The Long Bomb....

[Avalanche123]

I just heard of a fellow who shot an animal using a crossbow. What bothered me was he shot the animal at 71 yards and admitted afterwards he wasn't comfortable with the shot distance. I passed on an animal last year at 30 yards cause I wasn't comfortable. Initally I blamed this 71 yard shot on the weapon however it isn't the weapon, its the user! I thought the person displayed poor judgement and just got lucky. Am I just envious? Hmmmm maybe a tad.....However at the end of the day we are all accountable and painted with the same brush regardless of weapon used. Time to smarten up and end the "Hail Mary" shots IMHO.

[Gateholio]

I was pretty amazed at the accuracy of modern crossbows, when I was shooting one a couple of years ago. 70 yard bullseyes weren't a problem. Probably too far to shoot at an animal, but the gear is up to it.8)

[OOBuck]

I just heard of a fellow who shot an animal using a crossbow. What bothered me was he shot the animal at 71 yards and admitted afterwards he wasn't comfortable with the shot distance. I passed on an animal last year at 30 yards cause I wasn't comfortable. Initally I blamed this 71 yard shot on the weapon however it isn't the weapon, its the user! I thought the person displayed poor judgement and just got lucky. Am I just envious? Hmmmm maybe a tad.....However at the end of the day we are all accountable and painted with the same brush regardless of weapon used. Time to smarten up and end the "Hail Mary" shots IMHO.

Ya, thats toooo far! I would even consider anything over 40 yards with my bow. This is also why I don't hunt in suburban areas with my bow, I don't want to have to retrieve a deer from someones back yard not good PR.

[Avalanche123]

This isn't so much a question of equipment but the fact this person was not comfortable with the distance and went for it anyway.

Apparently he was feeling pressure as four others were looking at the same animal.....

[6616]

I was pretty amazed at the accuracy of modern crossbows, when I was shooting one a couple of years ago. 70 yard bullseyes weren't a problem. Probably too far to shoot at an animal, but the gear is up to it.8)

No arguement, the equipment is capable of the accuracy, but the bigger question in my mind, is it really capable of consistently delivering the penetration and killing power with that lightweight little bolt for a 70 yards shot?

[Franko Manini]

No arguement, the equipment is capable of the accuracy, but the bigger question in my mind, is it really capable of consistently delivering the penetration and killing power with that lightweight little bolt for a 70 yards shot?

Bingo. Heavy arrows retain more downrange energy that a lighter x-bow bolt. Yeah, the bolt may start out faster, but it loses speed rapidly. 70 yards is definately a hail mary shot with any x-bow.

[Kody94]

Not to mention that:
- the time of flight to 70 yards is about 2/3 of a second,
- crossbows are not silent, and
- the bolt is moving about 1/4 to 1/3 the speed of sound.

[Gateholio]

No arguement, the equipment is capable of the accuracy, but the bigger question in my mind, is it really capable of consistently delivering the penetration and killing power with that lightweight little bolt for a 70 yards shot?

I'm not sure, but I know that I wouldn't want to get hit by a broadhead tipped bolt at 70 yards.:p

[The Hermit]

I'm not sure, but I know that I wouldn't want to get hit by a broadhead tipped bolt at 70 yards.:p

Me either and if my reflexes were half as good as a deer or elk I'd jump the string to hell away from it! Gate - are you suggesting that its okay to shoot at animals at that distance with archery gear?

[Kody94]

I'm not sure, but I know that I wouldn't want to get hit by a broadhead tipped bolt at 70 yards.:p

No worries -- I bet a guy your size could easily dodge it. :p :D

Cheers
4ster

[Gateholio]

Gate - are you suggesting that its okay to shoot at animals at that distance with archery gear?


From my first post:


Probably too far to shoot at an animal, but the gear is up to it.8)

[Avalanche123]

I checked on the wonderful web and saw that these bolts can be purchased with weights to 400 grains. Add on a 125 grain broadhead and that is reasonable. That said, I wonder how that affects "long bombs"?

What bugs me the most is that the learning curve is so steep with this equipment that "new archers" can be really tempted to take these long shots. Granted that can happen with any weapon however with something like Trad Equip, the limitiations are very obvious from the start and I highly suspect these long bombs are rarer......IMHO

I can't speak to compound bows because I really am not familiar with them.

[OOBuck]

I checked on the wonderful web and saw that these bolts can be purchased with weights to 400 grains. Add on a 125 grain broadhead and that is reasonable. That said, I wonder how that affects "long bombs"?

What bugs me the most is that the learning curve is so steep with this equipment that "new archers" can be really tempted to take these long shots. Granted that can happen with any weapon however with something like Trad Equip, the limitiations are very obvious from the start and I highly suspect these long bombs are rarer......IMHO

I can't speak to compound bows because I really am not familiar with them.

I shoot compound. I feel very confident in my shooting ability. Targets stand still deer on the other hand don't.

[ElkMasterC]

I've shot deer with both Crossbows and Compound bows, and IMHO, Crossbows should be outlawed for able bodied hunters.

When I was a Flatlander from the Middle East (Ontario) many years ago, I discovered it's only legal to shoot a crossbow if you're elderly or disabled.

From personal experience, and I know, I know....you can quote trajectories, grain weights, downrange energy blah blah, they just don't keep the penetrating/killing power.

Add to that, people just go out and buy one with a scope to extend their season with what realistically amounts to a short-range trigger gun, and you get lots of mistakes. very short, easy, deceptive learning curve.

We should seriously think about a law to restrict their use.

OK, I've said my bit.

** Puts on sh*t helmet, and hunkers down**

[Gateholio]

I IMHO, Crossbows should be outlawed for able bodied hunters.

*

Hmmmm....Why?

