Disgraceful Display of Hunting

[Timberjack]

Anybody seen the video "Nahanni Twisters" from The Guide's Eye series? I just bought it on the weekend and watched it last night with great anticipation (as I do all my new hunting videos) and needless to say I was very disappointed.

Portions of this video totally crossed the line when it comes to hunting ethics. I'm not a bow hunter, but 6 shots at a moving ram at distances of up to 90 yards at very steep inclines isn't even close to an ethical shot in my books. And no rifle hunter should be hunting at all if he needs 5 shots at an animal at ranges under 200 yards. Not to mention the first 5 minutes of the video is some great footage of groups of rams being chased through talus boulder fields by a freakin helicopter.

All this is bad enough, but to put it on a video and sell it is disgraceful. The makers of this video should be charged with animal harrassment, and be stripped of their guiding privilages.

I guess you can't be sure of the shooting abilities of the people you guide, but this video gives me the impression that these antics are commonplace with this guide/outfitter. Hopefully I'm not way off base with these comments, I'd like to hear your thoughts...

Timberjack

[BlacktailStalker]

I hear ya.
Thats not the only video they've made that is questionable.
Unfortunately, as its been said, ethics are like a$$holes, everyone has one but some are shittier than others.
Its all about pumpin' out the vids as fast as possible, as many as possible, so quality or not, it all makes the cut for film.
I don't agree with it at all.

[Timberjack]

maybe we can at least lobby our local hunting stores to not carry such crap on their shelves...

TJ

[silvicon]

I am not surpriced, considering WHO made the video.
They have to sell hunts to keep the money rolling in, making
over one mill. a year is not enough.
Maybe there is a warden on here how can look into this operation?

[StoneChaser]

Just a hunch, but I'm guessing you won't be seeing any spring bear footage from one of them this year!

[eric]

Some peoples ethics are a little lower than others I guess.
Theres no way that that kind of stuff should make it's way onto retailers shelfs.
Also, what about the hunter that shoots the sheep in the A$$, you would think that they would have edited that out.
My oldest boy worked 2 summers up there with those guys. He was not very impressed with what he calls their canned sheep hunts, useing a helicopter to drop off hunters and guides. I myself believe that the use of choppers is crossing the line on ethics, but that's just my opinion

OOOPS sorry not trying to open a can of worms or hijack this thread
Eric

[eric]

Funny Stonechaser
Ol Barts A$$ is probably still sore after his oldman was done kickin it all the way to the court house to pay the fine

[Maxx]

Just a hunch, but I'm guessing you won't be seeing any spring bear footage from one of them this year!



Oh Stonechaser, always "horsin" around...:wink:

[Nailgunslinger]

Some peoples ethics are a little lower than others I guess.
Theres no way that that kind of stuff should make it's way onto retailers shelfs.
Also, what about the hunter that shoots the sheep in the A$$, you would think that they would have edited that out.
My oldest boy worked 2 summers up there with those guys. He was not very impressed with what he calls their canned sheep hunts, useing a helicopter to drop off hunters and guides. I myself believe that the use of choppers is crossing the line on ethics, but that's just my opinion

OOOPS sorry not trying to open a can of worms or hijack this thread
Eric

Using a helicopter to hunt with is definitely crossing the line. Using one to get to a hunting area is no different than using a 4x4, float plane or boat to get to a hunting area IMO.

[Mr. Dean]

Just a hunch, but I'm guessing you won't be seeing any spring bear footage from one of them this year!
:shock: :wink: :lol:



Using a helicopter to hunt with is definitely crossing the line. Using one to get to a hunting area is no different than using a 4x4, float plane or boat to get to a hunting area IMO.
Except that you can't just jump out and start hunting... That would be illegal.

[Dirty]

Using a helicopter to hunt with is definitely crossing the line. Using one to get to a hunting area is no different than using a 4x4, float plane or boat to get to a hunting area IMO.

In some areas the use of a helicopter is LEGAL. I was also sickened by the guides eye series. I saw one video where a rich looking lady in a nice sweater shot a cougar with a bow. She was laughing before she shot it and then laughed after she killed it like it was a big joke. Completely sickening crap!

[Rubicon500]

Typical Internet trash talk, everyman and there dog is a saint when they post on this site yet in real life they are the complete opposite. You may as well Cut down every outfit in NWT and Yukon Seeing they all pretty much use helicopters. When something is LEGAL it is LEGAL. Shove your ethics speach where the sun dont shine. Getting dropped off on a mountain in a helicopter is no bloody different than driving into a cut block in your truck or quad hunting mule deer or whatever it is your hunting. When your guiding you dont know how good of a shot the client is till yah see him shoot. He says hes comfortable dumping a animal up to 300 yards you got to take his word for it. For the thread starter, I take it you kill every single animal with 1 shot ? I doubt it, you dont like the video throw it out cause alot of people enjoy watching them lancaster flicks.

[Trapper]

Iam with Rubicon500 on this one,the lancaster just show the way it is.

[BCBear]

I like the Lancaster videos, that being said I haven't seen any of Bart's videos with helicopters in them. Shockey is the one that baffles me. guys in dress slacks and collared shirts taking down bear with not so much as a bead of sweat on their forehead...where's the limo?

