I'm Steamed re LEH Draw!

[Icedog]

I can live with my "NIL" draw result this year, as there are still plenty of hunting opportunities remaining for me in areas/ seasons/species other than those I applied for. What I'm having trouble accepting is that even within my small circle of hunting acquaintances, I know of two hunters who have now been drawn for a bison hunt twice. I am over 60, and have been applying for a bison hunt for many years now. I don't expect special consideration for my age...but I do expect the people who manage the game in this province, and those who set the rules for the LEH draws to f@#%^&g figure out that the odds of getting a draw for a bison hunt are such that it ought to be a once in a lifetime opportunity. There is plenty of room for fine tuning other details of the LEH system in B.C., but the continuing failure to attend to this particular inequity is far beyond stupid.

[Gateholio]

It's not a perfect system, but it's what we have right now, and you knew that when filling out your application.

If you want a sure thing, go to Alberta and do one of those ranch bison hunts that lets you pretend you are hunting, and kill a bison there. it' s what I intend to do if I ever decide I *must* have a bison rug....:smile:

[OOBuck]

It's not a perfect system, but it's what we have right now, and you knew that when filling out your application.

If you want a sure thing, go to Alberta and do one of those ranch bison hunts that lets you pretend you are hunting, and kill a bison there. it' s what I intend to do if I ever decide I *must* have a bison rug....:smile:

Your telling me, I got a letter with only three unsuccessful results of the four cards I submitted.

[K-1]

I'm also "PO", my hunting partner has got 3 bull Moose draws in 4 yr. So I guess he's a good guy to keep around.:razz:

[steel_ram]

I would definately support a "once in a lifetime" rule for high odds stuff like Bison, Roosevelt Bull or any high demand hunts. Perhaps anything that is normally over 50:1 odds.

[wetcoasthunter]

Not pleased here as well. 7:1 odds, 6 of us put in for it, all NIL, WTF??!!

[hunter1947]

I can live with my "NIL" draw result this year, as there are still plenty of hunting opportunities remaining for me in areas/ seasons/species other than those I applied for. What I'm having trouble accepting is that even within my small circle of hunting acquaintances, I know of two hunters who have now been drawn for a bison hunt twice. I am over 60, and have been applying for a bison hunt for many years now. I don't expect special consideration for my age...but I do expect the people who manage the game in this province, and those who set the rules for the LEH draws to f@#%^&g figure out that the odds of getting a draw for a bison hunt are such that it ought to be a once in a lifetime opportunity. There is plenty of room for fine tuning other details of the LEH system in B.C., but the continuing failure to attend to this particular inequity is far beyond stupid.

Yes I agree with you on this issue a 100%.

The LEH system stinks as for getting a draw after putting in for one species for over 30 year http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif.

They the people that implement the LEH should change the way they handle it.

They should have it that ones a person gets picked they should not be able to be a repeater till after 5 years.

If you have put in for a certain species for 10 years then you should automatically get presented with a LEH draw after that time frame.

I'm no expert on this kind of thing ,but lets face it its our country and our game ,I guess we have to die and go to heaven in order to get picked because for lots you will never get picked for some species in a life time ,it sucks big time.

like I said if someone has been picked for a certain spices then they should not get picked again for years to come ,give a chance for others that have not been picked to get picked ,I don't count on LEH ,if I did I would be dead and berried buy the time I did get picked.

[bearheart]

I've applied for Island elk 20 years...nil. I put in 6 applications each year. So far, 1 mule deer doe tag, 1 white tail doe tag, but 1 grizzly tag, oh well....All nil again this year.

[moosinaround]

It's a lottery! Be nice to win the 649 a few times too! Number goes in, a tag is pulled. Some people have the horse shoes, some don't! But you have to have a ticket to play!! Moosin

[Ron.C]

I agree with moosin,

It's a lottery. Role the dice and take what you get. The system is fair, everyone has the same opportunity as the next guy every year. I don't see why we would give worse odds to a hunter, or not allow him to apply just because they were successful the previous year. If i get drawn, awesome, but I guess I just don't loose any sleep over not getting drawn. There is always an alternative way to hunt in BC besides LEH.

[bighornbob]

If you have put in for a certain species for 10 years then you should automatically get presented with a LEH draw after that time frame

Easy to say tough to implement.

Sheep draws on the Fraser are 50:1 on average. So how would your system work for stuff like this. Even if there was a priority system like alberta, it would still probably be 30 years to get a tag. Are you going to keep applying for say 20 years if you know for a fact you will not draw for at least the next 15 years. I doubt most would.

Or even most moose hunts around kamloops 15:1 odds if everybody that get a tag has to wait 5 years to get drawn again thats still a long wait for a tag.

Our system lets everybody have the same chance except those guys that got drawn, then they have a less of a chance but still a chance.

BHB

[Icedog]

I fail to understand the logic of those who believe the current lottery system for high odds hunts is fair. Maybe you'll see it differently if you get to be in your sixties, remain unsuccesful in such draws, and become aware of others being repeat "winners". I have no trouble accepting my lack of winning the draw. I understand the odds are high, and it is a lottery. What I have trouble with is the combination of my not winning, and knowing there are many who have won more than once. There is likely no way to make the system perfect, but it doesn't take a genius to see there are lots of ways to make it more equitable.

[Mik]

I too know of a person who has drawn the BISON tag...twice:roll:.
and also 2 people who in the first year of ever applying for any LEH that drew the BISON tag.
Oh, by the way I'm going on a BISON hunt this year...:D with my cousin.

[bighornbob]

I fail to understand the logic of those who believe the current lottery system for high odds hunts is fair.

What would you suggest for say a sheep hunt that is say 70:1 with five tags given out a year????

By using the alberta system, it could still take you 14 years to get a tag, thats if the 5 tags are given out each year. Say they instituted this system next year (2009) and a new hunter starts hunting in 2010. He quickly looks at the numbers and sees that it will be at least 14 years before he could hunt, do you really think he will really keep applying. People here complain when they dont get a tag imagine how many would be complaining if they knew they had to pay for LEH's for the next 13 years and there is no chance to get a tag. With our system he could get drawn the very first year.

BHB

[Vansmasher]

I fail to understand the logic of those who believe the current lottery system for high odds hunts is fair. Maybe you'll see it differently if you get to be in your sixties, remain unsuccesful in such draws, and become aware of others being repeat "winners". I have no trouble accepting my lack of winning the draw. I understand the odds are high, and it is a lottery. What I have trouble with is the combination of my not winning, and knowing there are many who have won more than once. There is likely no way to make the system perfect, but it doesn't take a genius to see there are lots of ways to make it more equitable.
I too, fail to understand the logic of those who believe the current system is fair.
I know of a fellow and his GF who each got a bull moose draw (they applied separately.... not as a group), and he also got a bison draw. IMO if you get drawn for either moose or bison, that all of your other cards should be pulled out of the barrel. Its only him and his GF, they have no kids.... and they could potentially end the season with 2 moose and a bison, not a fair system in my opinion.

Lotteries and LEH blow!!

[mainland hunter]

What would you suggest for say a sheep hunt that is say 70:1 with five tags given out a year????BHB

I think he's just suggesting to take those who've won out of the picture on those high odd hunts which seems pretty reasonable. I dont hate the LEH system but it can be frustrating and could use some tweeking. I always apply for sheep and realize that I will most likely never get the draw which is fine, but hearing of others pulling the draw a couple times is annoying.

[moosinaround]

"Lotteries and LEH blow!!" Then don't enter!! Simple!!

[bighornbob]

I think he's just suggesting to take those who've won out of the picture on those high odd hunts which seems pretty reasonable. I dont hate the LEH system but it can be frustrating and could use some tweeking. I always apply for sheep and realize that I will most likely never get the draw which is fine, but hearing of others pulling the draw a couple times is annoying.

That still doesn't really do much becuase you will have new guys appying each year to keep the odds just as high.

So what if guys get drawn 2 or 3 times for a high odds hunt. Some guys have big houses and drive fancy trucks are these same people bitter over that too?

BHB

[johnes50]

No Island elk draw for me, my son, and my hunting partner this year. Not much chance to get one as the odds were 201:1. Now if I wanted a cow the odds were much better, something like 8:1.

[ringo]

The system is flawed, I know of a man who has drawn East Kootenay antlerless Elk, 3 of the last 4 years. He also has drawn Prince George antlerless Moose shared hunt, back to back. I can't think of a year when he has not had a large game animal draw. According to the preamble in LEH, your odds are supposed to be diminished after a successful draw to give others a reasonable chance. These are examples where the system is flawed or skewed in this man's favour.

[bighornbob]

Lotteries and LEH blow!!

Like someone else said dont apply then. Its that simple. Its not like the government makes you submit 5 LEH's before you are allowed to purchase a hunting license. Lots of hunting to be had without a LEH tag.


We should be thankful for what we have here in BC. On a US site guys were bitching and complaining about their draws in Arizona. I asked what the big deal was in Arizona. Down there the only thing you can hunt for without a draw was bear with a bow and couger, everything else is on a draw system. The one guy said he had not hunted for deer in 8 years, antelope in 12 years and elk in 15 years. No thanks to that system.

BHB

[bighornbob]

The system is flawed, I know of a man who has drawn East Kootenay antlerless Elk, 3 of the last 4 years. He also has drawn Prince George antlerless Moose shared hunt, back to back. I can't think of a year when he has not had a large game animal draw. According to the preamble in LEH, your odds are supposed to be diminished after a successful draw to give others a reasonable chance. These are examples where the system is flawed or skewed in this man's favour.

The preamble says odds reduced not impossiable. He is beating the odds just like guys that win the lottery more then once.

BHB

[ohno]

One solution for very high odds hunts would be that it would be a "once in a life time hunt" (ie. Island Elk, Bison or sheep) meaning if you draw a tag you will be ineligible to put in on future hunts for those areas.

