The future of hunting and shooting sports - 2008

[GoatGuy]

If you're so inclined.


http://www.nssf.org/share/PDF/Future_of_Hunting_and_Shooting_Sports_Report.pdf


Came out last month.


Feel free to discuss.:biggrin:

[GoatGuy]

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[Stone Sheep Steve]

I have to print off a copy for the bathroom;).

SSS

[LOC]

Haven't finished reading it all yet.. 255 pages!

[Steeleco]

The future will be here before I'm done reading it!!

[GoatGuy]

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[Mr. Dean]

Sir Goat;
I get nothing when clicking the link.

You pullin' a fast one on me? :smile:

[Fisher-Dude]

Sir Goat;
I get nothing when clicking the link.

You pullin' a fast one on me? :smile:

Worked fine for me.

[Mr. Dean]

All I get is a blank page.

I'll catch the debate - IF you guys get reading!!!

[Sieg-MM]

Got the Coles Notes version GG? Or why don't you put it in an executive summary for us :)

[Mr. Dean]

Can't believe no ones reading this (thanks friendly!). This IS interesting stuff and should be in everyones bathroom!

I've only gotten through 50 odd pages but there is a definite connecting of the dots when comparing it (document) to my life experiences of growing up in a non-hunting family.

One thing that's going to change is that for every kid that I have invited out hunting/shooting (never taken up on one yet), is going to have a subscription of an outdoors mag being delivered to their house.

As a kid, I would DROOL over the pages of Field and Stream, and others of the like. Perception plays a BIG part in recruitment. A gift such as this goes a long way in peeking interest.


....And it looks as if time and $$$ is better spent on things like this instead of being used for lobbying youth archery seasons. As good as them intentions are, we shoud be concentrating our efforts at other more productive measures when recruitment is being cited.



Lots more..... please read.

[GoatGuy]

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[dana]

Looks like dad's come out on top eh? But I betcha you guys skipped that part.

[Mr. Dean]

What part, what pg.?

[6616]

There's no arguement against the fact that Dad's bringing their children into the sport is the single biggest source of recruitment. Youth and Jr seasons along with many other recruitment strategies that increase chances of success sure do help, and also make it much easier for those Dad's to keep their children interested.

Even though the above represents the single largest source of recruitment, there are other sources, and right now we cannot afford to ignore any viable sources. I'm sure most will agree the sport needs all the recruitment we can get.

[horshur]

RECRUITMENT

�� The “natural” path of hunting and shooting initiation occurs
at a young age, and the beginner typically is first taken
hunting or shooting by his or her father or other male family
member.

Action Item 12. Be aware that efforts to recruit new hunters
and shooters outside of the traditional hunting and shooting
community will be very difficult; account for this when
prioritizing recruitment efforts. Those from outside the
hunting and shooting community should not be the first
targets in a recruitment campaign.
Action Item 13. Understand that higher avidity in hunting and
shooting is linked to younger ages of initiation, and this, in
turn, means that recruitment programs have a window of
opportunity among potential participants under the age of 16.
Action Item 14. Be aware that higher avidity is linked to being
mentored by one’s father; conversely, there is a higher dropout
rate among those initiated by somebody other than their
father.


Aparently dad is doing what works in real time rather than goverment time. The money he spends is real equity. When he wakes his boy up and loads him in the truck to get to the stand before dark just like his old man did as well. He is instilling the passion that a goverment initiative could never ever pretend.

While we are seemingly being lobbied for support to change government policies in order to help ourselves...those who just took there kids hunting were doing what works all along inspite of the so called deterents.

so that will remain my focus.

[Fisher-Dude]

I'm not sure if there has been a demographic shift of hunters in Vermont the same as there has been here in BC. Here, the average hunter age has moved from 20s - 30s to 45s - 55s and beyond. At this age, many of us are "spawned out", so to speak, and don't have the young kids in our families that are ripe to introduce to the sport - our kids are now in their 20s and 30s and have chosen their pursuits already. We need to get the youngsters in the 10 - 20 year range hooked on it, as the earlier they are exposed to it, the more likely they will stick with it. We know dads are the best recruiters - we just don't have enough dads hunting now with kids in that 10 - 20 year range. Therefore, we need to look outside our own families for recruits.

