Honey Hole Being Logged

[rollingrock]

Well, just found out that one of my honey holes is being logged the crap out. It has produced bears and nice bucks for me. Now it's gone. :sad: I was even planning to bow hunt on that spot....

[kenkell1]

Thats sucks and the same thing happened to my spot last year.

[browningboy]

That happened to us in Tumbler a few years back, but they sure did level the area!

[tufferthandug]

We're losing a "Honey Hole" every 15 minutes in Region 5, LOL. Thankfully they leave a lot of "Riparian zones" to help funnel the game. Since the onslaught of the pine beetle in Region 5 our clearcuts have forced myself at least to adapt. Using these riparian zones to your advantage really helps.

[rollingrock]

That's been the easiest and the closest spot for me. Now I'll have to pull my butt harder and farther. Sucks.

[Fisher-Dude]

They've cleared my old honey hole in region 3 to the point where getting at the bucks has become a real challenge. They will be out in a cut, near the few "reserve trees" left, but they can see you coming 700 - 800 yards away across the open fields. Getting into shooting range last year proved to be very difficult. I was fortunate enough to find a nice meat buck in a 10 year old cut that afforded some cover. But later in the season when I was chasing whities and my buddy was looking to fill his muley tag, we saw 4 different nice 4 points that he just couldn't get close enough to. Kinda frustrating. :sad:

[browningboy]

They've cleared my old honey hole in region 3 to the point where getting at the bucks has become a real challenge. They will be out in a cut, near the few "reserve trees" left, but they can see you coming 700 - 800 yards away across the open fields. Getting into shooting range last year proved to be very difficult. I was fortunate enough to find a nice meat buck in a 10 year old cut that afforded some cover. But later in the season when I was chasing whities and my buddy was looking to fill his muley tag, we saw 4 different nice 4 points that he just couldn't get close enough to. Kinda frustrating. :sad:


Thats because your polaris is too damn loud! Scares the deer away!:razz:

[Brambles]

Happened to me a few years ago, it sucks

[johnes50]

Same thing happened to me last fall. I planned a week hunting with my son and took him up to show him my up island "secret" spot and it was gone. The only thing left on the whole hillside were the 5 or 6 trees where I shot my deer last year. Weird.

[tomahawk]

Well, just found out that one of my honey holes is being logged the crap out. It has produced bears and nice bucks for me. Now it's gone. :sad: I was even planning to bow hunt on that spot....

Unfortunately all forested area's are subject to being stripped, lost mine about 12 yrs ago altough now its good again!

[Mulies]

Hopefully they won't log the crap out of it. We had this happen to us also in a nice timbered mountain we have hunted in region 5 for the last 14 years. There was a single road going up the mountain that we still- hunted from. One year we noticed that there was a lot of flagging and some had start mainline here etc. wrote on it. We thought that it was the end of are spot. But the cut blocks were fairly small and it has had very little affect on the game in the area.
The influx of new hunters has made the area a bit of a zoo and I am in the process of trying to find a new area.

[elkdom]

That sort of nasty suprize always leaves you with a sick feeling in your gut, logging does change the hunting format,no arguement there, access to an area once logging is complete does become easier,but the next year after logging is finished and for many years after ,those areas,logging slashes do provide a new feeding zone,In northeast BC oil and gas developement destroys mineral licks by the hundreds,many times gas wells are located exactly where minerals make thier way to the surface,prior to gas well drilling!vast tracts of forest are dissapearing due to Pine beetle kill,this too destroys many former hunting ,hot spots! nothing worse than getting to your favorite hunting mecca,only to find a log dump landing or a sour gas well !

[Rock Doctor]

Happened to me a few yrs ago too, but it turned out OK. The spot is better now than it was before. The problem is that other people have now discovered the spot, and can ride ATV's into it. Always had to walk before.

[highcountry88]

I have a lost a couple of spots as well, but on the flip side, my favorite bear hunting area is getting overgrown and I wish they would log a little more to produce the sidehills that generate the grass that attracts spring bears.

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Bummer.

The only thing that is constant is change.

Happenned to me as well.

Keeps you moving and on your toes.....which "can" make us better hunters.

The animals have to adapt and so do we.

Sad but true.

SSS

[Ron.C]

It sucks,

I think everyone has lost a spot or two to logging, development, whatever. Just gives you an excuse to get out more an find a new spot!

[steepNdeep]

Yeah, bummer - I can relate. :mad: Every time that I think that I have things figured out they change... keeps you on your toes. Clear cuts, development, road deactivation, etc... You'll find another spot.

[GoatGuy]

Succession, ingrowth, clearcuts, all part of the program.

In 10 years when things grow up again, sightability goes down and the hunters leave the hunting will be fantastic again. We've found that with a couple of our wt spots. Makes the hunting even better.

[jerad]

we had this nice spot out in boston bar for bear. we went up late may found nothing but deer and a too small bear cub. we go back next weekend to find a waterfall has gouged a 25 foot deep by 15ft wide trench across the road... adapt, overcome and advance

[BlacktailStalker]

I can relate. So many great stands of timber are barren slashes that I used to hunt.
SO many more were ribboned off last fall too.
Sure makes a guy mad, spending all that time to find/learn spots just to have them taken away.

[dana]

I'm one of the guys that hangs the ribbon. I love to screw with guy's hidey holes. Earth First. Then we'll log the other planets. :)

[ruger#1]

Well my honey hole is behind a locked gate, and has been logged off in parts last year, should be good in a couple of years. i love it.

[Jelvis]

Ribbons is what really gets me. Dangling everywhere blowin in the wind scaring everything off, all ribbon hanger guys should be banned from the bush. lol Jelbanribbonhangerpeoplefromthebush

[steveo32]

I love laying out cut blocks cause i get to scout on the job choose where the "wildlife" tree patches go and all that good stuff, Besides i thought everyone on here was a road hunter so i figured having 9 km of road in one block would help you boys out. :biggrin:

If anyone wants to know where that block is head up boulder mnt above otter lake!

I am finding rubs the size of my thigh so i know the big boys hang out there you might just have to wait to get the pesky trees out of the way before you find them !

[tufferthandug]

Ribbons is what really gets me. Dangling everywhere blowin in the wind scaring everything off, all ribbon hanger guys should be banned from the bush. lol Jelbanribbonhangerpeoplefromthebush

I concur! Tufferthandugsayingnotoribbonhangers:)

[5 spike]

we have lost a few honey holes,but we keep finding more.logging feeds a lot of familys in my neck of the woods.

[mrdoog]

We should all protest by turning our lights out for an hour.

[rock]

We hunted a spot for many years and it produced some nice deer, then the ribbons showed up which only means one thing. Two yrs later it was gone as for the game the first year was a gong show for game being shot then it tapered off, the animals picked new areas as well changed there traveling patterns. It took 5yrs for the game to come back even then it wasn't like before.

[115 or bust]

we had this nice spot out in boston bar for bear. we went up late may found nothing but deer and a too small bear cub. we go back next weekend to find a waterfall has gouged a 25 foot deep by 15ft wide trench across the road... adapt, overcome and advance

Sounds perfect!!!

[dana]

Pretty soon all you boys will be happy as the Ribbon Hangers are a dying breed. Mills are closing at an alarming rate and the beetle wood is all but standing dead useless. Soon the sound of logging will be a thing of the past. Then you boys can complain about the wildfires that have not only eaten your honey holes but also your homes.:eek:

[mrdoog]

I've noticed parade routes have ribbons, perhaps you can move to Vancouver and lay out the routes there.

[Jelvis]

Fires are natural an act of mother nature, ribbons are man made and so are power saws and logging trucks. Mother nature knows best, man only wants work for money so they can feed their families. At least thats the reason they give for clear cutting all the mountains bald, wheres the animals going to go? Jelnowheretohidetheiroffspring.lol

[dana]

Jelly,
When all that beetle wood becomes a blowdown jungle mixed with a sea of Bl regen, how's that going to affect your honey hole?

[Timbow]

Pretty soon all you boys will be happy as the Ribbon Hangers are a dying breed. Mills are closing at an alarming rate and the beetle wood is all but standing dead useless. Soon the sound of logging will be a thing of the past. Then you boys can complain about the wildfires that have not only eaten your honey holes but also your homes.:eek:

Yeah it's unfortunate, and it is like they say "survival of the fittest". Quesnel has been dealing with the dead wood longer than most other places. I use to be a ribbon hanger and enjoyed it for over 10 years. Silviculture is probably where it's at for the long haul, but it doesn't interest me like the pre-harvest. But I can tell you that hanging ribbon has allowed me to hunt harder than most by being in awesome shape, as I spent almost 90% of my time in the field.

cheers

[Timbow]

Fires are natural an act of mother nature, ribbons are man made and so are power saws and logging trucks. Mother nature knows best, man only wants work for money so they can feed their families. At least thats the reason they give for clear cutting all the mountains bald, wheres the animals going to go? Jelnowheretohidetheiroffspring.lol

Maybe 100 years ago. Today it's Smokey the bear that has caused all this excess beetle kill along with a few El Nino's. We killed our future with the forests.

[LostInSpaces]

Fires are natural an act of mother nature, ribbons are man made and so are power saws and logging trucks. Mother nature knows best, man only wants work for money so they can feed their families. At least thats the reason they give for clear cutting all the mountains bald, wheres the animals going to go? Jelnowheretohidetheiroffspring.lol

Refresh my memory. Is man not naturally occuring creature? If so then would not his works also be natural as a beaver dam is natural? I have difficulty understanding how one could be fine and the other not.:roll:

Yeah it's butt ugly for a little while but the amount of increase in unstory and ground plants gives the critters lots of feed. All that hunting does for the first few years is provide a little selection ala Darwin. Makes future hunting alot more interesting.

