Should minimum draw weights be changed?

[Gateholio]

On another thread, horshur expressed frustration at minimum weight for bow hunting is 40#. Some youth cannot manage that.

Should that law be changed?

For big game or just for small game?

[mark]

Of course it should be, but just for small game!!!!! It would be unethical to try to take large game when underpowered! That would be like saying any gun over a .22 has to much recoil, but I want to shoot a moose????

[greybark]

:wink: Hey GH and Horsur , I admit to bowhunting for a lot of years and never thought of the junior bowhunter and the 40 lb regulation . I am glad this has finaly come to light .
I think the UBBC is the organization to handle this and I have given them a "heads up" ....
I suggest the 40 lb bow weight limit be done away with for junior bowhunters when hunting small game .
Cheers

[todbartell]

even though I do not bowhunt, I do realize that the 40 lb pull minimum is silly for hunting small game. I am all for elimination of this silly regulation for small game only

[horshur]

:wink: Hey GH and Horsur , I admit to bowhunting for a lot of years and never thought of the junior bowhunter and the 40 lb regulation . I am glad this has finaly come to light .
I think the UBBC is the organization to handle this and I have given them a "heads up" ....
I suggest the 40 lb bow weight limit be done away with for junior bowhunters when hunting small game .
Cheers

Sounds good to me...

[Gateholio]

The BCWF convention is coming up, probably too late to get a resolution in via regional and then listed at convention, but you never know.

[kloosterboer]

For sure!!!!!

[stickbow]

:wink:
I suggest the 40 lb bow weight limit be done away with for junior bowhunters when hunting small game .
Cheers
I'll second that

[Tinney]

Horshur, the problem I see with 20lb bows is that they don't have enough jam to kill a grouse cleanly.

[Elkhound]

would be nice if this could get changed.

[Gateholio]

Tinnwy are you joking? I used ot have a 25# recurve, it could easily kill a grouse.:eek:

[Tinney]

We're talking 5-10lbs here Gate. Err on the side of caution. Realistically, one should do away with the requirement altogether and let the shooter decide? I don't see very many grouse getting killed with 20# bows. I've watched an arrow from a 45# bow bounce off a grouse @ 30m.

[Gateholio]

I'll let the guys who bow hunt come up with the answer- I can't see it taking much to kill a grouse, but I'm no expert.;)

[boxhitch]

Tinney, Your kidding, right ? Normal Grouse have been killed with throwing blunt sticks and rocks, slings and slingshots with various projectiles, target arrows from willow toy bows, even a Titleist from a 2 iron (don't ask).
And now you want to get into the ethicalness of a 20# bow ??


Realistically, one should do away with the requirement altogether and let the shooter decide?
Best suggestion

[Elkhound]

I've watched an arrow from a 45# bow bounce off a grouse @ 30m.

exactly why I bought the .444:roll:

[Bow Walker]

FWIW, I think that 20bs for small game would be alright, providing said junior hunters are acompanied by an adult who has some sense of ethics regarding the slaying of aforementioned small game. That should do away with arrows bouncing off the wily grouse who wears body armour.

It's all a matter of how close can you get to your intended dinner before you release the pussy 20lb bow shot.....

[lip_ripper00]

[quote=horshur;263425]20 pounds....a ten year old girl can pull that with confidence.


Cool, mabye I can start to bow hunt:-)

[Onesock]

Obviously the junior would have to be with an adult. Let the adult decide whether the shot should be taken. Also small game only. I don't think the small game population in BC will be in trouble.

[Archer]

For small game, I think 20 lbs may be too light. My stepson just got his first gopher with his bow the other day, and even at 32 lbs, I don't think he broke the skin, even though it was about an eight yard shot (with a judo point, mind you). Stunned it more than anything. IMHO 30 lbs could probably bag small game efficently for the most part, but 20 might just give a grouse a good chuckle as he flies away.

[sealevel]

I've watched an arrow from a 45# bow bounce off a grouse @ 30m.

And we all believe that.:roll: A 20lb bow with in 10 yds with a blunt is more then enough to kill a grouse .

[Blk Arrow]

A 20lb bow with in 10 yds with a blunt is more then enough to kill a grouse .