[dana]

Can you imagine, there are some sheep hunters here in BC that get flown in with a plane and we call that legal. Some hunters just have no ethics:roll:

I haven't watched the Guides Eye but I have seen several of the Canadian Wilderness videos. I personally like them. When it comes to guiding, you never know what your client is going to miss. When I guided, we took every hunter to the range day one and had them shoot. Most would put 3 shots in the bullseye at 100 yards. That means the gun is shooting on and the client should be able to get the job done. It never failed though, every single one of the clients I guided missed animals. Some at under 40 yards. Buck fever can really play on some hunters. Is that the guide's fault. Nope. That is the hunter's fault. But when you are handed lemons you make lemonade and you work your ass off and try and try again to help the client fulfill their dream.

I have friends that have made hunting videos, and they say there is a choice when it comes down to the editing phase. Some shots ain't pretty. Plan and simple. Do you leave them in and show the hunt as it was, or do you do the sappy redo that you see many of the Eastern Whitey hunting videos do where they stage the walking up to the animal? Then there is the delima of the almighty killshot. If they cut the killshot the masses complain because many like seeing the killshot and if there isn't X amount of killshots in the video, the masses say your video is no good. But....if you show the killshot there are some that still complain because they think the world of hunting is rosey and clean and they like to live in the la la land that no critters were harmed in the making of the video. It is a lose lose situation for the videographer. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[Nailgunslinger]

:shock: :wink: :lol:



Except that you can't just jump out and start hunting... That would be illegal.

Pretty much what I meant, I figured that would be included in the hunting with a helicpoter bit I mentioned. :mrgreen:

[Nailgunslinger]

In some areas the use of a helicopter is LEGAL. I was also sickened by the guides eye series. I saw one video where a rich looking lady in a nice sweater shot a cougar with a bow. She was laughing before she shot it and then laughed after she killed it like it was a big joke. Completely sickening crap!

Where is using a helicopter to hunt legal in Canada? Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel to me, doesnt bide well with me and I'm a plain and simple meat hunter.

[Brambles]

Dana and Rubican500 pretty much nailed it for me, no point in beating a dead dog and repeating what has already been said.

[Dirty]

Where is using a helicopter to hunt legal in Canada? Kinda like shooting fish in a barrel to me, doesnt bide well with me and I'm a plain and simple meat hunter.

It is legal in the Yukon I think, if I am wrong somebody feel free to correct me. Okay here is another question. Is it any worse if a float plane does a few passes around to find out where the sheep are before putting you down in a lake? Furthermore, what about renting a helicopter to go out and do some scouting before hunting? Don't think it doesn't happen, there are lots of guys in BC with a lot of cake.

[Krico]

I have that video too.

The Lancasters advertise their videos as being "Shown in unrehearsed honesty."-you get to see the good shots, and the bad. I'll take that any day rather than the over-edited b.s. you get with a lot of the other hunting videos.

There is nothing illegal shown in the video-use of helicopters included.

You can always sell the video on the E.E. since you dislike it so much.

[bruin]

It is legal in the Yukon I think, if I am wrong somebody feel free to correct me.

You have been corrected, it is not legal to hunt with or get dropped off by a chopper in the Yukon.

[Nailgunslinger]

It is legal in the Yukon I think, if I am wrong somebody feel free to correct me. Okay here is another question. Is it any worse if a float plane does a few passes around to find out where the sheep are before putting you down in a lake? Furthermore, what about renting a helicopter to go out and do some scouting before hunting? Don't think it doesn't happen, there are lots of guys in BC with a lot of cake.

My only problem is with actually shooting an animal from a helicopter or finding something and pining it down in an area then shooting it. Not the way I would scout either...I don't have access to a heli, but I wouldn't want to spook the animals out of the area anyway. If that kinda thing works for someone, its no skin off my nuts. ;)

[Nailgunslinger]

You have been corrected, it is not legal to hunt with or get dropped off by a chopper in the Yukon.

Aircraft and Helicopters

It is unlawful to:
hunt wildlife from an aircraft,
spot wildlife from an aircraft and hunt it within 48 hours, or communicate its
location to a hunter on the ground,
hunt wildlife within 48 hours of receiving information about the location of wildlife
from a person who observed that wildlife from an aircraft,
transport big game by helicopter,
transport big game hunters, or be transported for the purpose of big game hunting,
by helicopter,
transport any vehicle by helicopter for the purpose of hunting, or
hunt big game within six hours of arriving at a hunt camp by aircraft other than a
commercial aircraft on a regularly scheduled flight from one airport to another.

Its just not within 48 hours.

[hunter1947]

That's not my type of hunting ,I stay away from looking at crap like that.

[wetcoasthunter]

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, to each their own (as long as its legal)

But to say using a helicopter is the same as using horses, a quad or a 4x4 is rediculous. Big difference between looking for animals from the ground and getting a birds eye view with a helicopter, give your head a shake.

[Nailgunslinger]

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, to each their own (as long as its legal)

But to say using a helicopter is the same as using horses, a quad or a 4x4 is rediculous. Big difference between looking for animals from the ground and getting a birds eye view with a helicopter, give your head a shake.


It is the same as to getting to a location to set up camp, then leaving to go hunt after the waiting periods most provinces require. I take it scouting with a helicopter is against your code of ethics but you have not explained why?
I don't think anyone has referred to scouting with a helicopter as bieng the same as scouting with any other mode of transport besides a plane.