[Jelvis]

My honey hole was burnt to the ground by a tossed cigarette behind the Mclure restaurant remember? Mother nature or man? Still burned but hey there is some deer coming back in.
Steve I don't know if it can blow down cause the needles are gone and no bushy limbs but a fire will eventually happen from lightning or something. I really don't know what is going to happen with all that beetle killed standing trees. Do the needles fall right off? I guess we'll see over time. Jeldeadwood

[mrdoog]

The area around McLure and across the river are recovering at an amazing rate.

[dana]

Maybe 100 years ago. Today it's Smokey the bear that has caused all this excess beetle kill along with a few El Nino's. We killed our future with the forests.

I fear that Smokey is going to get his ass kicked very soon. What we saw in 03 was nothing compared to what is coming down the line. Still a lot of Red and Dead out there and that will be the fuel.

[Islandeer]

Used to be a nice neighbourhood until those ribbon hangers showed up hanging ribbon here and there.

Ribbons are givin out to the winner's aren't they? :eek:

[mrdoog]

No, ribbons are given out to "participants".

[Jelvis]

Fires around Mclure happenend along time ago too and went all the way to Wells gray and some fires were started by people in that valley a hundred years ago to make green forage for the animals so fires can be good too. Trouble is winter range like at Mclure was burnt and thats not too good. Also I miss the big timber it was good when it was there made for good deer trails and good buck country but I still like the area anyways. Adabtability for animals and hunters together. Jellybean

[dana]

My honey hole was burnt to the ground by a tossed cigarette behind the Mclure restaurant remember? Mother nature or man? Still burned but hey there is some deer coming back in.
Steve I don't know if it can blow down cause the needles are gone and no bushy limbs but a fire will eventually happen from lightning or something. I really don't know what is going to happen with all that beetle killed standing trees. Do the needles fall right off? I guess we'll see over time. Jeldeadwood

Are you ready to have more interface fires like 03? They are coming to a town near you. Yes, they do provide some great habitat in the long run, but are you willing to sacrifice your house and possessions to get that?

And yes, the dead Pl is prone to windthrow. I've had the joy numerous times of crawling through recent Pl blowdown and it ain't pretty. The big bucks will still be there. The escape terrian will just be an impassable fortress and the big ol' boys will just die of old age.

[rock]

I fear that Smokey is going to get his ass kicked very soon. What we saw in 03 was nothing compared to what is coming down the line. Still a lot of Red and Dead out there and that will be the fuel.
For what I've seen for trees in the bush, tons of fuel a fire in the next while could be a whopper

[Jelvis]

I thought they were logging that beetle kill out. I don't know what it's going to do to the deer and moose cause the dead trees are not giving off oxygen and deer eat pine. I saw the red up the Jamieson area and wow it's bad. As far as the eye can see it's red.

[LostInSpaces]

Time to invest in a 1000 yard rifle. Then in about ten years you'll need to swap to a brush gun as you won't see more than a few feet...

[Jelvis]

You're right I think you got ten years but if they plant it too close together you probably have seven years to see things then it's good for rabbits only. jelthickstuff

[hunter1947]

Join the club :roll:. I have had many honey holes logged on me over the years. Two thing that I look at when this is done ,first they the animals that are in that area will still be there but pushed over a few KLM to a different location. Secondly the area that they logged will produce some good hunting in a few years with the new habitat starting to grow up. That's what I have found out in the EK when hunting elk ,new growth is just like eating candy for them.

[Walksalot]

I am loosing mine this spring. I have to pull my stand when the snow goes, it really jars my preserves.

If I were a guessing man I would guess the logging companies approached the government and told them they could control the beetle problem though logging. Neither the logging companies nor the forest service could have foreseen the destruction. Ignorance played a huge role in this mess we are in, both in the public and private sector. I remember a employee of the Habitat Protection Branch telling me how a logging company proposed to log a beetle site. He commented how the proposed block was many times larger than the infected area. The infected patch of timber, according to the government employee, consisted of the "red tops". What the employee didn't realize was by simply cutting the "red tops" the logging company was removing the symptom and not the problem. The beetle was long gone from the dead trees and into the good timber. Granted the beetle is nothing new but I would question whether this type of devastation occurred historically. The reason being it was controlled with fire before it got to big. Our advanced fire fighting techniques and the public's opinion of using fire to control the problem diffidently contributed to the mess we are in. Education would have been the way to go but in reality the public out cry would have been huge if proscribed burns were to be carried out in our provincial parks(Okanagan Mtn.)

Granted the trees are gone from the environment but the deciduous growth which will spring up due to better light penetration will help with the process of photosynthesis but deciduous growth doesn't clean the air 24/7 365.24. The leaves from the deciduous growth will bode well for the amount of humus on the the under story and promote healthier growth. This may well be a classic case of it's what you learn after you know it all that counts but what one hell of a way to learn.

[KodiakHntr]

If I were a guessing man I would guess the logging companies approached the government and told them they could control the beetle problem though logging.


You'd of guessed wrong....The gov't came to the logging companies and told them that they had to control the beetle problem through logging. A lot of pressure was put on companies to harvest bug wood throughout the Kootenays when it was first starting to get ugly.

[Fisher-Dude]

You'd of guessed wrong....The gov't came to the logging companies and told them that they had to control the beetle problem through logging. A lot of pressure was put on companies to harvest bug wood throughout the Kootenays when it was first starting to get ugly.

Interesting thing I saw 2 years ago was 3 of the 4 major logging shows on Tolko's westside TFL49 and TL51667 were logging pumpkin spruce stands all fall while the pine was dying. Seems someone had their priorities ALL wrong eh? Forest Management? Pffffffffft! :roll:

[sealevel]

Even our forestry don`t want to deal with the bug killed pine . I am a salvage logger now in the last two years it is almost impossible to get salvage . Now you can get pine but you can`t sell it. I have in the last year found and applied for 1000sand of meters of bug killed fir. Prime fir will just rot.

[Timbow]

If I were a guessing man I would guess the logging companies approached the government and told them they could control the beetle problem though logging. Neither the logging companies nor the forest service could have foreseen the destruction. Ignorance played a huge role in this mess we are in, both in the public and private sector. I remember a employee of the Habitat Protection Branch telling me how a logging company proposed to log a beetle site. He commented how the proposed block was many times larger than the infected area. The infected patch of timber, according to the government employee, consisted of the "red tops". What the employee didn't realize was by simply cutting the "red tops" the logging company was removing the symptom and not the problem. The beetle was long gone from the dead trees and into the good timber. Granted the beetle is nothing new but I would question whether this type of devastation occurred historically. The reason being it was controlled with fire before it got to big. Our advanced fire fighting techniques and the public's opinion of using fire to control the problem diffidently contributed to the mess we are in. Education would have been the way to go but in reality the public out cry would have been huge if proscribed burns were to be carried out in our provincial parks(Okanagan Mtn.).

If you were the betting kind you would have lost.

The fight with the pine beetle was most likely lost in the summer of '99. That year there were three confirmed beetle fights due to the warm and dry spring, summer and fall. I strongly believe it was the NDP's forest management strategy that restricted the opening size to 60ha in the interior. I guess the pine beetle didn't understand what 60ha represents

[StoneChaser]

If you were the betting kind you would have lost.

The fight with the pine beetle was most likely lost in the summer of '99. That year there were three confirmed beetle fights due to the warm and dry spring, summer and fall. I strongly believe it was the NDP's forest management strategy that restricted the opening size to 60ha in the interior. I guess the pine beetle didn't understand what 60ha represents

Actually, we have been stacking the odds against ourselves in the fight against the MPB since the 1960's, with the inception of effective fire supression efforts and a cautious AAC.

BC's central interior became a ticking time bomb w/respect to forest health with its large monoculture of essentially even aged pine, particularily age class 7 and 8....a direct result of virtually eliminating a historically short/moderate fire return interval.

Combine a series of VERY mild winters,vast stands of overmature pine and and number of widespread incipient MPB infestations and you have a recipe for disaster w/respect to a sustainable forest industry.

Many blame the Tweedsmuir infestation and small patch size, but the beetles exponential growth was simply unmanagable...they'll ride thermals far beyond what is a reasonable (managable) cutblock or series of cutblocks in a single summer. Aggressive burning/harvesting within Tweedsmuir would have slowed the growth, but would only have delayed the inevitable.

Unfortunately the battle against the MPB was lost before it started....

[grizzly_taker]

Time to invest in a 1000 yard rifle. Then in about ten years you'll need to swap to a brush gun as you won't see more than a few feet...
You know all about that hey lostinspaces!!! There is cuts out on the holy cross rd that seem to go on forever!!!! I happen to have a 1000 yrd gun, it'll be kicking ass the the shoot in burns lake on may 5th!

[grizzly_taker]

If you were the betting kind you would have lost.

The fight with the pine beetle was most likely lost in the summer of '99. That year there were three confirmed beetle fights due to the warm and dry spring, summer and fall. I strongly believe it was the NDP's forest management strategy that restricted the opening size to 60ha in the interior. I guess the pine beetle didn't understand what 60ha represents
It actually started before that my friend i was right there in the midst of it. We seen the pine beedle in Tweedmuir park and we could have gladly gone in there and slowed it to a crawl. The NDP however told us no to logging in the park and no to prescribed fires!!!!!! Now look what we have. What isn't red around the Fraser lake area is now grey of death!

[horshur]

Unless a scientist gets in here and argues against succession....or was the definition of climax forest?....what the pine beetle has done is what it has done before...because the forest is succeeding or climaxing...

The sentimental nature lover meets....the reality of natural systems.

You cannot hold back time and entropy...they always win eventually.

You can bet that at least once before your little piece of heaven has seen fire and disease and death, even hundreds of years of dormancy covered with ice....perhaps even logged before. It will recover in time and perhaps for a time be more productive than it was.

