Legality of deboning an animal

[o2fish2day]

If you are expected to keep an animal together with the sex or antlers attached then is it really legal to debone and pack an animal out?

Thanks,

[todbartell]

leave evidence of sex on and a small chunk of hide on each quarter and you should be fine

[Gateholio]

As said leave a bit of the junk on...

[hunter1947]

If you don't leave the identity of sex on each of the two hind quarters ,yes it would be illegal ,as for horns or antlers they can be taken off the animal and be packed out unattached as long as they accompany the animal that you shot with the sex attached to each hind quarter.

[CNE]

regs state;

anyone who posseses or transports the carcass of the following animals must leave naturally attached to the carcass or one part of the carcass in the persons possesion the following listed parts:
for elk, moose and deer
(a) If the animal is male,either
(i) that portion of the head which bears the antlers, OR
(ii)both a testicle or part of the penis,AND the animal's tail or another readily identifiable part of the hide not less than 6 cm2.

sheep goats caribou have different rules

as far as i can tell , and i have done this with deer in the alpine, I can debone a deer to pack it out because I am complying with (a),(i) on page 20 in the regs if i carry the skull (which i beleive to be one part of the carcass) with the antlers naturally atached.

with goats weve just left the testicles on the hide just as with a bear.

with caribou you need a testicle attached, and the antlers.

someone read the regs and comment on this as im curious if ive done this right in the past. and i'd hate to give someone bad advice on something like this.

[Deaddog]

No problem with deboning, leave evidence of sex on a quarter and some hide on each of the other quarters, , done it for years, been checked by the co's several times, never had an issue

[stovepipes]

Guys maybe I am reading this wrong, but I think he means no bones at all (except the antlers), no backbone, shoulder, leg, thigh, sockets or knuckles, no quarters, just chunks of meat in game bags in the packframe. Legal?

[Brambles]

Yes, its legal. you can still leave hide and evidence of sex on with NO bones in the meat.

DEADDOG

The CO's that stopped in for a visit on our fllyin hunt last year said we only needed hair on one of the major quarters, not all of them like we had done. Still feel a little safer with hair on all quarters but if your caping the animal you don't want to butcher the cape to leave hair on the front quarter, I guess its still possible to leave hair on the front quarter AND cape it out for a shoulder mount but why bother if you don't havet to.

[Deaddog]

Makes sense, we don't leave hair on when caping for a mount, just evidencce of sex, and you are right, it is not hair on every chunk of meat.

[CNE]

Guys maybe I am reading this wrong, but I think he means no bones at all (except the antlers), no backbone, shoulder, leg, thigh, sockets or knuckles, no quarters, just chunks of meat in game bags in the packframe. Legal?
Im talking about deboning, when i debone an animal i cut it up into many pieces or seperate the muscle groups. I even trim out the fat and sinew.The other posts seem to be refering to "Quartering". there is no way i can pack a deer or sheep or goat out in my pack if i dont do this.

[riflebuilder]

we have always deboned sheep and other game that had to be packed a longway. I have not had any issues from CO's that have checked us.

[gone hunting]

If you are deboning the critter and manage to leave attached the required evideance of sex, to one of the pieces and you are also packing out the antlers or horns, is it enough to leave a 6cm2 piece of the hide to the skull plate or does it have to be attached to a piece of meat?

[CNE]

If you are deboning the critter and manage to leave attached the required evideance of sex, to one of the pieces and you are also packing out the antlers or horns, is it enough to leave a 6cm2 piece of the hide to the skull plate or does it have to be attached to a piece of meat?
Again , I beleive the regs state you only need for deer etc...
"(i) that portion of the head which bears the antlers, OR" , not (AND).
I take this as not needing any hide at all.
someone read the regs and correct me if im wrong.

[huntcoop]

Again , I beleive the regs state you only need for deer etc...
"(i) that portion of the head which bears the antlers, OR" , not (AND).
I take this as not needing any hide at all.
someone read the regs and correct me if im wrong.

I understand them as you say.......for deer ya don't need the testicles or hair or jack as long as ya have the antlers. That's what I've been doing for years.....bring out all the meat and the antlers.... no bone, no hide or no balls.

It says OR not AND.

[gone hunting]

I believe the antlers need to be left attached to the carcass, or you have to bring out evidance of sex, naturaly attached and the tail or an identifiable piece of hide (6cm2). I guess that means that if you run into a C/O who can identify it, you're good, if you get a C/O who cann't, you're in trouble.
Bring your sat phone and have your lawyer on speed dial.

[Brett]

Read the regs posted earlier and what I read out of it is,

Identification of, or on 1 part of the animal. Then says Either antlers from OR (genitals of some kind attached to 1 part and hide id)not both or on more than one piece.

so legally a bag of ground meat over a shoulder and the antlers over the other should be enough??
or
a bag of ground meat over the shoulder and another piece at least 6cm squared (smaller than your palm, actually the size of you thumb) with sex id ??

or does "carcass" mean it can't be deboned?

[Fisher-Dude]

regs state;

anyone who posseses or transports the carcass of the following animals must leave naturally attached to the carcass or one part of the carcass in the persons possesion the following listed parts:
for elk, moose and deer
(a) If the animal is male,either
(i) that portion of the head which bears the antlers, OR
(ii)both a testicle or part of the penis,AND the animal's tail or another readily identifiable part of the hide not less than 6 cm2.

sheep goats caribou have different rules

as far as i can tell , and i have done this with deer in the alpine, I can debone a deer to pack it out because I am complying with (a),(i) on page 20 in the regs if i carry the skull (which i beleive to be one part of the carcass) with the antlers naturally atached.

with goats weve just left the testicles on the hide just as with a bear.

with caribou you need a testicle attached, and the antlers.

someone read the regs and comment on this as im curious if ive done this right in the past. and i'd hate to give someone bad advice on something like this.