[horshur]

I'm not sure if there has been a demographic shift of hunters in Vermont the same as there has been here in BC. Here, the average hunter age has moved from 20s - 30s to 45s - 55s and beyond. At this age, many of us are "spawned out", so to speak, and don't have the young kids in our families that are ripe to introduce to the sport - our kids are now in their 20s and 30s and have chosen their pursuits already. We need to get the youngsters in the 10 - 20 year range hooked on it, as the earlier they are exposed to it, the more likely they will stick with it. We know dads are the best recruiters - we just don't have enough dads hunting now with kids in that 10 - 20 year range. Therefore, we need to look outside our own families for recruits.

you are dreaming..right there in what I posted was the suggestion of where money and effort should be prioritized first and yet you plan to pull a hare from a hat instead.

Nobody is going to lend out there 10 year old for a 50 year old man to take hunting..specially in this day and age.

You cannot reinvent the wheel...If anything can be done it will be done within the parameters of family and close friends.

Thus the most effective influence a common person can do is take his own children hunting who may then take there friends one day who may then take there own children.

Family and friends are the foundation. Imagine that!!~!!

[Mr. Dean]

FD and horshur, I agree with both of ya. I think that recruitment NEEDS to come from both resources.

For some reason, over the years, Dads kids haven't been getting involved. If they were, why are our #'s dwindling?
I also see many walking in my shoes around here - 'Older' people that have recently taken up hunting coming from non hunting families.

Both groups should be targeted IMO. If I read right, each group has considerable offerings when looking at what makes up hunters.


Horshur, don't forget that there's a lot of shooters that don't hunt and ther's also a lot of people that would 'like' to shoot.

[Fisher-Dude]

you are dreaming..right there in what I posted was the suggestion of where money and effort should be prioritized first and yet you plan to pull a hare from a hat instead.

Nobody is going to lend out there 10 year old for a 50 year old man to take hunting..specially in this day and age.

You cannot reinvent the wheel...If anything can be done it will be done within the parameters of family and close friends.

Thus the most effective influence a common person can do is take his own children hunting who may then take there friends one day who may then take there own children.

Family and friends are the foundation. Imagine that!!~!!

Wonderful attitude. Words like "nobody" and "cannot" means we may as well give up and take up knitting.

[horshur]

Wonderful attitude. Words like "nobody" and "cannot" means we may as well give up and take up knitting.



I tell you if you are gonna depend on a complete stranger to lend you there ten year old to go hunting with. You will have lots of time to knit this fall.

..however I plan on hunting with friends and family this season.

[dana]

Imagine that, us dad's who are leading by example, and getting slammed all the while by the Recruitment Camp, are indeed the ones truly making a difference. Hmmm, yet the Recruitment Camp continues in their attacks. Do you think they are destined to fail? I certainly do. If they can't support and encourage the dad that's going above and beyond to keep his childern in the heritage, then do you think they will do any better with the non-hunting segment of the population? We don't need more guys abandoning their families to pursue the glory of some political wildlife organization. We instead need more dads putting their families as their main focus. Not rocket science, but what do I know. I'm just a dumb forestry worker. ;)

[Avalanche123]

For some reason, over the years, Dads kids haven't been getting involved. If they were, why are our #'s dwindling?

The reason IMHO is right in front of our eyes......the damn computer and the internet.

There was no such thing when I was a kid. We humans are lazy by nature so few teens want to drag their butts out of bed in the dark when they can simulate their fun while sitting in front of the PC.....

Fortunately I have friends that lent me out their 11 yr old for a five day sheep hunt a few years ago. Now every year he is keen to go hunting so that is one success story! :)

[Fisher-Dude]

The reason IMHO is right in front of our eyes......the damn computer and the internet.

There was no such thing when I was a kid. We humans are lazy by nature so few teens want to drag their butts out of bed in the dark when they can simulate their fun while sitting in front of the PC.....

Fortunately I have friends that lent me out their 11 yr old for a five day sheep hunt a few years ago. Now every year he is keen to go hunting so that is one success story! :)

A lot of validity in what you say A123. Once we get them out there, and the bug bites them, we have a good chance of their continuing to enjoy hunting.