[kgriz]

The videos are for entertainment value....That's pretty much it. I wouldn't do some of the things on the videos but I also realize that its not a documentory or how-to show. As far as helicopters go, if a lot of you are so concerned about them worry about your own province. Did you even notice that a couple of years ago the provision for " or their gear" was taken out of the unlawful helicopter use part? Now it states that it is unlawful to transport hunters or wildlife not "and their gear". I originally heard about the outfitter in Mcbride using a helicopter under this provision to transport camps to the mountain top and the hunters just walked up with what they were wearing. This being within 50 km from where I hunt griz and was told that a sled could not follow me on my quad in case the snow crapped out and I got stranded; they were SO worried that you could get close to the bears when they first come out. But now they changed it so quads with tracked and argos with tracks are OK but not sleds. Rules are rules I understand that but i HATE IT when they do not follow consistent logic. I've also heard of quite a few "die hard" and "purist" sheep hunters down south getting together and hiring a chopper to haul in water tanks into the dry country so that they can stay on top....I'm sure they think that that's ethical and fair but it becomes a slippery slope quickly.

[sfire436]

I heard someone saying that they did not like the shockey vids?Why is that? I always found hid videos to be well made and tastefull. I honestly believe that he is a great representation of canadian hunting (trophy and meat) As for not breaking a sweat while bear hunting, it's bear hunting, we all know how easy it can be in the logged areas,more so on the island.

[srupp]

sheeeesh..these guys are making $$$$$ selling the STEAK AND THE SIZZLE..very hard to do day in and out..trophy game isnt around every corner.Ive seen lots of Lancasters videos and actually they are nicer in the video than in person..I guess they already have your $$$$.

I didnt like Shockey for a great while..however I have changed my tune he is a true showman..a knowledgable hunter with plenty of experience doing ssomething he loves that has made him a multi millionair and I enjoy his hunts and adventures..my .02

Steven:biggrin:

[o2fish2day]

Form rules #6. There is to be no frowning upon a member for the method of hunting used, or the sex, age of the animal. If it's legal then it's legal no if, and, or, but!

Ok, so it's not a member we are frowning upon and it is a public piece of work but I have to say I hate the ethical debates. It's like trolling. No one is going to agree. The best you should hope for is common beleifs between you and who you go hunting with. Beyond that...I don't think we should pass judgement. If it's legal...it's legal.

In sask they bait bears, in BC they don't. In the fraser it's flossing and in the vedder it's wrong... who is to say?... I say the law makers...if it's that wrong then they should change the law. If you don't like it, set the example and don't do it. Then lobby to get the law changed via a group like BC Wildlife Associate.

I find I can't stand most flyfishing forums or urban sockeye runs these days because they have gone so far down the ethical debate that they see themselves as pureist based on the leader they use, the barbless hook or the type of fly....I think these guys have lost touch with reality. They shout at each other on the forums and then take it to the river bank for a ..um ...nice peacefull day on the river...

Sorta like the road rage philosophy, fix every driver, one argument at a time.


Hope that doesn't happen to this forum.

<grumble> :-x

[Timberjack]

Typical Internet trash talk, everyman and there dog is a saint when they post on this site yet in real life they are the complete opposite. You may as well Cut down every outfit in NWT and Yukon Seeing they all pretty much use helicopters. When something is LEGAL it is LEGAL. Shove your ethics speach where the sun dont shine. Getting dropped off on a mountain in a helicopter is no bloody different than driving into a cut block in your truck or quad hunting mule deer or whatever it is your hunting. When your guiding you dont know how good of a shot the client is till yah see him shoot. He says hes comfortable dumping a animal up to 300 yards you got to take his word for it. For the thread starter, I take it you kill every single animal with 1 shot ? I doubt it, you dont like the video throw it out cause alot of people enjoy watching them lancaster flicks.

Guys -

I didn't say a goddamn thing about using helicopters other than you shouldn't use them to chase animals through boulder fields. Period.

I still feel that taking numerous low percentage shots at an animal and not even coming close is unethical as you run a great risk of injuring or losing an animal. I didn't say every shot I've ever taken has been perfect. And I fully understand the problem a guide has with varyinig client abilities. But the main problem I have with it is the image it portrays about the sport we love to the people who don't know any better by putting it on video.

So don't tell me to shove my ethics where the sun don't shine you ignorant asshole, and I'll give you the same speech right to your face - it's got nothing to do with the internet!

TJ

[BCBear]

I heard someone saying that they did not like the shockey vids?Why is that? I always found hid videos to be well made and tastefull. I honestly believe that he is a great representation of canadian hunting (trophy and meat) As for not breaking a sweat while bear hunting, it's bear hunting, we all know how easy it can be in the logged areas,more so on the island.

I don't like his cavebear dvd because half the hunters on that dvd look like they are dressed for 9 holes of golf...if hunting bear is that easy than so be it, but that just ain't my style. It appears to be too easy IMO. As for him the person I don't know him or anyone who has hunted with him as a guide, just commenting on his bear video.

[Timberjack]

Rubicon500:

I apologize for the language used in my last post, however I do find your comments ignorant in nature and unfortunate in that you can not see that many (most?) of us hunt with the utmost of ethics and respect for the animals in mind.

TJ

[Timberjack]

Just a quick thought here, not trying to stir the pot. :wink: I understand the need to give a positive image to hunting. I just wonder if a non-hunter who sees someone on video taking what we would consider high-risk, or unethical, shots at game, will they see that in the same light as we do? Would many non-hunters actually understand what an unethical shot is, and judge the video to be a poor one because of that?

It's a good question. However, I do think a non-hunter would be able to see that an injured animal from a number of poor shots would be a) not right, and b) disturbing for some...

TJ

[c.r.hunter]

It's a good question. However, I do think a non-hunter would be able to see that an injured animal from a number of poor shots would be a) not right, and b) disturbing for some...