If you whack the antlers off and don't leave a nut or penile portion on a quarter, you're illegal. The skull cap is not considered a "portion of the carcass". If the antlers are still attached to say, the front half of the animal, you're good to go, but in a deboning situation, you must leave sex attached and hair.

I often leave the hair on a nut to cover both bases at once for species/sex ID. You can put a sandwich bag around it with a zip tie to keep the area clean.

[hunter1947]

Two inches of hair is all that is required to be left on the hind quarters.

[stanway]

The skull cap is not considered a "portion of the carcass".

But it is considered "that portion of the head which bears antlers" as it is stated in the regs.

[Steeleco]

These regs are SOOOOO easy to understand, NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How can they truly enforce some of these rules when there's so many contradictions in the same book????

[Fisher-Dude]

But it is considered "that portion of the head which bears antlers" as it is stated in the regs.

BUT, that portion of the head which bears the antlers MUST be naturally attached to the carcass. :wink: Cuttin' them off at the skull cap does not meet that requirement.

One of our HBC posters got pinched for just that last year.

[stanway]

BUT, that portion of the head which bears the antlers MUST be naturally attached to the carcass. :wink: Cuttin' them off at the skull cap does not meet that requirement.

One of our HBC posters got pinched for just that last year.


I guess I've been lucky (as have many other guys) with the CO's that have checked me, or the other guy was un-lucky.

Questions: At what point does a carcass cease to be a carcass? What is your definition of a carcass? What is the definition of a carcass as stated in the regulations? Is bringing out the head/cape still considered "the carcass"?

I guess either way we get screwed and only the lawyers profit.

[stanway]

Anyone who possesses or transports the
carcass or part of the carcass of the following
animals must leave naturally attached to
the carcass or one part of the carcass in
the person’s possession the following listed
parts:
(1) For elk, moose, and deer:
(a) If the animal is male, either
(i) that portion of the head which
bears the antlers, OR

FD: The way I read and understand the regulations is that the skull plate is one part of the carcass, which proves evidence of sex. In the case of quartering up a deer (and leaving the head in the bush), leaving evidence of sex attached to one part of the quarters is necessary to prove the sex of the animal (male or female).

Of course you may interpret the regs differently as might a CO - which has been known to happen. Like I said before, only the lawyers really benefit in the long run.

[ruttinbuck]

I guess I've been lucky (as have many other guys) with the CO's that have checked me, or the other guy was un-lucky.

Questions: At what point does a carcass cease to be a carcass? What is your definition of a carcass? What is the definition of a carcass as stated in the regulations? Is bringing out the head/cape still considered "the carcass"?

I guess either way we get screwed and only the lawyers profit.

Once the meat is off the bone,it is no longer is a carcass IMO.
We had three deer hanging in camp two years ago.The CO{WL office I believe} arrived to check our licenses and animals. The deer that was whole was skinned to the top of his neck,head stiil attached{evidence of sex} and the other two were game bags of meat with the animals skull plate\antlers available for inspection.He did not even look into the bags for species or evidence of sex,quite satisfied seeing fresh antlers with the meat.His only question was how long of a pack out. I did'nt ask for an interpetation of the law as he was'nt asking for details.Unfortunately the next CO might not see it the same way.All open to interpetation of the law.
Next time I talk to a CO mgr I know I will ask him out right.RB

[stanway]

Once the meat is off the bone,it is no longer is a carcass IMO.
We had three deer hanging in camp two years ago.The CO{WL office I believe} arrived to check our licenses and animals. The deer that was whole was skinned to the top of his neck,head stiil attached{evidence of sex} and the other two were game bags of meat with the animals skull plate\antlers available for inspection.He did not even look into the bags for species or evidence of sex,quite satisfied seeing fresh antlers with the meat.His only question was how long of a pack out. I did'nt ask for an interpetation of the law as he was'nt asking for details.Unfortunately the next CO might not see it the same way.All open to interpetation of the law.
Next time I talk to a CO mgr I know I will ask him out right.RB

That was a very similar situation for us - might have been the same CO. I am very curious to hear what the CO manager has to say when you ask him. Please post it or send me a pm.

Thanks,

James

[Fisher-Dude]

I think it may be clearer in the Wildlife Act. Possessing the carcass without leaving the parts attached is an offence.



Possession of carcass

36 (1) A person who possesses the carcass of any wildlife, whether or not the carcass has been divided, without leaving attached the parts required by regulation to be left attached, commits an offence.

(2) Subsection (1) only applies until the earlier of the following:
(a) the carcass is given to a meatcutter or the owner or operator of a cold storage plant to be recorded in accordance with section 71,
(b) the carcass arrives at the person's normal dwelling place and is butchered and stored there for consumption on the premises, or
(c) the carcass is presented to an employee of the Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks or other person specified by the Lieutenant Governor in Council for inspection.

[stanway]

I think it may be clearer in the Wildlife Act.

Not really. It is still open to interpretation. What is a carcass? What is a divided carcass? Part of a carcass?

