My RANT about New Hunter Recruitment

[BiG Boar]

I have hunted a total of 3 years. Off and On over the last 14. The reason that its was so spaced out was moving to BC from Alberta when I was 16 and not having many people to hunt with. Thanks first off to HBC for finding me new people to hunt with. You people are awsome!

I dont know what the thoughts of new hunters on this site are, I could see the selfish folk saying that they dont want new hunters to enjoy thier sport and taking thier animals. Siteing reasons such as they are dangerous and dont respect nature. I personally want more new hunters out there enjoying hunting with myself. However my rant is this:

The whole licencing for CORE and PALS is terribly hard to make it through to completion. I have 5 friends who took thier courses earlier in the year, February or so because I wanted them in for a group hunt for moose. We do a lot of camping together and many of them shoot my guns with me when we have been out in previous seasons. Guess how many actually made it to the stage of putting in for LEH's. ONE!!!

There are way too many steps in the process! If they want new hunters this whole process has got to be simplified. Going here and there doing this and that, standing in this line that line. It can and should be simplified. All paperwork should be done online, including LEH draws. The costs for CORE and PAL should be free for online paperwork, and the teachers should get paid by the govnt for how many students go through thier corses. All in all Just to get to your newbie LEH's in the mail was $300 for CORE and PAL courses, $80 and $30 for PAL and CORE documents, $40 for Core and PAL books, $20 Driving out to Maple ridge to get your hunter number, and money for stamps! Not too mention how much time you have to put into the whole thing! Then if you are a new hunter you have to figure out the LEH regulations, apply for areas you have never even heard of before, and then pay 5.30 per tag in hopes to get a draw. Then its more for hunting licence and tags! At this point you are no where near the field of hunting.

Why can't they simplify things so that you go to your PAL course, tested, continue with the same instructor to your CORE, tested, he posts the results online, you fill out your paperwork online, he sends your photo online and the govt mails you back your cards! Then the govnt builds a new hunters package at a reasonable cost to include all things neccesary and good enough to hunt with, including binos, first aid kit, rifle, scope, knife, sharpener, blah blah blah, all for a reasonalbe price. Hey if you have money to burn go buy custom stuff from a store. Then all the person needs is transportation and to buy all his tags and LEH draws online.

The one thing that did inspire the one guy to finish was I told him he would probably get a whitetail doe draw in the new hunters draw. Which would ensure he would get a deer in the freezer for sure this year. I say why not do a new hunters draw for a few more species in diferent areas, or expand it to a GOS for new hunters in certain areas. Well, thats all I have to say about that. What are you peoples thoughts on new hunter recruitement? Like it? Don't want more new hunters? Anything to do to improve the current giant process? Thats my Rant for the Day...

[Elkaholic]

Sorry about your frustration, but IMO I think people should have to take the CORE to become a hunter. It teaches you what you should know. I also know the frustration of having to get a PAL, I will just leave the PAL at that. Your buddy's should not have to sped that much to get their CORE, they can usually borrow or buy the book study it and challenge the test. The course is not required. I personally know a person who is a teacher for both PAL and CORE and he does courses all the time where he will teach you the core, and then the PAL. And really there is also no need to buy a book to take a PAL unless your are going to get a restricted one. All you need to know about the PAL test is in the chapter about guns in the CORE book. Read it and challenge it too. If you don't believe me I can give you the number of the tester I know and this is what he tells all his students to read.

And as far as simplifying things, why would our govt want to do that?? :smile:

[BiG Boar]

You are right in saying that you can use the CORE book to get your PAL studying done. I think people should have to take the CORE to become a hunter also, including doing a course or studying and challanging the exam. Its not that the information is difficult or tough to pass, its the processing to get it all done that really sucks. Obviously the govnt does not want new hunters out there, youre right on that one!

[bruin]

I don't think things should be simplified too much. Yes we would get an increase in new hunters but I think they would lack education and ethics and would not be someone I would like to see representing hunters.

[Leaseman]

I agree with Elkaholic...

It is really quite simple when you look at the proccess... My son went through it 2 years ago, we had a buddy put a group together and had the two courses taught at his house over a two week period.... Paper work filled out and sent in....period!