My boy shot the buck of a lifetime in the McClure burn where there was once nothing but destruction.

[rollingrock]

Unless a scientist gets in here and argues against succession....or was the definition of climax forest?....what the pine beetle has done is what it has done before...because the forest is succeeding or climaxing...

The sentimental nature lover meets....the reality of natural systems.

You cannot hold back time and entropy...they always win eventually.

You can bet that at least once before your little piece of heaven has seen fire and disease and death, even hundreds of years of dormancy covered with ice....perhaps even logged before. It will recover in time and perhaps for a time be more productive than it was.

My boy shot the buck of a lifetime in the McClure burn where there was once nothing but destruction.

I'd agree with you on this. But still it hurts when you see your spot being torn down all of a sudden, and you have spent years studying the spot and think that you've figured out the moving pattern of deer, where they feed, what trail they take every day, when the water level will come up so that the bears will come in fishing, where the bald eagles stay...etc. Now they're all gone. I used to be able to hear the bald eagles' wings from behind when I walk on my spot and turn around to see them flying right over my head as if I could grab their tails. Now they're all gone.

[GoatGuy]

I think the pine beetles are great. We've got major ingrowth problems across damn near the entire province and we haven't been allowed to let them burn for the past 50 years.

Once things are settled we're going to have so many animals it isn't even funny. GOS any animal, any time.......:eek:

[horshur]

I think the pine beetles are great. We've got major ingrowth problems across damn near the entire province and we haven't been allowed to let them burn for the past 50 years.

Once things are settled we're going to have so many animals it isn't even funny. GOS any animal, any time.......:eek:

I concur! some big ones too.

[horshur]

I'd agree with you on this. But still it hurts when you see your spot being torn down all of a sudden, and you have spent years studying the spot and think that you've figured out the moving pattern of deer, where they feed, what trail they take every day, when the water level will come up so that the bears will come in fishing, where the bald eagles stay...etc. Now they're all gone. I used to be able to hear the bald eagles' wings from behind when I walk on my spot and turn around to see them flying right over my head as if I could grab their tails. Now they're all gone.

Logging slashes and roads are ugly....but still and improvement over east hastings street.

[Jelvis]

How far do you walk when you hunt? How much area do you actually cover? How far up do you climb from your vehicle? How many hours do you walk in the bush in a late fall day? Or do you like to drive the roads too and walk? Not much time in the late fall for light. How many hectares did they cut? Jelhectares?

[rollingrock]

How far do you walk when you hunt? How much area do you actually cover? How far up do you climb from your vehicle? How many hours do you walk in the bush in a late fall day? Or do you like to drive the roads too and walk? Not much time in the late fall for light. How many hectares did they cut? Jelhectares?

The distance I cover really depends on the spot. But I do prefer walking, and I like walking alone. I do climb up some steep terrain through thick stuff. But for late fall I dont go very far cuz it's unnecessary, but late fall blacktail bucks usually don't stay too high. If I find spots with resident does, like the one that's being logged, the bucks will show up during rutting season.

I would climb as high up as this to learn how deer move during different seasons:

http://www.huntingbc.ca/photos/data/500/IMG_1400.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/rockrolling/Sep-17-2007%20Kingdom%20Lake/S6300347.jpg



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/rockrolling/Sep-17-2007%20Kingdom%20Lake/S6300353.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/rockrolling/Sep-17-2007%20Kingdom%20Lake/IMG_1408.jpg

[BCrams]

Logging etc doesn't bother me as far as hunting goes. If anything, hunting just gets easier.

[Jelvis]

Wondeful country and good pictures rollingrock is that the coast of B.C.? Jelgorgeousviewinthosepix

[rollingrock]

Wondeful country and good pictures rollingrock is that the coast of B.C.? Jelgorgeousviewinthosepix

No it's near Gold Bridge. I used these pix to show you that I am willing to hike up under certain circumstances. I have climbed something rougher than this in R2 just to find that there're resident deer at different altitude in different season all year around. I do road hunt sometimes, like the bears. :smile:

[Jelvis]

Sounds like you enjoy the bush a lot. I find early season to be the hardest to hunt walking cause it's so dry thick and noisy. Snow makes it nice when it's fresh. The edges of the logged areas are where you can find trails usually at the spots farthest from the road access, and thats where you can start to explore. Jeledgesinthebackparts

[moosinaround]

Well my even aged, homogenous, over mature, pine areas I used to hunt were ravenged by the beetle. Honey holes are now cutblocks. I have still managed to pull out the moose and deer. Some areas I used to hunt in 94-95, are almost unrecognizable, yet the animals are still there. In actual fact there are some new species like elk, sharptail grouse. You can really get a good idea of the power of nature when you look at the province of BC now as compared to 10 years ago. It is a cycle, and we have expidited it with global warming! Animals will change, adapt, and so will humans. I hunt differently than I used to. I use a combination of roads, trails, water ways. I was a ribbon hanger, a tree counter and a tree establisher, and a tree killer. I owe a lot of what I have to trees. Mother nature will give trees back. It is how she heals the earth. It is a cycle, small in geological time frames, but long in human time frames! My two bits! Moosin

[huntwriter]

Logging a honey hole sure sucks but on the bright side, in two to three years it will be a honey hole again full of new and tender growth.

[Jelvis]

Trouble is there is no cover high enough for the animals to hide in therefor they can be very vulnerable the first year after the logging or fire then up to four years to get the vegetation up to four feet high. They can be taken out in the open quite easy in the morning and just before dark.

[hunter1947]

Last year they were logging one of my favorite elk spots ,this is the fourth time they the logging companies have logged out an area where I have had good success in hunting elk. The only good thing that I like about it is that in a few years it will have some good habitat for the elk to eat. thats when I will keep my eyes on that slash and others.

[Jelvis]

The reason moose moved down from northern B.C they tell me is because of logging it provided new growth in the logged areas and the moose moved in. The surface of the soil was then hit by the sun and caused new green veggies and willow shoots. Cattle move in too the ranchers up here in Kamloops don't want any of the fire areas replanted with trees they want it for range land so the grass can keep growing. It's all relative to logging clear cuts and fires. The helicopters flew over the fire areas and dropped grass and natural plant seeds on the burnt areas and now there is grass and shrubs all over the area making excellent winter range for the mule deer. JelKamloopsareafires

[Moosenose]

Welcome to BC!
It's all part of a big cycle, we need the wood, and we need the jobs.
I am about to lose a honey hole with a new road going in to an area where nobody else is willing to hike. We just have to make the best of it, and adapt just like the critters.
All and all, this is still one of the best places on earth to live. (and hunt)

[Jelvis]

I remember the first year the loggers built a road right up and into the best deer area I hunted. I was mind boggled. Why? I tried to find out. Well the reason? They found some root rot, Oh. Then they were supposed to kind of take only so many trees cause it was deemed mule deer habitat winter range. Well after they took just about everything there. I talked to some others they said the logging company was going to be fined cause they took way too many trees and were not supposed to. Long story shortened the road was there in hunting season and not gated. Twenty-five big bucks were taken off that area the first season and that was the ones the locals knew about so how many were taken is not known. Does were hanging around the breeding bucks and gave the bucks away. Now they totally deactivated the road and very few hunt up there now so I hike up and see the deer and there are lots again. I know that feeling when you see the area with no cover after hunting there for year after year, terrible feeling but like said live and let live cause theres nothing a person can do. Bucks and does just off the main road and it's steep at first and hardly anyone goes there, a deer basin with biggins. Have heart cause after a few years if they totally deactivate you will see the herds again. JellyRoll

[Beaverhunter]

I had that happen and i was so mad but as it turned out it actually made the area better after they were done.

[Jelvis]

It's a nightmare seeing your spot devastated by over zealous Freddy Kruegars out there with chainsaws. Chain Saw Massacre! Then you notice you can't see the forest but now you see the topography and it looks like Colorado or or Utah and it's in Reg 3 in B.C. Rocky rims surrounding the bowl sheer rock and slopes with rich topsoil with ungulate feed a foot and a half high citizen. MULE DEER SUPER BOWL! Got odd six will travel. JelladinPellidan

[rollingrock]

No matter how logging will benefit hunting, it does though take some years to know the spot and the animals. An ongoing logging operation just ruins the spot for this time being. We city warriors dont have as much time as you cowboys do, so losing a honey hole to logging is obviously devastating.

[dana]

You boys sound like you should join Greenpeace.

[Dirty]

You boys sound like you should join Greenpeace.

Do you have their contact information by any chance?:lol:

[Jelvis]

Ya that is true and very good point about city and country. Up here in Kamloops for instance, it is pure super country living at it's best year round. Drive out twenty K and your in the wild where the bucks are big. City folk don't get to see this in the concrete jungle. So what's your point I guess it's when you drive way up and get a surprise it's kinda late for that area for that certain season. Jelsurpriseareadifferentallofasuddenoopsnextyearig uess?

[hunter1947]

What I hate about a logged out area is that it is hard to move through it ,there are so many scraps left laying around ,some times areas they logged are better cleaned up then others ,I have always wondered WHY ????

[sealevel]

You boys sound like you should join Greenpeace.

maybe if more of us were greenpeaceers we might have some trees left. It kinda makes me ill to drive around the logging roads and see all the trees we don`t have anymore. I for one do not think logging has helped hunting at all.

[horshur]

[quote=sealevel;270772]maybe if more of us were greenpeaceers we might have some trees left. It kinda makes me ill to drive around the logging roads and see all the trees we don`t have anymore. I for one do not think logging has helped hunting at all.[/quote

there is only ugliness in death if you remain short sighted.....a spawned out dying chinook salmon is a beautiful thing because of what will come....the Adams sockeye run is symbolic of death bringing life.
Grandfather holding his granddaughter is the same....we recoil at mortality because we are short sighted.

