Elk harvest stats for 8-15

[Fisher-Dude]

Well, the verdict is in for the harvest stats in 8-15 now that we have a year of GOS 6 point in place versus the high-odds LEH of days gone by. Many predicted a "slaughter of trophy bulls" when the 6 point season was opened. This MU borders the West Kootenay proposed 6 point GOS that so many are opposed to, despite the biologists' assurances that there is no conservation concern.

Here ya go:

2006 LEH bulls: 15

2007 GOS 6 point: 17

So much for the "slaughter of trophy bulls" from a GOS bull elk season. :roll:

[boxhitch]

As usual, its what is missing that counts.
What was the pressure ? Hunter numbers ?

[sparkymacker]

As usual, its what is missing that counts.
What was the pressure ? Hunter numbers ?

What does that matter if only (2) more bulls were shot?

[Moosenose]

Thanks for this info F-D.
Appears that the biologists know what they are talking about. Maybe there will be more LEH areas opened up to GOS in light of this?

[boxhitch]

What does that matter if only (2) more bulls were shot?The post by F-D is in part, an answer to the concept that a change to GOS would cause a flood of hunters to the Hunt. The harvest shows that the numbers of kills was about the same, but does not show what the increase in effort was, if any.

[Monashee]

In 2007 there was a 15 day limited entry for 3 point and better bull elk in 8-15, from Sept 10 - 25 . The GOS was from Sept 26 - Oct 20 for 6 point bulls.

The harvest stats posted show GOS only . What about the limited entry season and the hunting guide allocation ?

[hunter1947]

Well, the verdict is in for the harvest stats in 8-15 now that we have a year of GOS 6 point in place versus the high-odds LEH of days gone by. Many predicted a "slaughter of trophy bulls" when the 6 point season was opened. This MU borders the West Kootenay proposed 6 point GOS that so many are opposed to, despite the biologists' assurances that there is no conservation concern.

Here ya go:

2006 LEH bulls: 15

2007 GOS 6 point: 17

So much for the "slaughter of trophy bulls" from a GOS bull elk season. :roll:
FD You can't compare other areas with one and another ,excess is the difference between one to others and the populations of the animals within that region :roll:.

[Fisher-Dude]

In 2007 there was a 15 day limited entry for 3 point and better bull elk in 8-15, from Sept 10 - 25 . The GOS was from Sept 26 - Oct 20 for 6 point bulls.

The harvest stats posted show GOS only . What about the limited entry season and the hunting guide allocation ?

Actually the harvest stats are for all bulls taken in each year. I don't yet have the breakdown of LEH/Guide/GOS in 2007. Regardless, there was no relevant increase in harvest by going with a 6 point GOS instead of a 36:1 once-in-a-lifetime (IF yer lucky) LEH.

It's also proposed that 4-18 goes on a Sept 10 opening this year too. Funny how we can GOS 4-18 right beside 4-17 and 4-16 (it's about 10 km from Krestova to Falls Creek) for years and years, and still pull huge bulls from 4-18 every year.

H47, the 8-15 opening is a model for the neighbouring WK MUs. The terrain is similar and the elk cross back and forth from the WK MUs to 8-15. It's indicative of what a GOS in the WK would be like in my opinion. As a trial hunt, I think we've learned lots about tossing high odds LEH in the trash and putting in a GOS that opens opportunities for everyone to hunt.

[Flinch]

If I am correct the stats posted by FD include the harvest during the GOS, the LEH and the GO harvest.....apples to apples.

Boxhitch, the annecdotal evidence (ie that from the locals) was that there did not appear to be a huge influx of hunters, the pressure was fairly well distributed and many of the bulls were shot by locals.

1947, I think you can make a very good comparison between 8-15 and the adjacent areas..... Long shot LEH, resistance from some to open it up to GOS for "fear of a slaughter" and the proof in the pudding that those hiding behind the fear-of-the-slaughter argument were wrong.

The intent is to increase harvest and increase opportunity. Here (8-15) is an example that it works. The West Kootenays have been managed for trophy production. That is what the retired biologist who managed the elk says. If you want trophy hunts then say so, but dont hide behind the "slaughter" argument. Winter range is what will limit the population in the west koots, not hunters on a GOS.

My opinion is that we manage for yield and opportunity, not trophys. Anyone can disagree, but disagree honestly with all the cards on the table.

[one-shot-wonder]

I agree Flinch!

Best thing that could happen to that part of the province, where winter range is at a premium. Open 'er up!

[mark]

As usual, its what is missing that counts.
What was the pressure ? Hunter numbers ?

I for one tried my luck out there, Im a pretty experienced elk hunter, spent 3 days out there, didnt see an elk. Hunting pressure was low where I was, the usual road hunter came by camp every few hours, but aside from that very quiet in the bush!

[Fisher-Dude]

I for one tried my luck out there, Im a pretty experienced elk hunter, spent 3 days out there, didnt see an elk. Hunting pressure was low where I was, the usual road hunter came by camp every few hours, but aside from that very quiet in the bush!

So, Mark saw few hunters, and Flinch heard the same thing. Interesting that the G/O in the area says that pressure is huge and that the elk hunters are killing off all the mule deer bucks in 8-15. One year it's killing off all the deer, the year before it was going to be slaughtering the bull elk, which failed to materialize. I've got the bio digging up some mule deer harvest stats by week for us on this one to see if there is a parallel between elk hunting pressure and incidental mule deer harvest, before we jump to further restrict the deer hunters as is the G/O's wish.

I'm not really sure if the G/O has resident opportunity as one of his priorities. :wink:

[Vader]

8-15 is not considered a trophy area nor is it reputed to have a high concentrations of wide spread elk populations. All reasons why a hunter would go out of his way to hunt elk in a particular area. I did not see many elk camps there either, I did see 20 man camps for the deer season though.
Again ask a hunter "where would you go if you were going to hunt a 350 inch elk". The answer would not be 8-15.
The elk in 4-18 do not have to go very far to move into a limited entry area where they would be rather untouched. Cross the highway and ...safety. The only access in the south end is through lemon Creek and pedro. Some landowner access albeit rather scanty in the beasly area and thats about it.. Unless you brought your horses or want to hoof from the road closures in about 12k. Hunting there is like the elk valley where elk can be on one side of the fence...no shooting..and smart enough to figure out if you cross the line you die.. Remove the safety boundaries and you will reduce the herd bulls.
I haven't seen anyone on here say there should be NO GOS, but I have seen many recommendations to get to a GOS in steps. Just to make sure the impact isn't drastic enough to set back what has been built up over the past 40 years. Considering that the elk have been managed for 40 years, I do not see populations that would indicate that they are thriving and infact increasing like ants. Problem elk are problem elk whether it is a band of 10 or a herd of a hundred, by the way there are no herds of 100 here ravaging hayfields and compost piles and gardens. Local problem elk are no more populace now than they were 10 years ago. Bolder yes, more in number, not really.
I do agree that the pressure would subside once the hunting population figured out that the hunt in the west is not a gimme and the expense to come here for a harvest may not outway the stay at home so they can do more local hunts to fill the tags. This all can be manage by increasing tag numbers in steps or shortened open seasons, or limited weapons. Educate the hunters and the elk. Small steps, but many of us so called "naysayers",(which is the wrong term), would rather ere on the side of caution to preserve populations than have a prediction whoopsie.
The goal for us all should be for sustainable resources to pass on to our successors.

[Fisher-Dude]

8-15 is not considered a trophy area nor is it reputed to have a high concentrations of wide spread elk populations. All reasons why a hunter would go out of his way to hunt elk in a particular area. I did not see many elk camps there either, I did see 20 man camps for the deer season though.
Again ask a hunter "where would you go if you were going to hunt a 350 inch elk". The answer would not be 8-15.
The elk in 4-18 do not have to go very far to move into a limited entry area where they would be rather untouched. Cross the highway and ...safety. The only access in the south end is through lemon Creek and pedro. Some landowner access albeit rather scanty in the beasly area and thats about it.. Unless you brought your horses or want to hoof from the road closures in about 12k. Hunting there is like the elk valley where elk can be on one side of the fence...no shooting..and smart enough to figure out if you cross the line you die.. Remove the safety boundaries and you will reduce the herd bulls.