According to some, however, nobody would ever let you take their 11 year old out. Please don't tell any parents, but we're putting 160 army cadets through a hunting simulation game this weekend to see if we can pique their interest...wouldn't want them to think we're 50 year old perverts or anything. :roll:

[dana]

Yup, a game. That'll hook them for sure. Why don't we just buy the latest Cabella's video game for a bunch of kids and declare that we have just made a bunch of new hunters out of them.:lol:

FD, you need to swallow your pride and actually see the reality that is right in front of your eyes. You are a great example of someone who will never be effective because you can't admit when you are wrong. But instead you will continue on your blind merry little way making enemies out of the ones that should have been your allies.

[Fisher-Dude]

You're right Dana, I'm wrong. Rather than spend some time talking about hunting and fishing with 160 kids this weekend, I'd be much better off to sit at home on the internet and whine about what other people are doing to try to keep interest up in the sports. I'll call and cancel it now. Thanks for your input.

[dana]

FD,
Why do you have a problem with dads doing what dads should do? You have gone out of your way this past year to slam me and my family again and again saying that raising our kids in the hunting heritage is not enough. Yet this report seems to indicate differently. What you don't take into account is how many people guys like me have actually got hooked on hunting, not on a simulator, but hunting. Again and again you beat your breasts and say I'm the braggart yet you spout how much YOU do for the good of the future of hunting. You lift yourself up on a pedistle and piss on the working guys like me and my brother who are indeed doing what this report says we should do. Why? Has this helped your cause? By pissing on guys who are leading by example, you are instead hurting your cause. On another thread one member said I shouldn't judge the BCWF by the actions of a few of it's members. I say, why wouldn't I? Your actions have changed my mind concerning the BCWF and I'm sure I'm not the only one. As someone who represents BCWF, you should be above reproach when it comes to their views. If you are slamming hunters continously on these sites, it reflects badly on the organization. You guys don't give the internet enough credit. It is a communication device that can be used for good and bad. From what I've seen from you, the bad is being reflected more times than the good. So, go ahead and pat yourself on the back some more and declare how much you are doing for the hunting community. For me, I'll continue to take my kids out in the great outdoors and pass on to them my love and desire for hunting.

[igojuone]

Here is BC's version of the future of hunting. It is only 32 pages and directly related to hunting in BC.



http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070607_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't represent the BCWF. I'm only a member of the organization, along with 30,000 other people who aren't too cheap to put $40 towards helping keep opportunities open for other hunters and fishers.

You can try as hard as you can to put words in my mouth, as I never said that dads taking their kids hunting was a bad thing. What I did say was that we don't have enough of those dads, so we need to look to get other kids involved. What I did say was that those who choose not to support the organizations that are putting efforts into ensuring programs for kids, but would rather call down the efforts of those volunteers, are short on solutions and long on whining. That's hurt your fragile ego. Sorry 'bout that, Princess. :-P

[dana]

Liar! You did indeed say that my raising my kids in the hunting lifestyle does nothing for the future of hunting. I ain't putting words in your mouth. I seem to also remember the other imfamous words of yours, "You and your brother are ****ing the hunting for your kids", all over the fact that we disagreed with one thing you said. We were actually on your side at the time. But you have pushed us the opposite direction. Your attacks of been constant since then. You have repeatedly told me I do nothing for the good of hunting. You have repeatedly told me that the only way to make a difference is to fork over 40 bucks and have a hero like yourself take the cause further. You have repeatedly boasted about what You have done and have asked again and again what I have done. When I say my focus is on my kids, you have repeatedly scoffed at that and told me that does nothing for the future of hunting. Sooo, why do you have such distain for dads that are leading by example?

[Fisher-Dude]

Good luck with your season in 2008.

[horshur]

All means of exposing people to hunting in a positive light should be explored, but it is
unlikely that any introductory method will be developed that will be better than simply going hunting with a seasoned hunter. Research shows that the vast majority of hunters

were introduced to the activity by a close relative, usually a father, uncle or grandfather.
It is vital that experienced hunters take the time to introduce others to hunting.

The Fish and Wildlife Branch and the BC Wildlife Federation should do everything possible to encourage
experienced hunters to take their children, their children’s friends, their spouses
and their friends hunting. Articles encouraging this can be printed in the regulations and
outdoors magazines. The message can be propagated through hunting clubs and it is
even possible that incentives could be developed. For example, an experienced hunter
could “sponsor” a new hunter and be given a discount on their hunting licence.

R e comme n d at i o n :

Encourage established hunters to introduce others to hunting. Explore
options for providing incentives.

So there you have it again.Hmmm?