[ElkMasterC]

Hmmmm....Why?


Hmm..pretty much thought I'd covered that one.....




From personal experience, and I know, I know....you can quote trajectories, grain weights, downrange energy blah blah, they just don't keep the penetrating/killing power.

Add to that, people just go out and buy one with a scope to extend their season with what realistically amounts to a short-range trigger gun, and you get lots of mistakes. very short, easy, deceptive learning curve.

[Gateholio]

From personal experience, and I know, I know....you can quote trajectories, grain weights, downrange energy blah blah, they just don't keep the penetrating/killing power.

So you claim they are underpowered?

Since they have ben used to kill buffalo, moose, bear etc, I think that you are incorrect.


Add to that, people just go out and buy one with a scope to extend their season with what realistically amounts to a short-range trigger gun, and you get lots of mistakes. very short, easy, deceptive learning curve

Some people don't practice enough with thier rifle, shotgun, compound, too. This has nothing to do with the tool itself.

[ElkMasterC]

Well, what I'm SAYING is, that's my opinion. I don't LIKE them.
I think they're CRAP.
IMHO
(In My Humble Opinion.)

The biggest grizz on record for some time was killed with a .22..no?
That doesn't mean I'd hunt them with one.

Apparently a 886 lb black bear was killed with a Mazda, but I certainly wouldn't hunt with those either....although they're cheaper than my Tikka and Meindls..lol

So my OPINION is that they're crap, and that people run out and buy them at the end of the year, and generally wound sh*t.
If you want to BOWHUNT...man up, and buy a BOW, and get out there and PRACTICE!!

Once again, this is just my humble OPINION...that's why they call them that...
It's my POINT of VIEW...and while it may differ with yours, that does not make it INCORRECT!

Chill out, crack a bevvie, and have a nice day! :_)

[Gateholio]

Well, what I'm SAYING is, that's my opinion. I don't LIKE them.
I think they're CRAP.
IMHO
(In My Humble Opinion.)

The biggest grizz on record for some time was killed with a .22..no?
That doesn't mean I'd hunt them with one.

Apparently a 886 lb black bear was killed with a Mazda, but I certainly wouldn't hunt with those either....although they're cheaper than my Tikka and Meindls..lol

So my OPINION is that they're crap, and that people run out and buy them at the end of the year, and generally wound sh*t.
If you want to BOWHUNT...man up, and buy a BOW, and get out there and PRACTICE!!

Once again, this is just my humble OPINION...that's why they call them that...
It's my POINT of VIEW...and while it may differ with yours, that does not make it INCORRECT!

Chill out, crack a bevvie, and have a nice day! :_)


My OPINION is that you don't actually have any logical reasons to disallow crossbows.

[GoatGuy]

I just heard of a fellow who shot an animal using a crossbow. What bothered me was he shot the animal at 71 yards and admitted afterwards he wasn't comfortable with the shot distance. I passed on an animal last year at 30 yards cause I wasn't comfortable. Initally I blamed this 71 yard shot on the weapon however it isn't the weapon, its the user! I thought the person displayed poor judgement and just got lucky. Am I just envious? Hmmmm maybe a tad.....However at the end of the day we are all accountable and painted with the same brush regardless of weapon used. Time to smarten up and end the "Hail Mary" shots IMHO.

There are a couple archers I've bumped into that can paste a pie plate at 100 yrds with compounds and have shot animals pushing 100 yards. We aren't talking about your 60-70 lbs bows.

Legal? yes
Enough energy? yes


Ethical? Best left for fireside chat.

Happens with .22s, shotguns, rifles, compounds, traditional bows and xbows. Also happens with guys who use 10 lbs tippet and fight steelhead for 45 minutes and guys who think they have to use a 3 weight and 3 lbs tippet for catching big rainbows and then cut 'em loose only to have them roll belly up due to lactic acid build up.

As you said, really has nothing to do with a xbow and everything to do with the user. It happens with everyone.

[Moosenose]

I have both a compound bow and a crossbow.
My arrow grouping is a lot better with the crossbow, therefore I am less likely to wound game with the crossbow.
Leave the crossbow alone, it is a superior hunting tool to the compound bow. Nothing wrong with the compound, I have a friend that uses a long bow. He's a true traditional hunter, and hats off to him, but I prefer the crossbows.
70 yards is a little out of my range, but with a range-finder and lots of practice............... still be rainbowing it.
3 weeks and 2 days, I will be out with my crossbow, maybe catch one inside 50 yards. If not, it's a great way to do some early season scouting.

[mwj]

clark,
sounds like sheep hunting didn't make you any lighter on your feet!!!! lol.
let me know when your coming for more seafood.
p.s. i own a crossbow.
mark

[huntwriter]

However at the end of the day we are all accountable and painted with the same brush regardless of weapon used. Time to smarten up and end the "Hail Mary" shots IMHO.

Everybody makes mistakes that he or she regrets later. That is what makes us human. It seems he learned his lesson and wont repeat it again.:wink:

[huntwriter]

I've shot deer with both Crossbows and Compound bows, and IMHO, Crossbows should be outlawed for able bodied hunters.

When I was a Flatlander from the Middle East (Ontario) many years ago, I discovered it's only legal to shoot a crossbow if you're elderly or disabled.

From personal experience, and I know, I know....you can quote trajectories, grain weights, downrange energy blah blah, they just don't keep the penetrating/killing power.

Add to that, people just go out and buy one with a scope to extend their season with what realistically amounts to a short-range trigger gun, and you get lots of mistakes. very short, easy, deceptive learning curve.

We should seriously think about a law to restrict their use.

OK, I've said my bit.

** Puts on sh*t helmet, and hunkers down**

Why is it that each time when crossbows are motioned it has to turn into this?