Interesting perspective. My friend in Castlegar, who has lived there all his life and is an avid elk hunter, told me a few years back that I might want to put in for the 8-15 draw instead of the 4-16 draws at 100:1. He said 8-15 was a good draw to get, and that it held some whopper bulls too. He's not one to BS me and knows every inch of that country having hunted it for nearly 50 years. I'm confused by your assessment of the area as being spotty with no big bulls.

As for 4-18, look at the number of bulls that the Stetsko boys have pulled from that area over the years in the 350 and 360 class. Furthermore, the concept of "herd bulls" that must do the breeding is an old wives' tale. A sperm supply is all that it takes to keep a healthy herd going. 2 1/2 year old bulls will sire perfect offspring.

"Cross the safety line and you die" in 4-18? If access is as tough as you say it is, then what fear of dying would an elk have? Who's gonna pack 12 km? :wink:

[hunter1947]

Well, the verdict is in for the harvest stats in 8-15 now that we have a year of GOS 6 point in place versus the high-odds LEH of days gone by. Many predicted a "slaughter of trophy bulls" when the 6 point season was opened. This MU borders the West Kootenay proposed 6 point GOS that so many are opposed to, despite the biologists' assurances that there is no conservation concern.

Here ya go:

2006 LEH bulls: 15

2007 GOS 6 point: 17

So much for the "slaughter of trophy bulls" from a GOS bull elk season. :roll: What is the population of elk numbers in 8-15 ??? :roll:. I hit the wrong key ,sorry.

[Fisher-Dude]

What is the population of elk numbers in 1-15 ??? :roll:.

1-15? That's on Vancouver Island. You ever hunt Roosies there?

[rocksteady]

One year of statistics does not mean a whole bunch, this years harvest could be significantly higher. A little too early to be jumping to conclusions...I think...

[BCrams]

One year of statistics does not mean a whole bunch, this years harvest could be significantly higher. A little too early to be jumping to conclusions...I think...

Shouldn't there have been a 'slaughter' last fall as people like yourself would claim to happen? You know, all the dumb bulls?

If anything, I would say the harvest would remain the same or even lower from what I have seen in other areas.

I would say with the removal of the West Kootenay LEH, you will find many of the hunters who do converge on the area, are going to realize its not all cracked up to be considering how tough the hunting is compared to other areas like the East Kootenays for elk.

[BCrams]

8-15 is not considered a trophy area nor is it reputed to have a high concentrations of wide spread elk populations. All reasons why a hunter would go out of his way to hunt elk in a particular area.

I don't know about that one. I've heard of some dandy trophy bulls coming out of 8-15. A diamond in the rough you could say? Probably for the same reasons not many people consider 7-A to be a trophy area and the elk are wide spread too.

[bighornbob]

One year of statistics does not mean a whole bunch, this years harvest could be significantly higher. A little too early to be jumping to conclusions...I think...


Not according to what others have been saying. A lot of guys said it would be a slaughter the first year as the bulls have not seen a GOS. I would gues the numbers will probably stay the same if not decrease a little as the dumb elk have got shot.

BHB

[rocksteady]

Shouldn't there have been a 'slaughter' last fall as people like yourself would claim to happen? .


I have never claimed that there would be a slaughter.:roll::roll:

I am just saying that just because after 1 seaon of change that it is a be-all/end-all assumption....

Do we know exactly how many more hunters were in those areas?

How many hunters actually knew it had gone from LEH to GOS (unlike most of us on here, some people don't read the regs carefully)

If we were to see the numbers similar to what you have posted remain at a similar rate for a few years, maybe it is a good thing...However I am reluctant to make a conclusion after 1 season....

Your opinion may differ, and that's fine......

[GoatGuy]

I have never claimed that there would be a slaughter.:roll::roll:

I am just saying that just because after 1 seaon of change that it is a be-all/end-all assumption....

Do we know exactly how many more hunters were in those areas?

How many hunters actually knew it had gone from LEH to GOS (unlike most of us on here, some people don't read the regs carefully)

If we were to see the numbers similar to what you have posted remain at a similar rate for a few years, maybe it is a good thing...However I am reluctant to make a conclusion after 1 season....

Your opinion may differ, and that's fine......


This is all true - I suppose the intent should be to open it all up at once - create enough hunting opportunity that we don't have to open up the flood gates to one MU. There will be more opportunity in 7B this year and that should help spread things out as well.

Regardless of the hunting pressure, the 6pt season is a fail-safe season.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Remember-The 8-15 hunt last year had a Sept 25th starting date with the "majority" of the rutt come and gone. So how about a Sept 25th starting date 6pt season next door in the W Koots...at least to start with?? :|

Side note-The Reg 8 bio wants to harmonize the entire region starting date for the elk season back to Sept 25th.
We were hoping to move him to move it the other direction:?.

SSS

[Vader]

I don't know about that one. I've heard of some dandy trophy bulls coming out of 8-15. A diamond in the rough you could say? Probably for the same reasons not many people consider 7-A to be a trophy area and the elk are wide spread too.

I don't disagree with you there, however, ask hunters where they would think their chances are best for that "trophy" bull they've dreamed of and 8-15 would be on the list but not at the top.
Most hunters want to hunt the rut.. it's exciting.. not that Sept 25 is far removed from the rut but it does have hunters choosing other areas to hunt because its 15 days later than most and they want to optimize their opportunites to harvest and enjoy the experience of a rut hunt.
Certainly one would want to put in for LEH in a lower odds area.. 100:1 is not that appealing to most.. and 8-15 was certainly lower.. why? I think the odds remained higher in the West K just because it has delivered some awesome racks and hunters want a piece of that. Get some big numbers showing up and, just like fishing... if they are biting .. everyone is fishing..


As for 4-18, look at the number of bulls that the Stetsko boys have pulled from that area over the years in the 350 and 360 class. Furthermore, the concept of "herd bulls" that must do the breeding is an old wives' tale. A sperm supply is all that it takes to keep a healthy herd going. 2 1/2 year old bulls will sire perfect offspring.

I am well aware of the successes of some of the draw entries. I also know some of those draws were never hunted and some were hunted outside of the drawn boundary and yet others that were used to tag a bull that was second choice because the first one wasn't as good as the tag should have been used on. As far as the breeding process, the animal kingdom seems to do better when the strongest breed. Healthy as in numbers.. or healthy as in genetics? Two different concepts. Them wives seem to know some things. A 14yr old kid can produce offspring... doesn't make it right though.

[Fisher-Dude]

Genetics? That 2 1/2 year old bull will have the same genetics when he's a 7 year old, 400 class booner. DNA doesn't change when the elk gets older.

Morally you don't want the 14 year old human to father children, but the boy produces the same chromosones when he's 30 years old. Morals are, however, meaningless in the animal kingdom and reproduction science. Drawing a parallel between the morals of boys fathering children and younger bull elk siring calves is ridiculous and has nothing to do with the science of reproduction. :???:

Elk sperm is elk sperm. Elk sperm produces elk calves. The genetics of the siring animal won't change over time.

[Greenhead]

Man, way too much to read! but wanted to add 2 bits. People obviously aren't getting compulsery inspections done because I know of 12 guy's that shot elk in 8-15 and they all did so there were only 5 others???? The butcher had 24 elk or something like that through his doors from 8-15, he copies the tags? Somebody from the ministry has to do some homework.

[Fisher-Dude]

Man, way too much to read! but wanted to add 2 bits. People obviously aren't getting compulsery inspections done because I know of 12 guy's that shot elk in 8-15 and they all did so there were only 5 others???? The butcher had 24 elk or something like that through his doors from 8-15, he copies the tags? Somebody from the ministry has to do some homework.

