this was a legal ram ,you glassed him for over an hour at a close distance so that alone shows you had a lot of doubt.Being inexperinced at hunting sheep made you get caught up in the moment and you made a mistake.I have made mistakes in the field also and I have tried to learn from these errors.I think your an honest guy and respect your passion for the hunt,you are not trying to get away with anything and you have been very upfront.I will also use this thread as learning tool and I wish you a great hunting season .

[BCrams]

The inspector and I both figured he turned 8 this spring.

In this case - you both 'figured' wrong.

Mistakes happen, especially when caught up in the moment and on your first ever sheep hunt.

Your mistake was 'trying' to age a ram. Trying to age the ram as 'legal' at 80 yards for over an hour should have anyone clueing in that, "I shouldn't shoot this ram." Aging sheep is something no sheep hunter should do unless they're proven to be good at it, have seen a lot of sheep and know what to look for. I know of a couple seasoned sheep hunters with sheep under their belts that have passed up big rams which were not full curl b/c of the discrepancy of aging sheep under field conditions.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

If anyone is going to use Big Whiteys/Willy442 method of aging rams there are two key points.

1-You must know where to find the "first prominant ring"(for which to call 3) and the best way to be confident in that is by first learning how to age a ram as BCrams has shown.

2-you must stop counting rings at the last visible annuli. Not the base.

If you use BCrams method you can continue counting to the base of the horn. The two methods vary in that BW's method calls the first prominent ring 3yrs and BRrams' method calls the same ring 2 1/2. They both give the same results. Add here...subtract there.

I'm certainly not dishing one method or the other but make sure you stick to one and know how to do it properly... know where to start counting and where to stop.

I think two errors may have occured here. Calling the 1 1/2 yr annuli "3 yrs" and continuing to count to the base??

SSS

[Dirty]

At best this thread shows that there is a lot of variance in counting rings. The only sure bet is a tip that absolutely breaks the bridge of the nose. Although this ram has stirred a bit of controversy about counting rings, it was inspected and plugged. Let's leave it at that. I strongly advise Mark4 against posting the inspection sheet. If you do intend to post the inspection sheet, blank out your name, the inspection location, and the inspectors name. If shit is being stirred like this it could affect more people than yourself Mark4.

[jml11]

This is the method I use to field judge sheep, it is pretty much the same as that described by BCrams but uses a slighlty different counting system with no half rings. Since the back of each ring is the transition from winter to spring this is also the sheep's birthday therefore I count each ring as one full year. You can add half for this years growth if you like to get the actual age. Using this system, for me to shoot a ram based on age I would have to see 8 distinct rings to call it an 8 year old. I would probably actually want a couple more for insurance before I pulled the triger.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e397/jflex48/100_1688.jpg

[NaStY]

Well it would seem that it is what it is. Yes it is our responsibility to make sure that what WE shoot is legal. It appears that it was inspected and passed. Legal or not, it wasn't the intension of the hunter to hide anything or deceive anyone either. So lets not judge the hunter on what he decides is legal or not. After all it was inspected and plugged.

How many pics have we seen of animals that were legal? or illegal for that matter and all we said was (good meat on that one). Sows being shot with milk still coming out and taken in for rugs ( ive seen it).

I agree that this is a bad situation, but let the hunter make the final decision and leave it at that..........

[bayou]

Well it now seems safe to reply to this thread, judging from the pictures(which are quit clear) I to age this ram the same as the other sheep hunters and can find no way to make it a legal 8 year old ram I have seen rams inspected in B.C. ,yukon and NWT but have never heard of any one calling the first ring as the 3 year ring. I to would be interested in knowing where this ram was inspected and see no harm in that for it is quit possible that the person may not be that knowledgable since inspections have been farmed out.
Since the farming out of inspections there has always been some contraversary with 1 the people arent knowledgable enough about different speices, 2 they are friends with the hunters so let things slide and 3 leak out info.
One other thing I find a little strange here is if the head pictures are taken in your home there would be a fair bit of time before you got it to a freezer from the time you shot it so hopefully yo have not lost the cape.

[jml11]

While it seems the issue was that the hunter took an illegal ram, the main concern is that it passed the inspection. I think if anyone is being 'called out' it's the inspector, not the hunter. Having illegal animals pass inspection has potentially significant repercutions on game management and hunting strategies!! My opinion.

[bighornbob]

I too only get 6 1/2 years for the sheep no matter how you slice it. If the horns are plugged as the hunter says they are then the inpection dude is at fault. Its not a science by any means and there are specific rules that have to followed. I have talked to one of the inspections guys about a bighorn I was trying to shoot at Spences. I told him he was not above the bridge of the nose but I would have shot him on age (if he was legal).

The inspector told me to make sure he had 8 annuli or it would be taken away. I told him the ram probably broomed off a few of the years and he said it did not matter. The inspectors are told that the all sheep have to have 8 annuli regardless of whats been broomed off for them to make a call. If its broomed and does not have 8 annuli a biologist looks at it then to see if he thinks its legal. So based on information the inspectors are supposed to use, the ram was not properly inspected becuase the inspector did not follow the rules they are given. Its the inspector that should have the contract taken away.

BHB

[Kody94]

I have the ram aged at 6.5 years.

(I just didn't want to say anything earlier).

I would love for someone to tell me where the extra year is.

Better yet - I would love to meet the guy who did the aging of this ram and explain how he ages the sheep he inspects. He should not be inspecting rams.

+1, on all counts.

[bigwhiteys]

In all honesty this has been a great educational thread... It looks like Mark4 had nothing but the best of intentions on his hunt and harvest BUT it's become a sticky situation now...

I think the best bet is for Mark4 to call the local CO's and have that ram re-evaluated... There is a lot of people paying attention to this thread right now and I think it would be the right (only) thing to do...

Carl

[NaStY]

He has already done the right thing bye getting it inspected. He shouldn't be on trial here nor should anyone be telling what he should or shouldn't do. It is the person that inspected and said it was good should be the one responsible here.

If it was me, i would phone and let the CO's figure it out from there. But thats me.... I also wouldn't go hunting for them without some one that truly knows what to look for. Again thats me....

I for one say good on you Mark4 for a hunt that you did. You seemed to ask alot of questions before the hunt and used the knowledge you were given. Its just too bad it has come to this......

[bigwhiteys]

If it was me, i would phone and let the CO's figure it out from there. But thats me....

And that's exactly correct... That ram needs to be re-evaluated. It looks a lot better if it's under your own steam then having the powers that be try and find you...


It is the person that inspected and said it was good should be the one responsible here.

Anybody who thinks this way shouldn't be hunting sheep... period! I agree the inspector should be reprimanded in some way but when you make the decision to pull the trigger you make the decision to deal with the repurcussions of your actions if there are any. You don't put the legality of your animal in the inspectors hands...

Carl

[willy442]

If anyone is going to use Big Whiteys/Willy442 method of aging rams there are two key points.

1-You must know where to find the "first prominant ring"(for which to call 3) and the best way to be confident in that is by first learning how to age a ram as BCrams has shown.

2-you must stop counting rings at the last visible annuli. Not the base.

If you use BCrams method you can continue counting to the base of the horn. The two methods vary in that BW's method calls the first prominent ring 3yrs and BRrams' method calls the same ring 2 1/2. They both give the same results. Add here...subtract there.

I'm certainly not dishing one method or the other but make sure you stick to one and know how to do it properly... know where to start counting and where to stop.

I think two errors may have occured here. Calling the 1 1/2 yr annuli "3 yrs" and continuing to count to the base??

SSS

SSS; I,m sure you don't want to get into a major discussion on this topic with me, and yes I agree that if you are going to use this method you must know where to start and stop counting. This is also true with any method you choose to use. The thing I fail to see you or any of the so called experienced sheep on here mention, is there are also other tell tale signs that are much more obvious from a distance. Lets use the ram in this thread as a example (with out judging Mark and his decision to shoot). The first tell tale sign to me would have been the general over all shape and size of the horn, by this I'm talking the light weight and the smooth front edge of the horn in the area of the bases. Both of these are tell tale signs of a young imature ram, once seen and recognized the process of aging really won't come into play. The other sign if you are going to age is the fresh growth which is shown in the horn color again in the area of the bases. If you look at the photo's of this ram it becomes clear again by the amount of fresh growth, that he is a young ram.

The post you put in about the ministry saving money and the quality of measures being questionable is really disappointing to me coming from another sheep hunter. My point being ( if we are going after one of these animals, the responsibility remains with each and everyone of us to be competent in the judging of a legal animal ). Until such time a person should not be pulling the trigger on one.

Mark. I congradulate you on the effort you put forth, but it would be in your best interest to take your horns and cape in and have the issue resolved asap. You will find the ministry will be more co operative in dealing with your honest mistake.

jml,11. I age your ram at 8 years of age, if I was able to post a photo like BC Rams it would be easy to show you. Congratulations on a nice mature Ram. We see far to many 6 & 7 year olds shot by eager uneducated Sheep Hunters. It might be in everyones best interest if a well organized seminar on aging and judging Sheep was a manditory part of the licencing requirement.

Willy

[BCrams]

It might be in everyones best interest if a well organized seminar on aging and judging Sheep was a manditory part of the licencing requirement.


While many will disagree, I do think we need to be more proactive and implement something along these lines to a point where it will not deter hunters from pursuing sheep.

[daycort]

i was thinking the same thing as willy on the horn shape an texture. From paying attention from BW and SSS BCrams and willy posts and aging method the outcome is still the same on this particular ram.

I was shown the same way and though I may not be as expierenced as those mentioned above my count came out the same.