While I respect your opinion it is the same opinion regurgitated time and again by people that totally disregard the facts.

A crossbow is a very efficient and accurate tool in capable hands, like any other type of weapon. A crossbow is not a gun it is archery equipment. Just because it has a stock that looks like a gun does not make it a gun, not by a long shot. Crossbows have been around for 2000 years in China and a bit over 1000 years in Europe as hunting tool and in warfare. If the crossbow would be as inefficient as the anti crossbow league keeps telling us would it have been around for that long? I don’t think so.

Crossbows are not the only weapon purchased just before hunting season opens, compound bow or rifles are a hot selling item too around that time of year. You can’t blame a weapon on the irresponsible behavior of some people. The argument that crossbows make for sloppy hunters is as silly as saying guns kill people or knives cut people.

The crossbow controversy is built entirely on unfounded myth and hype that never could stand up to scrutiny. Fortunately, all over North America game agencies start to realize that and begin to permit crossbows, despite protests from archery organizations, as legal hunting weapon for all hunters where they were outlawed previously. Not only do they start to accept crossbows but include crossbows in the proper segment of the hunting season, the archery season. It’s about time too.

I am not a crossbow hunter, although I too use crossbows besides compound bows, rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders.

In a time when our hunting heritage faces so many real problems…..Ah what the heck, read my signature.

[ElkMasterC]

I am no longer a crossbow hunter, and with good reason.

If anyone has kills with both weapons, speak up, but otherwise read and learn.

"Unfounded Myth"

Hey Huntwriter...... wouldn't it be wiser to have a united front of people that really respect the game they hunt, and do their best to ensure that they provide a quick clean kill, by a hunter that knows that he is taking a life?
Wouldn't it be wiser to have a population of hunters that buy bows that they have to actually learn how to operate? How to Aim? How to compensate for elevation...yardage..etc?
Or let's just buy crossbows, sight em in, learn nothing, and call it good? Huh? Huh?

Crossbows are the Road Hunting of Archery.
Shortcut . Cheapshot.

[ElkMasterC]

I have both a compound bow and a crossbow.
My arrow grouping is a lot better with the crossbow, therefore I am less likely to wound game with the crossbow.
Leave the crossbow alone, it is a superior hunting tool to the compound bow. Nothing wrong with the compound, I have a friend that uses a long bow. He's a true traditional hunter, and hats off to him, but I prefer the crossbows.
70 yards is a little out of my range, but with a range-finder and lots of practice............... still be rainbowing it.
3 weeks and 2 days, I will be out with my crossbow, maybe catch one inside 50 yards. If not, it's a great way to do some early season scouting.

False logic.

A crossbow licks the compound's posterior.

Arrow grouping..and a quick arrow that passes through a game animal are completely diff things. Paper ain't meat.

[todbartell]

If you want to BOWHUNT...man up, and buy a BOW, and get out there and PRACTICE!!

give your head a shake ****! a 100-125 broadhead @ 300-330 f/s is deadly..whether launched from a compound or a crossbow.......:wink:
it's pretty lame to blame the tool on a bad job......

[Avalanche123]

. It seems he learned his lesson and wont repeat it again.:wink:

I am not so sure about that one.....there is nothing that I have heard that suggests this. However I hope you are right.

Negative Reinforcement is a term used to describe a situation where a person did something wrong however the outcome was favourable...so they get away with it. The tough part is being able to turn this around so the pattern doesn't repeat itself.

I started this thread not to distract from any particular weapon but more as a heads up so we all hunt/shoot within our best abilities. I personally don't want to lose an animal and have it running around with an arrow stuck in its butt because I shot outside my comfort range. I realize this happens but just do the best you can.
.

[happygilmore]

I think what elk is refering to is that x-bows are easy therefore evil :evil:. It's why I tease my buddies who shoot x-bows, while I shoot a compound, and why traditional hunters who shoot recurves belive that compounds are evil :evil: because they offer a technological advantage. Live and let live! Why don't we all revert back to sharpened sticks and rocks then the techno phobes will be happy. It's only fair!

[Avalanche123]

and why traditional hunters who shoot recurves belive that compounds are evil :evil: because they offer a technological advantage.

I don't think any weapon is evil.

I don't hunt with a compound or x-bow because I prefer the simplistic nature of the recurve and longbow. I

I have seen the tech advantage come to a grinding hault when sight pins are broken, the weapon dropped etc......plus they are heavy.

To each their own I say but shoot wisely!

[bcfarmer]

I started this thread not to distract from any particular weapon but more as a heads up so we all hunt/shoot within our best abilities. I personally don't want to lose an animal and have it running around with an arrow stuck in its butt because I shot outside my comfort range. I realize this happens but just do the best you can.
.

Avalance,
it might have been appropriate to include this quote when you started the same thread on TBBC, then possibly peole wouldn't think you were just doing a "soft stir" of the pot.

All these arguments have been gone over here again and again....but to be fair, not for at least 4-5 months. I always find it amazing that when some people get a thought in their head that no matter how much logical explaining goes against that thought, the thought won't be changed.