I think you might have your MUs mixed up. ;) Either that or you know 12 of the 17 people who shot elk in 8-15. :lol:

[hunter1947]

We got to get all things clear befor we start saying thing about the harvest of elk in 8-15 :roll:. Tell me how many hunter actually hunted elk in 8-15 last year ???. Is it good excess into most areas ???. Compare the amount of area hunted to that of another area in the EK ??? ,compare the population of elk of 8-15 to an area in the EK of a area that has the same amount of land. How many permits for elk did they give out for LEH compared to another region for elk harvest ??? how dense is the land in 8-15 compared to other areas ???.

[Fisher-Dude]

We got to get all things clear befor we start saying thing about the harvest of elk in 8-15 :roll:. Tell me how many hunter actually hunted elk in 8-15 last year ???. Is it good excess into most areas ???. Compare the amount of area hunted to that of another area in the EK ??? ,compare the population of elk of 8-15 to an area in the EK of a area that has the same amount of land. How many permits for elk did they give out for LEH compared to another region for elk harvest ??? how dense is the land in 8-15 compared to other areas ???.

It's similar terrain to the WK. There's a reserve at the north end with an access closure, just like many of the WK units.

There were 17 hunters who shot elk in 8-15 last year. If you want to compare LEH numbers of permits, go read your regs.

[Greenhead]

Fisher-dude,
I presonaly know 12 people that shot elk in 8-15 one of them was an LEH so make that 11! My bad. Either way, people aren't getting inspections, and the CO up there needs have more of a presence. I just got back from Castlegar and saw CO's every day, then staopped in Grand forks and hunted Turkey for three days without any sign of the CO's, other than the one mowing his lawn at home!
GH

[RiverOtter]

Inspection on Region 8 elk is compulsory.

How does the butcher know what MU a particular elk was harvested, besides region 8?

I have never been asked by a butcher for anything other than a my species tag and that only states region, not MU.

RO

[spock]

I don't even know 12 people who have shot an elk "personally", unless an unusually a disproportionately large amount of people from chilliwack went to 8-15 to hunt elk I don't know how someone living 5 or 6 hours away would have such accurate knowledge of what was going up there. If there was widespread non compliance of compulsory inspection for elk in region 8 you would have to assume that it would be happening in the princeton, kelowna and rock creek christian valley herds at a comparable rate and non of those herds seem to be suffering on the six point restriction. At least anecdotally from what I have seen and heard from locals I know, including family members that have lived in that area their whole lives elk sightings are on the rise in their neck of the woods and from what I saw while hunting whitetail in November their was elk sign all over the hill that I hunt on.

[spock]

I don't even know 12 people who have shot an elk "personally", unless an unusually a disproportionately large amount of people from chilliwack went to 8-15 to hunt elk I don't know how someone living 5 or 6 hours away would have such accurate knowledge of what was going up there. If there was widespread non compliance of compulsory inspection for elk in region 8 you would have to assume that it would be happening in the princeton, kelowna and rock creek christian valley herds at a comparable rate and non of those herds seem to be suffering on the six point restriction. At least anecdotally from what I have seen and heard from locals I know, including family members that have lived in that area their whole lives elk sightings are on the rise in their neck of the woods and from what I saw while hunting whitetail in November their was elk sign all over the hill that I hunt on.

[Greenhead]

Spock, 9 of them live in GF alone! Everyone and their dog got out and hunted bulls this year, after putting in for the "Dream" LEH tag for so many years they all had the oppurtunity to get out hunt elk theve been watching for the last five years.

Your correct about the butcher, licences only say region 8, but thier big mouths say *****, *****, ********, ********* ****, ect. (had to be carefull there!, almost mentioned some peoples spots, YIKES) anyways all in the GF and Lake areas.
Believe me or not, who cares.
GH

[Stone Sheep Steve]

I do most of my own butchering but back 3-4 years ago I took a couple of bears in the butcher asked for the MU. Maybe things have changed:confused:.

I'm sure the management unit MUST be mentioned in the compulsary inspection.

SSS

[RiverOtter]

The MU must be disclosed in the compulsory inspection, as well as marking the exact kill site to the best of your knowledge. Having discussed this very issue, with the guy who does the inspections in Vernon, he told me that he is not allowed to disclose or personaly allowed to use any of that info. Whether or not that happens in all cases, I don't know.

On the other hand, any butcher that asked me for the exact MU/location would get laughed at. My hunting licence, tag# and region is more than enough info for him/her. If they pushed the issue and I was desperate for a place to hang/cut my meat, I'd bullchit my ars off.

RO

[palmer]

I do the Inspections for the Christina lake and GF area, I would say those stats are very close to being 100%. They are also very close to the harvest of the last few years.
The elk here are doing very very well and for locals harvesting a Bull was just not that tough. Pressure was heavy in some spots in 8-15, but with most of it being lower mainland hunters, and most going to traditional deer spots, harvest in these spots was very low.
If the west kootenay opens it will also lower pressure in 8-15 and by opening on Sept 25 it also allows some early breeding. In my opinion opening Elk here was a great step as LEH was very long odds.

[Monashee]

Does anyone know the elk harvest stats for 8-15 in 2008 ?

[Fisher-Dude]

Does anyone know the elk harvest stats for 8-15 in 2008 ?

Not yet. Bio told me last week they are just compiling info at this point. Might have something on 8-15 elk at our April FHAC meeting. I'll post them as soon as I get them.

[hunter1947]

Does 8-15 have spur roads every where ???? ,if not then this is one factor why you can't get to the elk that are in this region..

The EK region where I hunt there are spur road every where it makes it easy excess to the elk.

I would say that there are lots of hunters that won't go elk hunting because of the 6 point restrictions and going into unfamiliar grounds like 8-15 will keep them a way ,they would rather hunt filmier grounds.

I know that I would take my chances in a region that I know the land rather go to an region I don't know nothing about ,this is another factor as well.

Do you think for one moment that I will hunt 8-15 when I know nothing about this area ,not likely when it is only 6 point GOS I will take my chances on ground I have hunted elk for many years..

Myself I don't think the compulsory check works well ,many hunters ignore this and when they get harvest questionnaires in the mail they chuck them in the trash to protect them selfs from being caught if they did not get there elk compulsory checked..

Another note is why would the management open up a 3 point GOS in the WK for elk after they have just taken off the LEH ???? ,management did the right thing to start out with a 6 point season for elk in the WK 8-15.

I would think that the EK management would open up the 3 point season for elk first then the WK would they not ???

[d6dan]

[quote=hunter1947;430781]Do you think for one moment that I will hunt 8-15 when I know nothing about this area ,not likely when it is only 6 point GOS I will take my chances on ground I have hunted elk for many years..

Well, maybe I'll take you there and show you some good areas for elk H47. 8-15 is a vast area with lots of honey holes holding elk. The elk have come along way since 1972 when the GF wildlife club hooked up with the F&G and introduced 25 elk east of Christina Lake, Oh by the way theres been some real nice bulls shot since the first draws were issued.

[eastkoot]

Remember-The 8-15 hunt last year had a Sept 25th starting date with the "majority" of the rutt come and gone. So how about a Sept 25th starting date 6pt season next door in the W Koots...at least to start with?? :neutral:
Better check your RUT CALENDAR!!. You miss 2 - 3 weeks of early rut, yes, but the best is yet to come after the 25th..

[Fisher-Dude]

Myself I don't think the compulsory check works well ,many hunters ignore this and when they get harvest questionnaires in the mail they chuck them in the trash to protect them selfs from being caught if they did not get there elk compulsory checked..


Ignoring a CI is as illegal as shooting a 5 point bull. COs cross-reference butcher records to CI returns. Also, each time a CO checks a hunter he will check their tags, and if there is a region 8 elk tag punched, the CO records that in his notes along with the hunter number. This is then cross-referenced after its entry in the compliance database to CI returns to ensure that the rules were followed. Lots of opportunity for the poacher who doesn't report his kill to get caught in this system.

