And people wonder why there is animosity between residents and guides...

[Fisher-Dude]

moose in our guiding area.
and no, I won't use the tag.


So why put in. ?


palmer,
any moose tag a guide ties up keeps one resident hunter
(and possible a few hangers-on) out of the area.

Yeah, those fat-assed Yanks on horseback sure don't need any residents looking to feed their families interrupting their hunts. :mad:

Not related to this post is the definition of the word "dick".

[Avalanche123]

I am not sure how that relates to being a guide. I know someone with a Spatzizi sheep tag who likely isn't going to use it and he isn't a guide...

Anyway, there a a few more reasons as to why the animosity between the two camps exist other than that...

BTW, cool use of the "blue tab arrows"

[Fisher-Dude]

I am not sure how that relates to being a guide. I know someone with a Spatzizi sheep tag who likely isn't going to use it and he isn't a guide...

Anyway, there a a few more reasons as to why the animosity between the two camps exist other than that...

BTW, cool use of the "blue tab arrows"

Is his intention to keep people out of the area too? What's his motivation? I think you missed the point highlighted above, which is an attempt to deny access to residents by tying up opportunity, A123. BTW, the blue arrows are automatic, no great computer skills required on my part. :p

[Wildman]

Originally Posted by silvicon http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=307028#post307028)
moose in our guiding area.
and no, I won't use the tag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by palmer http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=307133#post307133)
So why put in. ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silvicon http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=307594#post307594)
palmer,
any moose tag a guide ties up keeps one resident hunter
(and possible a few hangers-on) out of the area.


Those are a couple really smart statements to post on here. Nice.

[Avalanche123]

Is his intention to keep people out of the area too? What's his motivation? I think you missed the point highlighted above, which is an attempt to deny access to residents by tying up opportunity :p

I didn't read it that way however you may have a valid point.

Maybe the GO's should be restricted on LEH entries? Seems like double dipping to me!

[SHAKER]

Better yet maybe their should be NO NON RESIDENT HUNTING if us poor res. guys are on LEH. Sorry to kick a bee's nest with that statement.

[ruger#1]

any moose tag a guide ties up keeps one resident hunter
(and possible a few hangers-on) out of the area. Then i think guides shouldnt be able to be in for LEH. what poor sportsmanship.

[frenchbar]

Silvicon. So its not allright for anti gov employees to put in for leh to keep tags away from resident hunters but for the guides its ok.

[ruger#1]

Where does he guide. sounds like a good place for us to go hunting, anyone else want to go.

[hunter1947]

I myself would like to see only us the people of BC entitled to the LEH draw ,no aliens allowed.

[horshur]

Fish you are hell bent on alienating everyone that could be a co beligerent...next you will post up somthin against ranchers I supose.

If you have ever meditated on the concept of spite it would be clear that one who wishes to change somthin need plenty of friends....as it stands I would suppose plenty would vote against just cause they do not like you rather than what you and your group wish to change.

Piss on the guides...piss on the Indians..piss on the family..piss on the ranchers...piss on the bowhunters....Just amounts to a pretty poor strategy if you ask me.

[Avalanche123]

and its "off to the races" with this one......!

[Elkhound]

and its "off to the races" with this one......!

As I knew it would be.

As long as people play nice...debate away. If it gets ugly it will be locked quickly.

[Kechika]

I think it time to take a dump on the BCWF and roadhunters

[Fisher-Dude]

Fish you are hell bent on alienating everyone that could be a co beligerent...next you will post up somthin against ranchers I supose.

If you have ever meditated on the concept of spite it would be clear that one who wishes to change somthin need plenty of friends....as it stands I would suppose plenty would vote against just cause they do not like you rather than what you and your group wish to change.

Piss on the guides...piss on the Indians..piss on the family..piss on the ranchers...piss on the bowhunters....Just amounts to a pretty poor strategy if you ask me.

This issue doesn't bother you? You, who wants to hunt a moose so badly? Would it make a difference to you if the moose tag he has taken from our opportunity were in Kamloops where you hunt, rather than some place you don't intend to hunt?

I've never been a pacifist and have no intention of ever being one. Look where it got Neville Chamberlain. If I see an injustice, I intend to do what I can about it. Rolling over and letting it continue will only allow it to proliferate. You're not interested in working to ensure resident hunting opportunities, but I am. I guess there are doers and there are those who watch doers - neither type of person is "wrong", they just have a different outlook on things.