Kinda like mine...Traditional archery should be outlawed unless a certificate of proficency is given. Lets face it, shooting at animals without sights is just not ethical:biggrin::biggrin:.....ALL SAID WITH TOUNGE IN CHEEK

bcf

[Vader]

Not that I agree with the statements about evil weapons.. because they can all be poorly used with less than ideal logic or precision in the heat of the moment by eager bodies.
ElkMasterC may be referring, and I hate to interpret any writtings, to the more intimate connection with a long bow or compound. One has to know something about equipment in order to get into the sport. Draw length, poundage, arrow spine, type of rest, fingers or release to name a few. 20 minutes in the backyard will tell ya that buddies bow ain't for you. However, anybody can spend 400 to 1200 bux on a crossbows and leave the store with, and I've heard the sales pitch, gunlike accuracy out to 100 yards. And many are buying into this rhetoric as gospel, fling a few at 20 or so yards to sight in and you are good to go.
Case in point. I was at a 3D shoot in the spring and met a fellow that had his crossbow there and we were talking about the shoot in general. He said he was humbled by the experience of 3D as it showed his lack of ability to shoot off hand at unknown distances. He'd owned his X-bow for 3 years and had taken a deer each year from a ground blind in the same spot at the same 25 yards. A known distance and one he said he practiced for.
This was a 45 target course and after 30 targets he had to go home to get more arrows because he only had 6 with him and he only had one left to finish the round. His biggest problem he said was believing that his setup, the sales pitch, would compensate for his lack of ability to judge distance and angle.
I know that this can happen with any weapon, but I see more and more of the "good to go" quick fix to take advantage of the bow seasons. I don't see the need to ban them or any weapon.

[Wild one]

Elkmasterc I have killed deer with crossbow and compound and found nothing wrong with ether weapon. The only problem I have seen with all styles archery is hunters that shoot beyond there limits. I have seen this problem more so with rifles so should they be outlawed?I think there is no problem with any weapon for hunting as long as the hunter is using it reasonably.

[hunter1947]

To me 70 yards is out of my area.
I will limit myself to 40 yards or shorter.

I guess if you are real comfortable at taking a shot at this distance and you know you can put the arrow or bolt in the kill zone every time ,then I can't see it being a problem at this distance.

[Gateholio]

I am no longer a crossbow hunter, and with good reason.

If anyone has kills with both weapons, speak up, but otherwise read and learn.

Hey Huntwriter...... wouldn't it be wiser to have a united front of people that really respect the game they hunt, and do their best to ensure that they provide a quick clean kill, by a hunter that knows that he is taking a life?




If you are having problems killing animals with a modern crossbow and modern arrows/tips, the problem is with you, not the gear.



Wouldn't it be wiser to have a population of hunters that buy bows that they have to actually learn how to operate? How to Aim? How to compensate for elevation...yardage..etc?
Or let's just buy crossbows, sight em in, learn nothing, and call it good? Huh? Huh?


Your argument is flawed. A bow, rifle, crossbow, etc cannot force a person to practice with it, or become proficient with it.

If that was the case, all the guys shooting 300 Winchester Magnums would be capable of cleanly taking game at 400 yards, while the actual truth is most dont' have much business shooting beyond 200.


Crossbows are the Road Hunting of Archery.
Shortcut . Cheapshot.

"I don't like crossbows, so I don't want anyone else to use one"

Not logical, but of course we are all entitled to believe whatever we want, regardless of logic.

[Bow Walker]

I just heard of a fellow who shot an animal using a crossbow. What bothered me was he shot the animal at 71 yards and admitted afterwards he wasn't comfortable with the shot distance. I passed on an animal last year at 30 yards cause I wasn't comfortable. Initally I blamed this 71 yard shot on the weapon however it isn't the weapon, its the user! I thought the person displayed poor judgement and just got lucky. Am I just envious? Hmmmm maybe a tad.....However at the end of the day we are all accountable and painted with the same brush regardless of weapon used. Time to smarten up and end the "Hail Mary" shots IMHO.

This person is only guilty of shooting beyond his personal limitations. The fact that he got lucky is irrelevant. It's my hope that he realizes what has happened here (or there) and will not take a shot beyond his limitations again. If he'd have had any cajones he'd have admitted to the fact (and the group) that the shot wasn't within his comfort zone and not even attempted to take it.


I was pretty amazed at the accuracy of modern crossbows, when I was shooting one a couple of years ago. 70 yard bullseyes weren't a problem. Probably too far to shoot at an animal, but the gear is up to it.8)

You're right Clarke. The average poundage on a crossbow these days has over 200 lbs. of pull. That sends the heavy bolt (in excess of 500 grains) downrange at a speed that is better than 375 f.p.s. This set of criteria offers a K.E. that routinely averages better than 120 ft/lbs. (some are as high as 130 ft/lbs).

The following chart/table was taken from the Excalibur Crossbow website and it illustrates the capabilities of the average crossbow, shooting at 350 f.p.s. Most crossbows will give you speeds that are faster than 350 f.p.s. It's easy to see that the KE out at 50 yards is plenty to kill any North American game animal - the same would hold true out further as well. The arrow speed is still respectable as well.

:idea:Would I take the shot at 70 yards? :!:ONLY at something inanimate.

Figures are assuming a 400 grain arrow @ 350 fps, 20 yards sight-in.
Range ( yards) Arrowdrop (inches) Terminal Velocity (FPS) Kinetic Energy (ft. lb.)
10.................... +0.75 .....................343.3 ............................105
20 ......................0 ..........................336.72 ...........................101
30 ....................-3.81 .......................330.27 ...........................97
40 .....................-10.81 .......................323.94 .........................93
50 ......................-21.13 ......................317.72 .........................90

[willyqbc]

Leave the crossbow alone, it is a superior hunting tool to the compound bow.

first let me state that i have no problems whatsoever with crossbows and their use by responsible well practiced users. However i would like to throw out a rebuttal to the issue of their superiority to the modern compound.

I tested the two against each other on my home range and these are my observations

equipment - 150lb barnets compound Xbow 380 grain bolt going 323fps
- 68lb hoyt ultratec 340 grain arrow going 311 fps

Accuracy - even using a rest there was no distance at which the crossbow outperformed my compound as far as group size goes...I tested out to 60 yards with a single pin moveable site on the compound and a drop compensated scope on the crossbow. Also if you look at the FCA 3D nationals last year which had a large X-bow category...the fellow who won the category would have been 10th in mens open...pretty clear indication there.

trajectory - this was not even close the compound far outperformed the crossbow...using a 20 yard pin at 50 yards the compound arrow hit about 2 feet low....the crossbow bolt was at least 4 feet low but i can't be sure because it was off the burlap bag low each shot.