TJ

I agree. A wounded animal is clearly suffering. I know it happens & it's part of hunting but I personally would rather not see it.

[Gateholio]

Please keep this discussion civil, no need to be rude.

I think that the ones I am directing this to you know who you are.

Thanks

[willy442]

Rubicon500:

I apologize for the language used in my last post, however I do find your comments ignorant in nature and unfortunate in that you can not see that many (most?) of us hunt with the utmost of ethics and respect for the animals in mind.

TJ

TJ: I agree with your assessment of the video. As proffessionals guides should take extra care in providing ethical shots for clients. I'm sure a court of law would hold a guide to a much higher standard then a guided hunter. How many sheep hunters could be proud of telling you. I got in a chopper, flew up 3000 ft, found a bunch of rams, watched them for 6 hours and then dumped one? NONE Those that do this are NOT sheep hunters.

[Creeker]

I for one was lucky enough to go on a Lancaster Dall sheep hunt last year.
First off using Helicopters in any hunting matter, unfortunatly comes directly from a personal feeling no matter how you bend it.
I have been on a few stone sheep hunts in the past few years and love hunting sheep. The difference i have seen from NWT is first, the number of rams. When i was in nahanni the rams were everywhere. i am not kidding. The rams these guys hunt does not even touch the number of rams there are in there area . It is not the matter of finding a ram or tormenting a ram by flying around it. They are all over the place. The hunter that hunted the same time as me in a differnet location seen 37 differnet rams in one day. I think that their quota for there entire area which is massive is 40 per year (?? please correct) It is not like you fly around looking for a ram and land and shoot it ( dont get me wrong i have put 37km of on foot mountain hiking for stone sheep in a 6 day period it is different) I have spent a week on foot and over 30 km on foot in BC and seen 3 stone rams in total.
When I was in Nahanni everyone was perfesssional and no one in any sense gave any indication of anything less then ethical and lawless hunting. We did the whole check your gun and shooting abilites pre hunt. And the guide I had was more concerned about making sure the shot was good than taping my hunt for me. He did not trust the fact i could get the job done just because i said i could. Of course there was no issue in taking the shot. But when i was there ALL meat was flown out and if there was any issue in transportation it was given to the natives. I dont think you understand how much meat the lancasters fly out for the natives, I assure you it is emmense. I for one took all the meat home with me excluding the ribs, which i gave to my guide as he told me prior they were his favourite meal in the world. The rest was cut and wrapped in camp and placed in a cooler for my drive home.
When i was staying in the main camp the biologest from Fort Simpson was staying in the same cabin as me. And we had a few nights to chat, he told me he was greratful for the extra time the lancasters invested in wildlife managment. He was happy with there record and age harvesting of the rams also the training with bonus structure they had for there guides. All rams are inspected by the govt. before leaving NWT. They even paid for him to fly in and out of ther camp and fed and housed him for the time he was there.

From what i witnessed Nahanni Butte was nothing but honest. I of course cant speak for all time but they were very knowldedgable and strict on rules and quality of meat procedures when i was present. I personally feel it will be a shame when our govt. expands the park. There terrritory is so remote that no one will ever see the beautiful country little lone the emense game, That is there. The only people going there is to fly over the the falls. Trust me the bugs are worse than you have ever seen in your life!!!!!!

Timberjack, I do not have a problem with your ethical stance on sheep hunting or any hunting for that matter. But you stating you are strictly a meat hunter and critize a filmed sheep hunt bends me the wrong way. Sorry to tell you but there is no sheep hunter out there is out there strictly for the meat. Unless you include the hiway hunters in southern bc, but i dont think any of us would call them sheep hunters. I do understand your problem with some of the whole over reaction. I know fesure i act in a totally differnt way when i kill a animal. But i guarantee you when i find my dream stone sheep and kill it there will be hooting and holering and most likely a tear shed.
INMHO>
J..

[Creeker]

Oops, didnt realize how long i went on for!!

[Deaddog]

Creeker, thanks for the post, nice to hear from someone who has actually hunted with the Lancasters vs those of us who voice our thoughts mainly based on internet chat and our interpertation of other forms of media regarding the lancasters.

[boxhitch]

How many sheep hunters could be proud of telling you. I got in a chopper, flew up 3000 ft, found a bunch of rams, watched them for 6 hours and then dumped one? NONE Those that do this are NOT sheep hunters.Another individual point of view. And, Yes they are hunters, in their own way.
Is a horse back sheep hunt any less a hunt than one done on foot ? How bout the riverboat drop hunts, where a ram can be spotted from the water ? Not a sheep hunt also ?
Or take it south, and look at the thousands of Thar hunters, who don't have a wait period, are these not hunters either ?
Its another option, like ir or not. Just turn the channel.

Maybe we should also debate whether Sheep ribs are really better than Backstraps ??

[boxhitch]

I didnt like Shockey for a great while..however I have changed my tune he is a true showman..a knowledgable hunter with plenty of experience doing ssomething he loves that has made him a multi millionair and I enjoy his hunts and adventures..my .02

Steven:biggrin:My thoughts too. First, I couldn't get past his arrogance, but once that wore thin, he does a good show. Good public speaker, too.

[calvin L]

I to do not like to see poor shots taken but it happen . At least there is no fence in the video . I personaly know some of there guides they are great guy's all above board . I have also meet Cam and Bart (they rubbed me the wrong way a little but it could have been we were hunting the same bear )So I will wait to meet them again and have a sit down to form a idea about them .I am sure the rules are bent through the prov by alot of people that is never talked about . But to raise a stink about legal thing's on video because some doesn't like seems a little point less .