And would you get it through your head that I am NOT anti-family? I encourage all hunters to take their kids hunting. I just believe that we need to do MORE to get kids who don't have a hunting dad interested in what we do. If we had lots of hunting dads we wouldn't have half the challenge ahead of us, but we don't have that luxury. I'm not a dad but I work for youth opportunites so that dads can take their kids hunting. What's anti-family about that?

You and Steve chase me around from thread to thread and say the same thing every time. Get over it already. I think you two taking your kids out hunting is great, and I wish I had my own kids to do the same thing. I'd still, however, work to get opportunity for all residents and their kids. Let's leave this personal banter behind and discuss the issue at hand, shall we?

[Deadshot]

Boils down to everyone looking after their own. You find a loophole, you use it! Didn't the greenies just buy a guide territory? Wouldn't that enhance resident hunting in that area? Anyone out in the bush has probably had a run-in at one point with either guides or greenies or other res-hunters:eek:. It's about competition. I'm sure Kutenay will pipe in soon.

[wetcoastwillie]

...
Piss on the guides...piss on the Indians..piss on the family..piss on the ranchers...piss on the bowhunters....

FD, If you moderate your coffee intake the caffeine buzz will go away and as an added bonus, you wont have to piss so much :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

[Amphibious]

what an asshat. I'm a moose guide and I would never do that. if you;re that worried about your sucess as a guide, that you need to resort to such ignorant tactics, you need to become a better guide. you should know your area better then any LEH winner. after all, it's your JOB.

what a dick.

[mcrae]

what an asshat. I'm a moose guide and I would never do that. if you;re that worried about your sucess as a guide, that you need to resort to such ignorant tactics, you need to become a better guide. you should know your area better then any LEH winner. after all, it's your JOB.

what a dick.

See they are not all bad:razz:...

I suspect that most guides would feel the same way as Amphibious....

[horshur]

Fish..call it what you want least someone call it as they see it

I thought you would be satisfied with the "New" allocation deal since you harped on it so much but since then you have found a hole and are going to harp some more..

And in regards to me harping on you..you were the one that said( I was ****ing up the future of my kids) and so pretty much lost any inclination for me to be a Co beligerent.

And to continue harping....at times my little family may posses 5 hunting licences..from one person originaly. My wife..who never hunted..my boys as they come of age and then my daugher along with myself.

So the "little family" stands to replace itself, at least at times, 4x

if you guys would get that through your head rather than reinvent the wheel...hunter numbers would be an easy problem to solve.

Just as a final..when I infered that it would be of value to just hunt with my kids and and you said that little infamous statement---I saw that as Anti Family.

If I had said that Quad hunters are screwing the future of hunting---you would have saw that as anti quad would you not?.

best I can see...your reaping what you sowed.

This Policy Replaces:
Previous policy “Allocation of Hunting Privileges”, September 30, 1985.

Staff, Organizations Directly Affected:
Wildlife Management Staff
Regional Managers
Director
Resident Hunters
Guide Outfitters

POLICY STATEMENT:

It is the policy of the Ministry:

That, when a regional manager has determined that a big game species, population, or animal class within the region that he or she manages is a category A species, the harvest is allocated in order to prevent or reduce causes for conflict between hunter groups. When allocating category A species:
(a) resident hunters are given higher priority for harvest than guided hunters;
(b) changes of allocation share between resident hunters and guided hunters are gradual, reflect relative importance and utilization, and will only occur after unnecessary barriers to achievement of harvest have been addressed.


I thought that this was supposed to address the conflicts??

[MattB]

I definetely dont agree with what Silvicon is doing. Im sure there are lots of anti's out there doing the exact same thing too! If LEH would just switch over to a preference point system then this problem would definetely be reduced because people would only draw a tag every 5-10 years, rather than have the same chance (or close to that) every single year!

[6616]

I definetely dont agree with what Silvicon is doing. Im sure there are lots of anti's out there doing the exact same thing too! If LEH would just switch over to a preference point system then this problem would definetely be reduced because people would only draw a tag every 5-10 years, rather than have the same chance (or close to that) every single year!

In reality it shouldn't matter that much, Fish and Wildlife know how many tags to issue to kill a target number of moose in a given MU, so if they do that according to the LEH procedure, unused tags should be pretty much inconsequential.

Unused tags change the success rate and LEH numbers are calculated by dividing the desired resident harvest by the success rate averaged over the last three years.

[Shade Tree]

Like I have said before if hunters were automatically charged for the tag when they drew an LEH this sort of thing would not be going on near as much. If individuals want to tie up LEH's then let them put there money where there mouth is at least. By the way, this is no worse than a guy who puts in with no intention of ever going. It is too easy to put in and LEH's don't hold much value for some people.