My conclusions were that even though both weapons are capable of clean kills at reasonable distances with enough work and practice the modern compound is by far the superior weapon. It was asked earlier in this thread that "if the x-bow was so inefficient why has it been around for 3000 years" well because up until the very recent past it was a military weapon....unlike a typical long bow the crossbow did not require years of practice to get good with you could put it in the hand of a new recruit and expect acceptable performance from him. It is the same with modern crossbows, in order to get the faster learning curve, you definately give up some performance to the modern compound....why else would you need 150 lb pul as compared to 68lbs just to get similiar initial speed??? there can be no doubt, x-bows are not nearly as efficient as a modern compound.

in the end....shoot what you like but don't believe the hype and fool yourself into thinking the xbow is not only easier to learn but is also the better weapon.....just not the case.

[Avalanche123]

Avalance,
it might have been appropriate to include this quote when you started the same thread on TBBC, then possibly peole wouldn't think you were just doing a "soft stir" of the pot.bcf

I did not start the thread on TBBC. I merely responded to a thread there. If you notice, both same the same thing.

I have zero intention of stirring the pot, this is all my honest opinion.

I posted this on HBC as I knew lots of people followed this site and I was voicing my concern in a "venue" that is respected and has followers unlike the TBBC site which sees very little action. Perhaps my only error was not starting a new thread on the TBBC but being abit lazy and knowing full well it wouldn't generate much if any response, I just stuck it in the Post about crossbows.

Again, in case you didn't notice, this IMHO has nothing to do with the weapon, it is the person using it.

This "thought" is simply this thread being mis-interpreted by a few people to voice their concerns about the x-bow. For the most part, I found it to be informative as I've gotten some interesting info from it.

I hummed and hawed about posting this on any forum and I tried to choose my words carefully so as not to inflame anyone. At the end of it all, I trust it serves as a timely reminder to folks when they spot their quarry just outside their comfort zone, they'll either pass on the shot, or attempt to get closer. Isn't that what its about?

[brotherjack]

Bah - the hard part of harvesting an animal with an arrow isn't the shot. The hard part is getting the critter up close and personal, broadside, and totally unaware that you're about to stick him with a razor blade tipped stick. Once you've reached the point of taking the shot - running an arrow through yee olde critter is (or should be) pretty trivial - no matter the equipment you're using. If it's not - then you're not close enough. :)

And just for the record - my mind boggles, as we are now slamming crossbows for being "underpowered", when it wasn't all that long ago that there was a thread about how crossbows shouldn't be allowed at 3D events, because they were far too overpowered and would tear up the targets. (eyes rolling). Bigotry knows no rhyme or reason, I guess. My Excalibur crossbow flings a 430 grain arrow 275 chronographed FPS. That's no more, and no less powerful than a typical compound bow. Trajectory, time of flight, accuracy, and performance on-game is IDENTICAL to what could be expected from a properly tuned compound bow.

[Avalanche123]

Bah - the hard part of harvesting an animal with an arrow isn't the shot. The hard part is getting the critter up close and personal, broadside, and totally unaware that you're about to stick him with a razor blade tipped stick. Once you've reached the point of taking the shot - running an arrow through yee olde critter is (or should be) pretty trivial - no matter the equipment you're using.

Amen to that! (Respectfully)

[Deerwhacker]

I dont care how what you can hit in practice you simply do not arrow a live animal at that distance.
A couple of years ago i have "captain 3d " shooting his compound in camp nailing 70 yard bullseye , later that night when he finally showed up he was telling a story of the elk he just missed from 70 yards.
its alot different when your aiming at the real thing and all archery hunters should use proper judgment when taking there shots.
Btw a crossbow will effectively kill anything that a vert bow will and the petty weight difference will only make a difference on a range that no one should be shooting animals at.

[brotherjack]

don't believe the hype and fool yourself into thinking the xbow is not only easier to learn but is also the better weapon.....just not the case.

And this is why The Wife(tm) packs the Excalibur (can't comfortably pull a 40lb bow), and I pack my PSE Firestorm Lite. I have no qualms or compunction about using a crossbow, but my compound bow is a better tool (and at 4lbs quiver and all, it's a LOT easier to pack than the 9lb Excalibur). :)

[J_T]

Bah - the hard part of harvesting an animal with an arrow isn't the shot. The hard part is getting the critter up close and personal, broadside, and totally unaware that you're about to stick him with a razor blade tipped stick. Once you've reached the point of taking the shot - running an arrow through yee olde critter is (or should be) pretty trivial - no matter the equipment you're using. If it's not - then you're not close enough. :)
I couldn't agree more. We always talk about accuracy with some bows, but it is really about hunting skill that puts us within confident ranges.

I once happened upon a hunter that had just taken a mule deer at 108 yards with a crossbow. The killing shot was his second at the animal and he called it a hail mary. I congratulated him on a great kill and helped him drag the animal out. My personal opinion, with any archery tackle, 40 yards is max. For myself, 15 (deer) 25 (elk) is my confidence range. I did not judge the hunter I met.

[416]

I did not judge the hunter I met.

Best response so far!! But it we like to eat our own don't you know. If its legal and fair chase, who am l to pass a judgement call on a fellow hunter?

[Archive]

ElkmasterC:

If anyone has kills with both weapons, speak up, but otherwise read and learn.

Aye

I recall the spearchucker thread some (3) years past.
Gatehouse? Can we go there?