Calvin L

[Nailgunslinger]

"Sorry to tell you but there is no sheep hunter out there is out there strictly for the meat."

Sorry but I hunt every animal strictly for the meat. I like the way mt.sheep and goat tastes like. I don't agree with soley trophy hunting, I believe all the animal should be utilized. I'm not against anyone who goes for the trophy and takes the meat home to eat as well, for me though I really dont care about horns, its just a bonus.

[GoatGuy]

Bad shots happen when guiding - period. It also happens to hunters - period.

Nahanni certainly isn't a slam dunk and the area is managed 100 times better than most in BC. Success is high because there are a pile of sheep and the area is managed well. The bonus structure for the guides is setup to shoot old sheep - the boys get in deep sh8t if they're shooting under 8 not to mention fined. In their other areas they don't shoot their quota because they like to manage their wildlife properly. Most of the area in the NWT is inaccessible by wheel plane and the area is huge. The time rule in the chopper is 6 hrs but they've told their guides to wait the night out (it doesn't get dark!) so nobody gets antsy.

So I suppose you can pick out a couple scenes and wag the finger or you can look at the whole picture. In a time where some outfitters are doubling up on their bookings because of low success rates, indiscriminately shooting 7 yr olds, blocking access and chasing sheep I don't think the Lancasters fall on the dark side.

Funny, nobody has any problem with somebody flying into a high strip or lake where the sheep are shot from shore or within a short hike of the strip - weird?

Or riding a horse for a day and shooting rams in the same spot every year.

[GoatGuy]

TJ: I agree with your assessment of the video. As proffessionals guides should take extra care in providing ethical shots for clients. I'm sure a court of law would hold a guide to a much higher standard then a guided hunter. How many sheep hunters could be proud of telling you. I got in a chopper, flew up 3000 ft, found a bunch of rams, watched them for 6 hours and then dumped one? NONE Those that do this are NOT sheep hunters.

Funny, I'd say the same about exclusive access, fenced, road hunting for whopper bucks - weird.

Course that's just me.

[Timberjack]

...Timberjack, I do not have a problem with your ethical stance on sheep hunting or any hunting for that matter. But you stating you are strictly a meat hunter and critize a filmed sheep hunt bends me the wrong way. ..

I don't know how you got the impression I'm just a meat hunter. I didn't say anything to that effect in my previous posts. My beef was purely to do with respect for the animals and hunter ethics in regards to taking certain shots outside your ability... Oh and a bit of discretion when making a video...

TJ

[Creeker]

TJ,
Sorry got your post and Nailslingers crossed.

[Rubicon500]

"Sorry to tell you but there is no sheep hunter out there is out there strictly for the meat."

Sorry but I hunt every animal strictly for the meat. I like the way mt.sheep and goat tastes like. I don't agree with soley trophy hunting, I believe all the animal should be utilized. I'm not against anyone who goes for the trophy and takes the meat home to eat as well, for me though I really dont care about horns, its just a bonus.


Kind of find that one hard to belive.. So I imagine you'd shoot a Ewe the first day of a hunt rather than look for a nice ram??(IF EWE's were legal to shoot, using it as a example) You know its all about the meat in your case. I just dont buy that at all, Yah with Deer and other animals there are meat hunters. But to say you hunt sheep and goats for meat is balogna. Go on a back pack sheep hunt, just to get 75 pounds of meat dont make sense at all. Your going for the horns period and the meat is a bonus.

[GoatGuy]

Kind of find that one hard to belive.. So I imagine you'd shoot a Ewe the first day of a hunt rather than look for a nice ram??(IF EWE's were legal to shoot, using it as a example) You know its all about the meat in your case. I just dont buy that at all, Yah with Deer and other animals there are meat hunters. But to say you hunt sheep and goats for meat is balogna. Go on a back pack sheep hunt, just to get 75 pounds of meat dont make sense at all. Your going for the horns period and the meat is a bonus.


There are quite a few folks who hunt goats for meat and also many people who put in for and harvest ewes. In the past, before there was a big trophy push on sheep, plenty of people went sheep hunting to shoot sheep, any sheep.

Today things are different not because of a change in hunters but a change in regulations.

Trophy's only what's left.

[BlacktailStalker]

This thread isn't an all out attack on the Lancaster Productions, its about "6 shots at a moving ram at distances of up to 90 yards " being something all hunters can do without being labelled by ( we know it happens all too often!) and for taste and for anti's sake, could have been left out of the dvd.

Not one of you can say that is ethical.
No need for personal attacks and making this thread something that it wasnt meant to be.

[willy442]

Funny, I'd say the same about exclusive access, fenced, road hunting for whopper bucks - weird.

Course that's just me.

Life's a bitch for those not invited inside the fence, I guess. TOO BAD

[willy442]

Another individual point of view. And, Yes they are hunters, in their own way.
Is a horse back sheep hunt any less a hunt than one done on foot ? How bout the riverboat drop hunts, where a ram can be spotted from the water ? Not a sheep hunt also ?
Or take it south, and look at the thousands of Thar hunters, who don't have a wait period, are these not hunters either ?
Its another option, like ir or not. Just turn the channel.

Maybe we should also debate whether Sheep ribs are really better than Backstraps ??