Part of the high odds are generated by people putting in again after being successful once before. As with any truly random lottery it is possible for people to be drawn twice even at high odds, it just means they are lucky.

Remember Black Ink and a c-note works every time:lol:

[Gateholio]

The problem wiht "once in a lifetime" tags is this:

How about 2 days before you are to go on your hunt, you break your leg?:cool:

Perhaps if you are successful in kiling a bison/VI elk etc, you should not be permitted to enter agina?

However..Liek others said- If you don't like the system, stop buying tickets to the lottery.

Really, the only thing you can't hunt without a LEH is bison and grizzly. You can get RM elk, moose, sheep etc in GOS. Grizzly hunts are often underutilized.

Every year we have great pics and stories form successful hunters posted on HBC, all in GOS. I think people should quit worrying about how the system is "screwing them" and just go hunting....

[moosecaller]

This is a lottery, a game of chance, if drawn I have my odds dropped considerably from those who were not drawn for the following year. I still pay my fee the same as those who were not drawn the year previous, yet I am handi-capped by the system is this fair? Paying the same fee as someone who has greater odds of being drawn than I simply because I was fortunate the year before to be drawn? If I enter a lottery and pay the same fee as everyone else why should I have my chances limited by the luck of the draw previously? I know the fee is small and in theory goes to a good cause, should I pay less for the opportunity to be drawn because my odds are decreased? The system is not perfect if it was we would all be millionaires because the 649 or similar lotteries would make sure we are all winners. The system works to generate monies for the gov't and the system also works because they have changed it to reduce odds of being drawn twice, this due to the out cry from un-successful hunters, what more do you want? the odds have already been tipped in your favour, it is still a lottery and works on the luck of the draw. Very few things are guaranteed in life, we all know at least 2 of them! LEH is not one of them.

[moosinaround]

The HuntingBC forum is a great board with usefull and insightfull information. However when the LEH topic comes up the whinning and sniveling sure rears its head. Its a lottery, a system of odds and chances suck it up princesses and try again next year.
Here Here!!!

[Machinist]

Reduced ODD'S :confused: Our group / shared hunt has put in the same area for the last 15 years and every year we get at least one tag , Last year we got Two tag's with a group of 4 in a Shared draw

** This year they Gave us 4 bull draw's ** one group of four guy's and one group of three !!!! So go figure . No reduced odd's in our camp, and i know of two fellows who have put in for the same hunt for the last five years and have recieved NIL
The System is definetly flawed ,
Either that or we have horseshoes stuffed up our asses :shock:

[hunter1947]

What would you suggest for say a sheep hunt that is say 70:1 with five tags given out a year????

By using the alberta system, it could still take you 14 years to get a tag, thats if the 5 tags are given out each year. Say they instituted this system next year (2009) and a new hunter starts hunting in 2010. He quickly looks at the numbers and sees that it will be at least 14 years before he could hunt, do you really think he will really keep applying. People here complain when they dont get a tag imagine how many would be complaining if they knew they had to pay for LEH's for the next 13 years and there is no chance to get a tag. With our system he could get drawn the very first year.

BHB
I would like to see that when a person gets picked for a certain spices on LEH that he cant get picked for years to come ,lets give others a chance on getting a LEH draw ,there must be a way to do it ??.

If there is a way then thats one way that would help get young recruitment into hunting.

I'm no expert but I know that there is a way to make the LEH system more fair for all.

[boxhitch]

So much bitchin about not winning......Its a lottery !! Completely random draw.

Try a change of focus.
Why is the numbers of permits so low for some hunts, when there is no population issue ?
Why does the money generated go to the general coffers, instead of toward HCTF, or better a special BIG Game Enhancement Fund, so we can at least see how we are contributing ?

[boxhitch]

H47, like was just expalined, that might be a 'feel good' move, but in reality would not change the odds by more than a couple of points.
60 applicants for 6 tags, those 6 winners are removed the next years, draw drops from 10:1 down to 9.3:1.
Or no reduction as the numbers of applicants is not static.
So only the names would change, if that is enough to feel happier about ??

[1899]

Why don't the people who say "suck it up" or "don't be a princess" or whatever tell us their history with LEH. ie how many times drawn, how many low odd hunts were you drawn for etc. Money is not important if you have plenty of it, right?;-)

BTW, youth and seniors do get extra opportunities in the province, which is good imo.

I agree that if it is a fair lottery, then everything is ok. The issue is whether or not the system is fair. And I can tell you that probably NONE of you know whether it is or not. Unless you work for the government and specifically deal with LEH. And, logically speaking, when there are a group of people who get multiple low odd draws, multiple draws every year, and another group that gets NOTHING for decades, it at least warrants a little attention, doesn't it?

For example: has anyone tried to submit multiple applications for the same species? I don't expect anyone to admit they have, but I am curious if the system would catch it.

I am going to look into this deeper and report back when I've collected the appropriate information from the Ministry.

[1899]

So much bitchin about not winning......Its a lottery !! Completely random draw.

Try a change of focus.
Why is the numbers of permits so low for some hunts, when there is no population issue ?
Why does the money generated go to the general coffers, instead of toward HCTF, or better a special BIG Game Enhancement Fund, so we can at least see how we are contributing ?

So you trust one aspect of the government's actions (fairness/randomness of the draw), but not that they are doing the best for hunters/game in other aspects of their actions? What makes you draw the distinction?

[hunter1947]

H47, like was just expalined, that might be a 'feel good' move, but in reality would not change the odds by more than a couple of points.
60 applicants for 6 tags, those 6 winners are removed the next years, draw drops from 10:1 down to 9.3:1.
Or no reduction as the numbers of applicants is not static.
So only the names would change, if that is enough to feel happier about ??
I realy don't care myself about getting picked for an LEH draw ,the animals I hunt are all on GOS.

I have been picked for LEH island elk 20 years ago and connected.

I just feel for others that might never get a draw for a special animal that they have been putting in for 30 years or more with the LEH in place.

[Gateholio]

]
Why don't the people who say "suck it up" or "don't be a princess" or whatever tell us their history with LEH. ie how many times drawn, how many low odd hunts were you drawn for etc. Money is not important if you have plenty of it, right?;-)

I say "suck it up, it's a lottery" and I have only managed 3 LEH authorizations in my life. Ironically, they were all in the same year.





BTW, youth and seniors do get extra opportunities in the province, which is good imo.

I agree that if it is a fair lottery, then everything is ok. The issue is whether or not the system is fair. And I can tell you that probably NONE of you know whether it is or not. Unless you work for the government and specifically deal with LEH. And, logically speaking, when there are a group of people who get multiple low odd draws, multiple draws every year, and another group that gets NOTHING for decades, it at least warrants a little attention, doesn't it?

For example: has anyone tried to submit multiple applications for the same species? I don't expect anyone to admit they have, but I am curious if the system would catch it.

I am going to look into this deeper and report back when I've collected the appropriate information from the Ministry



We had a long thread regarding LEH, where we asked questions and they were answered by the LEH administrator. Maybe try a search, and you may find what you need.:smile:

[Avalanche123]

I have never purchased a lottery ticket

I view the LEH system as a "bonus"....kinda like Christmas in July as someone called it.

It neither limits or augments my hunting season cause I am going anyway. I would love to apply for bison but that is my busy working season so I can't get away so I don't.

As others have stated, I hope you realize that you actually don't have it that bad compared to other locations.

I wonder if there is a lottery web site where folks can complain that they didn't win? Hmmmmm......

[kgs]

I have thought at times that the draws were fixed but only because of an incident that happened to a friend of mine in 2006. He had been applying for leh's for 18 years and had never got one. Till one day he received a call informing him that they had received his leh applications and they were not going to process them because he had a $100 fine for a fishing infraction back in 1988. He was told if he paid that fine they would process the leh's and so he promptly paid. He was pissed because he had forgotten about the fine and says he never recieved notice of the fine and had bought over the years the average of 4 to 6 leh's every year. A funny thing happen that made me think that these draws were fixed and that was he received all his draws that year. His elk, moose, grizzly, and doe draw. He could not believe it and neither could I because if it was a random draw how could he have won all those draws?? It seemed to me they some how just granted his leh's as I had never seen or since then anyone win every draw they put in for. yea maybe two but all of them it sure seems suspicious to me. 18 years of nothing then he pays his fine then BAM he wins all his draws WTF!

[1899]

I wonder if there is a lottery web site where folks can complain that they didn't win? Hmmmmm......

The odds of winning a lottery are
1 in 13,983,816 for the 6/49
1 in 62,891,499 for the Super 7
1 in 120,526,770 for the US Powerball

How is that relavent to someone being upset for not getting a draw in 10 years where the odds are 1 in 3?

GH - thanks, I'll try and look it up, but I am also going to file a Freedom of Information request. That way I'll gather all the material that is relavent (not from an anonymous person, but actual copies of data). If everything comes out fair and square then great. If not, then we will see that too. Either way it will answer many questions without relying on speculation.

[Avalanche123]

"How is that relavent to someone being upset for not getting a draw in 10 years where the odds are 1 in 3?"

Maybe it is not. Don't read too much into it as it was my poor attempt at humour which, well...I guess it still remains poor.

Good luck with your quest for info.

[brotherjack]

I don't think anybody is suggesting it become "not a lottery". It's not the lottery aspect that seems to steam people (me sometimes included), it's the perception of inequity in the current system -- when some guys go a lifetime and never get drawn for 1.1:1 odds doe tags, and some guys seem to get a 20:1+ moose almost near every year. Both of those extremes are the exception and not the rule, but they both happen more than often enough to leave the perception of inequity in the eyes of many.

I can think of several things off the top of my head that could be done to spread out the success rate.

1. Make it so that if you draw a tag for a high demand critter this year, you don't get one for X years after that (X years being determined by the level of demand for the species in question). The key word here is "species". I'm sorry if that makes some tags a once in a lifetime proposition, but if the odds are 100:1, well, that is what it is. Obviously, if a species was LEH in one area and GOS in another, you would not be excluded from the GOS.