[Gateholio]

ElkmasterC:


Aye

I recall the spearchucker thread some (3) years past.
Gatehouse? Can we go there?

Hey, go anywhere you want! I'm not bashful.:tongue:

[huntwriter]

Hey Huntwriter...... wouldn't it be wiser to have a united front of people that really respect the game they hunt, and do their best to ensure that they provide a quick clean kill, by a hunter that knows that he is taking a life?
Yes it would be, but as I keep saying until the day I die, respecting game and taking ethical shots is not dependent on what tool you chose. Respect for the game is based on character and skill of the hunter and that has nothing whatsoever to do with what he uses. I have met as many unethical hunters using trad. Longbows as I have using crossbows, rifles or whatever.
The slob that shot an arrow at me many years ago (I still have a scar on my neck) because he “mistaken” me for a deer used a trad. recurve bow.


Wouldn't it be wiser to have a population of hunters that buy bows that they have to actually learn how to operate? How to Aim? How to compensate for elevation...yardage..etc?
No I think it would be wiser if hunters learn to respect others and not judge them on the choice of weapon just because you happen not to like it. It would be wiser if hunters would learn the facts rather than just repeat some unfounded hype they heard somewhere.

All weapons have their limitations and a good hunter knows his own and the limitation of the weapon.


Or let's just buy crossbows, sight em in, learn nothing, and call it good? Huh? Huh?
That statement right there lets me think that you never have shot a crossbow, because if you would you would know that while a crossbow is easier to shoot you still have to sight it and learn to shoot it and hit what you’re aiming at. You also still have to learn the skills to hunt.


Crossbows are the Road Hunting of Archery.
Shortcut . Cheapshot.
You know what. Reading this makes me think that perhaps your looking a bit down your nose at others because you have to practice more with your bow to become proficient with it then someone with a crossbow. I’ve got news for you. You’re not a better hunter or a more ethical hunter because of what weapon you chose. Archers are not some sorts of elite hunters. They are like everybody else just hunters. Rather than spewing ignorance you should be happy that we live in a place where we have the opportunity to choose from many different methods of hunting practices. Climb of your bandwagon because it is about to drive into a ditch.

[325]

So much animosity towards the crossbow...

Before any more flames get thrown, have a look at the PSE forum, where in the last month or so there was a thread on "how far is too far?". Many of those who posted said they would shoot out to 60 or 70 yards. These posting are from compound bow shooters. The bottom line is that some people are better than others, and some are just idiots.

[brotherjack]

So much animosity towards the crossbow...

Before any more flames get thrown, have a look at the PSE forum, where in the last month or so there was a thread on "how far is too far?". Many of those who posted said they would shoot out to 60 or 70 yards. These posting are from compound bow shooters. The bottom line is that some people are better than others, and some are just idiots.

Yep, and there was a guy here a year or two ago that got a lot of negative feedback for bragging about arrowing a moose at 80 yards (and fessed up that he indeed had an 80 yard pin on his bow because he intended to be ready to do just that should the situation arise).

Of course, because he was using a compound bow and not a crossbow, I don't recall one person who talked smack about his choice of weapon - just his ethics. Had he been using a crossbow, I'm sure he would have become the poster child for why crossbows should be banned from bow season and blah blah blah.

[greybark]

:smile:Hey BJ ,Not quite true . I spoke out against such launches back then no matter what bow was used.
Cheers

[brotherjack]

Greybark: sorry, I didn't mean to say that nobody spoke out against it - lots of people did.

What I meant was, nobody went off on a rant along the lines of "compound bows are evil, a guy can put an 80 yard pin on his bow, and go out and start taking unethical shots at animals - it's disgusting, they should be outlawed or moved into the GOS because they give such a tremendous advantage over traditional archery gear, and they're way to easy for a newbie to become proficient at, blah, blah, blah" - which is exactly the rhetoric that comes up every time crossbows are mentioned (especially when in context of a hunter who has taken a shot at some ill advised range or whatnot).

[Bow Walker]

I'm sure that A123 was well aware of the can o' worms he was opening when he started this thread. It's too bad that we (as hunter/gatherers) cannot join ranks and enjoy ourselves.

I will forever take umbrage with unethical activities, wherever they might occur or whenever they happen. As has been said many, many times - although it's not politically correct - "It's not the arrow, it's the Indian."

And that applies to almost every endeavour. Come on guys, get it together.

[Avalanche123]

The intent was to not open a "can of worms"....

I made two mistakes, one which I corrected on the TBBC site. The second was mentioning the weapon used. I should have not mentioned the x-bow as that was not the point of the post.

For all of you who are slagging on the x-bow, the Thread Title is "The Long Bomb"...... not "slag the x-bow"....

As Bow Walker states above....."Come on guys, get it together"!

Well said.

[Ron.C]

Regardless of what type of bow is used, I think a 70 yard shot at any game is too far for me and I personally wouldn't take it. I think most bows in the 60-70 pound class still put an average weighted hunting arrow that far with enough energry to still make a vital shot if hit perfectly. I also think that the aninmal can move in the time it takes the arrow to get there as it can with a 30 yard shot, it just has more time. And I don't know anyone who's accuracy doesn't decrease as the yardgae they shoot increases. If you put all these variables together the chance of something going wrong increase. That is just my opinion, but there are those that say the same would apply to me shooting an animal at 50 yards. In my mind I know I am prepared to make a ranged 50 yard shot at a broadside elk that has no idea that I am there, and I know my gear is up to the task, and no one can convince me otherwise. So the only time I will tell anyone else they are nuts for making such a shot is if they are bragging about shooting when they know it was too far for their ability or gear.

finally, if you hunt with a crossbow and open the "can of worms" so to speak, good for you, hunt with whatever is legal and be proud of it.