Funny but under the Boone and Crockett definition of fair chase hunting. I failed to see where helicopters were approved. The point being walking, horses, wheeled aircraft, float planes and river boats still require a degree of effort by the hunter, in order to be successful. Helicopters provide an unfair advantage through thier versatility.
I agree to each thier own and alot of the country in the NWT is very inaccessable. The Lancasters could not operate and put through the amount of hunters they do with out the use of a chopper. There is a difference between using it because its needed for supplies and using it because its there, to spot and get to the top.

My Dall ram also came out of the NWT and was not hunted with the aid of a helicopter. My opinion, but I could not have the same pride for a Ram taken with that kind of assistance as one I worked for. For some its only the kill though, the hunt and stalk means nothing.

[Rubicon500]

Jet boats and moose hunting....How is that any different that using a helicopter for sheep?? Floating down the river till ya see a moose and dump it right there?? How is that any more "ethical" or challenging than using a chopper?? You ethics police better jump all over shockeys nuts seeing its in his videos. Maybe we should ban spotting scopes, seeing its unethical cause you can see much more than a guy with binos. Why dont we just go back to hunting with Spears, its unfair to a animal that is 800 yards away to be shot in the spot by a confident shooter. Where do you ethics police draw the line?? Something legal it is legal, I could use a quad, horses, jet boat to help me hunt But I dont, I hike, but it doesnt make any one less of a hunter that does use them,same with a helicopter.

[Rubicon500]

Its funny you mention Boone and Crockett there willy, All that is just another group of Peoples Oppion on what is Fair chase. Boone and Crocket dont reconize California bighorn sheep in there records books, does it make them imaginary animals only BC residents see??

[willy442]

Its funny you mention Boone and Crockett there willy, All that is just another group of Peoples Oppion on what is Fair chase. Boone and Crocket dont reconize California bighorn sheep in there records books, does it make them imaginary animals only BC residents see??

Rubicon; Its very clear you are rambling about something of which you have an opinion, based on very little knowledge. I guess maybe we should look at fannin sheep also. May I also correct you in that, the California Big Horn Sheep range extends much further than BC. Also most hunters with an interest in horns along with meat base the size of thier animal from one form or another of past records. ie. BC Book, Boone and Crockett or maybe what the guy next door took a couple of years ago. It all adds up to other people and opinions.:p

[willy442]

Jet boats and moose hunting....How is that any different that using a helicopter for sheep?? Floating down the river till ya see a moose and dump it right there?? How is that any more "ethical" or challenging than using a chopper?? You ethics police better jump all over shockeys nuts seeing its in his videos. Maybe we should ban spotting scopes, seeing its unethical cause you can see much more than a guy with binos. Why dont we just go back to hunting with Spears, its unfair to a animal that is 800 yards away to be shot in the spot by a confident shooter. Where do you ethics police draw the line?? Something legal it is legal, I could use a quad, horses, jet boat to help me hunt But I dont, I hike, but it doesnt make any one less of a hunter that does use them,same with a helicopter.

Rubicon; The difference is you are using what is naturally there to assist you, by floating down the river, regardless if its a river boat or a birch bark canoe. Use power with the boat and it becomes illegal, helicopters for sheep hunting is the same. If you want to use the air and wind to assist you sheep hunting use a hang glider.

[Rubicon500]

Well Im done wasting my time in this post, Willy go lock some more gates so residents cant get through.

Never once said Calis only live in BC there bud, was using it as a example with your boone and crocket theory

[Nailgunslinger]

Kind of find that one hard to belive.. So I imagine you'd shoot a Ewe the first day of a hunt rather than look for a nice ram??(IF EWE's were legal to shoot, using it as a example) You know its all about the meat in your case. I just dont buy that at all, Yah with Deer and other animals there are meat hunters. But to say you hunt sheep and goats for meat is balogna. Go on a back pack sheep hunt, just to get 75 pounds of meat dont make sense at all. Your going for the horns period and the meat is a bonus.

Well no, I suppose I like the challenge and experience of getting my own meat myself as well as skinning, butchering and eating it. In the case of the ungulates that I have personally eaten (no ewes except farm raised) they are the better tasting and yes I would drop a female over a male no problems at all. It makes sense to people who just like bieng as self suffiecient and adventurous as they are able and enjoy eating game meat. I have trekked into mountain terrain for nothing else than to enjoy looking at wildlife, is that strange to you as well?

[Rubicon500]

No I dont find trekking in the mountains just for hike strange at all. I do it every single weekend till hunting season. Ill hike 30 kms in a weekend staring at the ground looking for sheds. Its Just unheard of to read "meat hunter" and "sheep hunter" in the same sentece thats all. I guess your the first person ive ever heard of that meat hunts for sheep.

[willy442]

Well Im done wasting my time in this post, Willy go lock some more gates so residents cant get through.

Never once said Calis only live in BC there bud, was using it as a example with your boone and crocket theory

You, GG and SSS all sharing the same crying towel? Buck up to lease private land like I do and you could all have your own gate.:)

[o2fish2day]

BAH HA HA ! The debate goes on. Pikey...is it fishing or flossing?? This thread will never end until the mods close it.

[o2fish2day]

Trollin', Trollin', Trollin'
Though this thread is swollen
Keep them posts a Rollin'
Rawhide!

Work 'em up, Ethics gone
Stir 'em up, Mods yawn
Warnings 'up, head 'em out

Reel them in…


RAWHIIIIIDE!