2. Make it so you can only get drawn for 1 tag in a given year (with the high odds stuff drawn first, so you wouldn't blow your chances at a sheep/goat/moose/etc if you put in for a 0.5:1 doe tag somewhere).

3. In addition to decreasing the odds of last years winners on a given species, how about we also increase the odds of anyone who didn't get anything at all last year, and doubly increase the odds of anyone who hasn't gotten anything in the last (say for instance) 5 years.

I'm sure more could be come up with - but I think the root of what a lot of us would like to see is some ideas that would spread the success rate around (and without going so far as to make a points system, which I agree, wouldn't work for a lot of BC hunting).

[Fisher-Dude]

Brotherjack, you forgot point number 4.) dump LEH in favour of GOS. :smile:

[brotherjack]

FD - LOL... True enough, true enough. :)

[Icedog]

Gate...you may not be able to control whether or when you get a broken leg...shxt happens, but there are plenty of ways to tweek the system so that it does a more fair and equitable job of distributing hunting opportunities to B.C. residents, and that's the job it ought to be doing. For those who mentioned how lucky we are in B.C. compared to those who live in other places (like Arizona?)...I couldn't agree more, but to argue that we should leave our system of allocating resources alone because hunters in some other places are worse off than we are is too far off for me to see the connection. What Arizona has for resources and how they choose to manage them has nothing to do with B.C. and how we manage ours. I happen to believe that "random" distribution of the so-called bonus hunting opportunities is a long way from a fair distribution. Believing that the system is "fixed" is essentially a conspiracy theory that I do not buy into at all. (How about we throw everyone's pay cheque into a huge lottery bin, and let each person draw one out? That would certainly be random, but I doubt many would see it as either fair or equitable, especially if a few of us pulled out extra fat pay cheques far more frequently than most others.) We're not talking about sharing some surprise gift from up above here. We're talking about sharing managed B.C. resources in the form of hunting opportunities, and those resources belong to all of us.

I will continue to pay for LEH applications for as long as I remain interested in and able to go hunting, but that doesn't mean we should all sit back and accept the flawed system currently used to distribute those special hunting opportunities when there plenty of ways to improve it.

Apologies for being so wordy, but not for the opinions, and I absolutely reject the contention from some here that my desire to see an improvement in the allocation process is "whining".

[Smokepole]

Brotherjack, you forgot point number 4.) dump LEH in favour of GOS. :smile:
Probably happen the year after I quit hunting:frown:


We're talking about sharing managed B.C. resources in the form of hunting opportunities, and those resources belong to all of us.

I will continue to pay for LEH applications for as long as I remain interested in and able to go hunting

If we keep buying them, they'll keep selling them. What's their incentive to give us a better 'product'? Anyone have an idea how much money is generated through LEH?

[Gateholio]

I will continue to pay for LEH applications for as long as I remain interested in and able to go hunting, but that doesn't mean we should all sit back and accept the flawed system currently used to distribute those special hunting opportunities when there plenty of ways to improve it.

".

The question remains- Is the system actually "flawed?"

I agree that there could be some improvements to the system(after getting zero draws in the past, I was bombarded with 3 one year, and had to choose the most important one to focus on, so I never went moose hunting (but my partner did, and got a moose) So I think that getting one "high odds" draw" a year isn't a bad idea.

I would also like to see payment for tags (for high odds hunts) sent at the same time the draw is applied for, because I think that will weed out the "dreamers" and better the odds for the serious applicant.

FInally, I'd like to see a system that would give the tag to the next person on the list, if the original applicant can't go.

But all in all, the system is a lottery, fair to all, and not necessarily flawed. It just appears that way if you arent' "lucky"

I also think think that people should learn to not sweat the small stuff. I repeated my performance of many years with no LEH draws, and I still look forward to a great hunting season, since BC offers the best hunting opportunity in North America- But it is up to the individual to seize it.

[Gateholio]

PS I think the biggest issue with LEH is what Boxhitch and Fisher Dude have brought up repeatedly- Why do we have LEH in XXX region for XXX species, when a GOS can be supported?

[moosecaller]

I wonder if the same people that complain about not getting a LEH are the same type of people that complain when they get one and don't connect, with the usual excuses ...too many hunters, bad weather, bad winter kill, animals were real spooky this year, sun got in my eyes, or is this a whole different group of people who like to blame their luck on something that they or others would perceive as not their fault. We can get steamed at many things in life but just the fact that we are allowed to go out in the bush and have the opportunity to bring home some meat is a bonus.

[huntsooke1]

this is my second year putting leh and hunting. last year i got nothing at all and i was kinda discouraged and i put in for this year and got a bull moose 4309 that realy excited me first time hunting off the island cant wait....good luck to all this year

[riflebuilder]

The system here even if not perfect is fair. If we adopted Alberta priority system only someone who applied the first year and every year after would draw a buffalo tag. Anyone starting out would never get drawn. I agree that there should be some changes like once in a liftime tags for some draws, also maybe on those tags payment up front for the tag when you apply.

[MattB]

I think it needs to change to a preference point system, at least then when you dont draw a tag you get something back :smile:. The more points you receive for a species the better your odds for drawing that tag, while the people with few points have shittier odds. Once you draw the tag you go back to 0 pref points. Ive drawn SFA the last 13 years while i have a friend that has now drawn moose 5 years in a row!!! How is that fair?

[Savage Man]

Well guy's I live in Alberta at the moment but we are in the process of moving back to B.C. and I think that most things with B.C. system are great(like the licences and tags you don't have a breif case to take them with you.) . But the LEH draw system needs some work!!! Priority is the only way to be fair and it gives you a very good idea of when you will be drawn so you can plan for the hunt early. As for long odds they have in Alberta for things like Goat and it their.

[Avalanche123]

"FInally, I'd like to see a system that would give the tag to the next person on the list, if the original applicant can't go."

I really like this concept.

I wonder how many people manage the LEH system? I bet it is very few people however someone would have to be available to manage draws as they were turned in.

[bsa30-06]

i put in my usual 2 leh cards every year.One is a any bull moose draw in an area that i hunt in anyway that is spike-fork only,so if i get it it just increases my odds of finding a legal animal.I was LUCKY enough to get that draw this year for the second straight year even with the reduced odds.I knew when i put in for it that i would be at reduced odds cause i had the draw the previous year,but the cards ain't expensive so why not take the chance.I also got my doe draw this year for the first time after putting in for it for the last 6 years.The LEH is a game of chance,put your cards in and hope your the lucky one.

[Fred]

i put in my usual 2 leh cards every year.One is a any bull moose draw in an area that i hunt in anyway that is spike-fork only,so if i get it it just increases my odds of finding a legal animal.I was LUCKY enough to get that draw this year for the second straight year even with the reduced odds.I knew when i put in for it that i would be at reduced odds cause i had the draw the previous year,but the cards ain't expensive so why not take the chance.I also got my doe draw this year for the first time after putting in for it for the last 6 years.The LEH is a game of chance,put your cards in and hope your the lucky one.

Good for you BSA, and I really mean that.
What frosts me is that I have been hunting here since 1979 and never had an LEH. I am turning 60 mext month and still no LEH.
We all know of one person one this site, who will not be named, who has a friend on the inside and gets prized draws every year, sometimes even three in a season. Now is this a fair and equitable system?
Don't take this as a whine, I am allergic to alcohol!:lol: Fred

[David Heitsman]

If you are getting up in age and short in remaining huntable years and are concerned that you may not get drawn... come to the Wild Sheep Society Fundraiser or the GOABC fundraiser and bid on a buffalo hunt. Failing that, call the two outfitters that offer hunts in BC and secure one for yourself.

Cash in an insignificant portion of your RRSP, or spend some of your kid's inheritance and step to the front of the line! You'll never regret it.

I drew buffalo the second year and will always keep putting in. I'd hate to think that I'm excempt from now on.

Washington has goats and moose I think on a lifetime draw. The demand far exceeds supply on those two.

[wsm]

this year i got nil. dont really care, i'll hunt something else on GOS. but i do see the point. maybe not once in a life time, but every 10yrs. if you get drawn for bison you shouldn't be able to reapply for 10yrs. THIS TYPE OF DRAW SHOULD ONLY HAPPEN WITH SPIECES NOT AVLIABLE TO GOS.if you dont get moose ,elk, sheep, etc hunt them via GOS and stop b#*$^ing. my .02 cents

[Avalanche123]

"We all know of one person one this site, who will not be named, who has a friend on the inside and gets prized draws every year, sometimes even three in a season. Now is this a fair and equitable system?"

Is that a fact? Do you think it is right to not bring this to someone's attention. IMHO that is definitely not fair and is abusing the system.

I wonder how often that happens?

[brotherjack]

The question remains- Is the system actually "flawed?"


Bah, humbug! I think the real question is: "Is it possible to improve the system!". :)

[bsa30-06]

Good for you BSA, and I really mean that.
What frosts me is that I have been hunting here since 1979 and never had an LEH. I am turning 60 mext month and still no LEH.
We all know of one person one this site, who will not be named, who has a friend on the inside and gets prized draws every year, sometimes even three in a season. Now is this a fair and equitable system?
Don't take this as a whine, I am allergic to alcohol!:lol: Fred

Believe me after geting the draw two consecutive years in a row, i wont be holding my breath next year.Might actually apply in a different area next year cause 3 years in a row is very unlikely.(i think).I agree though it would be nice to see the leh oppurtunities spread around a ittle more, but not real sure how they can go about fixing the problem.

[Avalanche123]

For the last 6 years I put in for goat, griz, moose, doe, caribou (goat, griz are for under implemented areas).

Every year I get something from LEH. This year the areas I applied for goat and griz in the odds were not good and I didn't get a tag. However I did get a doe tag.