Apparently most archers on this site are not aware that todays grouse are much tougher and hard to kill than grouse of the past. We should all be shooting magnum bows.;)

[tomahawk]

40 lbs across the board for all game IMHO

[sealevel]

You try it, and get back to me! Maybe you're used to 'hunting' them little dumb spruce grouse with 12ga shotguns in the ditch, but when you try to bowhunt big ruffies up here, you see all kinds of crazy things!
I`ve been shooting ruffs up there since long before you were born .

[willyqbc]

There can be such a huge variation when dealing with youngsters and light poundage as far as what kind of energy is being generated. Is it a compound or recurve, what is the draw length?, what is the arrow weight? etc. Perhaps a minimum Kinetic energy would be more appropriate for the kids and small game. Let look at my youngster for instance, he is 8 and shoots 22" draw on a compound set for 24 lbs his 220 grain arrow comes off at 192 FPS for a KE of 18 foot pounds....certainly enough to kill a grouse, particularly if we were to attach one of the serrated small game collars under the feild point.
.....and yes he could easily hit a grouse at 20 yards:lol:

I would love to see some allowances made to help get the kids into bowhunting on the small game, if the will is there to do this a reasonable and responsible set of criteria can easdily be created.

Chris

[J_T]

For me, if it's about youth and recruitment, or just having a good day, just let the kids fling. With whatever.

I've sometimes had a hard time killing a blue grouse with a 65 pound bow. My rule of thumb, it has to be head shots to guarantee a grouse kill.

The point in all of this though, is there is a law (not sure if it is ever enforced so do we really need to worry?) that is preventing some young people from using a bow, to enjoy some outdoor time, that may at some point, contribute to them becoming a hunter.

Put a bow in your kids hands, let them fling with a blunt at everything. Pretty rocks, stumps, leaves dangling off a tree, squirrels, grouse.

Just get them out and have a good day. Enjoy a fire and some quality time. And let them have a weapon in hand. It will teach them to be in control of that weapon. They will feel proud, like Dad/Mom....

It's up to the mentor/parent to ensure a good time, as well as a safe time.

Perhaps a little leeway in the law.

[Bow Walker]

I agree that there are just too many variables to arbitrarily lower the minimum draw weight for any kind of game - large or small.

The risk of only injuring the squirrel, grouse, gopher, or whatever is too great. I'd like to believe that a quick, clean kill is the desired result when hunting small game.

[sealevel]

I agree that there are just too many variables to arbitrarily lower the minimum draw weight for any kind of game - large or small.

The risk of only injuring the squirrel, grouse, gopher, or whatever is too great. I'd like to believe that a quick, clean kill is the desired result when hunting small game. this seems to be a magnum atatude . More power isn`t going to kill a chicken any better. Its what you have on the tip of you arrow. An old bloadhead or better a big rubber blunt or a grass hopper or even a washer or bottle cap.

[horshur]

this seems to be a magnum atatude . More power isn`t going to kill a chicken any better. Its what you have on the tip of you arrow. An old bloadhead or better a big rubber blunt or a grass hopper or even a washer or bottle cap.

30-30 shell shoved on the end.

[GoatGuy]

this seems to be a magnum atatude . More power isn`t going to kill a chicken any better. Its what you have on the tip of you arrow. An old bloadhead or better a big rubber blunt or a grass hopper or even a washer or bottle cap.

I would tend to agree with this.

[stickbow]

For me, if it's about youth and recruitment, or just having a good day, just let the kids fling. With whatever.

I've sometimes had a hard time killing a blue grouse with a 65 pound bow. My rule of thumb, it has to be head shots to guarantee a grouse kill.

The point in all of this though, is there is a law (not sure if it is ever enforced so do we really need to worry?) that is preventing some young people from using a bow, to enjoy some outdoor time, that may at some point, contribute to them becoming a hunter.

Put a bow in your kids hands, let them fling with a blunt at everything. Pretty rocks, stumps, leaves dangling off a tree, squirrels, grouse.

Just get them out and have a good day. Enjoy a fire and some quality time. And let them have a weapon in hand. It will teach them to be in control of that weapon. They will feel proud, like Dad/Mom....

It's up to the mentor/parent to ensure a good time, as well as a safe time.

Perhaps a little leeway in the law.
This is exactly what we were talking about,until the thread started to slide sideways on the effiencency of archery tackle.