[Nailgunslinger]

No I dont find trekking in the mountains just for hike strange at all. I do it every single weekend till hunting season. Ill hike 30 kms in a weekend staring at the ground looking for sheds. Its Just unheard of to read "meat hunter" and "sheep hunter" in the same sentece thats all. I guess your the first person ive ever heard of that meat hunts for sheep.

Hmm, well all my friends and family who hunt are the same way, except for the trapper and native carver faction on my mothers side who want both sides of the coin. I've just been raised to eat what I kill and respect the taking of life. I love the challenge of the wilderness and the ability it takes to hunt the creatures in it. If I get a trophy out of the deal great, I can't eat the horns though.
I do plan on getting into knife and traditional style bow making as a hobby in the next couple of years and will utilize the horns for handles and a recurve bow project I have my heart set on.

[kishman]

Unless you include the hiway hunters in southern bc,



I can't find hiway's anywhere in the synopsis??? Are they LEH? What's the bag limit??:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

You, GG and SSS all sharing the same crying towel? Buck up to lease private land like I do and you could all have your own gate.:)

I don't think anyone can complain about a legally constructed gate on private land.....as long as it actually is on PRIVATE LAND:-?.


SSS

[bigwhiteys]

I don't think anyone can complain about a legally constructed gate on private land.....as long as it actually is on PRIVATE LAND:???:.

Give it up Brent. It's getting OLD.

Carl

[Creeker]

I can't find hiway's anywhere in the synopsis??? Are they LEH? What's the bag limit??:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

:D . ..

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Give it up Brent. It's getting OLD.

Carl

Carl
Actually, I don't think I even posted on this thread until "Pops" mentioned "SSS".

I can sit by silently for only so long:roll:. Call it a flaw if you will.

SSS

[Fisher-Dude]

I don't think anyone can complain about a legally constructed gate on private land.....as long as it actually is on PRIVATE LAND:-?.


SSS

Hell, some guys just rip the road to shreds to keep residents out SSS. Pay for an excavator for a couple of hours and dig some nice big ditches. Willy may have some contacts in that business that can give anyone their own "private" hunting area.

:wink:

[willy442]

I don't think anyone can complain about a legally constructed gate on private land.....as long as it actually is on PRIVATE LAND:-?.


SSS

Grass is always greener and horns always bigger on the other side of the fence, especially when you are locked out. SUCKS TO BE YOU. I have the key, NICE TO BE ME!:lol:

[Rubicon500]

Carl it never gets old actually. Hereing it from the Captain of the Ethics Police Department im supsried he would stoop that low. A "real hunter" would not hunt behind a locked gate it would not be fair or ethical. I could care less if you enjoy hunting behind a gate makes you look like a less of a hunter with no nuts. Cant handle a little competition so you barricade a road. Your harddddddddddcore! :-P

[bigwhiteys]

Carl it never gets old actually. Hereing it from the Captain of the Ethics Police Department im supsried he would stoop that low. A "real hunter" would not hunt behind a locked gate it would not be fair or ethical. I could care less if you enjoy hunting behind a gate makes you look like a less of a hunter with no nuts. Cant handle a little competition so you barricade a road. Your harddddddddddcore! :razz:

I think Willy has put his time in hunting sheep to be able to make some personal comments regarding his beliefs about hunting them. If you don't like them well... Sorry I guess?

As for barricading the road, it's a gate, with a key... Several actually and the landowner will loan one to anyone with the "balls" to go and ask.

Carl

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Landowner has a key for anyone with balls enough to ask for one?? I guess you must be referring to the "Queen" since the gate "I" was referring to is on "Crown" Land???

I had permission to hunt private property "once"....I hunted it "once" and couldn't wait to get back on crown land. I guess the grass IS always greener on the other side.

You can keep it Willy.

I don't need it.

I do quite fine on public land:smile:.

Sometimes it does suck to be me but most of the time it doesn't:p.

I can live with that.

SSS

[daycort]

I got the video in question. This is what happens when hunting with big bucked americans that say they can shoot, but I liked the video no edits or rehersed lines it is as it happens. I am sure every guy that has guided for any amount of time has had a hunter make a bad shot on a game animal regardless of the guide making sure the rifle and hunter can shoot off a picnic bench at base camp after landing.

As for the helicopter, if they truely do wait for a full nite after landing before hunting well.......its a personal opinion for everyone on this one.

[whitetailsheds]

"Crown land"? "Gate"? Isn't that what winches are for?

[bigwhiteys]

Landowner has a key for anyone with balls enough to ask for one?? I guess you must be referring to the "Queen" since the gate "I" was referring to is on "Crown" Land???

If you're talking about my Grandparents there was NO gate Brent. If you're talking about where we deer hunt it's private land, actually gated by an oil company with business interests on the land. Yes the landowner has the keys.

Carl

[Rubicon500]

No need to be sorry Carl, I could care less on his beliefs just find it funny that the person who says "sheep hunters dont use helicopters" hunts behind a locked gate. I happen to carry my "balls" around in a wheel barrel cuz they are quite large and I would ask for a key if I wanted to be " less of a hunter " but thats agaisnt my ethics. No offense to people that hunt PVT land or Crown land with a gate

[bigwhiteys]

I could care less on his beliefs

I am pretty sure it's mutual.

Carl

[daycort]

just to let some people know that some of the private land I am allowed to hunt is just as remote and grown as most of the crown land in the area, and it is a big area. It is the best of both worlds no people and lots of wild country to hunt.