Is it possible to improve the system? I suspect so. It does need clear objectives to start.

[Gateholio]

Have a read here...

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=11203&highlight=Questions

[Avalanche123]

Hmmm I perused through it quickly. Lots of good info. It is interesting that that post is over a year old and it appears folks are asking the same questions again. Alot of the answers that were provided suggest change is coming however why it is so slow is not clear.

Why is it so slow to make the changes that the MOE person said were in the works....? You would think MOT has enough information and expertise on hand now to move forward. Strange.....

[Gateholio]

]
Hmmm I perused through it quickly. Lots of good info. It is interesting that that post is over a year old and it appears folks are asking the same questions again.

Because some people never saw the first thread, and some peopel just won't accept that they may not be correct.:razz:



Alot of the answers that were provided suggest change is coming however why it is so slow is not clear.

That's easy. It's government. And they need some money.

:p

[FlyingHigh]

i personally know 6 conservation officers. all are hunters. all have been putting in for LEH draws for at least the last 10 years, some longer. every one of them, each officer gets every single draw they put in for. none of them have ever gotten NIL. these are hunts like bison, grizzly, island elk, moose, all the so-called "once in a lifetime hunts". they get them every year.

i know well over a dozen hunters who aren't COs. they've put in for the same draws for many more years.. they've never gotten them.

what's that tell you?

[Avalanche123]

Well Gate I work for Gov't and somethings happen incredibly quick and somethings never happen despite good intentions. I would hate to think LEH falls into the latter category.

Its almost the Olympics, we are "flush with $$$!" :)

[TIKA 300]

ITS A CRAP SHOOT !!!!!!!!

We put in for a shared Bull Moose in 07 near the Parsnip and got it.After spending OOOOODDDDDLLLLLLEEEEES of money on GAS,and a week of SEEING F!@# ALL...........

???????? WHICH PART OF THAT IS SECURITY IN THE SYSTEM ?????????

My point is we won the lottery,but got the shaft !!!!! :wink:THATS LIFE:wink: !!!!! we're still alive and breathing........

[SUAFOYT]

i personally know 6 conservation officers. all are hunters. all have been putting in for LEH draws for at least the last 10 years, some longer. every one of them, each officer gets every single draw they put in for. none of them have ever gotten NIL. these are hunts like bison, grizzly, island elk, moose, all the so-called "once in a lifetime hunts". they get them every year.

i know well over a dozen hunters who aren't COs. they've put in for the same draws for many more years.. they've never gotten them.

what's that tell you?

I simply don't believe what you say. You're trying to insinuate that there's a fix in for certain people. If you have solid info that proves it then present it, if you're going to play the game of I know a guy who knows a guy blah blah then I call BS.

[SUAFOYT]

PS I think the biggest issue with LEH is what Boxhitch and Fisher Dude have brought up repeatedly- Why do we have LEH in XXX region for XXX species, when a GOS can be supported?

What you have to remember is that the LEH and the allocation for tags are taken care of by 2 different groups. The number of species tags are determined by the regional biologists, the draw is administered by other people that have no input as to the numbers of tags allowed. The LEH is administered by people that only do so based on the numbers of tags provided to them.

[quadrakid]

i,ll second the B.S, before you know it this will turn into a conspiracy theory site. sorry folks but it,s a lottery,most people lose in lottery,s and a very few get lucky ,some real lucky ,that,s life. no system is perfect and no system will ever guarrantee you long odds hunts no matter how long you put in. get out and hunt the open season,s.

[Ironball]

The HuntingBC forum is a great board with usefull and insightfull information. However when the LEH topic comes up the whinning and sniveling sure rears its head. Its a lottery, a system of odds and chances suck it up princesses and try again next year.


Thats exactly what i did ,stop applying for those high odds leh and find a new hunting area with low odds.Since then I have got 4 cow /calf draws and have successfully filled them.Get away from the crowds if you can help it.

Kevin

[Blainer]

Believe me after geting the draw two consecutive years in a row, i wont be holding my breath next year.Might actually apply in a different area next year cause 3 years in a row is very unlikely.(i think).I agree though it would be nice to see the leh oppurtunities spread around a ittle more, but not real sure how they can go about fixing the problem.

What were the odd's in the area you applied for?
Did you harvest the moose last year?
Good luck.

[bsa30-06]

What were the odd's in the area you applied for?
Did you harvest the moose last year?
Good luck.

one was 4.5:1, and the other was 5.5:1.
No didnt harvest a moose last year, did manage to call one out but not quite far enough to get a clean shot at.

[gameslayer]

Suck it up, be thank ful that we can still hunt Bla ! Bla !
We will move on but I have never drew a moose and been putting in for about 12 years, we try to pick area's we know with decent odds. This year did the group thing 4 guys in a 4:1 odd spot. Nil. It does get frustrating thinking every year this is my year. So North bound it will be. Good thing fuel is Cheap :shock:

[hunter1947]

i personally know 6 conservation officers. all are hunters. all have been putting in for LEH draws for at least the last 10 years, some longer. every one of them, each officer gets every single draw they put in for. none of them have ever gotten NIL. these are hunts like bison, grizzly, island elk, moose, all the so-called "once in a lifetime hunts". they get them every year.

i know well over a dozen hunters who aren't COs. they've put in for the same draws for many more years.. they've never gotten them.

what's that tell you?
This one is hard to to believe I can't except it ,I would like to see prof of the draws that the 6 had gotten each of the last 10 year ??? :roll:.

[Fisher-Dude]

This one is hard to to believe I can't except it ,I would like to see prof of the draws that the 6 had gotten each of the last 10 year ??? :roll:.

H47, it's pure bull$hit, and has been used as an example by the sour grapes guys for years. Attacking the credibility and integrity of the folks who do the draw is uncalled for. I know the man in charge and he is a stand up individual who would never consider doing crap like that. The draw has been FULLY audited by a group of sour grapes people, and they had their eyes opened wide by the process and how completely random it is. They shut up damned quickly after being "put to work" on draw day by the LEH folks! :grin:

[Fisher-Dude]

How can you call this bullshit FD ,are you standing beside the people that are out in the hunting field doing the shooting ,or can you read peoples minds ???.

I've heard that same story for the past 10 years from people who have an axe to grind with LEH. It all started the first year they had some sheep draws up north, and a few COs got the draws because there was not much interest in the draws (the odds were like 1:1 or 1.5:1). Then it became an urban legend that the COs always got their draws. What a crock! And I'll defend the integrity of the man who supervises that draw 'til my last breath - he's a good dude.

[hunter1947]

I've heard that same story for the past 10 years from people who have an axe to grind with LEH. It all started the first year they had some sheep draws up north, and a few COs got the draws because there was not much interest in the draws (the odds were like 1:1 or 1.5:1). Then it became an urban legend that the COs always got their draws. What a crock! And I'll defend the integrity of the man who supervises that draw 'til my last breath - he's a good dude.

Sorry FD ,I gonged the last post ,got mixed up between two post http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif.

I guess I was not early enough this morning ,LOL.

[Camp Cook]

I also see that the LEH could be improved but it is a lottery and the luck of the draw is just that luck.

Myself I hardly put in for LEH draws anymore other than grizzly that is... :razz:

I now put in each year for spring grizzly in a low pressure area this last year was 1.2 - 1 odds if I don't get the draw I apply for a fall grizzly.

Here is the results of my last draw an appr 1000lbs mountain grizzly... :shock:

http://www.hunt101.com/data/506/medium/Ice_Cream_with_Jaiden_Grizzly_Bear_Pic_s_June_2_20 08_047.jpg

[ROM]

I just moved to BC 6 months ago. I learned the hard way not to suggest LEH change to this Board. There is 3 times more complaining about LEH than in AB.

All of the points here are true but there would be much less complaining (including from me!) if we changed the system. If there was leadership in the fish and game department they would just get it done, weather the complaints for 2 years (more for the old timers) and life would be good for everyone.

I personaly think if someone puts in for a draw every year for 20 years they deserve to get drawn befor me after 1 year. But, not everyone thinks that way.

R


R

[stickbow]

Last year the government held leh forums all over the province.These forums were held to hear what the resident hunters had to say about leh and give suggestions on how to improve the system.I attended the one in chilliwack,they had three groups,one morning,one afternoon,and one in the evening,all three groups only saw 19 hunters total.If there's ever a next time maybe some of you guys with all the good ideas on how leh should be run in this prov. should attend.Just saying,we had our chance to be heard and not too many showed up

[6616]

The BCWF has been invitied to send observors to watch the draw take place, and as expected, everything was on the "up and up".

[Avalanche123]

I have no doubt the LEH is on the "up and up"....Generally most things the Gov't does is on the up and up as their employees are very accountable to the general public. I suspect things may go south once elected officals come into play.

I was reminded a number of posts back that to compare LEH to a lottery is not a good analogy.

[jml11]

i personally know 6 conservation officers. all are hunters. all have been putting in for LEH draws for at least the last 10 years, some longer. every one of them, each officer gets every single draw they put in for. none of them have ever gotten NIL. these are hunts like bison, grizzly, island elk, moose, all the so-called "once in a lifetime hunts". they get them every year.

i know well over a dozen hunters who aren't COs. they've put in for the same draws for many more years.. they've never gotten them.

what's that tell you?

I play hockey with two of the CO's in PG and neither of them have had any draws since I've known them. They don't seem to care either since they are forced to kill numerous moose, bear, deer and this past winter cougars as part of their daily duties anyways.

[Seeadler]

I suppose the biggest problem I have with the LEH system is the randomness of it. It is tough to plan on such short notice and it is possible to get all your draws in one year, and then nothing for years on end. This did happen to me, around 1995 or 96, I drew every draw I entered (there should have been about a 1% chance of that) and then until last year, the only draws I got were the 0.4:1 variety.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some type of blended system. Priority points for unsuccessful applicants for some species. A priority system like Alberta's for some species like goat (there are thousands of goat authorizations available, and only a small handfull are high odds). And a straight lottery for other species. And a whole lot more GOS, maybe with a agragate limit of 1 for elk and moose.