[Fisher-Dude]

Ask these guys: :biggrin:


Individual Williams Lake/Empire Valley

Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Vanderhoof/Fort St James Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Quesnel/McLeese Lake Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Cranbrook Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Williams Lake Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Williams Lake Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Fort St John/Cecil Lake Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached

[Ron.C]

Regardless of the definition, I know if I shoot an elk on my own a ways back that requires boning out in order to pack it out, I will only be packing the antlers, as proof of sex/species, no hide. Same goes for a goat except I'm sure I will bring the cape as well. Besides, I will have lots of pictures on the digital camera to show the antlers I am carrying attached to an elk!! I would like to think common sence would prevail.

[Schmaus]

Individual Williams Lake/Empire Valley


Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Vanderhoof/Fort St James Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Quesnel/McLeese Lake Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached

Individual Cranbrook Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Williams Lake Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Williams Lake Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached
Individual Fort St John/Cecil Lake Wildlife Act 36(1) $115 Possess carcass without parts attached


That still doesn't really clear anything up. Maybe these guys never had antlers or evidence of sex with them, all this means is some people got some fines.

[Fisher-Dude]

Here's the kicker: "that portion of the head which bears the antlers" (ie the skull cap) must be attached to the carcass, if that is what is used for ID. Therefore, the skull cap itself is NOT the carcass, as it specifically states that the skull cap must be attached to the carcass.

There. Done. :redface:

Ron.C, instant ticket my friend. A nut with hair weighs about what, 3 ounces? Is it worth a ticket and a WA record for 3 ounces? Cut a 3 ounce piece of belly fat off and give it to the birds to even it out. :p

[stanway]

That still doesn't really clear anything up. Maybe these guys never had antlers or evidence of sex with them, all this means is some people got some fines.

Exactly. I am very curious to hear the position of the CO Manager.

[Fisher-Dude]

Exactly. I am very curious to hear the position of the CO Manager.

Read what I just posted. Try to explain a different interpretation! THAT PORTION OF THE HEAD THAT BEARS THE ANTLERS (not the antlers themselves) MUST BE ATTACHED TO THE CARCASS, if you don't leave a nut and hair on. Definitive.

[stanway]

Here's the kicker: "that portion of the head which bears the antlers" (ie the skull cap) must be attached to the carcass, if that is what is used for ID. Therefore, the skull cap itself is NOT the carcass, as it specifically states that the skull cap must be attached to the carcass.


Where does it state that the skull cap is not PART of the carcass?


Anyone who possesses or transports the
carcass or part of the carcass of the following
animals must leave naturally attached to
the carcass or one part of the carcass in
the person’s possession the following listed
parts:
(1) For elk, moose, and deer:
(a) If the animal is male, either
(i) that portion of the head which
bears the antlers, OR

[ruttinbuck]

I talked to the CO mgr I know and posed the question we are asking.
To the letter of the law:a carcass is a carcass until it is processed,wrapped and in your freezer,boned out or bone in.If a CO stops you or checks your camp and you have deboned an animal,to be in compliance with the wildlife act you must have evidence of sex attached to one quarter and hide attached to all.
IMO this is definately going to be a judgement call on the COs part.Most won't charge you,but they can if you have'nt met the requirements of the WLA.I guess I have been lucky when dealing with de-boned carcasses and COs.RB
FD-no question if the antlers are the evidence of sex they MUST still be attached to the carcass.

[Fisher-Dude]

Where does it state that the skull cap is not PART of the carcass?

When it says that it must be ATTACHED to the carcass. By deductive reasoning, it cannot therefore be part of the carcass on its own. There would be no requirement to leave it attached if it were already PART of the carcass.

Edit - RB, thanks for confirming that!

[stanway]

Yes, thanks Doug for confirming our discussion with the CO Manager.

What is concerning is that one CO is accepting of meat in bags and an antlered skull cap, while the next CO is not. I guess I've been lucky.

[dana]

Just because a CO issues a ticket doesn't mean he is right. Too many hunters don't stand up for themselves on issues such as this and suck it up when they get the ticket. Tell the CO to pound sand and that he will be seeing you in court. Chances are, the CO knows he won't win in a court of law, so the ticket won't be issued. These kind of tickets are no different than speeding tickets. They can be disputed. CO's are trained to read people. If they see you are wishy washy on your stance and you are already appoligizing because you have been made to feel like an idiot, they know that issueing the ticket will mean you will pay and they won't be seeing you in court. If you are backpacking a deer or sheep or whathaveya out of the backcountry and you do the best you can to follow the law as layed out in the regs in regards to keeping the evidence of sex (nuts or antlers) and piece of hide (evidence of species) then that is all you can do. Poachers are Lazy. They don't backpack poached critters out of the backcountry. They shoot them in the headlights of their truck at 2 in the morning after they have spent the night drinking all the booze in their camp. Don't let a CO make you feel like you are a poacher when you are not. This is one of the problems with our system. Too many CO's are too busy chasing the honest guy and not worring about the true scumbags that are out there. A backpack hunter is not the guy they should be harrassing over little shit like 'is the skull plate considered part of the carcus or not.' Tell them to pound sand and go do their jobs.