[willy442]

No need to be sorry Carl, I could care less on his beliefs just find it funny that the person who says "sheep hunters dont use helicopters" hunts behind a locked gate. I happen to carry my "balls" around in a wheel barrel cuz they are quite large and I would ask for a key if I wanted to be " less of a hunter " but thats agaisnt my ethics. No offense to people that hunt PVT land or Crown land with a gate

Rubicon; Just to let you know, I have spent more time hunting remote areas then you will hunt in your life time. When I first started, a Stone Sheep hunt was a minimum pack trip of thirty days with 30 to 35 head of horses. So the last thing I'm concerned about is some young punk questioning my hunting. Also the fenced land that I hunt with my son and his friends, happens to be about 8 square miles of raw land and river breaks as rough as anywhere you hunt. Granted there are a couple of Alfalfa fields that provide excellent hunting also. As for the gate that your friend keeps refering to, like you he has no clue what he is talking about and is dealing from some BULLSHIT story he heard at one time. The road into our old hunting country was blocked legally by permit only after repeated break ins and theft of our Rifles, Equipment and Supplies in our absence in the winter months from our main lodge, so sorry if some of our fellow residents created a situation that caused either you or SSS any hardship. From May to the end of October every year the road was open and access was available through our ranch on a trail shown on the maps. Many people used this access over the years, first with 4x4's, then in later years by foot and with horse's due to the old road being over grown with brush. Many times we took our tractor in on this road to assist those who were either stuck or broke down, all of them resident hunters. On more than one occassion I packed out resident hunters who were on foot, giving them a horse to ride and packing thier sheep horns and supplies on my pack horses. So I suggest that maybe you and your friends should actually come up with more than bullshit and hear say to condem any of my past.
Thank You
Bill

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Well Willy, I'm not going to get into a "he said, she said" battle here. If you say those are the facts..then.... well, you said those are the facts.

I just have one question for you......If you did do all those nice things for "us residents"(that you say you did) over all those years, why do you go out of your way to constantly pick fights with everyone here on HBC??

Something's not adding up:?..........

I certainly have never felt the need to go back and delete all of my posts..... for reasons we can only speculate???:confused:

IIRC you said you always welcomed any residents that you ran into while out hunting to share your fire........yet your Father was one of the leading pushes to get Resident hunters on LEH around Muncho.

Treat them good to their faces yet not so good behind their backs:confused:.

Like I said...lots of inconsistancies.

Seems fishy to me......but that's just me and my opinion.

SSS

[willy442]

Well Willy, I'm not going to get into a "he said, she said" battle here. If you say those are the facts..then.... well, you said those are the facts.

I just have one question for you......If you did do all those nice things for "us residents"(that you say you did) over all those years, why do you go out of your way to constantly pick fights with everyone here on HBC??

Something's not adding up:?..........

I certainly have never felt the need to go back and delete all of my posts..... for reasons we can only speculate???:confused:

IIRC you said you always welcomed any residents that you ran into while out hunting to share your fire........yet your Father was one of the leading pushes to get Resident hunters on LEH around Muncho.

Treat them good to their faces yet not so good behind their backs:confused:.

Like I said...lots of inconsistancies.

Seems fishy to me......but that's just me and my opinion.

SSS

Lets put something straight. I also was and still am a supporter of LEH for Stone Sheep in fact I would like to see them become 1 in a life time.
As for the resident hunters I have choosen to be associated with are all.

1. Decent Sportsman that support all hunting and respect all hunters.

2. They don't have to whine and cry about unjust treatment by G/O's because they believe in treating people the way they want to be treated and therefore the old conflict of interest never arises and very often they are helped with knowledge.

3. They show a willingness to work together with the G/O of any given area and recieve the same respect back (it's really not that difficult) instead of starting from a position of conflict.

Now I realize from watching alot of your posts over time. I believe you probably have some of these qualities buried some where. If you were to ever try using them, maybe you wouldn't see all the inconsistencies, you've never experienced, but apparently have heard about.

You seem quite interested in the posts I have deleted. Why, is there some info there you would like to acquire or what? Let me remind you it is people with views such as your self that always leave me questioning how much info I should give out some times. You and I both know people that have repeatedly PM'd me for priviledged information in our old area. It will take some of them many years to learn what I could tell them in 5 minutes. Have a good Sheep Hunt this Fall.:)

[willy442]

Well Willy, I'm not going to get into a "he said, she said" battle here. If you say those are the facts..then.... well, you said those are the facts.

I just have one question for you......If you did do all those nice things for "us residents"(that you say you did) over all those years, why do you go out of your way to constantly pick fights with everyone here on HBC??

Something's not adding up:?..........

I certainly have never felt the need to go back and delete all of my posts..... for reasons we can only speculate???:confused:

IIRC you said you always welcomed any residents that you ran into while out hunting to share your fire........yet your Father was one of the leading pushes to get Resident hunters on LEH around Muncho.

Treat them good to their faces yet not so good behind their backs:confused:.

Like I said...lots of inconsistancies.

Seems fishy to me......but that's just me and my opinion.

SSS

Guess you've never noticed but its usually always the same people that I disagree with not every one. For the most part none fit into the description of hunters I prefer to be around from my prior post.:roll:

[Stone Sheep Steve]

Guess you've never noticed but its usually always the same people that I disagree with not every one. For the most part none fit into the description of hunters I prefer to be around from my prior post.:roll:

Fair enough Willy.

Just remember not to be too hard on GG. With guys like him around, your grandchildren may have a future in hunting in this beautiful province of OURS......and not have to pay for it.


SSS

[Elkhound]

I have been asked to close this as it has taken it's course.