I would like to see some more education on aging sheep. I think the only safe way is to make sure is if it is full curl, unless you have mega experience aging sheep by counting annuli.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

SSS; I,m sure you don't want to get into a major discussion on this topic with me, and yes I agree that if you are going to use this method you must know where to start and stop counting. This is also true with any method you choose to use. The thing I fail to see you or any of the so called experienced sheep on here mention, is there are also other tell tale signs that are much more obvious from a distance. Lets use the ram in this thread as a example (with out judging Mark and his decision to shoot). The first tell tale sign to me would have been the general over all shape and size of the horn, by this I'm talking the light weight and the smooth front edge of the horn in the area of the bases. Both of these are tell tale signs of a young imature ram, once seen and recognized the process of aging really won't come into play. The other sign if you are going to age is the fresh growth which is shown in the horn color again in the area of the bases. If you look at the photo's of this ram it becomes clear again by the amount of fresh growth, that he is a young ram.

The post you put in about the ministry saving money and the quality of measures being questionable is really disappointing to me coming from another sheep hunter. My point being ( if we are going after one of these animals, the responsibility remains with each and everyone of us to be competent in the judging of a legal animal ). Until such time a person should not be pulling the trigger on one.



Willy

My first impressions of this ram(without counting annuli) was that he was young....but it wasn't something I would put in a post. As most have said Mark is a very honest and polite fella...and I certainly did not want to take anything away from his experience. I'm sure others felt the same way.
Just because it wasn't stated on here doesn't mean it wasn't thought of.

I never said it was the sole responsibility of the inspector to make sure we do our parts in making sure. That's obvious that the responsibility lies with the hunter...but that doesn't mean that they are not responsible for doing their jobs properly.

As well, I have never claimed to be an experienced sheep ager. I thought that was pretty obvious when I recently erroneous aged Flinch's ram.

Back in the "Let's Talk Sheep" thread I cautioned the less experienced hunters against aging rams the way you do yet you stated it was hard to mix up the first most prominent ring with the 1 1/2yr annuli.
Was I right or was I right??:neutral:

Back to your regularily scheduled programming...........

SSS

[StoneChaser]

While many will disagree, I do think we need to be more proactive and implement something along these lines to a point where it will not deter hunters from pursuing sheep.

I would like to see an education program implemented focusing on sheep management strategies w/regards to ram selection but not purely on aging sheep.

I'd also like to see a little more done along the same theme with Mtn Goats and the importance of billy harvest/identification (I know a little imformation is already out there, but it could be improved upon).

As for harvesting a ram based on annuli and not curl, I feel it is best left to the experienced, and do not want to see it promoted or encouraged....

I've aged enough rams on walls, photos, and in the field to be confident in my ability, and hunt sheep by one simple rule:

If a ram isn't 9+ yrs old, &/or full curl....pass him up!

[BCRiverBoater]

Proper aging of sheep is a very big part of sheep hunting and this education needs to be passed on. Not everyone grew up with grandparents and parents that were sheep hunters. These new sheep hunters need to get the experience passed down to them some how. For my first few hunts I would only go on breaking the nose. I would only age the ram to see if he is a mature ram. I feel no one should be shooting rams under 8 at any time if at possible. Sheep conservation requires only mature rams to be killed. I like the see 9-10+ rams being killed. The only we will ensure we have nice genetics and keep the larger rams around for our children and grandchildren to hunt is to let the younger rams mature before harvest.

I have passed up numerous younger and smaller rams over the years and know many other people who do not have a ram on the wall yet because the refuse to shoot an immature ram. All rams harvested are trophies but I look at it from a conservation point of view. I want all my rams to be 8+ but preferably 9-10 years of age at a minimum.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I've aged enough rams on walls, photos, and in the field to be confident in my ability, and hunt sheep by one simple rule:

If a ram isn't 9+ yrs old, &/or full curl....pass him up!

Very sound advice.

SSS

[jml11]

jml,11. I age your ram at 8 years of age, if I was able to post a photo like BC Rams it would be easy to show you. Congratulations on a nice mature Ram. We see far to many 6 & 7 year olds shot by eager uneducated Sheep Hunters. It might be in everyones best interest if a well organized seminar on aging and judging Sheep was a manditory part of the licencing requirement.

Willy


I would agree with you, the inspector aged him at 7.5 as he wasn't confident that the annuli just above the hairline was a a real annuli (or maybe he was generous on the lamp tip length??). This ram was my partners; however, I also shot a ram that was with this one, which was aged at 8.5. It has an annuli just above the hairline as well which was covered by the hair and only visible once caped. In his last half year he only added about 8mm of horn; however the year before he added about 5-6 cm. They obvioulsy really slow down growth at that magical 8th year. I wish I had a caped out photo to show this.

[Kody94]

My first impressions of this ram(without counting annuli) was that he was young....but it wasn't something I would put in a post. As most have said Mark is a very honest and polite fella...and I certainly did not want to take anything away from his experience. I'm sure others felt the same way.
Just because it wasn't stated on here doesn't mean it wasn't thought of.

SSS

Ditto.

I for one refrained from posting on this thread at first, mainly for that reason. It looked too young to me and clearly doesn't break the nose, but without a side shot, you know....its hard to say, and yet hard to honestly and genuinely pump the guy up about his ram...

I think most here avoided saying that it just plain looks immature as it more likely to be taken as an insult than just commenting on the technical aspects of correctling aging the ram. Mark seems like a really nice, honest dude that had a great hunt....I am sure many people grappled with how to bring this up in a way that would minimize any detraction from his experience!

[Kody94]

In his last half year he only added about 8mm of horn; however the year before he added about 5-6 cm. They obvioulsy really slow down growth at that magical 8th year. I wish I had a caped out photo to show this.

It happens occasionally for sure. Depends on the health of the animal and/or the availability of good feed. In my experience though, it doesn't seem to be tied to the 8th year at all.

[NaStY]

I say lock this thread. Let Mark deal with it on his own terms.

Start a new thread sticky it and get the guys that know how to age rams, post there pics so that the next new hunter has a better idea what to look for. Even if it turns into a mature debate. It will give us all some thing more to learn.........

[daycort]

I have passed up numerous younger and smaller rams over the years and know many other people who do not have a ram on the wall yet because the refuse to shoot an immature ram.

I feel the same. Look at the ram in my photo gallery. Makes full curl but is only 7. Let him grow up and maybe in 2 years I will go back in there and try to find him. I really only want 2 stones. One nice big mature ram and one with my bow.

[Kody94]

I've aged enough rams on walls, photos, and in the field to be confident in my ability, and hunt sheep by one simple rule:

If a ram isn't 9+ yrs old, &/or full curl....pass him up!


Very sound advice.

SSS

With the potential exception of a HEAVY, broomed off, obvious old-timer, I won't count rings at all until the sheep is on the ground. Ie. either I am comfortable its full curl, or I start looking for the next one. And unfortunately, it shows in my success rate on Bighorns in particular. :D

Cheers,
4ster

[BCrams]

I would like to see an education program implemented focusing on sheep management strategies w/regards to ram selection but not purely on aging sheep.

I'd also like to see a little more done along the same theme with Mtn Goats and the importance of billy harvest/identification (I know a little imformation is already out there, but it could be improved upon).

As for harvesting a ram based on annuli and not curl, I feel it is best left to the experienced, and do not want to see it promoted or encouraged....

I've aged enough rams on walls, photos, and in the field to be confident in my ability, and hunt sheep by one simple rule:

If a ram isn't 9+ yrs old, &/or full curl....pass him up!

Very good advice regarding 9+ yrs. I know SC has put in his time and knows his sheep. I know when he pulls the trigger on a ram, its going to be a very good mature ram.

[BCRiverBoater]

I feel the same. Look at the ram in my photo gallery. Makes full curl but is only 7. Let him grow up and maybe in 2 years I will go back in there and try to find him. I really only want 2 stones. One nice big mature ram and one with my bow.

I agree with you 100%. I passed up a few that were borderline at their nose years ago. Then I changed my mind and said I wanted one on the wall then I would only shoot a larger ram than my last. The last few years I said I would only shoot a larger mature ram. I am looking for 165+ ram. I am willing to wait a life time to get one. If I come across a beautiful ram that really grabs my eye I will have a long hard decision to make. But if not I am holding out for a mature ram with some weight. I have lasted this long without shooting the first legal ram I see so I have no plans to start now.

I strongly believe conservation is the most important thing with sheep and especially more than ever. I urge all sheep hunters to pass up all rams that are 8 and younger. By 8 mean showing 6-7 rings. If we all see 8 rings before we shoot then we will only be taking 9+ year old rams and thus ensuring our kids and grand kids have sheep numbers that will still allow harvest.