Sure, some arsehole may try to beat the system and perhaps a few do, but I'm willing to bet on well over 90% compliance with CI requirements (why the hell wouldn't someone report when it's the law, unless they are hiding what is already an illegal kill, like a 5 point?), and that gives reliable results for game managers to make informed decisions.

[d6dan]

All of 8-15 is compulsory reporting on elk, moose.

[SHAKER]

As usual, its what is missing that counts.
What was the pressure ? Hunter numbers ?

Doesn't matter........ It's opertunity to hunt, I'd rather be hunt'n then sit on the side lines watching some lucky guy with a piece of paper haveing all the fun.

[winbuckhunter]

wish they would open it in 8-23.. i know there theres a big herd!!! piss me off

[GoatGuy]

Doesn't matter........ It's opertunity to hunt, I'd rather be hunt'n then sit on the side lines watching some lucky guy with a piece of paper haveing all the fun.

Smart cookie.;)

[Vader]

Odds in 07-08 synopsis for 4-08a were 103-1.. 4-08b were 87-1.. 4-16a were 83-1.. 8-15 were 36-1.. and its neighbour 4-09, (the only neighbour) 29-1..Total hunters interested in 4-08, 4-16, 4-09 and 8-15 by zone applications for leh:

4-08.. 1385 hunters
4-16.. 1465 hunters
8-15.. 432 hunters
4-09.. 203 Hunters

Yup I can see why 8-15 would be overrun by hunters just clammering to get all them 350 class bulls that were harvested the year before and sighted prior to this years hunting season.. :eek:

You think maybe by looking at the applications for each zone you can tell where hunter interest is? I can.. but then that fact ain't in your report.
Do you think the hunters applying for those few LEH's like to hunt alone so they try to get low number draw areas.. or maybe, just maybe, they know where the big boys roam..

[GoatGuy]

Odds in 07-08 synopsis for 4-08a were 103-1.. 4-08b were 87-1.. 4-16a were 83-1.. 8-15 were 36-1.. and its neighbour 4-09, (the only neighbour) 29-1..Total hunters interested in 4-08, 4-16, 4-09 and 8-15 by zone applications for leh:

4-08.. 1385 hunters
4-16.. 1465 hunters
8-15.. 432 hunters
4-09.. 203 Hunters

Yup I can see why 8-15 would be overrun by hunters just clammering to get all them 350 class bulls that were harvested the year before and sighted prior to this years hunting season.. :eek:

You think maybe by looking at the applications for each zone you can tell where hunter interest is? I can.. but then that fact ain't in your report.
Do you think the hunters applying for those few LEH's like to hunt alone so they try to get low number draw areas.. or maybe, just maybe, they know where the big boys roam..

So we can now base demand on one year of the LEH synopsis ----- that there is interesting.

Should look at the number of people who buy 649s to figure out the number of people who want to be millionaires.:lol:

Wonder where the folks hunted from the WK hunted elk last year?

[Vader]

DUCK!

eeeeeeeeyyyyyyyooowwwwwwww

Whew! You almost got that one. It went right over your head!

Seriously,
Numbers have always been high, (at least for the 20+ years I have been applying).. I used those stats because they were handy.. No I did not research it for 24 hrs and peruse a bazzillion documents so I could gleen more stats out for ya. I took a snapshot from what I had and from what I recall.. so sue me..

I am not saying that 8-15 doesn't hold some decent elk nor do I state that nowhere else in BC are there trophy elk... All I pointed out was that hunter interest, according to numbers applying, APPEAR to focus where the trophies are, or ease of access is, and success ratios of BIG bulls is evident.. Otherwise why would you even try for an LEH when you can bang 'em in your back 40. Why waste the $6 and logistical effort on something you are going to hunt anyway? Plus it's closer to home next to the warm and fuzzy.

I have seen the odds get better as hunters have lost interest and hunter numbers have declined.. and then somebody kills or finds or sees a Booner and the numbers are right back up. Regardless, the odds have always been high, compared to other LEH only zones, which shows just how many want to get access to whats around in specific zones. Look at 4-32 where the floating bull was found in '94. Odds have been high there ever since.. about 585 put in for 9 tags in 07/08.. 4-33 has been pretty consistant with high numbers as well, 505 for 5 tags in 07/08. Why? hunters play those numbers on the 649 so they play those numbers on LEH? I doubt it.

As for where did the Wet K hunters hunt.. news bulletin.... in the BUSH! where the open seasons were.. and no I did not hunt 8-15 except for about 4 days, more exploratory than anything.. I did hunt where I was most familiar as did many others.. the East K because of the earlier season.

I did notice that the LEH for 8-15 in 05/06 and 06/07 were 40 compared to 07/08 which were 12, a 70% decrease! I think FD missed a year because the first open season was 08/09 not 07/08. If there was 17 harvested in 07 then there was massive poaching being reported!

Anyway they dropped available LEH's. Were hunters too successful, 38% is pretty high, or herd size wasn't there or some other reason? If elk were doing so well..well enough for a GOS.. why drop the numbers? Maybe because they wanted to lower interest before doing a GOS? Purely conjecture and open for discussion but maybe that has something to do with the low response to a GOS. It wouldn't be the first time an area was oversubscibed for the available species and hunters wised up, so really, a GOS wouldn't hurt the population because hunters wouldn't go there anyway.

[GoatGuy]

DUCK!

eeeeeeeeyyyyyyyooowwwwwwww

Whew! You almost got that one. It went right over your head!

Seriously,
Numbers have always been high, (at least for the 20+ years I have been applying).. I used those stats because they were handy.. No I did not research it for 24 hrs and peruse a bazzillion documents so I could gleen more stats out for ya. I took a snapshot from what I had and from what I recall.. so sue me..

I am not saying that 8-15 doesn't hold some decent elk nor do I state that nowhere else in BC are there trophy elk... All I pointed out was that hunter interest, according to numbers applying, APPEAR to focus where the trophies are, or ease of access is, and success ratios of BIG bulls is evident.. Otherwise why would you even try for an LEH when you can bang 'em in your back 40. Why waste the $6 and logistical effort on something you are going to hunt anyway? Plus it's closer to home next to the warm and fuzzy.

I have seen the odds get better as hunters have lost interest and hunter numbers have declined.. and then somebody kills or finds or sees a Booner and the numbers are right back up. Regardless, the odds have always been high, compared to other LEH only zones, which shows just how many want to get access to whats around in specific zones. Look at 4-32 where the floating bull was found in '94. Odds have been high there ever since.. about 585 put in for 9 tags in 07/08.. 4-33 has been pretty consistant with high numbers as well, 505 for 5 tags in 07/08. Why? hunters play those numbers on the 649 so they play those numbers on LEH? I doubt it.

As for where did the Wet K hunters hunt.. news bulletin.... in the BUSH! where the open seasons were.. and no I did not hunt 8-15 except for about 4 days, more exploratory than anything.. I did hunt where I was most familiar as did many others.. the East K because of the earlier season.

I did notice that the LEH for 8-15 in 05/06 and 06/07 were 40 compared to 07/08 which were 12, a 70% decrease! I think FD missed a year because the first open season was 08/09 not 07/08. If there was 17 harvested in 07 then there was massive poaching being reported!

Anyway they dropped available LEH's. Were hunters too successful, 38% is pretty high, or herd size wasn't there or some other reason? If elk were doing so well..well enough for a GOS.. why drop the numbers? Maybe because they wanted to lower interest before doing a GOS? Purely conjecture and open for discussion but maybe that has something to do with the low response to a GOS. It wouldn't be the first time an area was oversubscibed for the available species and hunters wised up, so really, a GOS wouldn't hurt the population because hunters wouldn't go there anyway.

The year of the drop was when they went LEH/GOS combination (2007-2008 ). Bit of a transition. Guess FD was right! ;) Now it's moved to a full blown GOS. Like the conjecture though - I'm sure it makes good fireside chat.