If a person asks the right questions and does a little homework, it IS simple!

[mcrae]

I took my CORE and PAL all with the same instructor one course after another. The price included both programs. I ended up with two manuals as well. It was all pretty straight forward for me. The instructor walked us through all the forms and documentation needed then we filled everything in and had to finish up with pictures and some references...

Maybe some instructors do things differently?

[Barracuda]

I think the amount it costs to get the CORE and FAC is very reasonable, look at how much people will spend for a night on the town and compare what you get for your money.

As for how difficult it is, with exception for how slow the govt works it is really pretty simple.
If a person does not have the ability to pass the simple tests laid before them at this present time then i am not sure that they should partake in this activity.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Read this on hunter R & R in this province. You're not alone in your opinions.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/ds/docs/070607_HunterRecruitment-RetentionStrategy.pdf

SSS

[rishu_pepper]

If one thinks the CORE course is costly, then why not consider self-studying it? That's what I did, bought the CORE book for $15, read it a few times and got an examiner to administer the test for $30. Saves some cash.

Think of how much more expensive/harder it is to hunt in other countries (US, Europe, etc.) and we can appreciate how lucky we are to be BC hunters.

[steel_ram]

Everyone should take the core course. Even those that have hunted in other provinces.

[threedhunter]

most new hunters can challenge the courses. be aware, some can not.do the research,i am an instructop in both core and cfsc.i try to get people to do both courses as the books are pretty general for info, you get a bigger bang for your minimal $ from me as i believe we need more young/new hunters out there .i do not require you to buy manuals although the core book is a good reference tool and recommend you buy it. it gives distribution areas that are good starting points to locate specific animals.the cfsc manuals are not necessary after you pass the once in a lifetime tests unless you break the firearm laws, which would indicate maybe that going thru the courses really was an excersize in money wasting.we as instructors can only give tools to individuals, what you elect to do with that tool is up to you.if your "friends" were really interested in doing what you do they would get with it and not "help" you burn up your ammo in the gravel pit , they would buy thier own guns instead of USING yours.jmo, threedhunter:smile:

[Vansmasher]

I don't think things should be simplified too much. Yes we would get an increase in new hunters but I think they would lack education and ethics and would not be someone I would like to see representing hunters.
X2

Bigbore... it sounds like the one friend of yours was just more keen than the other four. Sure there are loops to go through, but this way people have to take it seriously.

Steelram..... I can't agree in your opinion to everyone needing to take the core, meaning even out of provincers with a valid licence....the core course is very similar province to province.

[TPK]

There is a "push" to get the PAL included with CORE but that's down the road a ways, if at all. LEH will soon be online, so somethings are in the works to help streamline and speed up the process.

As for how much it currently costs and the time it takes .. well, it depends on how you look at it. Some peopel think the CORE course is a great value and underpriced .. others think the opposite, some think the course is too long, others not. Obviously, the cost and time are going to be looked at differently by each individual, nothing new here. How ever, for those that think it's too expensive, takes too long, and is too hard ... I struggle with that. If you think about the responsibility of hunting ethically and safely, there's a lot there to think about. CORE gets you started and you learn and progress from there, it's certainly not the end all be all, it's just the start of your learning. The cost .. is next to nothing when you look at what you're going to spend on gear, food, fuel etc. when you actually go hunting. How ever, along those lines, there is another "push" for the costs of the CORE and PAL courses to be eligible for a tax refund as is the case for hockey moms and dads in that they are able to claim the cost of enrollment for their child in that sport. License fees and tags, well that money goes to conservation etc. etc. and is sorely needed so personally, I would support a reduction for juniors and seniors but that's it.

[steel_ram]

There is a "push" to get the PAL included with CORE but that's down the , there is another "push" for the costs of the CORE and PAL courses to be eligible for a tax refund as is the case for hockey moms and dads in that they are able to claim the cost of enrollment for their child in that sport.

Claims for that youth health initiative involve longterm enrollment in activities to do with physical fitness. Without looking it up, it's something like 80% strenious/cardio type execise. Don't think hunting qualifies, at least the way most do it.