[guest]

This has turned into quite a mess for Mark4 which I am sure he did not intend. Counting annuli in the field is a tough go, hell even the so called experts can't agree at times.
I do agree that the inspector needs to be brought up to speed and make a possible wrong right. For Mark4, it's a tough learning curve. I too when I first saw the post of the Ram it appeared young but do not want to judge by putting something in a post. I was maybe too careful in bagging my first Ram. I was scared S--tless to kill an illegal Ram by counting annuli
I know now I turned down many a Ram, because I had not viewed them square from the side. It took me 9 trips over 12 years till I found an obvious ram, one past the nose. A good example of a Ram that makes the age but not full curl is the Urses Ram also posted here in another thread. Lets all not forget .... it is the hunters responsibility to be sure it's legal.
Mark4 I do feel bad for you, you like many others before you might have made a mistake, but that's up to the EXPERTS!
C/T

[mark4]

Well guy's I don't know what to think. I just reviewed the inspection sheet and I am baffled. There is another annuli right near the hair line- if you push the hair out of the way you can see it and the inspector has it recorded on the sheet right where it is, but I still don't get it- how could that sheep have another anulli so close to his skull, if winter was like six months ago ? Doesn't make any sense to me -and even with this annuli at the base, he still might not be legal - darn it- I'll admit it I am a little confused - can anyone explain this to me ?? I realize I may have made a mistake-and if I made a mistake then the inspector made a mistake too, But I don't really want to crucify him or feed him to the wolves either. He is an older fellow that is a certified Boone and Crocket and Pope and Young scorer who also works for the ministry of environment. I am not going to send out his name because I don't think that is the right thing to do- I will not shift the blame onto the poor old guy who may have made a mistake just like me. I swear to god the ram is inspected and plugged- I will send copies to the friends I trust on this forum. I realize that you guy's mean well so I won't take this stuff personal- I don't want immature sheep harvested either. Not by me - not by anyone. If it somehow saves this from happenning in the future to another sheep hunter- not to mention the rams being shot before their time- then mabye it will end up being a good thing overall for future sheep hunting in BC -even if I end up losing this ram. If he's 6.5 like all you guy's are saying then he's 6.5 and I have to face the music. What is losing one ram if it possibly saves hundreds in the future by better educating new sheep hunters or possibly getting rid of the whole eight years of age thing and sticking to bridge of the nose for all rams mabye- ??? I am trying to stay positive but I will admit I feel like crap about the whole thing. I will never EVER count rings again- I obviously need to stick with the bridge of the nose method- and I will.

[happygilmore]

Rehgardless of the annuli dont they age with a tooth?:confused:

[happygilmore]

sorry I started all this mark, honestly just wanted practice counting annuli... we need a new thread post your pics of your ram and the age.

[anglo-saxon]

Mark: I'm just a newbie on here and I'm certainly no sheep hunter, but just from what you posted on here about this story you sound like an entirely ethical guy to me. The way you waited and took your time before the shot was excellent (and you told it so well, too!).

From a layperson's viewpoint here, I would say you have certainly exercised due diligence. If you or the fellow you took it to were a hair off, I'd say that's life. It wasn't like you didn't do your best. Don't beat yourself up, mate! Best left alone now, I reckon.

[happygilmore]

All you hunters who have been attacking marks trophy should be ashamed of yourselves! 6.5, 7, 8, I feel sick to my stomach for asking mark to post the pics, you have managed to take something he was proud of and rightfully so, and soured it... the inspectors word is the last, mark was right whatever you think... maybe you should have kept it to yourself.:mad:

[shoot to kill]

well there is a positive side, with the money you will save by not having to do a mount you will be able to go sheep hunting next year :shock::rolleyes:

[livingston]

I don't think anybody is on the attack, they just don't want any sheep on the younger side of 8 yrs old shot by people not counting annuli properly. And for the inspector to not pick up on it is not good.

As a new sheep hunter as well I rely on my partner who has more experience at counting annuli to judge sheep. If I was to hunt sheep by myself I would be very cautious of shooting a younger ram if it wasn't full curl.

[willy442]

All you hunters who have been attacking marks trophy should be ashamed of yourselves! 6.5, 7, 8, I feel sick to my stomach for asking mark to post the pics, you have managed to take something he was proud of and rightfully so, and soured it... the inspectors word is the last, mark was right whatever you think... maybe you should have kept it to yourself.:mad:

Happy Gilmore; No one is attacking Mark on this issue. We all know he was out with the best of intentions and thought he had done everthing right. The law is what it is and mistakes are made. The ball on this ram was most likely already rolling long before it was posted here. One thing that must be realized is during the early August sheep hunts there are alot of eyes out in the hills all in sheep country (nothing else is open). Sheep habitat and especially that of Rams is not all that large and most have been scouted. Very often others have watched you pull the trigger. Also remember the harvest of younger Rams can affect qouta's to the area GO. There fore any illegal activity is usually reported and tracked. I'm also sure that this site is monitored by some involved with the Fish and Wildlife.

The correct thing to do is take the Ram in for remeasure and deal with what ever happens. I can tell you from past obsrvation with these kinds of issue's, the ministry is alot more approachable if you are up front, than if they are required to come looking, a wrong move now could cost you your hunting privileges for some time.

On the matter of aging sheep it is an absolute must that one under stands the judging of mature animals. The steep rocky crags and cliffs they frequent, usually never gives a hunter a good side on view from the same elevation. This leaves a situation where mistakes are very often made and rams are passed up with the tip clearing the nose, when looking down on them. Looking up gives the opposite effect in making the Ram actually look longer than he is. Due to this it is still required frequently to determine age. When we start talking about how the annuli should be counted, problems also arise depending on time of year and if the Ram is broomed or lamb tipped. The easiest method for myself was the one posted calling the first prominent ring the three year annuli. When determining this it must be remembered that the actual first year lamb tip is very short ( 1.5 to 2 inches) in mature rams this ring is most often not visible from a distance. The 1.5 ring is usually also not easy to see from a distance through optics. It is most often not an indented ring but a slightly protruding ring from the horn and in no way will it be resembled with the appearance and clarity of the annuli after the 3 rd or 4th years. The 2.5 ring will very often be the first ring countable from a distance and usually appears slightly less prominent than the 3.5 to lets say for example 7.5 year. The ring I refer to is the first prominent dark ring that appears with the same clarity as the remaining mid life years. If counted correctly as the 3.5 year it then becomes very simple to continue counting up. If once you are near the bases and only have 6 or 7 rings counted, be careful.
The draw backs I found with trying to count out from the bases are; These annuli are always very close together and on later hunts very often covered with winter hair making the count at best an estimate in many situations. Also if a ram is heavily broomed you get out to the earlier years and you are again guessing. The method of counting from the tip in usually allows you to see the third year annuli even of most thin horn broomed rams. Starting from the third ring if identified correctly also very often allows you to count up to eight rings in mature rams prior to getting into the tightly compacted annuli around the base, which is often covered on later hunts and usually where most mistakes are made. Example being if the ram is 10 or 11 you should be up to eight rings very clearly and well short of the base.
Hope this helps clarify some of the issues of aging for those interested.

[calvin L]

Mark 4 your last post again show's you are a stand up kind of guy . I will be glad to drink a beer any time with you . .Keep your chin up I now a very good sheep hunter that also has made a mistake . It will all get worked out in the wash Have a great season .

calvin L

[BCRiverBoater]

I would also like to say you seem like a very stand up kind of a guy and I mean no hard feelings either. You have had the balls to stay in the thread and talk about it and ask questions. I see this thread as educational for all sheep hunters new and old.

No one is pointing any fingers at you what so ever. You saw a ram and you honestly thought it was legal so you shot it. You were not hiding anything and got it inspected and posted it on here.

My only concern is in the inspection process. That is what is confusing me. If you get another person to age it and it is 8 please let me know.

Like I mentioned earlier a buddy of mine had a ram taken away for the exact same thing. It happens and one deals with it and goes on. Nothing was done to him except he had to cancel his tag which he did when it was shit anyways. It is no different then people I know that shot a 5 point elk or 3 point mule deer. No ethical hunter does it on purpose and tries to hide it. It is only the poachers that do it on purpose but they are not taking to the inspection offices.

If nothing else this has brought up some good discussion on aging and sheep conservation which I never get tired of reading. Education never hurt anyone.

I would sit and have a drink anytime as well and I am always willing to share advice or stories. If ever around FSJ get a hold of me. Good luck in all your future hunting and do not let this get you down. IF anything this should be getting you fired up for next years sheep hunt. I feel sorry for any old heavy horned bugger that walks on the same mountain as you.

Good luck!

[happygilmore]

Happy Gilmore; No one is attacking Mark on this issue. .

never said he was under attack talking about his trophy! something he was proud of... now he might not be, it has been overshadowed by this thread. No one from the ministry is going to question an inspectors work based on this site and some pics.
Most people know who have hunted sheep how hard it is to judge a sheep by the annuli, that's why I wanted practice...


For all you experts, how does the mininstry judge a ram that is broomed off alot? you cannot count annuli? so if someone shoots a ram that is broomed off but it turns out to be 9, is he wrong? surely not legally, the ministry said it was 9. Ethically would be the only arguement anyone could make, so lets drop the requests for him to take his ram back in? ******ed.
I could just see the look on the inspectors face... you want me to do what?

[Gateholio]

No sheep expert here... but in the regs (whichis not the law) they say "8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth annuli"

I suppose you coudl pull a tooth and make a case, I'm not sure how they would deal with that...Depends what they want- Only 8+ year old rams shot, or only rams that have 8+ annuli shot...

Also not sure, but I kinda doubt that anyone is going to chase after an already inspected ram because of some people judging pics via internet pics.

Whole thing is very confusing....:?:

[bigwhiteys]

No one from the ministry is going to question an inspectors work based on this site and some pics.

You are making a mistake... People are trying to help you.

Carl

[happygilmore]

No sheep expert here... but in the regs (whichis not the law) they say "8 years as evidenced by yearly horn growth annuli"



Also not sure, but I kinda doubt that anyone is going to chase after an already inspected ram because of some people judging pics via internet pics.



Thanks for the regs gate


You are making a mistake... People are trying to help you.

Carl:?:

[troutseeker]

Mark4, congratulations on your trophy. You made sure of what you shot, and it passed inspection. That's it, period. Your ram's horns have been plugged, he is legal. Anyone judging your trophy from pictures is only making educated (or not) guesses. An authorized inspector saw the bone in person, I would think that is more reliable than denizens of the Internet.

