Correct shot placement on a bear?

[BiG Boar]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/BEAR_SHOULDER_BULLET_PLACEMENT.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=9728&size=big&cat=)

I saw someone had put the picture on and I wanted to confirm with the bear hunters in here if this is the correct area you are shooting for, to break down the shoulder and anchor the bear? That ball joint there, as marked by the x? Or is it higher or lower?

Please dont give me other opinions about where to shoot the bear, I know that shoulder has to break for it not to run.

Also, as this bear is perfectly broadside I am guessing the bullet would break both shoulders however may not damage the lungs or heart. Should you wait till the bear is slightly quartering away or towards? Also, does this diagram work for the bone structure of grizz as well as blacks?

And thirdly, more off topic, if a bear is charging you, do you shoot for the head, face, neck, or chest, or spine? I have heard 2 different opinions, just wondering what the group is thinking? BTW with a rifle, not a shotgun. Thanks, Dave

[Steeleco]

I'm of the school that thinks heart lungs. All the time when the opportunity exist. I've taken bears head on also, used the Chevron as my POI, dropped like a rock, heart was shot through and through!!!

[Tuffcity]

And thirdly, more off topic, if a bear is charging you, do you shoot for the head, face, neck, or chest, or spine?

If you can consistantly hit a basketball moving towards you at 30mph, go for the head. If not, centre of mass and don't spare the lead.

JMHO,
RC

[johnes50]

Clayton Mack of Bella Coola guided over 300 Grizzly hunts and always recommended lung shots. He figured a lung shot bear is a dead bear. A shoulder shot bear might not be fatally wounded.

As far as charging bears go, I think shooting as fast as you can is what I would try, if I had the chance and the mental ability to react quick enough.

Then again letting out a long girly scream, climbing trees like a monkey, and wetting your pants might help.:grin:

[mpotzold]

[quote=Tuffcity;300925]If you can consistantly hit a basketball moving towards you at 30mph, go for the head. If not, centre of mass and don't spare the lead.
Agree! IMO -use open sights if aiming-if scoped aim for the centre.
Practice, practice. Try hitting a small target(ex.sandwich paper plate) at say 20 yards very quickly with open & scoped & see how you do!

[The 'Hummer']

Clayton Mack of Bella Coola guided over 300 Grizzly hunts and always recommended lung shots. He figured a lung shot bear is a dead bear. A shoulder shot bear might not be fatally wounded.

As far as charging bears go, I think shooting as fast as you can is what I would try, if I had the chance and the mental ability to react quick enough.

Then again letting out a long girly scream, climbing trees like monkey, and wetting your pants might help.:grin:
Your last 'suggestion' sounds like something that might work for me.:eek::biggrin:On a more serious note, I recall a method used by an old native fella that guided in the central interior. Apparently he suprised a number of individuals he guided for, first off by using only a 30-30. His preference for shot placement specifically on Grizzly Bears, if possible, was to 'pound them' through the hips to anchour them. Then go kill it. Supposedly his theory was that by pounding them through the hips eliminated the likelihood of a final standing rush or charge.
For me personally, I'd still probably end up going with your last suggestion.;)

[lip_ripper00]

Then again letting out a long girly scream, climbing trees like a monkey, and wetting your pants might help.:grin:

Or pratice the 3 P's panic, puke, and passout:tongue:

[358win]

I aim 10 inches higher than what the photo shows, and they go nowhere.
It's like they were electrical and someone pulled the plug. Many still have a mouthfull of what they were chewing on. My .358 225 gr goes through both blades and keeps going.

As for face on bear, the head usualy covers the chest area anyway so if you cant wait for a broadside (charging) blast away.

[srupp]

Hi Dave listen to 358win wise words to LIVE by..yes a lung shot bear IS a dead bear where he dies is unknown blow out that front shoulder and the bear goes NOWHERE..and IS DEAD.

jOHNES50..hmmm I am not one to suggest someone is wrong, however Clayton was a PERSONAL CLOSE FRIEND one whom I spent many times with even on his death bed it was myself he called..we spent times on his boat and mine..and we often spoke hunting and especially bears..I have heard his sasquatch stories and slept on the beach over looking graveyard island..

Clayton ALWAYS advocated the shoulder shot. Always...

Charging bears head on..aim where the neck joins the body..a bit low and it hits his chest a bit higher and the neck or head...with the speed of a bear charge you will at best get one shot..make it count...

also get GARY JAMES SHELDONS book on this subject best you can get..

cheers

Steven

[BiG Boar]

So are you saying to shoot it in the shoulder blade, 10 inches higher than the X?