[moosinaround]

I'm all for new hunter recruitment! If one can't pass the test, and jump through the hoops to earn the core and pal, then maybe they are not dedicated enough to harvest an animals life! The core course, and PAL course are actually quite easy tests. In most cases people with everyday common sense, and some bit of ambition can pass these courses. They do after all give you the "licence" to go out and purchase a firearm, which will be used to kill an animal in order to feed one self! The cost and time involved with passing these courses is small, and is a very small price to pay to have the priveledge to do this activity. Moosin

[Gun Dog]

The whole licencing for CORE and PALS is terribly hard to make it through to completion. I have 5 friends who took thier courses earlier in the year, February or so because I wanted them in for a group hunt for moose. We do a lot of camping together and many of them shoot my guns with me when we have been out in previous seasons. Guess how many actually made it to the stage of putting in for LEH's. ONE!!!
I only started shooting and hunting 6 years ago. I didn't find it onerous. I got my non-restricted and restricted PAL first (ok, it took 6 months to process the paperwork) and then the CORE. It's two different governments so they'll never agree to combine them.

I've also found the "new" hunters are pretty respectful. They grew up in the age of regulations and environmental concern. It's some of the old guys that are asshats. They ignore the regulations ('cause they own the woods, ya'know) and have never heard of "leave no trace". Or even "leave the camp cleaner than when you got there".

[boxhitch]

well, it depends on how you look at it. Some peopel think the CORE course is a great value and underpriced .. others think the opposite, some think the course is too long, others not. Obviously, the cost and time are going to be looked at differently by each individual, nothing new here. How ever, for those that think it's too expensive, takes too long, and is too hard ... I struggle with that. If you think about the responsibility of hunting ethically and safely, there's a lot there to think about. CORE gets you started and you learn and progress from there, it's certainly not the end all be all, it's just the start of your learning.
KInda my line of thinking too.
Not all students are equal, some are as green as grass, others have some hunting background. The CORE has to consider the student that has no experience, no mentor, no prior hunting knowledge.
With some instructors, even the current course is a cake walk, as the time and depth is somewhat discretionary.
A local instructor here has had fathers bring back kids as new hunters, because of his quality of instruction. He takes roughly 40 hrs for CORE alone.

[boxhitch]

I've also found the "new" hunters are pretty respectful. They grew up in the age of regulations and environmental concern.
I've seen that too. But have also seen some new Shooters be Azzhats as all they want to do is blow s#!t up.

[TIKA 300]

(quote=bigbore14;293747)
Why can't they simplify things so that you go to your PAL course, tested, continue with the same instructor to your CORE, tested, he posts the results online, you fill out your paperwork online, he sends your photo online and the govt mails you back your cards! Then the govnt builds a new hunters package at a reasonable cost to include all things neccesary and good enough to hunt with, including binos, first aid kit, rifle, scope, knife, sharpener, blah blah blah, all for a reasonalbe price.

Would this BE THE SAME GOVERNMENT THAT LEGISLATED GUN REGISTRATION,AND SPENT HOW MANY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS IMPLEMENTING IT :lol::lol::lol:

Not saying its a bad idea,i just think anything with GOVERNMENT involvment is another disaster waiting to happen TK

[hunter1947]

When I challenged my core test a lot of questions were strait forward.

I do agree with you on the coast factor ,it would be nice if there was some volunteers out there that would charge nothing for being an instructor ,this would help cut the coast down.

I do agree that there has to be a course on safety of guns etc ,if there wasn't I would not be out in the bush hunting ,ether that or I would be in a remote area where a rabbit wouldn't find me http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif.

[BiG Boar]

Ya, dont get me wrong I think the info in the courses (both) is great! I think its fine to challange the tests also. However I just find the whole process far too complex. Start to finish you can do it inside of 2 months I would bet (a total rush and better not screw up any forms), but to do that would be hard as there are so many steps in the whole process!

They do have guys who teach both courses or who you can challenge both tests at, but that is a small part of the process. I just think they got to make it an easier process.