Get it mounted and display it proudly. And hopefully, end of bickering!

Troutseeker

[srupp]

hmmm first of all its GREAT to finally see Stonechaser post again..missed his salient points..and of course we do indeed have a expert here in BCRAMS..i have learned so much from Stonechaser Deaddog and BCrams..

I have passed up many a ram in the past 16 years of trying were some legal perhaps..perhaps not..and in the process I went from a young man to a old man and still cant gurantee I know age identification at any distance hence still stoneless..but still trying..better optics will only help determain full curl or not..

I appreciate Carl and the rest trying to educate us..it is a very important issue we are dealing with...and a very dicy situation for the hunter...

It doesnt matter what I think or my opinion on what is best "now" as its not my call..you would probably be surprised by what i would or wouldnt do chuckle..

I do want to thank Greg, Carl et all for the education and important information that has been passed on...


Stoneless Steven

[scoot]

I have passed up many a ram in the past 16 years of trying were some legal perhaps..perhaps not..and in the process I went from a young man to a old man and still cant gurantee I know age identification at any distance hence still stoneless..but still trying..better optics will only help determain full curl or not..
Stoneless Steven

come one steve! your not an old man. yet:-P

Thanks for the profile pics folks along with the anuli breakdown.
Congrats on the sheep Mark! holy Jellous, can't wait!
Perhaps if I am lucky enough to shoot one, I should hold on Pics:?

[David Heitsman]

Way to go man.

The hiking and the pack out ensure that that will always be a trophy.

I think dropping the trigger on that ram was a calculated risk that you were willing to take. I could not as I have been at the wildlife auction
and seen horns bigger, perhaps even older than those that have been confiscated and that would really be heartbreaking. I know because I have lost an animal that way.

I don't call him 8 years old but who cares what I or anyone else thinks
as we are not the official inspector and he / she sees something I didn't.

Get him mounted, display him proudly for generations in your family to enjoy.

Three weeks more of cardio bootcamp for me and then I'm off as well to
try and bring back a ram.

[mark4]

It is so important to get this straightened out and get BC's sheep hunters educated. Big whitey's, Willy 442, If I rent the building out of my own pocket AND do the advertising would you guy's do a seminar for the rest of us BC hunters ?? We can use my ram as a shining example of what not to shoot. Bring as many diagrams, pictures, charts, video's whatever you have. This won't be a fundraiser for sheep habitat or anything like that. The sole purpose will be to educate everyone the same way. I will make damn sure that the building is filled with hunters, Wildlife biologists, Inspectors, and CO's. We need you guy's to straighten us all out. Please bring any paper work, degrees, certificates pertaining to wildlife biology you have because there will arguments etc.. and we want to make sure you have the formal training in wildlife biology to back up what you are teaching everyone. Then we can have everyone on the same page and this will hopefully never happen again. Please private message me to set up a time and place, It's up to us sheep hunters to educate ourselves. I am so glad we have you guy's to fall back on in a crisis. For me it was time to shit or get off the pot- now it's your turn. Help us out.

[Dirty]

Mark you seem like a very honest person and you are not trying to evade anything. Personally, I would get the information off of Stone Sheep Steve to send a tooth for aging before making any rash decisions. Sometimes pictures are deceiving and maybe there is something that the inspector and yourself saw that we cannot see in the pictures. It seems like you intentions are to make this right and I commend you for this. If anything this whole thread has taught me the pitfalls of aging sheep. I will for one only shoot a sheep that is 9+ or over the bridge.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

There was talk about putting on an aging seminar at the WSSBC weekend.
I don't know what became of the idea. Maybe someone else knows??


SSS

[BIGHUNTERFISH]

Mark,
I dont think you have to beat yourself up or keep stressing out about this situation,if you have the ram reinspected there will not be any repercussions for you,and you have our support in this matter.You probably made a mistake you regret but I guarntee you will never make a mistake like this again.I know when I go looking for a Stone sheep it will have to be a good full curl or a big broomed off ram before I will pull the trigger.I think a good rule for most people that go on their first sheep hunt is to go with someone that has experience,it can be dangerous country and making sure your ram is legal is crucial,as well has properly caping your ram.

[horshur]

how exactly will the Ram being aprehended by the ministry bring it back????

It's already dead!!!!

what is it like a tip bucket???....all the auctioned underage sheep a bonus for goverment workers or somthin?

gettin it reinspected and then took away would accomplish nothin for sheep.

[bigwhiteys]

how exactly will the Ram being aprehended by the ministry bring it back????

It won't but it's the law.


gettin it reinspected and then took away would accomplish nothin for sheep.

You are wrong... This has revealed a major flaw in the CI process that is going to need to be addressed. It WILL be good for sheep. This was a public wakeup call.

Carl

[David Heitsman]

Dare I say that a liberal any ram LEH system would alleviate these questions /issues?

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Dare I say that a liberal any ram LEH system would alleviate these questions /issues?

Obviously, you realize that would also come with LEH???:?

SSS

[srupp]

I came home after a 14 hr nite shift to watch this post carefully..IT DOES point out how dangerous it is to shoot any ram based on anuli..rings or anything other than full curl /break the bridge of the nose..we all cant have the luxury of Greg or Carl or kevin or Scott or Stonechaser or the very limited amount of knowlegable individuals to field age a ram..(I am holding out for a full curl plus pig) hell even THE "EXPERT" sitting in an office somewhere looking at the skull and horns f&^%%& up...

When I saw the original post I didnt "question " the age because the Ministries expert clleared it..SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESH.

Good luck buddy...I APPRECIATE the SOLOMON like decision you face..

Steven

[bighornbob]

The problem with aging sheep is its very subjective, is it a annuli or false annuli, first prominant ring is 3 1/2 etc etc. Even in Willy's explanation he says the first most prominant ring is 3 1/2 but when he ages Mark's sheep the first most prominant ring is not 3 1/2:confused:. Thats becuase he is taking other things into consideration and using 30 plus years of stone sheep hunting experience.

When Bigwhite'ies (I think it was him) said he used the 3 1/2 rule and explained it, I cringed deep down knowing a young sheep was going to die based on this information. For him and Willy its fine they have looked over hundreds of rams and have the experience but for guys just starting out, using that rule leads to trouble. On Mark's sheep he counted the first most prominant ring as 3 1/2 and the ring he counted is the first most prominant becuase you see no others between it and the tip. An experienced hunter will know that ram will grow more then 5 inches of horn in 3 years but an inexperienced hunter may not know.

The aging of sheep comes from years of looking at rams, pictures, live sheep, and holding horns not from just some side views of a sheep. With just pictures you do not get a 3 dimenitional view. I find the easiest way of counting rings is following the ring all the way around the horn, which is tough on a live sheep.

You can not become remotely accurate at counting annuli just by looking at pictures. If you think you can I will give you the secret of beating Tiger Woods (drive the ball 300+ yards down the middle of the fairway, use an iron to drive to the green and put the ball into the cup repeat 17 more times.) Easy right.:roll:

The ageing of sheep correctly comes from years of looking at actual live sheep, sheep horns, holding the horns (fonding in my case:wink:), not by a diagram posted on the net.

BHB

[bigwhiteys]

When Bigwhite'ies (I think it was him) said he used the 3 1/2 rule and explained it, I cringed deep down knowing a young sheep was going to die based on this information. For him and Willy its fine they have looked over hundreds of rams and have the experience but for guys just starting out, using that rule leads to trouble.

You like to point fingers... First it's the inspectors fault, Now me and Willy? Make up your mind... Who's fault is it...?

Was it not cautioned in that very same thread to use common sense...? Several times I might add. If you have to sit there and make a ram legal he likely isn't (in this case)

There was alot more "meat" to those posts then the snippets you and SSS share. And there was plenty more clues given on determing general age of a ram without even looking at the Annuli. Had any of those clues been used this ram would likely still be eating grass on a mountainside somewhere.

Smooth Bases, Light Weight, NOT Full-Curl, Lots Of Fresh Growth, Hanging With Ewes and Lambs... All Clues this ram is likely immature, aging not even required. Have a look and move along.


The ageing of sheep correctly comes from years of looking at actual live sheep, sheep horns, holding the horns (fonding in my case:wink:), not by a diagram posted on the net.

I think you should tell that to some of the inspectors who likely completed a 1/2 day seminar on "how-to"... Now they are experts.

The bottom line is there is only 1 guy to blame in this entire situation and that's the fellow that pulled the trigger. He wanted to make that ram legal and no amount of field judging would have changed his mind. He needed someone on that mountain with him to say NO!

Carl

[Kechika]

The bottom line is Sheep are to precious of a resource to make a mistake with.Mark4 stepped up and admitted he made a mistake.Will the C.I do the same??This is a lesson to all sheep hunters especially newbies.Use this and learn

[bighornbob]

You like to point fingers... First it's the inspectors fault, Now me and Willy? Make up your mind... Who's fault is it...?

Was it not cautioned in that very same thread to use common sense...? Several times I might add. If you have to sit there and make a ram legal he likely isn't (in this case)

There was alot more "meat" to those posts then the snippets you and SSS share. And there was plenty more clues given on determing general age of a ram without even looking at the Annuli. Had any of those clues been used this ram would likely still be eating grass on a mountainside somewhere.

Smooth Bases, Light Weight, NOT Full-Curl, Lots Of Fresh Growth, Hanging With Ewes and Lambs... All Clues this ram is likely immature, aging not even required. Have a look and move along.



I think you should tell that to some of the inspectors who likely completed a 1/2 day seminar on "how-to"... Now they are experts.