Fighting to save somthing that is going to die anyway....that's not rational.
Particularly the Pine...it was doomed.
With death comes life........

[BCJunior]

Well, just found out that one of my honey holes is being logged the crap out. It has produced bears and nice bucks for me. Now it's gone. :sad: I was even planning to bow hunt on that spot....

Damn man, thats really too bad. I hate when that happens. It's a shame because you were planning to go on a bow hunt there eh?

[Jelvis]

hunter1947 ---> you were saying sometimes you have a hard time getting around cause of the debris left behind by loggers after they strip log. Sometimes when I see logs left that still look good I wonder why? sometimes piles of logs left to burn up later. But thats logging hey when you see stumps turned upside down it's root rot and there trying to dry them out or something like that. the deer can hide in them so that is a positive when you hunt you can look down in the stumps laying everywhere. jelstumped

[sealevel]

[quote=sealevel;270772]maybe if more of us were greenpeaceers we might have some trees left. It kinda makes me ill to drive around the logging roads and see all the trees we don`t have anymore. I for one do not think logging has helped hunting at all.[/quote

there is only ugliness in death if you remain short sighted.....a spawned out dying chinook salmon is a beautiful thing because of what will come....the Adams sockeye run is symbolic of death bringing life.
Grandfather holding his granddaughter is the same....we recoil at mortality because we are short sighted.

Fighting to save somthing that is going to die anyway....that's not rational.
Particularly the Pine...it was doomed.
With death comes life........ compairing a salmon to a forest is pretty short sighted . A salmons life is 4 years it will take 100s of years for a forest to renew itself . I have made stumps since 1972 i have seen first hand the devestation of our forests. All we have to look forward to is second growth witch a lot of is good for nothing.I see nothing beautiful about miles and miles of logging and not an old growth in sight.

[bogie]

Geez condonences man. Tough enough to find a place that produces in the first place and then have some doofus go and log it for you. Sucks. Good luck finding a new producer.

[Jelvis]

It looks like the forest work is shutting down in the towns around Kamloops lumber mills are closing. I guess the need for lumber is decreasing in the States a big market for our timber, plus beetle kill devastated the interior mills too. It's very unfortunate for the loggers but I guess like lots of things we think will never slow down are. Fires will happen in the dry beetle kill timber and when it does it will be big if it's windy. Like said the canopy is going and the forest floor will get more sun to grow green up for the animals on many mountains and that is good for the outdoors people too. JelmillsclosinginKamloops

[hunter1947]

Getting good material for my new shop is hard ,every 10th board is an unusable piece to use ,its junk ,wear does all the good lumber go. I think I know ,over seas.:roll:.

[KodiakHntr]

Very little lumber goes overseas....Not much market there yet.

Most of BC's lumber goes to the States.

[horshur]

[quote=horshur;270816] compairing a salmon to a forest is pretty short sighted . A salmons life is 4 years it will take 100s of years for a forest to renew itself . .

you proved my point by calling me short sighted...what is for one must be for all just a matter of perspective....the old growth won't be forever and hasn't been either. And all the large Ponderosa's in kamloops are dying or dead..many of them hundreds of years old. You are grasping at the wind to suppose you can stop the inevitable way of life. When I see old growth I do not just see the beauty...but also decay, disease, dormancy,and decline...there is ugliness there amongst the beauty.

[hunter1947]

Very little lumber goes overseas....Not much market there yet.

Most of BC's lumber goes to the States.
What I have been told is that we export tons of logs to Japan ???.

[bckev]

I don't mind if my honey hole is logged because I know it is only a matter of time until it becomes a honey hole again. My last honey hole became a subdivision, it will never be a honey hole again. Where I hunt mostly there has been very little logging lately and I would actually love to see them come in and create some more open spaces because it is getting to thick again. Lots of honey holes are going to be burnt up in the next few years, but a few years after that the hunting is going to be incredible.

[Jelvis]

It's an access situation not so much the logging but the new access for motor vehicles and no deactivation I mean some like new access roads and some don't six of one half dozen of the same. If you like hunting new roads or like hunting in the bush off the roads walking it's your choice and mine. So deal with it whatever way you want. It's your choice! Jelvislikesbothideas

[2slow]

Getting good material for my new shop is hard ,every 10th board is an unusable piece to use ,its junk ,wear does all the good lumber go. I think I know ,over seas.:roll:.
My brother works in a cedar mill and the bulk of all the clear product they are producing is being shipped to the asian markets.....the grade below that was being sent to the states and the remainder was being sold to the canadian markets

[Jelvis]

Would you rather hunt in and around on logged off ridges and rock bluffs with hectares of willow three feet high and some berry bushes and grass with buck brush here and there or would you choose real thick bush that you can't hardly see twenty feet in front of you? Jelwhere?

[dana]

Soooo, what would you have us do? Should every licensee send a letter to every hunter in the province asking them, "Is This Your Hidey Hole?". If a hunter responds 'Yes' then the area should be set aside as a Hidey Hole Designation thus giving it Park Status?
All I can say is some of you have been in the city wayyyy tooo long. The world outside the city is not allowed to rotate as it might somehow mess up the city hunter's plans?

[frenchbar]

Soooo, what would you have us do? Should every licensee send a letter to every hunter in the province asking them, "Is This Your Hidey Hole?". If a hunter responds 'Yes' then the area should be set aside as a Hidey Hole Designation thus giving it Park Status?
All I can say is some of you have been in the city wayyyy tooo long. The world outside the city is not allowed to rotate as it might somehow mess up the city hunter's plans?Maybe we have to start a new thread for the dissapointed hunters.. How to find a new Honey hole..:razz:

[dana]

I have found new cuts to be particularly active within the first year. And if you can hunt a cut in progress, especially when there is a good mix of fir, the deer flock to it.

Those that think logging is bad for hunting have got their heads up their asses and need to get out more. If you didn't do your research and planning before your hunt, whose fault is that? The world does not stand idle in the interior.

[dana]

Interesting thing I saw 2 years ago was 3 of the 4 major logging shows on Tolko's westside TFL49 and TL51667 were logging pumpkin spruce stands all fall while the pine was dying. Seems someone had their priorities ALL wrong eh? Forest Management? Pffffffffft! :roll:

Did you ever think that maybe that spruce was hit by Spruce Beetle? Hmmm, yup, spruce does have forest health issues as well. On top of that, Mountain Pine Beetle has now decided it loves to eat spruce as well.
Even if that spruce was healthy, what's wrong with that? There is a little thing called 'Economics' that really plays into how and where we log. With the market saturated with pine, that means pine is selling for shit. Supply and demand. Hard to log pine when you loose money just getting it to the landing, let alone truckin it to the mill. With all the Red and Dead that is checked beyond belief, you can barely sell it for pulp. Many licensee's are now targeting other species. In fact, so is the Forest Service. :)

[MattB]

I believe licensees could be allotted a certain amount of non-pine timber volume within their AAC. That may be what you saw being logged, FD.

[Jelvis]

It's not the logging ( read my lips) it's the new access that opens the area for traffic and that's what bothers. New roads that were not there before amigo. People loved to hike into the area b4 on two legs. You know roads that vehicles drive on? Jellybeanit'snotthathardtounderstandisit?

[dana]

Jellyroll,
What is the first thing people on this site complain about when it comes to access???? Deactivation. They constantly piss and moan about the one thing that reduces access to these so-called hidey holes. Oh my gawd, the cross-ditches are evil. I could rip the bumper off my Superduty.
If it wasn't for logging roads, they would never have found their hidey hole in the first place. Logging has been going on in this province for a very very long time. Heck, even some of the most familiar roads in Vancouver were skid roads at one time right? Largest Clearcut in this Province is the Greater Vancouver area through the entire lower Fraser. You city people should be pissed at that. What do you have now, Concrete Jungle???

[horshur]

Jell the first year is bad....but they adapt.

logging road central...transmission line and trans mountain pipeline right in the middle of all that this guy wintered.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y264/akdana/IMG_0771.jpg

[Jelvis]

I'm not talking about partial deactivation with cross drain ditches. I'm talking what their supposed to do complete deactivation back to slope and natural, no road left. filled, angled, sloped and wood layed across period, back the way it was before vehicle access. But there not going to spend their profit on doing that. Reason they wait replanting and fire access hey I know they are going to be there so I don't expect any thing to change anytime soon I grew up in B.C. and seen and drove logging roads all my life. My dad was a logger and my uncles and I logged too up Harrison lake, Eagle Creek half moon bay. It pretty well has to be a special wildlife zone to make them stick to contracts as far as I can tell. I can still hike so that is good so when I can't hike anymore cause of old age etc. hey wheres the roads dude? JelusedtologinBC2

[Jelvis]

horshur that is an absolute monster shed and don't tell me you found that near or on the new fiber optic line that screwed some great honey holes back in the day and area of that oil line and on and on. We can never stop all the changes bro and I don't want to I just want to find that buck that dropped that shed. JelyouhadtoshowmethatmonstershedandnowIwon'tbeable tosleeptonighthorshur

[sealevel]

Those that think logging is bad for hunting have got their heads up their asses and need to get out more. If you didn't do your research and planning before your hunt, whose fault is that? The world does not stand idle in the interior.[/quote] I don`t have my head up my ass and i have seen a lot of this prov. before it was logged . I saw first hand the moose that were up along williston lake before there was a cut block. Logging sure hasn`t helped them .You say logging has made hunting better only because you never saw it before it was logged.