And yes, the costs of getting everything done does add up. Minimum costs would be study book $20 Challange tests $50 Paperwork $110 Postage $2 HL $36 1 Tag $20 4 LEH Draws $20. Total minimum cost $258 and that doesnt include driving to and from the testing site, to the post office, to pick up your books, to pick up your results, to pick up your HL and LEH's. And all the time it takes to get it all done. Now if you add $150 for both courses ontop of that we are sitting at $400. And the real costs of hunting havnt even really begun! Dont get me started on the real costs of hunting!

A new person who knows nobody who hunts and is willing to take them and guide them through the process (and most Dads pay for thier kids (LEH advantage)) has very little chance of actually completing the courses and getting thier PAL and Hunter Number. You want new hunters? Fix the terrible process, and make things cheaper.

[ohno]

The cost of hunting is very reasonable when compared to the cost of other sports. Anyone have kids in hockey? Equipment is not cheap and kids out grow or wear it out every year. Then there is all the travel to/from practice and games.

The hunter # is good for the rest of your life and transferable to different provinces. The cost of a rifle or bow can be expensive, but you only "need" one :p and it can be used year after year. Think about the graduated drivers license system. It takes kids today 6mo to a year to get their DLs. Sure it is a PITA, but in todays over regulated society those are the hoops you have to jump through.

These costs are minor compared to the cost of traveling out to the bush to hunt. How much does a tank of fuel cost? Then there is the social aspect of hunting and the respect for nature and the environment. The knowledge of how the environment works is sadly lacking in our society today. When people create a traffic jam for "car free" day you know we have a problem.

[Barracuda]

Ya, dont get me wrong I think the info in the courses (both) is great! I think its fine to challange the tests also. However I just find the whole process far too complex. Start to finish you can do it inside of 2 months I would bet (a total rush and better not screw up any forms), but to do that would be hard as there are so many steps in the whole process!

They do have guys who teach both courses or who you can challenge both tests at, but that is a small part of the process. I just think they got to make it an easier process.

And yes, the costs of getting everything done does add up. Minimum costs would be study book $20 Challange tests $50 Paperwork $110 Postage $2 HL $36 1 Tag $20 4 LEH Draws $20. Total minimum cost $258 and that doesnt include driving to and from the testing site, to the post office, to pick up your books, to pick up your results, to pick up your HL and LEH's. And all the time it takes to get it all done. Now if you add $150 for both courses ontop of that we are sitting at $400. And the real costs of hunting havnt even really begun! Dont get me started on the real costs of hunting!

A new person who knows nobody who hunts and is willing to take them and guide them through the process (and most Dads pay for thier kids (LEH advantage)) has very little chance of actually completing the courses and getting thier PAL and Hunter Number. You want new hunters? Fix the terrible process, and make things cheaper.


Sorry but there are a great many folks on this board that went through the process without any help with no problems or issues . In fact you are the only person i can recall that has complained at the difficulty level and has claimed that it is too tough for a new or potential hunter to complete the task .

As for cost well for for $50 you get the whole ball of wax (2 tests and admin fee) and if ya cant borrow a book or cant find a library with one you can buy one for $13.95 . or ask at a local F&G club for info.
the cfsc book is 15 bucks and to challange the test is very often between 30 and 40 dollars for the pratical and written combined . But again it depends on what the instructer has chosen for priceing structure.

I have seen lots of combined instructed courses for around the 200 dollar mark . If a person is serious it is not very hard at all ,heck if they join a fish and wildlife club they will have plenty of help.

I would say if one finds it too difficult or they do not have the common sense to be able to study the material and pass then i really dont want them in the woods armed and dangerous:cool:

[Doe Eyes]

Wow...

I took my Firearms course in December...then challenged the CORE in Jan (after reading the book twice) and had both licenses in hand by Feb.

The only line I had to stand in was to get my hunter's card number and that was about 2 minutes.

I found the entire process a breeze...maybe I was just lucky?????

[silvicon]

it is much to easy to get a hunting lizense in BC.
there should be a severl month long course that gets down
to the nitty-gritty part of wildlife management, tracking, hunting, shooting.
a shooting exame (as in EU) to prove that one is able to safe handle and use the gun, able to hit the right target, able to shot 5 clays out of 10...

not as we have it now: buy a lizense, go out and shoot a moose/deer/bear in the guts and say "...i have missed"
when the animal runns away.