The bottom line is there is only 1 guy to blame in this entire situation and that's the fellow that pulled the trigger. He wanted to make that ram legal and no amount of field judging would have changed his mind. He needed someone on that mountain with him to say NO!

Carl

Woe nelly. I am not blaming you or Willy for any of this or anyone else. All I said was the system you use works for you guys as you are guys are experienced. This experience is not gained by looking at 20 or 30 pictures with annuli marked out or reading about other clues of what makes a ram mature on the net or in any book. Thats what my whole point was.

BHB

[willy442]

It is so important to get this straightened out and get BC's sheep hunters educated. Big whitey's, Willy 442, If I rent the building out of my own pocket AND do the advertising would you guy's do a seminar for the rest of us BC hunters ?? We can use my ram as a shining example of what not to shoot. Bring as many diagrams, pictures, charts, video's whatever you have. This won't be a fundraiser for sheep habitat or anything like that. The sole purpose will be to educate everyone the same way. I will make damn sure that the building is filled with hunters, Wildlife biologists, Inspectors, and CO's. We need you guy's to straighten us all out. Please bring any paper work, degrees, certificates pertaining to wildlife biology you have because there will arguments etc.. and we want to make sure you have the formal training in wildlife biology to back up what you are teaching everyone. Then we can have everyone on the same page and this will hopefully never happen again. Please private message me to set up a time and place, It's up to us sheep hunters to educate ourselves. I am so glad we have you guy's to fall back on in a crisis. For me it was time to shit or get off the pot- now it's your turn. Help us out.

Mark; First off let me tell you that I have been put in the situation far to often of telling a paying client in range of full curl legal Rams that he was not allowed to shoot due to age. When as a guide you have to make this determination to someone that is paying a couple of thousand dollars a day to hunt, you had better be making correct judgements. So as far as putting on a seminar and providing you with credentials, it will not happen. What I will do is meet you or some others wanting help and offer to share my experience and let you practice aging on both horns and photo's in the method I've used over many years, by counting annuli in the same order the Ram grew them. The other options posted here are also all valid and will work if used correctly. The one issue being, my work keeps me out of town alot. So if you care to pm me and set up a time when you go through FSJ, I will try to be of some assistance if I'm in town.

We have a double standard here in BC between residents and non, this is not wrote in the regulations as you see them but this is how it works. If the age of the Sheep harvest in a management unit or GO area shows an above average harvest of young Rams (could be as few as 1 Ram) the GO is subject to a reduction in quota immediately and eventually it will also effect the resident through LEH or even closure of the area. Due to this you can see the importance of the hunter, guide and inspector being able to correctly determine the age. You and the ministry ager are not the first nor will you be the last to jointly make this mistake. The consistency of the Fish and Wildlife personnel that age these Rams is almost nonexistant. I personally have been present when on older Rams they have been 2 to three years apart in thier aging. I guess my point being the fellow who aged your Ram is not an expert because he is an approved B&C measurer. These people aging Sheep pass a very minimal aging seminar within the Ministry and very often are less qualified than some on this site. The determination that some seem to support of case closed (mount your Ram) would not be my choice and I would not want to deal with the repercussions, that are sure to follow.

I still say that a course on the judging and aging of Sheep should be a mandatory part of acquiring the tag. The BCWSS is probably best suited to deal with this and may even be able to acquire government funding, hopefully.

Sorry about the issues on your Ram, but you have the experience and can feel comfort that so far you have done the right things on dealing with the issue. GOOD ON YOU.

Bill

[David Heitsman]

SSS

The only question on an LEH any ram hunt would be, "Is that a ewe or a ram?" It takes all the ageing issues out of the equation.

I don't particularily want an LEH implemented on Stone's but I think inevitably it's coming. Particularily in the easy jet boat access areas.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

SSS

The only question on an LEH any ram hunt would be, "Is that a ewe or a ram?" It takes all the ageing issues out of the equation.

I don't particularily want an LEH implemented on Stone's but I think inevitably it's coming. Particularily in the easy jet boat access areas.


I don't have the stats handy but last yr residents did well in 7B on the average age of the rams harvested. While "we" were lower than the G/O's is wasn't by very much.

Funny, all the stories that I hear from guys using jetboats to chase sheep lead me to believe that the ram numbers seem to be doing very good:-?(at least at the monent). Maybe your source of info is slightly biased??

SSS

[bigwhiteys]

I don't have the stats handy but last yr residents did well in 7B on the average age of the rams harvested. While "we" were lower than the G/O's is wasn't by very much.

Residents shot 38 (31% of total)
non-res shot 22 (25% of total) in 7B
(via GoatGuy)

This thread is proof these stats are not accurate... You are right though, it's not a huge difference.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Residents shot 38 (31% of total)
non-res shot 22 (25% of total) in 7B
(via GoatGuy)

This thread is proof these stats are not accurate... You are right though, it's not a huge difference.

Carl

I wasn't talking about ram numbers. I was talking about average age of those rams harvested.
As you see resident harvest was up substancially from previous years.....due to a G/O quota cut and "softening" of the regs for residents. The more restrictive regs that were implemented in the previous few years killed off resident sheep hunters.

SSS

[Kody94]

I personally have been present when on older Rams they have been 2 to three years apart in thier aging.
Bill

I got a rookie inspector when I brought my big ram in to be inspected in FSJ. I had to politely explain to him how to age it, as he came up with the wrong # the first time. :eek:

This was after he had drilled and installed the plug crooked, and spilled glue all over the horn (which was not visible at the time, but dried and will not come off and REALLY pisses me off to this day).

It was quite a gong show -- not to mention the crowd of guys from all over that building that assembled to see it and find out exactly where I shot it -- what a shitty experience that whole thing turned out to be.

Cheers
4ster

[Kody94]

Well guy's I don't know what to think. I just reviewed the inspection sheet and I am baffled. There is another annuli right near the hair line- if you push the hair out of the way you can see it and the inspector has it recorded on the sheet right where it is, but I still don't get it- how could that sheep have another anulli so close to his skull, if winter was like six months ago ? Doesn't make any sense to me -and even with this annuli at the base, he still might not be legal - darn it- I'll admit it I am a little confused - can anyone explain this to me ?? I realize I may have made a mistake-and if I made a mistake then the inspector made a mistake too, But I don't really want to crucify him or feed him to the wolves either. He is an older fellow that is a certified Boone and Crocket and Pope and Young scorer who also works for the ministry of environment. I am not going to send out his name because I don't think that is the right thing to do- I will not shift the blame onto the poor old guy who may have made a mistake just like me. I swear to god the ram is inspected and plugged- I will send copies to the friends I trust on this forum. I realize that you guy's mean well so I won't take this stuff personal- I don't want immature sheep harvested either. Not by me - not by anyone. If it somehow saves this from happenning in the future to another sheep hunter- not to mention the rams being shot before their time- then mabye it will end up being a good thing overall for future sheep hunting in BC -even if I end up losing this ram. If he's 6.5 like all you guy's are saying then he's 6.5 and I have to face the music. What is losing one ram if it possibly saves hundreds in the future by better educating new sheep hunters or possibly getting rid of the whole eight years of age thing and sticking to bridge of the nose for all rams mabye- ??? I am trying to stay positive but I will admit I feel like crap about the whole thing. I will never EVER count rings again- I obviously need to stick with the bridge of the nose method- and I will.


Mark 4 your last post again show's you are a stand up kind of guy . I will be glad to drink a beer any time with you . .Keep your chin up I now a very good sheep hunter that also has made a mistake . It will all get worked out in the wash Have a great season .

calvin L


I would also like to say you seem like a very stand up kind of a guy and I mean no hard feelings either. You have had the balls to stay in the thread and talk about it and ask questions. I see this thread as educational for all sheep hunters new and old.

No one is pointing any fingers at you what so ever. You saw a ram and you honestly thought it was legal so you shot it. You were not hiding anything and got it inspected and posted it on here.

I would sit and have a drink anytime as well ...
Good luck!

I agree with these guys Mark. Very classy post above, and you have handled this very well IMHO.

Shite happens....its how you deal with it that matters.

All the best.

4ster

[willy442]

I got a rookie inspector when I brought my big ram in to be inspected in FSJ. I had to politely explain to him how to age it, as he came up with the wrong # the first time. :eek:

This was after he had drilled and installed the plug crooked, and spilled glue all over the horn (which was not visible at the time, but dried and will not come off and REALLY pisses me off to this day).

It was quite a gong show -- not to mention the crowd of guys from all over that building that assembled to see it and find out exactly where I shot it -- what a shitty experience that whole thing turned out to be.

Cheers
4ster

I know exactly what you mean, I've been through the same scenario many times and that is my point. We as residents are forced to make decisions by annuli with out qualifacations and no means of becoming qualified except our own trial and error. The ministry sets harvest levels and seasons off of miss information created in thier own house. What happened here relates back to many of my disagreements with Goat Guy and the fact that numbers are manipulated and created through misinformation. This leaves me questioning thier info in many cases. The rules implemented on Moose with the 3 brow tine or 10 points opens another can of worms. At least 1 Bull Moose has been shot every year for the last 3 in the area I Deer hunt and left to rot, due to erronous point counting. :icon_frow

[Gateholio]

Anybody have anything to say about determingin age via a tooth? Yes, I know you can't extract a tooth from a living ram.8)

But lets say you had a situation where several inspectors disagreed on the age, woudl not a tooth answer the questions? and woudl it be admissible, since the regulations syniopsis states that they are counting annuli to determine age?