Hi Dave listen to 358win wise words to LIVE by..yes a lung shot bear IS a dead bear where he dies is unknown blow out that front shoulder and the bear goes NOWHERE..and IS DEAD.

jOHNES50..hmmm I am not one to suggest someone is wrong, however Clayton was a PERSONAL CLOSE FRIEND one whom I spent many times with even on his death bed it was myself he called..we spent times on his boat and mine..and we often spoke hunting and especially bears..I have heard his sasquatch stories and slept on the beach over looking graveyard island..

Clayton ALWAYS advocated the shoulder shot. Always...

Charging bears head on..aim where the neck joins the body..a bit low and it hits his chest a bit higher and the neck or head...with the speed of a bear charge you will at best get one shot..make it count...

also get GARY JAMES SHELDONS book on this subject best you can get..

cheers

Steven

[Barracuda]

shoulder is the way to go, the lower shot means that you might be retrieving your bear from the bottom of a gorge or you might find it in your lap.

unless you break something that immobilizes it a dead bear can travel a whole lotta distance. If you find yourself in a position where a bear is closeing ground place the shot do not just throw lead around .

[BANG!]

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/medium/BEAR_SHOULDER_BULLET_PLACEMENT.JPG (http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/showphoto.php?photo=9728&size=big&cat=)



Hi Dave - It might just be me getting fussy in my old age but if I saw this particular bear in the woods, I wouldn't want to shoot it. I think it might have some sort of disease.

Just sayin.

[johnes50]

Hi Dave listen to 358win wise words to LIVE by..yes a lung shot bear IS a dead bear where he dies is unknown blow out that front shoulder and the bear goes NOWHERE..and IS DEAD.

jOHNES50..hmmm I am not one to suggest someone is wrong, however Clayton was a PERSONAL CLOSE FRIEND one whom I spent many times with even on his death bed it was myself he called..we spent times on his boat and mine..and we often spoke hunting and especially bears..I have heard his sasquatch stories and slept on the beach over looking graveyard island..

Clayton ALWAYS advocated the shoulder shot. Always...

Charging bears head on..aim where the neck joins the body..a bit low and it hits his chest a bit higher and the neck or head...with the speed of a bear charge you will at best get one shot..make it count...

also get GARY JAMES SHELDONS book on this subject best you can get..

cheers

Steven

Your lucky having known Clayton and if you knew him personaly and that's what he recommended to you, then with his experience, I would give alot of weight to his advice.

I don't consider my post wrong, I got my info from reading his books, where he recommends lung shots. A shoulder shot through thick muscle and bone of a large grizzly may or may not be fatal, but MIGHT anchor him in one spot for a follow up shot or two. I think if I was quite close to a large grizzly then I might do a shoulder shot just to anchor him in one spot.

A lung shot is for sure a dead bear, but just how soon is the question. I think I would be more comfortable with a lung shot if the bear was further away from me rather than closer. A lung shot bear could charge even though he's for sure going to die. Whatever you think is the right tactic for your situation.

John

[bighornbob]

Geeze thats one rubbed bear. You should be able to find a better condition hide somewhere else.:tongue:

BHB

[srupp]

BANG & BIGHORNBOB...NOW thats funny stuff lmao...

John I am humbled to have had the priviledge to know Clayton and to call him a close friend..and spent precious times with him in Williams lake and Bella Coola...I also know the books about Clayton are way off track in many many places..so this doesnt surprise me..Mr Bob Kopp and I and Paul Sissons listened to Clayton expound on grizzlies and hunting tactics while sleeping on the beach at restoration bay...and I know what Claytons views on this subject were.
Tim shot the HUGE 9'4" 900 pound monster 2 years ago ask Tim if he wanted the bear to move the 12 feet into the dark timber or drop where he did??Yes a lung shot bear is a dead bear..however he could be dead 200 yards inside the thick west coast timber line....shoulder shots mean NOT having to go look or guess or be surprised....this is something IM not guessing at Im basing it on 30 years experience with these animals AND numerous grizzlies both for me and friends and guiding, as well as Clayton, Betty Franks ...Gary Sheldon

I also dont believe in "long range " shooting of grizzly bears not of the BS from TV where they are shooting grizzlies at 700 yards..i feel that no shots are ever warranted at over 150 yards or under 70 yards over the 150 most guys stoked by adrenalin cant hit that shoulder under 70 yards IF the bear decides to COME RATHER THAN RUN..ya dont get time for a second QUALITY shot..

In 30 years I have never lost, nor had any client lose a bear that had been shot in the shoulder at reasonable ranges with a reasonable caliber with well constructed bullets....