[Gateholio]

Perhaps the people suggesting a priority system should come up with some numbers and show us some figures on which hunts could be put on a priority system,and how.

Some actual numbers would be interesting to look at.

[Seeadler]

Perhaps the people suggesting a priority system should come up with some numbers and show us some figures on which hunts could be put on a priority system,and how.

Some actual numbers would be interesting to look at.

I am not mathematician, but some quick work with a calculator shows:

Bison - 308 tags, 7660 applicants = 25 years to clear up the people applying now, of course some would get drawn every year, but people starting to apply the second year of operation could expect 25 years for a tag. This is unacceptable in my mind.

Dall's Sheep - MU 6-28 50 tags, 120 applicants = 2 or 3 years to get drawn, MU 6-29 22 tags, 147 applicants = 6 or 7 years to get drawn. I think that if one could build priority for a hunt like this and be guaranteed a tag that it would help immensly in planning.

Goat - over 3000 tags, no idea how many applicants, but most are very easy to draw, to my mind the perfect species for a priority system.

I don't believe that a priority system like Alberta's is feasible across the board in BC, but I do think it can be applied for goat and Dall's Sheep.

I'm not a big fan of the "Once in a lifetime" idea either, after all, when the odds are 622:1, eliminating 10 or 20 people is going to make a negligable difference.

My "idea" for the LEH system:

1. Require a deposit (refundable if not drawn) of the tag fee for bison and sheep draws. Seperate the men from the boys so to speak.

2. Goat, Dall's Sheep, and the Spatzizi sheep draws on a priority system with the ability to "999" like in Alberta.

3. One application for either elk or moose, not both with some sort of priority point for each year not being drawn. IE, Year 1 you have one chance in the draw, Year 2 you have two chances, and so on. This "rewards" consistant applicants, but doesn't really punish newcomers as they can still get drawn.

4. Priority points as described in #3 for other species.

5. Review the system on a regular basis.

[David Heitsman]

Require a deposit (refundable if not drawn) of the tag fee for bison and sheep draws. Seperate the men from the boys so to speak.

I have been a proponent of this concept for years. The measly $5 has too many people throwing their hat (not to mention all their wives and kid's hats) in on a whim.

It would be nice if you could rescind when you know that you can't make it on a tag you've drawn

[David Heitsman]

Require a deposit (refundable if not drawn) of the tag fee for bison and sheep draws. Seperate the men from the boys so to speak.

I have been a proponent of this concept for years. The measly $5 has too many people throwing their hat (not to mention all their wives and kid's hats) in on a whim.

It would be nice if you could rescind when you know that you can't make it on a tag you've drawn.


Sorry about the duplicate here but I'm trying to figure out the quotation feature

[Smokepole]

If we're throwing ideas out how about this one:

All your entries go on one card, you rank your hunts based on what is the most desirable to you in that year. Numbered 1 to 6 or 7 however many you want, with number 1 being the tag you want the most, 2 being your second most desired and so on down the list. Buy as many or as few as you want, pay for your number of choices.

The draw is still done the same way randomly by computer, and put in whatever order just like now. The first guy picked gets his number 1 choice then the second guy gets his number 1 choice and so on. Nobody's second choice will beat out someone else's first choice for the same hunt, and so on down the list.

Drawn this way the hunter who is really pumped about going on a sheep hunt isn't competing with a hunter who really wants to go moose hunting but bought an extra entry and puts in for the sheep draw on a whim. It will separate the moose hunters from the sheep hunters. I want to go moose hunting so my first choice won't be Kamloops sheep. The guy who wants to go sheep hunting in Kamloops won't be competing with me on first choice odds. The first choice odds will drop on many draws and you'll more likely end up with a hunt at the top of your list.

OK critcize away:razz: Any problems I don't see?

[Fisher-Dude]

If we're throwing ideas out how about this one:

All your entries go on one card, you rank your hunts based on what is the most desirable to you in that year. Numbered 1 to 6 or 7 however many you want, with number 1 being the tag you want the most, 2 being your second most desired and so on down the list. Buy as many or as few as you want, pay for your number of choices.

The draw is still done the same way randomly by computer, and put in whatever order just like now. The first guy picked gets his number 1 choice then the second guy gets his number 1 choice and so on. Nobody's second choice will beat out someone else's first choice for the same hunt, and so on down the list.

Drawn this way the hunter who is really pumped about going on a sheep hunt isn't competing with a hunter who really wants to go moose hunting but bought an extra entry and puts in for the sheep draw on a whim. It will separate the moose hunters from the sheep hunters. I want to go moose hunting so my first choice won't be Kamloops sheep. The guy who wants to go sheep hunting in Kamloops won't be competing with me on first choice odds. The first choice odds will drop on many draws and you'll more likely end up with a hunt at the top of your list.

OK critcize away:razz: Any problems I don't see?

Interesting idea SP. I haven't heard that suggested before. Maybe I'll set up a poll (just call me a BCRams wannabe :biggrin: ) on what draws people would choose first overall.

[browningboy]

Ah shit, well look at it this way, shit happens, so your buddies drew twice, well be thankfull they are your partners, I have the worst luck as well, the system feels unfare but really, go up with your buddies and have a good hunt as if you drew they would go with you and look on the bright side, you save the 100.00 tag fee!!:cool:

[Gateholio]

I think an idea of this sort has some merit, but that's just at first glance...:D

[Avalanche123]

SmokePole, good job of thinking outside the box. Your ideas have merit indeed at first glance. I need to ponder them for awhile.

[ydouask]

re I'm steamed re LEH Draw!
Great response Gatehouse. Your first three suggstions are excellent and your last observation is HUGE !!! Start budgeting for next year's GOS Moose...Six pt. Bull Elk... Sheep... whatever , Now . Any LEH one may happen to get, maybe, someday... would be a bonus. Make your own good hunting season rather than being dependent on the luck of the draw.

[Geo.338]

The only change I want to see is the enhanced odds system removed .I think that it is unfair to handicap an entrant just because he\she was prviously successful .In no other lottery is this practiced .

I do not want to see once in a lifetime on any draws.

It seems that those who complain about the system being flawwed or unfair really want an unfair system that skews the odds in favour of anyone who has not previously won .Now how fair is that ?

How many people would buy a 6\49 ticket if your odds were hanicapped for a previous win no matter how small .

Now excuse me while I go and gloat over my repeat Moose and Grizzly draws.

I think that if you really want a draw you have to go into low odds areas.

Just my opinion .Geo

[RE1960]

Been thinking about this for awhile now, my hunting partner for the last 40 years my dad 74years old.Knew hip last year a knee 5 years before second knee in feb.09.booked.I don't like to think about it but I know there are't many hunting trips left.Last moose draw 5 years ago won't make another 5 years feel very sad for him and anyone else that doesn't have alot of time left before they really are unable to go on atrip.Born and raised on Van.Is. been putting in for elk draw for I don't know how many years still hasn't had one, I just don't think thats right.
So my question is should there be some kind of system for the old timers out there .When your in your 20s or 30s even40,50s you still have afew years to get lucky, but there are some who don't.

[Fred]

"We all know of one person one this site, who will not be named, who has a friend on the inside and gets prized draws every year, sometimes even three in a season. Now is this a fair and equitable system?"

Is that a fact? Do you think it is right to not bring this to someone's attention. IMHO that is definitely not fair and is abusing the system.

I wonder how often that happens?

I Do know this person myself and so do some of the other people I hunt with. That person has actually bragged about his inside connection and has indeed had repeated hard to get LEH draws, as in several years in a row that I KNOW of.
Cash in an RRSP? I am on disability now and have never been able to afford one of them newfangled things anyhow!:oops::mrgreen: Fred

[Gateholio]

I Do know this person myself and so do some of the other people I hunt with. That person has actually bragged about his inside connection and has indeed had repeated hard to get LEH draws, as in several years in a row that I KNOW of.
Fred

It's the first I've heard about it. Why not name names and/or get someone to look into this persons LEH history?

[Avalanche123]

I wouldn't this forum to "name names" as it isn't the venue for it. However I would certainly do as GH suggests and have someone in his work dept look into his history.

All Gov't employees are accountable.

[hunter1947]

It's the first I've heard about it. Why not name names and/or get someone to look into this persons LEH history?

GH If true ,I'm sure the people involved in the LEH department would have a way to shovel this one under the carpet :roll:.

[Gateholio]

Nobody can sweep documented LEH draws under the carpet.

There has to be a record of who receives what, and I'd like to see who this person is, and what they have received for draws.

The important thing would be that it needs to be real facts, and not hearsay.

Get the name and/or hunter # and file a FOI request.

Until then, I remain skeptical about allegations of cheating in the LEH system, but I'm open to hard evidence.

[SUAFOYT]

Nobody can sweep documented LEH draws under the carpet.

There has to be a record of who receives what, and I'd like to see who this person is, and what they have received for draws.

The important thing would be that it needs to be real facts, and not hearsay.

Get the name and/or hunter # and file a FOI request.

Until then, I remain skeptical about allegations of cheating in the LEH system, but I'm open to hard evidence.

Nuff said on that topic.

[Fisher-Dude]

I just talked with a CO five minutes ago about a ride-along this weekend. He got NIL on his draws. 8)

[coaster]

My wife and I put in for Moose draws in adjoining MU's, we both got drawn. We only need one. So why can't we return one draw and let someone else have it.? My wife also drew last year and I have not had a draw for 5 years..There should be way to return unwanted LEH's.

[CanuckShooter]

We always suspected the LEH was rigged somehow...and then we found out for sure when 7 of us applied for Goat @ a posted 1.1/1 odds for 2 tags....our cards came back NIL for all 7 of us with a stated of 3.2/1 actual odds.