[GoatGuy]

I got a rookie inspector when I brought my big ram in to be inspected in FSJ. I had to politely explain to him how to age it, ase he came up with the wrong # the first time. :eek:

This was after he had drilled and installed the plug crooked, and spilled glue all over the horn (which was not visible at the time, but dried and will not come off and REALLY pisses me off to this day).

It was quite a gong show -- not to mention the crowd of guys from all over that building that assembled to see it and find out exactly where I shot it -- what a shitty experience that whole thing turned out to be.

Cheers
4ster

The best one I've seen is buddy takes in a cali (3/4 curl minimum) and drops it off. Inspector looks the ram over and figures either 12 or 13 yrs old. Puts the ram in the jig and the inspector has no idea what he's doing. "Oh well, he's over 8 anyways," is what the inspector says. :mrgreen:

Don't worry the ram was better than 3/4 but not by much. Kinda funny.....

I had to show one of the guys how to do it when I was in there one day also. Would be nice to get this back in the hands of the CO's.

[GoatGuy]

We have a double standard here in BC between residents and non, this is not wrote in the regulations as you see them but this is how it works. If the age of the Sheep harvest in a management unit or GO area shows an above average harvest of young Rams (could be as few as 1 Ram) the GO is subject to a reduction in quota immediately and eventually it will also effect the resident through LEH or even closure of the area. Due to this you can see the importance of the hunter, guide and inspector being able to correctly determine the age


That's not actually the case. The floating model is now only used in the Skeena and for most g/os in the region the quotas are overly generous. Most of the outfitters in reg 6 don't book the number of clients and don't fill their quota. What looks good on paper doesn't look good in the bush. Also, some outfitters maintain a quality hunt whereas some will book 50 clients for 17 rams in 7B.

There are plenty of non-res shooting young legal rams in 7,3,4 and sometimes in 8 but not very often.

[GoatGuy]

Dare I say that a liberal any ram LEH system would alleviate these questions /issues?

Only if you like 500:1 odds.:roll:

[GoatGuy]

It is so important to get this straightened out and get BC's sheep hunters educated. Big whitey's, Willy 442, If I rent the building out of my own pocket AND do the advertising would you guy's do a seminar for the rest of us BC hunters ?? We can use my ram as a shining example of what not to shoot. Bring as many diagrams, pictures, charts, video's whatever you have. This won't be a fundraiser for sheep habitat or anything like that. The sole purpose will be to educate everyone the same way. I will make damn sure that the building is filled with hunters, Wildlife biologists, Inspectors, and CO's. We need you guy's to straighten us all out. Please bring any paper work, degrees, certificates pertaining to wildlife biology you have because there will arguments etc.. and we want to make sure you have the formal training in wildlife biology to back up what you are teaching everyone. Then we can have everyone on the same page and this will hopefully never happen again. Please private message me to set up a time and place, It's up to us sheep hunters to educate ourselves. I am so glad we have you guy's to fall back on in a crisis. For me it was time to shit or get off the pot- now it's your turn. Help us out.

Mark, everybody makes mistakes hunting. Anybody who's pounded enough bush has UNINTENTIONALLY screwed up hunting/harvesting/cutting/cancelling tags or what have you. Most don't fess up to it and usually hide it.

Mistakes happen in every walk of life. The big thing is to learn from it and move on.

Good on you!

[willy442]

That's not actually the case. The floating model is now only used in the Skeena and for most g/os in the region the quotas are overly generous. Most of the outfitters in reg 6 don't book the number of clients and don't fill their quota. What looks good on paper doesn't look good in the bush. Also, some outfitters maintain a quality hunt whereas some will book 50 clients for 17 rams in 7B.

There are plenty of non-res shooting young legal rams in 7,3,4 and sometimes in 8 but not very often.

GG
Would you please inform as to what the new method of determining harvest and quota are.?
What looks good on paper has never looked good in the bush. This is not new and has always been the case, too bad it took so long for the MOE to come up to speed and realize this.
Please first off show me proof that any G/O over books to this degree and secondly, what is your forcast of how long he will be in business?

Thanks Bill

[BCrams]

Anybody have anything to say about determingin age via a tooth? Yes, I know you can't extract a tooth from a living ram.8)

But lets say you had a situation where several inspectors disagreed on the age, woudl not a tooth answer the questions? and woudl it be admissible, since the regulations syniopsis states that they are counting annuli to determine age?


Aging sheep with the tooth has been proven to be quite effective (yet probably more cost prohibitive given the state of the gov'ts finances) as demonstrated by Jack Turner. Here are some excerpts from his paper:

By inspecting over 202 sheep: Annually produced cemental layers were correlated against known age and horn segmented age material and was found to be a valid criterion to predict age accurately....and can be done so accuratly to within 1 month if the time of death is known.

Since age estimation from from horns can be difficult, particularly in ewes and rams greater than 8 years of age, cemental annulation age estimates could provide more accurate data.

[BCrams]

GG

Please first off show me proof that any G/O over books to this degree.



I am probably out of the loop but I heard Kevin Olmstead did this with abandon by overbooking clients similarly to what GG is saying (not from him). The term 'just going for a ride about' comes to mind for those unsuccessful guided hunts.

Then again, I haven't seen any hard evidence myself regarding this.

[GoatGuy]

GG
Would you please inform as to what the new method of determining harvest and quota are.?
What looks good on paper has never looked good in the bush. This is not new and has always been the case, too bad it took so long for the MOE to come up to speed and realize this.
Please first off show me proof that any G/O over books to this degree and secondly, what is your forcast of how long he will be in business?

Thanks Bill

Little bit of reading about the allocation policy and stone's sheep management might do you some good. There are a couple other reports that have been put out of UNBC, published by GOABC as well as F&W branch that you might want to read. You'll also want to check up on the Scoop lake appeal - there's some information there that will help you.

My for_cast is that if I correct you for the thousandth time I'll get another nasty pm about how I'm always picking on you when you post info that is incorrect.

[willy442]

Little bit of reading about the allocation policy and stone's sheep management might do you some good. There are a couple other reports that have been put out of UNBC, published by GOABC as well as F&W branch that you might want to read. You'll also want to check up on the Scoop lake appeal - there's some information there that will help you.

My for_cast is that if I correct you for the thousandth time I'll get another nasty pm about how I'm always picking on you when you post info that is incorrect.

GG; Over the past thirty years I have read so much of this information that is reworked every time a new management team takes over in region 7, that I really can't be bothered to waste my time any more. You are young, fresh and gulliuble, hence reading this info is still exciting and new to you. That is the reason I requested that you enlighten me on the latest methods and spare me the boredom of reading this crap. Like you said paper don't work in the bush. My concern is what is really there not scientific data and poorly gathered numbers.

Now I rest my case and don't want to see what has been an educational thread for SHEEP HUNTERS at Mark's expense become locked or taken off topic. Have a good day and lets continue to agree to disagree.:)

[Gateholio]

Aging sheep with the tooth has been proven to be quite effective (yet probably more cost prohibitive given the state of the gov'ts finances) as demonstrated by Jack Turner. Here are some excerpts from his paper:

By inspecting over 202 sheep: Annually produced cemental layers were correlated against known age and horn segmented age material and was found to be a valid criterion to predict age accurately....and can be done so accuratly to within 1 month if the time of death is known.

Since age estimation from from horns can be difficult, particularly in ewes and rams greater than 8 years of age, cemental annulation age estimates could provide more accurate data.

Okay, so hypothetically-

Joe Hunter goes out ans sees a nice, broomed off ram, and shoots it, figuring it must be 8 yrs old at least.

He takes it for inspection, and the inspector says "nope, I've only got annuli indicating 7.5 yrs old" And it's true, there are only rings indicating 7.5 years visible.

Joe Hunter whips out his cellphone and calls up Joe Biologist, who stops by, pulls a tooth and declares the ram 8 years old by tooth examination.

Teh inspector protests, pointing at the regulations that say age will be determined by horn examination.

Who is right?:?:

[Gateholio]

.

Now I rest my case and don't want to see what has been an educational thread for SHEEP HUNTERS at Mark's expense become locked or taken off topic. Have a good day and lets continue to agree to disagree.:)

Good idea. This is already a somewhat painful thread, lets not add to the pain...

[GoatGuy]

Okay, so hypothetically-

Joe Hunter goes out ans sees a nice, broomed off ram, and shoots it, figuring it must be 8 yrs old at least.

He takes it for inspection, and the inspector says "nope, I've only got annuli indicating 7.5 yrs old" And it's true, there are only rings indicating 7.5 years visible.

Joe Hunter whips out his cellphone and calls up Joe Biologist, who stops by, pulls a tooth and declares the ram 8 years old by tooth examination.

Teh inspector protests, pointing at the regulations that say age will be determined by horn examination.

Who is right?:?:

teeth are sent to professionals who specialize in it, not joe biologist.

Same reason you don't go to a plastic surgeon for the flu.

[BCrams]

Anybody have anything to say about determingin age via a tooth? Yes, I know you can't extract a tooth from a living ram.8)

But lets say you had a situation where several inspectors disagreed on the age, woudl not a tooth answer the questions? and woudl it be admissible, since the regulations syniopsis states that they are counting annuli to determine age?

As what GG said. Also why I said it is cost prohibitive $$$$. It would cost a lot of money to get teeth aged. With the right people conducting aging of rams for CI purposes, horn annuli works well. Unfortunatly, the system in place is set up for inconsistency between all the different CI's.

[Kody94]

Okay, so hypothetically-

Joe Hunter goes out ans sees a nice, broomed off ram, and shoots it, figuring it must be 8 yrs old at least.