[Fisher-Dude]

I spent the day on patrol with a CO 2 Saturdays ago. We dealt with a young lady who took Dana's advice. Neither she nor her partner had bothered to get fishing licences. The CO was going to do them a favour, and issue one ticket between them, more as an educational process than a "nail them" process. He even explained to them that he was only going to issue one ticket, and said next time you go fishing, please be sure to buy licences. He was really pleasant and diplomatic - they even admitted they knew they needed licences, but didn't figure they'd ever get checked. Well, the young lady, following Dana's advice, started chirping and told him to go pound sand, and that they would dispute any ticket in court. Guess what? Two tickets were then issued.

Being a belligerent arsehole to the guy who is doing his job trying to protect our resources won't help you in the long run. We also dealt with a couple of folks who stopped us and asked about clarification on a point of law BEFORE they headed out - they did things the smart way. If in doubt, ASK, the COs will be glad to help you. Be a Dick - see Dick get a ticket.

I expect a lot of grey issues will be clarified with the WA re-write. This will no doubt take a while, as nothing happens fast in government. Until then, read your regs, write down any questions you have, and go visit a CO and get the answers you need.

[browningboy]

Man, to me it's so simple and really use common sense, one can try to redefine, re-interate etc.. but really, we need the season to approach as bickering over nuts and antlers! LOL

Very simple- Hiking- leave a nut on
Roadhunting- Nut or antlers
Wow, that was simple- (Pressed my staples button)!

[Jelvis]

A buddy shot a spike buck but it had no nut it was a doe with a spike. We need solomom on this one. Jel-buck-doe?

[Fisher-Dude]

A buddy shot a spike buck but it had no nut it was a doe with a spike. We need solomom on this one. Jel-buck-doe?

Easy. It's considered a buck, as "buck" in the WA definition is a deer bearing "visible boney antlers". I'd be certain not to debone that freak to pack it out though! :shock:

[CNE]

If you whack the antlers off and don't leave a nut or penile portion on a quarter, you're illegal. The skull cap is not considered a "portion of the carcass". If the antlers are still attached to say, the front half of the animal, you're good to go, but in a deboning situation, you must leave sex attached and hair.

I often leave the hair on a nut to cover both bases at once for species/sex ID. You can put a sandwich bag around it with a zip tie to keep the area clean.

Sorry fisher dude I absolutely dissagree withyou on these comments.

I take the skull with the antlers "naturally" attached , The reason I do this is;
(a) if the animal is male , Either
(i) that portion of the head which bears the antlers,OR

the key word is "OR" which means if I have complied with (i) i dont need to worry about (ii).

and I consider the skull to be one part of the carcass, why wouldn't it be? the hoofs are part of the carcass, the hair is, the bones are and so are its eyes in my opinion. I would fight this in any court with anyone any day if i get a ticket for it.
I'm sticking to my way

[switchback]

I spent the day on patrol with a CO 2 Saturdays ago. We dealt with a young lady who took Dana's advice. Neither she nor her partner had bothered to get fishing licences. The CO was going to do them a favour, and issue one ticket between them, more as an educational process than a "nail them" process. He even explained to them that he was only going to issue one ticket, and said next time you go fishing, please be sure to buy licences. He was really pleasant and diplomatic - they even admitted they knew they needed licences, but didn't figure they'd ever get checked. Well, the young lady, following Dana's advice, started chirping and told him to go pound sand, and that they would dispute any ticket in court. Guess what? Two tickets were then issued.

Being a belligerent arsehole to the guy who is doing his job trying to protect our resources won't help you in the long run. We also dealt with a couple of folks who stopped us and asked about clarification on a point of law BEFORE they headed out - they did things the smart way. If in doubt, ASK, the COs will be glad to help you. Be a Dick - see Dick get a ticket.

I expect a lot of grey issues will be clarified with the WA re-write. This will no doubt take a while, as nothing happens fast in government. Until then, read your regs, write down any questions you have, and go visit a CO and get the answers you need.

It would be prudent if the CO's put up road blocks on the way to hunting destinations informing the hunters of the ten most common infractions. Instead of just on the way back from hunting trips.

[Fisher-Dude]

Sorry fisher dude I absolutely dissagree withyou on these comments.

I take the skull with the antlers "naturally" attached , The reason I do this is;
(a) if the animal is male , Either
(i) that portion of the head which bears the antlers,OR

the key word is "OR" which means if I have complied with (i) i dont need to worry about (ii).

and I consider the skull to be one part of the carcass, why wouldn't it be? the hoofs are part of the carcass, the hair is, the bones are and so are its eyes in my opinion. I would fight this in any court with anyone any day if i get a ticket for it.
I'm sticking to my way

Well, you'd get a ticket my friend. Look at the wording, it SPECIFICALLY says that "that portion of the head (the skull cap) MUST be attached to the carcass". Therefore, removing the skull cap from the carcass means it isn't attached to it. You'd lose in court. I interpret law all day long at work, so I know what the judge will look at in the wording. Really, with the number of these tickets that have gone to court arguing ambiguity, S 36 would have been repealed and re-written for enforcement long ago.

CNE, simple question: why don't you just leave a hairy nut on a chunk of the hind, cut the antlers off, and not worry about it? Why is everyone looking for a loophole in the law when it's so friggin' simple to comply?

[Jelvis]

Where I hunt the co's don't even know which roads are closed so how would a hunter. Therefore people are driving on closed roads and the co doesn't even know which ones are closed. lol. How would joe blow know? Jellyno-oneknows that's why they drive on them lol. At first they tried little signs 0 for open and another for closed and missed lots of other little roads that are supposed to be closed so now the signs are all but a few gone and everyone is mixed up. dumb as can be. How would they fine someone when they don't know themselves? lol nuttier than a fruit cake.