[greybark]

:smile: Hey Brotherjack , no need to apologize . I appreciate that you stand up for your principals .Emotions and all:smile::smile::smile:.
Heck I had a crossbow hunter share my WT camp for two weeks and shot a 3-d event with another . One thing very evident in both cases was the fact the two of them could drill a bulleye at 60yds . However neither took the time to learn judging distances . One missed several shots at deer and the 3-d guy shot poorly until being told the yardage , then he nailed them .
Good luck this fall.
Cheers

[huntwriter]

Regardless of what type of bow is used, I think a 70 yard shot at any game is too far for me and I personally wouldn't take it. I think most bows in the 60-70 pound class still put an average weighted hunting arrow that far with enough energry to still make a vital shot if hit perfectly. I also think that the aninmal can move in the time it takes the arrow to get there as it can with a 30 yard shot, it just has more time. And I don't know anyone who's accuracy doesn't decrease as the yardgae they shoot increases. If you put all these variables together the chance of something going wrong increase. That is just my opinion, but there are those that say the same would apply to me shooting an animal at 50 yards. In my mind I know I am prepared to make a ranged 50 yard shot at a broadside elk that has no idea that I am there, and I know my gear is up to the task, and no one can convince me otherwise. So the only time I will tell anyone else they are nuts for making such a shot is if they are bragging about shooting when they know it was too far for their ability or gear.

finally, if you hunt with a crossbow and open the "can of worms" so to speak, good for you, hunt with whatever is legal and be proud of it.

That is exactly what it should be about. Nothing matters other than the personal skill of the shooter. I like your attitude and wish there would be a lot more like you.

[6616]

The question of the viability of long range shooting is certainly not limited to bows or crossbows and includes shots taken with even the fastest and flattest of rifle cartridges.

The ethics thing is merely a question of a shooter knowing the limits of his equipment and his personal skill level to use it (which natuarally varies greatly between individuals) and then staying within those limits.

If a shooter admits he took a "Hail Mary" shot that's almost the same as admitting it was outside his limits and then it becomes ethically questionable in my mind.

[winbuckhunter]

i shot a nice muley buck at 55 yards. the bolt didnt even slow down it went right through deer went 20 yards and fell.. as said, practice makes perfect and i practice those shots regularly 50-60 even 70 yards isn't unethical to a hunter with the ability to shot that distance with confidence. my bolts are 22 inches 23 1/2 with broadheads, i shoot 150 grain broadheads. at 50 yards it only drops 7 inches.. I had it tested so i could set my scope to the right speed and my xbow shoots 358 FPS leaving the bow. hardly any of you ppl acually have experience with xbows. like i said 55 yards and the bolt went clean through.. i do admit 70 yards is REALLY reaching out there.. with ideal wind and rain conditions.. its not out of the question..

winbuck

[rocksteady]

Winbuck....part of the issue is not whether your bolt has enough energy to pass through or not....It takes a few seconds from teh point of the arrow leaving the bow to the point of impact, in which an animal can turn or move, thus not creating a clean kill....This is the ethical question...

I do shoot a crossbow, and agree, with practice distances of around 50 yards are possible, but it has to be in a perfect scenario....Relaxed animal, broadside, perfectly still, all that stuff.....

What kind of bow do you shoot and why such heavy broadheads??? I use 100 grainers..

[winbuckhunter]

barnett predator AVI... says they shoot 375 FPS on the box but i tested mine.. and sorry i thought they were 150's i just went and looked and they are 125 grain hell razers.. I was told due to the lack in lenght of xbow bolts to use heavier broadheads for better penetration.. they seem to work good..

2 days ago i made a stupid mistake and shot at a whitetail (was only 25-30 yards away) and i was standing to close to a branch of a pine tree and when i pulled my right limb hit the branch and sent my bolt WAYYYY off target. piss me off he a was beauty 4x5 prolly go 140-145 or sumthin.. but it was my stupid mistake.. what do you shoot?

winbuck

[rocksteady]

Horton Hunter Elite with 100 grain mechanicals....

Too bad about oyur ooops on teh whitey...At least it was a clean miss and he will live to see another day....better than tracking a wounded animals for many, many hours...

Just heading out the door for day 8...Wish me luck...

[Avalanche123]

I recently read an article that basically said, until an arrow can travel faster than the speed of sound, the risk will remain that an animal will move once the arrow is released. Logic suggests that the further the distance, the higher the probability of this occuring.

[huntwriter]

I recently read an article that basically said, until an arrow can travel faster than the speed of sound, the risk will remain that an animal will move once the arrow is released. Logic suggests that the further the distance, the higher the probability of this occuring.

You made an interesting point that many bowhunters overlook.
Sound travels at 340.29 m / s. Even with a high speed bow the sound of the arrow release will travel faster than the arrow. The further the distance between shooter and target the higher the chances that the animal can evade the arrow by jumping the string (ducking).

[kgriz]

Wow.......I thought I'd check out the archery section of the site to see if the bickering is less and lo and behold its worse.:razz:
My first question is Do most of you truly believe that killing something with a bow is truly better or harder than with a gun? More often than not in the thick bush country that I hunt I end up close anyways.......If you are proficient with the weapon you choose how is one better or harder than another? I grew up competing in the unlimited bow class, switched to olympic style to try out for the Canadian Team and then ended up to mostly using my longbow....from personal choice not which is better or harder. Guys often ask why I don't use my bow all of the time and I state that I use what I feel like when I feel like it not which is "better". I recently bought a new compound and was pleasantly surprised that the new technology seems to have extended my "accurate" distance by about 20m. Will I shoot this far........Maybe. I'll decide when it happens. There are way too many variables to explain it with trajectory and arrow weight.