[horshur]

I agree that there are just too many variables to arbitrarily lower the minimum draw weight for any kind of game - large or small.

The risk of only injuring the squirrel, grouse, gopher, or whatever is too great. I'd like to believe that a quick, clean kill is the desired result when hunting small game.

So there is the rub and probably why the rule is there to begin with.....you want kid's to dance before they can run.
God put small game on earth so kid's can learn.....not to fulfil some Walden fantasy.

Very long time ago up in the christian valley. two want to be Indians with glass laminate recurve bows of about 25 pounds and a long weekend free of school to use them.
Nothing was legally open it was spring but squirrels and chipmunks and gophers were regularly lined up and shot at.....three day's worth of shooting and nothin had been hurt yet.
Eventually the two Indians had a chipmunk cornered the dog was helping out digging like mad old chip made a move the bow came up and an arrow was let loose and chip was hit!!!!! The little Indian started crying.........
To deny our children the chance to learn a lesson like that....I think we will stand in judgement. The reality of what happened was clear...those Indians understood the absoluteness of death better than the teacher at school who bought wrapped beef from the supermarket!.
A very small price to pay for such a huge lesson!!!! Chip died a noble and purposeful death. (and the dog got a meal).
Were are cutting our children legs off at the knee. They will never learn to run cause we won't let them walk.

Let the kids hunt.....

[Stone Sheep Steve]

So there is the rub and probably why the rule is there to begin with.....you want kid's to dance before they can run.
God put small game on earth so kid's can learn.....not to fulfil some Walden fantasy.

Very long time ago up in the christian valley. two want to be Indians with glass laminate recurve bows of about 25 pounds and a long weekend free of school to use them.
Nothing was legally open it was spring but squirrels and chipmunks and gophers were regularly lined up and shot at.....three day's worth of shooting and nothin had been hurt yet.
Eventually the two Indians had a chipmunk cornered the dog was helping out digging like mad old chip made a move the bow came up and an arrow was let loose and chip was hit!!!!! The little Indian started crying.........
To deny our children the chance to learn a lesson like that....I think we will stand in judgement. The reality of what happened was clear...those Indians understood the absoluteness of death better than the teacher at school who bought wrapped beef from the supermarket!.
A very small price to pay for such a huge lesson!!!! Chip died a noble and purposeful death. (and the dog got a meal).
Were are cutting our children legs off at the knee. They will never learn to run cause we won't let them walk.

Let the kids hunt.....

Reminds me of a strong memory from my childhood involving homemade slingshots and a poor robin on a telephone pole. How were we supposed to know that we could actually hit something:sad:?

SSS

[Bowzone_Mikey]

ok ... I read the first 2 pages of this thread ... I have come up with 2 conclutions ...#1 ... Tinney likes to write for the sake of seeing his words and likes to get a rise out of ya'll

#2 ... Most people dont understand the new technoology nor even understand the rules in place .... The 40 pound rule was originally put into place for a recurve bow shooting a specific weight arrow(I cant recall the excact weight right now) ... but at the end of the day it boiled down to hitting power

point is: That a 20 pound compound bow with the correct arrow combination will outhit a 40 pound recurve depending on the arrow combination choice. In otherwords the Kinectic energy and momentum factors actually play a part

[J_T]

ok ... I read the first 2 pages of this thread ... I have come up with 2 conclutions ...#1 ... Tinney likes to write for the sake of seeing his words and likes to get a rise out of ya'll

#2 ... Most people dont understand the new technoology nor even understand the rules in place .... The 40 pound rule was originally put into place for a recurve bow shooting a specific weight arrow(I cant recall the excact weight right now) ... but at the end of the day it boiled down to hitting power

point is: That a 20 pound compound bow with the correct arrow combination will outhit a 40 pound recurve depending on the arrow combination choice. In otherwords the Kinectic energy and momentum factors actually play a part
These are valid comments. Well, the part about technology and speed etc. I'm not going to judge comments about others. But we are missing the point.

Let's just get the kids out there. Sacrifice a couple of squirrels and get young people hooked on hunting.

My kids packed their bow from day one. Little red fibreglass when they were 3 to about 5 and a 25 pound recurve after that. They learned to care for their equipment, they understood safety, they paid attention to nature's signs. They shot a ton of arrows at anything and everything and went home with great memories. Never hit or killed anything that was alive but had a lot of fun trying.