He takes it for inspection, and the inspector says "nope, I've only got annuli indicating 7.5 yrs old" And it's true, there are only rings indicating 7.5 years visible.

Joe Hunter whips out his cellphone and calls up Joe Biologist, who stops by, pulls a tooth and declares the ram 8 years old by tooth examination.

Teh inspector protests, pointing at the regulations that say age will be determined by horn examination.

Who is right?:?:

I'd have to know what the actual statute/regulation says. Interesting question, even with your CSI Miami like timelines. :D (Let me get you the DNA profile and any matches in the system...will be back in 30 seconds.)

Cheers,
4ster

[Gateholio]

teeth are sent to professionals who specialize in it, not joe biologist.

.

Okay, fine, inspector says it's not a legal ram, you take tooth to tooth specialist, he says it's 8 years old.

Who is correct?:cool:

[Gateholio]

]
I'd have to know what the actual statute/regulation says.

Yes....which I am sure is out there, but I can't find...



Interesting question, even with your CSI Miami like timelines. :D (Let me get you the DNA profile and any matches in the system...will be back in 30 seconds.)

Cheers,
4ster


All things are possible on the wild and whacky intraweb!;)

[Kody94]

I found the Wildlife Act -Hunting Regulation, current to 2006. So unless the definition has changed substantively since then, it is:



"full curl thinhorn ram mountain sheep" means any thinhorn ram mountain sheep that has attained the age of 8 years as evidenced by true horn annuli as determined by the regional manager or his designate, or whose horn tip, when viewed squarely from the side at right angles to the sagittal plane of the skull, extends dorsally beyond the nose bridge plane;


Looks like what the inspector says, goes.

Now I'll go look for appeal provisions.

4ster

[daycort]

Mark, everybody makes mistakes hunting. Anybody who's pounded enough bush has UNINTENTIONALLY screwed up hunting/harvesting/cutting/cancelling tags or what have you.

Amen GG. Just last year I made an ops on cancelling my mule deer tag and was so sick that I had the nervous sh)ts and puking. I phoned and local co, he told me to bring it in and he will sign it and all was fine. HE also said that if I didn't tell anybody that sh)t probably woulda hit the fan..

[Avalanche123]

mark4 - sorry to hear about your error. I have not been following this thread and was shocked to see how long it now was, and for good reason.

In short, live and learn. Good on you for discussing this. A rather famous engineering professor I know used to say :"An error is only a mistake if it is not recognized." So this has been educational and I am sure for those who have read this entire thread and who have hunted or want to hunt sheep, will be far more wiser for it.

Don't beat yourself up too bad for it.

[Lil Buck]

When I was guiding I learned that if the distance from the 3-5 was less than the distance from the 5 to the base dont shoot.And if you have to try and find something ,its not there .I aged Ursus ram to the year but I have viewed many thin horn sheep .
I hope mark4 is doing ok and hunts sheep again after all this boils over
But what do I know LB

[jml11]

When I was guiding I learned that if the distance from the 3-5 was less than the distance from the 5 to the base dont shoot.

Can you explain this further it seems backwards to me?? Wouldn't an older legal ram have a greater distance from the 5 to the base versus the 3-5 as he has had the years to gain that growth?? If the distance from the 3rd to the 5th ring is longer than the rest of the horn, this would mean there is not much growth afterwards and it is likely a younger non-full curl ram?? Until a ram is more than 8 years old I imagine the distance from the 3rd ring to the 5th ring would always be longer than from the 5th to the base due to simple plain old sheep biology (adding more length when younger than older) ?

[willy442]

I found the Wildlife Act -Hunting Regulation, current to 2006. So unless the definition has changed substantively since then, it is:



Looks like what the inspector says, goes.

Now I'll go look for appeal provisions.

4ster

The regional manager can review any decision made by his designate, at any time.

[mark4]

Good I hope the regional manager does review it. So far on this forum the "3 year ring" has been called a 1.5, a 2.5, a 3, and a 3.5. It will be interesting to see if the ministry changes it's tune and goes from legal with documents to back it up- to illegal and charges pending. I guess they will have to take some responsibilty for the certification, training, and hiring of their inspectors, if it in fact truly does come up as illegal. I feel that the inspector hired by the province would overule folks on the internet acting like god. I am the kind of personality that I would never scream at the top of my lungs in a crowded place that someone has committed a wildlife offence, unless I knew for an absolute fact that a crime has taken place. I don't think pictures sent over the internet is reliable enough to make such claims. I also find it funny that some folks feel that their opinion supercedes everyone elses - everytime. Whats next - will the tooth age be wrong and the regional manager wrong too ?? We will definitely see, and It could go either way. People have been sending me messages that the CO's are coming and I'm in big big trouble and time is running out etc..... I'll keep you guy's posted if the prison I'm going to has internet but It might not.

[6 K]

Wow, what a thread! I think there is alot educating happening because it. Eather directly from it or from guys going and looking stuff up from other scorces. So for that, Mark , I thank you.
It doesn't look like you were trying to hide anything from anyone to me. Also, you've stuck it out on here without becoming "agressively defencive" which is more than can be said for some of the others I read.
Personally, I like the idea of ageing a tooth, more info can't hurt even if it only settles things in your mind. But at this point, or at least as far as I have read, what you have there IS a legal ram. It was shot by fair chase, during open season, tag cancelled, horns inspected and passed. Also however, you have alot of other opinions. Albeit from educated, experianced, hunters, no one else has actually laid hands on the curls in question. Again, as far as I have read.
So, did the inspector see something we are not? Possible, correct? Yes guys I have seen the pics and arrows and my oppinion, baced on those pics, is consistant with the majority, 6-7 yrs. Sorry Mark. But it is only my oppinion and mine is not the signiture that counts. Nor am I saying it should be. Four hunts in six years doesn't make me an authorty in thinhorn ageing. I just wouldn't have been confident enough in his age to shoot.
Mark was and the inspector has agreed.
If all of the preceeding 17 pages has got you questioning then send a tooth off and call up the regional bioaligist and let him have a look at it. Then let us know the results. Let me be the first to say, I would like to be proven wrong and told to pound salt. You put it an effort, took what you beleived was a legal animal, packed it out, and fallowed the the requirements of the law concering c.i.and recieved permition to keep your animal. Sorry that your trophy/experiance has been tainted.

[mark4]

Any new sheep hunters out there ?? Here is what I want to say to you. I have been through the ringer with this and it is a result of my decision to shoot. This is what I have learned.

Do not shoot a ram that is borderline legal. There is way too much contraversy about aging out there. My ram is just the sort of ram to get differences in opinion amongst inspectors as well as other experts. If it's borderline don't shoot or even think about shooting.


It is much better to go home without anything, than bring home a ram like mine -then have it scrutinized, and re-investigated etc...


As some of the guy's with more experience have said- only shoot a big one that is definitely and obviously legal to everyone- It would well be worth the wait, and you could avoid all this turmoil by simply waiting for the big ones.

I honestly mean this guy's - wait for the big one no matter what- you will save yourself a world of trouble.

[Blainer]

I thought I would throw my support behind you Mark4.I truly hope it is a legal ram and I truly believe you did you're best to be an ethical hunter.
I somehow wish the pictures were never posted and the trophy would hang on you're wall for years to come;I would think this may deter others from possibly posting pictures ,let alone hunting sheep;but then again these guys that p.m.'d you with threats may feel they are the only ones qualified to hunt sheep.I have followed this thread and do believe that some honestly feel they are the SHEEP POLICE.If they e-mail you with threats,try to over look it as I could understand how you may become defensive,not that I blame you.
I almost think the thread should be pulled,as nobody on this site should have to be bullied or threatened.
If the ram was inspected and plugged,then in my mind you have already followed procedure.

[Sawbuck]

Mark I have been on many sheep hunts in BC over the last 25 years for both thinhorns and bighorns and know from experience that making the call whether rams are legal is never a task to be taken lightly. There is the odd exception of course but this is far from the norm these days. It is easy to make the call when a ram has been caped and is held in your hands but not so easy in a windy basin high on the Muskwa in early September. The final say really is the one that finally signs the CI report on behalf of the ministry and not any of us.
Lets not forget that you travelled north, climbed some hills, and I bet had a great hunt. Don't let any of this potential controversy take away from that experience!

[Avalanche123]

I thought I would throw my support behind you Mark4.I truly hope it is a legal ram and I truly believe you did you're best to be an ethical hunter.
I somehow wish the pictures were never posted and the trophy would hang on you're wall for years to come;I would think this may deter others from possibly posting pictures ,let alone hunting sheep;but then again these guys that p.m.'d you with threats may feel they are the only ones qualified to hunt sheep.I have followed this thread and do believe that some honestly feel they are the SHEEP POLICE.If they e-mail you with threats,try to over look it as I could understand how you may become defensive,not that I blame you.
I almost think the thread should be pulled,as nobody on this site should have to be bullied or threatened.
If the ram was inspected and plugged,then in my mind you have already followed procedure.

See I don't agree bcause then no one would have learned from this and mark4 has learned by the school of hard knocks so to speak.

It has been stated numerous times to not judge a sheep on its annuli. As a new sheep hunter (3 hunts so far) and as a bowhunter who has to get close anyway, I don't ever rely on annuli. Why? Cause I suck at it and it is way too easy to screw up. In all honesty I target those type of sheep that are similar to what StringFling posted on here cause it is an easy obvious decision.

mark4 I feel for ya. Hang in there. Read your PM's but hold them out and don't take onwership of them. IMHO you have displayed real character by acting in a professional manner in dealing with this.

Best of luck to you with the rest of the hunting season!