[Fisher-Dude]

All means of exposing people to hunting in a positive light should be explored, but it is


unlikely that any introductory method will be developed that will be better than simply going hunting with a seasoned hunter. Research shows that the vast majority of hunters
were introduced to the activity by a close relative, usually a father, uncle or grandfather.
It is vital that experienced hunters take the time to introduce others to hunting.


The Fish and Wildlife Branch and the BC Wildlife Federation should do everything possible to encourage
experienced hunters to take their children, their children’s friends, their spouses
and their friends hunting. Articles encouraging this can be printed in the regulations and
outdoors magazines. The message can be propagated through hunting clubs and it is
even possible that incentives could be developed. For example, an experienced hunter
could “sponsor” a new hunter and be given a discount on their hunting licence.
R e comme n d at i o n :
Encourage established hunters to introduce others to hunting. Explore
options for providing incentives.


So there you have it again.Hmmm?


Can't argue with that. Never did. I'm an established hunter who wants to introduce 160 kids to it this weekend. There's no way we can take 160 hunting at once, besides the fact that there's nothing open right now anyways. But, we might get a few of them interested in it - and if we get one or two new recruits, it makes it all worthwhile. Maybe you and Steve should show up and help out? You don't have to be a club member to do so.

[horshur]

Can't argue with that. Never did. I'm an established hunter who wants to introduce 160 kids to it this weekend. There's no way we can take 160 hunting at once, besides the fact that there's nothing open right now anyways. But, we might get a few of them interested in it - and if we get one or two new recruits, it makes it all worthwhile. Maybe you and Steve should show up and help out? You don't have to be a club member to do so.

sir I wish you the best..really I do.

the military kids are a better bet as well..my best friend is military and a hunter and did not come by it traditionaly.

[Phreddy]

I work with a lot of kids as a family support counsellor, and a lot of them are being raised by a single mother. With that in mind, I worked hard to get these kids out to the range and out fishing. The administrator of the society I work through hit the roof when she found out and I now have a letter on my file telling me that any more instances of taking kids to the range will result in my contract being terminated.
However, after spending many years teaching families to think outside the box, I've got those mothers taking CORE program and going to the range with their sons. If I just happen (nudge, nudge, wink wink) ;-) to be at the range when they are there, I certainly don't mind helping them show their kid how to properly handle a gun and even let them fire a few shots with mine. Keep in mind that these kids don't have a dad to take them out and teach them, and they are already facing hardships that no kid should have to go through.
I got a call from BCWF last night and I will be taking the CORE instructors program in August in Kelowna, and one I've got it, I'm going to approach MCF with the idea of putting these kids through the course, using the "kids trained safe and responsible firearm handling and use don't mug little old ladies or get into drive-bys when they grow up" angle.

[6616]

I work with a lot of kids as a family support counsellor, and a lot of them are being raised by a single mother. With that in mind, I worked hard to get these kids out to the range and out fishing. The administrator of the society I work through hit the roof when she found out and I now have a letter on my file telling me that any more instances of taking kids to the range will result in my contract being terminated.
However, after spending many years teaching families to think outside the box, I've got those mothers taking CORE program and going to the range with their sons. If I just happen (nudge, nudge, wink wink) ;-) to be at the range when they are there, I certainly don't mind helping them show their kid how to properly handle a gun and even let them fire a few shots with mine. Keep in mind that these kids don't have a dad to take them out and teach them, and they are already facing hardships that no kid should have to go through.
I got a call from BCWF last night and I will be taking the CORE instructors program in August in Kelowna, and one I've got it, I'm going to approach MCF with the idea of putting these kids through the course, using the "kids trained safe and responsible firearm handling and use don't mug little old ladies or get into drive-bys when they grow up" angle.

Good job Phreddy, I'll bet if you asked around you could get one of the local BCWF clubs to sponsor your courses when you begin giving them, so you could give the kids a cost break.

[Gateholio]

parents taking thier kids hunting is an effective recruitment tool- Nobody disputes that.

But is it enough?

No, not really. It's good for your family until your kids turn into teenagers and get interested in hockey/girls/video games. And if they keep hunting, great, that is good for them.

But it doesnt' help general recruitment, and without that, your kids WON'T be hunting in the future, because lack of hunters= lack of political pressure.

Hunter recruitment isn't a single pronged approach, it's multi pronged. We dont' have enough parents out there, DOing the "parents will do it " approach, or we wouldn't have these discussions.