[Marc]

OK I did a bit of house cleaning here, don't be offended if your post got deleted if it went off track or involved you know who it got nuked as it wasn't adding or accomplishing anything. I think that this was a good thread and something that may need further discussion. Please carry on .

Marc.

[J_T]

Hey, how about that RCMP roadblock..... :eek::eek:

Just kidding. You're right Marc. It was a good discussion. All of it. Just have to take some of the comments as off topic. It's up to each of us to manage our emotions and our own response.

What is important, is that we find ways to get kids out. Horshur has a classic example of how we can help young person feel a part of the hunt, using a bow, learning skills and done without disturbing it for a rifle hunting parent.

Let em fling.

[Bow Walker]

OK folks - we're back on track. Let's discuss away.

It's a great idea, getting kids out shooting, but don't put the game animals (small or large) at risk of escaping with injuries that are preventable. I mean broken bones, or wounds that are not immediately life threatening.

How will it look if PETA gets even a hint that animals are being wounded or hurt/maimed by hunters (young, old, or anything in between) who are using "sub-ethical" means to do that hunting? Imagine the field day that they would have.

Get the kids out shooting and/or hunting - but do it in a fashion that will have a positive outcome while not doing unnecessary harm to the animals.

I don't believe that lowering the minimum draw weight required to hunt with archery equipment is the answer. I do believe that by lowering the draw eight there is too much of a chance to undermine the already shaky perception of the sport of hunting in general.

[sealevel]

Bowwalker think about it you shoot a bow that will drive an arrow throw a elk lenghwise . Don`t you think a bow a third as strong will drive a arrow 6ins throw a grouse. Put a broadhead throw a grouse is it going to matter witch bow it comes from.

And to hell with peta and all this ethics crap lets kid shoot at grouse tree rats

[houndogger]

Horshur I gave my 5 year old daughters red fiberglass bow a pull tonight. She said it felt like 40# to.

[horshur]

Horshur I gave my 5 year old daughters red fiberglass bow a pull tonight. She said it felt like 40# to.

Dave is that the 8 pounder??? my daughter has one as well as her brother.
Will shoots his as if he is fighting at Agincourt.LOL

[Onesock]

Bow Walker I don't think kids shooting at squirrels is going to put a big damper on hunting in BC. I am all for kids getting out there with their bows and sling shots and going after the grand slam of small game in BC. Who on here didn't shoot squirrels with a sling shot when they were kids? I think the list will be damn short.

[The Hermit]

perhaps if the draw weight is reduced to say 20 - 25 pounds then the requirement of hunting with a broadhead on such gear should be imposed. I am using a 26 pound ChekMate Atilla to practice with and even with a field point it is driving arrows deep into a pretty solid target (My 60pound compound didn't penetrate it at 10 yards) I can't imagine that a broadhead flung from a 25 lb bow wouldn't kill a grouse at 10 - 15 yards.

[J_T]

Keep in mind, if your youth is packing broadheads, there is additional risk.

Just consider a blunt. It can add weight when placed over a 165 gr field tip and this adds to the punch (KE).

BowWalker, I'm a hunter, not a member of PETA. I certainly feel different about throwin arrows at a few small animals.

I did when I was a kid. My first kill was a squirrel.

I'm sure an interesting poll on here would be "what was your first kill?" to find out, squirrels, sparrows, robins are among the top.

Let the kids fling.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

http://www.shopatron.com/img/product_images/182/2444cec55baff844cc6176f54c9f5ace.jpg

This is all you need .. and will do much better job than any blunt out there

[sealevel]

Really mikey thats is no different then a blunt . There`s a bunch of turkey hunters down south that use blunts on turkeys and think they are better then broadheads.