Good logic on the applications. Wonder why there are so many 3,4,5 and <300" 6 points? Wonder why the biggest bulls are still coming out of GOS and why nobody's been screaming to shut trout lake down to LEH? Probably some of the most limited winter range in BC but nobody's screaming - wonder why?

BTW 4-33 averaged ~50:1 until 2005, then it went up to 100:1. Shoots that theory all to hell as well but like you say it sounded good.

As a function of the hunting population per capita more pressure in 8-15 comes from the WK (Trail/Rossland/Castlegar guys) than anywhere else. Can't say it's surprising. I guess if you can't hunt in your bush it's always nice to be able to hunt in somebody else's although you might get in trouble. :lol:

Maybe we'll have a smokie over the campfire sometime. You can tell me about how you'd like to see yourself get drawn for LEH or something.

[Fisher-Dude]

Just got 2008 CI results for 8-15 bull elk. 10 elk killed. That's it. Guess we're not gonna shoot hundreds and wipe them out like the GOS's naysayers predicted.

So, time to look to the neighbouring MUs in region 4 and do the same thing. The argument that we would slaughter the R4W bulls (same opponents who said we'd clean out 8-15) just doesn't hold water when we look at the test case in 8-15.

[bigben]

delete please

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Just got 2008 CI results for 8-15 bull elk. 10 elk killed. That's it. Guess we're not gonna shoot hundreds and wipe them out like the GOS's naysayers predicted.

So, time to look to the neighbouring MUs in region 4 and do the same thing. The argument that we would slaughter the R4W bulls (same opponents who said we'd clean out 8-15) just doesn't hold water when we look at the test case in 8-15.

Thats because all the elk hunters were busy shooting all the reamining mule deer:lol:.

So I wonder what the topic of yelling will be on Satuday???;)

SSS

[Micky Finn]

This is all true - I suppose the intent should be to open it all up at once - create enough hunting opportunity that we don't have to open up the flood gates to one MU. There will be more opportunity in 7B this year and that should help spread things out as well.

Regardless of the hunting pressure, the 6pt season is a fail-safe season.

I agree. Let's do that for all species across the province.

With less than half the active hunters of the '80's, as much or more game and by doing it in a co-ordinated manner, we should have much less pressure.

One of the reasons we were conned into LEH for Moose in Region 5 was that as the last of the "Southern Regions" to be on GOS we saw a hugh increase in hunters. If all the regions went GOS, (with perhaps a very few conservation based exceptions) at the same time, with the same dates, rotating pressure spikes would not occur and everyone would get to hunt.

[boxhitch]

If all the regions went GOS, (with perhaps a very few conservation based exceptions) at the same time, with the same dates, rotating pressure spikes would not occur and everyone would get to hunt.Sounds way too easy. Wouldn't that mean that all the Emperors would have to come together on a common belief ?

[Fisher-Dude]

According to the statistic people at the trail big game banquet your harvest of elk in region 8 -15 is going to be approx 25 give or take a few ......... I know of three that were taken from there by hunters from my home town .............lets see how close I came to it once they release the info from the MINISTRY OF ENVIROMENT .............I just curious how good the locals are at knowing the numbers .................

The 10 elk harvested IS from the Ministry of Environment. You can believe a bunch of bullshitters at a fish and game banquet giving their opinion on how many elk they "think" will be shot, or you can take the harvest figure emailed to me by the regional biologist based on the number of bulls compulsory inspected. I'll take the latter.

[GoatGuy]

According to the statistic people at the trail big game banquet your harvest of elk in region 8 -15 is going to be approx 25 give or take a few ......... I know of three that were taken from there by hunters from my home town .............lets see how close I came to it once they release the info from the MINISTRY OF ENVIROMENT .............I just curious how good the locals are at knowing the numbers .................


http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/cid:%7B823C6CFE-16A6-4639-9689-908FC4C15CD4%7D/P9130058_resamp.jpg

Doesn't matter 6 pts a fail-safe season. Not even worth talking about. Time to pull elk off of compulsory reporting or inspection. Just a waste of time.

[boxhitch]

Just a waste of time.Unless you are into managing people.

[GoatGuy]

Unless you are into managing people. Or eliminating them all together.:wink:

[GoatGuy]

So let me get this straight you open up a GOS in 8 15 I still want to know what the population stands at for this area ...........I have hunted this area with my partner on limited entry tag and in 7 days of hunting only saw 5 cows and one bull in the back of elk creek outfitters at the end of the quad trail up from the gravel pit tothose of you that hunted there you know where I mean........now your saying that we should open up the region 4 15 16 17 08 to GOS ........I am wondering because I have hunted in 4 15 with a limited entry tag and harvested a magnificent 360 bull and I have not been drawn for this area again I also hunted 4 08 and 416 and 4 17 with buddies that have tags success was with two of three nice bulls in the 330 class and one in the 380 class .......the areas I have been in won t take long for the GOS to destroy what has taken 30 plus years to provide us with these brutes that we have in these areas.......not all of these areas are hard to access and there are many pockets that I have found if given a GOS I definitely would go back and harvest a bull and any friend that wanted to come with me could do the same thing ..........my beef is that there many hunters applying for these areas because they know the big bulls are there so there is way I would dissect this hunting oppurtunity ..........INCREASE THE TAGS ................ A GOS in my book would not only increase elk hunter as the years go by but it would definitely work against the sustained elk herd that are there today ............just my two cents worth

If you only saw one bull and a couple of cows on an LEH in 8-15 it's because you don't know where to go.


You shot a 360 bull, good for you, there's plenty of those that are shot in GOSs every single year.

Your buddies shoot 330 bulls? Good God man - you can find better bulls in the EK. I can't believe somebody would honestly shoot a bull like that when they could shoot one of those in a gos anywhere there's elk. The guys in Region 8 are shooting better bulls than that! My buddy has 4 sets of antlers on his shed collecting weather that are all 350+ and all out of GOSs. They aren't too hard to find - head out to Trout Lake and spend some time and you'll find big bulls (don't forget your raingear). My buddy shot a 400+ bull in a GOS just last year - nevermind the bulls they've killed there in the past. All that has nothing to do with LEH - that's all just brainwashing.

A 6 pt season is a fail-safe season. You won't affect the herd health (other than possibly genetically in the long term) especially in the WK where more than half of the spots have no access. It's true you won't find much walking across the road that big in a GOS but there will always be monsters if you put a couple miles under your feet. Opening things up in the WK will also help spread the pressure out across the Province - good for all hunters and all harvest. Take some of the pressure off the mule deer in 8-15 that all the folks from the WK are coming and pounding because they want to go elk hunting and they don't want an elk season in their own backyard. Too funny really - it won't be funny if we have to make changes to the mule deer season though.

Head out to trout lake, strap on your boots and go hunting for elk - you'll find big bulls and you don't need no stinkin' LEH. Tell your buddies not to burn their tags on 330 bulls. There's plenty of spots in the EK for those.

[bighornbob]

Bigben

The problem with the LEH tags in the west koots is half the guys that get them shoot the first bull they see. Sure it produces some monsters but I personally know of two bulls (4 pointers) that were shot by rookie hunters. Good for them for getting an elk but not everybody that gets those tags are in it for the horns.

BHB

[mcrae]

Bigben

The problem with the LEH tags in the west koots is half the guys that get them shoot the first bull they see. Sure it produces some monsters but I personally know of two bulls (4 pointers) that were shot by rookie hunters. Good for them for getting an elk but not everybody that gets those tags are in it for the horns.

BHB

I had an LEH tag in the W.Koots a couple of years ago and I had zero experience field judging elk. I passed on four bulls the first morning. On the second morning I took what to my eyes was a HUGE elk:lol:. It was a solid six point elk and a helluva a first elk but it was not a 380+ bull. A huge bull no way but a trophy to me....