I do know bears..:wink:
Steven

[BCbillies]

I like to shoot dah bears in dah shoulder! That way I can get away with one less pair of underwear and don't have to go find em in the dah morning. :wink:

Basically the same thing Steven just said.

[johnes50]

BANG & BIGHORNBOB...NOW thats funny stuff lmao...

John I am humbled to have had the priviledge to know Clayton and to call him a close friend..and spent precious times with him in Williams lake and Bella Coola...I also know the books about Clayton are way off track in many many places..so this doesnt surprise me..Mr Bob Kopp and I and Paul Sissons listened to Clayton expound on grizzlies and hunting tactics while sleeping on the beach at restoration bay...and I know what Claytons views on this subject were.
Tim shot the HUGE 9'4" 900 pound monster 2 years ago ask Tim if he wanted the bear to move the 12 feet into the dark timber or drop where he did??Yes a lung shot bear is a dead bear..however he could be dead 200 yards inside the thick west coast timber line....shoulder shots mean NOT having to go look or guess or be surprised....this is something IM not guessing at Im basing it on 30 years experience with these animals AND numerous grizzlies both for me and friends and guiding, as well as Clayton, Betty Franks ...Gary Sheldon

I also dont believe in "long range " shooting of grizzly bears not of the BS from TV where they are shooting grizzlies at 700 yards..i feel that no shots are ever warranted at over 150 yards or under 70 yards over the 150 most guys stoked by adrenalin cant hit that shoulder under 70 yards IF the bear decides to COME RATHER THAN RUN..ya dont get time for a second QUALITY shot..

In 30 years I have never lost, nor had any client lose a bear that had been shot in the shoulder at reasonable ranges with a reasonable caliber with well constructed bullets....

I do know bears..:wink:
Steven

Congratulations on 30 years of guiding and never losing a bear. Not many can say that. As far as Claytons views are, I'll have to go by what he wrote in his books as I never swapped stories with him while sleeping on the beach. Although, I have read his books while laying in bed.

Your minimum and maximum shooting ranges for gizzlies makes a lot of sense for any hunter, and anybody who would suggest taking a long range 'TV' shot has little sense.

As in any hunting, it comes down to good shot placement with the right caliber and the right bullet for the animal you're after. And knowing your firearm, practicing shooting till your a good shot with it at different distances and in different firing positions. Then hope you get lucky and see a decent animal.

That being said, your guiding experience has shown you that shoulder shots are your preferred method of taking grizzlies. The shoulder shot of the grizzly in the above situation was certainly the right call considering the thick west coast timber, and the fact you have the bear to prove it. As I said earlier, whatever tactic that works for you and you feel comfortable with, is the tactic for YOU to use.

I too know bears, but a little differently than you. I worked for Parks Canada in Jasper and chased many 'trouble' bears out of campsites with nothing more than a radio in my hand. I chased bears and have been chased in return. I have neen growled at, huffed at, false charged and really charged. I have been very close to bears and l and have felt the breathe of a bear in my face and have felt the wind go by my face as I was swatted at. Had one smell me real close like. I treed a 525lb. boar black bear at night with a flashlight as my only weapon. No gun in my hand either. Yes, I know bears too.:wink:

Cheers, John

Steven: Tell us some of Claytons Sasquatch stories.

[OOBuck]

I've shot bear through the engine room and through the shoulder and I have seen both travel a fair distance after the fact.

Bears are tuff, really tuff. I have shot one point blank with a 12 guage slug and it attempted to climb a tree afterwards. I can't imagine attempting to fight one off. I personally like the idea of heart & lungs it's only going so far.

As far as a charging bear, lots of lead...:D

[srupp]

I wont belittle the point Ive made here many times..

However there are two points..

1) these books were NOT written by Clayton they were his AUTOBIOGRAPHY of stories and events very LIBERALLY embelleshed and wroten by someone else that did NOT understand the culture Clayton grew up in...I listened and saw the photo of MR. John Wayne..the actor..on a beach in Owikeno bay..down by the "grove"..and then listened to some of the drivel about the story of John Wayne..completely DIFFERENT story than Clayton told...be wary ..the book contains many of the authors INTERPRETATIONS that perhaps Clayton would have found surprised at.
I DO know Clayton NEVER advocated lung shots. Period.

2)I believe there is a real difference between park bears habituated to man and those truly wild bears ..and IM not sure which would be the most dangerous HOWEVER had you SHOT one and TRULY wanted the bear DEAD there you would appreciate the shoulder shot..

Bears shot correctly through the shoulders withadequet calibers with premium bullets dont go anywhere..including 900 pound giants.