[Blainer]

See I don't agree bcause then no one would have learned from this and mark4 has learned by the school of hard knocks so to speak.

It has been stated numerous times to not judge a sheep on its annuli. As a new sheep hunter (3 hunts so far) and as a bowhunter who has to get close anyway, I don't ever rely on annuli. Why? Cause I suck at it and it is way too easy to screw up. In all honesty I target those type of sheep that are similar to what StringFling posted on here cause it is an easy obvious decision.

mark4 I feel for ya. Hang in there. Read your PM's but hold them out and don't take onwership of them. IMHO you have displayed real character by acting in a professional manner in dealing with this.

Best of luck to you with the rest of the hunting season!
I understand where you are coming from as far as lessons being learned.
But do you believe that anyone on this site has the right to p.m. and threaten Mark4?
Who are these guys?Step forward?
I believe after reading the earlier posts,we have an idea anyways.
The bottom line is Mark4 followed all legal protocal.

[Avalanche123]

I understand where you are coming from as far as lessons being learned.
But do you believe that anyone on this site has the right to p.m. and threaten Mark4?
Who are these guys?Step forward?
I believe after reading the earlier posts,we have an idea anyways.
The bottom line is Mark4 followed all legal protocal.

Hmmm I don't think you understood me. I think it is important to read your PM's but by not taking ownership of them, I mean don't take them personally. Read them in the "third person" so to speak. This helps keep the good old self-estemm in tact and is a good tool for "self preservation".

I think we are on the same page here Blainer.:)

[steel_ram]

Do not shoot a ram that is borderline legal.

X2

I have yet to take an animal that when down was bigger than I thought. Ground shrinkage is the norm. Bears are the worst for this. IMO, if you have to convince yourself that something is bigger than your initial first impression, it's probably not.

Talking to a CO in the field near Clinton during what was once a open 3/4 curl area, his statement was he can't believe how we can hunt these things when it's so easy to screw up. He'd just taken a look at a ram that was hanging in a neighbouring camp, that apparently would "probably just make it" with the lamb tips. In this the were hunted with little more respect than deer.

In other area's some sheep hunters go several years, passing up mediocre rams, before dropping the hammer (or not) on their dream ram.

Mistakes happen, especially this one, multiple times every year. Hopefully others will learn from this thread. I truly congratulate the starter for being upfront.

[srupp]

Over the past 16 years of hunting these stone sheep I have had a fair amount of small and medium rams and many that were looked over for a looooooong time in some cases hours..counting rings and watching every nuance as the ram turned its head..bedded sheep dont turn their heads enough lol..and when I got nervous about making the decision to pull the pin..I knew it was too close to do so...Ive been wrong enough times to not chance it...but on a couple occasions hmmm pretty close.

Mark I admire you, you have stood up and fulfilled ALL the requirements for legally obtaining and keeping a sheep in BC..

There are two issues one is the ram legally 8 years old ? I dont know..and of all the experts here I only know ONE that I consider and know well enough to believe his expertise ..others MAY or may not know this area ...however I dont know them..

#2 if indeed this animal is not 8 years old how in the he%^^&& did he get past the individual doing the aging and making it "legal"...

The FIRST issue is yours to deal with the second the Provinces..

Makes me even more careful for my sheep hunt.

Ya did the stand up man thing..and to the IDIOT(S) who e-mailed threats..sheesh get a life...

As far as "ground shrinkage " for the most part..that has not been my experience from moose to deer to bears...for the most part I have always expected what I found or better when finally walking up to the animal....

great learning post..

Steven

[6616]

How many guys on here have shot a ram only to find out on closer inspection that's it's borderline, then you get through the inspection and it's OKed and pinned and you're on your way, happy and very relieved. Would you then listen to the critics who say it's not legal (only by looking at photographs) and go back to the Ministry and say "my friends say you made a mistake", "this is not a legal ram", "consficate it and charge me"!!!!??? I think not, lets get off Mark's case and worry about poachers or something serious. This is not going to lead to a bunch of illegal rams being harvested or cause a conservation concern for Stone's Sheep. Why can't we just be happy for Mark for getting his first sheep and leave it at that.

Mark, the Ministry pinned your ram, it's now their responsibility, you could never be charged under these circumstances, deliver it to your taxidermist, take what you've learned from this discussion, and then forget about this thread.

No one is perfect, any hunter or inspector can make a mistake, this is not an issue as if dozens of illegal rams are being pinned each year. Let it go!

[Kody94]

How many guys on here have shot a ram only to find out on closer inspection that's it's borderline, then you get through the inspection and it's OKed and pinned and you're on your way, happy and very relieved. Would you then listen to the critics who say it's not legal (only by looking at photographs) and go back to the Ministry and say "my friends say you made a mistake", "this is not a legal ram", "consficate it and charge me"!!!!??? I think not, lets get off Mark's case and worry about poachers or something serious. This is not going to lead to a bunch of illegal rams being harvested or cause a conservation concern for Stone's Sheep. Why can't we just be happy for Mark for getting his first sheep and leave it at that.

Mark, the Ministry pinned your ram, it's now their responsibility, you could never be charged under these circumstances, deliver it to your taxidermist, take what you've learned from this discussion, and then forget about this thread.

No one is perfect, any hunter or inspector can make a mistake, this is not an issue as if dozens of illegal rams are being pinned each year. Let it go!

Well said Andy.

While I am one that believes both Mark4 and the inspector have incorrectly aged this ram, and am very glad that from an educational standpoint that this has been brought to light, in no way do I believe that Mark4 should be persecuted for it. I also don't advocate for him to turn himself and his ram in, or for others to sick CO's on him, bully him or whatever. Other than the aging (IMHO), Mark4 did everything right. Also IMHO, its water under the bridge at this point and Mark4's ram is legally his. As Andy says, this ram is not a conservation concern on its own, and it will not lead to a bunch of illegal rams being shot....particularly given the awareness that has been raised by this thread.

The best outcome of this situation is that a whole bunch of people are more aware of the difficulties inherent in aging rams on the hoof. Hopefully, the inspector that passed this ram will take a hard look at how he is aging rams.

Cheers,
4ster

[Deaddog]

How many guys on here have shot a ram only to find out on closer inspection that's it's borderline, then you get through the inspection and it's OKed and pinned and you're on your way, happy and very relieved. Would you then listen to the critics who say it's not legal (only by looking at photographs) and go back to the Ministry and say "my friends say you made a mistake", "this is not a legal ram", "consficate it and charge me"!!!!??? I think not, lets get off Mark's case and worry about poachers or something serious. This is not going to lead to a bunch of illegal rams being harvested or cause a conservation concern for Stone's Sheep. Why can't we just be happy for Mark for getting his first sheep and leave it at that.

Mark, the Ministry pinned your ram, it's now their responsibility, you could never be charged under these circumstances, deliver it to your taxidermist, take what you've learned from this discussion, and then forget about this thread.

No one is perfect, any hunter or inspector can make a mistake, this is not an issue as if dozens of illegal rams are being pinned each year. Let it go!


I couldn't agree more, congrats Mark and thanks (even though I am sure some of this took the shine off) on your first ram. DD

[tomahawk]

Nice ram Mark, be proud and happy of your accomplishment. The only opinions that count and have validity are yours and the inspectors!

Ignore the "drugstore hunters who think they know it all".

[willy442]

How many guys on here have shot a ram only to find out on closer inspection that's it's borderline, then you get through the inspection and it's OKed and pinned and you're on your way, happy and very relieved. Would you then listen to the critics who say it's not legal (only by looking at photographs) and go back to the Ministry and say "my friends say you made a mistake", "this is not a legal ram", "consficate it and charge me"!!!!??? I think not, lets get off Mark's case and worry about poachers or something serious. This is not going to lead to a bunch of illegal rams being harvested or cause a conservation concern for Stone's Sheep. Why can't we just be happy for Mark for getting his first sheep and leave it at that.

Mark, the Ministry pinned your ram, it's now their responsibility, you could never be charged under these circumstances, deliver it to your taxidermist, take what you've learned from this discussion, and then forget about this thread.

No one is perfect, any hunter or inspector can make a mistake, this is not an issue as if dozens of illegal rams are being pinned each year. Let it go!

6616;

Correct me if I'm wrong but are you not involved with the BCWF and other hunting related organizations? If so it is ironic that you have made the above statements. Please tell me, what stand you and everyone else on this site would have taken if this aging error had taken place in a G/O camp. We all hunt under the same criteria when hunting Stone Sheep, anyone with experience knows the Ram in question is not even close to borderline. The law as you know is 8 years old or full curl. This Ram is not close in either category, for an inspector to pass it is beyond ridiculous and with the mud smeared on the ministries face now they have no choice but to look at. The attitude of most the people on here to bury the fact it was harvested shows me the caliber of the average resident sheep hunter. Those of you encouraging Mark to ignore the fact should all be ashamed of your ethics. Maybe the department should propose all guided hunting for Stone Sheep with a one in a life time bag limit instead of education.

Mark. I see that by your posts you are starting to feel that those of us questioning your Ram are out of line. In actual fact you can trust 30 years of experience hunting these animals, with over 100 of them taken for clients and do the right thing by taking it in for verifacation or listen to those on here that are not helping you in any manner. The law is the law and no one is above it. My advice is don't get yourself in deeper cawcaw than you already are. It's your choice.

Sorry to be so BLUNT; Bill

[Gateholio]

I think everyone has had a chance to express his/her opinion here. Now it's going ot go around in circles...

Unless someone gives me a good reason to re-open the thread, it will remain locked.

Been interesting, anyway.