[Vansmasher]

like many other replies on this thread BigBore..... I definitely cannot agree that it is too difficult or too lengthy a process to get fully licenced to hunt. Everything in our society is going that way man..... it makes people more accountable. As far as the cost.... what is not going up in price these days???
The first time I got my FAC was in 1991..... I walked into the cop shop, filled out a form and gave the dude $10.... that was it!!! I don't even think I showed the cop my hunting licence. Just think of how many idiots would have guns now, if that was still the way. I realize many would not promote this method, I just thought I'd let you know how it was.
I'm all for the way it is now, that way only the serious people get it done.

[BiG Boar]

I agree with you silvicon, I wish they did put more tracking, hunting and shooting skills as part of the test. These are things that you are forced to learn later.

Doe eyes goes to prove my 3 month theory. Mind you he didnt tell you about what he paid for everything.

I am not complaining that the tests are too hard either as some people think I am. I wish you had to learn more, like how to start a fire so you dont die in the bush! I am just saying that they need to make the 3 - 6 month process shorter and easier to complete. But I understand how the govnt makes regulations and hoops. Personally I doubt hunting will be legal in 50 years, but that is a whole other subject. Maybe I will start a topic?

[BiG Boar]

like many other replies on this thread BigBore..... I definitely cannot agree that it is too difficult or too lengthy a process to get fully licenced to hunt. Everything in our society is going that way man..... it makes people more accountable. As far as the cost.... what is not going up in price these days???
The first time I got my FAC was in 1991..... I walked into the cop shop, filled out a form and gave the dude $10.... that was it!!! I don't even think I showed the cop my hunting licence. Just think of how many idiots would have guns now, if that was still the way. I realize many would not promote this method, I just thought I'd let you know how it was.
I'm all for the way it is now, that way only the serious people get it done.


You got a point there Vansmasher, we wouldnt want a bunch of people out in the bush that have no education on guns whatsoever. I am still saying I believe in the education, and even more, just simplify the process, and put the fees all in one place. Maybe they should re test the people who didnt pass the CORE and PAL exams (that got grandfathered into the system like Vansmasher) that are current like they do for drivers licence. Same thing for our aging population, I mean we wouldnt want some 70 year old out there with a gun and bad eyes. Ya They should test eyes too!!

[Barracuda]

since the old FAC has faded away everyone that wished to hold a PAL will have to have been tested. I think the best way for someone to enter into the arena of hunting is to get involved with a game club from the get go as you will get more of a support network and assistance if needed.

Bushcraft is something that would be good for folks to learn as well as some real world butchering skills.

[Pete]

Education is the key issue here. Those that think it should be made easier should maybe reconsider the edcuational value of the whole program. Most new hunters especially juniors have very limited experiences and in most cases the ideas and practical aspect of the programs are issues that they have never dealt with. We as an instructional cadre strive to pass on the knowledge accuired over years of experience as well as the concepts that are presented in the manuel.
You cannot get experience from a book. By far the majority of individuals that do not pass the program are those that home study. They may pass the written but in most cases fail terribly at the Firearms portion of the test but what have they truly learned?
When you challange an exam the expectation is there that you know your stuff, unfortunately more often than not the student is woefully unprepared. As an examiner I am there to TEST you not baby you through the testing process. When a student does not even have the basic concept of firearms handling or cannot even identify action types then gets upset when they don't pass they are the one that has the problem not me. If they think that I am going to sign off on them they have another thing coming. They pose a risk to themselves, to you, me and everything around them.
Take the course, enjoy yourself, learn as much as you can and ask questions, you may find that your depth of knowledge will be greatly enhanced and will give you something to fall back on when you need it.
Respectfully
Pete

[Barracuda]

I challenged the tests and passed them with no issues what so ever and that includes my restricted so it can be done depending on the person.

I actually found the testing fairly simple and straight forward hence my belief that if a person cannot or has difficulty passing the practical and written portions of the tests especially if they have taken the courses then they shouldnt be out there.

[Mr. Dean]

My take is look around and see what it costs to get involved with pretty near ANYTHING. This is a walk in the park when compared to hobbies such as hockey.