It's going to take parents getting INVOLVED in the process( not just taking thier kids hunting) and it's going to take organizations getting INVOLVED. Taking your kids out is a great first step, but it is not the LAST step....

Frankly, it doesn't have to be a "take your kids hunting *OR* join a club" it should be "Take your kids hunting *AND* join the club"

[Elkaholic]

I don't represent the BCWF. I'm only a member of the organization, along with 30,000 other people who aren't too cheap to put $40 towards helping keep opportunities open for other hunters and fishers.


I would love just once for the BCWF to actually put some realistic numbers of their membership out........ or to that matter how many are fishermen? and how many are hunters? I think they boast about their numbers when they are way out of whack.

As for getting more kids into the outdoors I know here in Cranbrook the NWTF chapter puts on a Jakes Day and take kids (hunters and non-hunters) out to a range and they get the chance to just shoot riffles and archery equipment, feeds them and just has a fun event for the kids(and their parents as well). No pressure for them to become hunters just enjoy what the shooting sports have to offer, along with archery. And I tell you what the biggest percentage of them have now gotten their core and are well on their way into their hunting career.

I also agree that the biggest way to get kids into it is how Dana and his brother are doing it. Taking an active part in their kids lives and showing them first hand the joys of the outdoors. Myself a young father have been taking my son out to the "Bush" since he was 6 months old. Already I can tell you he loves the outdoors. Thats just my .02$

[6616]

I would love just once for the BCWF to actually put some realistic numbers of their membership out........ or to that matter how many are fishermen? and how many are hunters? I think they boast about their numbers when they are way out of whack.

I think at least 90% of BCWF members are hunters, I think 90% of BCWF members are anglers, so that would mean that 80% of them both hunt and fish (my opinion only)

[GoatGuy]

I work with a lot of kids as a family support counsellor, and a lot of them are being raised by a single mother. With that in mind, I worked hard to get these kids out to the range and out fishing. The administrator of the society I work through hit the roof when she found out and I now have a letter on my file telling me that any more instances of taking kids to the range will result in my contract being terminated.
However, after spending many years teaching families to think outside the box, I've got those mothers taking CORE program and going to the range with their sons. If I just happen (nudge, nudge, wink wink) ;-) to be at the range when they are there, I certainly don't mind helping them show their kid how to properly handle a gun and even let them fire a few shots with mine. Keep in mind that these kids don't have a dad to take them out and teach them, and they are already facing hardships that no kid should have to go through.
I got a call from BCWF last night and I will be taking the CORE instructors program in August in Kelowna, and one I've got it, I'm going to approach MCF with the idea of putting these kids through the course, using the "kids trained safe and responsible firearm handling and use don't mug little old ladies or get into drive-bys when they grow up" angle.

Good to hear!

That will be an exciting course.

[6616]

I would love just once for the BCWF to actually put some realistic numbers of their membership

How do you know the numbers aren't realistic Rob?

[Elkaholic]

How do you know the numbers aren't realistic Rob?

I would think you may be confusing me with the person who ran that NWTF chapter, I have met the guy but do not know him. Don't start throwing around names when you have no idea who this is. If you read my last post, its simple deduction that I am not that person. Also is it not true that every member of the BCWF receives a copy of their magazine? Well if that is the case why does the company only produce 14000-19000 copies of it when you in fact state the BCWF has 30000 strong??? I also wonder why you would call me this Rob person unless you are infatuated with him, when I met him at jakes day he seemed like a nice fellow.

[Fisher-Dude]

Anyways, the BCWF says they have 30,000 members on their website. Unless you have gone out and counted every member and have a different figure, the number is 30,000. Not sure why you are hell-bent on disputing that figure, as I see nothing for you to gain by doing so.


Federation's structure

The Federation's membership is made up of about 125 separate and distinct clubs from throughout British Columbia, ten Regional Associations, and direct members, for a collective membership of about 30,000.

[Elkaholic]

I am not hell-bent on it, I just want them to be honest about the membership that is all. Also as a group that is representing hunters I IMO think they should be doing alot more to get more recruitment of hunters. IMO that should be a huge part of what they do, as it is the future of the lifestyle we all life. Getting back on topic, I agree with previous posters that there should be a two pronged "attack" if you will to gain more hunters.