One of the best and cheapest heads for shooting grouse is take a beer cap drill a hole in it and put it behind a field point

[Onesock]

Guys Guys Guys. We are talkin about little Bobby thats 10 years old shooting at birds or squirrels with a bow. who cares what kind of head the arrow has on it. Let them get out there and learn about hunting. As most of us already know bow hunting isn't about the kill, its about hunting.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

well then perhaps I have a differant Idea of what Blunts are ...
To me a blunt is a rubber tube stopper on the end of an arrow like this

http://static.zoovy.com/img/bbrothersc/W180-H180-Bffffff/864.jpg

the post above is a Judo or small game head

[willyqbc]

Guys Guys Guys. We are talkin about little Bobby thats 10 years old shooting at birds or squirrels with a bow. who cares what kind of head the arrow has on it. Let them get out there and learn about hunting. As most of us already know bow hunting isn't about the kill, its about hunting.http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/images/misc/progress.gif

Okay, I'm a little confused by this sentiment. Are you assuming little bobby has almost no chance of actually hitting what he's aiming at so what does it matter what head he uses?? Please clarify.
For me i would love to see it legal for the little ones but i would also make sure that the arrow set-up my kid was using was carrying something that was going to be as effective on grouse as I want my arrows to be on big game. 2 reasons for that......1. My little guy WILL hit most grouse he shoots at so i want him to make good clean kills, and 2. I don't want one of his first lessons to be that it doesn't really matter what "broadhead" he uses. instead i think we would go online and research blunts, judos, bottle caps etc and have him part of the process of choosing his grouse head....much the same way we research and choose our broadheads.

Just My Opinion
Chris

[Bow Walker]

Bowwalker think about it you shoot a bow that will drive an arrow throw a elk lenghwise . Don`t you think a bow a third as strong will drive a arrow 6ins throw a grouse. Put a broadhead throw a grouse is it going to matter witch bow it comes from.

And to hell with peta and all this ethics crap lets kid shoot at grouse tree rats
As Onesock put it...

Guys Guys Guys. We are talkin about little Bobby thats 10 years old shooting at birds or squirrels with a bow
...yes we're talking about kids here, that means 12 years and under (to me), I would be very very careful about putting a broadhead on an arrow an letting the kids go hunting. My comment(s) were made with the idea of kids shooting (hunting) arrows with blunts on them - as pictured by BZM.


Bow Walker I don't think kids shooting at squirrels is going to put a big damper on hunting in BC. I am all for kids getting out there with their bows and sling shots and going after the grand slam of small game in BC. Who on here didn't shoot squirrels with a sling shot when they were kids? I think the list will be damn short.

PETA? To hell with them? Ignoring them won't make them go away. They have already had an impact on hunting - in BC and all across North America. Ignoring them just adds to the problem, while enabling them.


Keep in mind, if your youth is packing broadheads, there is additional risk.

Just consider a blunt. It can add weight when placed over a 165 gr field tip and this adds to the punch (KE).

BowWalker, I'm a hunter, not a member of PETA. I certainly feel different about throwin arrows at a few small animals.

I did when I was a kid. My first kill was a squirrel.

I'm sure an interesting poll on here would be "what was your first kill?" to find out, squirrels, sparrows, robins are among the top.

Let the kids fling.


Guys Guys Guys. We are talkin about little Bobby thats 10 years old shooting at birds or squirrels with a bow. who cares what kind of head the arrow has on it. Let them get out there and learn about hunting. As most of us already know bow hunting isn't about the kill, its about hunting.

I'm all for kids hunting with archery equipment - all types and styles of archery equipment - providing that there is proper supervision throughout the little guy's hunt. Safety, ethics, and conservation are all "soaked up" from the mentor figure, the dad, the brother, the uncle, or any oerson that is teaching the fine art of hunting. Kids are very impressionable in that age group...as young as 5 and as old as pre-teens.

Teach them right, teach them safety above all else, show them how to do it properly and with the right amount of respect for the quarry, and then turn them loose.

[J_T]

Chris, those are good points. Each of us has our own example we draw from, and perspective.

I think for the most part, it is up to the parent/mentor to make those types of decisions. The point is, know what you are doing, know what your objective is with the youngster, know the younster's abilities and simply get them out there.

My kids shot recurves. When they became skilled enough to get close, have a chance at success, I adjusted my perspective on what head to use. For the most part, when they were young, we shot everything. Rocks, trees with marks on them, branches etc. A blunt preserved the arrow.

A blunt, bouncing off the head of a grouse is as effective or more, that most other heads. IMHO. Perhaps different gear, shooting different speeds is different.