[Shade Tree]

In reality it shouldn't matter that much, Fish and Wildlife know how many tags to issue to kill a target number of moose in a given MU, so if they do that according to the LEH procedure, unused tags should be pretty much inconsequential.

Unused tags change the success rate and LEH numbers are calculated by dividing the desired resident harvest by the success rate averaged over the last three years.


Fish and wildlife don't actually have a clue and this senario is incorrect. Residents have not been taking there quota for quite a number of years now. The whole LEH system needs to be changed.

[6616]

Fish and wildlife don't actually have a clue and this senario is incorrect. Residents have not been taking there quota for quite a number of years now. The whole LEH system needs to be changed.

I agree to some extent Shade Tree, but the scenario I described is actual written procedure and if things were always done according to that procedure there wouldn't be a problem,,,,I'm not sticking up for F&W and I didn't say they always follow the correct procedure, and I agree this is definitely a problem in some regions with some species.

The procedures and policies are OK, they just need to be followed.

Residents are utilizing their moose allocation in most regions, wanna talk sheep/goats it's a different picture altogether.

I also agree Shade Tree, that tags should be pre-paid to discourage the less than serious applicants, and additionally, I absolutelly do not condone what Silvicon is doing either.

[MattB]

6616, i dont think you understood what i was getting at. With a preference point system you get a point when you dont draw for a certain species. Every year you dont draw the point count increases, as do your odds with the higher number of pref points. This would weed out some of what has been happening as people would only have good odds to draw a tag every few years. A preference point system could also aid people in determining when they will draw a tag and allow them to plan for this and plan for their hunt. Having to pay for the tag when you draw is also a good idea and could also weed out people that dont actually want to hunt what they draw! I am a firm believer in that the current LEH system needs to be changed!

[6616]

6616, i dont think you understood what i was getting at. With a preference point system you get a point when you dont draw for a certain species. Every year you dont draw the point count increases, as do your odds with the higher number of pref points. This would weed out some of what has been happening as people would only have good odds to draw a tag every few years. A preference point system could also aid people in determining when they will draw a tag and allow them to plan for this and plan for their hunt. Having to pay for the tag when you draw is also a good idea and could also weed out people that dont actually want to hunt what they draw! I am a firm believer in that the current LEH system needs to be changed!

I understand what you mean Matt and I agree. With hunts that allow it because of reasonable odds a points or pool system would work. The LEH system does need a work-over.

The fact that I was trying to point out is that if proper procedure and policy were followed there wouldn't be so much of a problem. Also if wildlife management in BC was not so stubbornly conservative, half the hunts that are on LEH could be on GOS and the LEH system wouldn't then be such a big issue.

[6616]

Don't forget there are pitfalls in the points and/or pool LEH systems as well. Being guaranteed a tag every 3, 5 or 10 years when your name gets to the top of the list only works when AAH is consistent over long periods of time.

When there's a winter die-off in the Peace for example (which happens with disturbing frequency) and the AAH is cut in half, then only half of those people at the top of the list expecting a tag are actually going to get one.

If the AAH is cut in half due to conservation concerns, a ten year cycle immediatelly turns into a twenty year cycle. In BC we have the flexibility of adjusting AAH annually or whenever the need arises without upsetting the system. In Alberta and Saskatchewan major adjustments to the AAH really screw up their LEH systems.

Likewise, AAH can increase and then you'd get your tag sooner than you expect, but AAH adjustments do compromise the perceived guarantee in these systems.

I'm not defending the BC system, nor am I trashing the Alberta system, just pointing out that no system is foolproof. The BC system "does" need reworked and possibly a combination of the two systems might work for us. It's quite obvious that a preferred pool or points system will not work for high odds hunts like Roosevelt elk in 1-09 or sheep in 3-17, but there are many hunts where it would work.

[Gateholio]

Originally Posted by silvicon
palmer,
any moose tag a guide ties up keeps one resident hunter
(and possible a few hangers-on) out of the area

Getting a tag to prevent someone else from getting a tag...That leaves me speechless, for once. Sounds like a childish thing to do, like eating the last cookie, even though you are full, just so your sibling doesn't get it.

[tomahawk]

I've been involved in hunting for 40+ years and all I can say is that Silvicon's, or any other guide\outfitters behaviour in getting a tag for the sole purpose of preventing a BC'er from doing so, has only one root cause!

IMHO Silvicon and anyone else that does this are clearly not good enough nor do they have the confidence in their abilities to be successful with the hunt otherwise. Why not get better at being a guide instead of trying to prevent a resident hunter from taking an animal?