[hunter1947]

Jellyroll,
What is the first thing people on this site complain about when it comes to access???? Deactivation. They constantly piss and moan about the one thing that reduces access to these so-called hidey holes. Oh my gawd, the cross-ditches are evil. I could rip the bumper off my Superduty.
If it wasn't for logging roads, they would never have found their hidey hole in the first place. Logging has been going on in this province for a very very long time. Heck, even some of the most familiar roads in Vancouver were skid roads at one time right? Largest Clearcut in this Province is the Greater Vancouver area through the entire lower Fraser. You city people should be pissed at that. What do you have now, Concrete Jungle???
When an area gets logged off ,I don't bitch and complain I just move on to a new area ,lots to pick from ,like I said befor I will wait till a few years and then the animals come into the new two year old slash and feed on the new habitat ,thats where I have got 70% of my elk 4 to 10 year old slashes. the only thing I don't like about logging is that some companies clean up the slashes and some leave it a disaster.

[KodiakHntr]

I don`t have my head up my ass and i have seen a lot of this prov. before it was logged . I saw first hand the moose that were up along williston lake before there was a cut block. Logging sure hasn`t helped them .You say logging has made hunting better only because you never saw it before it was logged.

Think you might be a little off there in your time frame....Moose history up here is pretty well documented, and there sure as hell weren't many moose before the logging started.

Mind you, I suppose I should ask which side, or area you saw these moose in before I get to jumping to conclusions.

[dana]

[/quote] You say logging has made hunting better only because you never saw it before it was logged.[/quote]

Actually it is my job to cover the ground pretty damn intensely preharvest. So I get to see the before and after. I have killed a fair amount of critters out of cuts I've layed out.

[sealevel]

I know what your job dana !! I`am not talking of new cut blocks or even a new road on a new mountain. I am talking of whole water sheds . Take the upper adams river clear back to tum tum i work and hunted there in 72 . Pretty darn good moose hunting along the river . after it was logged it really wasn`t very good . I havn`t been up there since we helly logged in 96. But it could be like the salmon arm area . Now that the regene is 25 years old we are getting a big moose pop. I was up williston and worked on the first cut block up that lake . I your dreams is the only place you will ever see moose like there was before logging. Logging is the only thing i have done and still do and i love it . But i hate the amount we have logged and now we have nothing left.

[Fisher-Dude]

Did you ever think that maybe that spruce was hit by Spruce Beetle? Hmmm, yup, spruce does have forest health issues as well. On top of that, Mountain Pine Beetle has now decided it loves to eat spruce as well.
Even if that spruce was healthy, what's wrong with that? There is a little thing called 'Economics' that really plays into how and where we log. With the market saturated with pine, that means pine is selling for shit. Supply and demand. Hard to log pine when you loose money just getting it to the landing, let alone truckin it to the mill. With all the Red and Dead that is checked beyond belief, you can barely sell it for pulp. Many licensee's are now targeting other species. In fact, so is the Forest Service. :)

Nope, there was no spruce or pine beetle in it, as the MPB had lots of green pine left at that time. They creamed the crap out of the spruce, then they PERMANENTLY laid off 85% of the workforce at the plywood plant. They screwed over the millworkers by exercising the "not a complete shutdown" loophole in their contract to avoid paying severance. I'm NOT a union guy, as my past posts will indicate, but I believe kicking a 25 year employee to the curb with zero consideration is less than honourable.

Two years ago the market was in better shape than it is now. The pine glut hadn't yet kicked in, and a lot of the stands here were still in green attack. Yet they chose to pound the spruce, which environmentally causes more damage than pine logging (pine is in drier areas, and regens way faster than the spruce stands).

You quote economics of logging the pine, yet in my experience (many years as the Woodlands Controller for a major) the pine is cheaper to log than the spruce because of the preferred growing sites and environmental considerations of logging flatter, drier ground for pine. Also, doing what we could to slow the spread of the beetle a few years ago would have paid dividends now, as any decrease in the destruction would have helped our current problem. Today's checked up dead and red was still in good shape a couple of years ago, now it's close to worthless. We should have used what we could of it when it was still merchantable, IMO.

Tolko's actions were high-grading the spruce stands, nothing more, nothing less.

[Gus]

There CAN be stipulations within a companies AAC that requires them to harvest a volume of spruce, or some other species for that matter regardless. Also, if it falls under a TFL, the company is required to take a certian volume from it over a certian period of time. I know that in TFL 30 there is virtually no pine stands to speak of, so canfor avoided the area on concentrated on areas of MPB infestations. However, I if NO logging occurs over a given time frame, they can lose the TFL and so therefore, a volume of spruce would be coming out of the TFL at some point. I dont know if any of this is the case for situation you are talking about, just a couple examples of possible reasons.

[rollingrock]

Japan usually takes better grades of high end wood. Korean market is kinda mixed. But Chinese market is only interested in cheap woods, in addition to its fumigation rules, that's why Canadian logging companies aren't interested in Chinese market. If I wanted to I could've been in this logging industry and ended up in Alaska logging and hunting. :D

[Jelvis]

Years back the B.C Forestry workers took a big blow in the Cedar Industry if your little minds can remember LOL. Why you say? California a big user of BC cedar outlawed cedar shakes and shingles because of the Huge Paranoia over sparks from surrounding Messas and hills that were a blazing in the high temperature Santa Anita winds caused by giant air off the coast of the Mighty Pacific causing the already active Thermols in the hills to uplift faster than a bundle of hot helium balloons. Get the picture? Jelcedarshakesbannedbycali4niascrewedtheBCconnecti onandthatmentmoneyb

[KodiakHntr]

And that has to do with what?

And that particular blow was pretty short lived.

[KodiakHntr]

It had no where near the impact that the current downfall is having, nor the long term ripple effect.

[Jelvis]

It's called " Supply and DEMAND " Gringo, more demand for cedar product from BC more logging it's quite simple the threads called Honey Hole Being Logged, key word for your question, " and that has to do with what?" would be Logging. lolgrinwinkjelmiester P.S. it lastedlongenough4manymuleystho2right?

[sealevel]

You can make yourself think that the way we logged this prov was justified . But the bottom line is we raped and pilaged tell there is nothing left . at the rate we were logging the mountain beatle made a difference of less then five years. Poor forest practice and greed caused the mountain pine beetle . whats done is done and crying about it does no good . And those of you that have never seen a whole valley of 400 year old fir and ceder. You will never see it again and that is a shame . Unless you walk up the stien valley.

[Gus]

Poor forest practice and greed caused the mountain pine beetle.

Could you explain that for me please :???:

[horshur]

You can make yourself think that the way we logged this prov was justified . But the bottom line is we raped and pilaged tell there is nothing left . at the rate we were logging the mountain beatle made a difference of less then five years. Poor forest practice and greed caused the mountain pine beetle . whats done is done and crying about it does no good . And those of you that have never seen a whole valley of 400 year old fir and ceder. You will never see it again and that is a shame . Unless you walk up the stien valley.

You know all I have to do is step outside my house and look upon the hills and ridges and what do I see???? Trees lot's of them...where is this nothing left?? And even in the large logging slashes...my kid's see little baby trees...as many or even more than were before....unless the deer killed the planted saplings.

[Jelvis]

I think people mean the big trees that are gone the oldest biggest ones they showed in history pictures of loggers in BC and see them standing inside the cut, it is amazing the size of those old growth cedars and fir were absolutely creating glory days in the cranium. Jelwowedbysizeofthoseoldgrowthtrees

[hunter1947]

You say logging has made hunting better only because you never saw it before it was logged.[/quote]

Actually it is my job to cover the ground pretty damn intensely preharvest. So I get to see the before and after. I have killed a fair amount of critters out of cuts I've layed out.[/quote] If you are quoting my last statement Dana ,yes I have hunted the timber in the areas befor they the logging companies logged it and have taken animals in that timber then I hunted the same area a few years latter in the same spot and taken animals. :wink:.

[KodiakHntr]

It's called " Supply and DEMAND " Gringo, more demand for cedar product from BC more logging it's quite simple the threads called Honey Hole Being Logged, key word for your question, " and that has to do with what?" would be Logging. lolgrinwinkjelmiester P.S. it lastedlongenough4manymuleystho2right?

Well, no.

I guess you don't really understand how modern forest practises work.
Up until THIS YEAR all forest companies (or at least the vast majority) cut their entire annual allowable cut. Yes, there are some variations year to year, but in every 5 year span they cut all that they were allowed.

Cedar has always been a higher valued wood, and has always been cut.

Companies don't have the ability to just decide on their own how much wood they can log...Supply isn't there, and the demand goes up, the PRICE goes up. Supply is there, and the demand goes down, the price goes DOWN.

Which is the entire basis of the crisis we are in right now. Too much SUPPLY, not enough DEMAND.

[Walksalot]

The logging practices in British Columbia have been viewed by the rest of the world as a blue print of how not to manage your forests.

[sealevel]

Could you explain that for me please :???:

When we battled the spruce beetle epedemic in the 70s we never left even a spruce top or broken chunk in the bush it was all skidded and burnt. Poor logging practice not burning cut blocks . Leaving wood laying on the ground a perfect breeding ground for bugs. Greed yes !! did forestry and companies attack the pine beetle when it was green attack no .

[sealevel]

You know all I have to do is step outside my house and look upon the hills and ridges and what do I see???? Trees lot's of them...where is this nothing left?? And even in the large logging slashes...my kid's see little baby trees...as many or even more than were before....unless the deer killed the planted saplings.

ya right and you will see dead pine regene . And even if your kids see all this new growth.. when there dying of old age it will still be new growth and good for nothing yet. You try in years to come buy a decent piece of lumber . That what i am saying there will always be some lumber industry but it will be a two man operation hauling a couple logs to a small mill . and that will not be very far off.

[KodiakHntr]

In the south, the industry is slowing down...In the north, not so much.

Second growth stands are being logged on the coast even as we speak....