[huntcoop]

So cut of the anlers and the upperjaw, as your going to due a European mount. That to me would constitute being part of the carcass. I tend to agree with Dana's point of view.

[CNE]

fisher dude, for a guy that "interprets the law" so much you sure aren't reading my post very well... i dont cut the skull plate! i take the skull( part of the carcass) with the antlers attached "naturally". sometimes i leave the cape on and roll it up, sometimes i take it off. I dont see where you get the idea that its not attached.

If you dont call the skull "part of the carcass" then what the hell is it and where did it come from?

As far as leaving a hairy little nut on, I DONT NEED TO.

[dana]

FD,
It's not a matter of being rude. It's a matter of standing up for yourself when you've done nothing wrong. Being from the Recruitment Camp you should be well aware that one of the leading causes for hunter drop out is the fact that there are so many damn rules that you need a law degree in order to hunt. And even at that, one CO may see things different than the way you with the law degree see things. Many hunters are worried that they will somehow break the rules without even knowing it, so they say, why bother? And give up hunting to take up golf. There are CO's that push the line to get the ticket. I have a friend that was hunting right from his camp. He had a truck and camper. He waited for legal light, got out of his camper, put on his pack, threw the clip in his rifle and then, oh oh, he felt the urgency to have his morning constitution NOW! He leaned the rifle against the camper and hurried in to use the port-a-poty. While sitting there, he hears a vehicle pull up in camp. He finishes is business and steps outside where he is met by a CO. The CO asked if the rifle leaning against the camper was loaded. He said, yes and explained the situation. The CO didn't care and just wrote him a ticket for having a loaded weapon touching a vehicle. Camper on the vehicle means it is part of the vehicle. My friend didn't contest. Too me, this is unacceptable for a CO to show no regard to common sense. Currently I understand one CO is giving guys tickets for improperly canceling their tags if the entire triagle isn't cut out of the slot on their tag. Now cutting your tag isn't good enough. Now you must make sure every bit of paper is gone out of that triangle. If the CO tried that on me, I'd would seriously tell him to pound sand. But many hunters are insecure and receive a ticket because they don't stand up for themselves. You don't need to be afraid of the CO's. The majority of them are really good guys. Very personable. But when they accuse you of doing wrong when you have done everything in your power right, that is when you need to stand up and say, 'Sorry pal, we'll let a judge decide if you or I are right. See ya in court.'
But, again FD is the All in All of knowledge on this site. He KNOWS the rules. So if he says the skullplate isn't considered part of the carcus, he MUST be right. Funny that a skullplate is indeed considered part of a carcus if you found an old lionkill with nothing but the skullplate and antlers left. ;)

[Fisher-Dude]

So CNE, you're packing out the whole head then? That may be different then. When you said you disagreed with my post where I talked about whacking the antlers off, it was safe to assume you were arguing a different scenario, ie cutting the skull cap off.

You'd likely meet the letter of the law, if you had a bunch of deboned chunks to go along with the whole head. Not sure why you'd want to pack 4+ lbs of head/skull instead of 3 ounces of nut, but that's your choice. :-P

[dana]

FD,
Maybe try hunting during an antler restriction season. Would you just leave a nut then? Use the brain that God gave ya man. ;)

[Brambles]

In the LEFT corner we have Fisher-Dude Fighting out of Kelowna B.C.. In the RIGHT corner we have Dana fighting out of Clearwater B.C. both these fighters have a combined height of 10 Ft:lol:

I want this to be a fair fight, Gentleman you must obey my rules, no biting, eye gouging,fishhooking and certainly no shots below the belt.

Now both of you go back to your corners and when the bells ring, COME OUT FIGHTING:biggrin:

[dana]

Brambles,
Every year I make it a mission of mine to find someone that really needs a Cyberasswhoppin'. In the past I've had guys like Danny or on MM there was this one crazy kid named Cass. This year its FD's turn. Cyberbullies like FD are really easy. Just picture the bully from A Christmas Story getting his ass handed to him. I maybe a little guy, but I don't put up with guys constantly slamming other hunters all the time and above all else slamming me or my family like FD constantly does. And get this, he feels he's being picked on. LOL!

[mcrae]

FD,
Maybe try hunting during an antler restriction season. Would you just leave a nut then? Use the brain that God gave ya man. ;)


I think what he is saying is instead of packing out the whole head leave the nut attached and just pack the antlers out ..;) Cuts down on some weight if your not hauling the entire head out...

I really don't see what the deal is I leave a nut attached and hide as well not worth the hassle to do otherwise IMO..

[Fisher-Dude]

FD,
Maybe try hunting during an antler restriction season. Would you just leave a nut then? Use the brain that God gave ya man. ;)

No, the antlers must accompany the species licence. Duh. Put words in my mouth.


In the LEFT corner we have Fisher-Dude Fighting out of Kelowna B.C.. In the RIGHT corner we have Dana fighting out of Clearwater B.C. both these fighters have a combined height of 10 Ft:lol:


Bubbles, you mean Dana is only 4 feet tall? :razz:

[Brambles]

Brambles,
Every year I make it a mission of mine to find someone that really needs a Cyberasswhoppin'. In the past I've had guys like Danny or on MM there was this one crazy kid named Cass. This year its FD's turn. Cyberbullies like FD are really easy. Just picture the bully from A Christmas Story getting his ass handed to him. I maybe a little guy, but I don't put up with guys constantly slamming other hunters all the time and above all else slamming me or my family like FD constantly does. And get this, he feels he's being picked on. LOL!