[Gateholio]

At the risk of being labeled a lawbreaker, when we were kids, we used my 25# recurve with target points to skewer a few grouse. Grouse started flapping around witht he arrow in various stages of penetration. We woudl run up, and wring the birds neck.

Undignified maybe, but we were hungry...;-)

I think there is a simple solution to this, that is getting bogged down with ft/lbs and energy transfer calculations.8-)

[Bow Walker]

Mikey - did you get those pics from the Heartland site? I searched all through and couldn't find anything on either blunts or judos. All I could see was Montec's SGH.

Do you have a different site to view than the rest of the "great unwashed"?

[Bow Walker]

Yeah - I imagine most of us were "lawbreakers" way back when...

I used my fiberglass 24# bow to pin a nice big redheaded wood pecker to a tree one time. I didn't know (or even think about) any of the legalities involved. I was just caught up in the thrill of the chase.

[Bowzone_Mikey]

Mikey - did you get those pics from the Heartland site? I searched all through and couldn't find anything on either blunts or judos. All I could see was Montec's SGH.

Do you have a different site to view than the rest of the "great unwashed"?


One came from Muzzy, the blunt came from from outfit in the states

I never thought about putting up the zwicky judo point ...
http://www.archeryshop.com.au/pictures/157/1/80401-1.jpg

[GoatGuy]

You can kill grouse with rocks, pellet guns, sticks, what have you. I don't think a 20lbs bow should be an issue.

My first bow was a custom made 30 lbs recurve from sask - there's no doubt you could put the hurt on most animals with that thing. It certainly did a better number on the squirrels than the pellet gun ever did.

[Onesock]

Willyq- I am sure your son will hit what he aims at which comes from all the mentoring and teaching you have done with him. I would expect that you would have taught him about the proper head selection for his arrows also.
What I am talking about is the majority of kids. I would doubt the vast majority of kids have the latest up to date compound that your son is shooting. I would expect most 10 year old have a red fiber glass bow with a few wood arrows. It is most important these kids learn about the out doors and hunting.
From what I have heard about your son he wins most 3-D shoots in his age group. This is not the "average " kid.
Lets not mar this hunting thing for the kids with too many regulations.
Bow Walker-- you are right- The hell with PETA. I don't think they give a shit about some kid with his red fiberglass bow.
I am quite sure that if a father takes his son/daughter hunting with a bow they will make sure the kids have the appropriate equipment for the game being hunted.
Once again lets not bog this down with regulations.

[The Hermit]

So it would seem that most people hear would like to see a reduction of the legal draw weight for small game down to 20 pounds and some think even less.

[Clint_S]

Put a bow in your kids hands, let them fling with a blunt at everything. Pretty rocks, stumps, leaves dangling off a tree, squirrels, grouse.

Perhaps a little leeway in the law.

Jim I am aghast :eek:

For folks who want to operate within the law this could all be solved with a simple one line addition to the regs. "or for small game any bow shooting an arrow having a min. ??? ft/lbs. kinetic energy"
Any google search will find you a KE calculator

[Onesock]

Clint- as if you never hunted with a home made bow when you were a kid. Yea right. Shit, last time we hunted together you were still using it. LOL

[J_T]

Clint, wasn't your first kill a sparrow (or was that a spotted owl) with a Daisy rifle?
:)
We can change the law/regs, I'm all for that and have started that process, but at the pace change occurs now, it won't be in place until the 2010 season.

[Gateholio]

Another option to get a kid out hunting is a crossbow, if they can manage the weight. Dad coudl cock and load it, and hand it to Junior, and junior just needs to aim at grouse and shoot.:smile:

[Johnnybear]

Another option to get a kid out hunting is a crossbow, if they can manage the weight. Dad coudl cock and load it, and hand it to Junior, and junior just needs to aim at grouse and shoot.:smile:

Are you stirring:smile:?

My son (just turned 11) shoots a 25# recurve (used to shoot a 20# fiberglass) and I take him out stump shooting with me. He is still working on consistant accurracy but that has to do with him. The poundage has to do with this as well (until he builds up to it). I would like to see the poundage lowered for small game (to be described in the regulations) for youth archers. I don't have a lot of experience shooting grouse with a bow but I can't believe you wouldn't get the job done with a 15-25# bow within 15 yards. Another tip to consider is the Ace Hex head for small game.