[Gus]

Leaving wood laying on the ground a perfect breeding ground for bugs. Greed yes !! did forestry and companies attack the pine beetle when it was green attack no .

I fail to see how leaving wood laying on the ground is an act of greed rather than a biodiversity implication set on by objectives layed out in FRPA from environmental acts.

And no, forest companies did not act on the green attack in the intial outbreak becuase, even though there was predictions about what would happen if they didn't and companies were all for actioning it, environmental groups were opposed to allowing for the altering of legislation for timber harvest to occur within tweedsmuir park.

[MattB]

Greed, definetely not! Why did the mountain pine beetle spread like it did? It was because of large continuous mature lodgepole pine stands and lack of cool winter temps! If anything they should have been GREEDY and taken more trees while they had value!

[Squirrelnuts]

did forestry and companies attack the pine beetle when it was green attack no .

Actually yes. It's pretty much all I did in the early years of the infestation. Hell, at the start of it we were heli logging 1/4 hectare patches. I remember a lot of baiting and fall and burn, as well.

The scale of this can't be blamed on anything but mother nature. Maybe some things could have been done to slow the spread (Tweedsmuir's always the first argument that comes up) but I think this was going to happen regardless of any effort to stop it.

[MattB]

Yea, there was lots of fall and burn and beetle probing back in the 90s and early 2000's when beetle populations were small and patchy.

[sealevel]

so did the quesnel forest district address the bugs ?? There is no salvage program in that district . of all the mills there you can`t sell a log in quesnel. Weldwood just handed there bug wood to BCTS and continued logging spruce out by wells at least tell 04. Westfraeser in WL was still big logging big fir blocks all in the name of getting some pine in the back corner at least tell 04 . Gormans would not touch a tree with bugs in it . Fedco never touched a buggy pine ever . And no leaveing wood on the ground is not greedy !! its poor forest practice.

[sealevel]

By 1970 ..10% of bc had been logged so that leaves 45,000 sq miles of old growth timber and no beetles !! so by 1990 after we have quit slash burning and logged 75% of the Old growth in the prov. we have a budding beetle problem all because we left 25% of the old growth BULL !!

[MattB]

By 1970 ..10% of bc had been logged so that leaves 45,000 sq miles of old growth timber and no beetles !! so by 1990 after we have quit slash burning and logged 75% of the Old growth in the prov. we have a budding beetle problem all because we left 25% of the old growth BULL !!
Theres always been beetles, just like theres always been disease. Theyre both party of a healthy forest. Have you even read any of the mountain pine beetle reports?

[MattB]

Where are you getting all your info from anyways? Any sources? None of it seems to make sense.

[Timbow]

so did the quesnel forest district address the bugs ?? There is no salvage program in that district . of all the mills there you can`t sell a log in quesnel. Weldwood just handed there bug wood to BCTS and continued logging spruce out by wells at least tell 04. Westfraeser in WL was still big logging big fir blocks all in the name of getting some pine in the back corner at least tell 04 . Gormans would not touch a tree with bugs in it . Fedco never touched a buggy pine ever . And no leaveing wood on the ground is not greedy !! its poor forest practice.

You have some misleading facts there guy. I layed out a lot of wood for Weldwood in Quesnel. In fact, in one year I layed out close to 240 000 m3. All bug wood. Weldwood went aggressive against the pine beetle starting in 1999. I would like to know where you got this BS from.

Cheers.

[dana]

I know what your job dana !! I`am not talking of new cut blocks or even a new road on a new mountain. I am talking of whole water sheds . Take the upper adams river clear back to tum tum i work and hunted there in 72 . Pretty darn good moose hunting along the river . after it was logged it really wasn`t very good . I havn`t been up there since we helly logged in 96. But it could be like the salmon arm area . Now that the regene is 25 years old we are getting a big moose pop. I was up williston and worked on the first cut block up that lake . I your dreams is the only place you will ever see moose like there was before logging. Logging is the only thing i have done and still do and i love it . But i hate the amount we have logged and now we have nothing left.

Funny that you should mention the Adams as I have done a ton of work there. You talk about Old Growth but isn't it funny how all the big fir out there is the same age. It all is 80-85 years old. And it is pretty damn big for being so damn young. Great growing site. Funny how a big fire approx 85 years ago burned the entire valley eh? Shame on those fires. They destroy all the Old Growth. LOL! Now I have worked in plenty of Old Growth Cw/Hw up the Finn Tum, Oliver and Sunset. The fire just happened to have missed that stuff. The Old Growth stands don't hold much for game though as there isn't much for them to eat. The moose do hang out in the fringes of the Old Growth only because of the alder that grows in the Avalanche chutes. As for the blocks that were logged during the 70's when you were in there, they are now well established forests.

There is still plenty of Old Growth within this province. When you consider the amount of timber tied up in OGMA's, Caribou Corridors, RMA's, and Parks, you don't have to worry that it will dispear due to logging. Now, you may have to worry about Hemlock Looper, Spruce Beetle, Balsam Beetle, Douglas Fir Beetle, Root Rot, and large scale fires destroying it, but you won't have to worry about the chainsaws.:lol:

[sealevel]

Just while i was out west of quesnel logging a small BCTS bug kill block that weldwood had turn over to them . My cousin who had 3 prosesers for them was working out east of wells and did so for another 2 years. that was in 2002 .

[Timbow]

Just while i was out west of quesnel logging a small BCTS bug kill block that weldwood had turn over to them . My cousin who had 3 prosesers for them was working out east of wells and did so for another 2 years. that was in 2002 .

Weldwood had three major contractors cutting for them. Small, isolated blocks were usually given to the smaller contractors. Back in the late 90's Weldwood went to cut-to-length and basically eliminating the need for processors. All wood was sorted and sold or hauled to their plywood or sawmill.

As for salvage logging, it usually dealt with windblown spruce and fir. Pine has little value once on the ground. Weldwood had the salvage rights for the area east of the Fraser river and another small sawmill (privately owned) had the rights to salvage the wood on the west side of the Fraser.

[dana]

Sealevel,
You do realize that every so many years the Majors have to hand back a percentage of wood to BCTS? Many times this includes blocks they have fully developed. And you do realize that most Majors have numerous logging contractors working for them at any given time? Just because your cousin was logging East of Wells don't mean the Licensee wasn't logging pl in numerous other spots in their operating area as well.

[Squirrelnuts]

Weldwood just handed there bug wood to BCTS and continued logging spruce out by wells at least tell 04.

Weldwood got out of the Garner Road area, and I believe BCTS took the management of that area over. At the time, Weldwood's TFL was getting hammered by beetle as well. It made sense to look after their TFL and leave the Garner area (which had wood that didn't really fit Weldwood's profile) to BCTS, where it could be sold to mills that were geared to run small (PFT sized) pine. Irrespective of the wood, I don't think Weldwood would have had the capacity to look after both areas, anyway.

As far as logging spruce: remember that Weldwood had a plywood plant to keep operating as well, and I'm just about positive that it wasn't set up to peel 8", checked pine.

[sealevel]

Dana where is all this old growth ?? And what good do`s a ogma do anyone There`s two close to me dying of fir bark beetle i have tried to salvage them but i can`t get them out of the ogma cause there is no other patch of fir left. So it will die fall over and rot. And dana i am not worried about chain saws but i am about bugs beetle and lupper all of witch man is responsable for . Anyway i am off to the BCWF fundraiser.

[dana]

So what, did scientist's create beetle and looper in a lab and turned them loose in a diabolical plot to take over the world?

[MattB]

Dana where is all this old growth ?? And what good do`s a ogma do anyone There`s two close to me dying of fir bark beetle i have tried to salvage them but i can`t get them out of the ogma cause there is no other patch of fir left. So it will die fall over and rot. And dana i am not worried about chain saws but i am about bugs beetle and lupper all of witch man is responsable for . Anyway i am off to the BCWF fundraiser.
There is old growth all over the province. Drive any road and you will see old growth forests. Do you know what an old growth forest in BC is? Do you know what old growth forests consist of? CWD...course woody debris, ever heard of it? Dead and drying wood is important to forests too you know ;). OGMA's provide habitat for many species, animals and plants. Man definetely isnt responsible for insects. If anything you can lay some blame on man for the MPB. But only because of FIRE SUPPRESSION and potentially the changing climate, but do we REALLY know that is happening?.

[MattB]

If you are worried about your livelihood for the future then that is understandable. The good thing about forests is they are RENEWABLE. Whats gone today will grow back tomorrow. Give things time and learn about silviculture, if you do that you will be busy for many years to come! 8-)

[dana]

Interesting that he is concerned about the lack of Old Growth and yet he complains that he can't salvage OGMA's (Old Growth Management Areas).

[Jelvis]

Theres a new bug now in the B.C. forests, from back east and the forestry guy was telling me it's some type of a bee and it kills fir trees, so I hope that is taken care of in a quick tough short battle b4 it spreads like the beetles. We can't let that fir die so support the personnal that can manage that looming problem. Jeldoitquicknomercy

[dana]

Jelly,
Heard on the radio a week ago that they are expecting a large fir beetle outbreak in the Kamloops area this summer. Soon the Loops will be back to being the grassland it was meant to be. :)

[MattB]

Well that definetely wont be too good. At least with the looper they run on a bit of a cycle, although this last cycle seems to be drawn out. Anyone ever notice how shitty that fir stand is looking driving up the coq just past inks lake?