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/sako555/Picture213.jpg

[boxhitch]

A huge bull no way but a trophy to me....Thats what it should be about. A hunter making his own choice, not someone else saying that only brutes should be shot.

[Fisher-Dude]

I had an LEH tag in the W.Koots a couple of years ago and I had zero experience field judging elk. I passed on four bulls the first morning. On the second morning I took what to my eyes was a HUGE elk:lol:. It was a solid six point elk and a helluva a first elk but it was not a 380+ bull. A huge bull no way but a trophy to me....

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/sako555/Picture213.jpg

That's a dandy bull! I had the 109:1 draw in the mid-90s, and shot a nice 6x5 that was in the 260 class. It was an exciting hunt as the bull was very vocal and came charging through the thick bush right at me. Sure tasted good too!

Lots of guys said I pulled the trigger way too fast, but knowing some who have been drawn there that didn't get their bulls, I'm quite happy. My largest elk has come from EK GOS, scoring 323. Who needs LEH for big bulls? ;)

[Brambles]

In my opinion if you think that a GOS in 8-15 and a GOS in the big bull regions of the west kootenays is the same then you don't know what your talking about. Sure you can throw numbers around and act smart but the fact of the matter is the West Kootenay LEH zones are transplanted elk from Banff and they have generations of not fearing people. If you had experiance in each unit then you'd know what I"m talking about. I won't lie, there are A LOT of elk in those LEH Zones, a lot of hard work by local clubs has worked towards that but 8-15 is NOT comparable.

I'm in favor of opening up more hunter opportunity in those areas, don't get me wrong, but a full GOS or even half a season GOS is the wrong thing to do right off the bat. Be patient, if done correctly you can have a full GOS AND trophy bulls but its gonna take time.

The problem is that guys get on the Computron and start pushing and pushing. Each time a Elk thread gets started it always ends up in a debate and gets pushed again and again.

These elk are vulnerable and there WILL be A LOT of bulls killed unless they are educated and eased into increased hunter pressure. Nothing will be lost if worked into it slowley BUT if you work into it too quickley then the damage could be irreversible.

They are starting to offer more and more LEH authorizations, and IMO that is a good start. After a few more years of increased LEH numbers that would ease us nicely into a partial GOS partial LEH, etc etc.

My biggest concern is maintaining the resource that many have worked hard for. We need to have a plan. Just like you wouldn't go and cut down all the trees on the planet Just because they are there and everyone is entitled to cut down trees if they wish.

My opinion of course, I'm sure many will disagree.

[Fisher-Dude]

Sure you can throw numbers around and act smart but the fact of the matter is the West Kootenay LEH zones are transplanted elk from Banff and they have generations of not fearing people.

Where do you think the 8-15 elk came from? Did you think they may have wandered the 10 km from the WK herds? :wink:

These elk are vulnerable and there WILL be A LOT of bulls killed unless they are educated and eased into increased hunter pressure. Nothing will be lost if worked into it slowley BUT if you work into it too quickley then the damage could be irreversible.

That right there is some hilarious shit! Yeah, tame elk. Right. Irreversable? How many elk were there before the transplants? From nothing we went to a huntable herd. We can't possibly shoot them all, yet we've shown we can go from zero to what we have now. Irreversable is NOT possible.

We already hunt neighbouring 4-18 on a GOS, and it produces whoppers every year. We've had a GOS in 4-18 for ages without hurting the population. Or, are you saying they aren't tame in 4-18? :lol:;-)

They are starting to offer more and more LEH authorizations, and IMO that is a good start. After a few more years of increased LEH numbers that would ease us nicely into a partial GOS partial LEH, etc etc.

Sure, increase the number of LEH so the odds go from 85:1 to 55:1. That accomplishes nothing. People will NOT get to go hunting, even if we doubled or tripled the LEHs.

My biggest concern is maintaining the resource that many have worked hard for. We need to have a plan. Just like you wouldn't go and cut down all the trees on the planet Just because they are there and everyone is entitled to cut down trees if they wish.

This reeks of NIMBY. The plan is to hunt the elk. The research has already been done by some of the best biologists we have, and they are recommending a GOS 6 point season, because we CANNOT affect the population with such a restrictive season. It's this kind of opinion that is killing off hunting in areas where there is no reason we shouldn't have GOS seasons.

My opinion of course, I'm sure many will disagree.

Yup. Might as well wait your 95 years before you get drawn - how old will you be then? :razz:



.....................................

[kootenayelkslayer]

I agree with Brambles on this one, in terms of increasing the number of LEH allocations. And then, one day, maybe move to a partial open season (similar to the way 4-18 use to be).
I'm really interested to hear what the harvest statistics were this year for 4-18. The last time they opened 4-18 right up (in '98 or '97... ?) it was a bad, bad move. This year, from what I've heard and seen, there were alot of bulls shot. Maybe too many?? Hard to say. There's no doubt that the population in 4-18 is better now then it was in '97/'98.

[bigben]

Fisher -Dude you keep bringing up how good our biologist is ..........do me a favor if you can and educate all the people on this website on why there is no grizzly hunting in zones 4 04 , 4 03, 4 06 when three years ago zone 4 05 had 3 permits there..........also look at zone 4 23 zone b and ask yourself why there is only 1 tag there......I want to go on but I am getting a feeling that we are all losing a battle that we can not win unless we start showing some kind of unity as a coalition of residents hunters all fighting for the same cause ......if your biologist are so strong on the fact that the elk can withstand a GOS season then why do n t they impliment it ..........they took those bear tags away stating there are no bears in region 4 05 and 406 .... .....I beg to differ hunted them all my life and the bears are there anytime you want to come up and see one give me a call glad to show you.............. also I am torn between what a hunt is called trophy vs meat .........you want the west kootenay hunts as bad as I do did kill a bull there and had a awesome hunting experience do it again in heart beat .................here is my idea ........... get on with it form a coalition .............. ask what they want ............. let the democratic vote dictate what happens ..........it seems to work with the polticians why can it not work for us ............... my idea open the season or hand out more tags in leh to increase hunters oppurtunity why don t we even implement different seasons like sept 1 to 10 bow only sept 10 to 20 , then sept20 to 30 and so on and give out more permits ,............ whatever but get on with it my fingers are tired of beating this around all the time .................. I am only here on this beautiful earth for so long and as a resident of this beautiful province I would like indulge in hunting .........my opinion thank you


Kootenay slayer I am with you on this too I heard the same thing you did also heard that 4 18 got hammered this year to but we have to wait for the biologist to tell us how many has been shot take care

[GoatGuy]

In my opinion if you think that a GOS in 8-15 and a GOS in the big bull regions of the west kootenays is the same then you don't know what your talking about. Sure you can throw numbers around and act smart but the fact of the matter is the West Kootenay LEH zones are transplanted elk from Banff and they have generations of not fearing people. If you had experiance in each unit then you'd know what I"m talking about. I won't lie, there are A LOT of elk in those LEH Zones, a lot of hard work by local clubs has worked towards that but 8-15 is NOT comparable.

I'm in favor of opening up more hunter opportunity in those areas, don't get me wrong, but a full GOS or even half a season GOS is the wrong thing to do right off the bat. Be patient, if done correctly you can have a full GOS AND trophy bulls but its gonna take time.

The problem is that guys get on the Computron and start pushing and pushing. Each time a Elk thread gets started it always ends up in a debate and gets pushed again and again.

These elk are vulnerable and there WILL be A LOT of bulls killed unless they are educated and eased into increased hunter pressure. Nothing will be lost if worked into it slowley BUT if you work into it too quickley then the damage could be irreversible.

They are starting to offer more and more LEH authorizations, and IMO that is a good start. After a few more years of increased LEH numbers that would ease us nicely into a partial GOS partial LEH, etc etc.

My biggest concern is maintaining the resource that many have worked hard for. We need to have a plan. Just like you wouldn't go and cut down all the trees on the planet Just because they are there and everyone is entitled to cut down trees if they wish.