[rifleman]

Where does he guide. sounds like a good place for us to go hunting, anyone else want to go.
yea i'm in

[wetcoasthunter]

I know we aren't suppose to do the personal attack thing, but this Silvicon guy.......(so don't)

I just hope that this guy came up with this all on his own and wasn't shown this by another (loser) guide. But I fear there are alot more out there.

[6616]

I know several guide-outfitters who apply for their personal tags and do their own personal hunting outside their territory. They want to shoot trophy animals and they don't want to take them out of their own territory and deplete their marketable trophies but they don't mind taking them from another outfitters territory. As resident hunters they have every right to do this and to apply where ever they want, however it might not seem fair to the neighoring outfitter whose territory he's hunting in. Of course it's perfectly legal if he's hunting for himself and doesn't have a client with him. I wonder how the guide-outfitters feel about this and how they deal with it amongst themselves?

[mpotzold]

Agree with FD! I’m not against guiding per se but to see some dude in the guiding business “boast” on FD’s thread of why he applied for an LEH(& was successful) in his area is in bad taste (IMO):mad::mad: (Don’t understand why he posted??) Probably happens all the time but at least the other guides & assistant guides have a common courtesy in keeping it mum.
One possible solution-no LEH draws for guides or ANY of their assistants in THEIR area only.
I agree with others that the entire LEH system needs to be revamped.
Also I don’t agree with the guides having guaranteed allocations while we have to rely on the lottery system! They should be at equal footing with the rest of us. Making their living by hunting(it’s their choice & not an excuse) should not give them ANY priority over the BC resident hunter.

Something doesn’t add up. When we hunted in the late 60’s & early 70’s there were 2 to 3x as many hunters, longer seasons, very few LEH’s (don’t remember any!) and “fewer”
animals.

For any guide or his/her assistant to pull this kind of a stunt –I say “piss on the guide”
(MY $0.02)

[Avalanche123]

See they are not all bad:razz:...

I suspect that most guides would feel the same way as Amphibious....

I agree with this.

Wow this sure has taken off. So far so good...

[The Hermit]

I've been involved in hunting for 40+ years and all I can say is that Silvicon's, or any other guide\outfitters behaviour in getting a tag for the sole purpose of preventing a BC'er from doing so, has only one root cause!

IMHO Silvicon and anyone else that does this are clearly not good enough nor do they have the confidence in their abilities to be successful with the hunt otherwise. Why not get better at being a guide instead of trying to prevent a resident hunter from taking an animal?

I think the real reason is greed... when he wins an LEH as a resident and doesn't use it then "over time" that will reduce the resident allocation and the guide in that area will have another tag to sell to an alien. It isn't necessarily about being good enough to find an animal it IS about greed, corning a bigger piece of the pie!

FD - you and I are often in disagreement about how to achieve the same goals. In this case I agree with you 100%. Now I ask you, what have you done to raise this issue within the Government and or the BCWF?


....

This Policy Replaces:
Previous policy “Allocation of Hunting Privileges”, September 30, 1985.

Staff, Organizations Directly Affected:
Wildlife Management Staff
Regional Managers
Director
Resident Hunters
Guide Outfitters

POLICY STATEMENT:

It is the policy of the Ministry:

That, when a regional manager has determined that a big game species, population, or animal class within the region that he or she manages is a category A species, the harvest is allocated in order to prevent or reduce causes for conflict between hunter groups. When allocating category A species:
(a) resident hunters are given higher priority for harvest than guided hunters;
(b) changes of allocation share between resident hunters and guided hunters are gradual, reflect relative importance and utilization, and will only occur after unnecessary barriers to achievement of harvest have been addressed.


I thought that this was supposed to address the conflicts??

In casinos if you are caught counting cards they kick you out! For a guide to put in for and not use a tag isn't dissimilar to cheating at cards! I say FD should report this asshat!!!

[guntech]

And people wonder why there is animosity between residents and guides...

I did not think there was.... guides try and make a living within the regulations...

Last year we happened to pull up (in the dark of the morning) to a pickup stopped in the middle of the logging road. It was 4 hunters waiting for daylight... I walked up and asked which road they planned on taking in the fork ahead about 500 yards and said I would take the other one... the area was huge and we would interfere with each other... it was an leh area and we hardly ever see another hunter.

When it got light enough he proceeded and we went our ways... hours later we were pulling a nice young bull up the road where we had gone our ways and he was coming out... he stopped and we talked a bit... it turns out he was guiding 3 US hunters.

I did not feel any animosity...

[Deadshot]

I talked to the bio before & the LEH allocation is based on a rate of failure/uncut tags. If the allocation was 100% tagged out one year, the numbers would be significantly reduced the following year. Are Guides not allotted numbers on only certain species,moose not being one of them?