[Jelvis]

Won't have to worry about the grasslands being taken up by the trees spreading into it. A deer can hide behind a garbage can lid. The sage brush bucks are supposed to be the biggest and smartest from what the "Experts" say. They can hide in those private ranches year round at Copper Creek and Sabistan Creek anyway all private. How are you going to hunt those no way. Dewdrop used to be the best coming down from Red Plateau for mule deer. Trees or no trees it's sage brush and willows in the coulees. Yes a wasp that kills fir trees told to me straight from the mouth of a Biologist working hand and hand with BC MOF. How does that grab ya? Jeldevastated

[horshur]

Won't have to worry about the grasslands being taken up by the trees spreading into it. A deer can hide behind a garbage can lid. The sage brush bucks are supposed to be the biggest and smartest from what the "Experts" say. They can hide in those private ranches year round at Copper Creek and Sabistan Creek anyway all private. How are you going to hunt those no way. Dewdrop used to be the best coming down from Red Plateau for mule deer. Trees or no trees it's sage brush and willows in the coulees. Yes a wasp that kills fir trees told to me straight from the mouth of a Biologist working hand and hand with BC MOF. How does that grab ya? Jeldevastated

jelly, the decidous has a blite as well..

[sealevel]

maybe you fellas should go back and ask your school teachers what lupper is . Isn`t it odd that i have fell trees in williston mezeaden the bowren the nass wells, the cariboo all over the shuswap revelstoke and adams ,fort nelson .and you are ask me if i know what old growth is. isn`t it odd in working all those places i never saw a mountain pine beetle tell the middle 90s . There was spruce beetle in the bowron . And lupper witch is not native to north america .And we logged 75 % of bc in 30 years form 1970 to 2000 and you say we didn`t log the old growth fast enough to prevent the pine beetle !! you boys should go back to school so your teacher can tell you more bull.

[Fisher-Dude]

Sealevel,
You do realize that every so many years the Majors have to hand back a percentage of wood to BCTS? Many times this includes blocks they have fully developed.

The 5% to 10% clawback to the BCTS is from consolidation: when a licensee is bought out by a major, there is a clawback of AAC that goes to BCTS. This was to discourage the huge consolidations that we've seen happen in the forest industry by companies buying up others, shutting down the bought out company's mills and using the acquired AAC to supply their (the buyer's) existing mills. The Chief Forester can also take AAC away when employment objectives per M3 are not met by the licence holder.

It's not just an "every few years we'll take some AAC away and give it to the BCTS" thing. It's to preserve jobs in the industry by discouraging consolidation.

PS - it was nice to meet you at the fundraiser tonight Sealevel. It's too bad that some of the more vocal guys on this thread won't join the BCWF and volunteer to help out like you did all night, to support the one organization in this province that fights for all sportmen's rights to hunt and fish in BC. :wink:

[sealevel]

some where dana you get the idea i am an anti logger thats the farthest thing from the truth . My generation not yours screwed up . Now logging in this prov. has no future and we are 100% responsible. I don`t really sure what caused the pine beetle . but i am pretty dam sure it had nothing to do with nature . I have a letter somewhere from the forestry telling me we now have a beetle inn killing the balsum . And last spring my cedar decks were hit .. can`t remember the name of those little buggers ..but how long tell they start attacking live cedar. Oh and i want to log that ogma cause it has a big active colony of fir bark beetle.

[sealevel]

The 5% to 10% clawback to the BCTS is from consolidation: when a licensee is bought out by a major, there is a clawback of AAC that goes to BCTS. This was to discourage the huge consolidations that we've seen happen in the forest industry by companies buying up others, shutting down the bought out company's mills and using the acquired AAC to supply their (the buyer's) existing mills. The Chief Forester can also take AAC away when employment objectives per M3 are not met by the licence holder.

It's not just an "every few years we'll take some AAC away and give it to the BCTS" thing. It's to preserve jobs in the industry by discouraging consolidation.

PS - it was nice to meet you at the fundraiser tonight Sealevel. It's too bad that some of the more vocal guys on this thread won't join the BCWF and volunteer to help out like you did all night, to support the one organization in this province that fights for all sportmen's rights to hunt and fish in BC. :wink:Was nice to meat you fisherdude. my day started with the youth delegates at the range it . was fun but the kids lost most of my arrows.

[dana]

PS - it was nice to meet you at the fundraiser tonight Sealevel. It's too bad that some of the more vocal guys on this thread won't join the BCWF and volunteer to help out like you did all night, to support the one organization in this province that fights for all sportmen's rights to hunt and fish in BC. :wink:


Does that include fighting to protect hunter's hidey holes that are being logged? This thread is very much Anti logging. I happen to make my living in forestry development. If the BCWF is going to step up and try to protect all the hidey holes of it's members then that is just another reason I won't support it.

[sealevel]

Do you have a back up plan for making a living ?

[guest]

This thread has really gone for a ___T. OH well your honey hole is being logged, to bad so sad, it's happened to almost every one, thats progress. People need to make a living, it's no different then a road being closed or no hunting area. MOVE on, find another spot !!
Man oh man, want some cheese with that wine?
C/T

[MattB]

maybe you fellas should go back and ask your school teachers what lupper is . Isn`t it odd that i have fell trees in williston mezeaden the bowren the nass wells, the cariboo all over the shuswap revelstoke and adams ,fort nelson .and you are ask me if i know what old growth is. isn`t it odd in working all those places i never saw a mountain pine beetle tell the middle 90s . There was spruce beetle in the bowron . And lupper witch is not native to north america .And we logged 75 % of bc in 30 years form 1970 to 2000 and you say we didn`t log the old growth fast enough to prevent the pine beetle !! you boys should go back to school so your teacher can tell you more bull.

Like i said before, where is your sources? Alot of the info you seem to be spouting out seems to be hearsay...

[MattB]

And forestry does have a future in BC, although it definetely wont likely be the largest industry (like it was in the past). Anyone getting into forestry nowadays will have no trouble getting work. Many of the forest professionals are nearing retirement age, that = jobs for new people to enter the industry. Yes, there will be cutbacks to the AAC, but there will still be plenty of work. Things are changing like they always have. New information will change forestry with time.

[Fisher-Dude]

Does that include fighting to protect hunter's hidey holes that are being logged? This thread is very much Anti logging. I happen to make my living in forestry development. If the BCWF is going to step up and try to protect all the hidey holes of it's members then that is just another reason I won't support it.

That shows how poorly informed you really are about the BCWF. They are NOT anti-logging. They do NOT oppose the logging of hunters' hidey-holes.

They will stand up when a hunter's hidey-hole is lost to a golf course. They will stand up when a hunter's hidey-hole is over run with grizzly bears but government bans hunting the grizzlies to get votes from anti-hunters.
They will stand up when a company tries to permanently keep a hunter out of his hidey-hole.

The BCWF represents many people from resource-dependent communities. Perhaps if you bothered to get involved you'd know that. And, instead of chirping on here all day you could give Sealevel a hand teaching those kids how to shoot arrows. It's only $40. :wink:

[dana]

FD,
Like I've said many times in the past, I have been a member in the past. But with guys like you as a spokesperson, you will have a hard time getting me to join again. Besides, you don't truly want "Trophy Hunters" to be in your org as they are all selfish and push their own agendas right? Remember my family and I are 'Fu**ing the hunting for our kids'? Remember those words that you spoke? Hmmm, still not man enough to apologize either are ya? My family has done more for the good of hunting than you could ever imagine but you don't care as you think your agenda is the only agenda in this province that counts. You bash fellow hunters again and again and yet you are God's gift to the future of hunting?

[sealevel]

No matt maybe first hand experence i have only done this for 37 years . The hear say is the 75% but that will not be far off. But just think about it there was no beetle prob. even with the whole north country covered with mature pine. I can`t remember exactly when we stopped slash burning sometime in the 80s. Thats no 1--poor forest practice . no2 after logging went all macanical we did bother with the small patches of blow down .Poor logging practice and greed. And I and loggers like me are to blame . Good example have you seen the blowdown in yoho park ? Blowdown in the early 90s . Parks canada wouldn`t log it . Now the whole country around it is bug kill . Now you have gone to school so you tell me this. Fir bark beetle attacks stressed tree`s so it has a place in a natural forest. Pine beetle attacks healthy trees so what pepose do`s it have in a healthy forest.

[Fisher-Dude]

FD,
Like I've said many times in the past, I have been a member in the past. But with guys like you as a spokesperson, you will have a hard time getting me to join again. Besides, you don't truly want "Trophy Hunters" to be in your org as they are all selfish and push their own agendas right? Remember my family and I are 'Fu**ing the hunting for our kids'? Remember those words that you spoke? Hmmm, still not man enough to apologize either are ya? My family has done more for the good of hunting than you could ever imagine but you don't care as you think your agenda is the only agenda in this province that counts. You bash fellow hunters again and again and yet you are God's gift to the future of hunting?

The BCWF supports all hunters. If those hunters happen to choose to be trophy hunters, good for them. The BCWF won't support an exclusionary vision or agenda, but they will still support all hunters. Try to get your head around that concept - we all drive on the highway that supports us, but some may be in Corvettes and some may be in Chevettes. The highway is there for us all.

I have nothing to apolgise for - when you continue to bash the good work that people who volunteer countless hours do through their clubs, you are doing harm to the future of hunting for your kids and everyone elses. Your "voice" on here doesn't get things done to create any opportunities for kids, but helping out with your local club and working towards proposals/programs to help kids (not yours, they already hunt and fish) who otherwise wouldn't get a chance to hunt and fish will.

Enough of the hijack. Back to MPB and dead pine trees. What are people's thoughts on all the blocks that were replanted with lodgepole pine 15 years ago that were traditionally mixed species or ESSF? I remember that we planted as much pine as possible to get 3m and 7m green up as fast as possible so that we could get to second pass. What are people's thoughts on this, now that we see even 15 year old stands being ravaged by MPB? In hindsight, I think 5m spruce/balsam right now would be better than 8m dead Pl today.