My opinion of course, I'm sure many will disagree.

That's the way things transitioned in 8-15. Slowly off LEH.

In any case the areas where most guys currently hunt and see elk will likely get hunted pretty heavily, there's no doubt. However, most of the areas have little to no access and they'll always have big bulls. It's just way too much of a jungle in most of the WK and there ain't much access.

We all know a 6 pt season is a fail safe season and elk learn quickly. You will loose the 'trophy' component in areas that are easily accessed just like every where else. I think that's where a lot of the resistance comes from - there's no solution for that problem. Even by increasing the draws the trophy component in easily accessed areas will go down.

Just the way she goes.

[Brambles]

.
Sure you can throw numbers around and act smart but the fact of the matter is the West Kootenay LEH zones are transplanted elk from Banff and they have generations of not fearing people.

Where do you think the 8-15 elk came from? Did you think they may have wandered the 10 km from the WK herds? :wink:

What West kootenay LEH zones have you hunted, scouted and glassed?


These elk are vulnerable and there WILL be A LOT of bulls killed unless they are educated and eased into increased hunter pressure. Nothing will be lost if worked into it slowley BUT if you work into it too quickley then the damage could be irreversible.

That right there is some hilarious shit! Yeah, tame elk. Right. Irreversable? How many elk were there before the transplants? From nothing we went to a huntable herd. We can't possibly shoot them all, yet we've shown we can go from zero to what we have now. Irreversable is NOT possible.

Good argument.......Gee we cant kill them all so lets have a free for all.

It took about 30 years to do it. The whole push is because people want to kill big elk. If you just wanted to kill any bull then go over to the East Kootenays and hunt there. Its a far easier hunt and far far more elk are taken per year then have EVER been killed in year in the WK. The whole alure to the WK elk is their size. So lets take steps to increase the chances that people will still be hunting big elk GOS in the future.

The people who argue for Full WK GOS and say they arn't in it for the size of the elk are BSing you. There is no other reason to choose the WK over the EK for elk hunting other than size.

Steeper uglier terrain, access issues, access restrictions, thicker bush, limited open terrain, far fewer elk numbers, the only reason to want to hunt WK elk is because you have an honest chance at taking a bull of a lifetime if you can lay off the trigger long enough.


We already hunt neighbouring 4-18 on a GOS, and it produces whoppers every year. We've had a GOS in 4-18 for ages without hurting the population. Or, are you saying they aren't tame in 4-18? :lol::wink:

Exactly, we have been hunting 4-18 for years and it has been VERY closely monitored. They tried to open it up from a one week non-rut season to a full GOS season including the rut in one year and the elk got killed in larger then expected numbers. Guess what, the next year and some years to follow the Season got slammed shut, they are JUST starting to reopen the season. But guess what? they are doing it slowely this time and it seems to be working. Be patient

If we work into it slowely we can avoid the yo-yo season closures. But it will take some time and people will have to be patient.


They are starting to offer more and more LEH authorizations, and IMO that is a good start. After a few more years of increased LEH numbers that would ease us nicely into a partial GOS partial LEH, etc etc.

Sure, increase the number of LEH so the odds go from 85:1 to 55:1. That accomplishes nothing. People will NOT get to go hunting, even if we doubled or tripled the LEHs.

In TIME they will be able to hunt, stop being soooo impatient, your starting to wreak of greed. There is no harm in working into it slowely but there could certainly be harm in working into it too fast. Hunter opportunity isn't the only issue to consider.


My biggest concern is maintaining the resource that many have worked hard for. We need to have a plan. Just like you wouldn't go and cut down all the trees on the planet Just because they are there and everyone is entitled to cut down trees if they wish.

This reeks of NIMBY. The plan is to hunt the elk. The research has already been done by some of the best biologists we have, and they are recommending a GOS 6 point season, because we CANNOT affect the population with such a restrictive season. It's this kind of opinion that is killing off hunting in areas where there is no reason we shouldn't have GOS seasons.

Over eons man has proven he is Very capable of AFFECTING nature, think carefully and tread softly. Slow and steady wins the race. The end result will still be the same, its just gonna take some time


My opinion of course, I'm sure many will disagree.

Yup. Might as well wait your 95 years before you get drawn - how old will you be then? :razz:

Its not all about personal greed Dude, I can wait patiently. You can't blame West Kootenay ELK LEH for decline in hunter numbers. They have NEVER been GOS elk so it was nothing that was taken away, people arn't missing anything. There are other issues floating around that will affect hunter numbers more than a small portion of the west kootenay elk zones.



....................................




.......................................

[Fisher-Dude]

Sure you can throw numbers around and act smart but the fact of the matter is the West Kootenay LEH zones are transplanted elk from Banff and they have generations of not fearing people.

Where do you think the 8-15 elk came from? Did you think they may have wandered the 10 km from the WK herds? :wink:

What West kootenay LEH zones have you hunted, scouted and glassed?

4-14, 4-15, 4-16, 4-17, 4-18, 4-28, 4-29, 4-30, 4-31, 4-38


These elk are vulnerable and there WILL be A LOT of bulls killed unless they are educated and eased into increased hunter pressure. Nothing will be lost if worked into it slowley BUT if you work into it too quickley then the damage could be irreversible.

That right there is some hilarious shit! Yeah, tame elk. Right. Irreversable? How many elk were there before the transplants? From nothing we went to a huntable herd. We can't possibly shoot them all, yet we've shown we can go from zero to what we have now. Irreversable is NOT possible.

Good argument.......Gee we cant kill them all so lets have a free for all.

It took about 30 years to do it. The whole push is because people want to kill big elk. If you just wanted to kill any bull then go over to the East Kootenays and hunt there.

There is no "any bull" in the East Kootenays. It's 6 point only.


Its a far easier hunt and far far more elk are taken per year then have EVER been killed in year in the WK.

You admit that the WK is a tougher hunt, so there should be no conservation concern - as there is no conservation concern in the EK right now. Thanks for admitting how difficult the WK hunt is, it proves what the bios, GG, and I have been saying. :razz:


The whole alure to the WK elk is their size. So lets take steps to increase the chances that people will still be hunting big elk GOS in the future.

There are big elk taken all over the province. If you want to hunt big elk, there are some 370+ ones in 7B right now on GOS. The EK produces some too, as does the Okanagan. Buddy killed a 340 here 2 years ago, and I saw pics of what had to be a 360 taken in 8 as well last year. How about that stud shot in Creston last year?


The people who argue for Full WK GOS and say they arn't in it for the size of the elk are BSing you. There is no other reason to choose the WK over the EK for elk hunting other than size.

The reason is that it is impossible to stockpile game. The carrying capacity of the land limits you every time. If there's a huntable population, we should be hunting it. The reason you don't want people hunting elk there is because you're afraid they will shoot your mule deer. :razz:


Steeper uglier terrain, access issues, access restrictions, thicker bush, limited open terrain, far fewer elk numbers, the only reason to want to hunt WK elk is because you have an honest chance at taking a bull of a lifetime if you can lay off the trigger long enough.

There are tonnes of bulls of all sizes in the WK. Hunting only 6 points means that there will be always be recruitment of younger bulls to the whopper class. It's proven to be foolproof to not affect population levels.



We already hunt neighbouring 4-18 on a GOS, and it produces whoppers every year. We've had a GOS in 4-18 for ages without hurting the population. Or, are you saying they aren't tame in 4-18? :lol::wink:

Exactly, we have been hunting 4-18 for years and it has been VERY closely monitored. They tried to open it up from a one week non-rut season to a full GOS season including the rut in one year and the elk got killed in larger then expected numbers. Guess what, the next year and some years to follow the Season got slammed shut, they are JUST starting to reopen the season. But guess what? they are doing it slowely this time and it seems to be working. Be patient

If we work into it slowely we can avoid the yo-yo season closures. But it will take some time and people will have to be patient.

We're losing hunters left right and centre. How many years should we be patient? 10? 20? We'll be history if we wait that long.