Saquatch stories,,,, Ok but not tonite and ya promise to finish your supper and go straight to bed afterward...lol :biggrin:

Cheers

Steven

[BCRiverBoater]

I am a fan of heart and lungs if you have a good broad side shot and bear is not aware of your presence. If bear is running at you then the head and shoulders to slow him up.

[Gateholio]

I've taken (and seen taken) lots of different shots at bears.

I've hit them full frontal (on all fours) full frontal (standing), broadside lung, broadside shoulder and up the rear. I think that covers them all...:-P

If I had my way, I'd take them broadside via shoulder, especially grizzlies.

I've put a few bullets end to end on black bears, (and would do so on a grizz, if necessary) but Id' prefer to break those shoulders (it blows up the top of the lungs, too) and work with that.


We took SRUPP's advice and got a nice grizz, shoulders blown out (pelvis shot., too,but unnecessary) and one of the quickest "bear downs" I've seen...

[hunter1947]

The x on the pic will put down a bear.

If I was shooting at this bear I would go a bit higher then what the x is showing.

[BiG Boar]

Yes. back to the topic. Now that we have established the shoulder shot. I am really wondering where the shoulder is? Is there a shoulderblade that youre hitting up higher than the X, or is it the upper arm bone? Or is it the ball joint that the X is on in the picture? A big bear has a big shoulder. Where on that pic do I shoot?

[Rob]

So when hunting bear, the hunter should be thinking of a two system approach. 1: anchor bear, 2: finishing bear? Ive never hunted grizz, but Im sure I would want it down as soon as possible. Thanks for the good advice guys. I too would like to hear some of the Sasquatch stories. I lived in the Yukon for a few months fighting fires in '98 and was aways keen to hear some of the campfire talk from the locals(native and white). Cheers Rob

[358win]

Bigbore. Strait up front leg just under the spine. Like Gatehouse says, takes the top lungs out as well. You can be off as much as 3-4" and he'll Still fall on his feet with a mouthfull of what ever he was chewing on.

[moosinaround]

My shot on that pic. would be from the X up. Anywear in that area with the 180 grain 300 win mag the bear will be anchored, if not entirely capute! I like to make sure I have a clear field of view, and dont like shots at black bears over 200-250 yards. First black bear I did shoot was over 350 yrds, but was a follow up shot for another hunter. Lesson learned on that particular outing. I have never hunted or shot at a grizz, but I do believe that a good anchoring shot would be necessary. I have had to kill 1 black bear in self defense at very close range 15 yrds+-, the outcome with 00 buck was a dead bear. I was fourtunate, cause the shell jammed in the chamber! I hit it in the face, but could have been a spine shot, it happened REAL quick!! Anyways I have seen a black bear run through devils club wounded, and get up after 10 min and come at the hunter so yah THEY ARE TOUGH!! Moosin

[johnes50]

I wont belittle the point Ive made here many times..

However there are two points..

1) these books were NOT written by Clayton they were his AUTOBIOGRAPHY of stories and events very LIBERALLY embelleshed and wroten by someone else that did NOT understand the culture Clayton grew up in...I listened and saw the photo of MR. John Wayne..the actor..on a beach in Owikeno bay..down by the "grove"..and then listened to some of the drivel about the story of John Wayne..completely DIFFERENT story than Clayton told...be wary ..the book contains many of the authors INTERPRETATIONS that perhaps Clayton would have found surprised at.
I DO know Clayton NEVER advocated lung shots. Period.

2)I believe there is a real difference between park bears habituated to man and those truly wild bears ..and IM not sure which would be the most dangerous HOWEVER had you SHOT one and TRULY wanted the bear DEAD there you would appreciate the shoulder shot..

Bears shot correctly through the shoulders withadequet calibers with premium bullets dont go anywhere..including 900 pound giants.

Saquatch stories,,,, Ok but not tonite and ya promise to finish your supper and go straight to bed afterward...lol :biggrin:

Cheers

Steven

1) I was not discussing who wrote Claytons books, nor stories about John Wayne, but shot placement on bears. Although stories about John Wayne may be amusing they are irrelevant to the issue. You persist in referring to his books as inaccurate and full of drival. You say you won't belittle the point you made, but you are willing to belittle Claytons books for the sake of making a point. Clayton was a storyteller and his books were written by his family physician as told to him by Clayton while Clayton was hospitalized after his stroke. His physician specialized in Native health issues and I'm sure he was aware of and was sensitive to the culture that Clayton grew up in. Claytons family and friends assisted Dr. Harry Thommasen in editing the book and translating the Nuxalk language. I don't think they would have allowed Dr. Thommasen to "LIBERALLY embellesh" Claytons stories even if he wanted to, which I don't think he did as that is not his writing style. I think he tried to share Clayton's oral stories as honestly and as accurately as he could.