I didn't ring the bell yet, hold on a minute:tongue:

[Brambles]

Brambles, you mean Dana is only 4 feet tall? :razz:


I don't think your too far off, but if your implying your 6ft... HA. I think your closer to 4 ft then 6 ft:wink:

[stanway]

Look at the wording, it SPECIFICALLY says that "that portion of the head (the skull cap) MUST be attached to the carcass".

Okay, I looked at the wording right out of the current copy of the regs:


Anyone who possesses or transports the
carcass or part of the carcass of the following
animals must leave naturally attached to
the carcass or one part of the carcass in
the person’s possession the following listed
parts:
(1) For elk, moose, and deer:
(a) If the animal is male, either
(i) that portion of the head which
bears the antlers, OR

And I go back to the part where it says "the carcass or one part of the carcass"...the skull and for argument sake, the skull cap is "one part of the carcass".

I have the utmost respect for CO's as they have a tough job to do, but I would definitely dispute a ticket based on a loose interpretation of this law.

[Fisher-Dude]

Nice edit on your name, Bubbles! LMAO!

[Brambles]

I really don't see what the deal is I leave a nut attached and hide as well not worth the hassle to do otherwise IMO..


Didn't you know, its customary on a backpack hunt to eat the oysters in camp the night of the kill. It ensures the bucks genetics will stay on the mountain. Actually guy with the heaviest rifle has to eat them...... NOW you know why I own a gun thats 5lbs 10oz;)

[Brambles]

Nice edit on your name, Bubbles! LMAO!

Geez first its Brambly-Bum and now Bubbles. You'd think you guys were gay or something.:tongue:

I got rid of my glasses years ago:grin: no more fishbowls for me

[CNE]

If you are expected to keep an animal together with the sex or antlers attached then is it really legal to debone and pack an animal out?

Thanks,

So..... Did we answer the question?


Answer, yes you can debone and pack out with the following,

-skull with antlers attached for deer,elk and moose,(teeth for compulsory inspection on elk reg 2&8 and moose in reg 4)

- horns(compulsory inspection) nuts/utter attached to something(most likely the hide) for goats

-antlers AND nuts/utter attached to piece of hide for compulsory inspection

- Skull with horns for sheep.

And of course dont forget the MEAT!

ALL AGREE ?

[o2fish2day]

Guys, all useful info. What a ride!

You just confirmed with me again that the regs are nothing but an inconsistant contradiction that even the people enforcing it can't figure out. Did I ever tell you about the letter I sent to the Ministry about the legality of snaring rabbits with a hunting license...appears some COs were charging individuals with illegal trapping...Some even went to court and lost...but in the end the ministry said it was legal and the COs were misinterpreting the law....

Had another CO tell me to use target arrows for hunting geese as they are cheaper. Next weekend another CO holds me for 15min while he combs the regs because he is sure that what I was doing was illegal. Being a newby I didn't know target arrows were a problem. (anyways apparently the CO was from Alberta where target arrows are illegal and you have to use blunts but that isn't the case in BC)


It's so confusing even the judges are misreading it. If I ever get a ticket I think I would get a lawyer...just for the fun of watching the circus it would unravel!

You would think they would sit down and do something about this as it happens time and time again and one of these days all these fined hunters will present a class action lawsuit against the government for one of these grossly misinterpreted regs that when misunderstood for years.

Anyways, thanks for the replys. It was interesting. I actaully think it's somewhat intentional. Imagine how many hunters wouldn't get tickets if they actually could count the regs on one hand....

[.308win]

Anyone who possesses or transports the
carcass or part of the carcass of the following
animals must leave naturally attached to
the carcass or one part of the carcass in
the person’s possession the following listed
parts:
(1) For elk, moose, and deer:
(a) If the animal is male, either
(i) that portion of the head which
bears the antlers, OR

"That portion of the head which bears the antlers".......Correct me if i'm wrong, but is that not the skull plate!!:confused:

Perry

[Everett]

Twice I have had CO's give me hassle because my triangle wasn't clean thats what happens when use a knife. First time I smiled and said sorry and he was an ass threatning dire consequences but did nothing. Time number two I told him to piss off and he backed down and apoligized.
Most CO's are nice people but they are buerecrats employed by the goverment so they have raise revenue like all the rest. So don't get in there way when they need to make quota.

[killman]

OK here is a question, What is the point on leaving evidence of sex on a calf moose? (other than not getting a ticket) It doesn't matter what sex it is.

[dana]

Everett,
Get this, if you acidently had 2 tags together when you make that first cut, go "oh shit, lucky I didn't cut the whole thing", leave the triangle intact on the bottom tag as it only had a small slice in it, some CO's consider that a canceled tag. But then some think that if a small piece of paper is left behind on one triangle, then it isn't canceled? WTF??? I personally try to be very careful when cutting my tags, as I'd hate to slip with the knife and cut out too much. I certainly am not going to worry about a small bit of white left in the triangle.

[dana]

Anyone who possesses or transports the
carcass or part of the carcass of the following
animals must leave naturally attached to
the carcass or one part of the carcass in
the person’s possession the following listed
parts:
(1) For elk, moose, and deer:
(a) If the animal is male, either
(i) that portion of the head which
bears the antlers, OR

"That portion of the head which bears the antlers".......Correct me if i'm wrong, but is that not the skull plate!!:confused:

Perry

Yup, that is the PORTION of the head. Not the whole head as some of these legal experts claim, but the PORTION. I would call that the skull plate, but what the hell do I know. I am only a Wood Tick. :roll:

[Fisher-Dude]

I guess this isn't clear enough on the back of tags:

"Cut out and completely remove the applicable notches on the edge of the licence..."