[dana]

No dude, I don't see myself bashing anyone here other than reponding to the constant bashing that you keep doing to fellow hunters on this site. Your constant calling out people, calling them 'selfish' when they might disagree with you and your agenda, the constant berating of hunters that don't share your particular viewpoint. That is where you and your 'Camp' have lost guys like me. Your holier than thou constant beating of fellow hunters. Like I've said many times, you do more harm than you do good on these boards. If you think that you can constantly bash hunters but then bag for their money to support your org you are sadly mistaken.

[Jelvis]

sealevel I just want to say that I always respected the big tree fallers for their ability to do a really dangerous physically tough job and lay a big tree out right and not busting it up. I've seen the tree fallers around before and are always amazed at the job they can do so well, glad to hear your experienced thoughts on here. Jelvis

[sealevel]

Jelves here`s a story for you .The company i fell for we took out 3 masts for the bluenose 2 . Fir 110 feet long 15in across the top . They came out of franklin river.

[one-shot-wonder]

you think that you can constantly bash hunters but then bag for their money to support your org you are sadly mistaken.

I hardly think the financial support is really what he is looking for. If that was the case he would probably be prodding someone with deeper pockets than you Dana. What I am reading here on this highjack is that FD just wants you to get involoved, yes it might start with purchasing a membership but so be it what the hell is $40 bucks. Chump change.....

I encourage not only you but everyone on this forum to get involved. I have seen what you can do on this forum board and the time and energy you put into it, so how about given a small fraction of that to one of the North Thompson club's or even be a direct member and help out in your own way.

[Jelvis]

Wow what a memory to have and think about that is really a mammoth job, obviously the company and the loggers knew how to get the job done right. Thanks for sharing sealevel

[LostInSpaces]

Planted to staight pine? Got news. More than just pine gets planted. I track this data. Yes a high proportion is pine but then so were the stands that were logged. About one third is spruce and we've done work with aspen, balsam, birch, fir and larch. Each has it's own role and some are used to immediately green up to cover visual concerns, some to stabilize roads on wet ground, others for sites that may not grow the pine and spruce as well and some are research looking for options. The long term goal is to re-grow a forest that is similar to what was logged.

Why are you seeing younger stands being hit and killed? Once the beetle population is high enough in an area they have to go somewhere as there aren't enough large pine. The larva can't survive in the smaller trees but it still kills the tree anyway. At this stage they'll also hit other species like spruce.

Large piles of slash? Forestry is a business. You only take back to the mill what you can turn into product. With the income from that product you take a profit but also accrue money to grow the new stand. There is a whole separate survey and billing (Waste and Residue) for anything left behind. The piles do get burned and planted after that happens.

[MattB]

No matt maybe first hand experence i have only done this for 37 years . The hear say is the 75% but that will not be far off. But just think about it there was no beetle prob. even with the whole north country covered with mature pine. I can`t remember exactly when we stopped slash burning sometime in the 80s. Thats no 1--poor forest practice . no2 after logging went all macanical we did bother with the small patches of blow down .Poor logging practice and greed. And I and loggers like me are to blame . Good example have you seen the blowdown in yoho park ? Blowdown in the early 90s . Parks canada wouldn`t log it . Now the whole country around it is bug kill . Now you have gone to school so you tell me this. Fir bark beetle attacks stressed tree`s so it has a place in a natural forest. Pine beetle attacks healthy trees so what pepose do`s it have in a healthy forest.

First hand knowledge has its place, similar to TEK knowledge and FN. You can learn alot from people that have been in the industry a long time. I cant imagine that 75% of the old growth has been logged. Sure, lots of it has been logged, but there is still alot of old growth left. Who knows whats gonna be left after the MPB.
In regards to parks, the same thing has happened in Manning. MPB went in there in the 90s (i believe) hammered it and then spread from there because they wouldnt log it. I think parks need to be managed for disease and insects too. But i guess leaving natural ecosystems to persist on their own has its place too!

[sealevel]

matt i will bet you could find out for sure if you are interrested and you will be shocked i think . In 1980 the last water shed in bc that hadn`t been logged in was the stien. But consider willys puddle in the winter there is 1200- 70 meter loads come into town every day . I roughly figger thats 800 hecters a day . Quesnel and PG are a lot more and all the other big mill towns in the prov. and they have been doing that for how many years. name me a valley that still has marketable timber on the valley floor.

[Timbow]

matt i will bet you could find out for sure if you are interrested and you will be shocked i think . In 1980 the last water shed in bc that hadn`t been logged in was the stien. But consider willys puddle in the winter there is 1200- 70 meter loads come into town every day . I roughly figger thats 800 hecters a day . Quesnel and PG are a lot more and all the other big mill towns in the prov. and they have been doing that for how many years. name me a valley that still has marketable timber on the valley floor.

How do you get a 70 m3 load? A B-train with 3 bunks carries approximately 40 m3 and those are 16 or 18 footers. I have seen 4 bunks but hey are usually shorts. I doubt that each bunk carries 17.5 m3.

As for marketable timber in any valley, every valley in Quesnel still has the timber.

Cheers

[Fisher-Dude]

How do you get a 70 m3 load? A B-train with 3 bunks carries approximately 40 m3 and those are 16 or 18 footers. I have seen 4 bunks but hey are usually shorts. I doubt that each bunk carries 17.5 m3.

As for marketable timber in any valley, every valley in Quesnel still has the timber.

Cheers

We had 12' bunked tree-length off-highway trucks that averaged 68 M3 on TFL49. Most of our highway trucks were 38 - 40 M3.

[Timbow]

We had 12' bunked tree-length off-highway trucks that averaged 68 M3 on TFL49. Most of our highway trucks were 38 - 40 M3.

Sounds about right, so where is Sealevel getting his info from? Williams Lake and Quesnel are all highway loads, no off highway loads. I even question his 1600 truck loads too.

Not to slander a few member, but I question his logging ideas as a lot of his statements are BS! For someone who works in the woods he doesn't really know much and I wish he would educate himself first before typing his BS on how logging is taken place in the interior. This is the type of BS I would expect from a "anti" living on the coast preaching on the state of the forest industry. Sorry Sealevel, but your statements are not too level, rather scewd.

Cheers

[MattB]

Sounds about right, so where is Sealevel getting his info from? Williams Lake and Quesnel are all highway loads, no off highway loads. I even question his 1600 truck loads too.

Not to slander a few member, but I question his logging ideas as a lot of his statements are BS! For someone who works in the woods he doesn't really know much and I wish he would educate himself first before typing his BS on how logging is taken place in the interior. This is the type of BS I would expect from a "anti" living on the coast preaching on the state of the forest industry. Sorry Sealevel, but your statements are not too level, rather scewd.

Cheers

Thats where asking for the source comes in. If you dont have the #s in front of you, then dont believe it. Theres lots of BS in this world, most of its on the net ;)

[sealevel]

I logged a block at tahardy lake and my loads with 7 axles averaged 70 meters of dry pine loaded by greenbelts loader hauled it WL. A 7 axle hook truck hauling out of beaver valley averaged 52 meters of green pine hauled by ray from maclease lake. You think i have never logged around those two towns . Our still have reletives that work and live there.

[sealevel]

timbow i didn`say 1600 i said 1200 that was right out of the WL paper so you figger it out . Around here a hectre of fir runs about 250- 400 meters. That shit short pine out west of WL i would be generous giving it 150 meters per hectre . Is it an anti to say since about 1970 we have logged at a rate many times faster then the forest could maintain. All i am say that us the whole industry is responsible for poor forest practices poor logging practices . Poor reforestation and greed. Going right back to the early 70s. Take van isle at one time they could leave more wood per hectre on the ground then the cariboo had total per hectre. But they have very little wood left and now there is fir bark beetle.

[Trapper]

Some one needs to do the math on 1200 hundred loads a day that would take around 400 logging trucks per day at a average of 3 loads per day each,plus how many logging contractors would it take to produce 1200 loads per day alot more then what is up at williams lk.plus the mill would never be able to cut that many loads per day,so they would have to stock pile,it wouldn't take long to fill up the log yard at that rate. i think some one added one to many 0's on that #

[sealevel]

Trapper how do you get that there`s 4 big mills and a couple small ones in WL I have no idea how many loads a day they cut when in full prodution . So take one zero away is 120 . Tolko in armstrong takes in more then that an its one mill. and not the size of the one`s in WL

[Jelvis]

Some hunters like hunting above Tranquille Lake N.W. of Kamloops cause they logged it out some and the deer are there and can be seen in the logged areas, one fella in the gym got a four point that came out where the does had gathered by the edge of the cut, so logging in that area helped him nail a buck. Jellogginghelpedhimseethebuckwhenthedoescameoutont heedgeofthecut

[mrdoog]

If your "Honey Hole" is logged in Central America, would it be considered a "Brazilian"?

[rock]

Did you ever think that maybe that spruce was hit by Spruce Beetle? Hmmm, yup, spruce does have forest health issues as well. On top of that, Mountain Pine Beetle has now decided it loves to eat spruce as well.
Even if that spruce was healthy, what's wrong with that? There is a little thing called 'Economics' that really plays into how and where we log. With the market saturated with pine, that means pine is selling for shit. Supply and demand. Hard to log pine when you loose money just getting it to the landing, let alone truckin it to the mill. With all the Red and Dead that is checked beyond belief, you can barely sell it for pulp. Many licensee's are now targeting other species. In fact, so is the Forest Service. :)

The beetles have already attack the spruce according to a few logging buddies up towards clinton, so the forest are in trouble and for logging we've had deer using it in the first year of logging

[Jelvis]

Right now the loggers at least the one's I talk to are out of the bush cause of the frost coming out and mud all over the mountain roads making for unstable ground. Jellystonepark

[Jelvis]

My Honey Hole was logged and burn't then logged again, a few times and it seems to bounce back, at least I see lots of deer there now especially in late fall, Amigo. Jel