[Avalanche123]

The GO's I know are respectable people and wouldn't do as Silvicon is suggesting. I don't think it is fair to paint all GO's with the same brush.

I am sure there are a number of resident hunters who do things that are either unethical or make a reasonable person shake their head.

I got to had it to FD though, you sure know how to through gas onto a fire! :)

[Fisher-Dude]

I think the real reason is greed... when he wins an LEH as a resident and doesn't use it then "over time" that will reduce the resident allocation and the guide in that area will have another tag to sell to an alien. It isn't necessarily about being good enough to find an animal it IS about greed, corning a bigger piece of the pie!

FD - you and I are often in disagreement about how to achieve the same goals. In this case I agree with you 100%. Now I ask you, what have you done to raise this issue within the Government and or the BCWF?



In casinos if you are caught counting cards they kick you out! For a guide to put in for and not use a tag isn't dissimilar to cheating at cards! I say FD should report this asshat!!!

Hermie, I never really thought about this scenario before. I will be bringing it up through our club, but as was mentioned above, as a BC resident, he's allowed to put in for the draw. To admit why is about as audacious as one can get! Whether it's something that can be actioned is a bit dubious, but I'll float it by our executive to get their input.

The fear that I have is that under allocation, if there is a small number of moose tags anyways, that re-allocation in this area could swing tags away from resis. yes, it's 10% per review period, but that adds up over time. To think that some dad and son may have tried for a shared hunt in that area, and were denied because silvicon is trying to keep resis out of "his" (laughable term) territory really pisses us all off. I agree with the posters above who say that silviccn must be a $hitty moose guide to resort to these tactics.

Now, how do we get stats that may shed some light on whether certain guide camps do this regularly? Amphibious, I applaud your morals - thanks for being one of the good guys.

[6616]

Are Guides not allotted numbers on only certain species,moose not being one of them?

Outfitters are on quota (allotted numbers) for any species that is on LEH for residents, including moose where ever they are on LEH.

[silvicon]

aliens can not apply for LEH anyway.
one needs a resident hunter #
and so on.
guiddes are interested to run a sustainable and viable business.
we are not interested to shood spikes or cows.
we are not interested to kill off the future moose harvest.
we do not trow empty beer cans in the bush or shoot up road signs.
i am not saying everyone does so, but it takes only a few rotten apples to spoil the barrle!
as to the gov. employees tying up tags:
i know one woman belonging to such a group.
22 (!!) people from the same office applying for tags in the spazizi and
due to #s they do get tags every year.

to the people concerned about feeding their family:
outfitters and guides have more moose meat on hand than they can use.
all is given away!
we give many a moose to people that want them.
clean, hung cool, deboned if wished.
make friend wiht a guide and you will get more than one moose if you wish.

[elkdom]

And people wonder why there is animosity between residents and guides...

I did not think there was.... guides try and make a living within the regulations...

Last year we happened to pull up (in the dark of the morning) to a pickup .

When it got light enough he proceeded and we went our ways... hours later we were pulling a nice young bull up the road where we had gone our ways and he was coming out... he stopped and we talked a bit... it turns out he was guiding 3 US hunters.

I did not feel any animosity...




maybe you should have felt just a little 'bittee' of Animosity! a BC licenced guide may only accompany a maximum of (2) non residents under statutes of the BC wildlife act! so maybe there was a bit of crapp going on that morning! and a non resident hunter must be in direct suppervision of his Liceced guide at all times, no dropping off several non residents at tree stands, moose licks or whatever! keep your eyes open and know the law! if it looks like 'poop' it probably is POOP!

[Kody94]

Outfitters are on quota (allotted numbers) for any species that is on LEH for residents, including moose where ever they are on LEH.

And don't forget sheep (everywhere, IIANM, whether GOS or LEH for residents).

On moose in the EK, the outfitters quota is only for "mature bulls" as well, where residents are any bull.


RE: Silvicon's comment....I agree with Gates. Childish. Agree with F-D too, about it being a perfect example of some of the causes of animosity between outfitters and residents.

Cheers
4ster

[6616]

[quote=silvicon;307991]we are not interested to shood spikes or cows.
we are not interested to kill off the future moose harvest.
we do not trow empty beer cans in the bush or shoot up road signs.quote]


So tell us this Silvicon, do you support the government strategy to recruit more resident hunters?
Do you support sustainable spike/fork moose seasons?

[SUAFOYT]

With all due respect to those that are trying to make sense of the original post, I think this guy took one cast and most have risen to the bait. He's simply flaming you.