"WARNING - Licence alteration and/or improper cancellation can lead to prosecution. Pre-cancellation - partial cancellation - over cancellation are all considered to be improper cancellation and automatically render a licence null and void"

Somebody should call a CO and ask him what "completely remove" means. :roll::roll:

[Jelvis]

Bring back the old metal clips that you clipped together. Then there is no questions. lol. Jel-heavy metal

[hunter1947]

Bring back the old metal clips that you clipped together. Then there is no questions. lol. Jel-heavy metal
I can see that you and me come from the old school Jelly beans LOL.

[KevinB]

and I consider the skull to be one part of the carcass, why wouldn't it be? the hoofs are part of the carcass, the hair is, the bones are and so are its eyes in my opinion. I would fight this in any court with anyone any day if i get a ticket for it.
I'm sticking to my way

Even with the best of intentions you would likely lose unless the judge thought it was all pointless and just tossed it out.

If you're deboning and packing out a deer in pieces, you need to leave a nut or the penis and a small piece of hair, attached to one of the pieces. You only need the antlers if required to do so by antler restriction seasons, and they don't need to be attached to anything. Otherwise in a GOS you can leave the head and antlers in the bush if you want to.

I would have agreed with you a few years ago, that the head with the antlers attached was sufficient for evidence of both sex and species. I found out the hard way that the head, if it has been separated from the rest of the deer, even if it is complete, and has all the hair, antlers, lips, twinkly eyes, etc., is not a part of the carcass. And as such on it's own anything attached to just the head is not considered evidence of sex unless it is still attached to the rest of the deer.

I got a $115 ticket a couple of years ago, for having an entire deboned deer in my pack in the back of my truck, with no genitals attached to any of the pieces, nor any hair attached to any of the pieces (for whatever reason I cut everything off which I usually don't do). I had the entire head strapped onto the pack with it, so as I interpreted things I was complying with the law just fine. But, the CO still gave me a ticket for failure to leave evidence of sex attached to any part of the carcass. He said the head wasn't considered part of the carcass, what was to stop me from storing an old deer head in the freezer and using it to get deboned does through road checks? I said what's to keep me from doing that with a chunk of hindquarter with a nut stuck to it? He didn't like that but I thought it was a good question.

I was of the opinion that the head, if it was all in one piece, was part of the carcass, and that then "the bony part of the skull bearing the antlers" attached to the head with all of its hair, was proper evidence of sex and species, etc. I also figured that the skull plate with antlers by itself was not evidence of sex, since the regs refer to the skullplate needing to be attached to a part of the carcass to be evidence of species.

I promptly phoned one of the folks in Victoria responsible for legislation/enforcement, with the idea of getting the reg. clarified and maybe taking it to court.

The Ministry person I spoke with said that indeed the head was not considered to be part of the carcass, unless it was still attached to the carcass. The "carcass" referred to basically the quarters or all the parts of deboned meat. They had previously gone to the trouble of getting a legal opinion of the regs, and the legal opinion was that indeed the head was not part of what would be considered the carcass for purposes of the wildlife act. She said she agreed it was all very confusing! Sounds stupid I know but there you have it. Right or wrong in intent, you'd likely lose in court since the law is the law even if it is hard to interpret and silly. They even clarified for me that technically, you needed the 6cm piece of hair on every last piece (for species evidence), I see that part of the regs has been changed to specify that the evidence of species only needs to be on ONE of the parts.

[mcrae]

Didn't you know, its customary on a backpack hunt to eat the oysters in camp the night of the kill. It ensures the bucks genetics will stay on the mountain. Actually guy with the heaviest rifle has to eat them...... NOW you know why I own a gun thats 5lbs 10oz;)


Your a funny guy:biggrin:.....

[CNE]

I guess this isn't clear enough on the back of tags:

"Cut out and completely remove the applicable notches on the edge of the licence..."

"WARNING - Licence alteration and/or improper cancellation can lead to prosecution. Pre-cancellation - partial cancellation - over cancellation are all considered to be improper cancellation and automatically render a licence null and void"

Somebody should call a CO and ask him what "completely remove" means. :roll::roll:

I could never color inside the lines, so how the heck do you expect me to do it with a knife???:cry:

[Fisher-Dude]

I could never color inside the lines, so how the heck do you expect me to do it with a knife???:cry:

I don't leave home without it. :wink:


http://www.swissarmy.com/images/ProductCatalog/vm/vm_54111_sol_a02.jpg

[CNE]

I don't leave home without it. :wink:



http://www.swissarmy.com/images/ProductCatalog/vm/vm_54111_sol_a02.jpg

Looks more like Drug Paraphenalia to me.... explains alot!!!:razz: You know, I think you can get a ticket for that too.

[gone hunting]

So much bullshit, so little game.

[CNE]

So much bullshit, so little game.
It'll all be over in 30 days.

[Toppack]

What about sheep and goats! Same requirements for sex and identification?

[Fisher-Dude]

Looks more like Drug Paraphenalia to me.... explains alot!!!:razz: You know, I think you can get a ticket for that too.