2) Wild bears and habituated bears can both be dangerous. Wild bears are generally more afraid of humans than Park bears. Park bears have lost their fear of man and pose their own special risks to people. They don't automatically run away as most wild bears do and they will and do stand their ground and challenge humans more often. Shooting bears in Parks is not allowed, but I have legally shot bears. As mentioned several times now, each shooting situation is different and a different shot may be necessary for different circunstances. Broadside lung shots are what I prefer for any large game, including bears.

"I DO know Clayton NEVER advocated lung shots. Period." It seems you feel you have special insight on what Clayton thought, but the below excerpts from his book show otherwise.. You can think as you please, but Clayton specifically mentions taking lung shots on bears.

Excerpts from 'Grizzlies and White Guys'

p.57 "Is that him underneath that log?" he asked.... "Yeah that's him," I said. "Try and hit him in the lungs," I said to Walter Butcher. I told Walter Shutts, "Try and shoot him in the heart and I'll try and get him in the kidney."

p.82 About a hundred yards from where we throwin' rocks at that grizzly bear we saw a real big grizzly bear... "That's the grizzly bear you been looking for. "Bang! He was a good shot, too. Got him right through the lungs. That grizzly bear run only about fifty feet and fall down.

p.115 "I tell Carolyne, If you can get through to their lungs they don't live very log. They die quick." She listened to me good. Carolyne wouldn't shoot a bear if she couldn't shoot the lungs."

p.116 "Take him, Carolyne." She shot that bear. One shot. Right through the lungs.

p.116 Bang! Then two more shots right after that, bang! bang! She takes three shots, all right through the lungs..... "Carolyne, that bear is dead now," I said. Carolyne shot it in the same place. Right through the lungs. She was a good shot. A real good shot.

I could go on, but I think my point has been made.

PS: I always finish my supper and usually wait for my Juniors to go to bed first. Goodnight and pleasnt dreams Steven.:wink::biggrin:

[The Dawg]

How does a great question about where to shoot a bear turn into an arguement over who wrote what, and who said this and that?

Me, personally, I would shoot a bear right in the shoulder blade...hopefully that stops it in its tracks.

[johnes50]

How does a great question about where to shoot a bear turn into an arguement over who wrote what, and who said this and that?

Me, personally, I would shoot a bear right in the shoulder blade...hopefully that stops it in its tracks.


Basically, it was suggested by srupp that the statement I made about Clayton Mack recommending lung shots was wrong. I had to defend myself and show that I wasn't. And I am now finished with this topic. John

[srupp]

johnes50..nothing personal you read what someone wrote about Clayton I spent time WITH Clayton I was merely trying to suggest dont read everything in the book and believe it was exactly like that..lol there is plenty of fiction presented as fact...

regardless my position based on SHOOTING ,guiding andlearning from many highly experienced guides and hunters is still shoulder shot...

one day we should do coffee..my treat and we can talk more..

Regards

Steven

[johnes50]

johnes50..nothing personal you read what someone wrote about Clayton I spent time WITH Clayton I was merely trying to suggest dont read everything in the book and believe it was exactly like that..lol there is plenty of fiction presented as fact...

regardless my position based on SHOOTING ,guiding andlearning from many highly experienced guides and hunters is still shoulder shot...

one day we should do coffee..my treat and we can talk more..

Regards

Steven

Sounds good to me. And if your in Victoria it's my treat.

I agree, nothing personal from me either. I respect your guiding experience and the fact that you have known Clayton. I was stating what I had read in Claytons books from a grizzly guide with lots of experience, probably more than will ever be attained again. I was not trying to be the final authority on the matter.

Cheers, John

[wolverine]

Everything I have read said to take the shoulder shot to anchor the bear and it's usually a kill shot to boot. I have done that for the most part and it has worked remarkably well, but, that being said, I have also shot one through the lungs and one end to end and neither of those made it out of their tracks either. I think if it is a large blackie, I'll wait for the shoulder shot. If it's a Grizzly, no question, the shoulder and follow up shots as quick as I can.

[scoot]

unless you break something that immobilizes it a dead bear can travel a whole lotta distance. If you find yourself in a position where a bear is closeing ground place the shot do not just throw lead around .


From my experience and what the majority of people I hear say, Barracuda said it. Bears are very tough. So unless you have the aim or luck to connect with the spine or boiler you could have a bear on your hands that has potential to cover hundreds of yards. I believe some form of structural damage will be more effective in at very least slowing the bear down which gives you a better opportunity to pull the trigger again.

My 2 cents.