The time-line thing is MORE than just unnearving, that I agree with.

[behemoth]

Look on the bright side of things... All of this stuff you have to go through is actually teaching you two of the most important lessons in hunting.
1.) Patience
2.) Plannning for a hunt starts the day after hunting season ends.

It took me 5 years to learn those ones :wink:

[threedhunter]

timelines are variable.if a person challenges the pal test,(25 dollars) they pass, can have your card in 30to 35 days if done correctly. the examiner shuld walk you thru the application form. core should only cost 20 dollars (10 $ for written) or less to c hallenge.the app fee for nrpal is 60$, the fee that bcwf applies is 30$, so add that up. 25 +60+10+30+2=122$, if challenged.courses will be up to individual instuctors as far as price goes,time is worth something, even you get paid at work. in the end we sometimes pay our expenses, barely, sometimes not. we are mostly doing what we do to get more people involved, safely. not to line our pockets.some of us teach you how to start fires to save your life. whether you absorb that knowledge or not, is up to you.no test on that till your life depends on it.passing grades are you return home.learn from everyone you go backwoodsin it with. we can all teach someone somethin.:D

[Mr. Dean]

EDIT.
When I state timeline issue's, I'm meaning in regards with obtaining PAL AND finding the exact type of firearm a person is wanting.

Because of government red tape, a person is forced into looking at limited selections that are on the wall. If you want something different, its basically "good luck". Especially if your a lefty.

[threedhunter]

my appologies mr. dean, lefties are mostly overlooked, i agree.for lefties there is usually not many choices to be had,unless you want to order up what you would like to try out.one model at hunters , one at italian, you know, easy to choose that way. definatly got to feel right before the purchase.:-)threedhunter

[Johnnybear]

Look on the bright side of things... All of this stuff you have to go through is actually teaching you two of the most important lessons in hunting.
1.) Patience
2.) Plannning for a hunt starts the day after hunting season ends.

It took me 5 years to learn those ones :wink:

Very good insight. I agree completely. This is a long term investment not of money but of good times and great experiences that are priceless. It makes the wait worth it. I got a couple of folks into it last year and one this year with no problems about the wait or process.

[Allen50]

unbeliveble, the things people complane about, you want to hunt then take the course's, you want to drive now adays well you have to go through the proses as well, you just can't let new people out there with no info on what there doing, just like new drivers, if you send them out with out cources what will happen when they come to a red light, not knowing what to do, you have to learn to know your way around a gun, the woods and all the rules, i know seasonded hunters that don't know the regs all that well, you need a lawer to decifer them sometimes, I have hunted ever since i could remember, i learned from my dad and uncles, yea you might say it was easer back then, but we had someone to teach us, there is not that many dads out there to teach the new hunters now aday's, so other friends and hunters try to help out, and taking the course is the only way to keep ever one safe out there, and we all pay the price on tags and lic, etc, guns ,shells, any hunting gear, so much money spent, but hay this is are sport and we don't want to see it lost, to antiehunters, so lets help new hunter's make it through the course's, and all go out and come home safe after each hunt,,, only my part of this rant,, thanks,,, its only money...

[BiG Boar]

I am not compaining about the info taught in the course. I am complaining about the money and the delays and headache in all the processing!


unbeliveble, the things people complane about, you want to hunt then take the course's, you want to drive now adays well you have to go through the proses as well, you just can't let new people out there with no info on what there doing, just like new drivers, if you send them out with out cources what will happen when they come to a red light, not knowing what to do, you have to learn to know your way around a gun, the woods and all the rules, i know seasonded hunters that don't know the regs all that well, you need a lawer to decifer them sometimes, I have hunted ever since i could remember, i learned from my dad and uncles, yea you might say it was easer back then, but we had someone to teach us, there is not that many dads out there to teach the new hunters now aday's, so other friends and hunters try to help out, and taking the course is the only way to keep ever one safe out there, and we all pay the price on tags and lic, etc, guns ,shells, any hunting gear, so much money spent, but hay this is are sport and we don't want to see it lost, to antiehunters, so lets help new hunter's make it through the course's, and all go out and come home safe after each hunt,,, only my part of this rant,, thanks,,, its only money...