That's funny, they were handed out at my previous employment as company advertising with the logo on them, and we were all laughing about them being perfect for the dopers who worked there. Me - I just get that Rocky Mountain High, man! 8)

[boonerbuck]

I spent the day on patrol with a CO 2 Saturdays ago. We dealt with a young lady who took Dana's advice. Neither she nor her partner had bothered to get fishing licences. The CO was going to do them a favour, and issue one ticket between them, more as an educational process than a "nail them" process. He even explained to them that he was only going to issue one ticket, and said next time you go fishing, please be sure to buy licences. He was really pleasant and diplomatic - they even admitted they knew they needed licences, but didn't figure they'd ever get checked. Well, the young lady, following Dana's advice, started chirping and told him to go pound sand, and that they would dispute any ticket in court. Guess what? Two tickets were then issued.

Being a belligerent arsehole to the guy who is doing his job trying to protect our resources won't help you in the long run. We also dealt with a couple of folks who stopped us and asked about clarification on a point of law BEFORE they headed out - they did things the smart way. If in doubt, ASK, the COs will be glad to help you. Be a Dick - see Dick get a ticket.

I expect a lot of grey issues will be clarified with the WA re-write. This will no doubt take a while, as nothing happens fast in government. Until then, read your regs, write down any questions you have, and go visit a CO and get the answers you need.

Who is this CO who doesnt want to do his job? I'd like toi know....

Letting off a group of people go who are fishing without a licence pisses me off after a friend of mine who left his in the tackle box in the boat moored 200 yards of shore in camp gets a ticket after offering to take the dighy out to retrieve it for him.:-o

If you are fishing or hunting without a licence *absolutely* you should be fined. A CO who gives a pass on this to anyone but a young child is not doing the least of his duties. Further more how does the Ministry justify giving tickets to other *Polite Poachers*?

[boonerbuck]

I was given a warning when I was 20, my second year hunting because I cut off evidence of sex. I filled my calf elk any sex tag and just figured because it was any sex... I was fine. The warning served as a lesson. A ticket could have been justified even though the sex was on the ground underneath the animal at the pole.

He waited all day around camp to teach me this lesson.lol

[mountainman]

One thing to remember for all you folks coming into Alberta to hunt, ensure when you tag and clean your game make sure that your tag and evidence of sex are on the same side!!!!!!!
This isn't as important if you are leaving the animal whole but if you ever 1/2 it then it really comes into play.

Not sure how they react to a deboned carcass and tag placement.

[quadrakid]

you go up north to pg to hunt with your old friend who lives there,area you hunt only open for spike fork.he shoots one and you take it back to his place,all legal. next day you go out and shoot a small moose thats not a spike fork,no problem, go get buddy,s fork head and your legal. this is why head must be attatched to carcass. this is not very clear in the regs,i know because i used to think it was ok to have antlers as proof and was quite surprised last year to see a guy get busted for just that. i read regs cover to cover every year and did not pick up on it,they should spell it out clearer.

[Fisher-Dude]

So Booner is all over a CO who "isn't doing his job" because he doesn't nail everyone 100%, yet he tells about the warning ticket he got when he was about the same age as the people in my story. By God, Booner, I really hope you went to court and argued that they should have given you a fine instead of teaching you a lesson with a warning! :?

[boonerbuck]

So Booner is all over a CO who "isn't doing his job" because he doesn't nail everyone 100%, yet he tells about the warning ticket he got when he was about the same age as the people in my story. By God, Booner, I really hope you went to court and argued that they should have given you a fine instead of teaching you a lesson with a warning! :?

How does me questioning a CO who lets people off who admitted they *know* they are fishing without a licence turn into questioning a CO who doesnt nail everyone 100%?

Is this some kind of game? How is my warning when I was younger the same? I didnt know and it is a common mistake. Your story has people admitting they didnt care about the law and deciding to literally go poaching. Letting them off encourages further illegal activities.

IMO, if you admit to knowing you need a licence but chose to fish without one you should be fined and forfeit your gear. A fine at the very least. It's a black and white regulation and as your story goes there was no misunderstanding of the regulations.

[Fisher-Dude]

I have a relative in law enforcement who explained to me the concept of "selling a ticket". For example, you get pulled over for speeding, you get a ticket, and the cop notices your cracked windshield...should that cop in every instance impound your vehicle and have it towed for the cracked windshield and ticket you for the safety violation as well? Or, should he just tell you to get the crack fixed while you're signing your speeding ticket? He knows that if you're aware that he's given you a break on the windshield that you'll pay your speeding ticket and that'll be it, instead of appealing it.

The COs will employ a similar method when dealing with common infractions, ie ticketing you for no licence but warning you about that barbed hook. It keeps the case out of the courts, and keeps our COs in the field where they belong, instead of wasting time and money in the courtroom.

Now, if you're caught pitlamping does out the window of the truck, on private property, with a beer between your legs and a joint in your mouth, expect the charge list to be as long as your arm. In the very serious cases, they will throw the book at you and you'll get written on every violation, the same way the cops do.

[BiG Boar]

Ya I love it when the cop hands you the ticket. Its like what eles will he say he is letting me off for. In all my 20+ ticekts in 10 years I have never had a cop say hes not letting me off for something eles. Oh you were clocked at 250km/h but I also noticed that your motorcycle had illegal signal lights, so I am going to let you off that one. However you are still getting the 460 dollar ticket. Ya, thanks man. Now we are friends.....