Which even FD can calculate means there were 6.4 applicants per tag And not one of the 7 known [to us] applicants was drawn WTF??? It can be said in one word RIGGED. To try and tell me otherwise is a waste of words as the duplicity of the draw was proven with that stunt.

[Gateholio]

We always suspected the LEH was rigged somehow...and then we found out for sure when 7 of us applied for Goat @ a posted 1.1/1 odds for 2 tags....our cards came back NIL for all 7 of us with a stated of 3.2/1 actual odds.

Which even FD can calculate means there were 6.4 applicants per tag And not one of the 7 known [to us] applicants was drawn WTF??? It can be said in one word RIGGED. To try and tell me otherwise is a waste of words as the duplicity of the draw was proven with that stunt.

Just looks like a bunch of other hunters saw that last years odds were 1.1/1, thought they had a good chance of getting a tag and applied too, and you guys didn't get lucky.

[bighornbob]

We always suspected the LEH was rigged somehow...and then we found out for sure when 7 of us applied for Goat @ a posted 1.1/1 odds for 2 tags....our cards came back NIL for all 7 of us with a stated of 3.2/1 actual odds.

Which even FD can calculate means there were 6.4 applicants per tag And not one of the 7 known [to us] applicants was drawn WTF??? It can be said in one word RIGGED. To try and tell me otherwise is a waste of words as the duplicity of the draw was proven with that stunt.


The 1.1/1 odds were for last year. The 3.2 were for the year you applied as people saw the potetial gimmie of last years odds of 1.1/1.

If the ministry gave out more tags say 10 tags, that means 32 guys applied. That means you and your buddies and 15 other guys did not get tags. You have to remember that the number of tags can increase.

For example one year a buddy got a grizz tag and his odds were 1:1. He and us assumbed he had the only tag. We shot a bear and the way out we ran into some guys that saw us skinning from across the valley and commented on the blackie we shot. We said it was a grizz and they said it was impossible as they had the only tag. We told them we had the only tag. Both guys pulled out their LEH's to prove they were right. Well they both had the right tags and theats when it came to a conclusion that they both assumed that the 1:1 odds meant they had the only tag. All the 1:1 means is there were enough tags for all the guys that applied.

Funny thing on the story we ran into a guy that nioght at a local bar and he said he was going to wait a few weeks before he went grizz hunting as he had the only tag for the area. We asked which area and low and behold it was for the same area we shot the bear out. It took some convincing for him to see the 1:1 thing.

BHB

[Red Foreman]

I agree with the returning of tags you are unable to use for whatever reason.Face things come up,it would be nice for someone else to get a chance if you are unable to.In my years of putting in I've had 2 draws both the same year,wasn't a conflict for me because they were in my home area and for different dates.

[Seeadler]

If we're throwing ideas out how about this one:

All your entries go on one card, you rank your hunts based on what is the most desirable to you in that year. Numbered 1 to 6 or 7 however many you want, with number 1 being the tag you want the most, 2 being your second most desired and so on down the list. Buy as many or as few as you want, pay for your number of choices.

The draw is still done the same way randomly by computer, and put in whatever order just like now. The first guy picked gets his number 1 choice then the second guy gets his number 1 choice and so on. Nobody's second choice will beat out someone else's first choice for the same hunt, and so on down the list.

Drawn this way the hunter who is really pumped about going on a sheep hunt isn't competing with a hunter who really wants to go moose hunting but bought an extra entry and puts in for the sheep draw on a whim. It will separate the moose hunters from the sheep hunters. I want to go moose hunting so my first choice won't be Kamloops sheep. The guy who wants to go sheep hunting in Kamloops won't be competing with me on first choice odds. The first choice odds will drop on many draws and you'll more likely end up with a hunt at the top of your list.

OK critcize away:razz: Any problems I don't see?

I really like this idea.

And how about having the undersubscribed tags available before the season starts.

[Seth]

It kills me to hear that some of you are actually content with the current LEH draw system. Most likely, it is those of you recieving the draws. I've put in either three or four cards for the last six years and have never been drawn. Aside from island elk, all the areas I put in for are generally low odds ( usually anywhere from 2:1 up to 6:1 ); How is it that I have never been drawn and some of these other hunters are getting multiple draws in one year or draws in sequencial years?

For some of you to be spouting off about this all being luck of the draw is a liitle ignorant on your parts because there is deffinately something wrong with this syste mwere using.

Why not a prefferance points system like those used in the states?

Why hasn't someone posted the name of the member who is getting all these draws? It's public record isn't it? Is he ashaimed of his success?

[Brett]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I was told by a friend that in Alberta. Example: you put in for a hunt and if you don't get it your H# goes up closer to the "top" of the list. If you want to continue heading for the "top" of the list you can even without hunting. You just put in for that hunt but put "999" on your card which tells them to bump you up but, your not going on that hunt that season.
If this is correct it seems to be a more "fair" system does it not? My father in law hasn't had a moose draw in 10 years! Under the Alberta system he would receive one before someone else was given a second one in that time.

[msawyer]

Hello all...

The Alberta draw system deals very effectively with this issue. If a person places an initial application for a draw that is over subscribed, he/she is given a draw priority code of "0". Each successive year that the hunter makes an application for the exact same draw his/her draw priority code increases to the next level. When allocating the hunting opportunities the Government gives the draw to those with the highest draw priority - once all those with the highest priority are granted the draw, the remaining opportunities are allocated to hunters with progressively lower draw priorities until there are no opportunities left. All applicants who were unsuccessful automatically have their draw priority code increased for the next time they make an application... Regardless of the competition for any given draw, a hunter who consistently applies for a specific draw will eventually be in the highest draw priority code and will be draw - notably before someone who was previously successful. It strikes me as a reasonable approach to making the draw allocations fair. It's clearly explained at http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Alberta/2007-Alberta-Hunting-Draws-Information-06080709.html opportunities

Best regards

Mike
________
BMW Z1 history (http://www.bmw-tech.org/wiki/BMW_Z1)

[Seth]

Hello all...

The Alberta draw system deals very effectively with this issue. If a person places an initial application for a draw that is over subscribed, he/she is given a draw priority code of "0". Each successive year that the hunter makes an application for the exact same draw his/her draw priority code increases to the next level. When allocating the hunting opportunities the Government gives the draw to those with the highest draw priority - once all those with the highest priority are granted the draw, the remaining opportunities are allocated to hunters with progressively lower draw priorities until there are no opportunities left. All applicants who were unsuccessful automatically have their draw priority code increased for the next time they make an application... Regardless of the competition for any given draw, a hunter who consistently applies for a specific draw will eventually be in the highest draw priority code and will be draw - notably before someone who was previously successful. It strikes me as a reasonable approach to making the draw allocations fair. It's clearly explained at http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Alberta/2007-Alberta-Hunting-Draws-Information-06080709.html opportunities

Best regards

Mike

Amen to that!

[Gateholio]

Appears not everyone saw the linked thread:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=11203&highlight=Questions&page=4

. We are aware that hunters would like the draws earlier and we do our
best. The problem lies in two main areas.

First, we need to assess the previous hunting season before we can set
new seasons, including LEH seasons. We need to know what the previous
year's harvest was before we determine the number of authorizations we
can give out in the next year's LEH draw. That is why it says
'Tentative Number of Authorizations Available' in the LEH synopsis. We
have not finished analyzing the previous year's harvest at the time of
publication, so that allows us to change numbers after publication of
the synopsis. Analysis of harvest is primarily done through hunter
surveys, compulsory inspection, compulsory reporting and guide
declaration reports. These all take time. Some LEH hunts do not end
until the end of February, so our window of time is tight.

Second, after all the analysis mentioned above is complete, the LEH
regulations must be passed by cabinet. Generally, cabinet only sits
once per week, so approval must wait for a sitting. If they reject the
regulations for some reason (they usually don't), we have to fix
whatever they didn't like and wait for another sitting.

However, the main problem is simply getting the previous year's analysis
done.


2. This is probably the single biggest question I get asked. Here is
the answer:

WHY BC DOES NOT USE A POINT PREFERENCE SYSTEM FOR ALLOCATING L.E. HUNTS

Point preference systems and pool systems (which are very similar) are
used in a number of North American jurisdictions. Alberta uses a
system in which points are accumulated each time an individual applies
unsuccessfully. Draws are preferentially given to those with the most
points first; the second most points second, and so on. When the system
reaches a point level where there are more applicants than remaining
available licences, the available licences are randomly assigned at that
point level. Upon being drawn, an applicant's points are deleted and
they start accumulating from zero again.

In 2005, Alberta had 213,749 applications for 71,950 available licences,
with overall average odds of 2.97 to 1. With such odds, on average,
applicants would be drawn roughly every 3 years even in a completely
random system. In B.C.'s 2005 draw, we received 151,972 applications for
26,476 available authorizations for overall average odds of 5.74 to 1,
nearly twice the average odds in Alberta.

If you examine Alberta's hunts in detail, you find that some of their
hunts are very easy to get, with many hunts in their WMU's actually
going undersubscribed. Eleven of their twenty-three categories have a
20% or better overall success rate (ie, odds of 5 to 1 or better),
encompassing 168,613 of their total 213,749 applications (79%). For
these hunts, their system will work very nicely, with people getting
drawn once every 5 years or better. However, with their high odds hunts,
it's a different story. If you want to hunt sheep in Alberta, you will
wait many years to reach the highest point level. In fact, some of
Alberta's sheep and goat hunts are not on a priority system because they
recognize that the demand is so high that nobody would get to hunt until
they reached extreme age. Fortunately, relatively few of Alberta's LEH
opportunities have such high demand, so overall their system meets their
needs.