[6616]

people just go out and buy one to extend their season

What's wrong with that....?

Isn't that the primary reason why a significant number of people buy any type of archery equipment in the first place?

Is there something wrong with hunters wanting to take advantage of an extra season, or a special season, or do you feel that since gun hunters have a very long GOS and buy archery equipment to extend their hunting, that then they're just pigging out?

Essentially bow hunting has grown in BC due to the seasons MOE has choosen to offer in recent times, if you took away all the people who bought archery equipment in the last ten years merely to extend their season, I'll bet what you'd have left is about 1/4 of the bowhunters we currently have.

Bowhunters are not born as bowhunters, bowhunters evolve from the ranks of rifle hunters in the large majority of cases!

[Eagle1]

Wow I can't believe all the "experts" on here.
I don't condone anyone shooting any game that far with a bow, no matter how great they think they are, fact is a moderen x-bow at that distance retains more ke than a 40lb { legal hunting weight} recurve/longbow at 20 yds.
lots of hunters lose or wound game shooting beyond their cabability with a rifle.Banning the use of a x-bow does that mean we should ban the use of the modern in line muzzle loaders with scopes capable of shooting 200 plus yards accurratly compared to the flint locks.
All hunting comes down to the persons own judgement, good or bad, some people just need more ethics.

[Bow Walker]

Wow.......I thought I'd check out the archery section of the site to see if the bickering is less and lo and behold its worse.:razz:
My first question is Do most of you truly believe that killing something with a bow is truly better or harder than with a gun? More often than not in the thick bush country that I hunt I end up close anyways.......If you are proficient with the weapon you choose how is one better or harder than another? I grew up competing in the unlimited bow class, switched to olympic style to try out for the Canadian Team and then ended up to mostly using my longbow....from personal choice not which is better or harder. Guys often ask why I don't use my bow all of the time and I state that I use what I feel like when I feel like it not which is "better". I recently bought a new compound and was pleasantly surprised that the new technology seems to have extended my "accurate" distance by about 20m. Will I shoot this far........Maybe. I'll decide when it happens. There are way too many variables to explain it with trajectory and arrow weight.
I think you're exaggerating just a bit with your opening statement there. Sure, some people express their opinions/thoughts as if they were "THE EXPERT" - but by and large the posters here are friendly and helpful. Someone (in another forum) said that "opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they're all different."

I don't know about "better" (that's a subjective measure), but it's certainly "harder" to kill a deer with a bow - if only because you've got to get within range. 99% of bowhunters want to be somewhere under 35 - 40 yards before they release an arrow. Don't be swayed by the miniscule 1%....


What's wrong with that....?

Isn't that the primary reason why a significant number of people buy any type of archery equipment in the first place?

Is there something wrong with hunters wanting to take advantage of an extra season, or a special season, or do you feel that since gun hunters have a very long GOS and buy archery equipment to extend their hunting, that then they're just pigging out?

Essentially bow hunting has grown in BC due to the seasons MOE has choosen to offer in recent times, if you took away all the people who bought archery equipment in the last ten years merely to extend their season, I'll bet what you'd have left is about 1/4 of the bowhunters we currently have.

Bowhunters are not born as bowhunters, bowhunters evolve from the ranks of rifle hunters in the large majority of cases!
I'd question that statement. Personally I 'm not positive that it's true. But, then again, it's just one man's opinion...:wink:

[jrjonesy]

My first question is Do most of you truly believe that killing something with a bow is truly better or harder than with a gun?

I don't believe it's 'better' by any means...but it is definitely harder. As an archer I would think you would recognize that. There's a ton of factors that making shooting an animal at close range with a bow 'harder' than shooting an animal at close range with a gun. Accuracy aside, there is the whole motion of trying to get your bow drawn without being busted. I've had lots of animals within bow range that I could have easily shot with a gun but had no chance with the bow due to shot angle or small twigs over the vitals.


What's wrong with that....?

Isn't that the primary reason why a significant number of people buy any type of archery equipment in the first place?


Yes, I think you're right in most all cases. I think the issue is with people who don't pick up there bow to shoot until just before the season starts and just after the rifle season ends. Most believe (and I agree) that it requires more practice than that.

[Bow Walker]

I whole heartedly agree with Eagle1's view/statement.

Well put, Bill.

[huntwriter]

Wow.......I thought I'd check out the archery section of the site to see if the bickering is less and lo and behold its worse.:razz:
My first question is Do most of you truly believe that killing something with a bow is truly better or harder than with a gun? More often than not in the thick bush country that I hunt I end up close anyways.......If you are proficient with the weapon you choose how is one better or harder than another? I grew up competing in the unlimited bow class, switched to olympic style to try out for the Canadian Team and then ended up to mostly using my longbow....from personal choice not which is better or harder. Guys often ask why I don't use my bow all of the time and I state that I use what I feel like when I feel like it not which is "better". I recently bought a new compound and was pleasantly surprised that the new technology seems to have extended my "accurate" distance by about 20m. Will I shoot this far........Maybe. I'll decide when it happens. There are way too many variables to explain it with trajectory and arrow weight.

Very well said.

Hunting is supposed to be FUN regardless of what tool and method a hunter chooses. Each require special, not better, skills to master. I have to agree with you that recently the squabbling about non-issues and the personal bashing of members has become quite bad here.


It seems some people are stuck in their minds own four walls and can not respect that others make different choices in life and hunting. Must be something to do with that "Me-Generation" thing.


I find the elitarian attitude some display a real put-off for every newcomer to hunting. It amazes me how some can even think that they are something special simply based on the choice of weapon.

I hunt with barchery equipment (that includes crossbows) and firearms and don’t think that I need more skill with the bow than with the rifle. I need different skills but that does not make them better skills, just different.