They are starting to offer more and more LEH authorizations, and IMO that is a good start. After a few more years of increased LEH numbers that would ease us nicely into a partial GOS partial LEH, etc etc.

Sure, increase the number of LEH so the odds go from 85:1 to 55:1. That accomplishes nothing. People will NOT get to go hunting, even if we doubled or tripled the LEHs.

In TIME they will be able to hunt, stop being soooo impatient, your starting to wreak of greed. There is no harm in working into it slowely but there could certainly be harm in working into it too fast. Hunter opportunity isn't the only issue to consider.

If being concerned for the future of hunting is greedy, then give me the label. I doubt that I'll hunt the WK much, as I prefer the EK and love to go to the areas I've hunted for over 30 years.




My biggest concern is maintaining the resource that many have worked hard for. We need to have a plan. Just like you wouldn't go and cut down all the trees on the planet Just because they are there and everyone is entitled to cut down trees if they wish.

This reeks of NIMBY. The plan is to hunt the elk. The research has already been done by some of the best biologists we have, and they are recommending a GOS 6 point season, because we CANNOT affect the population with such a restrictive season. It's this kind of opinion that is killing off hunting in areas where there is no reason we shouldn't have GOS seasons.

Over eons man has proven he is Very capable of AFFECTING nature, think carefully and tread softly. Slow and steady wins the race. The end result will still be the same, its just gonna take some time

Again, how many years do you wait while your hunting heritage fades into oblivion?



My opinion of course, I'm sure many will disagree.

Yup. Might as well wait your 95 years before you get drawn - how old will you be then? :razz:

Its not all about personal greed Dude, I can wait patiently. You can't blame West Kootenay ELK LEH for decline in hunter numbers. They have NEVER been GOS elk so it was nothing that was taken away, people arn't missing anything. There are other issues floating around that will affect hunter numbers more than a small portion of the west kootenay elk zones.

All LEH contributes to the decline in hunter numbers. Guys putting in for 85:1 odds eventually say screw it. They want to hunt the elk around their hometowns, but we won't let them. Not everyone is prepared to travel. And why should they when there is a huntable population half an hour from home?

[mcrae]

How do you guys feel about an archery season in these LEH zones? Say Sept 1-10 like the 4-18?Not sure if 8-15 has the same one or not...

[kootenayelkslayer]

How do you guys feel about an archery season in these LEH zones? Say Sept 1-10 like the 4-18?

I think there would be a lot of big bulls getting shot... with crossbows :-P

[d6dan]

For the record boys, those elk in 8-15 were transplanted in 1972 at Laferty pit just east of christina lk. 25 in total. and the christian valley elk are a mingling with them. what a sucess...

[bigben]

We all know a 6 pt season is a fail safe season and elk learn quickly. You will loose the 'trophy' component in areas that are easily accessed just like every where else. I think that's where a lot of the resistance comes from - there's no solution for that problem. Even by increasing the draws the trophy component in easily accessed areas will go down (STATED BY GOAT GUY)

So do we not know how many elk are in the easy to access places with a six point restriction in place we should have a good handle on the amount of mature bulls we can take out of there and adjust it according .........this is if the biologist does his count right on the elk population that is in this management unit through compulsory inspections and manditory card harvest returns if your only taking 10 bulls they have the count on their computer when the LEH are drawn and make it mandatory to fill them out ...........after all this you should have a good handle on what you put out there to what was harvest .

[boxhitch]

We all know a 6 pt season is a fail safe season and elk learn quickly.

........with a six point restriction in place we should have a good handle on the amount of mature bulls we can take out of there and adjust it according .........this is if the biologist does his count right on the elk population that is in this management unit through........I had to try to explain about trophys to some kids.....
"How can I make this easy.......
You have a sack full of jelly beans of mixed colors. You are fussy and want all the red ones, they are special. Some non-fussy guys come along and grab a handful , Ahh crap they may have got a red one. So what, the sack is still full. You decide to take out all the red ones, Ahh crap the level drops a bit. So what, the sack is basically still full. And chances are you didn't get them all an the next guy has a chance too. And by next year the sack is refilled and some of the black ones will turn red and you can try again.
If this were the only sack in town, you might have trouble. but everyone has a sack........"

[GoatGuy]

So do we not know how many elk are in the easy to access places with a six point restriction in place we should have a good handle on the amount of mature bulls we can take out of there and adjust it according .........this is if the biologist does his count right on the elk population that is in this management unit through compulsory inspections and manditory card harvest returns if your only taking 10 bulls they have the count on their computer when the LEH are drawn and make it mandatory to fill them out ...........after all this you should have a good handle on what you put out there to what was harvest .


We know the bull:cow ratio can be brought down to 10:100 without affecting the health of the herd (timing of breeding). On a 6 pt only season you're probably going to end up with a bull:cow ratio of 15-25:100 if you shot every single 6 pt+ bull. That's the fail-safe part and we all know, especially in the WK, that you'll never shoot every single 6 pt bull.

You'll have an extremely difficult time counting the elk in the WK.

The biggest thing people don't realize is that it didn't take 25 years to get the elk herd to where it is today. The WSI can be so high in the WK that one bad year and you're back to ground zero. That's what happened in the late 90s and essentially we ended up wasting a pile of elk.

It's like the deer in the Peace - the regs should be somewhat reactive but at the same time, when things are good, you best be getting out there and harvesting otherwise mother nature will take them from you in one fell swoop.


Just the way she goes.

[bigben]

BOXHITCH in referance to my statement .............six point season in east kootenays still a sack full of beans out here and lotsa red ones too.................just tired of all the data and biological mumbo jumbo that we continue to beat to death...........it will never end if nothing is implimented to make the hunting better for all of us hunters in b c ......the saga continues good luck

[palmer]

Well I was out in 8-15 yesterday looking for some Turkeys and came across about 40 Elk with three Bulls in the herd. That is the third herd I have seen in the last two weeks. And yes these herds were about 10 miles apart on different ranges. So some Elk have survived the open season. Plus last year the second of a GOS a 380 Bull was shot, so some are still getting old. As a local a GOS is way better than LEH, at least I get to go hunting, in 20yrs of LEH I never got one for 8-15...

[boxhitch]

palmer, what was the traffic like during GOS ? Was parking a problem ? ;)

[palmer]

palmer, what was the traffic like during GOS ? Was parking a problem ? ;)

I use to hunt region 5 during the GOS for moose...so it seems like no body is here...LOL..

[pistolpete]

Good day guys! I live in the WK & it sure is nice seeing the big bulls. I've puttng in LEH for 20 years & one day I hope.
But I wouldn't like to see them open it up.
Keep putting in for these big ones. Their nice.

[Devilbear]

I would definitely like to see ALL of the West Kootenays on a 3-pt. and larger GOS as well as a FEW of the more limiting "vehicle closures" modified.

I also see NO reason for limiting Elk there to LEH again, the problem there with access due to religious objections to guns (Doukhobours) and hippies getting "special access management areas" has made the hunting SO difficult that relatively few will succeed.

There is far too much or this "trophy" nonsense in today's hunting and that has a LOT to do with WHY B.C. active hunter numbers have declined. I can vividly remember the '50s, when almost everyone hunted and we had Elk racks galore and BIG ones nailed all over Nelson and THIS was when most hunters left racks in the bush to save the work of packing them out.

I want to go hunting at home and without any BS about "trophies" and I damm well am tired of MOE bullschit as WE own the game, NOT the bureaucrats in "fantasyland" aka Victoria!

[palmer]

for me ...best thing every to happen was open elk in 8-15....I get to go hunting...if i get skunked....i still had a great time hunting....not waiting for an LEH that never came in 20 yrs...

[d6dan]

for me ...best thing every to happen was open elk in 8-15....I get to go hunting...if i get skunked....i still had a great time hunting....not waiting for an LEH that never came in 20 yrs...

And I hope you have a Good year and Good sucess on the Elk Palmer..