In B.C. we are not so fortunate. In the 2005 draw, 286 of our 951 LEH
hunts had odds of 10 to 1 or higher, 161 hunts had odds of 20 to 1 or
higher and in 120 cases, the odds were 30 to 1 or higher. In some cases,
they were as high as 600 to 1. In fact, only 465 (about half) of our
hunts had odds of 5 to one or better. These 465 hunts represented only
39,834 applications out of a total of 151,972, therefore, only 26% or
our total applications were for hunts with odds of 5 to 1 or better. In
Alberta, about 80% of applicants are drawn after 3 attempts. In B.C.,
only 13% (19,751) of applicants faced odds of 3 to 1 or better in the
2005 draw, so no such turnover is possible here. Carrying the analysis
further, 41% (62,584) of our applications were for hunts with odds
greater than 10 to 1, 28% (42,992) of our applications were for hunts
with odds greater than 20 to 1 and 24% (36,690 ) of our applications
were for hunts with odds greater than 30 to 1. What this all means is
that if we go to a priority system, nearly half of our applicants can
expect to wait at least a decade, if not many times that, before they
will have any chance of being drawn. In a very few years, for many
hunts, the priority list will be so long that no new person taking up
hunting will have an opportunity to hunt prior to advanced age. Can you
imagine a teenager paying money annually to enter a system that might
provide them with a chance to hunt when they're 65 years old? Having
examined our odds situation, we believe that asking hunters to pay for
so many years before they have any chance of being drawn would be
fraudulent. Indeed, in the early 1980's, Montana scrapped their priority
system for elk because they found that nobody under a certain age would
draw a licence in their lifetime.

One suggestion we have considered relates to periods of ineligibility.
For example, we could decide that once a person has drawn a particular
species, they are not allowed to apply for some period of time.
Unfortunately, for many hunts, even once in a lifetime opportunities
don't help much. Using bison as an example, up to 2006, 38,153 people
have applied for bison in all of the draws that have ever been offered,
but only 1,454 have ever been drawn. If those 1,454 individuals were
barred from ever applying again, that would still leave 36,699 people
applying for 79 licences in the 2006 draw... not much of an improvement.
Additionally, periods of ineligibility have been offered to the BC
Wildlife Federation, but disagreement around the length of such periods
is always intense.

THE BC APPROACH

In British Columbia, we have developed a system we call 'enhanced odds'.
Rather than reward unsuccessful applicants, we reduce the chances of
previously successful applicants. All applicants that are drawn have
their chances reduced by 50% in the following year. In the case of
successful applicants for moose and Roosevelt elk, their chances are
reduced by 66% for the following three draws. This is done for all
species except deer, and the method was developed with the approval of
the BC Wildlife Federation.

The beauty of this system is that it does not discriminate against first
time applicants and it self-adjusts according to demand. If very few
people apply for a given hunt, then the system will automatically adjust
the odds reduction to less than 50% (or less than 66% for moose and
Roosevelt elk). This does not happen very often, but there are always a
few hunts that have low subscription, so there is no point in denying
opportunity to any applicant. This system does not eliminate repeat
success, but it keeps it at a low level.

The two main concerns with point systems are the length of turn-over
time for high odds hunts and the potential for these turn-over times to
discourage hunter recruitment. That being said, introducing a point
system for the compulsory inspection species (caribou, goats, grizzlies
and sheep) may be feasible if hunters want it. These are not entry
level species, so lengthy wait times would not significantly discourage
hunter recruitment.

[Gateholio]

1.Is there a way to ensure that the majority of people that apply for
higher odds LEH tags intend to use it, by requiring them to purchase a
tag within a reasonable amount of time prior to the hunt?

A. We could, but it would be difficult and of questionable value. At
the moment, we have no reliable way of knowing when or if a person has
purchased a licence. Licence sales are recorded, but there can be a lag
time of two months or more before we have the information in a data
base. We are currently building an electronic licensing system that
will provide us with almost immediate knowledge of licences sales, but
it won't be in place for two years.

Even if we did this, it would probably mean that we gave out fewer LEH
opportunities. Since we know that there will always be some winners
that don't go hunting for whatever reason, we allow for that in the
number of authorizations we give out. If participation went up by us
'forcing' people to buy a licence, then harvest would probably go up too
and we'd therefore have to give out fewer hunting opportunities.

2. a) Is there a way to make any LEH tag transferable, in case I am not
able to use it due to time constraints, illness, unexpected problems
etc?

A. This could be done, and is one of many things that are currently
being considered. The Fish and Wildlife Branch is currently finishing a
Hunter Recruitment and Retention Strategy that outlines many ideas
designed to provide greater hunting opportunities.

b) If there was such a system, and I draw the tag and can't go, can I
give it to my brother/friend/etc?

A. Possibly. No promises here, but as mentioned above, many suggestions
for increasing and improving hunting opportunities are being considered.

3.when do the LEH booklets, or whatever you want to call them, come out?

A. The LEH Regulations Synopsis usually comes out around the first two
weeks of May.

4.For the higher odds-against hunts, could the Enhanced Odd system be
further enhanced, by taking a deeper/longer bite, say to 80% then
escalating each year to 60,40,20 ? Would this help eliminate repeat
winners ?

A. It could, but we would have to consult with hunting groups to try to
find some consensus. We have a committee that regularly meets to
discuss regulation changes and it includes members of the BC Wildlife
Federation, who represent hunters. A change such as this would have to
be presented to them and they would probably want to consult all of
their club members before providing us with a recommendation. This in
fact is what we did a few years ago when the odds were put to 66% and
spread over three years for moose and Roosevelt elk. Also, if you
examine the actual affect of ANY kind of odds-altering, it really
doesn't make much difference. Remember, if the odds are 100 to 1 and
you place a lifetime ban on everyone that was drawn, that only improves
the odds next time to 99 to 1, and only then if nobody new applies.

5. Not really a question, but someone forwarded me this. It's rather
less respectful than I would prefer, but I hear you have thick skin:

While I appreciate his response my buddy in Alberta who lived and hunted
in BC most of his life disagrees

Quote-
His answers for not going with a points system is hooey. If hunters
begin to see that they WILL NOT get drawn, not MIGHT not get drawn, then
they will put in their effort elsewhere. The highest wait time in AB is
12 years. Mtn Goat and some sheep areas are no preference odds, and
sure enough, you get 100's of people putting in for it, cause there is a
CHANCE of getting drawn.

The other issue is that AB has many more hunts on LEH to ensure proper
mgmt of numbers. BC is still a wide open shooting gallery, mulies are
open for almost 4 months in some areas for **** sake. Therefore, with
more LEH hunts and fewer wide open seasons, demand per hunt would go
down (greater supply). You will see what proper wildlife mgmt can do
when you get here in the fall.

If BC adopted the priority system within 5 to 10 years the odds
situation would totally change.

Also, the reason they have so much population analysis to work out is
partly due to the open season situation. With no compulsory reporting,
hunter harvest needs to be guessed at.

Feel free to forward my response.

A. At this point, the discussion becomes somewhat philosophical. I
am not going to try to convince anyone that our system is better or
worse than Alberta's because I am well aware that in general, people
will simply believe whatever they want to believe. That being said, I
will point out a few specifics. In BC, approximately 12,000 people
apply for about 245 Roosevelt elk hunts each year. This means the
average odds for these hunts are about 50 to 1. There simply is no way
to provide all of those people with an opportunity to hunt, no matter
what system you use. There are plenty of open seasons for Rocky
Mountain elk (not Roosevelts), so people can still elk hunt even if they
don't get drawn, but nevertheless, the LEH demand is very high.

Even with lower odds hunts, there is no guarantee that a point system
(like Alberta's) will work - let me provide an example. In the early
1990's, we used to issue nearly 10,000 LEH hunts each year for elk in
the Kootenays. About 30,000 people would apply for them, which means
that the average odds were about 3 to 1. Over the 1990's, the number of
hunts was greatly cut back for conservation reasons and by 1999, we were
only giving out 131 LEH hunts each year for elk in the Kootenays. If we
had had a point system, we would have had 20,000 (or more) people in the
early 1990's thinking they were going to get to hunt in the next 2 or 3
years. However, because we greatly reduced the number of LEH hunts we
were giving out, this would not have happened. We would have had
thousands of people with points, all thinking they were going to hunt
elk soon, and then they would have found out that they were going to
have to wait for many years to get an opportunity. Can you imagine the
outcry that would have gone up over that? All kinds of people would
have felt conspired against! Furthermore, anybody coming into the
system for the first time would see all of these thousands of people
ahead of them and realize that they were going to have to wait for
middle age to hunt elk under LEH. The one saving grace here is that
there are still open seasons for elk in many areas.

The question seems to indicate that we should have more LEH hunts and
fewer open seasons. Again, this is philosophical, but most hunters in
BC seem to feel the other way, preferring open seasons to LEH. In BC,
LEH was introduced as a 'fall back' option to allow hunting to continue
in cases where it needed to be closely controlled, rather than shutting
it down altogether. It has never been seen as the ideal way to manage
wildlife populations.

It is true that Alberta has a great abundance of some game animals,
especially white-tailed deer. While I'm sure the Albertans are
excellent wildlife managers, the fact that the southern half of their
province is covered in wheat fields is probably a major contributing
factor to the abundance of some game, probably to the chagrin of the
wheat farmers. Despite the fact that BC can't match Alberta's wheat
fields, there are still very abundant wildlife populations in many parts
of the province that are quite capable of sustaining open season
hunting.

Finally, the question suggests that we should go to compulsory reporting
instead of surveys to assess the annual hunting harvest. We do have
compulsory inspection for caribou, cougar, mountain goats, mountain
sheep and grizzly bears, as well as a few other species in particular
regions, but this only amounts to a couple of thousand animals. They
are inspected by about 30 contractors. If we were to put all species on
compulsory inspection, we would have to hire hundreds of additional
contractors to inspect them at a colossal price and at great
inconvenience to hunters. For the more numerous species (deer, moose,
elk, etc.), we simply don't need data that is that accurate. The
surveys provide very good information at a lower price and without
expecting a great deal of effort from hunters.