[Fisher-Dude]

Also is it not true that every member of the BCWF receives a copy of their magazine? Well if that is the case why does the company only produce 14000-19000 copies of it when you in fact state the BCWF has 30000 strong???

They mail to about 20,000 homes. Only one copy per address. Ever heard of more than one BCWF member living at the same address? :biggrin: Ever heard of family memberships in F&G clubs? :biggrin: What's in it for you to dispute the number? Are you a RHABC member?

What ideas do you have for recruitment? What activities have you organized to help recruitment? What proposals have you brought to the table to encourage recruitment with the MoE?

[Elkaholic]

I am not going to get into this kind of battle with you FD, I have seen it too many times on this forum. All I am saying is that the biggest organization that is defending hunters rights should also come up with way to bring more hunters into the fold. It makes sense to me. I for one would try to get the core training back into schools. Or get members to do presentations in schools. How bout archery in the schools? Get them into shooting sports and maybe they will swing over and try and hunt. I know when I was in elementary school my school did not have the core course, but my wifes school in the same town did. I think that needs to come back. It might peak kids interests at a younger age. And no I am not a member of RHABC or BCWF for reasons I will not go into.

[6616]

They mail to about 20,000 homes. Only one copy per address. Ever heard of more than one BCWF member living at the same address? :biggrin: Ever heard of family memberships in F&G clubs?

The Outdoor Edge distribution data base is a completelly different data base than the BCWF membership data base. The OE distribution data base is housed and operated in Saskatchewan where the OE is published and sent from there to members of all the Western Wildlife Federations. The OE data base is set up to allow only one copy to go to each address. Thus addresses that have more than one member in residence only receive one copy. Many clubs have up to 30% family memberships which actually include 2 or more members. Also many families have more than one individual members. The OE is mailed to 19,000 to 20,000 addresses in the BCWF.

[6616]

I would think you may be confusing me with the person who ran that NWTF chapter, I have met the guy but do not know him. Don't start throwing around names when you have no idea who this is. If you read my last post, its simple deduction that I am not that person. Also is it not true that every member of the BCWF receives a copy of their magazine? Well if that is the case why does the company only produce 14000-19000 copies of it when you in fact state the BCWF has 30000 strong??? I also wonder why you would call me this Rob person unless you are infatuated with him, when I met him at jakes day he seemed like a nice fellow.

I believe I know who you are Elkaholic, you are RB's son, correct? You attended a BCWF convention several years ago as an EKWA youth delegate, is that not correct?

[Elkaholic]

I believe I know who you are Elkaholic, you are RB's son, correct? You attended a BCWF convention several years ago as an EKWA youth delegate, is that not correct?

This is not correct, I have never been to a convention or been a BCWF member.

[Fisher-Dude]

And no I am not a member of RHABC or BCWF for reasons I will not go into.



I myself am only a membe of the RHABC, but my father is a member of, and on the board of nearly every group in this region, so I am well informed on the happenings. I see alot of stuff happen withing the clubs and groups here that if it were to see public air there would be a war with it, there is alot, and I mean alot of corruption in our system and we all get worked over by it.

Well, how do ya like that? :lol:

[Elkaholic]

Well, how do ya like that? :lol:

I like it, I like it alot FD. The reason I did not state this is because of how people get treated for it. Everyone is entitled to do what they want, without a bashing from the Good ol boys club. I simply joined so I could be informed on what is going on in the province. I know that fighting with people like you FD is a waste of my breath. That is why I stated I will not continue to do it. And if you think I lied about being at the convention you will be hard pressed to dig up anything to dispute that as I have never been. Go ahead and try if you want though. I also will no longer continue to respond to you or 6616 in this thread as it is just becoming a hi-jack and way off topic.

[Fisher-Dude]

At least 6616 and I are proud to admit we're members of the BCWF, despite the bashing of it by yourself and others on here. I don't think I'd belong to an organization if I were too ashamed to admit it. But, that's just me, your mileage may vary. :wink:

[Elkaholic]

At least 6616 and I are proud to admit we're members of the BCWF, despite the bashing of it by yourself and others on here. I don't think I'd belong to an organization if I were too ashamed to admit it. But, that's just me, your mileage may vary. :wink:

I chose to say that because of the bashing of it, think what makes you feel better at night. And this will be the final post, if you have something to say to me PM it so that this topic can stay on task.

[Phreddy]

count Phreddy in as a proud member of BCWF as well.