Even if we were to make reporting compulsory in the sense that all
hunters had to complete a form, fill out a web site questionnaire or
some other way of reporting that didn't involve an inspector, it would
probably make the situation worse, not better. It is a fundamental
tenet of survey science that people are much more likely to provide
truthful information if it is voluntary than if you try to force it out
of them. Demanding compliance tends to stir up defiance, and there is
no way to check the validity of the information people provide. It
would still take months for all hunters to get around to providing the
information and it would still have to be edited, which is a time
consuming operation

[1899]

In B.C. we are not so fortunate. In the 2005 draw, 286 of our 951 LEH
hunts had odds of 10 to 1 or higher, 161 hunts had odds of 20 to 1 or
higher and in 120 cases, the odds were 30 to 1 or higher. In some cases,
they were as high as 600 to 1. In fact, only 465 (about half) of our
hunts had odds of 5 to one or better. These 465 hunts represented only
39,834 applications out of a total of 151,972, therefore, only 26% or
our total applications were for hunts with odds of 5 to 1 or better. In
Alberta, about 80% of applicants are drawn after 3 attempts. In B.C.,
only 13% (19,751) of applicants faced odds of 3 to 1 or better in the
2005 draw, so no such turnover is possible here. Carrying the analysis
further, 41% (62,584) of our applications were for hunts with odds
greater than 10 to 1, 28% (42,992) of our applications were for hunts
with odds greater than 20 to 1 and 24% (36,690 ) of our applications
were for hunts with odds greater than 30 to 1.

Based on this I am suprised so many people get multiple draws.

Thanks for the link GH, my search skills need honing!

[Brett]

Sounds like an awful lot of thought and work goes into the draw and it is continually looked at. Keep up the good work Lord knows I wouldn't want to do it.

[CanuckShooter]

The 1.1/1 odds were for last year. The 3.2 were for the year you applied as people saw the potetial gimmie of last years odds of 1.1/1.

If the ministry gave out more tags say 10 tags, that means 32 guys applied. That means you and your buddies and 15 other guys did not get tags. You have to remember that the number of tags can increase.

BHB

I've heard this idea of extra tags before, but sincerely doubt it in the goat area we applied as it is very small[zone H dunster area]...and hunted by GOs also...unless the thinking is that there are only two shootable animals there so the other 8 suckers will just climb the mountain and sight see looking for an animal that is non-existant and spend hundreds of dollars needlessly...doesn't seem likely they would be doing stuff like that.

[Gateholio]

Something is fishy!
Eve & I both applied for bull moose in 5-03. (unsuccessfully). The year before the odds were
2.9: 1-this year the odds ended to be 15.3:1.(what gives?)
???- 1) Did the Ministry of Environment relent to demands and/or threats from natives or outfitters
to drastically reduce(last minute) the # of authorizations?
2) Did all of a sudden 5 to 6 times more hunters apply(same period-same area)-(not very likely(IMO))?
We would have NEVER applied for moose LEH had we known that the odds were > than 5:1.:mad:
I’ve seen the Ministry cancel an immature moose hunt(5-03) midstream –(probably because of some threats!)

Odds increase or decrease depending on the # of applicants and the # of tags for the year..last years odds are meaningless.

[bighornbob]

Something is fishy!
Eve & I both applied for bull moose in 5-03. (unsuccessfully). The year before the odds were
2.9: 1-this year the odds ended to be 15.3:1.(what gives?)
???- 1) Did the Ministry of Environment relent to demands and/or threats from natives or outfitters
to drastically reduce(last minute) the # of authorizations?
2) Did all of a sudden 5 to 6 times more hunters apply(same period-same area)-(not very likely(IMO))?
We would have NEVER applied for moose LEH had we known that the odds were > than 5:1.:mad:
I’ve seen the Ministry cancel an immature moose hunt(5-03) midstream –(probably because of some threats!)

I would almost bet money that all the hunters saw the low odds and applied there. I have seen it a lot of times. I have LEH regs for the last 15 years or so and have graphed some hunts etc etc to get a feel for what is happening and see if there are some trends. One year its low odds the next it high then the next is low again and so. This is really the case if you a unit with a early hunt and a late hunt.

For example the bison draw. The bison draw for one area for the 2007 season was 72:1 (one of the worst odds up there). I applied for this area becuase I knew some hunters would not choose this becuase there were 4 other hunts with better odds. When the results came back the odds were only 8:1. That means alot of hunters avoided that area becuase of the high odds and other units having better odds. So for this year do you think I applied for that same unit. No way in hell!! I knew a ton of guys would apply for that hunt becuase of the low odds, so I applied for another hunt. I would bet money that that same hunt will show odds of greater then 75:1 in next years odds.

Maybe somebody here applied for 7-57B Nov 5-19 and could post the results??

That being said I have seen no trends in a lot of areas and species.

BHB

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I would almost bet money that all the hunters saw the low odds and applied there. I have seen it a lot of times. I have LEH regs for the last 15 years or so and have graphed some hunts etc etc to get a feel for what is happening and see if there are some trends. One year its low odds the next it high then the next is low again and so. This is really the case if you a unit with a early hunt and a late hunt.

For example the bison draw. The bison draw for one area for the 2007 season was 72:1 (one of the worst odds up there). I applied for this area becuase I knew some hunters would not choose this becuase there were 4 other hunts with better odds. When the results came back the odds were only 8:1. That means alot of hunters avoided that area becuase of the high odds and other units having better odds. So for this year do you think I applied for that same unit. No way in hell!! I knew a ton of guys would apply for that hunt becuase of the low odds, so I applied for another hunt. I would bet money that that same hunt will show odds of greater then 75:1 in next years odds.

Maybe somebody here applied for 7-57B Nov 5-19 and could post the results??

That being said I have seen no trends in a lot of areas and species.

BHB


Same thing happenned to a friend of our that drew a really good Grizz LEH. It was usually in the 8:1 to 15:1 range but the year he drew it was only 1:1.

SSS

[SUAFOYT]

I believe that odds spiking in a lot of areas are due to the shared hunt. Because each person in a shared hunt application is counted as a separate entry it is making the odds longer and longer. Simple math.

[gameslayer]

I would almost bet money that all the hunters saw the low odds and applied there. I have seen it a lot of times. I have LEH regs for the last 15 years or so and have graphed some hunts etc etc to get a feel for what is happening and see if there are some trends. One year its low odds the next it high then the next is low again and so. This is really the case if you a unit with a early hunt and a late hunt.

For example the bison draw. The bison draw for one area for the 2007 season was 72:1 (one of the worst odds up there). I applied for this area becuase I knew some hunters would not choose this becuase there were 4 other hunts with better odds. When the results came back the odds were only 8:1. That means alot of hunters avoided that area becuase of the high odds and other units having better odds. So for this year do you think I applied for that same unit. No way in hell!! I knew a ton of guys would apply for that hunt becuase of the low odds, so I applied for another hunt. I would bet money that that same hunt will show odds of greater then 75:1 in next years odds.

Maybe somebody here applied for 7-57B Nov 5-19 and could post the results??

That being said I have seen no trends in a lot of areas and species.

BHB

I fully agree with you bighornbob, I have been seeing the exact same thing happen. Our group hunt for moose this year went from 4:1 odds to almost 9:1 odds I thought we had a sure thing almost with 4 guy's only to get nil.
Got to be stratigic it looks like, following the trends will most lilkey help.

[coyotebc]

I've put in for at least two draws (usually 3 to 5) a year for probably 20 years (or more)
About 15 years ago I got a mule dear doe draw and this year I got a moose draw.
Like everyone else I know a hunter that seems really lucky and he gets a LEH almost every year, but that's the way it goes. He and his uncle have been on 4 bison hunts since it re-opened between them (each have wone twice).

Those are just the breaks, I would like to see a give back system though where you could donate your LEH back if you were unable to use it.
There could be some improvements to the system but I can't get worked up about it as I always plan my hunting based on not getting an LEH and if it does happen I adjust accordingly

[Avalanche123]

I don't even put in for a bison draw as I doubt very much I could get away. There is a remote chance I could go but I don't want to take that chance. If tags could be given back, I think I would apply. Too bad MOE won't incorporate that strategy.

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't even put in for a bison draw as I doubt very much I could get away. There is a remote chance I could go but I don't want to take that chance. If tags could be given back, I think I would apply. Too bad MOE won't incorporate that strategy.

They do have a "turn it back in to the next guy in line" program for bison.

[Caveman]

Makes perfect sense. Put yourself in a person's mind looking for somewhere to put in for. What's the first thing you look for........the odds of course. So ten new guys put in for what were low odds last year, and presto the odds jump. Next year those same guys may put in for a different area because looking at the same area next year the odds will be better somewhere else. It happens all the time I'm sure.

[Avalanche123]

They do have a "turn it back in to the next guy in line" program for bison.

Hmmm this place is a wealth of knowldege. Thanks for that!:smile:

So why don't they do this for all LEH I wonder?

[Fisher-Dude]

Makes perfect sense. Put yourself in a person's mind looking for somewhere to put in for. What's the first thing you look for........the odds of course. So ten new guys put in for what were low odds last year, and presto the odds jump. Next year those same guys may put in for a different area because looking at the same area next year the odds will be better somewhere else. It happens all the time I'm sure.

I've tried that on doe draws. And I've never drawn one in all the years they've had them, at 4 or 5:1 odds. :???: The other issue is that numbers of authorizations is "tentative" and subject to change if the bios get more inventory info or harvest stats between the time the regs are printed and the draw is held. So, all the odds and permit numbers fly out the window at the last minute. :icon_frow

Ya just gotta be lucky I think. Use a black pen maybe. :biggrin: